NASCAR interesting bug/feature

Hello, I just started racing my second race in the Winton Cup series (Atlanta I beleive). Anyway, I managed to get well ahead of the field after a few laps and wass about to lap some cars but since I don't have to complete all of the race in one setting I saved the race. I was surprised to find that not only was I just ahead of the other lead cars but that the about to be lapped traffic wasn't where I expected it either. Strange problem and I would like to see it fixed. Joe O'Connor Driver of the #69 Walls 'R Us Ford, Black with the OUCH on the back

: Hello, : I just started racing my second race in the Winton Cup series (Atlanta I : beleive). Anyway, I managed to get well ahead of the field after a few laps : and wass about to lap some cars but since I don't have to complete all of the : race in one setting I saved the race. I was surprised to find that not only : was I just ahead of the other lead cars but that the about to be lapped : traffic wasn't where I expected it either. I have noticed this too. When you 'save' you race and 'load' it back up (when you're done eating;) ) , you end up as if there was just a caution with 1 lap till green. Notice that your tire temp. are back to normal (120F). It shouldn't be too hard to have a better 'save' mechanism. After all, when you want to watch a replay, it sort of saves it but you don't end up single file with one lap till green every time you want to watch a replay. But hey, I am not a programmer. : Strange problem and I would like to see it fixed. : Joe O'Connor : Driver of the #69 : Walls 'R Us Ford, Black with the OUCH on the back Ujjal Bansel Ford with DEATH written on the back. Fear not, it's only a game. Nobody really get hurt... or do they... MUHAHAHAHA

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>: Hello, >: I just started racing my second race in the Winton Cup series (Atlanta I >: beleive). Anyway, I managed to get well ahead of the field after a few laps >: and wass about to lap some cars but since I don't have to complete all of the >: race in one setting I saved the race. I was surprised to find that not only >: was I just ahead of the other lead cars but that the about to be lapped >: traffic wasn't where I expected it either. >I have noticed this too. >When you 'save' you race and 'load' it back up (when you're done eating;) >) , you end up as if there was just a caution with 1 lap till green. >Notice that your tire temp. are back to normal (120F). It shouldn't be >too hard to have a better 'save' mechanism. After all, when you want to >watch a replay, it sort of saves it but you don't end up single file with >one lap till green every time you want to watch a replay. But hey, I am >not a programmer. >: Strange problem and I would like to see it fixed.

This "feature/bug" is the way Papyrus designed the SIM. The reasoning is you restart the race coming off of a caution. By doing it this way, Papyrus eliminated the "problem" of using the SAVE feature like you would in Leisure Suit Larry to keep from loosing ground. In other words, you can't crank out a good lap, save the game at that point, and continue at full speed. If you***up the next lap, you can't resume the game from your last fast lap. You have to suffer through a yellow flag, bunched field, restart.

It's the way it should be, ie a feature. This prevents you from getting an extra edge through saving the race, ie cheating. Say you are about to lap someone and it's a couple of laps left, you could have saved the race and tried to pass, if you failed - reload. You can't do this with the nice little feature that Papyrus has so kindly implemented. This helps tremendously in the NASCAR series, this way the marshals can be sure that no one has cheated during the actual race. I hope there won't be any save feature in ICR 2.0, and if it gets one I sure hope they do like they did in NASCAR. -- Terje Wold Johansen "I am your inferior superior." -- -- Dept. of Informatics -- -- University of Oslo, Norway --

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>> Hello, >> I just started racing my second race in the Winton Cup series (Atlanta I >> beleive). Anyway, I managed to get well ahead of the field after a few laps >> and wass about to lap some cars but since I don't have to complete all of the >> race in one setting I saved the race. I was surprised to find that not only >> was I just ahead of the other lead cars but that the about to be lapped >> traffic wasn't where I expected it either. >> Strange problem and I would like to see it fixed. >It's the way it should be, ie a feature. This prevents you from getting an extra >edge through saving the race, ie cheating. Say you are about to lap >someone and it's a couple of laps left, you could have saved the race and tried >to pass, if you failed - reload. You can't do this with the nice little feature >that Papyrus has so kindly implemented. >This helps tremendously in the NASCAR series, this way the marshals can be >sure that no one has cheated during the actual race.

