ICR Reality check re:Elkhart

. . . Having spent last week testing like mad at Elkhart in IndyCar Racing (and doing rather poorly - best qualifying time 1:55 and change), I was quite stunned to watch the telemetric readouts from Michael Andretti's and S.Johansson's cars during the real race yesterday. Andretti was hitting just shy of 200 mph on the stretch just past the Carousel. Attempting to duplicate this performance I was forced to radically reduce wing settings in the simulator but then found that so much braking distance was required plus no cornering adhesion that I was lapping 10 seconds slower then ACE default setup allows. It seems impossible to get Andretti's speed (and he was back from the leaders) and Andretti's cornering in the same setup. Is this entirely due to my limitations (I'm willing to take most of the blame) or is there simply a big difference between the real track and the simulated track? Put another way - have any of you ICR grognards matched the real track record lap time of 1:48? If so I must say I greatly admire you. Johansson's readout showed he was taking some of the slow turns in 3rd (turn 2 and the left just before the Carousel), and stayed in 5th between turn 2 and 5. Very different gearing and shifting patterns from those which seem dictated by the default game setups. FINALLY - why was I able to qualify 10 mph faster at Michigan using default FAST setup versus 100% opponent's? This seems the most ludicrous anomaly of all. Is it possible to more closely approximate real world numbers by tweeking the track and driver text files in the game? Does anyone have opinions's on which tracks in ICR most closely match their real-world counterparts when raced at 100% ? I look forward to your comments.

[deletions] : It seems impossible to get Andretti's speed (and he was back : from the leaders) and Andretti's cornering in the same setup. : Is this entirely due to my limitations (I'm willing to take most of : the blame) or is there simply a big difference between the real : track and the simulated track? Put another way - have any of you : ICR grognards matched the real track record lap time of 1:48? : If so I must say I greatly admire you. In the "real" race they said that the cars were running with a lot of negative camber in order to make the tires stick with low downforce. So much so, that they had to shave some *** off to keep the tires from blistering. Can you do these things in ICR? Wasn't it Andretti who popped a tire - twice? [More deletions] e -- Dave Perry VA3DP | Any opinions expressed here are mine and are not

I picked Laguna Seca to learn my first road course, and after doing probably 800 miles there now, I took out my tape from last year and paid special attention to the in-car with telemetry. I was rather surprised to find that all the cars were doing 175-180 mph down through turn 1, while I can barely make it to 150 mph even when turning laps in under 1:08. Likewise at the top of the big hill at turn 7, I've managed to get to the top at 150 mph only once, but Raul Boesel was hitting the crest at around 165. On the other hand, I normally take turn 4 at 135 mph, and I noticed that the real pros were down in the vincinity of 115. I saw a 1:46.912 a while back... This could just be driving style. Look closely at the onboards (especially next week at Nazareth on ESPN2! The race will be shown with "traditional" coverage on ESPN, and simulcast primarily from onboard cameras on ESPN2) and you will notice that the different drivers grab different gears through the same bits of road. I think the 100% opponents qualify a bit slowly too. I'm pretty new to this and I normally can qualify 5mph faster than the opponents at New Hampshire (and I'm 10mph off the qualifying record!). However, 105% opponents are pretty stiff competition. --- Brian Wong Product Marketing Engineering 415-336-0082 Palo Alto, CA 94303

Is this entirely due to my limitations (I'm willing to take most of the blame) or is there simply a big difference between the real track and the simulated track? Put another way - have any of you ICR grognards matched the real track record lap time of 1:48? ************** PART of the problem could be that you are running '93 chassis and engine. You should compare your time with what everyone did last year.

Another thing to consider is that the tires used for this year's Road America race were softer than ever, because Goodyear is preparing for next year's tire war with Firestone. (Speaking of tire wars, I wonder if NASCAR Racing will have a Goodyear/Hoosier tire choice.) --

<stuff deleted about ICR cars being about 20 MPH slower than real cars...> Same thing happens in Toronto and Portland, I think this is a shortcoming we have to live with. Also cornering speeds on ovals are too fast. In Michigan real indycar drivers were slowing to 205-215 MPH when entering turn as my speed is 230-248 (entry) and 215-230 (exit) depending on fuel load and setup. : I think the 100% opponents qualify a bit slowly too. I'm pretty new to this : and I normally can qualify 5mph faster than the opponents at New Hampshire : (and I'm 10mph off the qualifying record!). However, 105% opponents are : pretty stiff competition. The major problem is that qualifying speeds are calculated, not driven by ICR computer drivers. This gives strange results in some tracks: o Michigan: 100% opponents have slow qualifying speeds (215-217 pole), but they can do 222 MPH laps with 40 gallons of fuel o Cleveland: In qualifying computer gets times in 0:59-1:00 region, but in reality they can complete the lap in 1:10-1:15 time (100% opps). F1GP is more realistic in this respect, the drivers spend the qualifying period on track doing what they are supposed to do. BTW: Is it possible to edit track.txt files to change qualifying times to represent reality in ICR tracks? For example changing lap record or some other variable? Pasi. : --- : Brian Wong Product Marketing Engineering : 415-336-0082 Palo Alto, CA 94303

Yes it is, and it is currently in the works. Ralf _ ____ ____ ____ |i| / __| |r__ \ /s___| Ralf Southard ICRS Co-Director |n| |c| |a|_| / \e\_ Editor-In-Chief of Online Racing Int'l _____________________________________________________________________ 6 Armsby Building, University Park, PA 16802

. . As a footnote to my original posting, I was able to shave a further 3 seconds off my Elkhart lap time last night using a modified Fast setup. My top speed still levels out at 176 mph in the longest straights but a 1:52 and some-odd is encouraging enough to convince me that this simulator has a LOT to teach me and that if I don't give up too easily I will find more speed somewhere. The improvements came entirely as a result of increased understanding of cornering for me. Instead of throwing the car into desparate four-wheel drifts and screeching around the corners with white knuckles holding my breath I slowed down a bit more going in, and am able to accelerate sooner as I leave. I crash far less often as well. The feeling of acceleration is quite exhilarating as the car drifts to the outside of the track and takes off like a rocket! The sounds in this game are wonderful- the roaring engine seems quite realistic when I compare it to tapes of real races. It gives a huge sense of power. Am I mistaken, or do I hear the whine of the gearbox in there as well? I'm getting seriously ***ed to this simulator.....Congratulations (belated) to Papyrus for their successful pursuit of excellence. Steve

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|> . |> . |> . |> Having spent last week testing like mad at Elkhart in IndyCar |> Racing (and doing rather poorly - best qualifying time 1:55 and |> change), I was quite stunned to watch the telemetric readouts |> from Michael Andretti's and S.Johansson's cars during the real |> race yesterday. |> |> Andretti was hitting just shy of 200 mph on the stretch just |> past the Carousel. Attempting to duplicate this performance |> I was forced to radically reduce wing settings in the simulator |> but then found that so much braking distance was required plus |> no cornering adhesion that I was lapping 10 seconds slower then |> ACE default setup allows.

