Golf beats out PPG Portland

I like golf, but ESPN is really pissing me off today. I am NOT in a good mood. Why? Because I am missing all the fun pre-race activities in Portland due to ESPN's coverage of some old fart golf tournament. If it was the world class golfers I could almost understand, but these guys are has beens. I am even more pissed to know that when the race is over, they will immediately cut back to the tournament, no post race fun either, or so they say. This was the clincher that made me lose respect for ESPN's coverage of IndyCar. I'll take ABC anytime. Ralf

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>I like golf, but ESPN is really pissing me off today. I am NOT in a >good mood. Why? Because I am missing all the fun pre-race activities >in Portland due to ESPN's coverage of some old fart golf tournament. >If it was the world class golfers I could almost understand, but these >guys are has beens. I am even more pissed to know that when the race >is over, they will immediately cut back to the tournament, no post race >fun either, or so they say.

You said (predicted) it !!! What really got me mad was the sudden cut to commercial 2 seconds after Andretti punted Vasser for 4 th place... Girrrrr >-( Andretti was his total unprofessional self today... Why can't CART do anything about this ? Damn, the guy is a menace to all. Melih

Not to mention the abrupt cut to a commercial immediately after Andretti bumped into Johannsen (sp?). I don't expect these kinds of shenanigans from ESPN normally. -- ************************************************************** "If people don't want to come out to the ballpark, nobody's going to stop them." - Yogi Berra **************************************************************

First of all, that wasn't Vasser, it was Johanssen/Johannsen (how in the hell do you spell this guy's name, anyway?). Secondly, after watching the in-car shot of Andretti bopping him, I don't see how he could have avoided it. Stefan slowed down VERY suddenly. Regarding his antics in the chicane, that might be a different story. Calling him a menace to all is a little far-fetched I think. -- ************************************************************** "If people don't want to come out to the ballpark, nobody's going to stop them." - Yogi Berra **************************************************************

-=> Quoting Melih Ucar to All <=- >I like golf, but ESPN is really pissing me off today. I am NOT in a >good mood. Why? Because I am missing all the fun pre-race activities >in Portland due to ESPN's coverage of some old fart golf tournament. Would you understand if I told you that that "old farts" tournament was a Senior PGA Tour event? I doubt it. Ok, how about if I told you that Men's Golf is, on a percentage basis, the highest profit televised sport in the country? Viewership for golf outstrips auto racing by a mile. Haven't you ever noticed that the big networks only televise the really big auto racing events but televise golf EVERY WEEK? Now do you understand? BTW, I happen to agree with you that missing the pre/post race activities s&(%#! But, to tell the *** truth: money talks. ... "You can't always get what you want" Rolling Stones ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12

: I like golf, but ESPN is really pissing me off today. I am NOT in a : good mood. Why? Because I am missing all the fun pre-race activities : in Portland due to ESPN's coverage of some old fart golf tournament. : If it was the world class golfers I could almost understand, but these : guys are has beens. I am even more pissed to know that when the race : is over, they will immediately cut back to the tournament, no post race : fun either, or so they say. : This was the clincher that made me lose respect for ESPN's coverage of : IndyCar. I'll take ABC anytime. : Ralf Ralf, I'll take a stab and suggest that the Senior PGA Tour Fans were also pretty upset. At least we got to see our whole event. As for ESPN, ABC has done the same thing in the past and even joined races 'in progress'. I too was disappointed, but probably far less than the Golf fans. Take what you can get and count those blessings. ;) eryc

>First of all, that wasn't Vasser, it was Johanssen/Johannsen (how in the >hell do you spell this guy's name, anyway?). Secondly, after watching the >in-car shot of Andretti bopping him, I don't see how he could have avoided >it. Stefan slowed down VERY suddenly.] I agree, Stefan slowed quickly and unexpectedly. Not Michael's fault. Not far-fetched. Why is it he always seems to attract wrecks whether he's at fault or not? Tracy grew out of that stage, Is the Michael's job now? To err for the both of them? Ralf