I see both points of view. The game was programed to restart after a save like Nascar would start if a race was interrupted by say a rain shower. However, I would like to see you to be able to have a choice on how you want you're game saved for 1 player games (it's your game and choice) , and for multiplayer games leave it just the way it is. Craig

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>I see both points of view. The game was programed to restart after a save like >Nascar would start if a race was interrupted by say a rain shower. However, I >would like to see you to be able to have a choice on how you want you're game >saved for 1 player games (it's your game and choice) , and for multiplayer games >leave it just the way it is. >Craig

The problem I encounter is the way the cars are lined up after a saved game. For example, if you are running 5th and a lapped car is directly in front of you running 27th the lapped car is put back to 27th in the pack and does not keep its track position. The same occurs if you are a lapped car. I would like to see a fix or a new save game that allows the cars to keep their track position after a saved game. Robert

: >I have noticed this too. : >When you 'save' you race and 'load' it back up (when you're done eating;) : >) , you end up as if there was just a caution with 1 lap till green. : >Notice that your tire temp. are back to normal (120F). It shouldn't be : >too hard to have a better 'save' mechanism. After all, when you want to : >watch a replay, it sort of saves it but you don't end up single file with : >one lap till green every time you want to watch a replay. But hey, I am : >not a programmer. : This "feature/bug" is the way Papyrus designed the SIM. The reasoning : is you restart the race coming off of a caution. By doing it this : way, Papyrus eliminated the "problem" of using the SAVE feature like : you would in Leisure Suit Larry to keep from loosing ground. In other : words, you can't crank out a good lap, save the game at that point, : and continue at full speed. If you***up the next lap, you can't Wrong, Papyrus could have made it so that it was mandatory to save a race every time you <ESC> from a certain track and <yes> the save race option . Therefore, the possibility of 'cheating' is eliminated. So, when you <ESC> from a race to go to the bathroom,etc... NASCAR shows the track menu where you can see the replay, standings, etc. Now if you hit EXIT, NASCAR asks you if you want to Save the race, right? Here you have the option of choosing 'yes' or 'no' or 'cancel'. 1) Ok, you choose YES. and NASCAR saves the race (overwriting previous races). When you come back from eating, shopping, classes, etc... you can continue the race by going into the chosen track and selecting PREVIOUS RACE, and voila, you start bunched up as if there was just a caution. What really should happen is that you start EXACTLY the way you exited (except paused). 2) Suppose you choose NO. NASCAR exits to the main menu and still allows the possibility of cheating. Why, because you can still choose PREVIOUS RACE once coming back to that track. Suppose you come back from eating and 'load' up your race. All bunched up with tire temp's at 120, you go around the first corner and wreck. DOH!! Ah ha, you can just exit the track, say NO to the Save race question, and reenter (selecting PREVIOUS RACE) and start bunched up, etc...etc. What should happen is when you select NO to the save race option, it deletes the previous race so you can't cheat when you crash or whatever. Therefore, you can only save a race when you say yes to the save race option and therefore not allowing any cheating of that sort. I would rather have a save race feature that save you position and attributes exactly. Ideally, one should be able to customize whether or not saying NO to the save race option deletes the previous race. So, if you crank out a fast lap, save the race, and on the next lap, you ***up, you can't resume the game without saying Yes to the save race option because saying no would delete the previous race. Got it. : resume the game from your last fast lap. You have to suffer through a : yellow flag, bunched field, restart. ciao, Ujjal Bansel

