Diamond Launches Diamond Edge 3D Card

See the Diamond Web page for more details (www.diamondmm.com). Here's a quote regarding the bundled software :- "Diamond is bundling four enhanced versions of top-selling titles with the Edge 3D accelerator: Sega's Virtua Fighter Remix; Interplay's Descent: Destination Saturn ; Domark's Absolute Zero; and Papyrus' NASCAR Racing . Other upcoming titles include Sega's Panzer Dragoon and Interplay's Descent II." Wow ! Looks like Creative Labs aren't going to have it all their own way. Jez

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>See the Diamond Web page for more details (www.diamondmm.com). Here's >a quote regarding the bundled software :- >"Diamond is bundling four enhanced versions of top-selling titles with >the Edge 3D accelerator: Sega's Virtua Fighter Remix; >Interplay's Descent: Destination Saturn ; >Domark's Absolute Zero; >and Papyrus' NASCAR Racing . >Other upcoming titles include Sega's Panzer Dragoon and Interplay's >Descent II." >Wow ! Looks like Creative Labs aren't going to have it all their own >way. >Jez

The biggest problem with the CL board is that it doesn't seem to mention if you can add more RAM to the card. If not, then you are stuck with a 1MB video card (or 2MB if they figured out how to use VRAM and DRAM at the same time). The base card has 1MB VRAM for video and 1MB DRAM for textures, but in terms of using Windows I wonder what they are supposed to do. -- http://widget.ecn.purdue.edu/~fmah

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Wow, is it really coming out? I didn't believe i would come out so soon (this October). And I didn't think Sega would port VF Remix too. Another great thing about the card...it has one digital joystick port, and TWO sega saturn joystick ports. <--- NOW THAT, is a good idea. Who would want to play VF with a keyboard? Now only if you could use the Sega Saturn joystick ports with other games besides Sega Saturn games (VF Remix, Panzer Dragoon). Who knows...maybe its possible. Diamond is very smart bundling VF Remix and three other quality titles. I would say this card looks promising (of course I would have to see the specs, and how VF holds up on a PC). And I never thought I would see the day when VF came to the PC. Now, if Sony would port over Tekken and Toshinden with the help of Namco and Takara. :)! Jared Ong --------------------------------------- We are spinning our own fates good or evil, and never to be undone Every smallest stroke of virtue or of vice leaves its never so little scar...Nothing we ever do is, in strict scientific literalness, wiped out. - William James

The 3D Blaster card will be expandable to 4 Meg, 2 Vram and 2 Dram. As for windows the user gets 2 options, because you have your curent VGA card in the system you can either use it in windows or you can use the 3DB's GUI drivers, what you do will depend upon what your curent VGA card is. Ifor Powell - Creativbe Labs UK -- CompuServe. Ifor Powell 72662,2676 Phone +44 (0) 1734 344322 Fax +44 (0) 1734 828 260

I'm a bit confused about the chipset of the Edge 3D card. It is said that SEGA has made a deal to release games for the NVIDIA chipset. I thought that's great, but according to the diamond press release, the 2000 series cards don't use the NVIDIA chip, but rather the STG2000 by SGS Thomson. Only the 3000 series cards use NVIDIA technology and are at least $150 more than the 2000 series (around $400-$450). So which card is the ONE to get? $400 is quite a lot. Which card would game companies be writing for? If the cheaper card can do 640x480x65K at 30fsp, I'm for that (better still if just on a 486). Who needs to run stuff at 1024x758 (eyestrain and can't afford the 17" monitor). Also, the system ram based wavetable part is very interesting. Anyone have more info on this? No more rom restriction or dedicated ram! btw, which chipset is the 3dblaster using? thanks!

that SEGA has made a deal to release games for the NVIDIA chipset. I thought that's great, but according to the diamond press release, the 2000 series cards don't use the NVIDIA chip, but rather the STG2000 by SGS Thomson. Only the 3000 series cards use NVIDIA technology and are at least $150 more than the 2000 series (around $400-$450). REPLY: I don't have the copy of the press release with me. But I'm quite sure all the Edge boards use the Nividia. The difference in the 2000 to 3000 is Dram to Vram. It would be nice to know the real *** diff. between the two. We proably won't know till all of us here start buying the boards. BH

Nope the dram version does in fact use the stg200 chipset

>btw, which chipset is the 3dblaster using? thanks! A customized version of the GLINT processor. Some OpenGL specific functionality has been removed. Functionality required for games (e.g. texture mapping acceleration) has been added. Chris Harris 3Dlabs http://www.3Dlabs.com/3Dlabs

I has been said that the Diamond Edge 2000 series is based on the SGS Thomson chip. This chipset uses Dram and cost $250-$300. The 3000 series is based off the Nvidia chip. This uses the Vram and cost $400-$450. EXCERPTS FROM THE PRESS RELEASE: The new PCI product line is based on technology from Nvidia Corp. and sports digital gameport for percise joystick control, as well as two video game ports that allow specialized, multi-player versions of Sega Saturn titles..... Daimond's Edge 3D is believed to be the only single-board solution offering all of these features and is expected to be initially shipped in late October at consumer prices starting at $249-$299. LATER IN THE RELEASE.... The DRAM version of the Daimond Edge 3D, basedon SGS Thomson's STG 2000 multimedia accelerator chip, is available for PCI bus in 1mb upgradeable to 2mb (the Daimond Edge 3D 2120XL) or 2md standard (the Diamond Edge 3D 3240XL). The Vram configuration is based on Nvidia Corp's NV1 multimedia accelerator chip, is available for PCI in 2mb upgradable to 4MB(the Diamond Edge 3D 3240XL) or 4mb standard(the Diamond Edge 3D 3400XL). Both chips are based on Nvidia's NV1 technology... SOOOO..... Both the SGS Thomson chip and Nvidia chips are based on the same Nvidia technology. Does one outperform the other? Excluding Vram & Dram differences, I don't know. The main thing is that all the boards mentioned above are compatible with each other and offer the same features. Perfomance will be the only difference. BH