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>Subject: Re: Golf beats out PPG Portland >Date: 26 Jun 1995 00:50:06 GMT >: I like golf, but ESPN is really pissing me off today. I am NOT in a >: good mood. Why? Because I am missing all the fun pre-race activities >: in Portland due to ESPN's coverage of some old fart golf tournament. >: If it was the world class golfers I could almost understand, but these >: guys are has beens. I am even more pissed to know that when the race >: is over, they will immediately cut back to the tournament, no post race >: fun either, or so they say. >: This was the clincher that made me lose respect for ESPN's coverage of >: IndyCar. I'll take ABC anytime. >: Ralf >Ralf, > I'll take a stab and suggest that the Senior PGA Tour Fans were >also pretty upset. At least we got to see our whole event. As for ESPN, >ABC has done the same thing in the past and even joined races 'in progress'. >I too was disappointed, but probably far less than the Golf fans. Take what >you can get and count those blessings. ;)

However, The Senior PGA Tour Fans were PREPARED to have to wait out the run of the Portland race, for the television programming schedule called for ESPN to cut away to Portland ON THE HOUR, not at 17 minutes after and return on the half hour, not 21 minutes after. As much time as there is between greens, it's a lot easier to catch up with the important shots than it is to go back and explain that the winner of the Portland race was disqualified, which happened immediately after the race, upon inspection, BBEFORE the half hour point came around. Now THAT would have been news. Ralf

I understand from someone who was there and loosely associated with Alumax that Johannson ran out of fuel - so I don't think Michael can be blamed for that incident - however, Michael DID get into a few other situations that he shouldn't have been in earlier in the race. Deb

: >Subject: Re: Golf beats out PPG Portland : >Date: 26 Jun 1995 00:50:06 GMT : >: I like golf, but ESPN is really pissing me off today. I am NOT in a : >: good mood. Why? Because I am missing all the fun pre-race activities : >: in Portland due to ESPN's coverage of some old fart golf tournament. : >: If it was the world class golfers I could almost understand, but these : >: guys are has beens. I am even more pissed to know that when the race : >: is over, they will immediately cut back to the tournament, no post race : >: fun either, or so they say. : >: This was the clincher that made me lose respect for ESPN's coverage of : >: IndyCar. I'll take ABC anytime. : >: Ralf : >Ralf, : > I'll take a stab and suggest that the Senior PGA Tour Fans were : >also pretty upset. At least we got to see our whole event. As for ESPN, : >ABC has done the same thing in the past and even joined races 'in progress'. : >I too was disappointed, but probably far less than the Golf fans. Take what : >you can get and count those blessings. ;) : However, The Senior PGA Tour Fans were PREPARED to have to wait out the run of : the Portland race, for the television programming schedule called for ESPN to : cut away to Portland ON THE HOUR, not at 17 minutes after and return on the : half hour, not 21 minutes after. : As much time as there is between greens, it's a lot easier to catch up with : the important shots than it is to go back and explain that the winner of the : Portland race was disqualified, which happened immediately after the race, : upon inspection, BBEFORE the half hour point came around. Now THAT would have : been news. : Ralf Ahh, Ralf... The start of the Golf was delayed by rain. Had the old folks made the tee as scheduled, the final twosome would have finished shortly before the scheduled start of the race. Guess you were too busy cursing ESPN to hear that part. :) Agreed regarding the end of the race. eryc

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>Subject: Re: Golf beats out PPG Po >Date: Sun, 25 Jun 1995 21:09:00 -0500 > -=> Quoting Melih Ucar to All <=- > >I like golf, but ESPN is really pissing me off today. I am NOT in a > >good mood. Why? Because I am missing all the fun pre-race activities > >in Portland due to ESPN's coverage of some old fart golf tournament. > Would you understand if I told you that that "old farts" tournament was > a Senior PGA Tour event? I doubt it. Ok, how about if I told you that Men's > Golf is, on a percentage basis, the highest profit televised sport in the > country? Viewership for golf outstrips auto racing by a mile. Haven't you > ever noticed that the big networks only televise the really big auto racing > events but televise golf EVERY WEEK? Now do you understand? BTW, I happen to > agree with you that missing the pre/post race activities s&(%#! But, to tell > the *** truth: money talks.