: > Wrong, Papyrus could have made it so that it was mandatory to save a race : > every time you <ESC> from a certain track and <yes> the save race : > option . Therefore, the possibility of : > 'cheating' is eliminated. So, when you <ESC> from a race to go to the : > bathroom,etc... NASCAR shows the track menu where you can see the replay, : > standings, etc. Now if you hit EXIT, NASCAR asks you if you want to Save : > the race, right? Here you have the option of choosing 'yes' or 'no' or : > 'cancel'. : > : > 1) Ok, you choose YES. and NASCAR saves the race (overwriting previous : > races). When you come back from eating, shopping, classes, etc... you can : > continue the race by going into the chosen track and selecting PREVIOUS : > RACE, and voila, you start bunched up as if there was just a caution. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ This is how it is now Below is how I would like to see it. : > What really should happen is that you start EXACTLY the way you exited : > (except paused). : > 2) Suppose you choose NO. NASCAR exits to the main menu and still allows : > the possibility of cheating. Why, because you can still choose PREVIOUS : > RACE once coming back to that track. Suppose you come back from eating : > and 'load' up your race. All bunched up with tire temp's at 120, you go : > around the first corner and wreck. DOH!! Ah ha, you can just exit the : > track, say NO to the Save race question, and reenter (selecting PREVIOUS : > RACE) and start bunched up, etc...etc. What should happen is when you : > select NO to the save race option, it deletes the previous race so you : > can't cheat when you crash or whatever. Therefore, you can only save a : > race when you say yes to the save race option and therefore not allowing : > any cheating of that sort. : You just missed the point, didn't you? Saving the race will put you at an All I am saying is making the Save Race Option like the Pause race option. Along with having the ability to pause the race (leaving the computer on) to go to the bathroom, there should be the ability of pausing ('Saving') the race to turn off the computer when there is a big thunderstorm, etc... : disadvantage that is *big enough* and will prevent you from taking the : save-&-restore approach in a race before every major pass, etc. But say Ok... hmmm... Lets say I decide to save a race before passing a car. Then I resume the race. I try to pass the car on the outside and I hit the wall and have some damage. If I exit and say YES to the save option... I don't get anywhere, right... I still have damage when I return... If I say NO to the save option under my guidelines, the Race is deleted... I still don;t get anywhere because I have to start a whole new race... there is no Previous race to restore... right?... under my ideal guidelines mentioned above. : you have : a huge crash, blown engine, whatever, then it'd be advantgeous to reload : a saved : game. When you now start you'll of course be better off than with a : blown engine, : so this kind of cheating can only be prevented by the method you described, : ie a : NO to save game will erase the last saved game. That was my point... I already knew about NASCAR's save race option and I was just making a suggestion for a better way to save races without enabling cheating. : > I would rather have a save race feature that save(s) you(r) position and : > attributes exactly. Ideally, one should be able to customize whether or : > not saying NO to the save race option deletes the previous race. : The problem is that it is a simulation, not an arcade game. When you race agreed that it's a pretty damn good one too. : you race to the finish, no artificial interrupts. If you can't race for hmmm... Have you ever paused a race to watch a replay? Do you go to the bathroom? ;) : more than an hour a time, you just have to race shorter distances. Ah... but then it is less of a simulation... maybe? : I guess I'm a purist on this matter, and people will disagree with me, but : I don't want a save option at all. It kills some of the realism just knowing : you can save the race. Think of it as pausing a race... : Btw racing for 500 laps at any track is a killer and it takes a lot of : stamina just like in the real world, and I love that. State of the art. I know how you feel, sometimes my wheel is covered with sweat... Consider the following: You want to have a full race so you set Race to 100% dist. It's a really competitive race and you steadily moving up in the field. You pass Dale Earnhardt and he doesn't hit you... WAHOO... You're in 4th place and it's almost half way, only 250 or so miles to go. You look up at your clock during as you head down the backstraight... OH Shit. It's 7:30 and I have a date with this really hot blonde chick in half an hour... What do you do? Break the date with this really gorgeous babe or have the ability to 'pause'/'save' the race and turn off your computer knowing that when you come back (when she's asleep... hehe) your attributes will be save correctly and you resume the race EXACTLY the way you left it. You're in 4th position on the backstretch and NOT bunch up. : -- Terje Wold Johansen "I am your inferior superior." -- : -- Dept. of Informatics -- : -- University of Oslo, Norway -- Ujjal Bansel

