bincancel:4 large binaries:AR132:@@NCM

Binary posts do not belong in unmoderated discussion groups. I have issued 4 cancels for large binary files (average size 299,842 characters - total size 1,199,371 characters) posted to 4 different unmoderated discussion groups in the rec hierarchy as follows: 1 rec.travel.marketplace 1 rec.games.video.arcade.collecting 1 rec.autos.simulators 1 rec.arts.sf.science This pointer is being posted to each affected group. Each of the groups listed above is an affected group, meaning that at least one binary file was canceled from that group. If you want to see exactly which file that was or the criteria that I used to select it, read the full report in the newsgroup news.admin.net-abuse.announce. The full report is the parent article to this message, and has the same subject. It has been cross-posted to alt.nocem.misc and alt.retromod. There has been a long-standing consensus among news administrators that binaries belong in binaries newsgroups, and not elsewhere. There also seems to be a consensus supporting the cancellation of large binaries in discussion groups as long as appropriate protocols are followed. In my opinion, the best way to distribute binary files is via ftp or the web. With the ready availablity of ftpmail servers, even uucp sites can retrieve binaries from ftp sites. However, if you really must post a binary to Usenet, please post it to an appropriate binaries newsgroup such as alt.binaries.misc. Then, if you like, post something in the appropriate discussion group telling people where to find the binary in the binaries group (a pointer to the binary). This will permit news administrators and users to decide for themselves whether to receive the binary files. Please direct public feedback to news.admin.net-abuse.misc and private unmoderated binaries group in the hierarchies that I scan, I don't know about it yet. Feel free to enlighten me. Best wishes, *** -- It's over, and can't be helped, and that's one consolation, as they always say in Turkey, when they cut the wrong man's head off'' -- Charles***ens

>Date: Mon, 12 Feb 1996 01:26:32 GMT >Keywords: ARMM9 >Binary posts do not belong in unmoderated discussion groups. (stuff deleted about his cancelbot doing everybody a favor) Thanks buddy. Do me a favor - don't do me any more favors. I would rather see arcade related stuff here than in some bin newsgroup which is just a hideout for hacked accounts and warez that turns over DAILY! Sounds like this guy would be in favor of the "net-***" bill. I think this guy has too much free time. (rant'n rave mode off) And I was going to grab the Food Fight stuff tonight...sniff... Could somebody email me a copy? Pul-leeze? Virtu-Al

Dick Depew was on the Usenet before you had any idea that such a network could possibly exist. ARMM has been an institution on Usenet for many years now. Let me explain HOW he's doing everyone -- including yourself -- a favor. First, when (by way of technical mishap or personal malice) a flood of identical articles begin flooding into the newsgroups, he issues a notice that such an event has occured, so that (1) it doesn't have to be propigated all over the world and (2) you and I don't have to wade through all the ***that's produced. Second, when binaries are posted to non-binary newsgroups, there are several problems that may ensue. Some service providers don't have the storage space to store binaries in their news spool. Of course, they don't carry any of the *.binary.* newsgroups; however, if binaries start showing up in non-binary newsgroups, they will stop carrying those groups. *WHUMP*. You've just prevented a bunch of people from accessing your newsgroup. You lose information. And, if you'd be willing to look at it without being very selfish, you'd see that you've pissed them off. Furthermore, many readers (especially in European countries) use off-line news readers (since, as you may be aware, all phone service, including local service, is billed by the minute). When binaries (which tend to be large files) are posted to non-binary newsgroups, you will often cause these readers to download files ranging from 200k to 1M on the average; you are costing these readers -- end users, like yourself -- time and money; you're wasting someone else's time and money to download a file they don't even want. What*** Depew is doing is *not* censorship. Quite to the contrary; he does the bare minimum necessary to keep Usenet flowing. If he didn't, broken gateways, spammers, and random binaries would make it unusable -- which would effectively censor the whole medium. -- No problem is so formidable that you can't just walk away from it.

