Binary Throttle ?

Absolutely correct. The software doesn't just allow for analogue control, it was designed for it. For a better racing experience, you really MUST get a decent analogue joystick, or preferably one of the ThrustMaster steering wheels. It will give you far greater control and feedback than keys ever could. -- *************************************************************************** * Paul L. Finnemore, Apprentice Veterinarian * * "Five tablets and a ten minute consultation. That's 50 please." * ***************************************************************************

I've been playing many of the racing simms for quite a few years now (esp F1GP), but have always tended to use KEYBOARD controls rather that a joystick. Certainly on F1GP this does not seem to cause any problems, but on NASCAR and, most recently ICR2, I think I'm not getting the degree of throttle control that I need. On ICR2 in particular, when I apply the power coming out of a turn, the car just oversteers uncontrolably. Is this becuase, by using keys to accel/brake, I'm going from 0% throttle to 100% throttle instantly? If I were to use a joystick, would this solve the problem? Does the software allow for "analogue" control of the throttle? Thanks -- Andrew Jackson. (Bracknell, Berkshire, England).

Mercedes-Benz has an owner's club magazine- the interview with Stirling Moss said that the power-to-weight ratio is so high in an F1 car (mind you, this meant the cars he drove, many moons ago) that there is either all or no throttle....looking over a telemetry plot from Jordan-Hart F1 (some book I saw, I can't remember which) showed that the throttle was either all or nothing. Why do racing sims not use the throttle as either on/off (or at least allow a feature that supports this)??

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>Subject: Binary Throttle ? >Date: 11 Jan 1996 19:46:13 -0000 >I've been playing many of the racing simms for quite a few years now (esp >F1GP), but have always tended to use KEYBOARD controls rather that a >joystick. Certainly on F1GP this does not seem to cause any problems, >but on NASCAR and, most recently ICR2, I think I'm not getting the degree >of throttle control that I need. On ICR2 in particular, when I apply the >power coming out of a turn, the car just oversteers uncontrolably. >Is this becuase, by using keys to accel/brake, I'm going from 0% >throttle to 100% throttle instantly? >If I were to use a joystick, would this solve the problem? >Does the software allow for "analogue" control of the throttle? >Thanks >-- >Andrew Jackson. (Bracknell, Berkshire, England).

Hi Andy, I am also a loony keyboard user, and experience the same problem- BUT I was told that the keyboard works smoothly - you turn the wheel slowly, and you go soft on the brake and throttle - something you can feel especially good when negotiating the chicane at Watkins Glen. See how the computer cars are "throwing" themselves into the chicane? The only way I can get through there quickly is by cutting the grass! I would love to get a T2 - problem is it costs 200 here. Also, If the brakes are instantly working at 100%, you would lock the wheels and make a mess of it. And you would get "snap" oversteer- like what you are experiencing. I am getting a bit confused right now....the main oversteer problem to me is the fact that the engine does not speed up (higher RPM) when the rear wheels loose traction. the only way to discover that you are "loose" is to see what happens when you are getting out of a turn..Poor feedback!! You can go quite quickly on the road courses - on NASCAR I am right up with the real lap records, but in a race the keyboard is useless. Cheers, Matthew.

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>I've been playing many of the racing simms for quite a few years now (esp >F1GP), but have always tended to use KEYBOARD controls rather that a >joystick. Certainly on F1GP this does not seem to cause any problems, >but on NASCAR and, most recently ICR2, I think I'm not getting the degree >of throttle control that I need. On ICR2 in particular, when I apply the >power coming out of a turn, the car just oversteers uncontrolably. >Is this becuase, by using keys to accel/brake, I'm going from 0% >throttle to 100% throttle instantly? >If I were to use a joystick, would this solve the problem? >Does the software allow for "analogue" control of the throttle?

I think this, to a certain extent, reflects the fact that f1gp was written when few people used joysticks readily, and the keyboard was the standard thing. It is both the steering and the throttle which are a problem on Indycar. What makes F1GP so much better for keyboard users is the cunning levels of damping introduced so that it's very easy to keep the car steering at a fixed angle, if you're trying to steer very slightly, by dabbing Left or Right... -- Paul Smyth, Dept of Medical BioPhysics, University of Manchester. Telephone: +44 (0161) 275 5157

Andrew, Yes. Yes. Steve.

