ICR2 = No Big Deal...Read On!

Well, managed to get the demo from ftp.std.com (contrary to what everyone was saying earlier today, I DIDN'T get a "permission denied" message). Anyway, I digress. Simply put (just like Nascar) if you don't have a Pentium, don't bother with the SVGA mode. I have a DX4-100, 16 mb RAM, ATI Graphics Xpression VLB graphics card and even with a clean boot I got ch-ch-choppy performance unless pretty well all the graphics are turned off (and no, the UniVBE driver didn't work with my graphics card - it detected fine but the frame rate was worse). VGA mode was nice and smooth but it doesn't look much different than Indycar I (which I already have plus the track pack). After about 30 minutes playing it didn't feel or drive much differently than Indycar I either. I am going to pass this one up for now (until I get a Pentium - which won't be anytime soon). I think that there "recommended" system, a Pentium 60 (see the readme.txt file), is far short of the "optimum" system for SVGA. My system benchs about 65 which is very close to a Pentium 60. I can only think that mean a Pentium 60 is the "optimum" system for VGA graphics. This baby is going to need a Pentium 90 or better. If Papyrus is reading this...GET A CLUE! I HATE it when software companies "soft pedal" the hardware requirements for their products. Sure I can see a 486-33 as the "minumum" system(see the readme.txt file) to get this prog going in VGA but why don't you base your "optimum" hardware requirements on the "optimum" graphics setting (i.e. SVGA)? (especially when the SVGA option is the main difference/upgrade in this game over Indycar I). At least you had the decency to release a demo that allowed me to evaluate it on my system and come to the obvious conclusion that if I have Indycar I, I don't need Indycar II (for now). Flame-ON, Johnny! KaBoNG!

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>>Simply put (just like Nascar) if you don't have a Pentium, don't bother >>with the SVGA mode. >WOW. Pretty rad statement. >>I have a DX4-100, 16 mb RAM, ATI Graphics Xpression >>VLB graphics card and even with a clean boot I got ch-ch-choppy performance >>unless pretty well all the graphics are turned off (and no, the UniVBE >>driver didn't work with my graphics card - it detected fine but the frame >>rate was worse). >I'm sure you are disappointed with the performance you describe from YOUR >486, but as MANY people can assure you, it runs like a RABBIT on their >486's. I have a 486DX2-66, with nice video card (spider tarantula 64 bit).

Add me to the list of people who is VERY impressed by the demo. My system is a 486DX2/66 8 Meg RAM and VLB Tseng4000w32p video card. The SVGA was surprisingly FAST and was very playable, and is the main reason that I will be buying it. (Improved AI is the other) If you are having problems with the SVGA speed, make sure that you tried choosing in the setup to install the univbe.drv it makes a big difference. I was so surprised with the improvement that I went and FTP'ed the full UNIVBE51 product to see if it would do the same for Nascar. No it didn't improve it much and the FTP'ed univbe51 version was actually slower with ICR2.0 than the univbe.drv that papyrus includes with the demo, so maybe they really tweaked out the SVGA modes in their version, but whatever papyrus did, it is the fastest SVGA performance on my system of any game I have seen so far. Now all I want to know is when it will be in the stores, I am itching to drive my favorite track Long Beach. -- John (King of the Beach) -- +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | "Booze is the answer... I forget the question." -- Humphrey Bogart | |---------------------------------------------------------------------------| | http://www.wolfe.net/~kludger | +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+

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>I am going to pass this one up for now (until I get a Pentium - which >won't be anytime soon). I think that there "recommended" system, a >Pentium 60 (see the readme.txt file), is far short of the "optimum" >system for SVGA. My system benchs about 65 which is very close to a >Pentium 60. I can only think that mean a Pentium 60 is the "optimum" >system for VGA graphics. This baby is going to need a Pentium 90 or better. >If Papyrus is reading this...GET A CLUE! I HATE it when software >companies "soft pedal" the hardware requirements for their products. Sure >I can see a 486-33 as the "minumum" system(see the readme.txt file) to get >this prog going in VGA but why don't you base your "optimum" hardware >requirements on the "optimum" graphics setting (i.e. SVGA)? (especially when >the SVGA option is the main difference/upgrade in this game over Indycar I). >At least you had the decency to release a demo that allowed me to evaluate it >on my system and come to the obvious conclusion that if I have Indycar I, I >don't need Indycar II (for now). >Flame-ON, Johnny!