You DOUBT it? A lot you know. I play golf, I watch golf, I enjoy golf. I'm a Norman fan and I can't stand Kite. I was "somewhat" enjoying the "old farts" tournament too, but when it came 4:00pm ET, it was time for IndyCar, but it didn't come. ... "But if you try real hard, you'll get what you need." - Glimmer Twins Ralf

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>>You said (predicted) it !!! What really got me mad was the sudden cut to >>commercial 2 seconds after Andretti punted Vasser for 4 th place... >>Andretti was his total unprofessional self today... Why can't CART do >>anything about this ? Damn, the guy is a menace to all. >First of all, that wasn't Vasser, it was Johanssen/Johannsen (how in the >hell do you spell this guy's name, anyway?).

Ooppss, I am sorry for that one, I gues I was still steaming angry 2 mins after the race and did not pay aattention. As it turns out he runs out of fuel in the corner, of course we did not know this because of the "excellent" post race coverage of ESPN. Well, let's see, why do we usually talk about "Oh, that Michael !! He did it again, he drove into/bumped/locked wheels/pushed his car too much..." (O.K. Tracy once in a while, I'll accept that :-) He has built himself a bad name by doing all this stuff, sometimes it might be the real racing incident that is unavoidable, but sometimes he seems to be trying to pass at any corner, at any time he wishes without fully realizing what would happen to his car and other the other driver. This impatience and getting involved in an incident a lot of the time gets everbody talking and bashing him. As an example look at how Little Al waited patiently to pass Villeneuve, set him up expertly and passed just like a champion. Well, you might say Michael is also a champion but he sure does not treat other drivers like a one on the track. That's why I see him as a menace (if you want a softer expression call him a danger) to other drivers. Sure, today I don't like Andretti (no kiddin), but that does not mean I won't forever. I'm waiting to see a class act from him that's all. Melih.

I think the ESPN should have skipped covering the race and let another network take care of it. ESPN tried to squeeze too much into the day. They cover the golf every weekend so why don't they just stay covering it. I am tired of the ads that keep getting stuffed in as often as possible. They were going to an ad after 3 laps and that was after all the racing fans had already waited for 20 minutes while ESPN decided to keep the ever boring golf on. They they go to adds while everyone was pitting (when Danny Sullivan had the fire), that whole sequence of pitting was missed, other than the replays. They get the ads in again with only 4 laps to go, and of course as Stefan is meeting the wall, the adds are back again. I think that if ESPN was so bent on being with the golf, which they continually updated and plugged during the race, then maybe they should have let ABC have the feed. I mean, one after race interview, with the soon to be disqualified winner of the race, what happened to the rest of the field. ESPN should stay with golf and extreme games and leave racing to a real network. -- Paul East Computer Science Major North Carolina State University IZCC #288

{Much Snipped] Just to let you know: The disqualification was NOT announced until almost three HOURS after the race was over. * * * * * * * * * * * To join The Scott Pruett Fan Club * Jim DeFord * FAX: (916) 771-0170 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * PO BOX 7243 * Rootin' For Pruett in '95 * Citrus Heights, CA 95621 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

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>: I like golf, but ESPN is really pissing me off today. I am NOT in a >: good mood. Why? Because I am missing all the fun pre-race activities >: in Portland due to ESPN's coverage of some old fart golf tournament. >: If it was the world class golfers I could almost understand, but these >: guys are has beens. I am even more pissed to know that when the race >: is over, they will immediately cut back to the tournament, no post race >: fun either, or so they say. > I'll take a stab and suggest that the Senior PGA Tour Fans were >also pretty upset. At least we got to see our whole event. As for ESPN, >ABC has done the same thing in the past and even joined races 'in progress'. >I too was disappointed, but probably far less than the Golf fans. Take what >you can get and count those blessings. ;)

So how long should racing fans, specifically Indycar fans "take what we can get?" And believe me, I do know how much racing coverage has improved over the years, and I have been "putting" up with being a second-class sports fan long enough! I watched the broadcast after I got home from the race and was disappointed, but at least I found out WHY the race was delayed. The start time for the race was 1:00pm, and they started their engines at 1:15!!! The fans at the TRACK were also getting restless, so it wasn't just the TV viewers that got delayed. * * * * * * * * * * * To join The Scott Pruett Fan Club * Jim DeFord * FAX: (916) 771-0170 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * PO BOX 7243 * Rootin' For Pruett in '95 * Citrus Heights, CA 95621 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