I've noticed this too. I think it is just a difference between the ICR model and the real cars.

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|> It seems impossible to get Andretti's speed (and he was back |> from the leaders) and Andretti's cornering in the same setup. |> |> Is this entirely due to my limitations (I'm willing to take most of |> the blame) or is there simply a big difference between the real |> track and the simulated track? Put another way - have any of you |> ICR grognards matched the real track record lap time of 1:48?

My best time is 1:45.803. I got there simply through lots of practice. My setup is the ACE setup with the wings INCREASED considerably. With the standard ACE setup I was getting 185 as a top speed. With my current setup, my top speed is 177. The only changes I made were to increase the wings (both Front and Back increased the same amount) until I'm down to 177. I also had to modify the gearing slightly. I also think that this track is probably the most important to use manual shifting. For example, in the first turn I shift down from sixth to fourth where the automatic shifter leaves the car in sixth. This causes a huge loss in acceleration. |> If so I must say I greatly admire you. Thank you. <<snip>> -- Mike Corrigan

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|> . |> . |> As a footnote to my original posting, I was able to shave a further |> 3 seconds off my Elkhart lap time last night using a modified |> Fast setup. My top speed still levels out at 176 mph in the longest |> straights but a 1:52 and some-odd is encouraging enough to convince |> me that this simulator has a LOT to teach me and that if I don't give |> up too easily I will find more speed somewhere.

I think that practice will drop your time a lot more. I was having a real hard time trying to get below 1:51, but eventually made it down to 1:45.8.. without changing my setup at all. I've found that using the gears to help braking is very effective. Keep those revs up in the 12-13K range when slowing will really increase your stopping power (and let you brake later). Mainly, practice, practice and more practice is what's required. I've also found there is a LOT of time to be lost in the carousel (the long right hand turn about 2/3 around the track). You should be able to hold at least 130mph throughout this turn. |> The improvements came entirely as a result of increased understanding |> of cornering for me. Instead of throwing the car into desparate |> four-wheel drifts and screeching around the corners with white |> knuckles holding my breath I slowed down a bit more going in, and |> am able to accelerate sooner as I leave. I crash far less often as well. I think that the only place where I get any screeching is in the last two turns as I power my way around the last turn.

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|> The feeling of acceleration is quite exhilarating as the car drifts |> to the outside of the track and takes off like a rocket! |> |> The sounds in this game are wonderful- the roaring engine seems quite |> realistic when I compare it to tapes of real races. It gives a huge |> sense of power. Am I mistaken, or do I hear the whine of the gearbox |> in there as well?

I've seen others complain about the unrealistic sound of IndyCar, but I agree with you, it sounds a lot like the real cars (at least as heard on TV) -- Mike Corrigan

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>Subject: Re: ICR Reality check re:Elkhart >Date: 13 Sep 1994 05:43:14 GMT >The major problem is that qualifying speeds are calculated, not driven >by ICR computer drivers. This gives strange results in some tracks: > o Michigan: > 100% opponents have slow qualifying speeds (215-217 pole), but they > can do 222 MPH laps with 40 gallons of fuel > o Cleveland: > In qualifying computer gets times in 0:59-1:00 region, but in > reality they can complete the lap in 1:10-1:15 time (100% opps).

This is nicely reassuring to hear. It drives me into fits of inadequacy trying to qualify while driving behind the slow puckers on the track. The biggest problems are on the road tracks. They corner too slowly, and don't have the horsepower to keep up on the straights. It really gets my goad when they qualify faster than I do, though. I think you just took most of the fun out of the game for me. :) Mike.

writes: > I'm getting seriously ***ed to this simulator.....Congratulations > (belated) to Papyrus for their successful pursuit of excellence. > Steve I hope this feeling will continue - the more I like this simulator, the more I feel Papyrus will need to do a revision to really live up to the excellence you mention. All the new tracks they brought to market in a last minute - no beta test effort this year are full of bugs. Qual times are WAY off, AI is very poor on most tracks, and some totally obvious bugs shipped even with Indianapolis (yellow flags don't go away until you edit the track.txt file). This is NOT excellence. I still love the sima nd hope I can convice Papyrus to refine it rather than to try to get another buggy product out before the Christmas shopping season (NASCAR sounds too good to work without glitches). I am currently working on collecting complaints, ideas and suggestions to then mail a large "Indycar upgrade Petition" to Papyrus. I am willing to pay for a new verion of Indycar that fixes the proplems I have found, and adds a few things that were simply left out. Once this petition gets close to submeission, I will ask here in r.a.s. for people to "sign" it, i.e. I want people to give me their ok to use their email address to support my petition. I would rather see an improved Indycar game than NASCAR crashing on everyone's machine. enough of this rambling. Please send me email with your thoughts on what could be improved about Indycar. We already know about the obviuos stuff, but some detail may have escaped our attention. Peter

> The sounds in this game are wonderful- the roaring engine seems quite > realistic when I compare it to tapes of real races. It gives a huge > sense of power. Am I mistaken, or do I hear the whine of the gearbox > in there as well? Really? On my system the cars just sound like a generic high pitched whine. It's enough to tell you what you're engine is doing, but it doesn't sound realistic to me at all. There's no bass whatsoever. Keep in mind that I have a Pentium system with a Soundblaster AWE32 to boot. I believe I'm using the Soundblaster 16 driver for the game. Thanks, -Bill -- ****************************************************************************** Bill Mette | "People are personally responsible for keeping themselves ******************************************************************************