Is Diamond's card marketed in Asia under Leadtek's Proview? Leadtek has announce their product on 6/1/95 with similar features as the Edge. Below is the press release taken from http://www.nvidia.com/pr/leadtek.htm: 3D Graphics and Audio Solution for your Home PC ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Leadtek Research Inc. announces a new generation of powerful Multimedia Accelerator Adapter designed for home personal computers, with the product name of Proview GD400 and Proview GV500. With a suggested list price for GD400 at $249 (1MB DRAM) and for GV500 at $399 (2MB VRAM); Proview offers 2D GUI Acceleration, Real-time Photo realistic 3D Graphics, High-Fidelity Wave-table Audio Synthesis and a High precision game port. There are over 200 DOS game titles proven and a great number of Windows 3D game titles in development to be released for the fall of '95. The Proview GD400 and Proview GV500 will bring the PC to a 3 Dimensional video and audio world. Proview GD400 is based on SGS-THOMSON's STG2000 Multimedia Accelerator, with 1MB DRAM and socket-upgradeable to 2MB with PCI 2.0 bus plug and play supported, display resolution from 640x480 at 256/32K/16.7M colors up to 1280x1024 256 colors are provided. Proview GV500 is based on NVIDIA NV1 Multimedia Accelerator, with 2MB VRAM and upgradeable to 4MB with PCI 2.0 bus plug and play supported, a display resolution from 640x480 at 256/32K/16.7M colors up to 1024x768 256/32K/16.7M colors, 1152x864 256/32K/16.7M colors and 1600x1280 256/32K colors. ?Real-time Photo realistic 3D Graphics including Fast Polygon rendering, Perspective corrected Texture-mapping, lighting effects, Alpha blending, Anti aliased sprite animation and Double buffering for smooth animation. With 75million pixels per second rendering, 3D Graphics performance will allow interactive entertainment software to produce photo realistic environments rendered at 800x600 resolution in ?GUI Acceleration and Full-Motion Video Acceleration Accelerated primitives including BLT, Point, Lines, Polylines, Polygons, Fills, Patterns, Test and Arbitrary rectangular clipping, execution of all 256 Raster operations at 8, 15, 24 and 30-bit color depths. Hardware video acceleration provides image enhancement and scaling of video streams to full-screen display with 30 frames per second of true-color digital video. ?Concurrent High-fidelity Audio Synthesis On chip 350 MIPS audio engine and bus-mastering DMA accelerates synthesis and mixing of high-fidelity audio with little CPU overhead. Supports up to 32 channels of 16-bit wavetable-sythesized sound. Backwards compatible to existing DOS standards. ?Enhanced Digital Game port 8-Channel game port with analog/digital sampler with 13-bit resolution and programmable sample rate up to 92 Hz. ?Support for Standards: MS-DOS, Windows 3.1, Windows 95 and OS/2, VGA & SVGA, Major 3D interface (API); Microsoft's 3D-DDI Renderware, IBM Game port, VESA, DPMS power management

I have a few questions about the Diamnod Edge card: - how does 2D performance compare with S3 Vision 968 chip? DOS? Win95? - Will the card support Win95's 3D-DDI? DirectDraw? BRender? What 3D standards does the card support? OpenGL? - A Diamond SDK??? Does this mean that software needs to be specifically developed for the Diamond Edge card for it to take advantage of 3D hardware acceleration? How about software developed using Microsoft's Game SDK? - Does the game need to be specially written to take advantage of the card's quadratic texture mapping and bilinear texture mapping? or will a generic 3D API (Win95's 3D-DDI) handle this? - What would be the street price for the 2MB VRAM version? - Is Z-buffering supported? - Is MPEG support implemented in software? - What is the memory footprint of the MIDI samples that are stored in memory? Can the MIDI portion of the card disabled? Sounblaster compatible?

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>: >> The biggest problem with the CL board is that it doesn't seem >to mention >> if you can add more RAM to the card. If not, then you are >stuck with >> a 1MB video card (or 2MB if they figured out how to use VRAM >and DRAM >> at the same time). The base card has 1MB VRAM for video and >1MB DRAM >> for textures, but in terms of using Windows I wonder what they >are supposed >> to do. >The 3D Blaster card will be expandable to 4 Meg, 2 Vram and 2 >Dram. As for windows the user gets 2 options, because you have >your curent VGA card in the system you can either use it in >windows or you can use the 3DB's GUI drivers, what you do will >depend upon what your curent VGA card is. >Ifor Powell - Creativbe Labs UK

Could someone please explain the difference between VRAM, DRAM and a PCI and VLB? I'm rebuilding a computer for my room, and want to be able to play NASCAR. Thanx!

