F1GP Senna & Tamburello. Driver Error?

I tried a little experiment to see how dangerous Tamburello really is. I ran F1GP with steering and traction help off. (I use a joystick) I put on 0 wings front and rear. I put on the slipperiest tires (A). I geared the car for the high speeds that 0 wings would produce. In short I created the most undriveable setup imaginable and then took to the San Marino track looking for answers. What I learned was what I expected and more! The car was impossible to get through a single corner or chicane but I sailed through Tamburello and the following curve (Villeneuve) at well over 200 mph on the first try without so much as a hiccup. To me this absolves Senna from having made a driving error. F1GP tracks are precisely like the real thing in shape so even if the car dynamics are not totally realistic and there are no bumps it still prooves that Tamburello is essentially a straight. It certainly feels like one when running F1GP. It's the easiest part of the entire track. I can not believe the allegations that an error there would even matter. You can take any line you like through it. It really doesn't matter what you do short of purposely steering onto the grass or just letting go of the joystick. I rest my case. :) -- Max Behara Molly: "DS+MC" Bt+W C 1.3 X+++ L W- C+ I+++ T+ H+ S+ V+ P- E- A+ "The Net interprets censorship as damage and routes around it." - John Gilmore Ayrton Senna (1960-1994) Roland Ratzenberger (1962-1994)

There was quite a lot of discussion on rec.autos.sport about Patrick Head's remark that Senna made an error. He stated that Senna lifted in the corner, which we know will produce a lot less downforce, esp when doing 190+ mph but we all concluded that would produce _oversteer_ while in fact Senna left the track with understeer. Last I heard, Williams denied any mechanical failure. Still havent got the latest on the driver error story. I think it got to the point where the oversteer might have been over-corrected by Senna to cause him to go off, but no concrete facts at hand at the moment. Your test with F1GP would not show the very fine stability limit inherent with a low-suspension, the car bottoming out through the resurfaced part of Tamburello, the effect of the diffuser in assisting downforce, the effect of suddenly lifting off the throttle at 190+, the cooler tyres (after the safety car had been out) etc. Otherwise I'd agree with you that Tamburello presents no driving difficulty at all. Cheers, Cameron.

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|> I tried a little experiment to see how dangerous Tamburello really |> is. I ran F1GP with steering and traction help off. (I use a joystick) I |> put on 0 wings front and rear. I put on the slipperiest tires (A). I |> geared the car for the high speeds that 0 wings would produce. In short I |> created the most undriveable setup imaginable and then took to the San |> Marino track looking for answers. |> What I learned was what I expected and more! The car was |> impossible to get through a single corner or chicane but I sailed through |> Tamburello and the following curve (Villeneuve) at well over 200 mph on |> the first try without so much as a hiccup. To me this absolves Senna from |> having made a driving error. F1GP tracks are precisely like the real thing |> in shape so even if the car dynamics are not totally realistic and there |> are no bumps it still prooves that Tamburello is essentially a straight. |> It certainly feels like one when running F1GP. It's the easiest part of |> the entire track. I can not believe the allegations that an error there |> would even matter. You can take any line you like through it. It really |> doesn't matter what you do short of purposely steering onto the grass or |> just letting go of the joystick. |> I rest my case. :) |> |> |> -- |> Max Behara |> Molly: "DS+MC" Bt+W C 1.3 X+++ L W- C+ I+++ T+ H+ S+ V+ P- E- A+ |> "The Net interprets censorship as damage and routes around it." - John Gilmore |> Ayrton Senna (1960-1994) Roland Ratzenberger (1962-1994)

Are you kidding me? ARE YOU KIDDING ME??!! You expect a pc entertianment game to simulate the conditions of actually negotiating Tamburello at 180mph? Do you really think that F1GP simulates the actual bumps, exhaust-blown diffuser effect (which would come into play if, indeed, Senna did lift, as P. Head suggests), fuel load (bottoming out), and myrad other subtle, yet important dynamic effects? Granted, F1GP is great fun, but lets stay realistic here. I mean, it is possible to win races at most venues in the amaetur (sp?) (steering, braking assist) setting with the default car. Allen G. Oberhauser ........ Animator ........ Engineering Animation, Inc. "You don't realize you're famous until you get a letter from some guy in Ames,Iowa." Juli Furtado