Why do racing sims not use the throttle as either on/off (or at least allow a feature that supports this)?? <<< I was recently reviewing some telemetry from an IndyCar running at Long Beach, and the throttle was most definitely *not* on/off. One thing that was interesting (and that both NASCAR and IndyCar Racing II support, but you need the proper control hardware to support), is that a lot of the time the driver was using both the throttle and the brake. Rick Genter Technical Lead, IndyCar Racing II Papyrus Design Group, Inc.

Is this becuase, by using keys to accel/brake, I'm going from 0% throttle to 100% throttle instantly? If I were to use a joystick, would this solve the problem? Does the software allow for "analogue" control of the throttle? <<< We don't slam the throttle from 0% to 100% on a digital control; we ramp it up, albeit in about one second. With a joystick or other analog device, you can control the amount of throttle you feed the car. And yes, this makes a big difference, especially when your tires are cold. Rick Genter Technical Lead, IndyCar Racing II Papyrus Design Group, Inc.

I think this is a little harsh - F1GP is a sim, but it has facilities to enable it to be played with the keyboard, which does pull it down nearer to a 'game' than a sim. is awesome!<< Yes, it is much better than previous Papyrus sims - IMO they still need to work on the model of the car - it's obviously come a long way since NASCAR. Virtual Karts - now there's a game you can play with the keyboard.<< Not really comparing like with like there, are we? Microprose are only the publishers of GP2 - the code is down to Geoff Crammond and his team. We've seen in the past his ability to deliver the goods - let's hope that this continues to be the case. Steve.

: I was recently reviewing some telemetry from an IndyCar running at Long : Beach, and the throttle was most definitely *not* on/off. One thing that : was interesting (and that both NASCAR and IndyCar Racing II support, but : you need the proper control hardware to support), is that a lot of the : time the driver was using both the throttle and the brake. Using both the brake and throttle to control a heavy NASCAR on a road circuit is a MUST. I salute Papyrus for providing this detail to their sim. Actually the brakes and throttle or just as important to controlling a car as the steering wheel (and wings). -- **************************** Michael E. Carver ************************* Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./. [- < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

Rick, brake.<< Is this using a left foot braking technique like Mika Hakkinen is known for, or is it heel & toe action? While I've got your attention <g> - is there any reason why ICR etc don't have neutral gears, and reverse is only available by using a different input source rather than the normal gear shift mechanism? Also, does the car's model use a centrepetal clutch which reduces wheelspin, because I have never noticed the revs climbing to indicate wheelspin when pulling away, etc. Thanks. Steve.

Is this using a left foot braking technique like Mika Hakkinen is known for, or is it heel & toe action? <<< I believe it was left foot braking. While I've got your attention <g> - is there any reason why ICR etc don't have neutral gears, and reverse is only available by using a different input source rather than the normal gear shift mechanism? Also, does the car's model use a centrepetal clutch which reduces wheelspin, because I have never noticed the revs climbing to indicate wheelspin when pulling away, etc. <<< Our physics model requires the car to be in gear; this is why we don't have neutral. As for reverse, I think we didn't want to make it easy to accidentally shift into reverse. The car's model does not use a centripetal clutch, and when the car is in a wild spin, you *can* see the RPMs skyrocket while you are spinning out of control as the wheels spin. Rick Genter Technical Lead, IndyCar Racing II Papyrus Design Group, Inc.

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>I've been playing many of the racing simms for quite a few years now (esp >F1GP), but have always tended to use KEYBOARD controls rather that a >joystick. Certainly on F1GP this does not seem to cause any problems, >but on NASCAR and, most recently ICR2, I think I'm not getting the degree >of throttle control that I need. On ICR2 in particular, when I apply the >power coming out of a turn, the car just oversteers uncontrolably. >Is this becuase, by using keys to accel/brake, I'm going from 0% >throttle to 100% throttle instantly? >If I were to use a joystick, would this solve the problem? >Does the software allow for "analogue" control of the throttle?