>I have a few questions about the Diamnod Edge card: >- how does 2D performance compare with S3 Vision 968 chip? DOS? Win95? See other posts. I believe 3D-DDI, DirectDraw, BRender not sure about OpenGL. Note: it will support them when they are out, obviously hard to support something not existing yet The API's will work, but best performance is obtained using the SDK due to the additional capabilities of the card. This is the why I think the API's are good, but when a different paradigm is introduced you will probably have to support it directly since it offers innovative features. I don't necessarily see this as a big problem now since there currently is not any kind of market leader in a yet non-existant market. Not sure, but probably directly. Quadratic TM is a superset of polygon TM. I would guess about $350 maybe a bit more. Don't know. Yes, at least from what I remember. 1MB or 6MB or custom depending on application. I would assume SEGA will use custom sounds. Use of custom sounds is beginning to show up, but the existing "standards" make it difficult to implement efficiently. Probably, though better than about 80-90% of existing MIDI. Yes, but probably not 100% as with any "SB-compatible." -- http://widget.ecn.purdue.edu/~fmah

>Is Diamond's card marketed in Asia under Leadtek's Proview? Leadtek >has announce their product on 6/1/95 with similar features as the >Edge. Below is the press release taken from >http://www.nvidia.com/pr/leadtek.htm: Same card. I assume they are more out of US and OEM. -- http://widget.ecn.purdue.edu/~fmah

Hi, I was just wondering if the 3D EDGE will work with my Stealth 64 video VRAM. If I was to buy the 3D EDGE, do I still need my old Stealth 64 video VRAM? thanx Quang

>Hi, >I was just wondering if the 3D EDGE will work with my Stealth 64 video >VRAM. >If I was to buy the 3D EDGE, do I still need my old Stealth 64 video VRAM? Nope, It will replace the Stealth 64 and your current soundcard, although you can keep your persent sound card and pass its output through the Edge. -- Eric T. Busch Emory University

I have only just bought my Video VRAM and am thus slightly annoyed at the imminent launch of the Edge (these things happen I know). However, is there some form of upgrade to the Edge? Either in the form of a "daughter board", or a discount on the full Edge? I checked the Diamond web site and couldn't seem to find anything about this there. Thanks, Andy

That is a concern of mine as well. I'd also like to know if Saturn games will be directly playable on the PC, or will they have to be converted? I just bought a Saturn in May. If I can use my PC to play Saturn games, then I'd just unload my Saturn (which would pay for the video card). I'll keep my fingers crossed, but I doubt Sega would go for direct compatibility.

I wasted 300 bucks on the Stealth 64 Video VRAM then? Damm, there better be a daughter card or something.

Of course not- you would have to completely duplicate the saturn on a card for that to work. Sega is _porting_ games to the Edge, not turning the Edge into a Saturn emulator.

>I wasted 300 bucks on the Stealth 64 Video VRAM then? Damm, >there better be a daughter card or something. There isn't. Some of us knew about the Nvidia for quite some time, or rather the large number of 3D accelerators coming out in this quarter months ago. I, and others posted about this several times, stating it wouldn't be wise to get a 2D accelerator anytime soon. Perhaps you should have performed more research?

>Same type of thing happened to me. I bought a Diamond Stealth 64 Vram (not video) last >april, the same time the Vram Video started appearing. I paid $290. Oh well, I guess >I don't need digital video acceleration that badly. ;) >This stuff happens. >(Don't even talk to me about buying a 1.08 gig hard drive for $430 at the same time - >I've seen the current prices.) Don't feel bad. I was around in the days when an 80 meg SCSI + the controller went for $1150! And I bought one!! laugh. It died a few years ago :( but I spent 3 times less and got a 130 meg to replace it. Few months ago I got a 1.26 gig IDE MAXTOR for the PC for $389 and now they've dropped in price. Better than the prices NOT going down! grin. This Diamond Edge 3D - has anyone used it yet for NASCAR Racing?? What's the word on performance? Will this 3d card and a P-100 work like, say, a P-133 and a diamond stealth 64 card? in other words, does the card take a huge load off of the processor and enable it to run alot smoother? Go #6 Mark Martin and #16 Ted Musgrave - Jack Roush Racing!! NASCAR Racing!! http://innet.com/~sean/nascar/nascar.html <--NASCAR Racing Sim page

According to Diamond Tech Support, the VRAM version contains the NVidia chipset, which is a bit faster than the SGS chipset.

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> >I wasted 300 bucks on the Stealth 64 Video VRAM then? Damm, > >there better be a daughter card or something. > There isn't. Some of us knew about the Nvidia for quite some time, or > rather the large number of 3D accelerators coming out in this quarter > months ago. I, and others posted about this several times, stating it > wouldn't be wise to get a 2D accelerator anytime soon. Perhaps you > should have performed more research?

You can always wait until the next new thing. The Stealth 64 is still one of the fastest 2D accelerators about, and you can bet that there will be a war of the 3D accelerators until there are some standards. Also wait until there is software support for these new cards. By then you will use for stealth 64 for what you bought is for, 2D acceleration.

Hell, there's always something better just around the corner. The only sensible advice is to buy the best you can afford right now. Also, anyone who goes out and buys the first example of a new piece of hardware is going to pay through the nose for something that will be cheaper and better in 6 months - by which time there might actually be some worthwhile support for the hardware.

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>>I wasted 300 bucks on the Stealth 64 Video VRAM then? Damm, >>there better be a daughter card or something. >There isn't. Some of us knew about the Nvidia for quite some time, or >rather the large number of 3D accelerators coming out in this quarter >months ago. I, and others posted about this several times, stating it >wouldn't be wise to get a 2D accelerator anytime soon. Perhaps you >should have performed more research?

