Flipping In IndyCar And NASCAR Racing?

How come you can't flip your car in these games? Will you be able to in ICR II and the next NASCAR? -- ____________________________________________________________________________ Have: Edward Carter | The Red Hot Chili Peppers Rock!!!| '92 Honda Accord Newport Beach, CA, USA | IndyCar Racing Rules!!! | '95 Corvette ZR-1 White Male | Al Unser Jr. Kicks *** | '95 Suburban 454 4X4 ________________________________________________________________________________ Want: "Love Lone" on KROQ in | NASCAR Racing is cool too! | Vector Avtech WX-3 L.A. at 10:00pm RULES!!| Jeff Gordon And Rusty Wallace | Dodge Viper R.R. and D.D. are cool!| RULE!!! | Ferrari F40

How come you can't flip your car in these games? Will you be able to in ICR II and the next NASCAR? <<< Our current physics model is two-dimensional (well, 2.25 dimensional), so there is no flipping. IndyCar Racing II continues with the two-dimensional model, as will NASCAR Racing for Macintosh/Windows. Rick Genter Technical Lead, IndyCar Racing II/NASCAR Racing for Macintosh/Windows Papyrus Design Group, Inc.

Does this mean that there will be no curbs in ICR II? Is 90% blind turns, ie concrete tunnels, on the non-oval tracks realistic?? Who can make a good implementation of Surfers Paradise without curbs? More generally: If curbs aren't included in ICR II what then will truly seperate ICR II from its predecessor apart from the AI and a SVGA mode? Apart from the improved AI, will every other change be cosmetic? -- Terje Wold Johansen "I am your inferior superior." -- -- Dept. of Informatics, University of Oslo, Norway --

Roof Flaps.

Two-D is fine, but will the new versions be able to let you simulate "turning your head." Sometimes, when I'm really involved in trying to catch the guys up front, I don't realize that someone has pulled alongside. It'll be cool if I could take a quick glance to my left side before accidently ramming into them when entering a turn.. -- | Kev Lee _ , ,----, PPG IndyCar | | '90 Civic Hatchback _._ .___(_)|\===--, _.| | World Series | | '94 Civic Coupe _./ _ \' ,---------,--/ _ \'---' | | ,-=,( (_) ) | HONDA | ( (_) ) IndyCar Racing: | | Rather have a GSR '---'-\___/--'---------'--\___/ The Sim. by Papyrus | |_______________________The New Power in IndyCar Racing____________________|

I think that was meant to be a joke. Kirk

Papyrus lagging beind Microprose for once, there will apparently be curbs in F1GP II. In fact, I read that when the car rides over the curbs, the aerodynamic properties of the car changes. _________ ___________________________________________

RR> That depends on what you mean by cosmetic. If breakapart cars RR> are a cosmetic change, then, yes, I guess so. If the ability RR> to run on platforms other than DOS is a cosmetic change, then RR> yes, I guess so. Does the breakapart cars have any influence on the handling of the damaged car ? And (if yes above) can you go to your pit, and f.ex. have your nosecone replaced ? ------------------------------------------------------------------- --- t RM 1.3 U0418 t I started with nothing and still have most of it left.

Does this mean that there will be no curbs in ICR II? <<< There will be no curbs in ICR II. Apart from the improved AI, will every other change be cosmetic? <<< That depends on what you mean by cosmetic. If breakapart cars are a cosmetic change, then, yes, I guess so. If the ability to run on platforms other than DOS is a cosmetic change, then yes, I guess so. Rick Genter Technical Lead, IndyCar Racing II/NASCAR Racing for Macintosh/Windows Papyrus Design Group, Inc.

Roof Flaps. <<< IndyCars do not have roof flaps. (They don't even have much of a roof. :-) And while the roof flaps have helped NASCARs significantly, there are still times when they tumble. (Which race and driver was it this year who tumbled side-over-side about 7 times? - I think it was Talladega and one of the Labontes...) Rick Genter Technical Lead, IndyCar Racing II/NASCAR Racing for Macintosh/Windows Papyrus Design Group, Inc.

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> How come you can't flip your car in these games? Will you be able >to in ICR II and the next NASCAR? ><<< >Our current physics model is two-dimensional (well, 2.25 dimensional), so >there is no flipping. IndyCar Racing II continues with the two-dimensional >model, as will NASCAR Racing for Macintosh/Windows. >Rick Genter >Technical Lead, IndyCar Racing II/NASCAR Racing for Macintosh/Windows >Papyrus Design Group, Inc.

As I like to put it: those roof flaps work REALLY well!!! I would think that there's alot of extra added strain on the simulation to provide 3-dimensional flips into the air. Although it would be cool, I'd like to avoid the arcade-looking aerobatics moves some of those cars go thru when they "touch". wow! lookit that one! It went 150 feet in the air and blew up! Keep up the good work Rick! BTW, what kind of release date on the Mac version of NASCAR (or heck, is it out yet?) I have some Mac Friends I'd like to "get into this". And, are the carsets and setup files going to be compatible with the PC versions? Go #6 Mark Martin and #16 Ted Musgrave - Jack Roush Racing!! NASCAR Racing!! http://innet.com/~sean/nascar/nascar.html <--NASCAR Racing Sim page

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>Roof Flaps. ><<< >IndyCars do not have roof flaps. (They don't even have much of a roof. :-) >And while the roof flaps have helped NASCARs significantly, there are >still times when they tumble. (Which race and driver was it this year who >tumbled side-over-side about 7 times? - I think it was Talladega and one >of the Labontes...) >Rick Genter >Technical Lead, IndyCar Racing II/NASCAR Racing for Macintosh/Windows >Papyrus Design Group, Inc.