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|> >Subject: Re: ICR Reality check re:Elkhart |> >Date: 13 Sep 1994 05:43:14 GMT |> |> >The major problem is that qualifying speeds are calculated, not driven |> >by ICR computer drivers. This gives strange results in some tracks: |> > o Michigan: |> > 100% opponents have slow qualifying speeds (215-217 pole), but they |> > can do 222 MPH laps with 40 gallons of fuel |> > o Cleveland: |> > In qualifying computer gets times in 0:59-1:00 region, but in |> > reality they can complete the lap in 1:10-1:15 time (100% opps). |> > |> |> This is nicely reassuring to hear. It drives me into fits of inadequacy |> trying to qualify while driving behind the slow puckers on the track. The |> biggest problems are on the road tracks. They corner too slowly, and don't |> have the horsepower to keep up on the straights. It really gets my goad when |> they qualify faster than I do, though. I think you just took most of the fun |> out of the game for me. :)

Don't let it take the fun out for you. You can modify the track.txt file (I think it is the BLAP value) to adjust the qualifying speeds up and down without changing the race speeds. That way you can have realistic qualifying times to go along with the race speeds. Both the qualifying and race speeds are controlled by the opponent percent, and the BLAP value is used to adjust the relationship between qualifying and racing. -- Mike Corrigan

>I am currently working on collecting complaints, ideas and suggestions >to then mail a large "Indycar upgrade Petition" to Papyrus. I am willing >to pay for a new verion of Indycar that fixes the proplems I have >found, and adds a few things that were simply left out. Here's a quick summary of the bugs I've encounter in IndyCar Racing, plus a wishlist for future versions of Indycar Racing / Nascar. Bugs 1. Sound Effects Pause 2. Invisible / Unreasonable Qualifying Times 3. Race Standing Board doesn't Update 4. Weird stuff in results.txt 5. Other Minor Bugs (yellow / green flags, tires) Wishlist 1. Save the race, during the race 2. Better Pre/Post Race Statistics (like in F1GP) 3. A configurable Quick Race Option (like in F1GP) 4. Real-time Qualifying Sessions 5. More Realistic Driver A.I. 6. Local Yellow Flags 7. Pace Car / Number of Yellow Laps Remaining ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Here's some more detail for those who are interested............. 1. Sound Effects Pause ---------------------- Quite often I come across an annoying 1-2 second pause when I hit the wall/another car before the "crash" sound effect is played. My system is a 486SX-25 with 8Mb RAM (not the ultimate computer, but quite nippy) and an 8bit Soundblaster (quite standard and stable). I've tested with EMM, no EMM, 2Mb smartdrv, a clean boot and every configuration in between, but I still get the pauses. The pauses often occur after about the 3rd lap around a course. This is ***y annoying when I'm in the middle of a hot race and it starts happening. 2. The Invisible / Unreasonable Qualifying Times ------------------------------------------------ On most courses, especially Cleveland, the other cars seem to get quite fast, unseen, qualifying times. Especially at Cleveland on 100% opponents their fastest qualifying time is about 59sec while I can only manage about 1:10 (on Ace setup). What I can't understand is how these cars get these times? When I'm out qualifying and running at about 1:12 a lap (for the whole 10 minutes), the other cars NEVER overtake ! So how can they get a faster time than me. Even when watching a replay of the fastest qualifying car, their speed is well below mine. I also can't understand why they then go so at a such a slower pace during the actual race : Cleveland Times Me (Ace Setup) Other Cars (at 100%) ------------------------------------------------------ Qualifying 1:10.00 0:59.00 Race 1:12.00 1:14.00 3. Race Standing Board ---------------------- I find that whenever I overtake a couple of cars that the race standing board (the F1 key) doesn't re-center itself. This means that you have to constantly press F1 to reset the board, with your name in the middle. 4. Weird stuff in results.txt ----------------------------- Here are some amazing results from the file : Australia : Stuart Jackson Best Lap: 0:28.418 354.098mph Vancouver : Stuart Jackson Best Lap: 0:04.333 1414.878mph I didn't edit these, just a simple cut and paste ! 5. Other Minor Bugs ------------------- I've heard people saying that there are a few bugs with the green flag not being in the right place or the yellow flag system doesn't work properly. The only experiences I've had of this was running out of fuel, while leading the race during a yellow flag. I slowed to a complete stop and so did all the other 25 cars ! They didn't overtake me, they just sat there until I pressed <ESC> ! Also I found that when you smoke the wheels coming out of your pit area, your tire temperatures don't increase. I thought that this is how the real drivers get their tires up to temperature ? ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- And here's my wishlist for the game...(and I know Papyrus might not care, or have time to implement these changes, but wouldn't it be nice if they did ! ) 1. Save the race, during the race --------------------------------- Yes, I know this feature is planned for Nascar, but I want it in Indycar ! 2. Better Pre/Post Race Statistics (like in F1GP) ------------------------------------------------- Why do you have to exit to DOS to read the results.txt file? It should have been included in the actual game, after you complete a race. It would be nice to have the level of statistics offered in F1GP, stuff like Fastest Lap, Lap Records, Driver Lap Times....... (within the game !) 3. A configurable Quick Race Option (like in F1GP) -------------------------------------------------- Again, the Quick Race feature in F1GP would be very welcome in Indycar. It could be used to start the Indy 500 on pole with 125% opponents! This option would be best used for fun, or when you just can't be stuffed qualifying. 4. Real-time Qualifying Sessions -------------------------------- How come when you start a qualifying session, everybody has already raced and scored their best times? It would be better if everyone qualified together (on the road courses) just to make the game more interesting / realistic. 5. More Realistic Driver A.I. ----------------------------- I've logged thousands of laps, but I very rarely see other drivers crash, or take someone else out. We need to see more driver errors, mechanical failures and drivers taking the risky moves (like Jacques on the restart at Elkhart Lake !) 6. Local Yellow Flags --------------------- Full course yellow flags on road courses can be a pain, especially if you've built up a nice lead. The game should introduce local area yellow flags in most minor accidents. 7. Pace Car / Number of Yellow Laps Remaining --------------------------------------------- When driving under a full-course yellow, you have no idea on how much longer the yellow flag will last, therefore it's difficult to plan a good restart. Ideally, a pace car would be brilliant, but hard to implement. A better solution would be to have a board displayed when you cross the line (like your pit board) that indicates how many laps of yellow are remaining. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Whew ! Thanks for letting me get that of my chest ! If anyone has any comments, or solutions to my problems (esp the SFX pauses) then feel free to contact me.