I am not Johnny, but remember that the CPU chip is not the only factor in the speed of graphics on the screen. Just because the game in your opion sucks on YOUR Pentium 60 machine doesn't mean it will on everyone's Pentium 60. It seems to work fine on the P-60's, DX2-75's and DX2-100's I've seen it on. But they also were nicely configured (properly matched video cards, RAM and most importantly, quality motherboards) Don't expect the game to run as smooth on a Fukshitzu Pentium 60 as it would on a better known model. Ralf

My system benchs about 65 which is very close to a Pentium 60. I can only think that mean a Pentium 60 is the "optimum" system for VGA graphics. This baby is going to need a Pentium 90 or better. <<< But your system is not a Pentium. We introduced an optimization in the graphics engine that is *Pentium*-*specific*. Even though the raw CPU rating of the DX4/100 may be close to that of the P60, the Pentium is a different CPU architecture and there are things we can do with a Pentium that we can not do with a 486. Sorry if you're disappointed, but that's the way it is. By the way, I use a P5-66 at work, and in SVGA I get about 12 FPS with all textures on (including grass and track). I prefer to drive without grass and track textures, which drives the frame rate up to around 16-20. On a P-90, it's very smooth. Rick Genter Technical Lead, IndyCar Racing II Papyrus Design Group, Inc.

>My system benchs about 65 ..... >>But your system is not a Pentium. We introduced an optimization in the >>graphics engine that is *Pentium*-*specific*. Thanks for advising of this Rick. For the info of yourself and those folk more objective who may be listening in, I'm running a fast quality of the SVGA graphics, the SVGA game, while loadable, is definitely unplayable at any respectable frame rate/detail level in my objective, yet necessarily subjective <g> evaluation despite applause seeking hollow rhetoric to the contrary from the many over-enthusiastic juveniles present. The VGA version plays about the same as the previous version, albeit with nice graphical (colour) aspects improved. BTW, univbe 5.1a is loaded and my video card *is* supported. I note the SVGA is *extremely* RAM hungry. (8Mb, need more...any & all donations accepted <g>) Thanks for advising this, however, don't you agree that something should be mentioned *somewhere* (apart from as a re-active response to a post in this newsgroup) re the game being enhanced for the Pentium processor to avoid unrealistic expectations on the part of the buyer? Perhaps on the box or in magazine advertising would be a good place?? Caveat Emptor ??? Again thanks for the 'quantitative' info. I was planning an hardware upgrade, and now I can actually plan with confidence the *grunt* required. I was planning a P100, 512k SBC supported SuperMicro Mb running 16Mb 60ns burst EDO. From what you've said here, I now know this will be ample. I prefer grass and track texture on, so I figure that should be achievable and smooth at 20+ FPS with the 100 etc. For the record IMO, the 'Kawasaki/Suzuki/Honda/Yamaha' sales oriented sound was an abysmal disappointment. Samples from the driver position in a real Indycar may not have e***d the children, (they have NFS and the corner "hoodlum hangout" for that), however it certainly would've made the *game* more of a *sim* and re-playable. The NASCARish excessive tyre squealing and stand on the brakes and trickle through the corner amateurs imaginative driving model is a function of the 'arcade' demo..I hope??? Marketing's hand in this is evident, and is consistant with the no network (LAN) decision. I'm sure it'll be sucessful, as it does appear to be what the mass market wants or perhaps more accurately will accept,..more's the pity. <smile> Again, congrats on the excellent graphics, in the SVGA version, but I'll pass and wait for Grand Prix 2 from Crammond. In the interim, Indycar One still has many features lacking in VGA version 2, in particular the sound, and quite a few playable modem hours yet to run. Regards, ---Cogito Ergo Sum--- * * Fidonet: 3:640/377 * Keiron Rado, Brisbane, Queensland, Australia *