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> : This "feature/bug" is the way Papyrus designed the SIM. The reasoning > : is you restart the race coming off of a caution. By doing it this > : way, Papyrus eliminated the "problem" of using the SAVE feature like > : you would in Leisure Suit Larry to keep from loosing ground. In other > : words, you can't crank out a good lap, save the game at that point, > : and continue at full speed. If you***up the next lap, you can't > Wrong, Papyrus could have made it so that it was mandatory to save a race > every time you <ESC> from a certain track and <yes> the save race > option . Therefore, the possibility of > 'cheating' is eliminated. So, when you <ESC> from a race to go to the > bathroom,etc... NASCAR shows the track menu where you can see the replay, > standings, etc. Now if you hit EXIT, NASCAR asks you if you want to Save > the race, right? Here you have the option of choosing 'yes' or 'no' or > 'cancel'. > 1) Ok, you choose YES. and NASCAR saves the race (overwriting previous > races). When you come back from eating, shopping, classes, etc... you can > continue the race by going into the chosen track and selecting PREVIOUS > RACE, and voila, you start bunched up as if there was just a caution. > What really should happen is that you start EXACTLY the way you exited > (except paused). > 2) Suppose you choose NO. NASCAR exits to the main menu and still allows > the possibility of cheating. Why, because you can still choose PREVIOUS > RACE once coming back to that track. Suppose you come back from eating > and 'load' up your race. All bunched up with tire temp's at 120, you go > around the first corner and wreck. DOH!! Ah ha, you can just exit the > track, say NO to the Save race question, and reenter (selecting PREVIOUS > RACE) and start bunched up, etc...etc. What should happen is when you > select NO to the save race option, it deletes the previous race so you > can't cheat when you crash or whatever. Therefore, you can only save a > race when you say yes to the save race option and therefore not allowing > any cheating of that sort.

You just missed the point, didn't you? Saving the race will put you at an disadvantage that is *big enough* and will prevent you from taking the save-&-restore approach in a race before every major pass, etc. But say you have a huge crash, blown engine, whatever, then it'd be advantgeous to reload a saved game. When you now start you'll of course be better off than with a blown engine, so this kind of cheating can only be prevented by the method you described, ie a NO to save game will erase the last saved game. The problem is that it is a simulation, not an arcade game. When you race you race to the finish, no artificial interrupts. If you can't race for more than an hour a time, you just have to race shorter distances. I guess I'm a purist on this matter, and people will disagree with me, but I don't want a save option at all. It kills some of the realism just knowing you can save the race. Btw racing for 500 laps at any track is a killer and it takes a lot of stamina just like in the real world, and I love that. State of the art. -- Terje Wold Johansen "I am your inferior superior." -- -- Dept. of Informatics -- -- University of Oslo, Norway --

But that would mae it stray away from the "simulation" aspect of the game, wouldn't it? After all , that is the intention of the game. Julio C. Chacon, Jr. Officially Sanctioned Race Fanatic

Saving a game emulates a red flag which means the field will be lined up nose to tail in the order they were in when the race was red flagged. Just like when a yellow flag falls and the field runs around and lines up behind the pace car. I'd go higher than Papyrus to change that rule. Try calling Bill France! ;) Are we pushing or are we extremely loose?