Same type of thing happened to me. I bought a Diamond Stealth 64 Vram (not video) last april, the same time the Vram Video started appearing. I paid $290. Oh well, I guess I don't need digital video acceleration that badly. ;) This stuff happens. (Don't even talk to me about buying a 1.08 gig hard drive for $430 at the same time - I've seen the current prices.) Happy computing - ____ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ * JoSePh QuIrInG /~^\ * * DePaRtMeNt Of ICS /^\/" `\ * * /" ``\ * * U.C.I. McCloud, CA * * Come Visit http://www.ics.uci.edu/~jquiring/ * ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

>According to Diamond Tech Support, the VRAM version contains the >NVidia chipset, which is a bit faster than the SGS chipset. I think that is entirely due to the VRAM, and the chipsets are exactly the same with the exception of VRAM/DRAM support.

>This Diamond Edge 3D - has anyone used it yet for NASCAR Racing?? >What's the word on performance? Will this 3d card and a P-100 work >like, say, a P-133 and a diamond stealth 64 card? in other words, >does the card take a huge load off of the processor and enable it to >run alot smoother? It's not out yet. Not until the end of October.

Regarding the Diamond edge : I've used it on Nascar Racing but other than saying it works I cant comment on relative performance as I have never tried it on any board other than the 'edge' ! The same with Virtual Fighter remix - the thing is I hate these sort of games. The 3d rendering capabilities and the video warping features will most definitely impress you - get one !!! Rob W.

Western Digital is coming out this holiday season with its Paradise Tasmania 3D *** board. Unlike other 3D cards, the Tasmania 3D will allow the user to keep their existing 2D graphics subsystem, while adding 3D capability. The Tasmania 3D's unique design is 100 percent compatible with all existing 2D graphics accelerators, protecting the investment users have in their current systems. The Tasmania is based on the Rendering Polygon Accelerator chip (YGV612) from Yamaha. This 3D *** upgrade will be available for either PCI or VL-based systems and has the following hardware features: * 500,000 Gourand-shaded 50-pixel polygons/sec * 16-bit Z-buffer (hidden surface removal) Estimated selling price: $250 The major *** vendors and others are e***d about this board and are already porting their games to this board (due to its high detail texturing and frame rate capabilites) or are requesting to do so. So, before you spend more money on another upgrade for a 2D/3D graphics board you might want to look into this or other alternative solutions.

>Regarding the Diamond edge : >I've used it on Nascar Racing but other than saying it works I >cant comment on relative performance as I have never tried it on >any board other than the 'edge' ! The same with Virtual Fighter >remix - the thing is I hate these sort of games. In reference to the 3D and video warping I will have to make a correction to something I said. I had answered a question in reference to SGI, and apparently I think I was wrong. Thus I have a quote from a Windows Sources article (July 95). One of the authors has written 3 CAD books. "Internally, 3D modelers define objects in several possible ways. Polygons (specifically triangles or quadrilaterals) offer the simplest method for the software to calculate and to accelerate with hardware . . . The greater the number of polygons, the more smoothly the product approximates a curved surface. But as you might expect, algebraically generating surfaces provides a much smoother, more accurate representation of non-linear planes than polygons do. 3D modelers tend to use splines - curves defined using control points which bend the curves to varying degress - as the basis for these surfaces..." So in reference to SGI, it would seem that using their powerful geometry engines and rasterizers they should handle splines (where appropriate). -- http://widget.ecn.purdue.edu/~fmah

>Hi, >I was just wondering if the 3D EDGE will work with my Stealth 64 video >VRAM. Hell, no, it's a whole new video card. I really don't want to use their wave table since their is no memory on it. I'd rather keep my AWE32 as the wavetable card. There will be a whole bunch of these 3D accelerator cards comming out using different 3D accelerator chips! I wonder how the Edge stacks up against the Matrox Millenium? Anyway, when I placed the order for my P133 from Dell, I made sure they put in the shittiest video card they had....I plan to upgrade. If the Edge sucks (which I doubt) you could go with another video card and buy the Gravis Grip for your digital joystick compatibility (whenever that comes out). Yours truly, ___ ___ / ) /) / ) / ___ _ __ __ __ _// /__/ _ _ _ _ \___/_</_/ (_(_/_/ (_(_/__ / _/_/ )_/)_(_)_/ )_</__ ) () _______ ________ ________ Just on the border of your waking mind / ___/\ / _____/\ / __ /\ There lies another time / ___/\// /____ \// __ / / Where darkness and light are one /______/\//_______/\ /__/ /__/ / And as you tread the halls of sanity \______\/ \_______\/ \__\/\__\/ You feel so glad to be unable to go beyond (everything 'cept anchovies!) I have a message from another time... -=:)>}] EAST COAST ANIME [{<(:=- ELO: "Prologue" -=- Daicon IV

The AWE will probably eat dirt compared to the Edge's sound. I have the AWE BTW, not good without expansion. -- http://widget.ecn.purdue.edu/~fmah

(Frederick Y Mah) writes: >>Hell, no, it's a whole new video card. I really don't want to use >>their wave table since their is no memory on it. I'd rather keep my >>AWE32 as the wavetable card. >The AWE will probably eat dirt compared to the Edge's sound. I have the >AWE BTW, not good without expansion. >-- >http://widget.ecn.purdue.edu/~fmah Gee...When your the best, everyone has to take their "shot"... Mike Carrothers Raleigh NC.

