May the Force be with you...NOT

Please don't kill me; I'm only the messenger. A list of games "protected" by (or "infested" with, depending) w. Star Force, including Codie titles like TOCA Race Driver, posted on broadbandreports.com: http://www.broadbandreports.com/shownews/48427 ********************** AceSaga N/A Star Force American Conquest N/A CDV Software Russia StarForce 3 Anito: Defend A Land Enraged N/A Anino Entertainment Asia StarForce 1 Anstoss 4 N/A ? Germany StarForce 3 Army Men N/A 3DO Russia StarForce Bandits: Phoenix Rising N/A Tri Synergy N/A StarForce 3.03.036.001 Breed 1.0 CDV US StarForce 3.3.33.06 Breed N/A CDV France StarForce 3.3.33.08 Broken Sword 3: The Sleeping Dragon N/A Revolution US StarForce Chrome N/A Strategy First Russia StarForce 3 Codename: Outbreak N/A Virgin Interactive Russia StarForce 1 Cossacks: Back To War N/A CDV Software Russia StarForce 1 Cossacks: European Wars N/A GSC Russia StarForce 3 Curse: The Eye of Isis N/A Dreamcatcher Interactive N/A StarForce 3 Cycling Manager 3 N/A GMX Media N/A StarForce 3 Dead to Rights N/A Hip Interactive N/A StarForce 3 Demonic Speedway N/A ? Poland StarForce 3 Desert Rats vs. Afrika Corps 1.0 Monte Cristo France StarForce 3.3.31.19 DTM Race Driver 2 N/A Codemasters N/A StarForce 3.3.35.02 Emergency Fire Response N/A Dreamcatcher Interactive N/A StarForce 3 Enigma: Rising Tide N/A Tesseraction Games N/A StarForce 3 Etherlords N/A Fishtank Interactive Russia StarForce 1 Etherlords II N/A Strategy First N/A StarForce 3.03.031.021 Fire Chief N/A Strategy First N/A StarForce 3 Fire Department N/A Monte Cristo N/A StarForce 3 Gangland N/A Whiptail Interactive N/A StarForce 3.03.031.021 Heroes of Might & Magic IV: The Gathering Storm N/A 3DO Russia StarForce Horse Race Manager N/A Cyanide N/A StarForce 3 Icewind Dale: Heart of Winter N/A Interplay UK StarForce 3 IL-2 Sturmovik N/A Ubi Soft Russia StarForce 1 Kicker Manager 2004 N/A Deep Silver N/A StarForce 3.03.036.001 Kill Switch 1.0 Namco France StarForce 3.3.33.08 Korea: Forgotten Conflict N/A CENEGA N/A StarForce 3 Magna Carta N/A Korea N/A StarForce 1 Magnamedia N/A Russia N/A StarForce 3 Mercedes-Benz World Racing N/A TDK Mediactive Spain StarForce 3 Might & Magic IX: Writ of Fate N/A 3DO Russia StarForce Narsillion N/A ? Russia StarForce 1 Obscure N/A Hydravision Entertainment N/A StarForce 3.3.36.01 Pax Romana N/A Dreamcatcher Interactive N/A StarForce 3 Prince of Persia: The Sands of Time N/A Ubisoft Russia StarForce 3 Pro Rugby Manager N/A Digital Jesters N/A StarForce 3.3.33.08 Rally Championship Xtreme N/A Warthog Entertainment Software N/A StarForce Rendezvous 3 N/A ? Russia StarForce Restaurant Empire N/A Enlight Software N/A StarForce Revolution N/A Activision Value Publishing N/A StarForce Runaway: A Road Adventure N/A Tri Synergy N/A StarForce 3 Seventh Seal: The Resurrection of the Dark Lord N/A ? Asia StarForce 2 Shtyrlits 3: USSR Agent N/A ? Russia StarForce 1 Siege of Avalon N/A Digital Tome Russia StarForce 1 Silent Storm N/A Nival N/A StarForce 3 Silkolene Honda Motocross GP N/A Midas Interactive Entertainment N/A StarForce 3 Sniper N/A ? N/A StarForce 3 Soldiers: Heroes of World War II 1.05.1 Codemasters N/A StarForce 3.03.036.001 Tennis Masters Series: Battleground of Champions N/A Microids Asia StarForce Tennis Masters Series: Battleground of Champions 1.1 Microids Czech StarForce 3 The Heroes of Three Kingdoms N/A N/A Asia StarForce The I Of The Dragon N/A Primal Software Russia StarForce 3 The Westerner N/A Focus Home Interactive France StarForce 3.3.31.21 TOCA Race Driver 2 1.0 Codemasters N/A StarForce 3.3.35.02 TOCA Race Driver 2 1.1 Codemasters N/A StarForce 3.3.36.01 TOCA Race Driver 2 1.2 Codemasters N/A StarForce 3.3.36.01 Track Mania N/A Nadeo N/A StarForce 3.03.035.004 Trackmania N/A Nadeo N/A StarForce 3 UFO: Aftermath 1.00 CENEGA Spain StarForce 3 V8 Supercars 2 N/A Codemasters Australia StarForce 3.3.35.02 Wildlife Park N/A Encore, Inc N/A StarForce 3 World War II: Frontline Command 1.0.0.0 Strategy First N/A StarForce World War II: Frontline Command N/A Strategy First N/A StarForce 3 X2: The Threat N/A Enlight Software N/A StarForce 3.3.30.5 Xuan-Yuan Sword 4 N/A ? ASIA StarForce 2 Also they apparently include this protection with the demos of some of these games ??? Why ? ********************** ...AND the tool to remove the evil scheme: http://www.jeffjones.org/files/sfclean.zip

Steve Smith wrote: ... > A list of games "protected" by ... > IL-2 Sturmovik ... Strange, I've got IL2 installed but no Starforce drivers in my DevMan (yep, I've enabled the display of the hidden devices). -- Achim http://users.skynet.be/AchimT

I've also got a game called 'Beyond Divinity' which isn't in that list and it's definitely Starforce 3.

> A list of games "protected" by (or "infested" with, depending) w. Star > Force, posted on > broadbandreports.com: Yeah, and?

> I've also got a game called 'Beyond Divinity' which isn't in that list and > it's definitely Starforce 3. I should add that I've had no problems what-so-ever with it and all of my other devices are working just fine.

"Destroy" <[email hidden]> kirjoitti viestiss�:O7nad.105510$[email hidden]... >> A list of games "protected" by (or "infested" with, depending) w. Star >> Force, posted on >> broadbandreports.com: > > Yeah, and? > SimBin's GTR will have Starforce3 too. Starforce is bad because it install hidden device drivers WITHOUT asking anything when you put the cd/dvd into your drive, and doesn't remove the driver when uninstalling the game. It also makes the cd/dvd impossible to backup. Making a backup for personal used is completely legal* and well explained action, and taking away the customer's right to do so, is plain evil (and even illegal?). Starforce3 should keep the nasty pirates out, though. *at least here in Finland, untill the new copyright laws come into effect sometime next year; those include the illegality of braking copyright protections even for personal use -- Mika Takala ^not a pirate. Just keeping watch of basic consumer rights.

Rumour has it that the GTR betas warn about the CD drivers installed by Starforce 3 and 'Starforce Cleaner' is included on the CD.

Not really, all they've done is ensure people who want to buy the game will have to download it to avoid having starforce dumped on their system. _____ Steve "Military intelligence, two words combined that can't make sense." Mika Takala wrote: > Starforce3 should keep the nasty pirates out, though.

