(Fwd) F1GPv2 and Grand Prix Manager

Hi folks. I mailed MPS UK about WC2 and friends. I wanted to know principally if there would be any proper networking in GP2. Here's the response: ------- Forwarded Message Follows ------- Date: 13 Jun 95 06:34:08 EDT Subject: F1GPv2 and Grand Prix Manager [...] Grand Prix II will NOT be networkable as it is not possible to maintain real-time communications between computers on a network. Data must be sent in packets which would slow the computers down. It will maintain the direct link and modem link functions of the original game. At this time we have no information on Virtual Karts, other than that in the press release. Regards, Mark Rich/MicroProse-Europe --- end of forwarded message --- If you think the lack of network play sucks, and the explanation is flimsy in the extreme, send mail to MPS UK at the address in the message above. Mark also says the games are due for release at the end of the year, and no demo will be available for quite some time. -- Dave "Gizmo" Gymer Telephone +44 (0)1268 534228 -- General DataComm Advanced Research Centre Ltd, Basildon, UK -- Team Shark-Porsche online racing LFRS 95-96 co-director

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>>------- Forwarded Message Follows ------- >>Date: 13 Jun 95 06:34:08 EDT >>Subject: F1GPv2 and Grand Prix Manager >>[...] >>Grand Prix II will NOT be networkable as it is not possible to maintain >>real-time communications between computers on a network. Data must be sent in >>packets which would slow the computers down. It will maintain the direct link >>and modem link functions of the original game. >Hmm, thats funny, I could have sworn I played a little game about 18 months >ago called Doom which seemed to have no trouble doing just that...

Doom and GP2/ICR2/Nascar are two differnt things. In Doom you don't depend on quite as many refreshes per second (I know, I've looked at the code). You aren't quite as dead in Doom if your refresh doesn't happen. There is a lot more update and a lot more movement per frame in the racing sims. As somebody pointed out, at Indy you move more than a football field in a second. at 15 frame per second, that's 20 feet. In Doom, only the bullets go that fast. Opponents don't go anywhere near that speed. F1 speeds are slightly lower than Indy, but the point remains. On the other hand, I don't agree with the packetizing statement on a general basis. Network speeds are very high compared to modem speeds. A ***y fast modem is 115kbaud, which 14.7 _kilo_Bbytes/sec. A SLOW network is ethernet, which is 10 Mbits/sec, or 1.2 _mega_Bytes/sec. Even if you wait for a whole packet, you're still able to go fast. (And wait for FastEthernet, at 100 Mbit) The problem is with all of the other software that goes around it, and how busy the network is. And it *is* possible to do near-real-time network communications. You just can't do it over a busy network. -- Brian Wong Product Marketing Engineering

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>------- Forwarded Message Follows ------- >Date: 13 Jun 95 06:34:08 EDT >Subject: F1GPv2 and Grand Prix Manager >[...] >Grand Prix II will NOT be networkable as it is not possible to maintain >real-time communications between computers on a network. Data must be sent in >packets which would slow the computers down. It will maintain the direct link >and modem link functions of the original game.

Hmm, thats funny, I could have sworn I played a little game about 18 months ago called Doom which seemed to have no trouble doing just that... 2 player modem play will do me fine however, as long as it works. / \ \_.--._/<-Sydney, Australia-It doesn't get any better than this. v "doh" -Homer Simpson "it won't happen overnight, but it will happen." -Rachel Hunter.

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>>------- Forwarded Message Follows ------- >>Date: 13 Jun 95 06:34:08 EDT >>Subject: F1GPv2 and Grand Prix Manager >>[...] >>Grand Prix II will NOT be networkable as it is not possible to maintain >>real-time communications between computers on a network. Data must be sent in >>packets which would slow the computers down. It will maintain the direct link >>and modem link functions of the original game. >Hmm, thats funny, I could have sworn I played a little game about 18 months >ago called Doom which seemed to have no trouble doing just that...