[snip] [snip] Find yourself a book on competitive racing (Bondurant, J. Stewart & Proust have written some). You will pick up a few more tricks of the trade. The one I find helpful, braking through the apex of the corner. This is not hard braking, but keeping the brake on just a little. This has the effect of transferring the load to the front wheels, thus enhancing steering. I was pleasantly surprised that ICR seems to have simulated this quite well. Of course you will need linear braking for this to work. (Thank you Thrustmaster Formula T1!!) -- **************************** Michael E. Carver ************************* Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./. [- < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

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>1. Sound Effects Pause >---------------------- >Quite often I come across an annoying 1-2 second pause when I hit the >wall/another car before the "crash" sound effect is played. My system >is a 486SX-25 with 8Mb RAM (not the ultimate computer, but quite nippy) >and an 8bit Soundblaster (quite standard and stable). I've tested with >EMM, no EMM, 2Mb smartdrv, a clean boot and every configuration in >between, but I still get the pauses. The pauses often occur after about >the 3rd lap around a course. This is ***y annoying when I'm in the >middle of a hot race and it starts happening.

I had a similar problem on a Dell 486/66, but never saw this again on another system. I did swap my soundcard's irq with the parallel port on the system, which fixed that bug, but then my joystick didn't work anymore. I then decided that this Dell machine was the problem. I am pretty sure it is hardware related. I had an 8-bit soundblaster, too. It works ok if you don't use the dma (just tell ICR an incorrect address, but you'll never hear the impact)

>(Speaking of tire wars, I wonder if NASCAR Racing will have >a Goodyear/Hoosier tire choice.) --- Rumor has it it will. Not sure of their differences, we'll have to wait and see. Don't hold me to any of this though. :-( While on the subject, I sure hope they'll be including some sort of better display of points; manufacturers, tires (if indeed they're included) etc. similar in presentation to F1GP... that'd be neat. Anyone have any ideas? Read in a mag. they wanted the end results to be reminicent of newspaper articles and the like from your sports page... hope that's the case as it'd add a lot to it, IMO :-) Keep er' on all 4's! -- Christopher Goucher Atlantic Geoscience Centre work: (902) 426-4754 Dartmouth, Nova Scotia home: (902) 865-9270 CANADA

|> In Indycar some of the top speeds do not match reality, however I think |> that you do need to look at last years times. For example at Road America |> they were not getting to 200 at the end of the straits, more like 185-190 |> (during the race). My race setup has me at about 180-185 at the end of the |> longest straits. Interestingly, the fastest lap times (in the simulation) seem to come with a top speed (at the end of the straights) of only about 176-177. And these fastest times are about the same (1:45) as the times that were being driven at the real track. At the real track the corner speeds are slower, but the top speeds are higher. I've noticed this at all of the tracks, both ovals and road courses. For example, in the carousel I saw (in the telemetry) that the real cars could just about hold 120 mph, while in the simulation I am staying above 130 mph. I've also noticed that for my best times, I have to shift down a lot farther than the real cars. I'm pretty much keeping the revs above 11,500 all the time, except when I'm all the way down into first gear and can't go any lower. The announcers mentioned that the drivers never use first gear except in the pits and I saw that in the telemetry too. In fact, they only got down to second in the left hand turn immediately before the carousel, everywhere else the minimum gear was third. I'm down to first in every one of the tight turns (I don't remember the turn numbers, but all three of the tight left turns and the last right turn) It seems that maybe in real cars you sacrifice a little torque for a little less wear and tear on the transmission. No need for that in this simulation, maybe it would be better if there was. It would be very interesting if someone could get down into the 1:45 range with a car that acted like the real cars (even with last years top speed of 190 mph). -- Mike Corrigan

>>I am currently working on collecting complaints, ideas and suggestions >>to then mail a large "Indycar upgrade Petition" to Papyrus. I am willing >>to pay for a new verion of Indycar that fixes the proplems I have >>found, and adds a few things that were simply left out. Another yellow flag bug is that if you are leading, you always seem to lose at least one spot on a restart no matter how you attack it..... AGREED! And full course yellows on ovals seem to take too long. My idea would be if you don't want to go thru the yellow flag laps, hit an PF key or something, and fast forward to the restart. The AI could use up the appropriate amount of fuel,etc, but this would save the driver time (and in the case of those of us using the keyboard, carpal tunnel!) And if they can do the AI for a pace car, why not put a safety truck out every now and then? Kevin -- ----- Kevin Coulter "If it don't have wheels, it ain't a sport!!!" AT&T - Naperville, IL

>AGREED! And full course yellows on ovals seem to take too long. Unless you run 100% races - the amount of laps one spends under yellow is appropriate, but I'd like to see variation (from 2-4 laps) Good idea, especially if damage is off and you fall asleep in the middle of the pack... BUT: how can you run this game with the keyboard? I played F1GP that way, but ICR just isn't really playable without at least a joystick! Wow! What are your keyboard laptimes in Laguna Seca? Another note on yellows: Since the game is so quick in putting out the yellow when an AI car wipes out, why not give the human the same respect? I am way out in the lead, just past my pits and I brush the wall - dang - I am sideways at 150mph and nobody cares to hold out a yellow flag for me :-( There are plenty of such minor bugs, but it seems if Papyrus addressed the issues raised in just this thread, the game would be a real killer - and I wouldn't hesitate to PAY for the upgrade (which is a sure way of getting their attention ;-)) I will soon post a draft of my petition, but if there are more ideas, just post them here, or email me directly. Peter

In Indycar some of the top speeds do not match reality, however I think that you do need to look at last years times. For example at Road America they were not getting to 200 at the end of the straits, more like 185-190 (during the race). My race setup has me at about 180-185 at the end of the longest straits. However,the games is not perfect. I'm sure that you will see these kind of problems fixed in the NASCAR sim. I think the difference this year is that Goodyear has much softer tires in preperation for the competition with Firestone next year (giving more grip so the teams run less wing) and the natural evolution of the cars. It was a big deal that Bebe Jacques was running 200 on the straits. BTW, I think it was great he won. Would have been his second victory had his car not broke at Michigan. Joe

|> |> Another yellow flag bug is that if you are leading, you always seem to lose |> at least one spot on a restart no matter how you attack it..... |> You know, where the green flag comes. Go slower than allowed (50mph), and make sure you have full acceleration at this point - you must know the exact spot, and start accelerating a bit earlier. This works for the pace lap if you are the leader, too.

