GPL and 100% detail bias...

I've recently upgraded my system to finally achieve that magic 36fps at the back of the grid with 100% detail bias... but there's a rather nasty side effect: the cars are partly transparent for about a second after the flag drops. If I reduce the detail bias the effect disappears. And this seems to be a D3D and/or Ati problem, as I only noticed this after changing to an Ati card (and thus to D3D). Has anyone else noticed this? Is there a cure? -- - Jussi Koukku -

Jussi Koukku schrieb:

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> I've recently upgraded my system to finally achieve that magic 36fps > at the back of the grid with 100% detail bias... but there's a rather > nasty side effect: the cars are partly transparent for about a second > after the flag drops. If I reduce the detail bias the effect > disappears. And this seems to be a D3D and/or Ati problem, as I only > noticed this after changing to an Ati card (and thus to D3D). > > Has anyone else noticed this? Is there a cure? > -- > - Jussi Koukku -

I use 99% with my ATI 9700, no problems.

Jussi Koukku schrieb: I use 99% with my ATI 9700, no problems.

Don't know, but I think we've reached the limits of Dx7. It's probable that Dx7 is only capable of so many polys'. I think everyone with powerful systems gets this. The difference between about 80% and 100% detail bias is very small and therefore quite acceptable to me. It only really affects the more distant objects. I have a ATI Radeon 9800Pro and P4-3.2 + 1Gb matched DDR400 ram, and GPL is fine all but this very small problem. Now if GPL was Dx9, :) Alan "Michael Ziegler" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:clii8p$3r7$05$[email hidden]...

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> Jussi Koukku schrieb: >> I've recently upgraded my system to finally achieve that magic 36fps >> at the back of the grid with 100% detail bias... but there's a rather >> nasty side effect: the cars are partly transparent for about a second >> after the flag drops. If I reduce the detail bias the effect >> disappears. And this seems to be a D3D and/or Ati problem, as I only >> noticed this after changing to an Ati card (and thus to D3D). >> >> Has anyone else noticed this? Is there a cure? >> -- >> - Jussi Koukku - > I use 99% with my ATI 9700, no problems.

"Rand Al'Thor" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:Wn4fd.48$[email hidden]... > Don't know, but I think we've reached the limits of Dx7. It's probablethat > Dx7 is only capable of so many polys'. I think everyone with powerful > systems gets this. The difference between about 80% and 100% detailbias is > very small and therefore quite acceptable to me. It only reallyaffects the > more distant objects. I have a ATI Radeon 9800Pro and P4-3.2 + 1Gbmatched > DDR400 ram, and GPL is fine all but this very small problem. > > Now if GPL was Dx9, :) AFAIK you are right, it's a poly limit with DirectX but OpenGL doesn't have the same limitation (or maybe just not yet). 99% detail bias should fix the problem, but cars in the distance visibly change from 2D to 3D which some find irritating. Probably not as irritating as a transparent grid though ;-) Alternatively use earlier versions of some the GPLEA cars (with a lower poly count), but 99% bias is probably the simplest solution. Malc. > "Michael Ziegler" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:clii8p$3r7$05$[email hidden]... > > Jussi Koukku schrieb: > >> I've recently upgraded my system to finally achieve that magic36fps > >> at the back of the grid with 100% detail bias... but there's arather > >> nasty side effect: the cars are partly transparent for about asecond > >> after the flag drops. If I reduce the detail bias the effect > >> disappears. And this seems to be a D3D and/or Ati problem, as Ionly

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> >> noticed this after changing to an Ati card (and thus to D3D). > >> > >> Has anyone else noticed this? Is there a cure? > >> -- > >> - Jussi Koukku - > > I use 99% with my ATI 9700, no problems. > >

On Mon, 25 Oct 2004 07:18:31 GMT, Jussi Koukku <[email hidden]> wrote:

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>I've recently upgraded my system to finally achieve that magic 36fps >at the back of the grid with 100% detail bias... but there's a rather >nasty side effect: the cars are partly transparent for about a second >after the flag drops. If I reduce the detail bias the effect >disappears. And this seems to be a D3D and/or Ati problem, as I only >noticed this after changing to an Ati card (and thus to D3D). > >Has anyone else noticed this? Is there a cure?

