Re: GPL - Full length GP at The Glen - Running out of fuel

I must object to this!!!! The Lucas mechanical injection system was a technical ecclipse of that time! I think next to all race cars used it, and it was a vast improvement over carburetted engines. The Triumph TR5 had a six cylinder, 2 liter engine with Lucas injetion (PI - Petrol Injection) producing 150 bhp in a road car in 1967 (I think it was in -67, or was it in 68?)! If the engine is in fine working order (as were the race car engines), the lucas injection system performed very well, but it was rather bad with a worn engine. I have seen triumphs do 24 mpg with Lucas injection... One quite interesting point here is that the distance between the everyday car and the ultimate F1 car was comparatively little when compared with today. After all, the Lucas injection was developed in -66 or early -67, and it found it's way into the everyday cars after a year or so! ---Asgeir--- PS: Triumphs were the less expensive alternative in the middle priced cars back then, and the TR5 was particularly popular, produced in numbers of 80 000... But they had trouble with the Lucas injection system, I must admit as much... "Matthew B. P. Knutsen" wrote:

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> Ed Bain wrote: > > > On Mon, 11 Oct 1999 08:05:28 -0700, > > in msg <[email hidden]>, > > mg <[email hidden]> said : > > > > >Lucas electrics not reliable? > > > > That's the reason than the Brits drink warm beer. They > > all have Lucas refrigerators.. :) > > > > -- > > * rrevved at mindspring dot com > > A vacuum cleaner was the only product that Lucas made that did'nt > suck.... > > Matt :-) > > -- > ---------------------- > The GPL Preservation Society > http://www.gpl.netti.nu > http://KOTR.de/gpl > > **GPLEA Member**

>So, does anybody know why it takes enough fuel for 112 laps to >complete a race of 108 laps? Anybody have similar experiences at >other tracks? I've had similar problems at the Glen. I once did a 17-lap VROC race and despite filling 18 laps worth of fuel the car began coughing at the start of the final lap. At each track, I now add a fair amount more fuel than is needed just to be sure. For example, I'm about to start a 50% distance GP Level offline championship and for the 40-lap Kyalami race I'll probably put in about 49-50 laps of fuel. -- Cheers! Graeme Nash

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] says... > Convinced that 2 nearly identical incidents weren't mechanical > breakdowns, I re-qualified & tried it again. This time, instead of > filling the tank for 109 laps ( a full GP at WG is 108 laps ), I > selected 112 laps. > If you only fill for 109 laps you're only allowing less than 1% safety margin, given that you use extra fuel in spins, avoiding incidents, unintentional wheelspin etc. The fuel estimate is just that. Mind you, I admire your stamina - I could never be bothered to do a whole GP without an ingame save to break it up. - Michael

(snip) So, does anybody know why it takes enough fuel for 112 laps to > complete a race of 108 laps?(unsnip) Yes. Very simple.....it is one or more of the following:- (a) Leaking fuel tank. (b) Faulty fuel metering unit. (Remember...these early Lucas injection units were not 100% reliable!) If so, then sack your head mechanic as he should have discovered this before now. (c) You have changed the gearing drastically and are revving to 10,000rpm in 5th. yet only travelling at 60 mph. Check the gearing! (d) You are driving with the hand-brake on. Do you smell burning brake linings? If so, check the adjustment on the hand-brake. BK mg <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> Afflicted with GPL madness, I've been running some full length GP's > offline. Monza & Silverstone were completed without any problems > with fuel. > > However, Watkins Glen has been another story. > > After repeated spin outs, shunts & race resets, I was finally able to > gain the lead in one of these GP's, due to Clark & Hill dropping out. > On the *last* lap, heading for The Loop, my Lotus began sputtering. > I was so rattled, I lost it & veered off the course, thinking I had > suffered a mechanical snafu. > > Not wanting to go through another qualifying session, I retired & > tried it again the next evening. This time, running 2nd, the Lotus > once again began sputtering on the last lap. This time, the dreaded > misfire began just short of the Big Bend. Thinking I might get a > "no fuel" listing, I finsished the race, sputtered around a cool down > lap & headed for the pits. Upon entering the pits, the engine died. > > The race listing simply listed me as 2nd. > > Convinced that 2 nearly identical incidents weren't mechanical > breakdowns, I re-qualified & tried it again. This time, instead of > filling the tank for 109 laps ( a full GP at WG is 108 laps ), I > selected 112 laps. > > After several more attempts & resets, I finally headed towards the end > of a race. After Clark dropped out, I was leading with Hill lurking > about 10 secs behind. With 5 laps to go, Hill had fallen to 15 secs > back so I babied the Lotus home. Crossed the finish line, completed a > cool down lap & headed for the pits, without a sputter to be heard. > > So, does anybody know why it takes enough fuel for 112 laps to > complete a race of 108 laps? Anybody have similar experiences at > other tracks? > > FWIW, I'm running GPL 1.1.0.3. Could the timing bug in this patch > account for the fuel discrepancy? I've checked my lap times against a > stopwatch & couldn't discern any problems. But running out of fuel > after a couple of hours of pulse-pounding GPL action isn't good for > those afflicted with GPL madness. > > > -- > " Why bother..." - R. Crumb -