True. Indy cars. forgot about those. Uh, they have really good aerodynamic bodies that keep them on the ground - well, most of the time. Did you ever see that F1 race in Japan a few years ago when Gerhard Berger I think it was, ran into somebody from behind, and his whole car pitched STRAIGHT UP, then came back down... wow, that was awesome! BTW, it was one of the Hendrick machines - the Budweiser #25 Ken Schrader. Incidently, his teammate just barely touched his car. (Gordon) Go #6 Mark Martin and #16 Ted Musgrave - Jack Roush Racing!! NASCAR Racing!! http://innet.com/~sean/nascar/nascar.html <--NASCAR Racing Sim page

|> True. Indy cars. forgot about those. Uh, they have really good |> aerodynamic bodies that keep them on the ground - well, most of the |> time. Did you ever see that F1 race in Japan a few years ago when |> Gerhard Berger I think it was, ran into somebody from behind, and his |> whole car pitched STRAIGHT UP, then came back down... wow, that was |> awesome! Yes! And Christian Fittipaldi at Monza 1993, flipped his car 360 degrees, crossed the start/finish line in mid-air, and landed on 4 wheels! Boy, that was more awesome! And he was lucky, too! -- Isaac Wong | Protel Compiler Group TEL: (613) 763-6127 | Carleton University, Ottawa, Canada

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>|> True. Indy cars. forgot about those. Uh, they have really good >|> aerodynamic bodies that keep them on the ground - well, most of the >|> time. Did you ever see that F1 race in Japan a few years ago when >|> Gerhard Berger I think it was, ran into somebody from behind, and his >|> whole car pitched STRAIGHT UP, then came back down... wow, that was >|> awesome! >Yes! And Christian Fittipaldi at Monza 1993, flipped his car 360 degrees, >crossed the start/finish line in mid-air, and landed on 4 wheels! Boy, >that was more awesome! And he was lucky, too!

Yeah, that's right - I'd forgotten about that one. That WAS awesome! Winston Cup wise, I remember Mark Martin's back end lifting up (Daytona?) and Swervin' went underneath him. Like God took his hand and lifted up Mark's car to let Ernie by... Go #6 Mark Martin and #16 Ted Musgrave - Jack Roush Racing!! NASCAR Racing!! http://innet.com/~sean/nascar/nascar.html <--NASCAR Racing Sim page

>>There will be no curbs in ICR II. >Papyrus lagging beind Microprose for once, there will apparently be >curbs in F1GP II. "For once"? F1GP has always had curbs. How do you think I play "long jump"? :-) -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- Launchpad is an experimental internet BBS. The views of its users do not necessarily represent those of UNC-Chapel Hill, OIT, or the SysOps. -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --

BTW, what kind of release date on the Mac version of NASCAR (or heck, is it out yet?) I have some Mac Friends I'd like to "get into this". And, are the carsets and setup files going to be compatible with the PC versions? <<< NASCAR Racing for Macintosh/Windows is scheduled to be released during Q1 1996. The car sets and setups should be compatible, though the color palette is changing (in order to be friendlier to Windows users). We are looking at providing a converter that will convert from the old color palette to the new, and we should be releasing an update to the DOS version of NASCAR at the same time to use the new color palette. Rick Genter Technical Lead, IndyCar Racing II/NASCAR Racing for Macintosh/Windows Papyrus Design Group, Inc.

>NASCAR Racing for Macintosh/Windows is scheduled to be released during Q1 >1996. The car sets and setups should be compatible, though the color >palette is changing (in order to be friendlier to Windows users). We are >looking at providing a converter that will convert from the old color >palette to the new, and we should be releasing an update to the DOS >version of NASCAR at the same time to use the new color palette. What features will the Windows version offer that the DOS one won't have? Will there be an "upgrade" option? Will the DOS version be supported in the future? Just weighing my options :) I'll most likely buy any and everything for NASCAR Racing that ya'll put out anyhow... Professional Consultant

>Papyrus lagging beind Microprose for once, there will apparently be >curbs in F1GP II. In fact, I read that when the car rides over the >curbs, the aerodynamic properties of the car changes. To hell with no ripple strips, sad as it is! What about the lack of multiplayer LAN support! If MicroProse includes this in F1GP2, Papyrus can kiss it's sorry **** goodbye ISFAM&MMRC! * Compuserve: [sub cancx -> CIS address invalid] * * Fidonet: 3:640/377 * from Keiron Rado in Brisbane, Qld, Australia *