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> |> I tried a little experiment to see how dangerous Tamburello really > |> is. I ran F1GP with steering and traction help off. (I use a joystick) I > |> put on 0 wings front and rear. I put on the slipperiest tires (A). I > |> geared the car for the high speeds that 0 wings would produce. In short I > |> created the most undriveable setup imaginable and then took to the San > |> Marino track looking for answers. > |> What I learned was what I expected and more! The car was > |> impossible to get through a single corner or chicane but I sailed through > |> Tamburello and the following curve (Villeneuve) at well over 200 mph on > |> the first try without so much as a hiccup. To me this absolves Senna from > |> having made a driving error. F1GP tracks are precisely like the real thing > |> in shape so even if the car dynamics are not totally realistic and there > |> are no bumps it still prooves that Tamburello is essentially a straight. > |> It certainly feels like one when running F1GP. It's the easiest part of > |> the entire track. I can not believe the allegations that an error there > |> would even matter. You can take any line you like through it. It really > |> doesn't matter what you do short of purposely steering onto the grass or > |> just letting go of the joystick. > |> I rest my case. :) > |> > |> > |> -- > |> Max Behara > |> Molly: "DS+MC" Bt+W C 1.3 X+++ L W- C+ I+++ T+ H+ S+ V+ P- E- A+ > |> "The Net interprets censorship as damage and routes around it." - John Gilmore > |> Ayrton Senna (1960-1994) Roland Ratzenberger (1962-1994) > Are you kidding me? ARE YOU KIDDING ME??!! You expect a pc entertianment game to simulate the conditions of actually negotiating Tamburello at 180mph? Do you really think that F1GP simulates the actual bumps, exhaust-blown diffuser effect (which would com> e into play if, indeed, Senna did lift, as P. Head suggests), fuel load (bottoming out), and myrad other subtle, yet important dynamic effects? > Granted, F1GP is great fun, but lets stay realistic here. I mean, it is possible to win races at most venues in the amaetur (sp?) (steering, braking assist) setting with the default car. > Allen G. Oberhauser ........ Animator ........ Engineering Animation, Inc. > "You don't realize you're famous until you get a > letter from some guy in Ames,Iowa." Juli Furtado

I agree totally with Allen, how can you judge what happened by playing a computer game? I can only assume you are joking. Mike.

: Are you kidding me? ARE YOU KIDDING ME??!! You expect a pc entertianment game to simulate the conditions of actually negotiating Tamburello at 180mph? Do you really think that F1GP simulates the actual bumps, exhaust-blown diffuser effect (which would come into play if, indeed, Senna did lift, as P. Head suggests), fuel load (bottoming out), and myrad other subtle, yet important dynamic effects? : Granted, F1GP is great fun, but lets stay realistic here. I mean, it is possible to win races at most venues in the amaetur (sp?) (steering, braking assist) setting with the default car. While I don't think the game gives a totally realistic expression of how tough a corner really is, it *has* been said by many people that Tamburello *is* an easy corner. F1GP seems to confirm that as well. I think that is the point being made. Not that any joe-blow could take the turn in a real F1 car. The point is that it seems hard to believe that driver error would be the cause in a turn like that. BTW, F1GP does model the effects of weight transfer on all 4 wheels in a turn as well as under braking and acceleration and reacts differently under changing fuel load as well. It was based on the analysis of the 1990 Footwork/Arrows F1car. I think it *is* a pretty good way of judging the geometry of a turn. The gearing and speeds through the turns are also pretty realistic. You can see this by watching the in-car TV shots at the various tracks as well as the telemetry when they bother showing it. A lot of people could appreciate the tracks a lot more if they played around with F1GP/WC as well. (same goes for Indycar), rather than just seeing it for 2hrs on TV. RQ -- __ ;;;;;; #### / \;;;;;;;;; #### /____/;;;;;;;;;;;;; #### : :::::::::::::::::: : ##### ## : :::::::::::::::: : ___###### : :::::::::::::::::: :___________ M Y O P I N I O N S A R E E X A C T L Y T H A T