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|> >6. Local Yellow Flags |> >--------------------- |> >Full course yellow flags on road courses can be a pain, especially if you've |> >built up a nice lead. The game should introduce local area yellow flags |> >in most minor accidents. |> |> AGREED! And full course yellows on ovals seem to take too long.

Agreed! |> >7. Pace Car / Number of Yellow Laps Remaining |> >--------------------------------------------- |> >When driving under a full-course yellow, you have no idea on how much longer |> >the yellow flag will last, therefore it's difficult to plan a good restart. |> > |> >Ideally, a pace car would be brilliant, but hard to implement. A better ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ No, I am sure, its EASY: it's the same that happens in the pace lap... |> >solution would be to have a board displayed when you cross the line (like |> >your pit board) that indicates how many laps of yellow are remaining. |> |> My idea would be if you don't want to go thru the yellow flag laps, hit an |> PF key or something, and fast forward to the restart. The AI could use up ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Make it 'half a lap before the restart, so you have time to warm up the tires (zig-zagging, etc.).

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|> the appropriate amount of fuel,etc, but this would save the driver time (and |> in the case of those of us using the keyboard, carpal tunnel!) |> |> |> And if they can do the AI for a pace car, why not put a safety truck out |> every now and then? |> |> Kevin

Happy racing! Herbert --

>>> <stuff deleted on sounds> >> <stuff deleted on high-pitched whines> > <stuff deleted on adjusting bass & treble> I have my SB hooked up to the AUX connectors on my stereo. I can then easily adjust the Bass, Trable, and of course Volume :+) to whatever suits my current mood. This has helped the sounds to be more realistic than the old Radio Shack $15.99 specials I had my SB connected to. Of course you think whining noises are an issue? Try playing the game when one of the color "guns" in you monitor goes out and everything is now Terrill

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>> The sounds in this game are wonderful- the roaring engine seems quite >> realistic when I compare it to tapes of real races. It gives a huge >> sense of power. Am I mistaken, or do I hear the whine of the gearbox >> in there as well? > Really? On my system the cars just sound like a generic high pitched >whine. It's enough to tell you what you're engine is doing, but it >doesn't sound realistic to me at all. There's no bass whatsoever. Keep in >mind that I have a Pentium system with a Soundblaster AWE32 to boot. I >believe I'm using the Soundblaster 16 driver for the game. >Thanks, >-Bill

Bill, I know this is so obvious, and do not be offended, but I have a SB-16 (thus use the SB drivers as you do). However, not knowing anything about how the AWE-32 works or operates, I can re-adjust the TREBLE,BASS, MAS.VOLUME etc. in the configuration of the sound in the Autoexec.bat file. The SB of mine defaulted to dismal BASS settings for my liking so I just increased the value... all's bassy now :-) SB-CLabs do this stuff (at least in my card's case) to cover up the 'background' noise and stuff when emulating the old-style SB's.... there is a noticeable difference in sound quality when running SB-PRO programs via the 16 then when I had my orignal PRO card :-( Native 16 supported apps. are tolorable though. Good luck! P.S. I as well, never heard any "whining" in the gear-box to my knowledge. ICR sound is adequate, though, but not 'ground breaking'. What sound setup does the previous (original) poster have? -- Christopher Goucher Atlantic Geoscience Centre work: (902) 426-4754 Dartmouth, Nova Scotia home: (902) 865-9270 CANADA

...in the case of those of us using the keyboard, carpal tunnel!)" ******* How can you possibly get anything out of this - especially on road courses - using the keyboard instead of a joystick or steering wheel? Just curious...

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|> |> I have my SB hooked up to the AUX connectors on my stereo. I can then |> easily adjust the Bass, Trable, and of course Volume :+) to whatever suits |> my current mood. This has helped the sounds to be more realistic than the |> old Radio Shack $15.99 specials I had my SB connected to. |> |> Of course you think whining noises are an issue? Try playing the game when |> one of the color "guns" in you monitor goes out and everything is now

One of the most common causes of loss of one of the primary colors is simply that the cable has gone bad. You should check this first as it is cheap to fix (often just re-seating the cable). A friend of mine had green go away on a brand new 20" NEC ($2K) and was pretty upset until he found that his cat had been chewing on the cable. A year later his printer quite working and, you guessed it, the cat had been chewing on that cable too. -- Mike Corrigan

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>[snip] >> The improvements came entirely as a result of increased understanding >> of cornering for me. Instead of throwing the car into desparate >> four-wheel drifts and screeching around the corners with white >> knuckles holding my breath I slowed down a bit more going in, and >> am able to accelerate sooner as I leave. I crash far less often as well. >[snip] >The one I find helpful, braking through the apex of the corner. This is >not hard braking, but keeping the brake on just a little. This has the >effect of transferring the load to the front wheels, thus enhancing >steering. I was pleasantly surprised that ICR seems to have simulated >this quite well. Of course you will need linear braking for this to >work. (Thank you Thrustmaster Formula T1!!)

Are you talking about trail braking or a quick stab to load the fronts? -- -- | I believe that nothing is unconditionally Michael Woodill | true, and hence I am opposed to every statement | of positive truth and every man who makes it.

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> >The one I find helpful, braking through the apex of the corner. This is > >not hard braking, but keeping the brake on just a little. This has the > >effect of transferring the load to the front wheels, thus enhancing > >steering. I was pleasantly surprised that ICR seems to have simulated > >this quite well. Of course you will need linear braking for this to > >work. (Thank you Thrustmaster Formula T1!!) > Are you talking about trail braking or a quick stab to load the fronts?

I was referring to trail braking. The quick stab works to for getting the car pointed in the right direction, while trail braking keeps weight on the front (steering) wheels. -- **************************** Michael E. Carver ************************* Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./. [- < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

What's trail braking? -- Brian Wong Product Marketing Engineering 415-336-0082 Palo Alto, CA 94303

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>|> >solution would be to have a board displayed when you cross the line (like >|> >your pit board) that indicates how many laps of yellow are remaining. >|> >|> My idea would be if you don't want to go thru the yellow flag laps, hit an >|> PF key or something, and fast forward to the restart. The AI could use up > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ >Make it 'half a lap before the restart, so you have time to warm up the tires >(zig-zagging, etc.).