Forgive me, but the ability to run on other platforms does not mean a thing to a user who only has ONE platform. That's like saying that a car stereo is good because it will fit in a Ford as well as a Chevy. I have always loved Papyrus products but this thing about curbs, together with a nagging feeling about corners being cut in the implementation of the tracks, leads me to think that F1GP II will crucify ICR II (in europe at least.....especially if Papyrus allow VIE to handle the releases). Breaking cars sound nice, but there isn't much after the nose cone that can break on an Indycar and still leave it driveable, unlike a Nascar. This may be heresay but I don't recall track faults like these in F1GP. In ICR/NASCAR we have an inaccurate Cleveland pitlane, a VERY badly implemented tri-oval at Talledega, grip problems at Richmond, bent pitlanes that should be straight and cars that can be 5 secs behind me at some tracks and level on others when qualifying. That said I still play them, but would so love to be able to go around Talladega with my foot to the floor ALL the time. Also, given that Papyrus are watching (!), could they give a technical reason why the 'tall-vga' resolution is not used to overcome the heinous frame rate problems in NASCAR? 320x400 provides a good performance vs detail solution but so few games seem to use it. ============================================================== ==============================================================

RI->IndyCars do not have roof flaps. (They don't even have much of a roof. :-) ->And while the roof flaps have helped NASCARs significantly, there are ->still times when they tumble. (Which race and driver was it this year who ->tumbled side-over-side about 7 times? - I think it was Talladega and one ->of the Labontes...) I believe it was Terry Labonte in the Monte Carlo Tide-sponsered car 5. Ask Rusty Wallace how good those roof flaps work too. The IndyCars don't usually get airborne unless they run over each others wheels, and after seeing the other drivers go through each other in IndyCar, I doubt that could ever happen. <g> ... Beware of hip and rum drivers.

<snip> VIE will propably release the ICR2 before christmas, so this shouldn't be a problem. <snip> F1GP didn't have serious faults in tracks, althought there were few inaccuracies and bugs like glass walls in Monaco (no wall, but car can't cross curbs) and hologram tire barriers in Spa. Hockenheim ostkurve (?) is one example of inaccuracies, normally 80 km/h chicane, but in game it can be taken out at 180-220 km/h. I think the major F1GP problems were steering assistance (car drives like a train) and too sensitive steering if it was turned off. Both ICR and Nascar have good controls. You can choose the driving lines, it feels realistic enough, but is still controllable with decent joystick. I agree about track inaccuracies. The qualifying time problem is minor because it can be fixed with text editor, but why it wasn't done by Papyrus? <snip> <snip> I think the 320x400 isn't "standard", but it seems to work fine in FS5 and USNF. Has anyone done any tests about it's speed gain compared to 640x480? I didn't notice much difference between USNF 320x400 and 640x480 with CL5428 on DX2-66/8MB. Anyway, I'll propably buy both ICR2 and F1GP2, if they have fixed the AI problems on some tracks (ICR) and have decent driving model (F1GP2). Pasi.

What features will the Windows version offer that the DOS one won't have? <<< Primarily a *much* easier to use user interface. For example, the garage will be a single dialog, from which you can view all of your settings and change them directly. No more "More" and "Less" :-). Just type in a number! Will there be an "upgrade" option? <<< Probably not, but that's a question I'd have to defer to marketing. Will the DOS version be supported in the future? <<< Yes. Despite what Microsoft and some of the pundits say, we do not believe that DOS is dead. We will believe that when the market numbers tell us that, but not before. Rick Genter Technical Lead, IndyCar Racing II/NASCAR Racing for Macintosh/Windows Papyrus Design Group, Inc.

In ICR/NASCAR we have an inaccurate Cleveland pitlane, a VERY badly implemented tri-oval at Talledega, grip problems at Richmond, bent pitlanes that should be straight and cars that can be 5 secs behind me at some tracks and level on others when qualifying. That said I still play them, but would so love to be able to go around Talladega with my foot to the floor ALL the time. <<< All of the ICR tracks are being revisited for ICR II; with its vastly improved AI, I think you'll find the ICR II tracks better to drive on. We know of the problem with Talledega and, believe it or not, we are working on a fix. I have no timeframe for a new Talledega track file. I'm certain, however, that we'll have it done in time for NASCAR for Macintosh/Windows. The grip problems at Richmond need to be investigated; if I hear anything I'll post to the group. Also, given that Papyrus are watching (!), could they give a technical reason why the 'tall-vga' resolution is not used to overcome the heinous frame rate problems in NASCAR? 320x400 provides a good performance vs detail solution but so few games seem to use it. <<< My understanding is that the reason that few games use it is that not all video cards support it. The last thing we need is to have tens of thousands of people calling us asking why "medium" resolution doesn't work for them... Rick Genter Technical Lead, IndyCar Racing II/NASCAR Racing for Macintosh/Windows Papyrus Design Group, Inc.