A lot of us have run this demo, and you might be surprised at what we've found. There are quite a few P90s which can run SVGA with *ALL* details turned on at racing frame rates. My ICRS teammate ran it on a DX2-66 and reported that VGA is FAR faster than ICR1, and also commented that SVGA is usable on his system. He's got one with a PCI bus, but that's hardly uncommon these days. On the other hand, I have an ancient DX2-66 with ISA graphics and I can't get almost anywhere on SVGA, and even VGA is dodgy with other cars around. From what I've seen and heard (from folks who have run ICR1 to death over the past two years), I'd say that Papyrus made a good-faith estimate of what you'd need, and that they got it basically right. Do remember that the PC business has a fantastic variety of hardware and sofwtare out there, and that just because two items look the same on the spec sheet doesn't mean they will act the same. (In fact, they often don't.)

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>Well, managed to get the demo from ftp.std.com (contrary to what everyone >was saying earlier today, I DIDN'T get a "permission denied" message). >Anyway, I digress. >Simply put (just like Nascar) if you don't have a Pentium, don't bother >with the SVGA mode. I have a DX4-100, 16 mb RAM, ATI Graphics Xpression >VLB graphics card and even with a clean boot I got ch-ch-choppy performance >unless pretty well all the graphics are turned off (and no, the UniVBE >driver didn't work with my graphics card - it detected fine but the frame >rate was worse). >VGA mode was nice and smooth but it doesn't look much different than >Indycar I (which I already have plus the track pack). After about 30 >minutes playing it didn't feel or drive much differently than Indycar I >either. >I am going to pass this one up for now (until I get a Pentium - which >won't be anytime soon). I think that there "recommended" system, a >Pentium 60 (see the readme.txt file), is far short of the "optimum" >system for SVGA. My system benchs about 65 which is very close to a >Pentium 60. I can only think that mean a Pentium 60 is the "optimum" >system for VGA graphics. This baby is going to need a Pentium 90 or better. >If Papyrus is reading this...GET A CLUE! I HATE it when software >companies "soft pedal" the hardware requirements for their products. Sure >I can see a 486-33 as the "minumum" system(see the readme.txt file) to get >this prog going in VGA but why don't you base your "optimum" hardware >requirements on the "optimum" graphics setting (i.e. SVGA)? (especially when >the SVGA option is the main difference/upgrade in this game over Indycar I). >At least you had the decency to release a demo that allowed me to evaluate it >on my system and come to the obvious conclusion that if I have Indycar I, I >don't need Indycar II (for now). >Flame-ON, Johnny! >KaBoNG!

-- Brian Wong Systems Engineering Group (Servers)

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>If you are having problems with the SVGA speed, make sure that you tried >choosing in the setup to install the univbe.drv it makes a big difference. >I was so surprised with the improvement that I went and FTP'ed the full >UNIVBE51 product to see if it would do the same for Nascar. No it didn't >improve it much and the FTP'ed univbe51 version was actually slower with >ICR2.0 than the univbe.drv that papyrus includes with the demo, so maybe >they really tweaked out the SVGA modes in their version, but whatever >papyrus did, it is the fastest SVGA performance on my system of any game I >have seen so far.

Could someone please explain just what UNIVBE is? (I do understand that it's got something to do with a fast video driver.) What's UNIVB51? Does this stuff require a particular type of hardware? It seems critically important to those of us who are, uh, "hardware-challenged" :-) -- Brian Wong Systems Engineering Group (Servers)

Perhaps on the box or in magazine advertising would be a good place?? <<< On the box the recommended platform for SVGA is a Pentium. Rick Genter Technical Lead, IndyCar Racing II Papyrus Design Group, Inc.

