Re: Anyone remember FF with HardDrivin arcade game?

Hi Doug! I knew we were about to hear from you again :) Doug Milliken wrote in message ... > >For me, there is no comparison at all. Hard Drivin' & Race Drivin' >actually run fast enough to be "realtime". GPL combined with the Logitech or ACT Labs wheel on a USB port is great. Have you tried either of these combinations yet? HD and RD are definitely still ahead of PC technology at the moment, but I think PC wheels are catching up quickly. >AFAIK, all the new PC FF wheels run through a Windows API, which gives a >noticable (and variable) lag between car motion and steering force. The lag is very low now with serial, or especially USB connections to the wheel. It really isn't an issue for me at this point. >Some of >the PC FF wheels also have: > -- a lot of friction/stiction > -- notchy-ness in the motion (gear drive) In the ACT Labs wheel, ALL the stiction and notchiness is caused by the motor. This was surprising to me, but the gear and belt drive system is extremely smooth. The problem is with the motor, and the magnetic forces on the shaft. If a better motor, with well- balanced magnets, were placed in the current wheel it would eliminate almost all problems with notchiness/stiction. > -- tiny steering wheel to give more force at the rim > (compensate for low motor torque) The size is appropriate for use in front of a computer :) >I'm not about to sell my Race Drivin' yet (although it uses waaay too >much floor space and I'd like to have the space back). I would love to have one but don't have the room. Maybe in my next house - let me know if you change your mind on selling yours! -- Pat Dotson

On Sun, 17 Oct 1999, Lutrell wrote: <interesting comments snipped> > So if anyone that has tried new FF wheels and remembers how the > HardDrivin game FF effect were, how do you compare them? For me, there is no comparison at all. Hard Drivin' & Race Drivin' actually run fast enough to be "realtime". The FF motor (on the sit-down cabinet versions) is direct drive (no gearing), and it is a huge motor compared to the motors in any of the home wheels, so the force at the rim of a normal sized steering wheel is adequate. AFAIK, all the new PC FF wheels run through a Windows API, which gives a noticable (and variable) lag between car motion and steering force. Some of the PC FF wheels also have: -- a lot of friction/stiction -- notchy-ness in the motion (gear drive) -- tiny steering wheel to give more force at the rim (compensate for low motor torque) Windows (any version) probably isn't the right OS for realtime...at least not yet. I'm not about to sell my Race Drivin' yet (although it uses waaay too much floor space and I'd like to have the space back). -- Doug Douglas Milliken <[email hidden]> Milliken Research Associates Inc.

[email hidden] (Ed Bain) wrote: >Mine will break your wrist if you set the force high enough. If so, you should either be working out or drinking a lot of milk. Tim

I loved the feedback in Hard Drivin' by Atari. It came out in 1988 or '89. To this day it is still my fave racing sim! My best regular game lap was about 1:14, and my best championship lap was around 1:16. My best score was 527,000 if my memory is right. If I had room I would buy an old one, but I bet maintenance is hard because of all the moving parts for the steering, clutch, etc. On Sun, 17 Oct 1999 12:38:04 -0700, "Lutrell" <[email hidden]> wrote:

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>Ever since the arcade game HardDrivin came (mid 80,s ?)out with its force feedback wheel , I have been looking forward to having a >driving game with force feedback that was as good as HardDrivin. With HardDrivin you would feel more than just the shakes of off >road and crashes, the steering effort would change with the weight on the front wheels and tire grip. Driving a race car has a lot >to do with weight transfer and can be felt through g-forces or through steering wheel feedback or effort of steering. HardDrivin >would change from a light wheel when hard acceleration to hard steering when braking. In a turn if the car understeers, the steering >would get very light and you could modulate the throttle to where you felt the tires regain grip as the steering got harder. You did >not have to wait to see the car understeer, you could feel it through the steering effort. I thought HardDrivin simulated actual >steering feel very well. >Well when the first PC force feedback games and wheels came out, they were just with the simple jerks and rumble from road surface >and crashing and no real feel of car handling. I also read that real handling feel for PC games and FF wheels could not be done >correctly with affordable hardware. Now I read a lot of argument of the current games and FF wheels and how realistic they feel >verses some who say they are not really that good for actual car feel. I also spent a lot of time making my own analog wheel and >pedals (I would say quality almost as good a EECI wheel) so I am hesitant to run out and buy a new FF wheel. >So if anyone that has tried new FF wheels and remembers how the HardDrivin game FF effect were, how do you compare them? > >Lutrell :-) > >DSR # 74 >http://insideracingtechnology.com/dsr1.htm > > > >