: Not to mention the abrupt cut to a commercial immediately after Andretti : bumped into Johannsen (sp?). I don't expect these kinds of shenanigans from : ESPN normally. You mean that was ESPN breaking to commercial. In Canada they showed the ESPN coverage too but I thought it was TSN going to commercial that cut off the end of the race. -- CanucksGrizzliesLionsVooDooCanadiansCanucksGrizzliesLionsVooDooCanadiansCanu ucksGrizzliesLionsVooDooCanadiansCanucksGrizzliesLionsVooDooCanadiansCanucks

says... [ and other blah ] All I know is that if ESPN was to carry a NASCAR race at 16.00, it would have started at 16.00 with very few golf during commercials. bryon -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- - A hot coal removed from the fire is no longer thus. Bryon S. Lape

[snip] [snip] Since the cut was to a "local" commerical, I had thought that it had happened only here in San Diego. "Relieved" to know that we were not the only ones to get "hit". :-) Doug ...

: : So how long should racing fans, specifically Indycar fans "take what we can : : get?" And believe me, I do know how much racing coverage has improved over : : the years, and I have been "putting" up with being a second-class sports fan : : long enough! : Sheesh! ESPN dumped a high-profit margin Golf match to cover, in its : commercialized totallity an unfortunately lower-profit INDY car race. : It seems to me as if ESPN "is" making an effort to bump auto racing into : the realm of "first-class" sports in the States. Compare ESPN to TV : Esp who broadcast the Spanish Grand Prix in Negative color. The Yellow : Ferraris were alright for a minute...but. Otherwise, if you can't wait : for Motor-racing to become as big as the NBA...move to Brazil, I here they : really go for it down there. :) Do you really believe what you have written here? If ESPN is doing this for charity then you are terribly mistaken. No, this is a case of poor coverage pure and simple. Even if CART only bought a block of time for the race, that doesn't excuse the fact that it didn't start on time. There is no reason why ESPN cannot broadcast this race in it's entirety. If ESPN wants to show golf, then fine. But if they want to continue to bring motorsports to the fans, then they better shape up quick. I don't care if CART only buys 2 hours of time. ESPN should have at least taken the time to put together a good show. The damn race might as well have been done by a cable access channel. Jay -- +-------------------------------------------------------------+ +-------------------------------------------------------------+ |...........The Racer Archive -- WWW Racing Service...........| +-------------------------------------------------------------+ |<http://www.eng.hawaii.edu/Contribs/carina/ra.home.page.html>| +-------------------------------------------------------------+

: Do you really believe what you have written here? If ESPN is doing : this for charity then you are terribly mistaken. No, this is a case : of poor coverage pure and simple. Even if CART only bought a block : of time for the race, that doesn't excuse the fact that it didn't : start on time. There is no reason why ESPN cannot broadcast this : race in it's entirety. If ESPN wants to show golf, then fine. But if : they want to continue to bring motorsports to the fans, then they : better shape up quick. I don't care if CART only buys 2 hours of : time. ESPN should have at least taken the time to put together a : good show. The damn race might as well have been done by a cable : access channel. The way I understand television coverage is that the ESPN pays INDYcar for the rights to cover and then sells commercials. Just like every other sport is covered. "There is no reason why ESPN cannot broadcasr this race in its entirety." ...I saw the green and the checker... Seems like a lot of people sure like to gripe about the coverage rather than discuss a relatively good race. Christian is going to be great someday. As for ESPN, I understand it is not charity, I would call it an investment. ESPN and NBA. For the future it is wise to push motor-racing which they carry on an almost weekly basis. Witness WC which has become a major thanks in part to ESPN. eryc

: So how long should racing fans, specifically Indycar fans "take what we can : get?" And believe me, I do know how much racing coverage has improved over : the years, and I have been "putting" up with being a second-class sports fan : long enough! Sheesh! ESPN dumped a high-profit margin Golf match to cover, in its commercialized totallity an unfortunately lower-profit INDY car race. It seems to me as if ESPN "is" making an effort to bump auto racing into the realm of "first-class" sports in the States. Compare ESPN to TV Esp who broadcast the Spanish Grand Prix in Negative color. The Yellow Ferraris were alright for a minute...but. Otherwise, if you can't wait for Motor-racing to become as big as the NBA...move to Brazil, I here they really go for it down there. :) eryc

>Ahh, Ralf... The start of the Golf was delayed by rain. Had the old folks >made the tee as scheduled, the final twosome would have finished shortly >before the scheduled start of the race. Guess you were too busy cursing >ESPN to hear that part. :) Nope, I heard that part. That didn't matter. They screwed the race broadcast all around.