"Edgecrusher" <[email hidden]> kirjoitti viestiss�:[email hidden]... > Not really, all they've done is ensure people who want to buy the game > will have to download it to avoid having starforce dumped on their system. > > _____ > > Steve So tell me, how many starforce-protected games have been cracked (=nocd-exe available)? 0. Ok, there have been some hacks with mini-sized cd-images which have only the data that starforce drivers need to see, but those haven't been around for many games and they do not work for everyone. "i have a race tonight but cat just broke my cd.. lets just use the backup..oh, what backup? where can i get a working cd in two hours time without buying a second license..." a difficult scenario for users. I do not have much hope for flexible (fast enough) replacement cd/dvd service by the importers, publishers or distributers... -- Mika Takala

Me too. I ran the SF remover tool and it said it didn't detect any SF drivers. Like I say, I'm just the messenger. I don't like the idea of clandestine forces messing with my computer (there's actually a law against that here), so I'm propagating the info for others to judge. "Joachim Trensz" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> Steve Smith wrote: > ... > > A list of games "protected" by ... > > IL-2 Sturmovik ... > > Strange, I've got IL2 installed but no Starforce drivers in my DevMan > (yep, I've enabled the display of the hidden devices). > > -- > Achim > http://users.skynet.be/AchimT

On Mon, 11 Oct 2004 13:44:27 +0300, "Mika Takala" <[email hidden]> wrote something like: >"i have a race tonight but cat just broke my cd.. lets just use the >backup..oh, what backup? where can i get a working cd in two hours time >without buying a second license..." a difficult scenario for users. I do >not have much hope for flexible (fast enough) replacement cd/dvd service by >the importers, publishers or distributers... :O I guess I'll be keeping my GTR CD locked up somewhere so that my cat can't get her claws on it ;) Maybe they are after increased sales... GTR league racers will be buying multiple copies as backups :/ (and ppl are complaining how complicated LFS registration system is... seems like a better option to me) -- - Jussi Koukku -

Steve Smith <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:Gread.291649$[email hidden]...

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> Please don't kill me; I'm only the messenger. > > A list of games "protected" by (or "infested" with, depending) w. Star > Force, including Codie titles like TOCA Race Driver, posted on > broadbandreports.com: > > http://www.broadbandreports.com/shownews/48427 > > ********************** > > AceSaga N/A Star Force > American Conquest N/A CDV Software Russia StarForce 3 > Anito: Defend A Land Enraged N/A Anino Entertainment Asia StarForce 1 > Anstoss 4 N/A ? Germany StarForce 3 > Army Men N/A 3DO Russia StarForce > Bandits: Phoenix Rising N/A Tri Synergy N/A StarForce 3.03.036.001 > Breed 1.0 CDV US StarForce 3.3.33.06 > Breed N/A CDV France StarForce 3.3.33.08 > Broken Sword 3: The Sleeping Dragon N/A > Revolution US StarForce > Chrome N/A Strategy First Russia StarForce 3 > Codename: Outbreak N/A Virgin Interactive Russia StarForce 1 > Cossacks: Back To War N/A CDV Software Russia StarForce 1 > Cossacks: European Wars N/A GSC Russia StarForce 3 > Curse: The Eye of Isis N/A Dreamcatcher Interactive N/A StarForce 3 > Cycling Manager 3 N/A GMX Media N/A StarForce 3 > Dead to Rights N/A Hip Interactive N/A StarForce 3 > Demonic Speedway N/A ? Poland StarForce 3 > Desert Rats vs. Afrika Corps 1.0 Monte Cristo France StarForce 3.3.31.19 > DTM Race Driver 2 N/A Codemasters N/A StarForce 3.3.35.02 > Emergency Fire Response N/A Dreamcatcher Interactive N/A StarForce 3 > Enigma: Rising Tide N/A Tesseraction Games N/A StarForce 3 > Etherlords N/A Fishtank Interactive Russia StarForce 1 > Etherlords II N/A Strategy First N/A StarForce 3.03.031.021 > Fire Chief N/A Strategy First N/A StarForce 3 > Fire Department N/A Monte Cristo N/A StarForce 3 > Gangland N/A Whiptail Interactive N/A StarForce 3.03.031.021 > Heroes of Might & Magic IV: The Gathering Storm N/A 3DO Russia StarForce > Horse Race Manager N/A Cyanide N/A StarForce 3 > Icewind Dale: Heart of Winter N/A Interplay UK StarForce 3 > IL-2 Sturmovik N/A Ubi Soft Russia StarForce 1 > Kicker Manager 2004 N/A Deep Silver N/A StarForce 3.03.036.001 > Kill Switch 1.0 Namco France StarForce 3.3.33.08 > Korea: Forgotten Conflict N/A CENEGA N/A StarForce 3 > Magna Carta N/A Korea N/A StarForce 1 > Magnamedia N/A Russia N/A StarForce 3 > Mercedes-Benz World Racing N/A TDK Mediactive Spain StarForce 3 > Might & Magic IX: Writ of Fate N/A 3DO Russia StarForce > Narsillion N/A ? Russia StarForce 1 > Obscure N/A Hydravision Entertainment N/A StarForce 3.3.36.01 > Pax Romana N/A Dreamcatcher Interactive N/A StarForce 3 > Prince of Persia: The Sands of Time N/A Ubisoft Russia StarForce 3 > Pro Rugby Manager N/A Digital Jesters N/A StarForce 3.3.33.08 > Rally Championship Xtreme N/A Warthog Entertainment Software N/A StarForce > Rendezvous 3 N/A ? Russia StarForce > Restaurant Empire N/A Enlight Software N/A StarForce > Revolution N/A Activision Value Publishing N/A StarForce > Runaway: A Road Adventure N/A Tri Synergy N/A StarForce 3 > Seventh Seal: The Resurrection of the Dark Lord N/A ? Asia StarForce 2 > Shtyrlits 3: USSR Agent N/A ? Russia StarForce 1 > Siege of Avalon N/A Digital Tome Russia StarForce 1 > Silent Storm N/A Nival N/A StarForce 3 > Silkolene Honda Motocross GP N/A Midas Interactive Entertainment N/A > StarForce 3 > Sniper N/A ? N/A StarForce 3 > Soldiers: Heroes of World War II 1.05.1 Codemasters N/A StarForce > 3.03.036.001 > Tennis Masters Series: Battleground of Champions N/A Microids Asia

StarForce

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> Tennis Masters Series: Battleground of Champions 1.1 Microids Czech > StarForce 3 > The Heroes of Three Kingdoms N/A N/A Asia StarForce > The I Of The Dragon N/A Primal Software Russia StarForce 3 > The Westerner N/A Focus Home Interactive France StarForce 3.3.31.21 > TOCA Race Driver 2 1.0 Codemasters N/A StarForce 3.3.35.02 > TOCA Race Driver 2 1.1 Codemasters N/A StarForce 3.3.36.01 > TOCA Race Driver 2 1.2 Codemasters N/A StarForce 3.3.36.01 > Track Mania N/A Nadeo N/A StarForce 3.03.035.004 > Trackmania N/A Nadeo N/A StarForce 3 > UFO: Aftermath 1.00 CENEGA Spain StarForce 3 > V8 Supercars 2 N/A Codemasters Australia StarForce 3.3.35.02 > Wildlife Park N/A Encore, Inc N/A StarForce 3 > World War II: Frontline Command 1.0.0.0 Strategy First N/A StarForce > World War II: Frontline Command N/A Strategy First N/A StarForce 3 > X2: The Threat N/A Enlight Software N/A StarForce 3.3.30.5 > Xuan-Yuan Sword 4 N/A ? ASIA StarForce 2 > > Also they apparently include this protection with the demos of some of

these

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> games ??? > > Why ? > > ********************** > > ...AND the tool to remove the evil scheme: > > http://www.jeffjones.org/files/sfclean.zip

Ah, another crusade in the making. Hope it turns out better than your last one dealing with track creation. > >

> (and ppl are complaining how complicated LFS registration system is... > seems like a better option to me) > -- > - Jussi Koukku - That's how I feel too. -- Mika Takala

Joachim Trensz wrote:

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> Steve Smith wrote: ... > >> A list of games "protected" by ... IL-2 Sturmovik ... > > > Strange, I've got IL2 installed but no Starforce drivers in my DevMan > (yep, I've enabled the display of the hidden devices). >

I've got IL2:FB and the Ace expansion pack installed, and I do see Starforce drivers in my device manager. However, I can't guarantee that IL2 is what installed them. Guess I need to read up on how to get rid of these things...