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mg wrote in message ... >Afflicted with GPL madness, I've been running some full length GP's >offline. Monza & Silverstone were completed without any problems >with fuel. ><snip> >So, does anybody know why it takes enough fuel for 112 laps to >complete a race of 108 laps? Anybody have similar experiences at >other tracks? Fuel consumption depends on driving style, also on your car setup (esp gears). The number of laps shown is only approximate, based on an "average" driving style. I always leave at least 1 "spare" lap even in rookie races; 4 or 5 laps seems a sensible "fudge factor". HTH Ian Hill, Cambridge, UK Email: [email hidden]

Edwin Solheim wrote:

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> > mg wrote: > > > Lucas electrics not reliable? My head mechanic drives a TR-3 & > >swears by Lucas. He's always right. > > Hmmm...... are we talking about the same Lucas here?? > > I mean.... Lucas - *king of the darkness*..... - reliabe?? > > Give me a break!! > <G!> > -- > All the best, > Edwin Solheim **remove spamguard in address to reply**

I just saw one of those Legends of Motor racing shows on Speedvision, and they had some British Club racing from the late 50's. At several of the tracks they had large billboards with LUCAS. Had no clue til now that that Brits raced Refrigerators. dave henrie

Ed Bain wrote:

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> On Mon, 11 Oct 1999 08:05:28 -0700, > in msg <[email hidden]>, > mg <[email hidden]> said : > > >Lucas electrics not reliable? > > That's the reason than the Brits drink warm beer. They > all have Lucas refrigerators.. :) > > -- > * rrevved at mindspring dot com

A vacuum cleaner was the only product that Lucas made that did'nt suck.... Matt :-) -- ---------------------- The GPL Preservation Society http://www.gpl.netti.nu http://KOTR.de/gpl **GPLEA Member**

mg wrote: > Lucas electrics not reliable? My head mechanic drives a TR-3 & swears > by Lucas. He's always right. Hmmm...... are we talking about the same Lucas here?? I mean.... Lucas - *king of the darkness*..... - reliabe?? Give me a break!! <G!> -- All the best, Edwin Solheim **remove spamguard in address to reply** Drop by "The Paddock - a legendary site....." for some cool GPL stuff! http://home.c2i.net/thepaddock

Ah... the pimpmobile of yours... Still no second car just in case?... -- Oliver Nikolic DP-MAX Computers http://www.dp-max.co.yu/ BeoRocket Racing Team (retired) http://www.beorocket.co.yu/ Asgeir Nesoen <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > I must object to this!!!! > > The Lucas mechanical injection system was a technical ecclipse of that > time! I think next to all race cars used it, and it was a vast > improvement over carburetted engines. > > The Triumph TR5 had a six cylinder, 2 liter engine with Lucas injetion > (PI - Petrol Injection) producing 150 bhp in a road car in 1967 (I think > it was in -67, or was it in 68?)! > > If the engine is in fine working order (as were the race car engines), > the lucas injection system performed very well, but it was rather bad > with a worn engine. I have seen triumphs do 24 mpg with Lucas > injection... > > One quite interesting point here is that the distance between the > everyday car and the ultimate F1 car was comparatively little when > compared with today. After all, the Lucas injection was developed in -66 > or early -67, and it found it's way into the everyday cars after a year > or so! > > ---Asgeir--- > PS: Triumphs were the less expensive alternative in the middle priced > cars back then, and the TR5 was particularly popular, produced in > numbers of 80 000... But they had trouble with the Lucas injection > system, I must admit as much... > >

Ooh... and don't even get me started on trying to keep dual SU carbs in sync. When I got my hands on my first Scirocco with mechanical Bosch injection, I was in heaven. It was the last great era for backyard tinkerers, and yet it was reliable and efficient. Stephen Bruce Kennewell <[email hidden]> wrote: : Kugelfischer injection (as used on the BMW 2002 series) was more reliable, : Asgeir. Slightly more reliable. A little bit, maybe.