Despite what you've be told, binary throttle and brake in NASCAR is an advantage. If you use a joystick try it yourself. Set autoshift on. set throttle and brake to buttons. use an oval u r familar with. set the car to full rear weight and rear spoiler to 40. Drive a few laps. Now set the throttle and brake to analog. Try driving the car. Please post your results.

: Michael, : >>Using both the brake and throttle to control a heavy NASCAR on a road : circuit is a MUST.<< : Just out of interest, do you mean for them both to be in use at the same : time, or the fact that they should both be available (and analogue, as : opposed to binary). If it's the former, what benefit do you think it : provides to accelerate and brake at the same time? I use the brake to get the car "pointed" in the right direction, then back onto the throttle to help straighten out the car. Sometimes it's just a light tap on the brakes to bring the weight over the front wheels. It's a quick brake to throttle thing, with the brake coming off as the throttle goes down. -- **************************** Michael E. Carver ************************* Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./. [- < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

I can testify to the accuracy of that! I was (finally) in the lead at long beach and the penske I just passed for the lead (on the final lap) took offense and tried to do an out break manuever, we got tangled up and it sent my engine sky high. Man was I pi**ed. Mike

>Is this using a left foot braking technique like Mika Hakkinen is known >for, or is it heel & toe action? I think IndyCar drivers still need a clutch, so I'd guess they do it to keep the turbo pressure up. I think F1 drivers did the same back in the turbo era. Left foot braking becomes possible because F1 cars don't need clutches (other than at the start). --

When driving a 100cc kart in the wet I sometimes use the brakes and throttle together to reduce the sensitivity of the throttle. If you're not careful just breathing on the accelerator in one of those things in the wet can send you spinning off.

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>: Michael, >: >>Using both the brake and throttle to control a heavy NASCAR on a road >: circuit is a MUST.<< >: Just out of interest, do you mean for them both to be in use at the same >: time, or the fact that they should both be available (and analogue, as >: opposed to binary). If it's the former, what benefit do you think it >: provides to accelerate and brake at the same time? >I use the brake to get the car "pointed" in the right direction, then >back onto the throttle to help straighten out the car. Sometimes it's >just a light tap on the brakes to bring the weight over the front >wheels. It's a quick brake to throttle thing, with the brake coming off >as the throttle goes down. >-- >**************************** Michael E. Carver ************************* > Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town. >=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./. [- < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

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>>Rick Genter: >>>>a lot of the time the driver was using both the throttle and the >>brake.<< >>Is this using a left foot braking technique like Mika Hakkinen is known >>for, or is it heel & toe action? >I think IndyCar drivers still need a clutch, so I'd guess they do it >to keep the turbo pressure up. I think F1 drivers did the same back >in the turbo era.

Sorry, indycar drivers only need the clutch to get started in first. Any car with a decent racing transmission can be shifted by rev matching. -- | Dave Vollman (HASA "S" Division) Cogito, ergo stipendium | AT&T Bell Laboratories, Naperville, IL | AT&T would never let ME speak for THEM!

Since my original post (and the helpful reply from Mr Papyrus), I've started using a CH FLIGHTSICK PRO - which was a VERY late gift from Santa! I am finding the THROTTLE CONTROL much better than using keys (since I can feed in the power gentle as I go through the apex of turns) and so I'm not oversteering nearly as much as before. Having said that, the FLIGHTSTICK PRO seems to be VERY badly designed for use in Racing Sims, because the THROTTLE CONTROL thumbwheel has been STUPIDLY placed such that you can't use it if you're truning hard left! This is most noticable inn Indycar and Nascar races, where one tends to turn left rather alot - and its JUST where you want to be controlling the throttle! I still find that the joystick lacks accuracy for steering - but I'm getting used to it. Maybe I should look at buying/making one of these steering wheel things. Thanks for all the info. -- Andrew Jackson. (Bracknell, Berkshire, England).