Uhh...guys, this is R.A.SIMULATORS - could we maybe keep this in R.A.S.I. where it belongs. I'm saddled with a slow connection and this stuff doesn't help. Can we stop the cross-postings, please? : > : >: I like golf, but ESPN is really pissing me off today. I am NOT in a : >: good mood. Why? Because I am missing all the fun pre-race activities : >: in Portland due to ESPN's coverage of some old fart golf tournament. : >: If it was the world class golfers I could almost understand, but these : >: guys are has beens. I am even more pissed to know that when the race : >: is over, they will immediately cut back to the tournament, no post race : >: fun either, or so they say. : > : > I'll take a stab and suggest that the Senior PGA Tour Fans were : >also pretty upset. At least we got to see our whole event. As for ESPN, : >ABC has done the same thing in the past and even joined races 'in progress'. : >I too was disappointed, but probably far less than the Golf fans. Take what : >you can get and count those blessings. ;) : So how long should racing fans, specifically Indycar fans "take what we can : get?" And believe me, I do know how much racing coverage has improved over : the years, and I have been "putting" up with being a second-class sports fan : long enough! : I watched the broadcast after I got home from the race and was disappointed, : but at least I found out WHY the race was delayed. The start time for the : race was 1:00pm, and they started their engines at 1:15!!! The fans at the : TRACK were also getting restless, so it wasn't just the TV viewers that got : delayed. : * * * * * * * * * * * To join The Scott Pruett Fan Club : * Jim DeFord * FAX: (916) 771-0170 : * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * PO BOX 7243 : * Rootin' For Pruett in '95 * Citrus Heights, CA 95621 : * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * --

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>Subject: Re: Golf beats out PPG Po >Date: 26 Jun 1995 16:03:15 GMT >says... >> -=> Quoting Melih Ucar to All <=- >> >I like golf, but ESPN is really pissing me off today. I am NOT in a >> >good mood. Why? Because I am missing all the fun pre-race activities >> >in Portland due to ESPN's coverage of some old fart golf tournament. >> Would you understand if I told you that that "old farts" tournament >> was a Senior PGA Tour event? >[ and other blah ] > All I know is that if ESPN was to carry a NASCAR race at 16.00, >it would have started at 16.00 with very few golf during commercials.

Ain't that the truth, IndyCar just don't get no respect! (multiple negatives intended). Ralf

: The way I understand television coverage is that the ESPN pays INDYcar : for the rights to cover and then sells commercials. Just like every other : sport is covered. "There is no reason why ESPN cannot broadcasr this : race in its entirety." ...I saw the green and the checker... Seems like : a lot of people sure like to gripe about the coverage rather than discuss : a relatively good race. Christian is going to be great someday. As for : ESPN, I understand it is not charity, I would call it an investment. ESPN : and NBA. For the future it is wise to push motor-racing which they carry : on an almost weekly basis. Witness WC which has become a major thanks in : part to ESPN. I don't think this is correct. CART buys chunks of time for a race broadcast. This is why sometimes race coverage is cut short by ABC. CART estimates the length of a race and buys the proper time. The number of yellow flags can obviously***things up. If it were the case that ESPN and ABC bid for the rights to cover the race, then commercials and the like would not be a problem and should not delay the start of a race and limit the coverage to the point that we witness the cars on the parade lap and cut to commercial when barely 1/4th of the field has finished the race. Jay -- +-------------------------------------------------------------+ +-------------------------------------------------------------+ |...........The Racer Archive -- WWW Racing Service...........| +-------------------------------------------------------------+ |<[link lost in import: /;|] +-------------------------------------------------------------+