: >Binary posts do not belong in unmoderated discussion groups. : (stuff deleted about his cancelbot doing everybody a favor) : Thanks buddy. Do me a favor - don't do me any more favors. I would rather : see arcade related stuff here than in some bin newsgroup which is just a : hideout for hacked accounts and warez that turns over DAILY! [snipped] Actually we have our own binary newsgroup devoted to autos.simulators check out alt.binaries.simulators.autos -- **************************** Michael E. Carver ************************* Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./. [- < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

Well, I hope he does continue deleting the damn stuff. It's okay for you folks in Uni with your optical several hundred gigabytes per second link up - binaries are downloaded or skipped no problem. When you are PAYING to download this stuff then it's nice to get ALL the messages from this group (which I want to read) and just the headers from binaries so I can pick them up later if I want 'em, You're not the only one using this ya know! Cheers! John _________________________________ __ _____| |_____ __ _________| |__| :| John Wallace | |__| |_________ \ :| |::| :| Team WW Racing TSW | |::| | / > :| |::| :|_________________________________| |::| | < / :|__|::|____:/ -=Ayrton Senna=- \.____|::|__| \ /_______:/ \::/ Racing is in my ***, it's part of me \::/ \._______\

I've been checking it out every day for the last 2 or 3 weeks and there has not been a single posting (other that the odd spam). Is this group ever used? -- Gary Beeton - SED Systems Inc. --

>Dick Depew was on the Usenet before you had any idea that such a network >could possibly exist. ARMM has been an institution on Usenet for many years >now. So that makes him GOD, give me a f*cking break! This makes him a boyscout, no more, no less..... but GOD? BTW, he seems quite selective about the groups he chooses to "protect". But I guess the poor fellow has to sleep sometime. Afterall, SAVING the Internet from itself is tiring work. Gee, disk drives are pretty cheap these days..... I'd consider getting a better ISP. As far as I'm concerned, you're wasting bandwith if you actually read news while ONLINE. But I guess if your a NET GOD, thats okay. Step into the 90's, will ya? I download ALL headers in subscribed groups, and all bodies that are 100 lines or less, and NEVER miss a message I want. You should consider an upgrade to a decent newsreader. If it ain't censorship, then perhaps you can come up with a new term and send if off to Websters for the benefit of all mankind. You didn't happen to have a hand in the "U.S. Telecom Reform", did ya? P.S. Perhaps EagleScout*** "McCarthy" Depew could give you a few pointers, like "Thou shall not crosspost!" >-- > No problem is so formidable that you can't just walk away from it. Flames >NIL: Your friend (Who does NOT cancel other's POSTS), William Leventry ----

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> >Thanks buddy. Do me a favor - don't do me any more favors. I would rather > >see arcade related stuff here than in some bin newsgroup which is just a > >hideout for hacked accounts and warez that turns over DAILY! > Well, I hope he does continue deleting the damn stuff. It's okay for you > folks in Uni with your optical several hundred gigabytes per second link > up - binaries are downloaded or skipped no problem. > When you are PAYING to download this stuff then it's nice to get ALL the > messages from this group (which I want to read) and just the headers > from binaries so I can pick them up later if I want 'em, > You're not the only one using this ya know!

I hope to see more binaries in RGVAC! The net WILL grow despite those people who are determined to keep it from happening. RGVAC related binaries SHOULD GO into RGVAC, in my opinion. Some may shoot back with "we don't care about YOUR opinion, lamer", but I have the same voice as anyone else on this issue and therefore that argument is not valid. Like Al McCormick said, we shouldn't have to go looking around in some obscure BIN newsgroup that are wildly erratic hacker zones and such just because some people can't handle the feed, pay for their downloads, etc.. your system must also grow to fit the times, people. If you can't handle the feed than its your problem to find a way around it. Limiting data because it is deemed "binary" is not the way to do it. If the binaries were spread out to cover their respective groups (as they should be) then there would be little problem because, atleast in the case of rec.games.video.arcade.collecting (RGVAC), we get maybe 1 or 2 binaries a month, which is beans to any kind of feed, even when you're paying for it per byte. Sending out 'cancelbots' or whatever you call those virus-like automations is, in itself, bad form, in my opinion because they are an active mechanism that destroys the propigation of data that someone else put into place, without regard to the content. This smacks of computer-like, mechanized thinking that allows no room for reason or exception, which (again, in my opinion) is incompatible with the internet as a concept. I'm sorry, but I thought NO ONE 'ran' the internet, and so for some yo-yo to decide on his own what's right and wrong, and act on that decision with 'cancelbots' is a little out-of-bounds. I realize that I'll probably get plenty of FLAME mail as a result of these opinions, but they are, nevertheless, mine. So send 'em on and I'll get 'em over to /dev/null ASAP. Thanks Kevin * Oh yes.. My opinions in no way reflect the collective opinion of RGVAC .. They are my own, dammit! MINE MINE MINE *