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Herbert (and Pete): This is another problem that needs addressing (or omission from the manual if they don't). Page 112 - "One Final Secret" mentions the warming up of tires on the pace laps and yellows (which is true) and how the AI's will be doing the same.... funny thing, never see the AI's weaving and the only way I can spark my tires up any is by pulling off a donut (not a Dunkin' ;-)) or two... then they'll raise a few degrees. Otherwise, they actually will get 'cooler'! AI's drive pretty straight at my place, don't know what's up on other people's machines. Like another guy has mentioned, doing 'burn outs' from the pits does heat em' up either. Sure, I can do some SERIOUS zig-zagging and they'll get a bit warmer, but I usually am in the grass when I'm done :-( Just nice and smooth zig zags should do it... what'yall think? -- Christopher Goucher Atlantic Geoscience Centre work: (902) 426-4754 Dartmouth, Nova Scotia home: (902) 865-9270 CANADA

>>>I am currently working on collecting complaints, ideas and suggestions >>>to then mail a large "Indycar upgrade Petition" to Papyrus. I am willing >>>to pay for a new verion of Indycar that fixes the proplems I have >>>found, and adds a few things that were simply left out. My pet peeve is that there is no rev limiter on the engine. REAL Indy cars have had these for years to keep from blowing up engines, but if you miss a shift (damn joystick button is not 100% reliable) you poof the motor. This is *NOT* realistic. My second peeve has already been mentioned: If I tap the wall or otherwise cripple the car, there is no yellow flag. I've put a tire down during a race and managed to keep control of the car enough where I can get back to the pits, but since there is no yellow I wind up oodles of laps down. My workaround to this is to try and take somebody else out with me, since THEN the yellow will come out. I have used this to my advantage many times, but would much rather just have a more realistic situation where I can get a yellow without tagging somebody else. ------------------------------------------------------------- EF Data Corp. Vox: (602)968-0447 2105 W. 5th Pl. Fax: (602)921-9012 Tempe, AZ 85281 My employer snickers heartily at my opinions. -------------------------------------------------------------

>My pet peeve is that there is no rev limiter on the engine. REAL Indy cars >have had these for years to keep from blowing up engines, but if you miss a >shift (damn joystick button is not 100% reliable) you poof the motor. This is >*NOT* realistic. Actually, your situation is *VERY* realistic. A rev limiter only works with "normal" engine acceleration [i.e. foot on throttle, clutch engaged, and transmission in gear]. A missed shift (especially down) is still something no rev-limiter on Earth can deal with. Some sort of scenario labeled as "rev-limiting" in the pits would be the easiest way to impliment a pit road speed limit IMHO. -Bill -- ****************************************************************************** Bill Mette | "People are personally responsible for keeping themselves ******************************************************************************

>>>>I am currently working on collecting complaints, ideas and suggestions >>>>to then mail a large "Indycar upgrade Petition" to Papyrus. I am willing >>>>to pay for a new verion of Indycar that fixes the proplems I have >>>>found, and adds a few things that were simply left out. How about ability to see whether there's an opponent just beside you. How many times have you turned into a corner not realising there's someone there? In real life all you have to do is turn your head slightly. The mirrors could be split in two so that the inner, larger part would function the same way it does now, but the outer part would be angled so that you could see 90 degrees left or right. It would reduce opponents crashed number tremendeously, at least for me :) -- Henrikki T. Hakkanen DISCLAIMER: In no event shall I be liable Voice: ?0-345 5538 my opinions, even if I have been advised of Fax: don't have one the possibility of such damages.

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>One of the most common causes of loss of one of the primary colors is simply >that the cable has gone bad. You should check this first as it is cheap to >fix (often just re-seating the cable). A friend of mine had green go away >on a brand new 20" NEC ($2K) and was pretty upset until he found that his cat >had been chewing on the cable. A year later his printer quite working and, you >guessed it, the cat had been chewing on that cable too. >-- >Mike Corrigan

Thanks for the tip Mike! I was actually very fortunate this weekend. After scouring various electronic stores, I was unable to turn up a decent monitor. Oh, sure they had the ones with the dot pitch so big you could drive a truck through the gaps! Later Sunday evening I decided to tough it out and play a game with the screwed-up colors. After a while of playing the screen flickered ("great!" I thought, "now it's going to blow up!"), and voila! colors were back to normal. Although I have two cats, they haven't gotten to the cabling yet....they only tug on the joystick cord when I am making that crucial pass in the turns at 180mph! BTW, I did check the cabling which checked out fine. I think whatever effect the speakers I had sitting by my monitor had, finally wore off in a couple of days. Terrill

Yeah, this would be great. I had this problem probably 20 times just yesterday at Nazareth. Somebody would come up from behind, then I'd look ahead to figure out where to go, and then he'd be GONE... now... did he go inside or outside? S**t, can't see him. Oh well, let's go inside<CRASH> --- Brian Wong Product Marketing Engineering 415-336-0082 Palo Alto, CA 94303

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>>How about ability to see whether there's an opponent just beside you. >>How many times have you turned into a corner not realising there's >>someone there? In real life all you have to do is turn your head >>slightly. The mirrors could be split in two so that the inner, larger >>part would function the same way it does now, but the outer part >>would be angled so that you could see 90 degrees left or right. >>It would reduce opponents crashed number tremendeously, at least for me :)

I'd even go for something like <- and -> look left/right. Oh, and could we PLEASE make all the keys remappable? F1 and F2 are a LONG way from me when I'm using a T1. The controls are already mostly remappable, but some things like the brake bias etc aren't... --- Brian Wong Product Marketing Engineering 415-336-0082 Palo Alto, CA 94303

>>AGREED! And full course yellows on ovals seem to take too long. >Unless you run 100% races - the amount of laps one spends under yellow is >appropriate, but I'd like to see variation (from 2-4 laps) I dunno, I think that for 1 or 2 car accidents, they are sometimes too long. Been awhile since I did laguna. Road America my best time is 1:59. Keep in mind that because of using the kbd, I can't brake/accelerate and steer simultaneously, and because of the response, I think steering in general is a little more difficult. I'm having a resource problem that I haven't had time to fix to get my joystick working. That is the next project, but I haven't had time to take the dang thing apart. -- ----- Kevin Coulter "If it don't have wheels, it ain't a sport!!!" AT&T - Naperville, IL

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>Subject: Re: rev limiter (was: ICR Bugs and Wishlist) >Date: 18 Sep 1994 23:14:13 -0500 >>My pet peeve is that there is no rev limiter on the engine. REAL Indy cars >>have had these for years to keep from blowing up engines, but if you miss a >>shift (damn joystick button is not 100% reliable) you poof the motor. This is >>*NOT* realistic. >Actually, your situation is *VERY* realistic. A rev limiter only works >with "normal" engine acceleration [i.e. foot on throttle, clutch engaged, >and transmission in gear]. A missed shift (especially down) is still >something no rev-limiter on Earth can deal with. > Some sort of scenario labeled as "rev-limiting" in the pits would be the >easiest way to impliment a pit road speed limit IMHO.