In article <[email hidden]>, Asgeir Nesoen <[email hidden]> writes: >The Triumph TR5 had a six cylinder, 2 liter engine with Lucas injetion >(PI - Petrol Injection) producing 150 bhp in a road car in 1967 (I think >it was in -67, or was it in 68?)! That was in '67, by '68 it was no longer working. Don McCorkle Owner of a '68 Triumph T-120R

It's okay, Edwin....he's thinking of George Lucas, whose electrics are _always_ reliable! :o) Edwin Solheim <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:jBnM3.3674$[email hidden]...

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> mg wrote: > > > Lucas electrics not reliable? My head mechanic drives a TR-3 & swears > > by Lucas. He's always right. > > Hmmm...... are we talking about the same Lucas here?? > > I mean.... Lucas - *king of the darkness*..... - reliabe?? > > Give me a break!! > <G!> > > -- > All the best, > Edwin Solheim **remove spamguard in address to reply** > Drop by "The Paddock - a legendary site....." for some cool GPL stuff! > http://home.c2i.net/thepaddock > > > >

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Kugelfischer injection (as used on the BMW 2002 series) was more reliable, Asgeir. Slightly more reliable. A little bit, maybe. Asgeir Nesoen <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> I must object to this!!!! > > The Lucas mechanical injection system was a technical ecclipse of that > time! I think next to all race cars used it, and it was a vast > improvement over carburetted engines. > > The Triumph TR5 had a six cylinder, 2 liter engine with Lucas injetion > (PI - Petrol Injection) producing 150 bhp in a road car in 1967 (I think > it was in -67, or was it in 68?)! > > If the engine is in fine working order (as were the race car engines), > the lucas injection system performed very well, but it was rather bad > with a worn engine. I have seen triumphs do 24 mpg with Lucas > injection... > > One quite interesting point here is that the distance between the > everyday car and the ultimate F1 car was comparatively little when > compared with today. After all, the Lucas injection was developed in -66 > or early -67, and it found it's way into the everyday cars after a year > or so! > > ---Asgeir--- > PS: Triumphs were the less expensive alternative in the middle priced > cars back then, and the TR5 was particularly popular, produced in > numbers of 80 000... But they had trouble with the Lucas injection > system, I must admit as much... > > "Matthew B. P. Knutsen" wrote: > > > Ed Bain wrote: > > > > > On Mon, 11 Oct 1999 08:05:28 -0700, > > > in msg <[email hidden]>, > > > mg <[email hidden]> said : > > > > > > >Lucas electrics not reliable? > > > > > > That's the reason than the Brits drink warm beer. They > > > all have Lucas refrigerators.. :) > > > > > > -- > > > * rrevved at mindspring dot com > > > > A vacuum cleaner was the only product that Lucas made that did'nt > > suck.... > > > > Matt :-) > > > > -- > > ---------------------- > > The GPL Preservation Society > > http://www.gpl.netti.nu > > http://KOTR.de/gpl > > > > **GPLEA Member** >

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all I know is that the lucas electrics on my '60 austin cambridge weren't the embodiment of reliable..... speedracer cambridge (50 hp, 3200 pounds - or something like that) sound like fun? Bruce Kennewell <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> Kugelfischer injection (as used on the BMW 2002 series) was more reliable, > Asgeir. Slightly more reliable. A little bit, maybe. > > > Asgeir Nesoen <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > I must object to this!!!! > > > > The Lucas mechanical injection system was a technical ecclipse of that > > time! I think next to all race cars used it, and it was a vast > > improvement over carburetted engines. > > > > The Triumph TR5 had a six cylinder, 2 liter engine with Lucas injetion > > (PI - Petrol Injection) producing 150 bhp in a road car in 1967 (I think > > it was in -67, or was it in 68?)! > > > > If the engine is in fine working order (as were the race car engines), > > the lucas injection system performed very well, but it was rather bad > > with a worn engine. I have seen triumphs do 24 mpg with Lucas > > injection... > > > > One quite interesting point here is that the distance between the > > everyday car and the ultimate F1 car was comparatively little when > > compared with today. After all, the Lucas injection was developed in -66 > > or early -67, and it found it's way into the everyday cars after a year > > or so! > > > > ---Asgeir--- > > PS: Triumphs were the less expensive alternative in the middle priced > > cars back then, and the TR5 was particularly popular, produced in > > numbers of 80 000... But they had trouble with the Lucas injection > > system, I must admit as much... > > > > "Matthew B. P. Knutsen" wrote: > > > > > Ed Bain wrote: > > > > > > > On Mon, 11 Oct 1999 08:05:28 -0700, > > > > in msg <[email hidden]>, > > > > mg <[email hidden]> said : > > > > > > > > >Lucas electrics not reliable? > > > > > > > > That's the reason than the Brits drink warm beer. They > > > > all have Lucas refrigerators.. :) > > > > > > > > -- > > > > * rrevved at mindspring dot com > > > > > > A vacuum cleaner was the only product that Lucas made that did'nt > > > suck.... > > > > > > Matt :-) > > > > > > -- > > > ---------------------- > > > The GPL Preservation Society > > > http://www.gpl.netti.nu > > > http://KOTR.de/gpl > > > > > > **GPLEA Member** > > > > > > > -----------== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News