: The problem I encounter is the way the cars are lined up after a saved : game. For example, if you are running 5th and a lapped car is directly in : front of you running 27th the lapped car is put back to 27th in the pack : and does not keep its track position. The same occurs if you are a lapped : car. I would like to see a fix or a new save game that allows the cars to : keep their track position after a saved game. : : Robert : : I feel that the line up should be like in real Nascar. The lapped cars line up on the inside, and the cars on the lead lap line up on the outside. the single file starts, like in the game only happen with less than 10 laps to go in real Nascar. -- ============================================================================ | | | '56 Ford F100 --> '78 Cutlass Salon --> '86 Mustang GT | | "thgir peek ciffart rewols" | | | ============================================================================

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>I have noticed this too. >When you 'save' you race and 'load' it back up (when you're done eating;) >) , you end up as if there was just a caution with 1 lap till green. >Notice that your tire temp. are back to normal (120F). It shouldn't be >too hard to have a better 'save' mechanism. After all, when you want to >watch a replay, it sort of saves it but you don't end up single file with >one lap till green every time you want to watch a replay. But hey, I am >not a programmer.

One thing about this that I believe is incorrect is that when you resume the race (after saving) the order ON THE TRACK changes to become the RACE ORDER. eg the other nite I saved while I was running 3rd, with John Andretti's car #37 in 2nd, but I had Bill Elliott's #94 (?) in front on the track, about to be lapped by my good self in my Flying Funderbird. I decided to save the race and go to bed (doesn't it shit you when work gets in the way of a good sim ?), ready to complete the race the next day. When I returned to the track, resumed the game, lo and behold, there was JA's Purple People Eater right in front of me !! WTF, I say. I then went to replay and checked thru the ranks, and there was ole Awesome way back among the backmarkers. No wonder my Pentium chip gets so hot. It's got all these irate Nascar pilots blueing with the race stewards about track position under yellows :>) Great game tho. I only wish the Australian distributors would get their finger out of their arse and release the track pack here in Oz. It's a bastard reading about it here on the 'net, knowing we can't get it 'til God knows when. Keep bending them panels, fellas. Seeya Steviant

: > 'cheating' is eliminated. So, when you <ESC> from a race to go to the : > bathroom,etc... NASCAR shows the track menu where you can see the replay, How many drivers pause the race to go to the bathroom in reality? You should be playing arcade games not SIMULATIONS! ;-) Thomas - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Goodricke College, University of York, York, YO1 5DD, UK "God preserve us from religious nutters"

: : > 'cheating' is eliminated. So, when you <ESC> from a race to go to the : : > bathroom,etc... NASCAR shows the track menu where you can see the replay, : How many drivers pause the race to go to the bathroom in reality? : You should be playing arcade games not SIMULATIONS! ;-) How many real race car drivers pause to watch a reply? ;) If I can pause/save a flight simulator, I should be able to pause/save (without cheating) the NASCAR simulator unless of course, flight simulators are arcade games... ;) Ujjal Bansel : Thomas : - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - : Goodricke College, : University of York, : York, YO1 5DD, UK "God preserve us from religious nutters"

: : : > 'cheating' is eliminated. So, when you <ESC> from a race to go to the : : : > bathroom,etc... NASCAR shows the track menu where you can see the replay, : : How many drivers pause the race to go to the bathroom in reality? : : You should be playing arcade games not SIMULATIONS! ;-) : How many real race car drivers pause to watch a reply? ;) : If I can pause/save a flight simulator, I should be able to pause/save : (without cheating) the NASCAR simulator unless of course, flight : simulators are arcade games... ;) Perhaps you shouldn't be able to pause FSs ;-) Certainly Gunship 2000 etc. would be rather different if they conformed to reality... :-) Actually, I often do try to complete a whole season without a single replay or other pause, making it more realistic. I generally insert a week or two gap between races, in order to `forget the course' I have just raced, and thus to match more closely the reality of F1 driving. Thomas - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Goodricke College, University of York, York, YO1 5DD, UK "God preserve us from religious nutters"