: >>> : Roof Flaps. : <<< : IndyCars do not have roof flaps. (They don't even have much of a roof. :-) : And while the roof flaps have helped NASCARs significantly, there are : still times when they tumble. (Which race and driver was it this year who : tumbled side-over-side about 7 times? - I think it was Talladega and one : of the Labontes...) Close, but no cigar :) It was Kenny Schrader (#25 Budweiser car) and wow, what a ride he took! ======================================================================= | The Miller Music BBS - A Christ-Centered BBS - 24 hrs 7 days | | 607-898-3139 24 Hrs. 7 Days reg.LORD,Planets:TEOS,lots of others! | | 8 gigs of Great Files! OS/2, Windows, Games, Utils, Patches, MORE! | | Team OS/2 Live so the Preacher won't have to lie at your funeral! | =======================================================================

Really effecient "roof flaps"...(grin) Mike McCallister - Huntington, WV. Cabell County Sheriff's Departmnent Special Services Unit. (SSU) AKA " Blakes Snakes" Dale Earnhardt - 7 time Winston Cup Champion.

What about curbing? Let's face it, curbing is a requirement for quick lap times at almost any street course. An another thing, too. This full course yellow for a minor bump in a corner has got to go. Road courses use local yellows... This is a major shortcoming for ICR 1, NASCAR is ok, because that is what NASCAR does. One more thing to add to my wish list, runoff areas, better yet, runoff areas with a different coefficient of friction. I find myself trashing my car with damage on where that really wouldn't happen. If you get a little wide at turn 3 at Road America, you don't hit a wall, you keep you're foot on it and ride it back on. Not so in ICR. At RA, the same is true for turn 1,5,6,8,12, and 14. I'm sure the same thing applies to other tracks. It might be as simple as changing the track model to move the concrete back to allow some runoff on road courses. Thanks for your attention. --- The opinions expressed herein are those of the author and not his employer or it's subsidiaries.................... ---

To be accurate, it was Ken Schrader in the #25 Budweiser Chevrolet. -- Tony Johns

: An another thing, too. This full course yellow for a minor bump in a corner : has got to go. Road courses use local yellows... This is a major : shortcoming for ICR 1, NASCAR is ok, because that is what NASCAR does. Actually, Nascar HAS local yellows... I saw them at Watkins Glen! I kind of curious; How hard it would be to implement local yellows in auto simulators? For example, for local yellows: 1) You would have to keep all cars from passing during the local yellow period. 2) You would have to reduce the speed of all cars. 3) Penalize driver if passing during local yellow... or have a rev limiter but that wouldn't be realistic, would it. 4) somehow differentiate between full-course yellows and local yellows signals... In Nascar, full course yellows are denoted by a yellow flag in the top center of the screen. Can't have the same yellow flag in the same position for local yellows. This brings up the addition of flag men which leads to other types of flag displays such as oil on the track, etc...etc... What else? BTW: didn't F1GP have flag men (local yellows) or was I dreaming? I forget... haven't played it in a long time... I know... I know... auto racing sacrilege!!! Ujjal Bansel

: RI->IndyCars do not have roof flaps. (They don't even have much of a roof. :-) : ->And while the roof flaps have helped NASCARs significantly, there are : ->still times when they tumble. (Which race and driver was it this year who : ->tumbled side-over-side about 7 times? - I think it was Talladega and one : ->of the Labontes...) : I believe it was Terry Labonte in the Monte Carlo Tide-sponsered car 5. Ask : Rusty Wallace how good those roof flaps work too. The IndyCars don't usually : get airborne unless they run over each others wheels, and after seeing the : other drivers go through each other in IndyCar, I doubt that could ever : happen. <g> Stan Fox at indy 500 was airborne... How's he doing anyway? absolutely amazing recovery. <shudder> unforgetable... <shudder> Ujjal Bansel : ... Beware of hip and rum drivers.

Will the cars in the new versions of Indycar and NASCAR have more simulated mechanical problems. For instance, you always hear about Indycar drivers complain after the race that they didn't have 3rd and 5th gear anylonger during the race or had difficulty in putting the car in 1st when trying to leave the pits. Another thing that happens is that of brake lock-up like in Indycar and brake fade in Indycar and NASCAR. Will we see any of this in the next releases or future releases. -- Nick DiGiovanni Port Coquitlam, B.C. '95 KDX-200-H1

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>Will the cars in the new versions of Indycar and NASCAR have more simulated >mechanical problems. For instance, you always hear about Indycar drivers >complain after the race that they didn't have 3rd and 5th gear anylonger during >the race or had difficulty in putting the car in 1st when trying to leave the >pits. >Another thing that happens is that of brake lock-up like in Indycar and brake >fade in Indycar and NASCAR. Will we see any of this in the next releases or >future releases. >-- >Nick DiGiovanni >Port Coquitlam, B.C. >'95 KDX-200-H1

Losing a cylinder in NASCAR is a common occurance too... it'd be nice to see them just out there "running for points" Go #6 Mark Martin and #16 Ted Musgrave - Jack Roush Racing!! NASCAR Racing!! [link lost in import: /~sean/nascar/nascar.html] <--NASCAR Racing Sim page