However, I did the same thing, and if He were to lose steering control in tambuerello, I could recreat the accident, angle and all, by just continuing straight. My point-Your point is correct. The steering, most likely, would have had to fail in order to recreate that accident.

Try your test again with normal front wings and no rear wing. Sort of like losing the downforce at the back from lifting (or losing the effect of the diffuser). Different story. Back end twitches, and if you try to catch it you go straight off. -- Stephen Ferguson "There's a madness to my method"

>However, I did the same thing, and if He were to lose steering control in >tambuerello, I could recreat the accident, angle and all, by just continuing >straight. My point-Your point is correct. The steering, most likely, would >have had to fail in order to recreate that accident. I tried that as well but didn't post it. Just let go of the joystick and the car plows into the wall at a shallow angle. All you lose is the front wing however. -- Max Behara Molly: "DS+MC" Bt+W C 1.3 X+++ L W- C+ I+++ T+ H+ S+ V+ P- E- A+ "The Net interprets censorship as damage and routes around it." - John Gilmore Ayrton Senna (1960-1994) Roland Ratzenberger (1962-1994)

>Try your test again with normal front wings and no rear wing. Sort of >like losing the downforce at the back from lifting (or losing the effect >of the diffuser). Different story. Back end twitches, and if you >try to catch it you go straight off. Tried it. Massive oversteer. Spun out in Tamburello every time. Never went straight off. -- Max Behara Molly: "DS+MC" Bt+W C 1.3 X+++ L W- C+ I+++ T+ H+ S+ V+ P- E- A+ "The Net interprets censorship as damage and routes around it." - John Gilmore Ayrton Senna (1960-1994) Roland Ratzenberger (1962-1994)

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>|> I tried a little experiment to see how dangerous Tamburello really >|> is. I ran F1GP with steering and traction help off. (I use a joystick) I >|> put on 0 wings front and rear. I put on the slipperiest tires (A). I >|> geared the car for the high speeds that 0 wings would produce. In short I >|> created the most undriveable setup imaginable and then took to the San >|> Marino track looking for answers. >|> What I learned was what I expected and more! The car was >|> impossible to get through a single corner or chicane but I sailed through >|> Tamburello and the following curve (Villeneuve) at well over 200 mph on >|> the first try without so much as a hiccup. To me this absolves Senna from >|> having made a driving error. F1GP tracks are precisely like the real thing >|> in shape so even if the car dynamics are not totally realistic and there >|> are no bumps it still prooves that Tamburello is essentially a straight. >|> It certainly feels like one when running F1GP. It's the easiest part of >|> the entire track. I can not believe the allegations that an error there >|> would even matter. You can take any line you like through it. It really >|> doesn't matter what you do short of purposely steering onto the grass or >|> just letting go of the joystick. >|> I rest my case. :) >|> >|> >|> -- >|> Max Behara >|> Molly: "DS+MC" Bt+W C 1.3 X+++ L W- C+ I+++ T+ H+ S+ V+ P- E- A+ >|> "The Net interprets censorship as damage and routes around it." - John Gilmore >|> Ayrton Senna (1960-1994) Roland Ratzenberger (1962-1994) >Are you kidding me? ARE YOU KIDDING ME??!! You expect a pc entertianment game to simulate the conditions of actually negotiating Tamburello at 180mph? Do you really think that F1GP simulates the actual bumps, exhaust-blown diffuser effect (which would come into play if, indeed, Senna did lift, as P. Head suggests), fuel load (bottoming out), and myrad other subtle, yet important dynamic effects? >Granted, F1GP is great fun, but lets stay realistic here. I mean, it is possible to win races at most venues in the amaetur (sp?) (steering, braking assist) setting with the default car.