>>Hell, no, it's a whole new video card. I really don't want to use >>their wave table since their is no memory on it. I'd rather keep my >>AWE32 as the wavetable card. >The AWE will probably eat dirt compared to the Edge's sound. I have the >AWE BTW, not good without expansion. Plus the Edge uses system memory for its wavetable sounds, so you could plunk those AWE simms in your motherboard and use that memory for other stuff too, right? I can't see why people are complaining that the Edge would replace their video cards, when in most cases it will be a better video card than what they already had for 2D stuff. An ATI Mach 64 for around $200 plus a 3D Blaster for $350 is over $500, while the Edge will be at least $200 less than that combination, with sound capability to boot. Just sell your old video card or keep it as a backup, you still come out ahead. While Diamond products aren't always perfect, they have a better signal to noise ratio than Creative Labs gear. Are any systems venders like Micron, Dell, Quantex, etc.. planning on creating Edge bundles? Seems like it would lower the price since they wouldn't need to include a soundcard.

The SGI rendering architecture is purely flat polygon based - as is every other available architecture that I know of, except for nVidia (as used by Diamond). Any implementation of a graphics API which supports splines on those architectures firsts breaks the splines & curved surfaces into some number of flat polys. Cheers, PI

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>Date: Mon, 2 Oct 1995 16:01:32 GMT >Newsgroups: rec.autos.simulators >Subject: Re: Diamond Launches Diamond Edge 3D Card & my old > stealth 64 vram >>>Hell, no, it's a whole new video card. I really don't > want to use >>>their wave table since their is no memory on it. I'd > rather keep my >>>AWE32 as the wavetable card. >>The AWE will probably eat dirt compared to the Edge's > sound. I have the >>AWE BTW, not good without expansion. >Plus the Edge uses system memory for its wavetable sounds, >so you could plunk those AWE simms in your motherboard and >use that memory for other stuff too, right? >I can't see why people are complaining that the Edge would >replace their video cards, when in most cases it will be a >better video card than what they already had for 2D stuff. >An ATI Mach 64 for around $200 plus a 3D Blaster for $350 is >over $500, while the Edge will be at least $200 less than >that combination, with sound capability to boot. Just sell >your old video card or keep it as a backup, you still come >out ahead. While Diamond products aren't always perfect, > they >have a better signal to noise ratio than Creative Labs gear. >Are any systems venders like Micron, Dell, Quantex, etc.. > planning >on creating Edge bundles? Seems like it would lower the >price since they wouldn't need to include a soundcard.

I saw a demo of the Diamond Edge at the ComputerMania show in Anaheim, California, yesterday, and the MSRP posted was $419.

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>Date: 2 Oct 1995 20:09:05 GMT >Newsgroups: rec.autos.simulators >Subject: Re: Diamond Launches Diamond Edge 3D Card & my old > stealth 64 vram >>I saw a demo of the Diamond Edge at the ComputerMania show > in >>Anaheim, California, yesterday, and the MSRP posted was $419 >. >Come on now Ed, you can't just post this without giving us > some >details. Did you see it in action so to speak? If so what >kind of performance did you observe? Did you get to see any > of >the included games (ie. NASCAR)? >-- >Eric T. Busch >Emory University

The only game that I saw on display in the hour or so I spent at the show was Virtua Fighter Remix. I don't know what kind of computer it was running on, but I assume it was a Pentium. The game looked good; it was in hi-res, was fluid, and didn't pixelate in close-up views, but it didn't appear to incorporate any light sourcing. Also, it looked to be in 256 color mode. Basically, it looked like a console game. I would hope that the hardware is capable of more, with the right software support. Ed

>>According to Diamond Tech Support, the VRAM version contains the >>NVidia chipset, which is a bit faster than the SGS chipset. >I think that is entirely due to the VRAM, and the chipsets are exactly >the same with the exception of VRAM/DRAM support. Exactly. NVidia designed the chipset for both DRAM and VRAM. They licensed the design to SGS-Thompson, who manufactures all the chips. NVidia markets the VRAM version under their own name, while SGS-Thompson gets to market the DRAM version under their name. Clear as mud, eh? :) --John John Bennett =-=-=-=-=-=-= "They listened intently to what he said, Phoenix, Arizona USA =-=-= and then they ate him." - Anonymous www.primenet.com/~bennett = Protect your right to privacy, while it lasts! Finger for PGP public key = Contact the Phil Zimmermann Legal Defense Fund:

>Gee...When your the best, everyone has to take their "shot"... >Mike Carrothers >Raleigh NC. I'm not sure what you mean. The AWE is the best? As I said, not without being expanded. -- http://widget.ecn.purdue.edu/~fmah

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>>>Hell, no, it's a whole new video card. I really don't want to use >>>their wave table since their is no memory on it. I'd rather keep my >>>AWE32 as the wavetable card. >>The AWE will probably eat dirt compared to the Edge's sound. I have the >>AWE BTW, not good without expansion. >Plus the Edge uses system memory for its wavetable sounds, >so you could plunk those AWE simms in your motherboard and >use that memory for other stuff too, right?