I think the reason Doom works fine and F1GP 2 doesn't is that Doom isn't as time critical as F1GP in getting the situation from other computers. If, for example, there is a 1/10 second delay in the transfer between computers, that won't matter in a game like Doom. On the other hand, a formula one car doing 300 km/h (185mph) will move about 8m (27ft) in that time. That kind of delay makes it quite difficult to drive close to another car, as it might cause problems like in your computer it seems like you've completed a pass, but in the other computer the cars are still side by side. Note that I pulled the 1/10 second out of a hat, but I think it is quite close to a delay caused by a network (correct me on this if I am wrong). Samppa -- | Kannaksenkatu 13 |----------------------------------------------------------| | 40600 JKL | Check out the NHSound homepage at | | FINLAND | http://www.jyu.fi/~tamasa/nhsound.html |

If you have 100 millisecond delay you're on a very slow network. 100 ms is a WHOLE lot of bit times, even on ethernet... -- Brian Wong Product Marketing Engineering

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>>If, for example, there is a 1/10 second delay in the transfer between >>computers, that won't matter in a game like Doom. On the other hand, a formula >>one car doing 300 km/h (185mph) will move about 8m (27ft) in that time. That >>kind of delay makes it quite difficult to drive close to another car, as it >>might cause problems like in your computer it seems like you've completed a >>pass, but in the other computer the cars are still side by side. >>Note that I pulled the 1/10 second out of a hat, but I think it is quite close >>to a delay caused by a network (correct me on this if I am wrong). >If you have 100 millisecond delay you're on a very slow network. 100 ms >is a WHOLE lot of bit times, even on ethernet...

The amount of data needed to transfer for one car is probably something like 8 bytes for position (4 bytes x, 4 bytes y), 2 bytes for heading, 2 bytes for engine rpm (to generate correct sounds), 2 bytes for speed and maybe 2-4 bytes for other information. Now, speed could probably be dropped out or maybe transferred about once a second, as can engine rpm. That still leaves 14-16 bytes for each frame. Also, one master computer must collect the data from the other players computers, combine them, and send out data for all 26 cars on the track. Now, for the game, it is necessary to: 1) all other players send their 16 byte packets to the master. 2) the master has to combine the data and possibly handle collisions. 3) the master must now send 26*16 = 416 bytes to each of the other players. 4) each computer must calculate the screen for the players. These four steps must happen about 20 times per second for the game to run smoothly. Also, there must be time to simulate the player cars, and handle the AI cars. This will total to about 10kb per second. Will a network respond rapidly enough to allow the computers a reasonable time to calculate the screen? (I'm not trying to convince that a network wouldn't be fast enough. I only have had experience with ftp through a network, and have reached transfer rates of few hundred kbytes per second, which would indicate there shouldn't be any problems). The 100 microseconds I used in my previous post came from the assumption that the network doesn't respond immediately, but there is a slight delay. If you Brian or somebody else know that a network (ethernet) can handle the data fast enough, I don't see any reason not to include network support in F1GP 2. Maybe they're just too lazy to develop the routines for network (but if they already have serial line 2 player support, this wouldn't cause too much work, would it?). Samppa -- | Kannaksenkatu 13 |----------------------------------------------------------| | 40600 JKL | Check out the NHSound homepage at | | FINLAND | http://www.jyu.fi/~tamasa/nhsound.html |

: If you Brian or somebody else know that a network (ethernet) can handle the : data fast enough, I don't see any reason not to include network support in : F1GP 2. All you need to do is look at the game X-Pilot. This is a true network game that plays pretty good if you are in a LOCAL network. It plays very nicely when using 8 players and about 3 robots. Anyway, I haven't tried it cross-country so I can't say what that would do. I have heard it has lag, but that's top be expected. The reason I use X-Pilot as an example is because it is a frame-rate intensive game, ie the better the frame rate the easier it is to fly. Any lag is an immediate trip into the wall when your terminal 'catches up'. What they COULD do is like <choke> Papyrus. That is to have a local 'host' that people call into and race over the modem. The 'host' takes care of everything. This isn't out yet either, but should be soon.