That's how they keep from violating pit speed limits these days. ANd I was talking about the rev limiter keeping the engine from poofing when you miss an upshift, which is what a rev limiter is for (or when the drive is disengaged for whatever reason). Missing a downshift does not endanger an engine. Hitting one too early does, though, and this is where the rev limiter can't help you. I think the trannies have enough sense not to allow a down shift in this case though, (at least those with electronic shift). In my case I miss shifts occassionally and the engine pops. I sitll maintain that this is NOT realistic. I've driven Formula Fords with rev limiters and they are effective. It would seem to be an extremely simple thing to put this in a simulator. ------------------------------------------------------------- EF Data Corp. Vox: (602)968-0447 2105 W. 5th Pl. Fax: (602)921-9012 Tempe, AZ 85281 My employer snickers heartily at my opinions. -------------------------------------------------------------

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>(-Coulter,K.J.) writes: >...in the case of those of us using the keyboard, carpal tunnel!)" >******* >How can you possibly get anything out of this - especially on road courses >- using the keyboard instead of a joystick or steering wheel? Just >curious...

Its still a lot of fun, just a little more difficult at times, and it is hard on the hands and wrists..... Other than that..... Kevin -- ----- Kevin Coulter "If it don't have wheels, it ain't a sport!!!" AT&T - Naperville, IL

I used to think that too, but it turns out that this is not the case, at least on my Gateway systems. I can steer and accelerate/brake(/break) all at the same time. I managed one really hot lap at Laguna Seca the other day on the keyboard of my notebook at 1:17 (my best on the T1 is 1:07.793). It's not easy. I found that setting the steering to linear helped me on the keyboard. --- Brian Wong Product Marketing Engineering 415-336-0082 Palo Alto, CA 94303

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|> > |> > >BUT: how can you run this game with the keyboard? I played F1GP that way, |> > >but ICR just isn't really playable without at least a joystick! Wow! What |> > >are your keyboard laptimes in Laguna Seca? |> > |> > Been awhile since I did laguna. Road America my best time is 1:59. Keep |> > in mind that because of using the kbd, I can't brake/accelerate and steer |> |> I used to think that too, but it turns out that this is not the case, at least |> on my Gateway systems. I can steer and accelerate/brake(/break) all at the |> same time. I managed one really hot lap at Laguna Seca the other day on |> the keyboard of my notebook at 1:17 (my best on the T1 is 1:07.793). It's |> not easy. |> |> > simultaneously, and because of the response, I think steering in general is |> > a little more difficult. |> |> I found that setting the steering to linear helped me on the keyboard.

I am absolutely astounded that you guys can get reasonable times (1:59 at Elkhart, 1:17 at Laguna) using the keyboard. I ran the game once on a laptop and had to use the keyboard. I was able to get the steering lock set pretty good for an oval (Michigan), but I gave up on the road tracks pretty quickly. Amazing -- Mike Corrigan

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>>>>I am currently working on collecting complaints, ideas and suggestions >>>>to then mail a large "Indycar upgrade Petition" to Papyrus. I am willing >>>>to pay for a new verion of Indycar that fixes the proplems I have >>>>found, and adds a few things that were simply left out. >My pet peeve is that there is no rev limiter on the engine. REAL Indy cars >have had these for years to keep from blowing up engines, but if you miss a >shift (damn joystick button is not 100% reliable) you poof the motor. This is >*NOT* realistic. >My second peeve has already been mentioned: If I tap the wall or otherwise >cripple the car, there is no yellow flag. I've put a tire down during a race >and managed to keep control of the car enough where I can get back to the >pits, but since there is no yellow I wind up oodles of laps down. My >workaround to this is to try and take somebody else out with me, since THEN >the yellow will come out. I have used this to my advantage many times, but >would much rather just have a more realistic situation where I can get a >yellow without tagging somebody else.

The biggest problem I have is not with the ICR simulation, but with the way Papyrus has been absolutely unresponsive to the many concerns that have been raised here. Their excuse is, "we're working on NASCAR". But the fact is, if ICR has problems, NASCAR will too. And if they have fixed the problems with NASCAR, why not just use that work and port it over to ICR? Sign me up on the pettition, Peter. But right now, my guess is that people are going to have to get real agressive to get anything more than, "I've passed along aol.com).

I've got used to keys now (well its a case of having to :). At Portland my best is 1:01.467. At long beach i was doing mid 0:54s (i think, was awhile ago). I think you have to be very careful about what keys you choose. I use: tab, q - change down/up a,s - brake/accelerate j,k - left/right (what classic driving game are these keys based on?) I recall experimenting with using i and o for left and right, but this left me in the wall just after the right hand kink after turn 1 at Portland. Having lots of keys going up and down simultaneously on pcs is always a problem. There are probably rules as to what combinations down work.. I'm still paranoid that my braking suffers on turn-in... Perhaps the fastest lap posting should have a section for key-users.. Danius

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>I've got used to keys now (well its a case of having to :). At Portland >my best is 1:01.467. At long beach i was doing mid 0:54s (i think, was >awhile ago). I think you have to be very careful about what keys you >choose. I use: > tab, q - change down/up > a,s - brake/accelerate > j,k - left/right >(what classic driving game are these keys based on?) >Danius

Revs for the BBC Micro!