I think if you take a close look you will notice that the real San Marino GP and the F1GP game run the Imola track in opposite directions. In the real thing Tamburello is left hander and in the game it is a right hander and since Tamburrelo is NOT a constant radius turn (it's close but not close enough to call it one) this sor'ta makes any comparisons pointless.

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>>|> I tried a little experiment to see how dangerous Tamburello really >>|> is. I ran F1GP with steering and traction help off. (I use a joystick) I >>|> put on 0 wings front and rear. I put on the slipperiest tires (A). I >>|> geared the car for the high speeds that 0 wings would produce. In short I >>|> created the most undriveable setup imaginable and then took to the San >>|> Marino track looking for answers. >>|> What I learned was what I expected and more! The car was >>|> impossible to get through a single corner or chicane but I sailed through >>|> Tamburello and the following curve (Villeneuve) at well over 200 mph on >>|> the first try without so much as a hiccup. To me this absolves Senna from >>|> having made a driving error. F1GP tracks are precisely like the real thing >>|> in shape so even if the car dynamics are not totally realistic and there >>|> are no bumps it still prooves that Tamburello is essentially a straight. >>|> It certainly feels like one when running F1GP. It's the easiest part of >>|> the entire track. I can not believe the allegations that an error there >>|> would even matter. You can take any line you like through it. It really >>|> doesn't matter what you do short of purposely steering onto the grass or >>|> just letting go of the joystick. >>|> I rest my case. :) >>|> >>|> >>|> -- >>|> Max Behara >>|> Molly: "DS+MC" Bt+W C 1.3 X+++ L W- C+ I+++ T+ H+ S+ V+ P- E- A+ >>|> "The Net interprets censorship as damage and routes around it." - John Gilmore >>|> Ayrton Senna (1960-1994) Roland Ratzenberger (1962-1994) >>Are you kidding me? ARE YOU KIDDING ME??!! You expect a pc entertianment game to simulate the conditions of actually negotiating Tamburello at 180mph? Do you really think that F1GP simulates the actual bumps, exhaust-blown diffuser effect (which would come into play if, indeed, Senna did lift, as P. Head suggests), fuel load (bottoming out), and myrad other subtle, yet important dynamic effects? >>Granted, F1GP is great fun, but lets stay realistic here. I mean, it is possible to win races at most venues in the amaetur (sp?) (steering, braking assist) setting with the default car. >I think if you take a close look you will notice that the real San Marino GP and the F1GP game run the Imola track in opposite directions. In the real thing Tamburello is left hander and in the game it is a right hander and since Tamburrelo is NOT a constant radius turn (it's close but not close enough to call it one) this sor'ta makes any comparisons pointless.

This is not correct. F1GP simulates the Tamburello turn quite accurately and it is indeed a left hander as on the real circuit. I think you are mistaking one of the other turns in the game to be tumburello. That is the Rettiflio turn in the game which comes following the tamburello turn and does turn right. By the way I tried a setup in Imola that gave me a lot of problems on 6th gear rush down to Tosa. The car just totally gets out of control if make sudden movements on the wheel (virtual pilot yoke). I had wing settings of 53/33 and break bias of 3 in the rear. The problems did not arise until I started the race. Fortunately I didn't have problems clearing tamuburello but if I jerked the wheel sharpely right at Rettiflio that did it I flew of the track towards the wall near Tosa. Maybe someone else should try it too. Later... Anand

Look again. Tamburello is a left hander in WC. If you can't get that right then I don't think anything else you wrote is valid either. -- Max Behara Molly: "DS+MC" Bt+W C 1.3 X+++ L W- C+ I+++ T+ H+ S+ V+ P- E- A+ "The Net interprets censorship as damage and routes around it." - John Gilmore Ayrton Senna (1960-1994) Roland Ratzenberger (1962-1994)