I remember Hard Drivin (and it's sequel, Race Drivin) and nothing I've seen in PC Force-Feedback can compare to this MOST excellent Arcade Game... I would love to have one of these in my living room :) -Larry Lutrell <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:YxpO3.1541$[email hidden]... > Ever since the arcade game HardDrivin came (mid 80,s ?)out with its forcefeedback wheel , I have been looking forward to having a > driving game with force feedback that was as good as HardDrivin. WithHardDrivin you would feel more than just the shakes of off > road and crashes, the steering effort would change with the weight on thefront wheels and tire grip. Driving a race car has a lot > to do with weight transfer and can be felt through g-forces or throughsteering wheel feedback or effort of steering. HardDrivin > would change from a light wheel when hard acceleration to hard steeringwhen braking. In a turn if the car understeers, the steering > would get very light and you could modulate the throttle to where you feltthe tires regain grip as the steering got harder. You did > not have to wait to see the car understeer, you could feel it through thesteering effort. I thought HardDrivin simulated actual > steering feel very well. > Well when the first PC force feedback games and wheels came out, they werejust with the simple jerks and rumble from road surface > and crashing and no real feel of car handling. I also read that realhandling feel for PC games and FF wheels could not be done > correctly with affordable hardware. Now I read a lot of argument of thecurrent games and FF wheels and how realistic they feel > verses some who say they are not really that good for actual car feel. Ialso spent a lot of time making my own analog wheel and > pedals (I would say quality almost as good a EECI wheel) so I am hesitantto run out and buy a new FF wheel. > So if anyone that has tried new FF wheels and remembers how the HardDrivingame FF effect were, how do you compare them?

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> > Lutrell :-) > > DSR # 74 > http://insideracingtechnology.com/dsr1.htm > > > >

I remember Hard Drivin (and it's sequel, Race Drivin) and nothing I've seen in PC Force-Feedback can compare to this MOST excellent Arcade Game... I would love to have one of these in my living room :) -Larry feedback wheel , I have been looking forward to having a HardDrivin you would feel more than just the shakes of off front wheels and tire grip. Driving a race car has a lot steering wheel feedback or effort of steering. HardDrivin when braking. In a turn if the car understeers, the steering the tires regain grip as the steering got harder. You did steering effort. I thought HardDrivin simulated actual just with the simple jerks and rumble from road surface handling feel for PC games and FF wheels could not be done current games and FF wheels and how realistic they feel also spent a lot of time making my own analog wheel and to run out and buy a new FF wheel. game FF effect were, how do you compare them?

In article <[email hidden]>, Tim (fusion1) <[email hidden]> writes >[email hidden] (Ed Bain) wrote: > >>Mine will break your wrist if you set the force high enough. > >If so, you should either be working out or drinking a lot of milk. > Yeah, but even if he's exaggerating a little, this still sounds better than most of these wimpy models - I want one. 8-) -- Peter Ives

On Wed, 20 Oct 1999 05:13:59 GMT, Doug Milliken >Here is one test for lag you might try, by running a simple frequency >response test -- I haven't got all the hardware to try different >combinations, etc. Read it through a few times, I tried to cover all the >bases but it's a little tricky to explain... [snip] Are you saying that the steering wheel is eventually wobbling by itself? Like with your hands off?

Ah, I knew this wouldn't be properly explained, sorry... I meant that you have to force the wheel (with your hands) to steer back and forth. I'm trying to get at the motion of the wheel vs the motion of the car. Alternatively you can also look at the motion of the steering wheel shown on the screen (if there is one shown) and find the natural frequency for the wheel display.. If the steering wheel oscillates back and forth on it's own, that's a different problem -- not likely to be found in race cars, but some production cars with heavy steering wheels will do this. Years ago, there was a USA-built car called the Dodge Omni (based on VW Rabbit/Golf) that got in trouble with "Consumer Reports" magazine because it had this type of "hands-off" oscillation above some speed. I think that the original Suzuki Samuri that was brought into the USA would also do this. -- Doug Milliken

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> On Wed, 20 Oct 1999 05:13:59 GMT, Doug Milliken > >Here is one test for lag you might try, by running a simple frequency > >response test -- I haven't got all the hardware to try different > >combinations, etc. Read it through a few times, I tried to cover all the > >bases but it's a little tricky to explain... > [snip] > Are you saying that the steering wheel is eventually wobbling by > itself? Like with your hands off?