: : : : > 'cheating' is eliminated. So, when you <ESC> from a race to go to the : : : : > bathroom,etc... NASCAR shows the track menu where you can see the replay, : : : How many drivers pause the race to go to the bathroom in reality? Thomas, I was thinking more about that... I wonder how many drivers have pee'd in their pants during a race (especially when they crash)... Now have you ever pee'd in your pants sitting at the computer when you crashed? (big smiley with a wink ;) ) Seriously, there is a distinct difference between 'reality' and 'simulations' and I think 'pausing/saving' the game happens to be one of those differences. However, the algorithm or the way you pause/save a simulation (game) should be optimized to avoid cheating. If the Nascar simulation has the ability to 'save' a race, it should have been optimized to eliminate or reduce cheating. IMHO, a 'save' feature for a computer simulation should be available for use just in case you gotta go... of course if you don't want to use this feature, I suggest you wear a diaper... (A really big smiley ;) ) : : : You should be playing arcade games not SIMULATIONS! ;-) : : How many real race car drivers pause to watch a reply? ;) : : If I can pause/save a flight simulator, I should be able to pause/save : : (without cheating) the NASCAR simulator unless of course, flight : : simulators are arcade games... ;) : Perhaps you shouldn't be able to pause FSs ;-) Certainly Gunship 2000 : etc. would be rather different if they conformed to reality... :-) Uh.... lots of smileys : Actually, I often do try to complete a whole season without a single : replay or other pause, making it more realistic. I generally insert : a week or two gap between races, in order to `forget the course' I : have just raced, and thus to match more closely the reality of F1 : driving. That's nice. : Thomas Ujjal Bansel

: I was thinking more about that... I wonder how many drivers have pee'd in : their pants during a race (especially when they crash)... Now have you ever Haha, that's pretty funny - actually I heard once instance where a motorcycle road racer had the flu, raced, threw up in his helmet, and went on to win the race ;). : Seriously, there is a distinct difference between 'reality' and : 'simulations' and I think 'pausing/saving' the game happens to be one of On this topic - before we say we shouldn't be allowed to pause/save, you must say we can never run with damage off. To me (that's "to me" not "for me" ;) that is the most exploited unrealistic aspect of the sim. The only argument seems to be for no saving to prevent cheating, but I would think you can curb cheating in other ways. Of course not having to fork the $$$ for my trashed IndyCar is an unrealistic thing I like :). Darrel ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Darrel Cherry San Jose State University - Math/Computer Science Dept. web: http://www.isc.sjsu.edu/b/t/dcherry/public_html =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Uhh, no you got the wrong number....this is 91..2 - Chief Wiggum -------------------------------------------------------------------------

: : I was thinking more about that... I wonder how many drivers have pee'd in : : their pants during a race (especially when they crash)... Now have you ever : Haha, that's pretty funny - actually I heard once instance where a : motorcycle road racer had the flu, raced, threw up in his helmet, and : went on to win the race ;). Whoa... now that's impressive. : : : Seriously, there is a distinct difference between 'reality' and : : 'simulations' and I think 'pausing/saving' the game happens to be one of : On this topic - before we say we shouldn't be allowed to pause/save, you : must say we can never run with damage off. To me (that's "to me" not : "for me" ;) that is the most exploited unrealistic aspect of the sim. The : only argument seems to be for no saving to prevent cheating, but I would : think you can curb cheating in other ways. : Of course not having to fork the $$$ for my trashed IndyCar is an : unrealistic thing I like :). I race in the NASSCAR series and they made a rule that if you win a race, you have to immediately turn right, creating damage as you hit the wall. Then you have to pause the game, hit 'F9', and hit '*' to save a *.pcx file showing that you have damage 'on'. I wonder how other racing series curb cheating. The http address for NASSCAR is http://www.webcom.com/~sabata/nasscar/ Ujjal Bansel

writes: IICC curbs cheating by asking for a replay of your car crossing the finish line in case things look a bit weird (fast, that is). That same feature is used to verify damage on in our hotlap competion. I doubt a PCX file of a crashed car can prove anything! I would just keep a few of them handy in cae someone asked... Division of Information Technology | 608-262-0282 1210 W. Dayton St., Madison, WI 53706 |