I usually have settings of:- Front wing - 36 Rear wing - 32 Brake Bias - 4 forward Gear ratios to give good acceleration and HUGE speed on the Tamburello (about 64:64). I can just top 200mph, if I get the chicane right. 8-] (the need for speed)..... With the set-up you describe, you can`t get that much speed along the `straight', although it must be great through the chicanes though...8-]. I use keys, traction on or off, standard steering, no auto gears, brakes, and I can beat the Portuguese lap record by 2.5+ secs in Qualifying. -- * Regards to all, 8-] * * Gareth Roberts, BEng Mech Eng, Coventry Uni.,England.* * Disclaimer:- I`m me, they aren`t. *

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>Path: >dragon.acadiau.ca!nstn.ns.ca!newsflash.concordia.ca!utcsri!utnut!cs.utexas.edu!h >owland.reston.ans.net!pipex!sunic!EU.net!uunet!promus.com!promus.com!not-for-mai >l >Newsgroups: rec.autos.simulators >Subject: Re: F1GP Senna & Tamburello. Driver Error? >Date: 21 May 1994 13:10:11 -0500 >Organization: Promus Companies, Inc., Memphis, TN >Lines: 37 >NNTP-Posting-Host: stargate.promus.com >>|> I tried a little experiment to see how dangerous Tamburello really >>|> is. I ran F1GP with steering and traction help off. (I use a joystick) I >>|> put on 0 wings front and rear. I put on the slipperiest tires (A). I >>|> geared the car for the high speeds that 0 wings would produce. In short I >>|> created the most undriveable setup imaginable and then took to the San >>|> Marino track looking for answers. >>|> What I learned was what I expected and more! The car was >>|> impossible to get through a single corner or chicane but I sailed through >>|> Tamburello and the following curve (Villeneuve) at well over 200 mph on >>|> the first try without so much as a hiccup. To me this absolves Senna from >>|> having made a driving error. F1GP tracks are precisely like the real thing >>|> in shape so even if the car dynamics are not totally realistic and there >>|> are no bumps it still prooves that Tamburello is essentially a straight. >>|> It certainly feels like one when running F1GP. It's the easiest part of >>|> the entire track. I can not believe the allegations that an error there >>|> would even matter. You can take any line you like through it. It really >>|> doesn't matter what you do short of purposely steering onto the grass or >>|> just letting go of the joystick. >>|> I rest my case. :) >>|> >>|> >>|> -- >>|> Max Behara >>|> Molly: "DS+MC" Bt+W C 1.3 X+++ L W- C+ I+++ T+ H+ S+ V+ P- E- A+ >>|> "The Net interprets censorship as damage and routes around it." - John >Gilmore >>|> Ayrton Senna (1960-1994) Roland Ratzenberger (1962-1994) >>Are you kidding me? ARE YOU KIDDING ME??!! You expect a pc entertianment game >to simulate the conditions of actually negotiating Tamburello at 180mph? Do you >really think that F1GP simulates the actual bumps, exhaust-blown diffuser effect >(which would come into play if, indeed, Senna did lift, as P. Head suggests), >fuel load (bottoming out), and myrad other subtle, yet important dynamic >effects? >>Granted, F1GP is great fun, but lets stay realistic here. I mean, it is >possible to win races at most venues in the amaetur (sp?) (steering, braking >assist) setting with the default car. >I think if you take a close look you will notice that the real San Marino GP and >the F1GP game run the Imola track in opposite directions. In the real thing >Tamburello is left hander and in the game it is a right hander and since >Tamburrelo is NOT a constant radius turn (it's close but not close enough to >call it one) this sor'ta makes any comparisons pointless.