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At least British garbage men have no trouble wheeling our bins down the winding garden path. Detroit dustbins on the other hand do not go round corners! Mark Ed Bain <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> On Mon, 11 Oct 1999 08:05:28 -0700, > in msg <[email hidden]>, > mg <[email hidden]> said : > > >Lucas electrics not reliable? > > That's the reason than the Brits drink warm beer. They > all have Lucas refrigerators.. :) > > -- > * rrevved at mindspring dot com

And racing refrigerators ensured that the race results were not half-baked with full course yellows <G> Mark Had no clue til now > that that Brits raced Refrigerators. > dave henrie

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] (Ed Bain) writes:

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>>Don McCorkle >>Owner of a '68 Triumph T-120R > >Listen to this one.. I had a Lotus Eleven with a Coventry Climax F2 engine >that I raced in SCCA in the late 60's early 70's. The day I got it, I began >ripping all Lucas stuff off of it. The only Lucas items still on the car were > >the starter and a bakelite fusebox which was mounted on the instrument >panel. The race car had no fan, the distributor/coil was replaced by a >Joe Hunt Scintilla Vertex Magneto. The fuel pump was replaced by an >AC Delco (Corvette) electric, etc. Even the Lucas tail lights were replaced >by some clearance lights from an auto supply store. The headlights had >long since been removed and covered and all instruments were either >Smith mechanical, or replaced with Sun stuff. I rewired the entire car, >with good ole US of A wire ridding it of every vestige of Lucas equipment. >I rebuilt the starter with British (?lucas?) components and I thought I >was all set to go racing. > >In the 2nd or 3rd race I was in, with the car, I was running 5th or >something at Indianapolis Raceway Park (the road course), and I had >about 6 or 8 laps to go and a -good- shot at my first ever podium finish. >BLAMMO, the car just sputtered to a halt. I thought it was fuel or something. > >I got the damn thing off the track and luckily avoided death. I could >crank the engine, but it wouldn't start. They waited until after the event >and towed us back to the paddock. We looked hard and couldn't >see what was up. All we knew was that we weren't getting spark from >the Swiss-made/California modified magneto. > >It was getting dark, so we said to hell with it, and got it back on >the trailer and headed back to Nashville. The next afternoon we were >checking it out and there it was. The F***ING LUCAS bakelite fuse >holder had hairline cracked of it's own accord, and 2 or 3 of the >fuses were broken in the process. No power to the magneto.......

Yikes, sounds just like my Triumph! It's completely chopped, custom frame, hardtail with a girder front end. Hand wired with a battery eliminator, headlight, tailight, and brake light. No switches except for the brake light. Joe Hunt magneto without a kill switch. Dopey bike thinks it's running right now. The only Lucas left is the generator, and guess what? A big ass magnet bolted to the flywheel with a two wire coil around it, couldn't be simpler. Yup, constant problems with it, and it's behind an engine casing.. Don McCorkle Drive as if you stole it Libertarian Motorsports