Sometimes, when I'm really involved in trying to catch the guys up front, I don't realize that someone has pulled alongside. It'll be cool if I could take a quick glance to my left side before accidently ramming into them when entering a turn.. <<< The rear view mirrors in IndyCar II use a "wide-angle" effect so that they will show you cars that are to your side as well as behind you. Rick Genter Technical Lead, IndyCar Racing II/NASCAR Racing for Macintosh/Windows Papyrus Design Group, Inc.

that we'll have it done in time for NASCAR for I keep hearing that the next release of ICR and NASCAR will come out for Windows 95 and for DOS (and Macintosh). My question is; Will it provide the same frame rate if you buy either the Windows 95 Version or the DOS Version? In other words, in the Windows 95 version will the game be a DOS-mode game (but the main difference is that it is installed under Windows and having a better menu system)? Or will there be a decrease in performance with the Windows 95 version compared with the DOS version? I have been running NASCAR and Indycar under Windows 95 but in DOS mode only for a better frame rate (and because they are DOS based games). I would like to run the new versions of these games in Windows 95 at the same frame rate as their DOS counterparts. Is this going to be possible in the new releases? Thanks. -- Nick DiGiovanni Port Coquitlam, B.C. '95 KDX-200-H1

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>> Our current physics model is two-dimensional (well, 2.25 dimensional), so >> there is no flipping. IndyCar Racing II continues with the two-dimensional >> model, as will NASCAR Racing for Macintosh/Windows. >> Rick Genter >> Technical Lead, IndyCar Racing II/NASCAR Racing for Macintosh/Windows >> Papyrus Design Group, Inc. >Two-D is fine, but will the new versions be able to let you simulate >"turning your head." Sometimes, when I'm really involved in trying to

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ >catch the guys up front, I don't realize that someone has pulled >alongside. It'll be cool if I could take a quick glance to my left side >before accidently ramming into them when entering a turn.. DEFINITELY! When will there be HMD support? Real door-to-door racing is impossible without peripheral vision.

: >>> : >>> : Also, given that Papyrus are watching (!), could they give a technical : reason : why the 'tall-vga' resolution is not used to overcome the heinous frame : rate : problems in NASCAR? 320x400 provides a good performance vs detail solution : but : so few games seem to use it. : <<< : My understanding is that the reason that few games use it is that not all : video cards support it. The last thing we need is to have tens of : thousands of people calling us asking why "medium" resolution doesn't work : for them... Ahm, Rick, even the oldest VGA-card supports a 320x400x256 colour mode. You just have to switch to 320x200x256-Mode and then change i think two of the STANDARD VGA-registers. You can read how to achive this in almost any book about programming of VGA-cards. I have FS5.1 and had SystemShock-CD. They both support 320x200, 320x400, 640x400 (which is nonstandard too, but can be accomplished by using the UNIVESA-driver, which supports almost any videocard supported by it), and 640x480. My (personal) opinions: (AMD486/66 (clocked at 80), 8MB ram, CL 5426) Fs5.1: all details on: 320x200: very low image quality, excellent performance 320x400: acceptible image quality, good performance 640x400: good image quality, bad performanc if many details 640x480: excellent image quality, very bad performance SystemShock in Fullscreen Mode (detail levels not adjustable): 320x200: low IQ, totally smooth 320x400: good IQ, mostly smooth 640x400: slightly better IQ, very slow 640x480: almost no difference to 640x400 mode. Nascar racing: 320x200: low image quality, mostly smooth with all details on 640x480: excellent IQ, barely playable even with no details Summary: introducing a 320x400 mode in Nascar (and Indy II) would be a great (and inexpensive) improvement !!!!! Greetings Ralf

Will the cars in the new versions of Indycar and NASCAR have more simulated mechanical problems. For instance, you always hear about Indycar drivers complain after the race that they didn't have 3rd and 5th gear anylonger during the race or had difficulty in putting the car in 1st when trying to leave the pits. <<< Another realism option we are introducing in IndyCar Racing II are random breakdowns for the player. We are not going to have the failure of individual gears however; this is more a time issue than anything else. Another thing that happens is that of brake lock-up like in Indycar and brake fade in Indycar and NASCAR. <<< Brake lock would require us to rework our physics model (which really doesn't support it). Perhaps someday... Rick Genter Technical Lead, IndyCar Racing II/NASCAR Racing for Macintosh/Windows Papyrus Design Group, Inc.

My question is; Will it provide the same frame rate if you buy either the Windows 95 Version or the DOS Version? In other words, in the Windows 95 version will the game be a DOS-mode game (but the main difference is that it is installed under Windows and having a better menu system)? Or will there be a decrease in performance with the Windows 95 version compared with the DOS version? <<< The frame rate under Windows 95 is *highly* dependent upon your Windows 95 video drivers. I've seen the same machine (P-66) do high res, all textures on at 11 FPS under DirectDraw and 2 FPS under WinG. Under Windows 3.1/Win32s (which we are currently not planning to release) WinG gave ~11 FPS. It all depends on the video driver... BTW, best case Windows 95 and DOS seem to be running neck and neck in frame rate (within 0.5 FPS of each other). Rick Genter Technical Lead, IndyCar Racing II/NASCAR Racing for Macintosh/Windows Papyrus Design Group, Inc.