Is ABC really that much of an advantage? I can't speak for the rest of the US but a lot of desperate local affiliates are showing infomercial-***instead of racing on Sunday afternoons. ESPN is the only REAL hope. As far as US only drivers, that'll lose a LOT of the real fans...I don't give a rat's ass about the 'Fastest American' when (hopefully) a driver with the sheer brilliance of Ayrton Senna or Alain Prost is blowing paint of curbs. I'd be willing to bet that is a common thought among real fans (Usenet readers, for instance). It might indeed help ratings, but the quality will suffer. Does this mean I need to put up with gap-toothed 50-year old women swapping skin-tight (yeech!) Dale Earnhardt pants for Al Unser halter tops? Maybe NASCAR should start selling formula-approved dental plans, and tractor tyres to paint white so you can grow flowers in them..sorry, couldn't resist. I guess the point is that NASCAR is way overmarketed. Jeff

|> I don't think this is correct. CART buys chunks of time for a race |> broadcast. This is why sometimes race coverage is cut short by ABC. This is the way it was LAST year, and for a number of years preceding that. However, this year, ESPN did indeed pay for the rights to broadcast CART events. They in turn buy the time from ABC for a majority of the events. It is ESPN that produces all the CART races no matter what network they are on. Another words, they stand to make or lose money depending on how well they sell advertising space. ESPN feels they can make more money having races on ABC even though they pay ABC for the time then on their own network. This is why the majority of the races are on ABC. All of these details were announced over the winter when the new tv contracts were signed. Last year, it was CART that stood to make or lose money since they bought the time on the various networks. Also, it is OCC that actually puts the shows together. This of course is owned by Jim Ohlmeyer, who now works as an executive for NBC. -- Russell Jaslow | "A racecar is like a ***: expensive, |My employer Rochester, NY | demanding, and looked upon by the wife |has nothing Spec Racer #33 | with great suspicion." |to do with Finger Lakes Reg.| The NY Rangers own the Stanley Cup -- FINALLY! |my drivel.

having races on ABC versus ESPN is a _huge_ advantage because only about 70% of US households have cable. interesting how you equate "usenet readers" with "real fans" ... your tacit acknowledgement that an all-oval schedule could increase TV ratings belies the fact that the many folks on this 'net who prefer road to oval racing aren't typical of US race fans... and as for your suggestion that IRL with have only American drivers, this is a false rumor promoted by CART stalwarts - it would be illegal and unethical, to say the least. IRL is actively courting all Indy teams and will have many foreign drivers (see the article on Indy car politics in the June 3 Economist on this point) well, you had your facts wrong on non-US drivers in IRL, but thought that you'd at least manage to avoid stupid snobbery... but, like many folks here, you can only resort to bigotry toward NASCAR fans when attempting to excuse CART's popularity problems. read up on the demographics of racing fans, and you'll find that the income difference, for example, between CART and NASCAR fans is minimal. maybe you can borrow some money from those women, eh?

No, just juiced numbers from NSSN. My understanding is that ratings points are relative to the number of households with that network available. The example I saw in On Track said, for instance, that a ratings point on network TV reaches about 30% more people than a ratings point on ESPN. The difference is probably even greater for TNN. That means that because of it's network exposure, IndyCar's Detriot race reached almost as many people as the NASCAR race on TNN. I don't doubt for a second that NASCAR will bring in more households in an apples to apples comparison, but open wheel racing will never have as wide an interest as stock car racing. Trying to compete head to head for oval racing fans against NASCAR will not help open wheel racing in the US. What little difference has shown up in CART's ratings on ovals will be more than offset by the loss of all the fans who like the current mixture, the lack of name drivers and teams (when you don't have to put "hopefully" in front of them you can claim them as an asset), and the lack of continuity in the IRL schedule. Why a lower average? IndyCar will have just as many ovals next year as this year. "Hopefully" "could" "maybe" "if." We'll see. Yeah, Tony is going to learn a thing or two about marketing from NASCAR when he tries to go head to head with them. :> -- N. Richard Caldwell