Err, no, you can't do that. BTW, I'm no fan of the AWE32, but I really can't wait for gravis to release drivers for my Ultrasound :( Well that's easier said than done since most people will want the Edge rather than a USED Stealth. Well, Gateway is selling the Matrox right now and DELL seems to be using those rotten #9 video cards exclusively! I'm buying a DELL Pentium 133 with the cheapest card they sell. I'll wait until the REAL video cards come out and upgrade. Yours truly, ___ ___ / ) /) / ) / ___ _ __ __ __ _// /__/ _ _ _ _ \___/_</_/ (_(_/_/ (_(_/__ / _/_/ )_/)_(_)_/ )_</__ ) () _______ ________ ________ Just on the border of your waking mind / ___/\ / _____/\ / __ /\ There lies another time / ___/\// /____ \// __ / / Where darkness and light are one /______/\//_______/\ /__/ /__/ / And as you tread the halls of sanity \______\/ \_______\/ \__\/\__\/ You feel so glad to be unable to go beyond (everything 'cept anchovies!) I have a message from another time... -=:)>}] EAST COAST ANIME [{<(:=- ELO: "Prologue" -=- Daicon IV

>Gee...When your the best, everyone has to take their "shot"... The AWE is the best? Since when? It's music quality and price/performance has hardly been heralded, and from my experience it deserves the criticism, especially considering the price and the fact Creative was one of the few boards that required you to load 80K of drivers to get General Midi compatibility which many board makers were able to do in hardware for far cheaper. Creative has this annoying habit of making these bizarre cost-cutting decisions which really don't make any sense in the long run (SB16 Value? Multi-CD? SB-16Basic? Vibra? Sheesh!).

Why not? If you throw a few extra megabytes of RAM in your main system for the EDGE to use for sound, it's not going to be using that memory ALL the time, only when making noise. At other times you could use that memory for photoshop or whatever instead of having it rot in your soundcard. Putting all that RAM in an AWE seems like a terrible waste to me. So this seems like a real good incentive for ditching an AWE and getting the EDGE. Why didn't you think this would work?

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>>>>Hell, no, it's a whole new video card. I really don't want to use >>>>their wave table since their is no memory on it. I'd rather keep my >>>>AWE32 as the wavetable card. >>>The AWE will probably eat dirt compared to the Edge's sound. I have the >>>AWE BTW, not good without expansion. >>Plus the Edge uses system memory for its wavetable sounds, >>so you could plunk those AWE simms in your motherboard and >>use that memory for other stuff too, right? >Err, no, you can't do that. BTW, I'm no fan of the AWE32, but I >really can't wait for gravis to release drivers for my Ultrasound :( >>I can't see why people are complaining that the Edge would >>replace their video cards, when in most cases it will be a >>better video card than what they already had for 2D stuff. >>An ATI Mach 64 for around $200 plus a 3D Blaster for $350 is >>over $500, while the Edge will be at least $200 less than >>that combination, with sound capability to boot. Just sell >>your old video card or keep it as a backup, you still come >>out ahead. While Diamond products aren't always perfect, they >>have a better signal to noise ratio than Creative Labs gear. >Well that's easier said than done since most people will want the Edge >rather than a USED Stealth. >>Are any systems venders like Micron, Dell, Quantex, etc.. planning >>on creating Edge bundles? Seems like it would lower the >>price since they wouldn't need to include a soundcard. >Well, Gateway is selling the Matrox right now and DELL seems to be >using those rotten #9 video cards exclusively! I'm buying a DELL >Pentium 133 with the cheapest card they sell. I'll wait until the >REAL video cards come out and upgrade. >Yours truly, > ___ ___ > / ) /) / )

Hey me too.. I almost bought the #9 imagine with my p133 dell. I am so glad that I went through Sega webpage and found out about the edge. So, I told them I wanted no option on the video card. Now, I only have to wait for the Edge 3D. Atip

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>I can't see why people are complaining that the Edge would >replace their video cards, when in most cases it will be a >better video card than what they already had for 2D stuff. >An ATI Mach 64 for around $200 plus a 3D Blaster for $350 is >over $500, while the Edge will be at least $200 less than >that combination, with sound capability to boot. Just sell >your old video card or keep it as a backup, you still come >out ahead. While Diamond products aren't always perfect, they >have a better signal to noise ratio than Creative Labs gear.

Well I neither a friend or foe of diamond, but yesterday I saw a demo of Nascar racing on a tv show. One of Nascar unaccelerated. The second of Nascar accelerated with a card run with the NVidia chip. There was no difference at all in the frame rate!!!!! They said you can't see a difference because they run both on a pentium. The graphics weren't smooth at all. Isn't that supposed to be at an accelerated game. I think its because of the lack of Z-buffer of the nvidia chip and because of the lack of nornal poliygon acceleration which Nascar still uses not the strange NVidia algorithm. I still don't know what to think about the card. Werner Punz

I have to agree, the AWE32 is a piece of junk and I'm really disappointed in _both_ the MIDI sounds of it and the signal/noise ratio, which is less than acceptable for a serious gamer. NASCAR sucks on it, with really irritating noise on the background (you have to turn treble down to get anything resembling clear sound), and the fiddling with the drivers one has to go through is idiotic, for chrissakes, Roland has had hardware GM combatibility since the SCC-1, which has been on sales since what, 1991? Tommi Pajari (who is sorry to have paid 2KFIM for SB AWE32)