The problem is that the Z-axis buffer is 16 bit, and thus doesn't support more then 32000 polygons. There are 2 "solutions". First, dissable the Z-axis in the CORE.INI. This will reduce performance. Second, use OpenGL instead. Cheers! Remco

I did some tests, which you can repeat on your systems too. The exact Detail Bias number can be adjusted in GEM+2 > graphics or in your player.ini. I did the test at the back of a full AI grid at Monaco and although the numbers jump around a bit, you can clearly see the big jumps. I found that the frame rate increased in steps when the Detail Bias setting was changed from 100 to 99%, 75 to 74% and 26 to 25% while everything from 74 to 26% for example gave the same framerate and image quality. It seems that most or all people get the missing image at 100% bias, but it only lasts for a few seconds (albeit at the most important part of the race) until cars move away after the start. Bob Simpson "Rand Al'Thor" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<Wn4fd.48$[email hidden]>...

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> Don't know, but I think we've reached the limits of Dx7. It's probable that > Dx7 is only capable of so many polys'. I think everyone with powerful > systems gets this. The difference between about 80% and 100% detail bias is > very small and therefore quite acceptable to me. It only really affects the > more distant objects. I have a ATI Radeon 9800Pro and P4-3.2 + 1Gb matched > DDR400 ram, and GPL is fine all but this very small problem. > > Now if GPL was Dx9, :) > > Alan > >

An informative thread as ever in this community, so again RAS is a MUST read, also after 6 years GPL Rolf

[email hidden] (simpson) wrote in news:[email hidden]:

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> I did some tests, which you can repeat on your systems too. The exact > Detail Bias number can be adjusted in GEM+2 > graphics or in your > player.ini. > > I did the test at the back of a full AI grid at Monaco and although > the numbers jump around a bit, you can clearly see the big jumps. I > found that the frame rate increased in steps when the Detail Bias > setting was changed from 100 to 99%, 75 to 74% and 26 to 25% while > everything from 74 to 26% for example gave the same framerate and > image quality.

I've done similar tests long time ago, and my impression was that detail bias slider is very granular. AFAIR, there're only 4 different settings, so 99% is the same as 75%. > It seems that most or all people get the missing image at 100% bias, > but it only lasts for a few seconds (albeit at the most important part > of the race) until cars move away after the start. > > Bob Simpson Doesn't it only happen in DirectX? I've never seen it in OpenGL, but maybe I don't have enough graphic updates installed. Alex.

"alexti" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > [email hidden] (simpson) wrote in > news:[email hidden]: > > It seems that most or all people get the missing image at 100% bias, > > but it only lasts for a few seconds (albeit at the most importantpart > > of the race) until cars move away after the start. > Doesn't it only happen in DirectX? I've never seen it in OpenGL, butmaybe > I don't have enough graphic updates installed. It is only DirectX afaik, but OpenGL isn't all that hot in an ATi card. I use OpenGL on a 5900 with the latest GPLEA cars & I've never seen this problem but it's relatively common. Malc.

That's right - I forgot that. You can run 100% detail bias in OpenGL, but I've never done any further tests. I didn't see any imporvement in frame rate and the D3D graphics seemed better. Bob Simpson [email hidden] (alexti) wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>... > > Doesn't it only happen in DirectX? I've never seen it in OpenGL, but maybe > I don't have enough graphic updates installed. > > Alex.

On Mon, 25 Oct 2004 13:09:34 GMT, [email hidden] (Remco Moedt) wrote something like:

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>On Mon, 25 Oct 2004 07:18:31 GMT, Jussi Koukku <[email hidden]> wrote: > >>nasty side effect: the cars are partly transparent for about a second >>after the flag drops. If I reduce the detail bias the effect >>disappears. And this seems to be a D3D and/or Ati problem, as I only > >The problem is that the Z-axis buffer is 16 bit, and thus doesn't >support more then 32000 polygons. There are 2 "solutions". > >First, dissable the Z-axis in the CORE.INI. This will reduce >performance. > >Second, use OpenGL instead.

Thanks for the info. I will try disabling the Z-axis... does it affect image quality? OpenGL isn't really a choice with Ati cards, so if the Z-axis thing doesn't work, I guess I'll just avoid running with full grid ;) -- - Jussi Koukku -

On Tue, 26 Oct 2004 13:07:59 GMT, Jussi Koukku <[email hidden]> wrote:

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>On Mon, 25 Oct 2004 13:09:34 GMT, [email hidden] (Remco >Moedt) wrote something like: > >>On Mon, 25 Oct 2004 07:18:31 GMT, Jussi Koukku <[email hidden]> wrote: >> >>>nasty side effect: the cars are partly transparent for about a second >>>after the flag drops. If I reduce the detail bias the effect >>>disappears. And this seems to be a D3D and/or Ati problem, as I only >> >>The problem is that the Z-axis buffer is 16 bit, and thus doesn't >>support more then 32000 polygons. There are 2 "solutions". >> >>First, dissable the Z-axis in the CORE.INI. This will reduce >>performance. >> >>Second, use OpenGL instead. > >Thanks for the info. I will try disabling the Z-axis... does it affect >image quality?