Indy car fans will have second-class treatment in Tv scheduling as long as Indy cars have second-class TV ratings... for example, IC in Detroit had a 2.8 rating (% of US households that watched) while NASCAR recently drew a 4.2 rating for a race on a smaller network, TNN. (Neilson's TV ratings as reported Nat'l Speed Sport the last few weeks, not juiced attendance figures from a PR office) (the Indy 500 drew 8+ % of US HHs...) IMHO, CARTs current direction of more road racing (which, despite the preferences of many of the folks on this net, has never been as popular as oval racing in the US.. look at F1) and fewer US drivers aren't going to pull their US TV ratings higher. US TV ratings are CARTs real vulnerability vs. IRL. The IRL will have: 1) all oval races, a plus in US TV ratings (eg., CART has higher ratings on ovals), 2) hopefully, some well-known grass roots US drivers, again a plus in US TV ratings, and 3) all-ABC coverage, a big advantage in US ratings again. CART will have many of the most-familiar teams and drivers, but even with these, their 2.5-3.5 nielson ratings - with a lower average without NHIS and Pheonix, could be eclipsed by IRL with all-ovals, a big network, some familiar added drivers, and better promotion (eg, walt Disney knows a little about the TV and entertainment biz, and TG has learned a lot about marketing from NASCAR which is a much better marketer than CART) Let the TV ratings war begin!

<<snip>> <<snip>> What principle(s) has NASCAR sacrificed for money and ratings?? It seems to me that they've made some rule changes in the interest of closer competition, but so has IndyCar/CART and F1. It seems to me that NASCARs success is a result of better marketing, and more competetive racing. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jim Ziemer, Jr. HAMILTON <HH> HALLMARK Voice: (414) 780-7209 Field Applications Eng. 2440 S. 179th Street (800) 369-0391 The Rusty Wallace Miller Genuine Draft Thunderbird !! AWESOME when opened up !! ----------------------------------------------------------------------------

: CART will have many of the most-familiar teams and drivers, but even with : these, their 2.5-3.5 nielson ratings - with a lower average without NHIS : and Pheonix, could be eclipsed by IRL with all-ovals, a big network, some : familiar added drivers, and better promotion (eg, walt Disney knows a : little about the TV and entertainment biz, and TG has learned a lot about : marketing from NASCAR which is a much better marketer than CART) : Let the TV ratings war begin! You're trying to sell a product based on TV ratings? If that were the case, then that must mean F1 is junk. Hardly. Just because the entire US population isn't clued into it doesn't meant it stinks. You may think oval racing is the key ingredient to having big ratings, but that isn't the case. It has to do with the type of racing and the organization behind it. I'll admit that NASCAR has the edge here because they are willing to sacrifice principle for money and ratings. I hope that series like F1 and CART IndyCars survive because the day that they start to alter the rules for the sake of the television set is the day that I stop watching it. Jay -- +-------------------------------------------------------------+ +-------------------------------------------------------------+ |...........The Racer Archive -- WWW Racing Service...........| +-------------------------------------------------------------+ |<http://www.eng.hawaii.edu/Contribs/carina/ra.home.page.html>| +-------------------------------------------------------------+

> You're trying to sell a product based on TV ratings? If that were > the case, then that must mean F1 is junk. Hardly. Just because the > entire US population isn't clued into it doesn't meant it stinks. No, F1 isn't junk. The politics of F1 Racing and the fact that the teams with the most money win costs a lot of American viewership along with the fact that there aren't (many) Americans in the race and there aren't any American race sites. Me, I don't care for the arbitrary rulings of F1, the politics of F1 and the attitude of the governing body: whatever we do, we can't let our 'stars' defect to that barbaric PPG series!. I don't think it's a matter of selling principles, rather it's a series for the drivers, owners, and FANS. This latter part is a key ingredient to the survival of the sport and NASCAR pays homage to the idea of not being able to survive without fans. Jay, the problem is you can't get everyone who is interested to all the races. Can't be done. The largest facility isn't large enough for all interested, and even if it was, a large percentage couldn't afford to go. That means that they have to use TV to get to all of them. As to altering the rules for TV, that just might be necessary for the series to survive, and they alter the rules for everything else anyway...