Ummm... what's 'the gravis grip'? Tommi Pajari

>> >Gee...When your the best, everyone has to take their "shot"... >> The AWE is the best? Since when? It's music quality and >> price/performance has hardly been heralded, and from my experience it >> deserves the criticism, especially considering the price and the fact >> Creative was one of the few boards that required you to load 80K of >> drivers to get General Midi compatibility which many board makers were >> able to do in hardware for far cheaper. Creative has this annoying >> habit of making these bizarre cost-cutting decisions which really >> don't make any sense in the long run (SB16 Value? Multi-CD? >> SB-16Basic? Vibra? Sheesh!). >I have to agree, the AWE32 is a piece of junk and I'm really disappointed >in _both_ the MIDI sounds of it and the signal/noise ratio, which is >less than acceptable for a serious gamer. NASCAR sucks on it, with really >irritating noise on the background (you have to turn treble down to get >anything resembling clear sound), and the fiddling with the drivers one has >to go through is idiotic, for chrissakes, Roland has had hardware GM >combatibility since the SCC-1, which has been on sales since what, 1991? >Tommi Pajari (who is sorry to have paid 2KFIM for SB AWE32) The MIDI samples and the MIDI emgine come from one of the leaders in the MIDI keyboard industry (Emu systems Inc), been used for years by serious musicians. S/N ratio is as good or better than every other card out there. AS far as background noise in NASCAR, never heard it, besides MIDI and WAVE are two different things. The only drivers that are needed to get GM compatibility are for Windows, DOS drivers (CONFIG.SYS) are not required. Those "bizzare cost-cutting decisions" give the guys who can't afford to spend alot on their systems, a chance to experience games like they were meant to be played. As for the Roland card, excellent card, but $400 is a little steep for ***. But I guess you can't please everyone, someone will always complain!! Mike Carrothers (Who is happy with his AWE)

Carrothers) writes:

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>>> >Gee...When your the best, everyone has to take their "shot"... >>> The AWE is the best? Since when? It's music quality and >>> price/performance has hardly been heralded, and from my experience >it >>> deserves the criticism, especially considering the price and the >fact >>> Creative was one of the few boards that required you to load 80K of >>> drivers to get General Midi compatibility which many board makers >were >>> able to do in hardware for far cheaper. Creative has this annoying >>> habit of making these bizarre cost-cutting decisions which really >>> don't make any sense in the long run (SB16 Value? Multi-CD? >>> SB-16Basic? Vibra? Sheesh!). >>I have to agree, the AWE32 is a piece of junk and I'm really >disappointed >>in _both_ the MIDI sounds of it and the signal/noise ratio, which is >>less than acceptable for a serious gamer. NASCAR sucks on it, with >really >>irritating noise on the background (you have to turn treble down to >get >>anything resembling clear sound), and the fiddling with the drivers >one has >>to go through is idiotic, for chrissakes, Roland has had hardware GM >>combatibility since the SCC-1, which has been on sales since what, >1991? >>Tommi Pajari (who is sorry to have paid 2KFIM for SB AWE32) >The MIDI samples and the MIDI emgine come from one of the leaders in >the MIDI keyboard industry (Emu systems Inc), been used for years by >serious musicians. S/N ratio is as good or better than every other

card >out there. AS far as background noise in NASCAR, never heard it, >besides MIDI and WAVE are two different things. The only drivers that >are needed to get GM compatibility are for Windows, DOS drivers >(CONFIG.SYS) are not required. Those "bizzare cost-cutting decisions" >give the guys who can't afford to spend alot on their systems, a chance

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>to experience games like they were meant to be played. >As for the Roland card, excellent card, but $400 is a little steep for >***. But I guess you can't please everyone, someone will always >complain!! >Mike Carrothers (Who is happy with his AWE)

Follow-up to my last post...You DO need to load AWEUTIL...12K of upper mem...Oh well...The price you pay for flexability. Mike Carrothers

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>The MIDI samples and the MIDI emgine come from one of the leaders in >the MIDI keyboard industry (Emu systems Inc), been used for years by >serious musicians. S/N ratio is as good or better than every other card >out there. AS far as background noise in NASCAR, never heard it, >besides MIDI and WAVE are two different things. The only drivers that >are needed to get GM compatibility are for Windows, DOS drivers >(CONFIG.SYS) are not required. Those "bizzare cost-cutting decisions" >give the guys who can't afford to spend alot on their systems, a chance >to experience games like they were meant to be played. >As for the Roland card, excellent card, but $400 is a little steep for >***. But I guess you can't please everyone, someone will always >complain!! >Mike Carrothers (Who is happy with his AWE)

From what I know, the patches themselves were not designed by E-mu. Maybe the samples came from them. The Roland will cost about $200 US for the SCD-15 or about $150 SCD-10. Apparently the new Yamaha DBXG50 (or some such name) is better and costs about $170 (newer technology). The AWE lacks very much in percussion. I know, I play drums and also make the NEWGM 8MB AWE patchset. AWE stuff ftp.***works.net ftp.inc.net ftp.lysator.liu.se -- http://widget.ecn.purdue.edu/~fmah

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>Well I neither a friend or foe of diamond, but yesterday I saw a demo >of Nascar racing on a tv show. One of Nascar unaccelerated. The second >of Nascar accelerated with a card run with the NVidia chip. There was >no difference at all in the frame rate!!!!! They said you can't see a >difference because they run both on a pentium. The graphics weren't >smooth at all. Isn't that supposed to be at an accelerated game. I >think its because of the lack of Z-buffer of the nvidia chip and >because of the lack of nornal poliygon acceleration which Nascar still >uses not the strange NVidia algorithm. I still don't know what to >think about the card.

Which is why I, and others, while praising the feature list of the Edge, have always stated "wait and _see_ the games" before making any commitment. Nascar wasn't impressive on the Millenium either, perhaps this was a quick n dirty port or the Nvidia is just not that powerful, I'll judge when I see it myself. But since when did a Pentium run Nascar in SVGA at the maximum frame rate? Pretty dissapointing.