Mic technique can be a B word. I've spent some time trying to get race car engines recorded for radio spots (since I despise what they give you on effect disks) Getting mics positioned is worse than cameras

: Could someone please explain just what UNIVBE is? (I do understand that : it's got something to do with a fast video driver.) What's UNIVB51? : Does this stuff require a particular type of hardware? It seems critically : important to those of us who are, uh, "hardware-challenged" :-) : -- Univbe *is* magic. It works with most video cards and is not manufacturer specific. Some systems have not been able to run it, but there does not seem to be any consitent pattern to this, atleast not to my knowledge. Mike

>Actually, we *had* a recording of an IndyCar engine. It was awful. It was >extremely loaded with turbo-whine, and even after massive filtering we >couldn't get something we liked. >Rick Genter >Technical Lead, IndyCar Racing II >Papyrus Design Group, Inc. Rick, Maybe you should post this recording on your home page and allow us users a chance to sample it and give you our opinion. Thanks, Mike

: Simply put (just like Nascar) if you don't have a Pentium, don't bother : with the SVGA mode. I have a DX4-100, 16 mb RAM, ATI Graphics Xpression : VLB graphics card and even with a clean boot I got ch-ch-choppy performance : unless pretty well all the graphics are turned off (and no, the UniVBE : driver didn't work with my graphics card - it detected fine but the frame : rate was worse). Try running the uvconfig.exe that comes with the demo. Set the Linear Frame Buffer off. I was able to run this with my ATI WinTurbo this way, but I didn't really notice any difference in the frame rate. However, my reaction to the demo is completely different than yours. To each their own. I have P5-90 and found the frame rate okay, if I turn off grass, track texture, grandstand objects. It does look nice if I can run with everything on, but I want to race not enjoy eye-candy. I think the performance of the car and the AI are greatly enhanced over ICR1. That and being able to run in SVGA (even with the gloss turned off) is why I'm a sucker and will buy it. -- **************************** Michael E. Carver ************************* Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./. [- < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

>My ICRS teammate ran it on a DX2-66 and reported that VGA is FAR faster >than ICR1, and also commented that SVGA is usable on his system. He's got >one with a PCI bus, but that's hardly uncommon these days. Yet another data point: dx2/66 (with a nice ASUS MB, and a lot of tweaking of the BIOS), 16MB, Stealth32 2MB. Univbe adds perhaps 1 fps. I found ICR1 would show more detail for a given set minimum framerate. I'm surprised your "teammate" found ICR2 faster. Is ICR2 using 320x240 compared to ICR1's 320x200? Further, ICR2's low-res graphics seem more blocky than ICR1's. I've noticed this in maybe every SVGA/VGA game I've seen. Is it because the graphics are designed for 640x480 and in some simple way translated to 320x240, rather than optimised and anti-aliased as the old games were? Whatever the reason, it looks worse, especially the LCD's. I'd have to agree with the sentiment that, if you don't have the hp to run it in SVGA, it may not be worth "upgrading" from ICR1 (though you do get all the tracks sans indy). However, hi-res is another story. I can run it with "acceptable" framerate (about 12 fps) with objects and skids on. Depending on number of cars, with car texture too. But with a lot of cars, it becomes a surrealistic endeavor as all I have is me, the ribbon of a track, and cars disappearing and reappearing. Overall, impressive. Time for a CPU upgrade... ------------------- David Masten