I only have IL2-FB/Aces, GTR PDemo, RBR Demo and NR2003 on my gaming rig and I dont have any SF drivers. Mitch "Swervo" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > I've got IL2:FB and the Ace expansion pack installed, and I do see > Starforce drivers in my device manager. However, I can't guarantee > that IL2 is what installed them. Guess I need to read up on how to get > rid of these things...

Steve Smith wrote: > Me too. I ran the SF remover tool and it said it didn't detect any SF > drivers. > > Like I say, I'm just the messenger. I don't like the idea of clandestine > forces messing with my computer ... Same thing here Steve, thanks a lot for posting this. I was just wondering whether these drivers could be on my system anyway without appearing even in the tweaked DevMan. Btw, I BCC'd you with those two pages for Joel, just in case you want to talk to him about it. I'm getting in gear again... for whatever it's worth. -- Achim http://users.skynet.be/AchimT

Swervo wrote: ... > I've got IL2:FB and the Ace expansion pack installed, and I do see > Starforce drivers in my device manager. However, I can't guarantee > that IL2 is what installed them. Guess I need to read up on how to get > rid of these things... FB here as well. Do you happen to know the filenames of these drivers? I'd like to look for them on my HD to make sure it isn't just my DevMan not showing them, but can't find anything that looks like the starforce files. -- Achim http://users.skynet.be/AchimT

JP wrote: ... > Ah, another crusade in the making. Hope it turns out better than your > last one dealing with track creation. We should be grateful Steve is drawing our attention to this issue. It might account for strange symptoms on many systems the cause of which the users have never found, according to what the article says. -- Achim http://users.skynet.be/AchimT

Joachim Trensz <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> JP wrote: > ... > > Ah, another crusade in the making. Hope it turns out better than your > > last one dealing with track creation. > > We should be grateful Steve is drawing our attention to this issue. It > might account for strange symptoms on many systems the cause of which > the users have never found, according to what the article says. > > -- > Achim > http://users.skynet.be/AchimT

Yeah, maybe he has *this* one right, eh ?

There have been a few posts in usegroups abt. which files (.dll's, I think) were involved. If you can't find 'em, I'll look again. "Joachim Trensz" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> Swervo wrote: > ... > > I've got IL2:FB and the Ace expansion pack installed, and I do see > > Starforce drivers in my device manager. However, I can't guarantee > > that IL2 is what installed them. Guess I need to read up on how to get > > rid of these things... > > FB here as well. Do you happen to know the filenames of these drivers? > I'd like to look for them on my HD to make sure it isn't just my DevMan > not showing them, but can't find anything that looks like the starforce > files. > > -- > Achim > http://users.skynet.be/AchimT

Got it, thanks. "Joachim Trensz" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > Steve Smith wrote: > > Me too. I ran the SF remover tool and it said it didn't detect any SF > > drivers. > > > > Like I say, I'm just the messenger. I don't like the idea ofclandestine

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> > forces messing with my computer ... > > Same thing here Steve, thanks a lot for posting this. I was just > wondering whether these drivers could be on my system anyway without > appearing even in the tweaked DevMan. > > Btw, I BCC'd you with those two pages for Joel, just in case you want to > talk to him about it. I'm getting in gear again... for whatever it's

worth. > > -- > Achim > http://users.skynet.be/AchimT

Found: Check for a large .DLL file, in the same directory as the protected exe. Most times it's called Protect.dll. Get the file properties of that file (click with right-mouse button), go to the Version tab page, and there you can see the Star-Force version ;) ********************* From the same forum (broadbandreports), SF could be considered illegal because: Re: Illegal... New York State Penal Law: � 156.20 Computer tampering in the fourth degree. A person is guilty of computer tampering in the fourth degree when he uses or causes to be used a computer or computer service and having no right to do so he intentionally alters in any manner or destroys computer data or a computer program of another person. Computer tampering in the fourth degree is a class A misdemeanor. � 156.25 Computer tampering in the third degree. A person is guilty of computer tampering in the third degree when he commits the crime of computer tampering in the fourth degree and: 1. he does so with an intent to commit or attempt to commit or further the commission of any felony; or 2. he has been previously convicted of any crime under this article or subdivision eleven of section 165.15 of this chapter; or 3. he intentionally alters in any manner or destroys computer material; or 4. he intentionally alters in any manner or destroys computer data or a computer program so as to cause damages in an aggregate amount exceeding one thousand dollars. Computer tampering in the third degree is a class E felony. *********************** From a Star Force employee(!): Seems you dont have a clue about copy protection scheme at all. 1. The driver is just a way to communicate your CD drive, directly. I.e. ensures requests can't be spoofed by emulators. 2. The driver remains INACTIVE unless you START the protected game. (like a driver for some external USB device, unless you plug thing in) 3. The driver automatically DEACTIVATES and stops any activity when you exit the protected game. 4. The driver DOES NOT affect your burning programs IN ANY WAY. _Never meant to_. _Because - absolutelly no need_. 5. To sum up, driver is just a guaranteed way to see if the currently inserted disc in drive is leagal or not. There is no other logic like blacklisting software, prevention to make (burn) copies, dialing home. AT ALL. Regarding to the protected programs and installation: After applying the protection to the product, the scheme becames part of the product. Like other third party Sound System engine DLL file. It is integral part of the game from now, the game wont run without it, its bound to it. So, when you agree to install the game, it installs whatever it requires for it's execution. Why dont you complain about game does not warn you that third party Rendering Engine DLL or Speech Transfer Technology DLL are installed? How about some Background Textures, Sound Files etc.?? As for the "driver" itself, it's the ONLY and legally documented way in WindowsNT to acquire the privileges NEED for the Copy Protection. Without these privileges it would be easy to crack it. It is just an apropriate tool. Like when you gonna fix your hand-watches you dont use a hammer. Driver is THE MOST APROPRIATE and i repeat the LEGAL tool for implementing efficient Copy Protection schemes under NT. ************************* Here's something else: Re: You do give it permission Here's my problem: if I buy a game, and in the EULA it says something about Star Force, I can reject the EULA but I can't return the game to the retailer because it has been opened. I will now have a $50 coaster. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- [Wrong!]: If if you click NO to the EULA, *Starforce has already installed itself on your machine* whether you agree or not. ************************* "Joachim Trensz" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > Swervo wrote: > ... > > I've got IL2:FB and the Ace expansion pack installed, and I do see > > Starforce drivers in my device manager. However, I can't guarantee > > that IL2 is what installed them. Guess I need to read up on how to get > > rid of these things... > > FB here as well. Do you happen to know the filenames of these drivers? > I'd like to look for them on my HD to make sure it isn't just my DevMan > not showing them, but can't find anything that looks like the starforce > files. > > -- > Achim > http://users.skynet.be/AchimT

Steve Smith wrote: ... > Check for a large .DLL file... Thanks Steve, will go searching! -- Achim http://users.skynet.be/AchimT

Steve Smith wrote:

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> Found: > > Check for a large .DLL file, in the same directory as the protected exe. > Most times it's called Protect.dll. Get the file properties of that file > (click with right-mouse button), go to the Version tab page, and there you > can see the Star-Force version ;) > > ********************* > > From the same forum (broadbandreports), SF could be considered illegal > because: > > Re: Illegal... > New York State Penal Law: > > � 156.20 Computer tampering in the fourth degree. > A person is guilty of computer tampering in the fourth degree when he > uses or causes to be used a computer or computer service and having no > right to do so he intentionally alters in any manner or destroys > computer data or a computer program of another person. > Computer tampering in the fourth degree is a class A misdemeanor. > > � 156.25 Computer tampering in the third degree. > A person is guilty of computer tampering in the third degree when he > commits the crime of computer tampering in the fourth degree and: > 1. he does so with an intent to commit or attempt to commit or further the > commission of any felony; or > 2. he has been previously convicted of any crime under this article or > subdivision eleven of section 165.15 of this chapter; or > 3. he intentionally alters in any manner or destroys computer material; or > 4. he intentionally alters in any manner or destroys computer data or a > computer program so as to cause damages in an aggregate amount exceeding one > thousand dollars. > Computer tampering in the third degree is a class E felony. > > *********************** > > From a Star Force employee(!): > > Seems you dont have a clue about copy protection scheme at all. > > 1. The driver is just a way to communicate your CD drive, directly. I.e. > ensures requests can't be spoofed by emulators. > 2. The driver remains INACTIVE unless you START the protected game. (like a > driver for some external USB device, unless you plug thing in) > 3. The driver automatically DEACTIVATES and stops any activity when you exit > the protected game. > 4. The driver DOES NOT affect your burning programs IN ANY WAY. _Never meant > to_. _Because - absolutelly no need_. > 5. To sum up, driver is just a guaranteed way to see if the currently > inserted disc in drive is leagal or not. > > There is no other logic like blacklisting software, prevention to make > (burn) copies, dialing home. AT ALL. > > Regarding to the protected programs and installation: > > After applying the protection to the product, the scheme becames part of the > product. Like other third party Sound System engine DLL file. It is integral > part of the game from now, the game wont run without it, its bound to it. > > So, when you agree to install the game, it installs whatever it requires for > it's execution. Why dont you complain about game does not warn you that > third party Rendering Engine DLL or Speech Transfer Technology DLL are > installed? How about some Background Textures, Sound Files etc.?? > > As for the "driver" itself, it's the ONLY and legally documented way in > WindowsNT to acquire the privileges NEED for the Copy Protection. Without > these privileges it would be easy to crack it. It is just an apropriate > tool. Like when you gonna fix your hand-watches you dont use a hammer. > Driver is THE MOST APROPRIATE and i repeat the LEGAL tool for implementing > efficient Copy Protection schemes under NT. > > ************************* > > Here's something else: > > Re: You do give it permission > > Here's my problem: if I buy a game, and in the EULA it says something > about Star Force, I can reject the EULA but I can't return the game to the > retailer because it has been opened. I will now have a $50 coaster. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > -- > > [Wrong!]: If if you click NO to the EULA, *Starforce has already installed > itself on your machine* whether you agree or not. > > ************************* > > "Joachim Trensz" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > >>Swervo wrote: >>... >> >>>I've got IL2:FB and the Ace expansion pack installed, and I do see >>>Starforce drivers in my device manager. However, I can't guarantee >>>that IL2 is what installed them. Guess I need to read up on how to get >>>rid of these things... >> >>FB here as well. Do you happen to know the filenames of these drivers? >>I'd like to look for them on my HD to make sure it isn't just my DevMan >>not showing them, but can't find anything that looks like the starforce >>files. >> >>-- >>Achim >>http://users.skynet.be/AchimT > > >

Found one instance in the X2 directory! -- Achim http://users.skynet.be/AchimT

I have, IL2FB AEP Eech NR2003 F1C w/ updated season MSFS 2002 CFS3 Need for Speed Underground GPL with most mods NOLF 2 No SF drivers here either, whew.. -- Don Burnette Mitch_A wrote: > I only have IL2-FB/Aces, GTR PDemo, RBR Demo and NR2003 on my gaming > rig and I dont have any SF drivers. > > Mitch > > > "Swervo" <[email hidden]> wrote in message >> I've got IL2:FB and the Ace expansion pack installed, and I do see >> Starforce drivers in my device manager. However, I can't guarantee >> that IL2 is what installed them. Guess I need to read up on how to >> get rid of these things...

Joachim Trensz <[email hidden]> wrote in news:2svqqjF1q862qU3@uni- berlin.de:

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> JP wrote: > ... >> Ah, another crusade in the making. Hope it turns out better than your >> last one dealing with track creation. > > We should be grateful Steve is drawing our attention to this issue. It > might account for strange symptoms on many systems the cause of which > the users have never found, according to what the article says.

Yet another reason to: - not work with administrator rights - use InCtrl when installing programs (not that it protects vs StarForce, but at least you'd know it got installed right away). Alex.

alexti wrote: ... > Yet another reason to: > - not work with administrator rights > - use InCtrl when installing programs (not that it protects vs StarForce, > but at least you'd know it got installed right away).... True. AAMOF, I do use InCtrl5. A very valuable tool. -- Achim http://users.skynet.be/AchimT

Steve Smith wrote: > There have been a few posts in usegroups abt. which files (.dll's, I think) > were involved. If you can't find 'em, I'll look again.... Thank you Steve. AAMOF I did find protect.dll in the X2 directory. Neither of my two Registries showed any sign of 'protect.dll' or 'starforce' though, and neither did the inis, so I guess it doesn't get loaded on my system except when the protected prog starts. -- Achim http://users.skynet.be/AchimT

> Found one instance in the X2 directory! Shock! Horror! You guys are paranoid. SF cleaner gets rid of it - not that it does anything anyway....

> Yeah, maybe he has *this* one right, eh ? 'Fraid not. Starforce 3 is one of the most harmless programs around. Just about all of the 'scare' posts about it on internet forums are by frustrated warez kiddies.

Steve Simpson <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > > Yeah, maybe he has *this* one right, eh ? > > 'Fraid not. Starforce 3 is one of the most harmless programs around.Just > about all of the 'scare' posts about it on internet forums are byfrustrated > warez kiddies. Hehe, yeah, I know. Can't wait for the next crusade in a month or so though.

"Steve Simpson" <[email hidden]> kirjoitti viestiss�:[email hidden]... >> Yeah, maybe he has *this* one right, eh ? > > 'Fraid not. Starforce 3 is one of the most harmless programs around. > Just about all of the 'scare' posts about it on internet forums are by > frustrated warez kiddies. As a program, it is completely harmless and does the job it was designed to do very well. You are missing the big picture, though. One must fight for consumer rights and protection, before it is too late. That is not crying for warez! We could well have Microsoft Palladium right now, and who would like that? [ "Palladium is a system that combines software and hardware controls to create a "trusted" computing platform. In doing so, it would establish an unprecedented level of control over users and their computers." http://www.epic.org/privacy/consumer/microsoft/palladium.html or google for microsoft palladium ] *Why does Starforce3 install without any notice to the user? as if it is trying to hide something? -> a consumer believes he is only installing a game, not a device driver unless he is told so in the packaging of the game BEFORE making the purchase. Basically a starforce logo on the game box would be enough. *Why does it install itself as hidden (at least in device manager) driver ? as if it is trying to hide something? -> it could have been installed as a driver with a standard visibility in device manager *Why does it not uninstall with the game? as if it is trying to remain hidden on users system? -> when we do not have the source code, and it is trying to be and remain hidden forever, how can we be sure that is not any kind of spyware solution? For all we know, every piece of software could be spyware if this argument was to be carefully examined, but usual software do not act suspiciously and try to remain hidden... those are usually the characteristics for a spying software or a trojan. A design bug in the sofware can also be that if there are more than one protected games installed, the uninstallation of the game would not have any way to know if there is anything needing the driver anymore - but that would be compensated for a clear warning screen that the driver has been left installed. We see no such thing with Starforce3. *(Applies at least here in Finland, check your local law for confirmation) When consumer buys a game from a retailer, he basicly buys a license to use that software on x number of computers; usually x=1. Therefore consumer can, by law, make a backup copy for his own use, if he only uses the software on x number of computers. If consumer now breaks his original copy, he still has the right to use the software, and if the game has unbreakable copy protection (starforce3 seems to be one of the first succesfull ones in that, humble congratulations for the inventors! :) ), he can't use the software. So the consumer has to acquire a second working copy of the game. If he had a backup, he would already have that. Consumer should not need to buy a second original copy, because he already has a license. In any way the consumer gets the broken media replaced, he is going to have to pay for it, both in time (missed league races come in to my mind) AND in costs of transportation of the consumer himself to a retailer and back, or phoning the retailer, or contacting the distributor, or in worst case, sending the broken media to somewhere with own expense via snail mail and waiting at least some days to get new media back. Consider if the mailing has damaged the new media as well? How is consumer compensated for all this lost of time and money? oh.. by current standards, he is not compensated. How fair is that? Keep in mind the price of a single cd-r or dvd-r disk which amounts to ~ 0. Do you know see the bigger picture? I repeat: As a program, it is completely harmless and does the job it was designed to do very well. -- Mika Takala ^still not a warez kiddie

"JP" wrote...