Hi, Did you really saw the edge??? How is it like?? I have some questions about this card, maybe they have been already asked but anyway... 1. Does this card replace my ET4000/W32p or does the Edge operate next to the ET4000. 2. When is the edge for sale, and how much will it cost. 3. Which games will use these cards, does older game like TFX use them, or only the newest (specially written FOR the Edge) use the Edge. Hope you can answer this questions, because I wanted to buy a sony playstation, but with the edge in mind I will wait a few weeks.... grtx from the Netherlands, Angelo

>Because of the fact that I am totally lazy when it comes to describing stuff >(even with my girlfriend) give customer service a call, and ask for the >'spiff sheet' for the Edge. I really don't know where to start, but the >quality is excellent (workmanship, performance, etc...) I am very impressed. >You can also call the sales fax-back to get some answers. Eric, we've been discussing the Edge for weeks. Everyone knows it's "specs" by now. Specs mean little to real-world performance, especially the Edge which computes 3D graphics in a way no other accelerator does, so even the Specs hardly help us.

>The edge can play multiple wave files at the same time. Something the awe >can't do. I've seen the edge, it is ***ing awesome! >-Eric Hi Eric How much is the 3D Edge? How many MB of RAM does it come with? Is it 64 or 128 bits? Cheers Chris

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>hey did any of you guys notice the email header on that post?f > ^^^^^^^^^^ >to say that is a biased post is a huge >understatement >when techieswho very very often ignore email >problem reports go live on usenet take eveything >they say with apinch of salt

Wow, didn't notice that. Pretty pathetic, really. Regardles, the pics in the Diamond Edge ad in PC Gamer do far more damage to the product that an immature employee baiting the public.

I know that EMU can do good samples... the ones on the AWE are compressed into 1 MB though... and that's why they suck. Never heard it? then you must either be A. deaf, or B. not in possession of proper HIFI equipment. First: both MIDI & WAVE suffer from the crappy S/N ratio (caused, i think, by the cheap mixer on the AWE) Second: (have not tested this so not 100% sure) the drivers that AWE loads in config.sys are for DOS programs... Windows does not need them. I read this from the manual.. so i guess it should be true... Sure... it's a mediocre card for someone who cannot afford better... I was just pointing out that it's definitely not the best as someone said earlier... And: I will complain as long as I can't buy proper equipment for playing Papyrus games <***ed?> Tommi Pajari

Funny, I've got a friend that works over at Diamond, and while he says that the Edge is a nice card and comparible to the Millenium, it will be a close call and the Millenium would probably come out ahead (he has a 4 meg Millenium and has had extensive use of the 3D Edge card at work). If the 3D Edge does come out significantly ahead of the Millenium, I might pick one up. But if it's only a little faster, what's the point? Most people are buying faster video cards like the Millenium and the Edge for gam ing purposes, and for awhile not many games are going to take advantage of what either of these cards have to offer. My P90 with a 4 meg Millenium blazes past any P120's I've played with in *** just because it has the Millenium in it, and that impresses me enough to keep it for awhile. I would encourage people not to run out and return their Millenium just because Diamond is preaching about their card. As a Tech support person for a leading operating system company (actually, probably "the" leading o s company), I've seen the problems that Diamond has keeping up with drivers and compatibility (the fact that the Diamond MultiMedia 4000 is COMPLETELY incompatible with almost everything you can throw at it comes to mind), and this makes me VERY weary of Diamond to say the least. If, when their Edge card comes out, I see good results and compatibility, then I'll consider it, but for now Diamond is right up there with Gravis for me. They seem to leave good customers in the dust for would-be customers in t here future that they can make more money off of. Money is the name of the game, true, but who's more likely to buy something from them, a previously satisfied customer or someone who has heard from many people that Diamond tech support, product support, and driver support is lacking sorely. Just my thoughts, and please, flame me here if you're going to flame since this is not my account but I do read s groullthis gro : >> I got a demo of the Edge, and I was totally floored! I think everyone in the : >tech support dept wants one. The matrox doesn't even come close. : > : DETAILS, DETAILS! What did you see, what system was it on, what : resolution/colour depth, frame rate, the approximate humidity factor, : etc.

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> >hey did any of you guys notice the email header on that post?f > > ^^^^^^^^^^ > >to say that is a biased post is a huge > >understatement > >when techieswho very very often ignore email > >problem reports go live on usenet take eveything > >they say with apinch of salt > Wow, didn't notice that. Pretty pathetic, really. Regardles, the > pics in the Diamond Edge ad in PC Gamer do far more damage to the > product that an immature employee baiting the public.

In case you were all wondering, I could care less if you buy the card. It is a free contry and you can buy what ever you want. I was sending you all e-mail to be friendly, to pass on info on what I know. I regret sending any e-mail to add to the info, since you do nothing but cry like babies because I don't all the free time in the world to answer all of your trivial questions. -Take it easy Mr Glue...

>In case you were all wondering, I could care less if you buy the card. It is a >free contry and you can buy what ever you want. I was sending you all e-mail >to be friendly, to pass on info on what I know. I regret sending any e-mail to >add to the info, since you do nothing but cry like babies because I don't all >the free time in the world to answer all of your trivial questions. What "info" was that? You came on here, posted "I was blown away", then refused to give any details, because you were "too lazy". You didn't answer all of our "trivial" questions. You didn't answer one. Thankfully, I've talked with Nvidia and Diamond reps who are fare more mature. I'm sure your company would be delighted your boasting about the product, then refusing to answer questions, and then calling inquiries about their new product "trivial". Gee, the Edge must be quite inferior if you are already disgregarding potential customers in this manner. ***y twit.