NO, just performance. The Z-axis buffer is used to sort the polygons. Those are drawn nearest last. So, if 32000 and a bit polygons are drawn, it stops. That's why you see the holes in the cars. If you put the slider to the left, less polygons will be drawn, thus no more holes. Cheers! Remco

On Wed, 27 Oct 2004 12:09:47 GMT, [email hidden] (Remco Moedt) wrote something like:

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>On Tue, 26 Oct 2004 13:07:59 GMT, Jussi Koukku <[email hidden]> wrote: > >>Thanks for the info. I will try disabling the Z-axis... does it affect >>image quality? > >NO, just performance. The Z-axis buffer is used to sort the polygons. >Those are drawn nearest last. So, if 32000 and a bit polygons are >drawn, it stops. That's why you see the holes in the cars. If you put >the slider to the left, less polygons will be drawn, thus no more >holes.

Ok, I tried disabling Z-buffer, but the fps dropped to about 22. I also noticed that max polygon count isn't reached on all tracks. Haven't tried that many tracks with full grid, but so far only Monaco (Monaco Rocks addons) seems to have this problem. -- - Jussi Koukku -

Gee, guys. This car image problem happens for only a few seconds at the start of a race. Rather than suffer frequently with low frame rate when disabling the z buffer why not just either drop to 99% Detail Bias or live with the GPL bug for that 0.5% of the race. Or qualify in a front row. Bob Simpson Jussi Koukku <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>... > > Ok, I tried disabling Z-buffer, but the fps dropped to about 22. I > also noticed that max polygon count isn't reached on all tracks. > Haven't tried that many tracks with full grid, but so far only Monaco > (Monaco Rocks addons) seems to have this problem.

On 28 Oct 2004 05:20:41 -0700, [email hidden] (simpson) wrote something like: >Gee, guys. This car image problem happens for only a few seconds at The first few seconds at the start of an online race are quite crucial. On the other hand, our league uses a dedicated server, which means that there'll never be a full grid =) >the start of a race. Rather than suffer frequently with low frame >rate when disabling the z buffer why not just either drop to 99% I'm certainly not going to keep z-buffer disabled, 22fps is far from acceptable. 99% detail bias is also unacceptable cause my rig can easily handle 100%. Plus it's very much noticeable. >Detail Bias or live with the GPL bug for that 0.5% of the race. Or I'm already trying to live with that 0.5% of ppl who top post, and it's not easy ;) I'm not taking chances on failing to live with partly transparent cars. >qualify in a front row. As if I haven't tried... =) Anyway, the problem isn't likely to arise in any online race I take part in. Offline it doesn't really matter. -- - Jussi Koukku -

"Jussi Koukku" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > I'm certainly not going to keep z-buffer disabled, 22fps is far from > acceptable. 99% detail bias is also unacceptable cause my rig can > easily handle 100%. Plus it's very much noticeable. Except you are clearly saying it cannot ;-) Solution #4: Throw money at your PC. Get an nVidia 5900XT or 6800GT or something, and use OpenGL. I run gpl at 1600x1200 with 8xAniso, 100% detail & so on & get about 32fps at the back of a full gplea grid (about 30 at Monaco with the rocks update), and 36 fps everywhere else. No transparent cars, lovely. Don't really need AA at 1600x1200 but the card has the power to use it online & hotlapping so I do. I'm rarely at the back of a full grid of AI but I often watch server replays with full grids. Problem solved ;-) Malc.

"Malc" <[email hidden]> wrote in news:41811f31$0$80676$ed2619ec@ptn- nntp-reader03.plus.net:

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> "Jussi Koukku" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > >> I'm certainly not going to keep z-buffer disabled, 22fps is far from >> acceptable. 99% detail bias is also unacceptable cause my rig can >> easily handle 100%. Plus it's very much noticeable. > > Except you are clearly saying it cannot ;-) > > Solution #4: Throw money at your PC. Get an nVidia 5900XT or 6800GT or > something, and use OpenGL. > > I run gpl at 1600x1200 with 8xAniso, 100% detail & so on & get about > 32fps at the back of a full gplea grid (about 30 at Monaco with the > rocks update), and 36 fps everywhere else. No transparent cars, lovely. > Don't really need AA at 1600x1200 but the card has the power to use it > online & hotlapping so I do. I'm rarely at the back of a full grid of AI > but I often watch server replays with full grids.