: Sending out 'cancelbots' Hmm... how about a new game... "Cancelbot Killers" I'm all for binaries in our group (rec.games.video.arcade.collecting - since this is crossposted). As was mentioned before, there are relatively few, and it can be somewhat difficult to get them out of the other binary group (alt.binaries.pictures.misc). I was only able to get a few of them that were posted there a few weeks ago. For people who read offline, I just started to use Free Agent, and it has an option that will completely ignore a file over XXX bytes. That lets you easily skip those. Not only that, but if all binaries are labeled as "BIN:Crazy Climber Instructions" then you can tell your newsreader to ignore all headers starting with BIN*. It's only my opinion, but I don't think that many people are paying by the minute on a relative scale. I see a *few* AOL, compusuck, and fraudidgy accounts (yes I understand that not every little town has a provider). So I'm not really sure why the minority should get their way. Well, actually, I suppose that's the American way- but that's another topic. By the way, what do you guys pay per minute? A 100K image takes less than a minute to d/l over a 14.4 modem, so even if you spend an extra minute, so what? Maybe there's a maximum of 5 images a month. As long as the people posting them do a little work, and use some color reduction, resizing, and a little compression, all images should be under a 100K. I thought that the 300K images that were posted here (and started all this) were MUCH bigger than necessary. I downsized them myself with very little loss is quality before saving them in my colletion. Rant mode off. Michael.

Just because you are able to SAY something, doesn't make it correct - and just because no-one is supposed to run the 'net doesn't mean we should descend to anarchy. Self-policing is what we are talking about. If you are unprepared to consider the problems of others and only look out for yourself, then why not go off and play with your Sega until you're grown-up enough to use a PC and co-exist with others. I mean come on, how DIFFICULT can it be to click on another group?! If that avoids me having to pay for a one hour 'phone bill for downloading some demo which I already have (happened several times) then surely it's a small concession? Not all countries have such cheap 'phone costs as the US and not everyone has fast access. No-one's trying to stop the net growing, I'm just hoping to start some of its users considering other people. John _________________________________ __ _____| |_____ __ _________| |__| :| John Wallace | |__| |_________ \ :| |::| :| Team WW Racing TSW | |::| | / > :| |::| :|_________________________________| |::| | < / :|__|::|____:/ -=Ayrton Senna=- \.____|::|__| \ /_______:/ \::/ Racing is in my ***, it's part of me \::/ \._______\

Sorry, but having been on the other side of the fence before, I'm going to say: PLEASE *DON'T* POST BINARIES TO NON-BINARY GROUPS! For those of us with good providers (including me nowadays), it's no fuss no muss. But the reality is that there are plenty of smaller providers that will drop a group like a hot potato if they see binaries on it because they don't have the resources to download it and store it. There are also people who pay by the byte/minute and some don't have the choice to change that (like in Europe). Who said anything about keeping the net from growing? In my opinion, they shoudn't. See above for why. Well, true, you are a lamer. But not because of this opinion. ;^) And last I checked, your voice only counted for 33% of a vote. :^o And posting something big that will get propogated to a million nodes around the world in the wrong/non-binary group when only 5 people are interested is not the way to do it either. (OK. So I'm being a little extreme in my example) How quickly that would change... OK. Maybe how quickly I've seen it change in some other groups. Maybe RGVAC wouldn't. I thought they only killed SPAMs in which case I'm happy they're out there as I'm sure someone in alt.bikini.wax doesn't want a videogame binary just as much as we don't want an image with a bikini in it! ;^) As far as these posts that were killed, the only reason they were killed was cross-posting to non-binary groups. There are no official rules but there is generally accepted netiquette and I have yet to find anything about it that I find objectionable once I've found out WHY a particular rule/law/convention is followed. YMMV. No flames, but `You'll get...The Arena! Ha ha ha ha!' Oops! I mean you'll get my opinion. The Wizard of Wor seems to have jumped into the middle of the conversation. -- # Bite the bolt worrior. Ha ha ha ha! # # - The Wizard in the arcade game `Wizard of Wor' #