Summary: introducing a 320x400 mode in Nascar (and Indy II) would be a great (and inexpensive) improvement !!!!! <<< Perhaps great, not inexpensive. On DOS we would have to have 320x400 artwork to go with 320x400 game play. It takes a lot of manpower to do the artwork. I'll look into a 320x400 mode for future efforts, but frankly, the market is moving ot 640x480x8 bit and beyond... Rick Genter Technical Lead, IndyCar Racing II/NASCAR Racing for Macintosh/Windows Papyrus Design Group, Inc.

Rick, Can you tell us which video cards are supportting DirectDraw? I'll be needing to buy a new card (my Viper just barely supports win95 as it is) and as suspect much of my new video cards time will be spent watching ICR II, I want to get one that works well with it. As you would likely know better than anyone, what is your opinion as the BEST video card for Windows95, DirectDraw and IndyCar Racing II? Thanks for your advice. -James

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> My question is; Will it provide the > same frame rate if you buy either the Windows 95 Version or the DOS > Version? > In other words, in the Windows 95 version will the game be a DOS-mode game > (but > the main difference is that it is installed under Windows and having a > better > menu system)? Or will there be a decrease in performance with the Windows > 95 > version compared with the DOS version? > <<< > The frame rate under Windows 95 is *highly* dependent upon your Windows 95 > video drivers. I've seen the same machine (P-66) do high res, all textures > on at 11 FPS under DirectDraw and 2 FPS under WinG. Under Windows > 3.1/Win32s (which we are currently not planning to release) WinG gave ~11 > FPS. It all depends on the video driver... > BTW, best case Windows 95 and DOS seem to be running neck and neck in > frame rate (within 0.5 FPS of each other). > Rick Genter > Technical Lead, IndyCar Racing II/NASCAR Racing for Macintosh/Windows > Papyrus Design Group, Inc.

: >Will the cars in the new versions of Indycar and NASCAR have more simulated : >mechanical problems. For instance, you always hear about Indycar drivers : >complain after the race that they didn't have 3rd and 5th gear anylonger during : >the race or had difficulty in putting the car in 1st when trying to leave the : >pits. : >Another thing that happens is that of brake lock-up like in Indycar and brake : >fade in Indycar and NASCAR. Will we see any of this in the next releases or : >future releases. : Losing a cylinder in NASCAR is a common occurance too... it'd be nice : to see them just out there "running for points" Perhaps the failures could be more common for the first season or two, but as a driver gets more races the frequency of failures would drop. Scott

Sorry again, I must a comment on this :-) : >>> : Summary: introducing a 320x400 mode in Nascar (and Indy II) would be a : great : (and inexpensive) improvement !!!!! : <<< : Perhaps great, not inexpensive. On DOS we would have to have 320x400 : artwork to go with 320x400 game play. It takes a lot of manpower to do the : artwork. I don't know exactly how your simulation model works, but i assume it's independent from the resolution until the point of projecting a 3d-like model to the 2d-screen. You are already scaling the bitmaps to match the resolution (hey, there is no different artwork (i.e. bitmaps) for the cars in hires and lowres). That means you have just to adjust your scaling parameters to match 320x400 instead of 320x200 or 640x480, and can still use the 640x480 bitmaps. The only graphics part, that has to be adjusted to 320x400 is the car's interior, which can easily be done by scaling a screenshot of a 640x480***pit to 320x400 and doing some cosmetic changes. (the only prob may be to find a paint programm, that lets you paint in 320x400 mode). You than have to adjust the positions of flashing lights and your needles as well as the font for the speed indicator (and the font for the few characters in full screen mode). That's all concerning the graphics part. You can still use 640x480 for all the menues and the replays, 'cos they don't affect gameplay. All of the above is simple graphics programming basics! So what do you have to change for 320x400: 1. add a commandline switch -m for medium resolution. 2. Switch to 320x400 mode whenever one selects practice, qual, warmup and race. 3. Switch back to 640x480 when one hits escape 4. make all of the changes, i mentioned above to the graphics part 5. play the game An experienced crew of programmers and graphics artists should be able to do the above changes within a couple of days (well, a really experienced crew could do it in less than one day). And i'd say this is inexpensive! : I'll look into a 320x400 mode for future efforts, but frankly, the market don't wait for the future, do it now !!! : is moving ot 640x480x8 bit and beyond... Nascar isn't playable at a decent framerate with full details on the fastest machine on the market theses days (and the latest roumors about the P6 tell me, it won't be playable for another long time), so going to even higher resolutions is totally ridiculous. One last note: Why do you port Nascar to Windows? It makes no sense at all. New menues ? You can do new menues in Dos, too. Standardised graphics drivers? They only eat performance. Selling the same game for a second time? I won't buy it. Or is Microsoft giving you money for doing a special version to make Win 95 more attractive? It's the only reason why i'd do it. In my eyes doing a windows and a dos-version is total bullshit!!! It's throwing out your money throuh the window(s 95 :-)). And it IS EXPENSIVE. So much for now. Keep up the good (= Dos and Mac) work, make your games run smooth on the machines that are available, and don't think about making it run on the Pentium 2000 under Win 2000. Thanx for your interest, Ralf