NOW we're talking about Lucas - *king of the darkness*!! :))) -- All the best, Edwin Solheim **remove spamguard in address to reply** Drop by "The Paddock - a legendary site....." for some cool GPL stuff! http://home.c2i.net/thepaddock Woodie 83 wrote: > > >>Don McCorkle > >>Owner of a '68 Triumph T-120R > > > >Listen to this one.. I had a Lotus Eleven with a Coventry Climax F2 engine > >that I raced in SCCA in the late 60's early 70's. The day I got it, I began > >ripping all Lucas stuff off of it. The only Lucas items still on the car were > > > >the starter and a bakelite fusebox which was mounted on the instrument > >panel. The race car had no fan, the distributor/coil was replaced by a > >Joe Hunt Scintilla Vertex Magneto. The fuel pump was replaced by an > >AC Delco (Corvette) electric, etc. Even the Lucas tail lights were replaced > >by some clearance lights from an auto supply store. The headlights had > >long since been removed and covered and all instruments were either > >Smith mechanical, or replaced with Sun stuff. I rewired the entire car, > >with good ole US of A wire ridding it of every vestige of Lucas equipment. > >I rebuilt the starter with British (?lucas?) components and I thought I > >was all set to go racing. > > > >In the 2nd or 3rd race I was in, with the car, I was running 5th or > >something at Indianapolis Raceway Park (the road course), and I had > >about 6 or 8 laps to go and a -good- shot at my first ever podium finish. > >BLAMMO, the car just sputtered to a halt. I thought it was fuel or something. > > > >I got the damn thing off the track and luckily avoided death. I could > >crank the engine, but it wouldn't start. They waited until after the event > >and towed us back to the paddock. We looked hard and couldn't > >see what was up. All we knew was that we weren't getting spark from > >the Swiss-made/California modified magneto. > > > >It was getting dark, so we said to hell with it, and got it back on > >the trailer and headed back to Nashville. The next afternoon we were > >checking it out and there it was. The F***ING LUCAS bakelite fuse > >holder had hairline cracked of it's own accord, and 2 or 3 of the > >fuses were broken in the process. No power to the magneto....... > > Yikes, sounds just like my Triumph! It's completely chopped, custom frame, > hardtail with a girder front end. Hand wired with a battery eliminator, > headlight, tailight, and brake light. No switches except for the brake light. > Joe Hunt magneto without a kill switch. Dopey bike thinks it's running right > now. The only Lucas left is the generator, and guess what? A big ass magnet > bolted to the flywheel with a two wire coil around it, couldn't be simpler. > Yup, constant problems with it, and it's behind an engine casing.. > > > Don McCorkle > Drive as if you stole it > Libertarian Motorsports >

In article <[email hidden]>, Graeme Nash <[email hidden]> writes

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> >>So, does anybody know why it takes enough fuel for 112 laps to >>complete a race of 108 laps? Anybody have similar experiences at >>other tracks? > >I've had similar problems at the Glen. I once did a 17-lap VROC race and >despite filling 18 laps worth of fuel the car began coughing at the >start of the final lap. > >At each track, I now add a fair amount more fuel than is needed just to >be sure. For example, I'm about to start a 50% distance GP Level offline >championship and for the 40-lap Kyalami race I'll probably put in about >49-50 laps of fuel. > >--

Wow! Are you serious? I race full length, offline races against the AI and can finish quite easily and cruise into the pits at the end with 82 laps of fuel. I race in the Lotus and am easily fast enough to win, having done so for the first time recently. Hey, maybe some cars have more of an affect on fuel consumption than others. -- Peter Ives

Just out of interest I have had no problems with running out of fuel in races. I put in enough fuel for 2 more laps (1.5 laps on Spa, Nurburgring), and haven't even suffered any spluttering. Of course, some full-length races (GP's) I haven't made the finish... :)) -- Rob. Graeme Nash wrote in message ... > >>So, does anybody know why it takes enough fuel for 112 laps to >>complete a race of 108 laps? Anybody have similar experiences at >>other tracks? > >I've had similar problems at the Glen. I once did a 17-lap VROC race and >despite filling 18 laps worth of fuel the car began coughing at the >start of the final lap. > >At each track, I now add a fair amount more fuel than is needed just to >be sure. For example, I'm about to start a 50% distance GP Level offline >championship and for the 40-lap Kyalami race I'll probably put in about >49-50 laps of fuel. > >-- >Cheers! >Graeme Nash

It's coz you drive too fast! Simply throttle back, take it easy and you could probably use a few laps' worth less fuel, increasing performace through having a lighter car. MM

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> Graeme Nash wrote in message ... > > > >>So, does anybody know why it takes enough fuel for 112 laps to > >>complete a race of 108 laps? Anybody have similar experiences at > >>other tracks? > > > >I've had similar problems at the Glen. I once did a 17-lap VROC race and > >despite filling 18 laps worth of fuel the car began coughing at the > >start of the final lap. > > > >At each track, I now add a fair amount more fuel than is needed just to > >be sure. For example, I'm about to start a 50% distance GP Level offline > >championship and for the 40-lap Kyalami race I'll probably put in about > >49-50 laps of fuel. > > > >-- > >Cheers! > >Graeme Nash > >

<snip> I was attempting sarcasm. It was late, I was drunk, it didn't work well. Ne'er mind. MM

Yep :-) I am very *** the car when driving, I use a lot of fuel and overheat the tyres inside 10 laps... I guess I should calm down but for some reason whenever I do that I fall off the road! :-) -- Cheers! Graeme Nash