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>>> <snip> >> 'Fraid not. Starforce 3 is one of the most harmless >> programs around. >> Just about all of the 'scare' posts about it on >> internet forums are by frustrated warez kiddies. > > Hehe, yeah, I know. Can't wait for the next crusade > in a month or so though.

I'm not sure I agree, maybe it's harmless(*) and only active when the game is running in X2's case. On my system it got installed along with the CMR4.0 demo and it did load services whether I played the demo or not. Even when inactive these things consume resources on my PC, if only to move them from memory to the swapfile when windows needs more free memory. I never got any indication I was also installing this copy protection scheme with the demo and, what's more, it didn't get removed when I uninstalled the demo either. It may actually be harmless, but I'm really jumpy about orphaned programs running on my PC. Especially ones that can communicate with hardware without Windows knowing about it. If that's not actually illegal because of the "disclaimer for anything that might possibly result from using our badly coded crap" (read EULA), it should be. Nobody bothers to read a EULA on a game they bought, let alone on a flipping demo off a magazine cover. Jan. =--- (*) Rem.: actually, nothing that circumvents the way XP handles hardware can be considered harmless, IMO, as it can take the system down with it.

On Mon, 11 Oct 2004 08:25:09 -0700, Swervo <[email hidden]> wrote: >I've got IL2:FB and the Ace expansion pack installed, and I do see >Starforce drivers in my device manager. However, I can't guarantee >that IL2 is what installed them. Guess I need to read up on how to get >rid of these things... No point in getting rid of them if you plan to play any game that put them there. It will just put them back next time you run the game. The game won't run with them removed. So I read anyway.

That was the claim by the Evil Empire that distributes this plague. "Joachim Trensz" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > Steve Smith wrote: > > There have been a few posts in usegroups abt. which files (.dll's, Ithink)

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> > were involved. If you can't find 'em, I'll look again. > ... > > Thank you Steve. AAMOF I did find protect.dll in the X2 directory. > Neither of my two Registries showed any sign of 'protect.dll' or > 'starforce' though, and neither did the inis, so I guess it doesn't get > loaded on my system except when the protected prog starts. > > -- > Achim > http://users.skynet.be/AchimT

American conquest Army men Breed Broken Sword 3 Codename Outbreak Cossacks Curse Cycling Manager 3. That's just A-C and they are all listed on gamecopyworld. _____ Steve "Military intelligence, two words combined that can't make sense." Mika Takala wrote:

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> "Edgecrusher" <[email hidden]> kirjoitti > viestiss�:[email hidden]... > >>Not really, all they've done is ensure people who want to buy the game >>will have to download it to avoid having starforce dumped on their system. >> >>_____ >> >>Steve > > > So tell me, how many starforce-protected games have been cracked (=nocd-exe > available)? >

"Steve Simpson" <[email hidden]> wrote in news:[email hidden]: >> Yeah, maybe he has *this* one right, eh ? > > 'Fraid not. Starforce 3 is one of the most harmless programs around. Does your conclusion have any reasons? Device driver is always more dangerous than user-mode application, because it can bring down the system with it if it has a bug. And where have you seen software without bugs? User-mode can't bring OS down (at least not supposed to do, but of course there're bugs in OS itself, so it's possible, but much less probable). Alex.

"Steve Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote in news:u9zad.292866$[email hidden]:

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> > From a Star Force employee(!): > > Seems you dont have a clue about copy protection scheme at all. > > 1. The driver is just a way to communicate your CD drive, directly. > I.e. ensures requests can't be spoofed by emulators.

Yep. > 2. The driver remains INACTIVE unless you START the protected game. > (like a driver for some external USB device, unless you plug thing in) > 3. The driver automatically DEACTIVATES and stops any activity when you > exit the protected game.I wonder what he means by 'INACTIVE'? Is it loaded in the memory or not? Easy way to check is try to delete the driver from the disk (on Windows, OS will forbid deleting the file if it's in use) > 4. The driver DOES NOT affect your burning programs IN ANY WAY. _Never > meant to_. _Because - absolutelly no need_.Unless due to bug. Including bug in burning software (which is not uncommon). > 5. To sum up, driver is just a guaranteed way to see if the currently > inserted disc in drive is leagal or not.'guaranteed' - that's a bit optimistic. > There is no other logic like blacklisting software, prevention to make > (burn) copies, dialing home. AT ALL.Dialing home is something relatively easy to verify. Just check logs on your router (hardware or another PC). Or firewall logs on the same PC (though it is less certain method)

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> > Regarding to the protected programs and installation: > > After applying the protection to the product, the scheme becames part > of the product. Like other third party Sound System engine DLL file. It > is integral part of the game from now, the game wont run without it, > its bound to it. > > So, when you agree to install the game, it installs whatever it > requires for it's execution. Why dont you complain about game does not > warn you that third party Rendering Engine DLL or Speech Transfer > Technology DLL are installed? How about some Background Textures, Sound > Files etc.??

I wonder if the requirements for those game mention administrator privileges? I don't think one will be able to install such a game without administrator access.

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> > As for the "driver" itself, it's the ONLY and legally documented way in > WindowsNT to acquire the privileges NEED for the Copy Protection. > Without these privileges it would be easy to crack it. It is just an > apropriate tool. Like when you gonna fix your hand-watches you dont use > a hammer. Driver is THE MOST APROPRIATE and i repeat the LEGAL tool for > implementing efficient Copy Protection schemes under NT.

Technically, the driver is the most appropriate method for that kind of protection. I don't know about legally, but in legal area it's usually safe guess to say it depends on the county and time ;) Alex.

"Steve Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote in news:Gread.291649$[email hidden]: > > Also they apparently include this protection with the demos of some of > these games ??? > > Why ? > because some demos, like those belonging the ISI F1 series, can be mildly tweeked to also run the full sim's tracks. and because some copy protection companies are just plain A$$$$$$$$!!! dave henrie

> It may actually be harmless, but I'm really jumpy about orphaned programs > running on my PC. Especially ones that can communicate with hardware > without Windows knowing about it. Microsoft were consulted in its development. In fact, the drivers are WHQL certified.

Starforce 3 is just another copy protection - they've been around for years. This one's only causing such a commotion because no one has figured out a way around it.

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>>> Yeah, maybe he has *this* one right, eh ? >> >> 'Fraid not. Starforce 3 is one of the most harmless programs around. > Does your conclusion have any reasons? Device driver is always more > dangerous than user-mode application, because it can bring down the system > with it if it has a bug. And where have you seen software without bugs? > User-mode can't bring OS down (at least not supposed to do, but of course > there're bugs in OS itself, so it's possible, but much less probable).

As I've said in another post, the drivers are WHQL certified. The GTR betas (with Starforce 3) have been under testing for a long time now and none of the beta testers have reported any system issues with Starforce 3.