This correlates to a comment I posted to another message. My Pentium 90 really hummed ICR2 along with all the graphics on. NASCAR required a lot turned off. So that is what you did! Glad I invested in a Pentium. Thanks...Craig ****************************************************************************** * Canberra, Australia * * IWCC3 Marker Bindings #2 Pontiac - Rick Higbee Motorsports * * IGN4 QANTAS Airways #75 Pontiac - Rick Higbee Motorsports * ******************************************************************************

i just wanted to comment that i have a basic dx2 66 with a 1meg video card... i found if i run my soundblaster16 in mono, and drop the opponents cars to down around 15 20, i get an acceptable frame rate to play in svga.... comparable to running nascar in low res with 20 cars....that univesa program included with the demo makes a big difference.... cant wait for the full version if icr2!!!!! ALL HAIL PAPYRUS for outdoing themselves again!!!!!!!!

Can you tell me why they are so bad under DOS? Is it possible that the Win95 version would run better with an ATI? -- Thomas O'Donohoe [link lost in import]

: Well, managed to get the demo from ftp.std.com (contrary to what everyone : was saying earlier today, I DIDN'T get a "permission denied" message). : Anyway, I digress. : Simply put (just like Nascar) if you don't have a Pentium, don't bother : with the SVGA mode. I have a DX4-100, 16 mb RAM, ATI Graphics Xpression : VLB graphics card and even with a clean boot I got ch-ch-choppy performance : unless pretty well all the graphics are turned off (and no, the UniVBE : driver didn't work with my graphics card - it detected fine but the frame : rate was worse). While the ATI cards with the Mach chipset are good under windows, they sadly are one of the worst cards you can get for dos-based games. Sorry, but with that card you won't get a fluid framerate even with a pentium 200... Only the Millenium has overcome this problem. Ralf

Actually, my 100MHz Pentium (PCI) runs far faster on ICR2's 640x480 SVGA mode than NASCAR does in the same mode...I can turn on every graphical option, and still get an acceptable frame rate...It's amazing...

>While the ATI cards with the Mach chipset are good under windows, they >sadly are one of the worst cards you can get for dos-based games. What garbage. The mach64 is within 10% of any card out there. More garbage. And I gather you own one right? rms

I'll add two hints to fastest mach64 bencchmarks: Use univbe51a, which was specifically released to cover the mach64, and also PCI owners should get the utility ctpci.zip and use it to disable burst mode. The mach64 is not happy with burst mode on and doing this will bump you 3dbench scores by several points. rms

>>What garbage. The mach64 is within 10% of any card out there. > I'll add two hints to fastest mach64 bencchmarks: > Use univbe51a, which was specifically released to cover > the mach64, and also PCI owners should get the utility > ctpci.zip and use it to disable burst mode. I did this a while back, but the instructions are in German, and, well, perhaps my German isn't what it should be! What about BIOS support for disabling burst mode? Got any English instructions on CTPCI? Personally I can't believe thet other cards are soooo much faster than my ATI Mach64 as the original post implied. ICR2 runs with full graphics at Laguna Seca very well, with the only tricky spot being at the sharp S-bend(s). If this is poor then I would love to try something else. Mixed with my complete lack of problems running it with a variety of OSs means I'm happy. Stuart -- From the bedroom of Stuart Booth, Somewhere in Guildford, England...

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>>What garbage. The mach64 is within 10% of any card out there. > I'll add two hints to fastest mach64 bencchmarks: > Use univbe51a, which was specifically released to cover > the mach64, and also PCI owners should get the utility > ctpci.zip and use it to disable burst mode. The mach64 > is not happy with burst mode on and doing this will bump > you 3dbench scores by several points.

Can you tell me what this program does and how I use it??? -- Thomas O'Donohoe http://www.lookup.com/Homepages/60188/home.html

>Actually, my 100MHz Pentium (PCI) runs far faster on ICR2's 640x480 SVGA >mode than NASCAR does in the same mode...I can turn on every graphical >option, and still get an acceptable frame rate...It's amazing... I have a P100 with 512k cache, 32mb of RAM, and a Diamond Stealth 64 with 2 MB of VRAM (not DRAM) and I cannot drive with all the graphics on... what do you consider an acceptable frame rate?? I can't stand playing either ICR2 or NASCAR with anything less than SMOOOTH anination.