Sounds good, what card do you have? Alex.

On Thu, 28 Oct 2004 17:34:54 +0100, "Malc" <[email hidden]> wrote something like:

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>"Jussi Koukku" <[email hidden]> wrote in message >news:[email hidden]... > >> I'm certainly not going to keep z-buffer disabled, 22fps is far from >> acceptable. 99% detail bias is also unacceptable cause my rig can >> easily handle 100%. Plus it's very much noticeable. > >Except you are clearly saying it cannot ;-)

LOL, I guess you're right in a way =) >Solution #4: Throw money at your PC. Get an nVidia 5900XT or 6800GT or >something, and use OpenGL. No need to go back to that blurry OGL image quality ;-) >I run gpl at 1600x1200 with 8xAniso, 100% detail & so on & get about >32fps at the back of a full gplea grid (about 30 at Monaco with the >rocks update), and 36 fps everywhere else. No transparent cars, lovely. >Don't really need AA at 1600x1200 but the card has the power to use it >online & hotlapping so I do. I'm rarely at the back of a full grid of AI >but I often watch server replays with full grids. I'd run it at 1600x1200 too if only my 19" CRT would give me more than 75Hz at that resolution. 36fps at that resolution is no problem, only in monaco I get less than that at the back of the grid. Next time I start throwing money at the general direction of my PC, it'll be for a new monitor. But thanks for the suggestions. -- - Jussi Koukku -

"alexti" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > "Malc" <[email hidden]> wrote innews:41811f31$0$80676$ed2619ec@ptn- > nntp-reader03.plus.net: > > I run gpl at 1600x1200 with 8xAniso, 100% detail & so on & get about > > 32fps at the back of a full gplea grid (about 30 at Monaco with the > > rocks update), and 36 fps everywhere else. No transparent cars,lovely. > > Don't really need AA at 1600x1200 but the card has the power to useit > > online & hotlapping so I do. I'm rarely at the back of a full gridof AI > > but I often watch server replays with full grids. > Sounds good, what card do you have? 5900 128mb (not an XT) with an Athlon XP3000. Malc.

"Jussi Koukku" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > On Thu, 28 Oct 2004 17:34:54 +0100, "Malc" <[email hidden]> > wrote something like: > >Solution #4: Throw money at your PC. Get an nVidia 5900XT or 6800GTor > >something, and use OpenGL. > > No need to go back to that blurry OGL image quality ;-) If you are dissapointed with less than 100% detail I guess you won't want to compromise here either but I don't find it to be an issue. To my eyes with 8x aniso it looks fine. > I'd run it at 1600x1200 too if only my 19" CRT would give me more than > 75Hz at that resolution. 36fps at that resolution is no problem, only > in monaco I get less than that at the back of the grid. Next time I > start throwing money at the general direction of my PC, it'll be for a > new monitor. But thanks for the suggestions. I have a 21" monitor which is handy for the high resolution, but with 4x AA (I find the card struggles with 8x) it looks okay at 1152x864. I can run 1600x1200 though, so I do. I understand Ati cards have a problem with AA in 16bit colour too. In terms of gpl at least, I find nVidia cards are more 'compatable', although probably not ultimately as fast price for price. There's little to split Ati & nVidia, but OpenGL is one of them. Malc.

Jussi Koukku <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>... > I'm already trying to live with that 0.5% of ppl who top post, and > it's not easy ;) I'm not taking chances on failing to live with partly > transparent cars. OK, I'm not up on the etiquette here. Is it poor form to top post? I thought that I read just the opposite. Could someone straighten me out on that? Bob Simpson

"Jussi Koukku" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> On Thu, 28 Oct 2004 17:34:54 +0100, "Malc" <[email hidden]> > wrote something like: > > >"Jussi Koukku" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > >news:[email hidden]... > > > >> I'm certainly not going to keep z-buffer disabled, 22fps is far from > >> acceptable. 99% detail bias is also unacceptable cause my rig can > >> easily handle 100%. Plus it's very much noticeable. > > > >Except you are clearly saying it cannot ;-) > > LOL, I guess you're right in a way =) > > >Solution #4: Throw money at your PC. Get an nVidia 5900XT or 6800GT or > >something, and use OpenGL. > > No need to go back to that blurry OGL image quality ;-)

Adjust the LOD bias with whatever tuning program you use. The default LOD is different for D3D vs. OpenGL causing this, and its easily corrected so its not a valid excuse for anyone.