"Steve Simpson" <[email hidden]> wrote in news:[email hidden]: > As I've said in another post, the drivers are WHQL certified. The GTR > betas (with Starforce 3) have been under testing for a long time now > and none of the beta testers have reported any system issues with > Starforce 3. > The Bullrun Tornado alley track was tested over and over by experienced racers. In less than 1 minute a bad racer...me...found a wall mismatch that flung my car 30 feet backwards. Just because 'testers' have not reported any bad effects does not mean they don't exit. The SCC launcher was tested by everyone on the RSDG team, and it worked perfectly. Upon release, many users found that it had a fault which took 2 months to trace. These are but two examples. I'm sure those who are real beta testers with past programs could relate many undisclosed problems that either survived the beta process or came to light after shipping. I have no experience with SF copy protection...please don't call it just 'drivers' but I imagine I will when GTR ships. A shame really that such draconian measures must be used. I for one feel the user has every right to know what is going on his system and should have every right to remove unauthorized products. Anyone who hides code on a user's hard drive is no more lawful than a company like Bridgestone placing a GPS tracker somewhere on everycar that buys their tires. dave henrie

Steve Simpson wrote:

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>>Found one instance in the X2 directory! > > > Shock! Horror! > > You guys are paranoid. SF cleaner gets rid of it - not that it does > anything anyway.... > >

You have too much fantasy and interpret things into simple words which are not there :) -- Achim http://users.skynet.be/AchimT

Jan Verschueren wrote: ... > It may actually be harmless, but I'm really jumpy about orphaned programs > running on my PC. Especially ones that can communicate with hardware without > Windows knowing about it.... Especially the fact that it came with a demo (!) and didn't get deinstalled when you deinstalled the demo it came with is annoying and inacceptable. -- Achim http://users.skynet.be/AchimT

Steve Simpson wrote: > Starforce 3 is just another copy protection - they've been around for years. > This one's only causing such a commotion because no one has figured out a > way around it. > > I don't use any pirated software, I even pay for shareware programs if I use them beyond the trial period. I am very honest and diligent WRT paying someone for the work he does. I.e., I don't have anything against copy protection schemes. What I do dislike though is if someone fiddles around with things that are mine, secretly, covertly, and perhaps even messes up the proper functionality (which the broadband report Steve pointed to indicates SF can do). Like Mika says - why is it hidden, why does it remain on the system, etc. Those are things I just don't like. In all fairness, though, considering that apparently X2 did not install it on my system whereas the CMR4 demo did install it on Jan's, I wonder whether when it gets installed into the system as a hidden device, this is more a decision of the programmer of the installer (i.e. the publisher of the game??) than of the SF programmers, and hence the one who perhaps needed to be blamed is not SF, but those who create/publish the game? -- Achim http://users.skynet.be/AchimT

"Edgecrusher" <[email hidden]> kirjoitti viestiss�:[email hidden]...

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> American conquest > Army men > Breed > Broken Sword 3 > Codename Outbreak > Cossacks > Curse > Cycling Manager 3. > > That's just A-C and they are all listed on gamecopyworld.

They are old enough not to use Starforce3 but an older version. Toca Race Driver 2 just got a nocd mini-image on sunday, it seems. How long ago was it released anyway? :) -- Mika Takala

> wonder whether when it gets installed into the system as a hidden device, > this is more a decision of the programmer of the installer (i.e. the > publisher of the game??) than of the SF programmers, and hence the one who > perhaps needed to be blamed is not SF, but those who create/publish the > game? > That is completely a SF programmers software design decision. The driver is just designed that way and the publisher doesn't have any saying in how the driver installs after the protection is applied as the driver is 100% Starforce code. A publisher usually just cares that the protection actually works, in which SF3 is very good. -- Mika Takala

On Mon, 11 Oct 2004 17:36:39 +0300, Mika Takala wrote:

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>> (and ppl are complaining how complicated LFS registration system is... >> seems like a better option to me) >> -- >> - Jussi Koukku - > > That's how I feel too. >

Same here. I'd much prefer the "activation" scheme used by LFS over this thingy, because as we all know CD's *will* break eventually. Cheers, uwe -- mail replies to Uwe at schuerkamp dot de ( yahoo address is spambox) Uwe Schuerkamp //////////////////////////// http://www.schuerkamp.de/ Herford, Germany \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ (52.0N/8.5E) GPG Fingerprint: 2E 13 20 22 9A 3F 63 7F 67 6F E9 B1 A8 36 A4 61

"Steve Simpson" <[email hidden]> wrote in news:[email hidden]:

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>>>> Yeah, maybe he has *this* one right, eh ? >>> >>> 'Fraid not. Starforce 3 is one of the most harmless programs around. >> Does your conclusion have any reasons? Device driver is always more >> dangerous than user-mode application, because it can bring down the >> system with it if it has a bug. And where have you seen software >> without bugs? User-mode can't bring OS down (at least not supposed to >> do, but of course there're bugs in OS itself, so it's possible, but >> much less probable). > > As I've said in another post, the drivers are WHQL certified. The GTR > betas (with Starforce 3) have been under testing for a long time now > and none of the beta testers have reported any system issues with > Starforce 3.

As you've probably noticed, bug after bug is discovered in Microsoft's own software. Why do you think MS certification of SF driver would guarantee the absense of bugs there? Alex.

Shhhh. Dont tell Larry that Uwe :)) "Uwe Sch�rkamp" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

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> > Same here. I'd much prefer the "activation" scheme used by LFS over > this thingy, because as we all know CD's *will* break eventually. > > Cheers, > uwe > > -- > mail replies to Uwe at schuerkamp dot de ( yahoo address is spambox) > Uwe Schuerkamp //////////////////////////// http://www.schuerkamp.de/ > Herford, Germany \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ (52.0N/8.5E) > GPG Fingerprint: 2E 13 20 22 9A 3F 63 7F 67 6F E9 B1 A8 36 A4 61

> As you've probably noticed, bug after bug is discovered in Microsoft's own > software. Why do you think MS certification of SF driver would guarantee > the absense of bugs there? Yes, my last crash in Windows XP was only about 4 months ago and I only use it aout 10 hours per day.

Mika Takala wrote:

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>>wonder whether when it gets installed into the system as a hidden device, >>this is more a decision of the programmer of the installer (i.e. the >>publisher of the game??) than of the SF programmers, and hence the one who >>perhaps needed to be blamed is not SF, but those who create/publish the >>game? >> > > > That is completely a SF programmers software design decision. The driver is > just designed that way and the publisher doesn't have any saying in how the > driver installs after the protection is applied as the driver is 100% > Starforce code. A publisher usually just cares that the protection actually > works, in which SF3 is very good. >

I'm just wondering why SF apparently does not get installed by some software (X2 on my system) while with other software it does get installed as hidden drivers? -- Achim http://users.skynet.be/AchimT

On Wed, 13 Oct 2004 06:57:30 +1000, Steve Simpson wrote: >> As you've probably noticed, bug after bug is discovered in Microsoft's own >> software. Why do you think MS certification of SF driver would guarantee >> the absense of bugs there? > > Yes, my last crash in Windows XP was only about 4 months ago and I only use > it aout 10 hours per day. Bugs don't necessarily lead to system crashes, but to remote exploits, takeovers, stealing of private data, whatever. Crashed windows machines ususally don't harm anyone (except the bloke sitting in front of the tube ;-), while those taken over by remote exploits can and will do harm by serving as spam relays, participating in DDOS attacks and whatnot. It's great to hear your XP hasn't crashed in a while, but OTOH XP's security track record is right up there with win9x, IE and the likes. All the best, uwe -- mail replies to Uwe at schuerkamp dot de ( yahoo address is spambox) Uwe Schuerkamp //////////////////////////// http://www.schuerkamp.de/ Herford, Germany \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ (52.0N/8.5E) GPG Fingerprint: 2E 13 20 22 9A 3F 63 7F 67 6F E9 B1 A8 36 A4 61