I completely agree. You would have to be rediculous to even think about making a comparison like this! The Caminator

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>>Path: >>dragon.acadiau.ca!nstn.ns.ca!newsflash.concordia.ca!utcsri!utnut!cs.utexas.edu!h >>owland.reston.ans.net!pipex!sunic!EU.net!uunet!promus.com!promus.com!not-for-mai >>l >>Newsgroups: rec.autos.simulators >>Subject: Re: F1GP Senna & Tamburello. Driver Error? >>Date: 21 May 1994 13:10:11 -0500 >>Organization: Promus Companies, Inc., Memphis, TN >>Lines: 37 >>NNTP-Posting-Host: stargate.promus.com >>>|> I tried a little experiment to see how dangerous Tamburello really >>>|> is. I ran F1GP with steering and traction help off. (I use a joystick) I >>>|> put on 0 wings front and rear. I put on the slipperiest tires (A). I >>>|> geared the car for the high speeds that 0 wings would produce. In short I >>>|> created the most undriveable setup imaginable and then took to the San >>>|> Marino track looking for answers. >>>|> What I learned was what I expected and more! The car was >>>|> impossible to get through a single corner or chicane but I sailed through >>>|> Tamburello and the following curve (Villeneuve) at well over 200 mph on >>>|> the first try without so much as a hiccup. To me this absolves Senna from >>>|> having made a driving error. F1GP tracks are precisely like the real thing >>>|> in shape so even if the car dynamics are not totally realistic and there >>>|> are no bumps it still prooves that Tamburello is essentially a straight. >>>|> It certainly feels like one when running F1GP. It's the easiest part of >>>|> the entire track. I can not believe the allegations that an error there >>>|> would even matter. You can take any line you like through it. It really >>>|> doesn't matter what you do short of purposely steering onto the grass or >>>|> just letting go of the joystick. >>>|> I rest my case. :) >>>|> >>>|> >>>|> -- >>>|> Max Behara >>>|> Molly: "DS+MC" Bt+W C 1.3 X+++ L W- C+ I+++ T+ H+ S+ V+ P- E- A+ >>>|> "The Net interprets censorship as damage and routes around it." - John >>Gilmore >>>|> Ayrton Senna (1960-1994) Roland Ratzenberger (1962-1994) >>>Are you kidding me? ARE YOU KIDDING ME??!! You expect a pc entertianment game >>to simulate the conditions of actually negotiating Tamburello at 180mph? Do you >>really think that F1GP simulates the actual bumps, exhaust-blown diffuser effect >>(which would come into play if, indeed, Senna did lift, as P. Head suggests), >>fuel load (bottoming out), and myrad other subtle, yet important dynamic >>effects? >>>Granted, F1GP is great fun, but lets stay realistic here. I mean, it is >>possible to win races at most venues in the amaetur (sp?) (steering, braking >>assist) setting with the default car. >>I think if you take a close look you will notice that the real San Marino GP and >>the F1GP game run the Imola track in opposite directions. In the real thing >>Tamburello is left hander and in the game it is a right hander and since >>Tamburrelo is NOT a constant radius turn (it's close but not close enough to >>call it one) this sor'ta makes any comparisons pointless. >I completely agree. You would have to be rediculous to even think about >making a comparison like this! >The Caminator

I don't want to be repetitive her but I posted a note just a few days ago saying this was not correct. F1GP perfectly simulates the tamburello turn. It is indeed a lefthander and not a right hander. I believe the original poster mistook Rettiflio (or Villeneuve) the right hander following Tamburello to be Tamburello. Tamburello is taken so fast that is almost is mistaken to be part of the straight in F1GP. Go back and redrive the part you will understand. Later... Anand.

I agree, also F1GP is a great simulator but thats it , ONLY a simulators plus anyway F1 (& even IC drivers) are under pressures of 3-5 g's a recent French study said F1 drivers taking clockwise corners are under pressures of 8 tonnes on the neck muscles and 5 tonnes for anti-clockwise corners. Besides even with all the features of F1GP turned off the game will still do many things for you a REAL F1 car wouldn't do. Lets face it unless so one has done some form of single seater racing round a circuit (NOT an oval) they really can't make a judgement, I know I can't judge, I like to play with all the easy bits on but It's better & certainly faster if you turn off suggested gears