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>I don't know exactly how your simulation model works, but i assume it's >independent from the resolution until the point of projecting a 3d-like >model to the 2d-screen. You are already scaling the bitmaps to match >the resolution (hey, there is no different artwork (i.e. bitmaps) for the >cars in hires and lowres). That means you have just to adjust your scaling >parameters to match 320x400 instead of 320x200 or 640x480, and can still >use the 640x480 bitmaps. The only graphics part, that has to be adjusted >to 320x400 is the car's interior, which can easily be done by scaling a >screenshot of a 640x480***pit to 320x400 and doing some cosmetic changes. >(the only prob may be to find a paint programm, that lets you paint in >320x400 mode). You than have to adjust the positions of flashing lights >and your needles as well as the font for the speed indicator (and the font >for the few characters in full screen mode). That's all concerning the >graphics part. You can still use 640x480 for all the menues and the replays, >'cos they don't affect gameplay. >All of the above is simple graphics programming basics!

Well... I haven't done any graphics programming on the pc. I know the Amiga can handles resolutions on the fly, but not sure about the PC. Heck, I guess this is off topic, sorry. However, I do agree that 320x400 would be a cool thing "to give a look-see" if I were Papyrus. I can think of a good reason. I bought SoftRam 95 for $29 It compresses my RAM to about 24 megs versus 8. Granted, it's gonna be a little slower in that regard, but I would be able to *hopefully* use that RAM in the simulation, versus go out and spend $400 on 8 more megs. I do have this to say, however. I have seen in the Amiga software market, this tendency to program software "for the lowest common demoninator" In other words, hey let's not make this game unplayable for a 68000 processor or people without hard drives or cd-roms! Geez, go ahead! If it's *that* good I'll have a real reason to get a 68040! At least with NASCAR Racing, I can justify getting a P-100. In fact, it's the *only* reason hehehehe Go #6 Mark Martin and #16 Ted Musgrave - Jack Roush Racing!! NASCAR Racing!! [link lost in import: /~sean/nascar/nascar.html] <--NASCAR Racing Sim page

2. Switch to 320x400 mode whenever one selects practice, qual, warmup and race. 3. Switch back to 640x480 when one hits escape <<< We thought about doing this for ICR II (run the interface always in 640x480 and game play at the user selected level). A lot of people pop in and out of driving, however, while trying to set up their car (garage->drive->garage->drive->etc.), and the constant mode switching is NOT GOOD on at least some video card/monitor combinations. (One of our engineers has a monitor that, when he mode switches, he runs about a 10% chance of having is monitor turn off, since it can't deal with [I'm assuming] the refresh rate change.) We finally decided against it, even though it would've meant less work for us (only one set of interface artwork). And artwork IS NOT EASY. It takes an artist several days to "get it right" per screen. A track shot takes even more time. There are 15 tracks in ICR II, at *three* different resolutions (the track shots on Macintosh/Windows are at 447x330). It is a manpower intensive effort, and frankly adding a 320x400 mode is probably not going to increase our market share significantly enough to justify it. In my eyes doing a windows and a dos-version is total bullshit!!! <<< Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. Rick Genter Technical Lead, IndyCar Racing II/NASCAR Racing for Macintosh/Windows Papyrus Design Group, Inc.

UB->Stan Fox at indy 500 was airborne... How's he doing anyway? absolutely ->amazing recovery. That was from the force in which he struck the wall. And it wasn't nearly as bad (airborne wise, it was a horrific accident) as the NASCAR wrecks. The last I heard he was home getting better. ... Eat healthy, exercise daily, and die young anyway.

: >All of the above is simple graphics programming basics! : Well... I haven't done any graphics programming on the pc. I know the : Amiga can handles resolutions on the fly, but not sure about the PC. : Heck, I guess this is off topic, sorry. I have done graphics programming on a lot of platforms including pc and amiga. It's even easier to introduce a 320x400 mode into nascar than i showed in my previous post. They don't have to redo any artwork at all, just add a some new lines of code. : However, I do agree that 320x400 would be a cool thing "to give a : look-see" if I were Papyrus. Hear it Papyrus !!!! It's not just me!! : >Why do you port Nascar to Windows? It makes no sense at all. : >New menues ? You can do new menues in Dos, too. : >Standardised graphics drivers? They only eat performance. : >Selling the same game for a second time? I won't buy it. : >Or is Microsoft giving you money for doing a special version to make : >Win 95 more attractive? It's the only reason why i'd do it. : I can think of a good reason. I bought SoftRam 95 for $29 : It compresses my RAM to about 24 megs versus 8. Granted, it's gonna : be a little slower in that regard, but I would be able to *hopefully* ^^^^^^^^^^^^^ would slow down nascar (or Indy II) even more... : >So much for now. Keep up the good (= Dos and Mac) work, make your : >games run smooth on the machines that are available, and don't think : >about making it run on the Pentium 2000 under Win 2000. : I do have this to say, however. I have seen in the Amiga software : market, this tendency to program software "for the lowest common : demoninator" In other words, hey let's not make this game unplayable : for a 68000 processor or people without hard drives or cd-roms! Geez, : go ahead! If it's *that* good I'll have a real reason to get a 68040! I won't buy a Pentium 120 just for Nascar or Indycar.. : At least with NASCAR Racing, I can justify getting a P-100. In fact, : it's the *only* reason hehehehe ^^^^^^^^^^^^ that's the point Ralf