On Tue, 12 Oct 2004 19:58:12 GMT, Mitch_A wrote: > Shhhh. Dont tell Larry that Uwe :)) > What happened to Larry, the poor bloke? ;-) cheers, uwe -- mail replies to Uwe at schuerkamp dot de ( yahoo address is spambox) Uwe Schuerkamp //////////////////////////// http://www.schuerkamp.de/ Herford, Germany \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ (52.0N/8.5E) GPG Fingerprint: 2E 13 20 22 9A 3F 63 7F 67 6F E9 B1 A8 36 A4 61

Uwe =?iso-8859-15?Q?Sch=FCrkamp?= <[email hidden]> wrote in news:[email hidden]:

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> On Wed, 13 Oct 2004 06:57:30 +1000, Steve Simpson wrote: >>> As you've probably noticed, bug after bug is discovered in >>> Microsoft's own software. Why do you think MS certification of SF >>> driver would guarantee the absense of bugs there? >> >> Yes, my last crash in Windows XP was only about 4 months ago and I >> only use it aout 10 hours per day. > > Bugs don't necessarily lead to system crashes, but to remote exploits, > takeovers, stealing of private data, whatever.

Right, that's where is the most danger. Crashing is not that big deal. At least it's much more preferrable than takeover.

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> > Crashed windows machines ususally don't harm anyone (except the bloke > sitting in front of the tube ;-), while those taken over by remote > exploits can and will do harm by serving as spam relays, participating > in DDOS attacks and whatnot. > > It's great to hear your XP hasn't crashed in a while, but OTOH XP's > security track record is right up there with win9x, IE and the likes.

Actually, it's much worse than Win9x. Win9x is pretty isolated and it also tends to crash at the first signs of something going wrong ;) Alex.

"Steve Simpson" <[email hidden]> wrote in news:[email hidden]: >> As you've probably noticed, bug after bug is discovered in Microsoft's >> own software. Why do you think MS certification of SF driver would >> guarantee the absense of bugs there? > > Yes, my last crash in Windows XP was only about 4 months ago and I only > use it aout 10 hours per day.Is it supposed to be a good reliability record? And just read Microsoft's security bulletins and don't think your computer is immune by some magic. Take for example, GDI+ JPEG exploit. Neither firewall nor antivirus would protect you from it. The reason your computer is not hijacked (and I hope it is not) is because nobody bothered. Alex.

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>>> As you've probably noticed, bug after bug is discovered in Microsoft's >>> own software. Why do you think MS certification of SF driver would >>> guarantee the absense of bugs there? >> >> Yes, my last crash in Windows XP was only about 4 months ago and I only >> use it aout 10 hours per day. > Is it supposed to be a good reliability record? And just read Microsoft's > security bulletins and don't think your computer is immune by some magic. > Take for example, GDI+ JPEG exploit. Neither firewall nor antivirus would > protect you from it. The reason your computer is not hijacked (and I hope > it is not) is because nobody bothered.

My PC isn't immune and neither is anybody elses. If some hacker wants to take a crack a my PC then good luck to them. They may actually force me to spend 5 minutes restoring my ghost backup image...

"Steve Simpson" <[email hidden]> wrote in news:[email hidden]:

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>>>> As you've probably noticed, bug after bug is discovered in >>>> Microsoft's own software. Why do you think MS certification of SF >>>> driver would guarantee the absense of bugs there? >>> >>> Yes, my last crash in Windows XP was only about 4 months ago and I >>> only use it aout 10 hours per day. >> Is it supposed to be a good reliability record? And just read >> Microsoft's security bulletins and don't think your computer is immune >> by some magic. Take for example, GDI+ JPEG exploit. Neither firewall >> nor antivirus would protect you from it. The reason your computer is >> not hijacked (and I hope it is not) is because nobody bothered. > > My PC isn't immune and neither is anybody elses. If some hacker wants > to take a crack a my PC then good luck to them. They may actually > force me to spend 5 minutes restoring my ghost backup image...

Hmm... Now a question. How do you know that your StarForce driver is not replaced by some cunning trojan, that mask itself as a StarForce driver and waiting its hour? And how much good your backup will do after the hackers have already "borrowed" your data? Alex.

alexti wrote: ... > Hmm... Now a question. How do you know that your StarForce driver is not > replaced by some cunning trojan, that mask itself as a StarForce driver and > waiting its hour? > > And how much good your backup will do after the hackers have > already "borrowed" your data?... One thing I keep wondering about, with all this discussion about security and the obvious shortcomings. Everybody seems to agree that all of the widely used security measures, be they updates from Microsoft or Firewalls, are fairly insufficient and can and will be overcome fairly easily by some malevolent script kiddie or ingenious hacker. There's one fairly safe protection method though which very likely cannot be overcome (and has never overcome by the exploits, worms and virusses I've tested on it) and that's a Sandbox. But nobody seems to use Sandboxes, although they work extremely well and are to my knowledge the safest safeguard you can have on your computer. Why does nobody used them (except me)? -- Achim http://users.skynet.be/AchimT

> And how much good your backup will do after the hackers have > already "borrowed" your data? Like anyone would want my data. There's nothing exciting on my PC...

He had some issues with LFS and its registration. "Uwe Sch�rkamp" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

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>> > > What happened to Larry, the poor bloke? ;-) > > cheers, > > uwe > > > -- > mail replies to Uwe at schuerkamp dot de ( yahoo address is spambox) > Uwe Schuerkamp //////////////////////////// http://www.schuerkamp.de/ > Herford, Germany \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ (52.0N/8.5E) > GPG Fingerprint: 2E 13 20 22 9A 3F 63 7F 67 6F E9 B1 A8 36 A4 61

Im not saying XP is the Fort Knox of OS's but its a sight more secure than W98 which had zero security. One issue that has a direct relationship to security is backwards compatibility. Heck I just threw in a proggy called 3D Home Architect circa 1993 into my XP box the other day and viola, it worked flawlessly, even printing. Mitch "Uwe Sch�rkamp" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > It's great to hear your XP hasn't crashed in a while, but OTOH XP's

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> security track record is right up there with win9x, IE and the likes. > > All the best, > > uwe > > > > -- > mail replies to Uwe at schuerkamp dot de ( yahoo address is spambox) > Uwe Schuerkamp //////////////////////////// http://www.schuerkamp.de/ > Herford, Germany \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ (52.0N/8.5E) > GPG Fingerprint: 2E 13 20 22 9A 3F 63 7F 67 6F E9 B1 A8 36 A4 61

Anyone that runs Java is technically in a "Sandbox". Mitch "Steve Simpson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... >> And how much good your backup will do after the hackers have >> already "borrowed" your data? > > Like anyone would want my data. There's nothing exciting on my PC... >

On Wed, 13 Oct 2004 16:06:02 GMT, Mitch_A wrote: > He had some issues with LFS and its registration. Are you sure that wasn't also with corners going, like, the other way, like right? ;-> *me ducks for flame-proof cover* Uwe -- mail replies to Uwe at schuerkamp dot de ( yahoo address is spambox) Uwe Schuerkamp //////////////////////////// http://www.schuerkamp.de/ Herford, Germany \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ (52.0N/8.5E) GPG Fingerprint: 2E 13 20 22 9A 3F 63 7F 67 6F E9 B1 A8 36 A4 61

alexti <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> "Steve Simpson" <[email hidden]> wrote in > news:[email hidden]: > > >>>> As you've probably noticed, bug after bug is discovered in > >>>> Microsoft's own software. Why do you think MS certification of SF > >>>> driver would guarantee the absense of bugs there? > >>> > >>> Yes, my last crash in Windows XP was only about 4 months ago and I > >>> only use it aout 10 hours per day. > >> Is it supposed to be a good reliability record? And just read > >> Microsoft's security bulletins and don't think your computer is immune > >> by some magic. Take for example, GDI+ JPEG exploit. Neither firewall > >> nor antivirus would protect you from it. The reason your computer is > >> not hijacked (and I hope it is not) is because nobody bothered. > > > > My PC isn't immune and neither is anybody elses. If some hacker wants > > to take a crack a my PC then good luck to them. They may actually > > force me to spend 5 minutes restoring my ghost backup image... > Hmm... Now a question. How do you know that your StarForce driver is not > replaced by some cunning trojan, that mask itself as a StarForce driver

and > waiting its hour? > > And how much good your backup will do after the hackers have > already "borrowed" your data? > > Alex. Sound of black helicopters circling overhead.....