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> >What garbage. The mach64 is within 10% of any card out there. > I'll add two hints to fastest mach64 bencchmarks: > Use univbe51a, which was specifically released to cover > the mach64, and also PCI owners should get the utility > ctpci.zip and use it to disable burst mode. The mach64 > is not happy with burst mode on and doing this will bump > you 3dbench scores by several points. > >rms

I have a Quantex Pentium 100, 16M, PCI bus, with an ATI Graphics Xpression 2Mb DRAM video card. I got the ICR2 demo last week and was very pleased with the results. It seems much faster than Nascar and probably slightly slower than the frame rate on NFS, which is incredibly smooth. I run all these in SVGA. Univbe doesn't appear to work with my system. Is this a way of making my system run these games even faster? Can you explain in more detail how to go about making the necessary changes. By the way, as soon as I can find it I will be buying the full version of ICR2. mho

Hi I got P5-100 with S3 Trio 64, 16Mram.. I played the game will most of the texture turned off.. coz I think the min framerate for me is at least 20fps. Anything less than that just doesn't do the fun.. or we should play Ridge racer on the PSX to get a feeling of 60fps. Rgds, Bernard.

: : Well, managed to get the demo from ftp.std.com (contrary to what everyone : : was saying earlier today, I DIDN'T get a "permission denied" message). : : Anyway, I digress. : : Simply put (just like Nascar) if you don't have a Pentium, don't bother : : with the SVGA mode. I have a DX4-100, 16 mb RAM, ATI Graphics Xpression : : VLB graphics card and even with a clean boot I got ch-ch-choppy performance : : unless pretty well all the graphics are turned off (and no, the UniVBE : : driver didn't work with my graphics card - it detected fine but the frame : : rate was worse). : While the ATI cards with the Mach chipset are good under windows, they : sadly are one of the worst cards you can get for dos-based games. : Sorry, but with that card you won't get a fluid framerate even with a : pentium 200... : Only the Millenium has overcome this problem. Oops, sorry. I mixed the names Matrox and Mach.... The Mach chips are good under dos, while the Matrox cards (exception: millenium) are very slow. Again, sorry. Ralf

: I'll add two hints to fastest mach64 bencchmarks: : Use univbe51a, which was specifically released to cover : the mach64, and also PCI owners should get the utility : ctpci.zip and use it to disable burst mode. The mach64 : is not happy with burst mode on and doing this will bump : you 3dbench scores by several points. Well I tried your 2 hints with No Difference. I have a P5-90 with a PCI ATI Mach64 card with 2mb of ram. First of all there is no way to use univbe with the linear framebuffer enabled with the Mach64 in ICR2. There is something screwy with the way ICR2 loads the driver. I have been able to load the 51a driver with the 51 univbe.exe program (had to hex out the "a" after the 51 in the driver file). No difference. I tried ctpci & ctpci2x and tried all kinds of combinations of turning things on and off. Most made no difference (unless I messed with the memory transfer settings and things got worse). Nothing made an increase in either 3dBench or univbe's profile numbers. The best my 3dBench score ever got was 71.4 (normal). Even running the program I got with my computer (mergeon.exe) which is supposed to force burst mode doesn't change the 3dBench score. I have a sneaky suspicion the SciTech Software says that univbe supports the mach64 series only because it doesn't BLOW-UP. It may not cause any problems, but it certainly doesn't make it work any better. -- **************************** Michael E. Carver ************************* Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./. [- < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

Your ATI card is optimized for polygon type graphics. Since most DOS games use bitmap graphics, the ATI card is not much better than using a Trident 16-bit card. Well, that's an exaggeration, but it's a good example. -- Senior Systems Engineer (703) 379-3881 Simulation Technologies, Inc. FAX (703) 379-3890