I think we're all overestimating Papyrus's ability to execute on large projects. They're a relatively small company. Give 'em a break! --- Brian Wong Product Marketing Engineering 415-336-0082 Palo Alto, CA 94303

When you're stuck on an airplane for 13 hours, you don't give up as quickly :-) And I only got ONE lap at Laguna Seca under 1:25 or so... --- Brian Wong Product Marketing Engineering 415-336-0082 Palo Alto, CA 94303

Baloney! We paid for a product that has warts, and we have a right (a responsibility, in my opinion), to complain until it gets fixed. History has proven over and over that if you don't, it won't. If Papyrus continues to ignore the bug reports, complaints, etc., they'll suffer for it. If F1GP listens to complaints about ICR *or* GP and respond to them, they'll wind up with a better product and more business. Since I am personally more interested in Indy cars than F1, I'm gonna gripe and whine about ICR until it gets fixed. :) ------------------------------------------------------------- EF Data Corp. Vox: (602)968-0447 2105 W. 5th Pl. Fax: (602)921-9012 Tempe, AZ 85281 My employer snickers heartily at my opinions. -------------------------------------------------------------

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>I recall experimenting with using i and o for left and right, but this >left me in the wall just after the right hand kink after turn 1 at >Portland. Having lots of keys going up and down simultaneously on pcs >is always a problem. There are probably rules as to what combinations >down work.. I'm still paranoid that my braking suffers on turn-in... >Perhaps the fastest lap posting should have a section for key-users.. >Danius

I've been thinking about making 3 sections to the Fast Lap list: Steering wheel/yoke, joystick and keyboard. What do you all think?? I'd be happy to do it if I get enough responses from you. -- Henrikki T. Hakkanen DISCLAIMER: In no event shall I be liable Voice: +358-0-345 5538 my opinions, even if I have been advised of Fax: don't have one the possibility of such damages.

> tab, q - change down/up > a,s - brake/accelerate > j,k - left/right >(what classic driving game are these keys based on?) Revs! Oh yessiree! Can't wait for a BBC emulator (shouldn't be too distant...) so I can belt round Snetterton again (my fave track). Hmm, I wonder if they've got any Beebs spare around here :-) BTW: Revs used L, + for left-right, and space to amplify the movement William ---------------------------------------------------------------- |\ _,,,---,,_ Software Engineer, ZZZzz /,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,_ Acorn Computers Ltd, |,4- ) )-,_. ,\ ( `'-' Cambridge, England.

IMO its taken 10 years for Revs to be bettered.. and a heck of alot more ram and processing power.. yes, but key next to l is used already..(or was it coz i kept fiddling with my brake bias with my little finger, accidentally?). I remembed about the space key last night.. I'd like to see something like it in Indycar2. Also on Revs you could turn and then hold both turn keys down to hold the steering wheel in that position, very useful. Danius

[I'm aware that my last post showed up several times; I'm stuck using mail-to-news gateways and posting to alt.test didn't accurately represent the posting delays. Sorry about that.] I've collected a few little improvements to ICR that people would like. Some of them overlap with the posted list. * Save game part-way through race. * Suggested gear/ideal line like F1GP for learning. * Ability to edit driver/team names from within game. * See rain falling! (A DX2/66 going to someone's head, I think!) * Texture mapped sky. * Makes toast. -- General DataComm Advanced Research Centre Limited -- Telephone +44 (0)1268 534228 -- Disclaimer: I didn't say anything.

I'am sure they would like these ideas. X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL0] : As a recent purchaser of ICR, I've been noticing things that may be : old hat to the rest of you. : For instance, I can't believe how many times the computer cars try : to go into a turn on an oval 4 wide. They slow the whole group down : and I end up comming up on them with a speed differential of ~50mph. : In fact, the computer cars seem to duke it out all the time. Thereby : slowing both cars in the battle. : I'd like to see a more populated pit road. That would make things a little : more realistic. It would be even a greater challenge to pick out your : team amongst all the others. : I'd also like to have in car radio. Instead of getting your lap board, : have the sound card speak up! Have your pit crew tell you what your : stats are. : And how about the way the computer cars behind you act when you've crashed. : Every once in a while, when I crash, I'd like to be spinning, then get : plowed into by another car. : Tear offs would be cool. Maybe you'd have to reach up to the keyboard : to hit the spacebar to clear up your vision. And on that note, more : visible computer car troubles, like a smoking engine that spews oil : all over your visor. And, to tie in again, have your pit crew radio : you to watch out for oil/debris/burning car in turn X. : Driver personalities should be difficult to implement but cool. Did : I read they were doing this in NASCAR? : Career management. Get fired by a team, get promoted to #1 car, etc... : Get forced to practice or tire test. Do it for an entire career, not : just 1 season - year after year. : where shall I stop... : I should be able to limp into the pits alot better when I blow a tire : after bumping someone. : Pace car. I have no idea why this wasn't implemented to begin with. : What? Couldn't Papyrus animate a car driving on the track? sheesh. : Combination wet and dry races. You have to make the decision to : come in and put on rain tires or not... : You should actually have to drive into victory lane. Pull the car : right up on to the ramp. : Work with your "computer" team mate on setups? Ride along with them : in practice sessions to check speeds and tire temps. Or just get a : stat sheet. : Have you ever wanted to see that tire hit the ground and roll a bit : after it flew aff your car in a wreck? : How 'bout runoff areas on road circuits? Full with cones and tire : barriers and hay bales? : ok..that's about all I can come up with now. : If I were to pick 1 or 2 of these...I'd pick #1 radio contact with pit : crew, and #2 career management. : Thanks for bearing with me... : Reed Keel : These are my personal opinions. .

--- I think it is a good idea, myself, and to top that off I'd like to go out on a limb and suggest that for ICRS-3 (and others) adopt different classes for different driving devices myself, for each division. (Hi Ralf :) ). I may be way out in left field here, but I feel a joystick/yoke will produce better times/speeds so therefore should be ranked differently (how anyone can play ICR with the keyboard consistantly is beyond me anyway, but that's my opinion ;-) ). I think there should be a keyboard-class, joystick/ yoke class, and the T-1 driving unit (manual shifting compulsary!) class myself. The reason I separte yoke and the T-1 is that with many yokes (at least the one I have - CH-VP) it just doesn't have enough buttons to be convenient to manual shift (and NOT pull/yank on the column)... thus it's just a glorified j.stick, IMO. With rudder pedals it may be fine (?) --- What'ya say all? -- Christopher Goucher Atlantic Geoscience Centre work: (902) 426-4754 Dartmouth, Nova Scotia home: (902) 865-9270 CANADA