> Having said that, the FLIGHTSTICK PRO seems to be VERY badly designed for > use in Racing Sims, because the THROTTLE CONTROL thumbwheel has been > STUPIDLY placed such that you can't use it if you're truning hard left! > This is most noticable inn Indycar and Nascar races, where one tends to > turn left rather alot - and its JUST where you want to be controlling the > throttle! Well, if you are a bit adventurous, you might try this : (BTW, I have done this for a CH FLIGHTSTICK, not a PRO, but I think they have the same base design so it should work) If you open up <gasp> the bottom (you must take off the sticky things and then unscrew the 4 base screws) you will get to see the beautiful engineering job of the flightstick. What's really interesting is that because of the design of the throttle wheel, there is a way to move it. Looking at the bottom of the joystick like this: DISCLAIMER: I'm a horrible ascii artist, but I'll do the best I can _ | | | | _| | ____||| |_____ | | -------------- /\ || look this way, after bottom is removed. You will see that the throttle wheel sits loosely in between two holders which form a circular support when the bottom is screwed on. If you were to pick up the entire throttle assembly, and flip it 180 degrees, it would result in offsetting the thumbwheel's position on top by about twice the length of the axle. Fortunately the axle is short enough that the thumbwheel still fits inside the joystick. Here's another crude drawing: (whoops, I flipped it upside down, oh well) ___________________________________________

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| Circular | | Holder | | || __________________ | | || || | | | | || || | | | | ||===|| | Joystick | | | || || | Apparatus | | | || || |_________________| | | || | | Thumbwheel | |___________________________________________|

Top Oh, of course you have to cut out another slot for the thumbwheel to fit into, just like it does right now next to the joystick. With careful measuring, you should be able to rough out a good outline of where it should be (on the bottom) and cut out a new slot. (I used some exacto knives and a dremmel [very handy tool to have]) It should now look like this: ___________________________________________

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| Circular | | Holder | | || _ __________________ | | || || || | | | | || || || | | | | ||====|| || | Joystick | | | || || || | Apparatus | | | || || || |_________________| | |New || - | |Position Old slot | |___________________________________________|

Top Next, as you should be able to tell, you have reversed the axis of rotation, so that up is down and down is up when you spin the wheel. But, you can fix that too. I figured that you could just flip the wires, but it doesn't quite work that way. There are about three connectors to the thumbwheel, and only two wires to it. You have to play with putting them into different posistions until you get it right, but you should be able to. YOU MAY WANT TO VERIFY THIS FIRST BEFORE CUTTING YOUR NEW SLOT ON A FLIGHTSTICK PRO! So, once you have done that, flip the wheel, inserting it into your new slot, make sure the wires are reconnected properly and all should be well. There is only one caveat, I wasn't able to move the little piece of plastic which rubs against the thumbwheel to produce the resistance and slight clicking noise. There probably is a way, but I didn't bother. I don't think the clicking matters much, but it is kinda nice to have. If you're really attached to that device, you may not want to do this 'modification'. All said and done, I have successfully done this. I did it about two years ago, and my joystick is still working fine so there shouldn't be anything to worry about, except aesthetics if you don't have confidence in cutting a clean new slot. Good luck, tell me if you do it or not (or anybody else for that matter). I find that it makes using the thumbwheel in ALL games much more enjoyable since you're not always banging the joystick into your thumb when turning/steering left. Yeah, me too. But using my modified Flightstick works ok. Concerning Indycar2 (and IndycarI), I have found that if you have the brake and throttle on the thumbwheel, then you have to center it exactly for reverse to work. This kinda sucks and I have since given up on it, using two keys on my left hand for brake and throttle. I find this allows me to place the joystick flat on my desk instead of holding it which is much better for accuracy. I do wish that I could have real analog braking/throttle. It does allow for more fine tuning in turns and what not. Of course you can kind of simulate that by pressing the brake/throttle at different rates too, but that certainly doesn't immitate real life very well. Cheers, -- ............................................................................ : the spaces of the mind are :: space extends to infinity : : _a new dimension_. the body :: outwards : : is a mere wall between two :: the mind stretches to infinity : : infinities :: inwards. : : _the mind parasites_ : ............................................................................