"simpson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > Jussi Koukku <[email hidden]> wrote in messagenews:<[email hidden]>... > > > I'm already trying to live with that 0.5% of ppl who top post, and > > it's not easy ;) I'm not taking chances on failing to live withpartly > > transparent cars. > > OK, I'm not up on the etiquette here. Is it poor form to top post? I > thought that I read just the opposite. Could someone straighten me > out on that? Usenet etiquette is the same everywhere Bob ;-) Quick & short: Bottom post & snip your quotes for maximum politeness. Malc.

"Malc" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:41828f86$0$43626$[email hidden]... > > Quick & short: Bottom post & snip your quotes for maximum politeness. > > Malc. > >Post anyway you want, I prefer reading topposted messages, especially if I'm following a thread. I dont need to re-read all/any of the crap from previous posts, all I want to see is the new comments. The top/bottom posting argument is nothing more than stubborn older people refusing to move into the next decade.

"Biz" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:DOxgd.801573$[email hidden]... > "Malc" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:41828f86$0$43626$[email hidden]... > > Quick & short: Bottom post & snip your quotes for maximumpoliteness. > Post anyway you want, I prefer reading topposted messages, especiallyif I'm > following a thread. I dont need to re-read all/any of the crap from > previous posts, all I want to see is the new comments. > > The top/bottom posting argument is nothing more than stubborn olderpeople > refusing to move into the next decade. I'm not arguing, and I don't complain about poor netiquette, I'm just stating the rules/guidelines for the benefit of someone who wants to be polite ;-) There are pros & cons to top/bottom posting and the reason for snipping is the same either way, but it is generally considered simpler if everyone posts in the same basic way on Usenet, and for various reasons (probably including giving the next generation something trivial to rebel against) generally the agreed format is to snip your quotes & bottom post. There is very little information in a Usenet post on which readers can base their opinion of that poster. The format of the post is one of the most important ways. Ever heard the phrase 'it's not what you say it's how you say it'? ;-) Malc.

"Malc" <[email hidden]> wrote in news:4182c072$0$43603$ed2e19e4@ptn- nntp-reader04.plus.net: > There are pros & cons to top/bottom posting and the reason for snipping > is the same either way, but it is generally considered simpler if > everyone posts in the same basic way on Usenet, and for various reasons > (probably including giving the next generation something trivial to > rebel against) generally the agreed format is to snip your quotes & > bottom post.I would disagree about the necessity to posting in the same way. Whether to use top or bottom post depends on the context. For example, if one replies to somebody else points, it's polite (well, at least it's more efficient) to reply below the relevant quotes (and don't quote whole message). Which is technically not a bottom-post if there's more than one quote-reply pair, but people usually call it bottom-post anyway. If one states his views or provide some relevant information without replying to anybody's post in particular, it's practical to top post (and don't quote any other message). In this case one should also chose to reply to the post closer to the root of the discussion thread, rather than reply to the message arguing some particular details and buried deep in the thread. If one states his views or provide some information that's unrelated to the topic of the thread, one should top post and start a new thread (though the new topic should respect the rules of particular newsgroup where it is posted). Alex.

On Fri, 29 Oct 2004 17:28:44 GMT, "Biz" <[email hidden]> wrote something like:

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> >"Jussi Koukku" <[email hidden]> wrote in message >news:[email hidden]... >> On Thu, 28 Oct 2004 17:34:54 +0100, "Malc" <[email hidden]> >> wrote something like: >> >> No need to go back to that blurry OGL image quality ;-) > >Adjust the LOD bias with whatever tuning program you use. The default LOD >is different for D3D vs. OpenGL causing this, and its easily corrected so >its not a valid excuse for anyone.

Surely you noticed the smilie? -- - Jussi Koukku -

On Fri, 29 Oct 2004 23:19:00 GMT, [email hidden] (alexti) wrote something like:

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>"Malc" <[email hidden]> wrote in news:4182c072$0$43603$ed2e19e4@ptn- >nntp-reader04.plus.net: > >> rebel against) generally the agreed format is to snip your quotes & >> bottom post. >I would disagree about the necessity to posting in the same way. Whether to >use top or bottom post depends on the context.

It was just a bait, no need to swallow the hook and line too ;) -- - Jussi Koukku -

Jussi Koukku <[email hidden]> wrote in news:[email hidden]: > On Fri, 29 Oct 2004 23:19:00 GMT, > [email hidden] (alexti) wrote something > like:<snip> >>I would disagree about the necessity to posting in the same way. >>Whether to use top or bottom post depends on the context. > > It was just a bait, no need to swallow the hook and line too ;)Nah... I've just noticed that it hasn't been posted for a while, and new people don't know "whys" ;)