Joachim Trensz <[email hidden]> wrote in news:[email hidden]:

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> alexti wrote: > ... >> Hmm... Now a question. How do you know that your StarForce driver is >> not replaced by some cunning trojan, that mask itself as a StarForce >> driver and waiting its hour? >> >> And how much good your backup will do after the hackers have >> already "borrowed" your data? > ... > One thing I keep wondering about, with all this discussion about > security and the obvious shortcomings. > > Everybody seems to agree that all of the widely used security measures, > be they updates from Microsoft or Firewalls, are fairly insufficient > and can and will be overcome fairly easily by some malevolent script > kiddie or ingenious hacker.

Script kiddies are not a danger if you don't use programs like IE, OE, Win XP etc. If you run totally stripped XP or better some bare-bone OS like Win9x, you should be "reasonably" safe. Considering that Win9x requires zero open ports, the danger may only come from the inside (which is significantly reduced by eliminating main offenders - IE and company). Of course, any software may have its own vulnerabilities, so it's always trade off between having some functionality you want and taking the risk. One way to handle it is to drastically reduce number of application allowed to handle external resources (email, web pages etc).

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> There's one fairly safe protection method though which very likely > cannot be overcome (and has never overcome by the exploits, worms and > virusses I've tested on it) and that's a Sandbox. But nobody seems to > use Sandboxes, although they work extremely well and are to my > knowledge the safest safeguard you can have on your computer. > > Why does nobody used them (except me)?

Do you have any links? I didn't even know you could run sandbox on Windows:( It certainly sound interesting. Not that I'm very interested in running Windows in particular, but all those damned games... ;) Alex.

alexti wrote: .... > Do you have any links? I didn't even know you could run sandbox on > Windows:( It certainly sound interesting. Not that I'm very interested in > running Windows in particular, but all those damned games... ;) > > Alex. > I'm using Tiny Trojan Trap (and have been using it for several years). It is very good. Gives you excellent and extremely detailed control over the system, and integrates seamlessly and without any problems with the OS. But they seem to have gone out of business. The only Sandbox I currently know of for Windows is SurfingGuard from Finjan: http://www.finjan.com/products/HomeUsersSurfinGuardPro/default.asp but I have no idea how good it is. As long as TTT remains compatible with the OS I'm using (currently Win2k) I'll keep using it. -- Achim http://users.skynet.be/AchimT

Something I just started using and I'm very impressed with is Giant AntiSpyware. Protects the system from not only Adware and Trojans but has a plethora of system security features. It also indentifies all the security holes in Windows, IE OE and gives you the option of closing them down or controlling there access. There is a free demo. http://www.giantcompany.com/(p5eamcuncitkc2rco11yogrf)/p_antispyware.aspx You also might want to look at Peer Guardian to block all web based intrusions. http://www.methlabs.org/methlabs.htm Pete "Joachim Trensz" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> alexti wrote: > I'm using Tiny Trojan Trap (and have been using it for several years). > It is very good. Gives you excellent and extremely detailed control over > the system, and integrates seamlessly and without any problems with the > OS. But they seem to have gone out of business. > > The only Sandbox I currently know of for Windows is SurfingGuard from > Finjan: > > http://www.finjan.com/products/HomeUsersSurfinGuardPro/default.asp > > but I have no idea how good it is. As long as TTT remains compatible > with the OS I'm using (currently Win2k) I'll keep using it. > > -- > Achim > http://users.skynet.be/AchimT

Joachim Trensz <[email hidden]> wrote in news:[email hidden]:

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> alexti wrote: > ... >> Do you have any links? I didn't even know you could run sandbox on >> Windows:( It certainly sound interesting. Not that I'm very interested >> in running Windows in particular, but all those damned games... ;) >> >> Alex. >> > I'm using Tiny Trojan Trap (and have been using it for several years). > It is very good. Gives you excellent and extremely detailed control > over the system, and integrates seamlessly and without any problems > with the OS. But they seem to have gone out of business.

Tiny Software is still well, AFAIK. I'm using and I like their firewall, but on their site there's no mention of Trojan Trap. I wonder why they've discontinued it. > The only Sandbox I currently know of for Windows is SurfingGuard from > Finjan: > > http://www.finjan.com/products/HomeUsersSurfinGuardPro/default.aspI checked it, it doesn't look overly impressive though :(. Mostly, because they give no technical details and concentrate on pushing the fact that they plug IE/OE/ActiveX holes. It leaves question how well they can deal with the "apparently legit" executable running on the machine. Hopefully, they've just forgot to mention it. It may be worthwhile to try, but I'm still undecided. I wonder if Linux/WineX path may be easier (which would also allow to run a bunch of useful software). Alex.

alexti wrote: ...

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> I checked it, it doesn't look overly impressive though :(. Mostly, because > they give no technical details and concentrate on pushing the fact that > they plug IE/OE/ActiveX holes. It leaves question how well they can deal > with the "apparently legit" executable running on the machine. Hopefully, > they've just forgot to mention it. It may be worthwhile to try, but I'm > still undecided. I wonder if Linux/WineX path may be easier (which would > also allow to run a bunch of useful software).

Yes, I know, Finjan doesn't provide much detail. I hope, like you, that they're simply not mentioning it because they don't want to shy anyone away. After all, a Sandbox can, if the factory config is good, be extremely easy to use, even for less computer savvy folks and the average user doesn't need to bother much with details. Tiny Trojan Trap OTOH really gives you full control. It's a shame it's been discontinued. They could at least continue to sell it if they don't want to update it, because at least under W2k it runs flawlessly. Maybe Tiny can help you find TTT or even sell it to you directly. I only knew they've discontinued it, and since they - at least that's what it looked like to me - sold their Firewall to Kerio, I wasn't sure they still existed. Why don't you write them an email. I'd give it a try. -- Achim http://users.skynet.be/AchimT

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] (alexti) writes: >Yet another reason to: >- not work with administrator rights But, 'normal' user accounts can't install programs that modify the registry, right? >- use InCtrl when installing programs (not that it protects vs StarForce, >but at least you'd know it got installed right away). Don't know this one, I'll have to look for it. Eldred -- http://www.umich.edu/~epickett Screamers League IICC League GPLRank -6.0 MoGPL rank +267.80 Ch.Rank +52.58 MoC +741.71 Hist. +82.34 MoH:na N2k3 rank: -1.047 Slayer Spektera lvl 79 assassin Slayer Spectral_K lvl 44 Necro US East

[email hidden] (EldredP) wrote in news:[email hidden]:

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> In article <[email hidden]>, > [email hidden] (alexti) writes: > >>Yet another reason to: >>- not work with administrator rights > > But, 'normal' user accounts can't install programs that modify the > registry, right?

Genereally, they can modify the registry, but only that user's section, not local machine settings or all users defaults. > >>- use InCtrl when installing programs (not that it protects vs >>StarForce, but at least you'd know it got installed right away). > > Don't know this one, I'll have to look for it.InCtrl5 : http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,4149,9882,00.asp Alex.