: >>> : 2. Switch to 320x400 mode whenever one selects practice, qual, warmup : and race. : 3. Switch back to 640x480 when one hits escape : <<< : We thought about doing this for ICR II (run the interface always in : 640x480 and game play at the user selected level). A lot of people pop in : and out of driving, however, while trying to set up their car : (garage->drive->garage->drive->etc.), and the constant mode switching is : NOT GOOD on at least some video card/monitor combinations. (One of our : engineers has a monitor that, when he mode switches, he runs about a 10% : chance of having is monitor turn off, since it can't deal with [I'm : assuming] the refresh rate change.) We finally decided against it, even : though it would've meant less work for us (only one set of interface : artwork). As is told you in an email, you can do menues and the like in 320x200, game in 320x400, no modeswitching needed that affects your monitor. Or even do the menues in 320x400 with a 320x200 look. : And artwork IS NOT EASY. It takes an artist several days to "get it right" : per screen. A track shot takes even more time. There are 15 tracks in ICR : II, at *three* different resolutions (the track shots on Macintosh/Windows : are at 447x330). It is a manpower intensive effort, and frankly adding a You don't need to do all the bitmaps in three different resolutions. Just scale them down from you highest resolution as you already do with the car textures in Nascar (or does anyone have two paintkits, one for 320x200 and one for 640x480 cars ?). BTW i scaled down screenshots of 640x480 nascar to 320x200 and didn't see a noticible difference between the scaled pic and the real 320x200 pic as far as out-of-the-window graphics. And with a moving image the difference would vanish almost completely. : 320x400 mode is probably not going to increase our market share : significantly enough to justify it. You don't need to redo any artwork. See my email again. I know a lot of people, who played the demo and found the graphics to be too ugly. When they heard they can't do fully detailed SVGA even on a Pentium they decided not to buy the game. So your sales figures may even go up. : >>> : In my eyes doing a windows and a dos-version is total bullshit!!! : <<< : Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. Everyone interested in Indy II will buy it as a dos-version, if there is not special windows version. According to Microsoft all dos games should run under win 95. If not take back your Win 95 copy for refund. So it's double work for the same game. You complain about the manpower a 320x400 mode would take ? You have some questionable business policy. Better make one quality product instead of two lower quality products for the same machine. Ralf

: >>> : Summary: introducing a 320x400 mode in Nascar (and Indy II) would be a : great : (and inexpensive) improvement !!!!! : <<< : Perhaps great, not inexpensive. On DOS we would have to have 320x400 : artwork to go with 320x400 game play. It takes a lot of manpower to do the : artwork. not true, see my email. : I'll look into a 320x400 mode for future efforts, but frankly, the market do it now!! : is moving ot 640x480x8 bit and beyond... beyond ? That means playable not before the year 2000. :-( Better make your games playable now!! Ralf

You don't need to do all the bitmaps in three different resolutions. Just scale them down from you highest resolution as you already do with the car textures in Nascar (or does anyone have two paintkits, one for 320x200 and one for 640x480 cars ?) <<< The aspect ratios of the three resolutions are different. Just scaling introduces artifacts. In fact, what the artists do is start with the 64x480 artwork, scale it down, then spend hours and hours "touch it up". If you don't touch it up, it doesn't look half as good. Trust me; been there, done that. Rick Genter Technical Lead, IndyCar Racing II/NASCAR Racing for Macintosh/Windows Papyrus Design Group, Inc.

: >So much for now. Keep up the good (= Dos and Mac) work, make your : >games run smooth on the machines that are available, and don't think : >about making it run on the Pentium 2000 under Win 2000. : I do have this to say, however. I have seen in the Amiga software : market, this tendency to program software "for the lowest common : demoninator" In other words, hey let's not make this game unplayable : for a 68000 processor or people without hard drives or cd-roms! Geez, : go ahead! If it's *that* good I'll have a real reason to get a 68040! : At least with NASCAR Racing, I can justify getting a P-100. In fact, : it's the *only* reason hehehehe If Papyrus were shipping a Pentium with it's game, i'd stop complaining about the missing 320x400 mode... As for me, i simply can't afford one. Ralf

Not surprising. They're both 8-bit kissing cousins. Anyone know of frame rates for NT? bryon -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- - Perhaps it is best to be absolute by always saying never again? Bryon S. Lape

says... Gee, for once I agree with Ralf. 320x200 offers pretty good graphics if one uses 256 colors and good anti-aliasing. But let's not forget, the VGA specification goes up to 640x450x16 only. Beyond that is SVGA and there are several "standards". Once there is a good standard for say, 1280x1024x256 with a 64-bit CPU, graphics card and OS, then we will have to wait. bryon -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- - Perhaps it is best to be absolute by always saying never again? Bryon S. Lape