Some people PAY for every single byte of data they receive in this newsgroup and they do NOT have a choice of which articles they pay or not. Binaries are tens of times larger than a normal article and hence cost some people quite considerably. Not to mention that they take lots of HD space, which unlike hardware manufacturers want you to believe is not infinite. Yeah,***the losers, they are lame anyway. Probably communists too, let's go get them! -TPP

JW> If you are unprepared to consider the problems of others and only JW> look out for yourself, then why not go off and play with your Sega Harsh.....but fair. JW> I mean come on, how DIFFICULT can it be to click on another group?! JW> If that avoids me having to pay for a one hour 'phone bill for JW> downloading some demo which I already have (happened several times) JW> then surely it's a small concession? Not all countries have such JW> cheap 'phone costs as the US and not everyone has fast access. JW> No-one's trying to stop the net growing, I'm just hoping to start JW> some of its users considering other people. Well said! Cheers! --- * RM 1.3 U0414 * Back up my hard drive? Where's the reverse gear?

> >I > >have the same voice as anyone else on this issue and therefore that argument is > >not > >valid. > Just because you are able to SAY something, doesn't make it correct - Duhh.. didn't saiy it did. There is no CORRECT or INCORRECT position on this issue, John. There is only your opinion and my opinion and everyone else's opinions. I suppose the most popular opinion will prevail. What anarchy? How does allowing a newsgroup that I read to have the occasional binary that is typically less than 40K equate to anarchy? It would take your provider very little time to get files of this size and it really shouldn't take YOU long at all to download a measly 40K. And that's assuming it happened every day. But as long as I have used RGVAC, I have seen maybe 5 or 10 binaries posted. Boy, that's sure a threat to your precious, fragile usenet conventions! I knew it would come to this. The insults. John, I'm sorry you can't handle a reasonable level-headed discussion on this topic. Truth is, I do not own a SEGA, and probably never will. I am, however, an administrator for a local service provider who, by the way, charges a flat $20/month for access. Maybe your provider (or however you get your internet) should get in touch and catch up with the rest of us. I'm around PC's all day and I co-exist well with others (always have). I am simply stating that the idea of restricting growth on the internet just to help some poor-boy provider gouge his customers is not the way to do it. And, more directly, sending out cancel bots to destroy data that others have posted is WRONG WRONG WRONG. Its a malicious attack, plain and simple. Your hero who makes it his business to destroy other people's data on a regular basis it no better than the stereotypical 'hacker' -- a regualar RTM. Of course, RTM did it without malice. This guy KNOWS what he's doing. Seriously, the insults are a little lame, John. VERY! Especially when the groups are regularly overran by warezzzzz pirates and what have you. Sorting through all the ***to find my simple, modest < 20K file is prohibitively difficult. If there are ones too poor to pay for a few thousand K of more data over the span of a month, then why isn't it left up to THEM to install software to weed out the undesirable data? There's plenty of it out there that can look for common characteristics in netnews posts. ( "begin 644", etc.) In my view, its wrong to slow everyone else down to such a degree so the small percent of people we are talking about can play catch-up. Of course, if you're using AOL or COmpuserve, or something else equally as commercial, then that's YOUR PROBLEM. The internet ran JUST FINE before Compuserve and AOL jumped aboard bringing in the 'typical consumer' with their typical comsumer-like problems. What in GOD's name are you downloading LONG DISTANCE for, anyway?? I agree that you are not actively trying to keep the net from growing, but nevertheless, your advocacy of segrigating the data and destroying the 'stray' data amounts to exactly that. Think about it. Your hero up there who sends out the cancel bots has no idea what the data contains and doesn't really seem to care. He only goes by some half-thought-out decree that all binaires outside of 'special' binary groups should be hunted down and destroyed, period. This is actively LIMITING GROWTH. It is unreasonable to expect a user such as me to go into one of those binary groups and weed through all the ***to find my little < 40K picture of a classic arcade game. I mean, come on people! History has shown that eventually everything grows and those that are left behind must either catch-up or go elsewhere. Same applies here. We need growth on the internet, and specifically in USENET. We do not need more and more restrictions and self-proclaimed G-Men out hunting down our data and destroying it at their own will. If the net is to grow, then we must say 'to hell' with the stupid useless mindset that a few anal-retentive system administrators out there seem to have regarding the binary images. It should be up to the stragglers to either invent new ways to get around their problems, or use old methods to weed-out the undesirable files. This is how internet has always worked and is why it has grown so sucessfully over the past 20 years. I see no need to change that now. Thanks for listening to my opinions! Kevin

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> >I hope to see more binaries in RGVAC! The net WILL grow despite those people who are > >determined to keep it from happening. RGVAC related binaries SHOULD GO into RGVAC, in > >my opinion. Some may shoot back with "we don't care about YOUR opinion, lamer", but I > >have the same voice as anyone else on this issue and therefore that argument is not > >valid. > Some people PAY for every single byte of data they receive in this newsgroup > and they do NOT have a choice of which articles they pay or not.