: What principle(s) has NASCAR sacrificed for money and ratings?? It seems to : me that they've made some rule changes in the interest of closer competition, : but so has IndyCar/CART and F1. It seems to me that NASCARs success is a : result of better marketing, and more competetive racing. Well, closer competition has a different definition in IndyCar, F1, and NASCAR. In F1, the competition is between constructors. In IndyCars, the competition is between a combination of chassis, engines, and tires. NASCAR is an outright competition between drivers. I firmly believe that F1 has the right formula. IMHO, I don't think artificial tinkering with the rules for the sake of parity is good. I applaud NASCAR and it's efforts to keep the championship close, but let's face it. NASCAR is having to save Ford and Pontiac from Chevy. You won't see that in the other series. IndyCar, though, has the bad habit of having a hand in the outcome of the races (read yellows). I know it is a necessary evil, but I hate it just the same. I think a race should be run flag to flag with no interruptions and if the problem is with the circuits, then they should find others that make this less of a problem. Okay, so I am very partial to road courses. But I think everyone who saw Portland will agree that it was one of the better races this year simply because they yellows were few and there was a lot of room for passing. NASCAR is about fans and that's the way it was created. I applaud that. But what F1 and IndyCar racing should stick to is pure and simple team concept racing. I think drivers are important, but the cars are just as important to me and I don't see any difference between Jeff Gordon's Monte Carlo and Dale Earnhardt's Monte Carlo. What makes it different from Barber racers and similar chassis specific racing? I know I am still going to get flamed for this, but this is the best that I can do to explain my position. Sorry for any bad feelings, but I don't like it when the sanctioning body has to change rules to bridge the gap between inferior designs. You have to live and learn. No one was complaining about Penske last year. Everyone agreed that they did their homework and deserved to clean house. Jay -- +-------------------------------------------------------------+ +-------------------------------------------------------------+ |...........The Racer Archive -- WWW Racing Service...........| +-------------------------------------------------------------+ |<http://www.eng.hawaii.edu/Contribs/carina/ra.home.page.html>| +-------------------------------------------------------------+

: I don't think it's a matter of selling principles, rather it's a series : for the drivers, owners, and FANS. This latter part is a key ingredient : to the survival of the sport and NASCAR pays homage to the idea of not : being able to survive without fans. So when a manufacturer gets something right and starts running away from the competition, the ruling body effectively rewrites the rules so that parity is restored. How lame. I am sure that if Benetton were penalized for being too fast, the fans would really appreciate that one. Sure, I realize that NASCAR is something different, but lame is lame. : Jay, the problem is you can't get everyone who is interested to all the : races. Can't be done. The largest facility isn't large enough for all : interested, and even if it was, a large percentage couldn't afford to : go. That means that they have to use TV to get to all of them. As to : altering the rules for TV, that just might be necessary for the series to : survive, and they alter the rules for everything else anyway... It was never my intention to get everyone into the whole thing. The original argument was about ovals vs. road courses. I was trying to say that the race courses have nothing to do with the popularity of the sport. Then I commented that I thought NASCAR, in it's effort to promote parity, sacrificed certain racing principles. The biggest sacrifice is the cars. NASCAR is a spec series despite the fact that Ford, Chevy, and Pontiac are there. The sanctioning body has effectively shown that any significant gain in performance by any party, even within the rules, is eliminated for the sake of parity. Now if this is done for the sake of the show, fine. But the extent that they call NASCAR a series for US manufacturers is a bit of a joke. These are not even close to being stock sedans. It's just the shape were are dealing with here. Stick a GTP body on it and lo and behold it looks like a Le Mans entry. I have nothing against the series and I couldn't care less why fans seem to like it so much. But when people like Robert J. Kent extoll the virtues of NASCAR as a comparison to IndyCars, the argument gets real lame. If the debate concerns the racing, fine. But this debate is clearly getting to be more and more about the philosophy behind racing. Is it about the fans? The drivers? The manufacturers? Different series have different answers to that question. I'm merely defending the notion that a series dedicated to design and manufacturing excellance is just as good, if not better, than one devoted to corporate sponsorship and the customers (read racing fans) that they are trying to solicite. I personally have a problem with the latter. Jay -- +-------------------------------------------------------------+ +-------------------------------------------------------------+ |...........The Racer Archive -- WWW Racing Service...........| +-------------------------------------------------------------+ |<http://www.eng.hawaii.edu/Contribs/carina/ra.home.page.html>| +-------------------------------------------------------------+