Then I submit to you that it is time for you to find another service provider. The company I am with offers $20/month for unlimited access to the net.. no hourly charges, no per byte charges. I know that, for competitive reasons, there are plenty of other providers throughout the country that offer same or cheaper service. A 100K binary file will not cost very much extra even to someone unfortunate/uneducated enough to pay per byte. Paying per minute? 100K takes about a minute or two at 14,400 BPS. Do you use TIA, SLIP, PPP and web software like netscape? If so, you get hundreds of K of data every minute. Hey.. not a bad idea. AOL is my first choice. Talk about gouging your customers and playing on their computer illiteracy.. sheesh. Kevin

There is a specific place set aside for simulators binaries. I'm sure that an internet expert like yourself will have very little trouble finding it and thus save me all the hassles I've already described at length. Far from being overrun, it has had about 10 posts in the last two weeks so you should find files without trouble. Before you say it, NO I CAN'T accept downloading "only ten files" since for sure one of them will be the 20Mb demo of GP2 which I'm not going to spend hours downloading. I'm not, but anyway, it's only MY PROBLEM because YOU'RE making it my problem. I can buy new software, install it, change my service provider, buy a faster modem, or any one of a million other options to avoid you clicking one button or subscribing to one more extremely quiet group! And you say that I AM being inconsiderate? If you read what I sent, I stated quite clearly that not everyone enjoys such cheap 'phone bills as you have in the US. I have to PAY for downloads and some of those big files will cost a fair amount of money and, more important, time - I don't want to waste those. We're obviously not going to agree on this. I'm trying to co-exist, you're trying to dictate. One feature my software does support is a kill-file - you've just earned your entry. _________________________________ __ _____| |_____ __ _________| |__| :| John Wallace | |__| |_________ \ :| |::| :| Team WW Racing TSW | |::| | / > :| |::| :|_________________________________| |::| | < / :|__|::|____:/ -=Ayrton Senna=- \.____|::|__| \ /_______:/ \::/ Racing is in my ***, it's part of me \::/ \._______\

and now who is resorting to abuse? I always admire consistency in a person..... _________________________________ __ _____| |_____ __ _________| |__| :| John Wallace | |__| |_________ \ :| |::| :| Team WW Racing TSW | |::| | / > :| |::| :|_________________________________| |::| | < / :|__|::|____:/ -=Ayrton Senna=- \.____|::|__| \ /_______:/ \::/ Racing is in my ***, it's part of me \::/ \._______\

[snip] Would you (generic you) kindly mind the Newsgroups-header, please? There is nothing gained by crossposting all over the place when it seems that only one newsgroup is involved in the discussion. Thanks, Vicke

And which country might that be? FYI, Usenet is distributed outside of USA as well. You know for a fact that Zimbabwe has plenty of providers? How about Russia? China? Yeah, _one_ binary doesn't, but how about 10 a day? Who says they have 14.400? 4800 is quite adequate for text-only. _I_ happen to have a 10Mb/s ethernet connection at my own home. I don't pay by the minute nor by the byte. The guy next door might though. -TPP

: And which country might that be? FYI, Usenet is distributed outside of : USA as well. You know for a fact that Zimbabwe has plenty of providers? : How about Russia? China? And how many rgvac readers are in Zimbabwe, Russia, and China? : Yeah, _one_ binary doesn't, but how about 10 a day? The day there is 10 video game scans a day... : Who says they have 14.400? 4800 is quite adequate for text-only. And how many people still use 4800? We continue to support the minority by making light of the one person in a hundred who pays by the minute. We make light of the one person who uses a 1200 baud modem. Sounds like the media telling us about the one plane accident here in the US that kills 200 people while 300 die *daily* on the US highways. Why play devils advocate? The truth is that the minority is a minority, and on the net, you pay for not having a fast (relatively, since 14.4 isn't that fast) modem, and low-cost service provider. I don't see where the majority should be held back because some people can't run that fast... Just my opinion- my right here in the US, Michael.

You have accurate statistics on this of course? Internet is NOT American and what may be the norm in the U.S. is certainly a minority elsewhere in the world (and even in the US it's arguable). Probably a majority of network connections ARE direct (non-dialup) but we're not concerned with them. We're talking about THIS group and I would be very surprised if the majority or people here have sufficiently fast connections. Even if they did, the majority of those who are enjoying fast connections will have a little pity on us poor second-rate third-world people who only paid thousands of dollars for our dial-up systems and just CLICK ANOTHER BUTTON. It's really not a heck of a lot to ask, it's not enough to have a fast connection, but that one extra mouseclick is really asking too much of you?! How selfish can you get, for the sake of your family lineage I hope you're more considerate in other activities. John _________________________________ __ _____| |_____ __ _________| |__| :| John Wallace | |__| |_________ \ :| |::| :| Team WW Racing TSW | |::| | / > :| |::| :|_________________________________| |::| | < / :|__|::|____:/ -=Ayrton Senna=- \.____|::|__| \ /_______:/ \::/ Racing is in my ***, it's part of me \::/ \._______\

>By the way, what do you guys pay per minute? A 100K image takes less >than a minute to d/l over a 14.4 modem, so even if you spend an extra >minute, so what? Normally I don't answer these crossposts, but... I have a friend that lives in Russia right now - she pays 100 US$ pr down loaded megabyte. A wrongly posted binary can be very costly. And no, she can't select articles before downloading. Think about it. Thats what it is to live in a one ISP town...in Russia (guess that I misspelled "hell" there). -- -TC

That is "interesting" for you? What a sad little life you must have... If you don't have a GUI, surely you should understand even more (and I didn't always have a GUI either). Because I don't want to have to plough through all articles ON-LINE in a non-binaries group to avoid downloading binaries which shouldn't be there in the first place. Can I ask you, who's using your family brain cell at the moment, surely the answer to that was obvious? Emmmm I didn't - see above..... If you're so interested in considering others and saving bandwidth, please try not to answer at all in future... John _________________________________ __ _____| |_____ __ _________| |__| :| John Wallace | |__| |_________ \ :| |::| :| Team WW Racing TSW | |::| | / > :| |::| :|_________________________________| |::| | < / :|__|::|____:/ -=Ayrton Senna=- \.____|::|__| \ /_______:/ \::/ Racing is in my ***, it's part of me \::/ \._______\

OK folks, enough is enough. You've got an opinion. I've got an opinion. I'm not going to change yours and you're not going to change mine. Take this thread over to net.admin where it belongs. You folks want to bicker? Great. Keep your "discussions" in a relevant newsgroup so the rest of us can get on with our lives. Enough of this childish "look who's being insensitive" and "who stole your one brain cell" bickering. I'm sick of it. Virtu-Al

> OK folks, enough is enough. This topic comes up periodically in r.a.s. The bottom line is that r.a.s. was not created for binaries, and that auto simulator related binaries should be posted to: alt.binaries.simulators.autos which was created especially for that purpose. A message can be posted to r.a.s. informing people of a posting to a.b.s.a, and we'll all be happy. -- Theoretical Comp. Sci. Lab. | X400: S=ballim;OU=di;O=epfl; EPFL, Lausanne | PRMD=switch;ADMD=400net;C=ch CH-1015 (Switzerland) | http://issco-www.unige.ch/~afzal Phone: (+41 21) 693 52 34 | fax: (+41 21) 693 52 78

To use on of your own "razor-sharp" witticisms, "pot/kettle" Incidentally, did you notice that all your pathetic whinging about my .sig actually took up more bandwidth than the .sig did? Hell of a lot less interesting and informative too. _________________________________ __ _____| |_____ __ _________| |__| :| John Wallace | |__| |_________ \ :| |::| :| Team WW Racing TSW | |::| | / > :| |::| :|_________________________________| |::| | < / :|__|::|____:/ -=Ayrton Senna=- \.____|::|__| \ /_______:/ \::/ Racing is in my ***, it's part of me \::/ \._______\

How many times some people have to be told that some of use do not have the possibility of choosing what to download before reading the articles??? How hard is it to post the binaries to a binary group and post a pointer in the discussion newsgroups? -TPP