I know that if I let go in GPL...my MSFF starts wobbling from side to side BADLY...at maybe 4/5 hz Doug

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> Ah, I knew this wouldn't be properly explained, sorry... > I meant that you have to force the wheel (with your hands) to steer > back and forth. I'm trying to get at the motion of the wheel vs the motion > of the car. Alternatively you can also look at the motion of the steering > wheel shown on the screen (if there is one shown) and find the natural > frequency for the wheel display.. > If the steering wheel oscillates back and forth on it's own, that's a > different problem -- not likely to be found in race cars, but some > production cars with heavy steering wheels will do this. Years ago, there > was a USA-built car called the Dodge Omni (based on VW Rabbit/Golf) that > got in trouble with "Consumer Reports" magazine because it had this type of > "hands-off" oscillation above some speed. I think that the original Suzuki > Samuri that was brought into the USA would also do this. > -- Doug Milliken > > On Wed, 20 Oct 1999 05:13:59 GMT, Doug Milliken > > >Here is one test for lag you might try, by running a simple frequency > > >response test -- I haven't got all the hardware to try different > > >combinations, etc. Read it through a few times, I tried to cover all the > > >bases but it's a little tricky to explain... > > [snip] > > Are you saying that the steering wheel is eventually wobbling by > > itself? Like with your hands off?

> I know that if I let go in GPL...my MSFF starts wobbling from side to > side BADLY...at maybe 4/5 hz Good -- someone posting some real data! Thank you. Now, a further question: is this related in any way to the speed of the simulated car that you are driving? In real cars, this type of "free control" (hands-off the wheel) oscillation only happens above some critical speed. -- Doug Milliken

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> > Ah, I knew this wouldn't be properly explained, sorry... > > I meant that you have to force the wheel (with your hands) to steer > > back and forth. I'm trying to get at the motion of the wheel vs the motion > > of the car. Alternatively you can also look at the motion of the steering > > wheel shown on the screen (if there is one shown) and find the natural > > frequency for the wheel display.. > > If the steering wheel oscillates back and forth on it's own, that's a > > different problem -- not likely to be found in race cars, but some > > production cars with heavy steering wheels will do this. Years ago, there > > was a USA-built car called the Dodge Omni (based on VW Rabbit/Golf) that > > got in trouble with "Consumer Reports" magazine because it had this type of > > "hands-off" oscillation above some speed. I think that the original Suzuki > > Samuri that was brought into the USA would also do this. > > -- Doug Milliken > > > On Wed, 20 Oct 1999 05:13:59 GMT, Doug Milliken > > > >Here is one test for lag you might try, by running a simple frequency > > > >response test -- I haven't got all the hardware to try different > > > >combinations, etc. Read it through a few times, I tried to cover all the > > > >bases but it's a little tricky to explain... > > > [snip] > > > Are you saying that the steering wheel is eventually wobbling by > > > itself? Like with your hands off?

Hi Doug, Sorry for the delay, I had to go out of state unexpectedly. GPL with USB ACT Labs wheel at 55 mph oscillates from side to side at 2.5/3 of phase at all. When I let go of the wheel, the oscillations die out after 2 or three cycles, and the steering goes back to center. One question - how can any human turn a wheel side to side at 7 Hz? Seems impossible to me. I can't move my hands that fast with nothing in them! Maybe I was using too much steering input during my test? I can record a replay if that would help.

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>> >AFAIK, all the new PC FF wheels run through a Windows API, which gives a >> >noticable (and variable) lag between car motion and steering force. >> The lag is very low now with serial, or especially USB connections to >> the wheel. It really isn't an issue for me at this point. >Hi Pat and all, >Here is one test for lag you might try, by running a simple frequency >response test -- I haven't got all the hardware to try different >combinations, etc. Read it through a few times, I tried to cover all the >bases but it's a little tricky to explain... >When driving straight ahead at some moderate speed (say 50-60 mph), turn >the wheel back and forth in an approximate sine wave motion. Kind of like >race drivers do when they are trying to warm the tires behind a pace car, >but much less steering wheel angle. The idea is to keep the amplitude >small enough that you stay in the linear range of the car tires, so there >is no question of the car sliding around or getting loose. >Now speed up the sine wave motion and watch the reaction of the car (and/or >the steering wheel in the car). At some point the motion that you see on >the screen will be about 180 degrees out of phase -- the car (or picture of >the steering wheel) will still be going left while you are turning the >wheel to the right. >Time several reversals of the wheel with a stop watch and determine the >cycles/second (Hz) of the sine wave at the 180 degree point. This is about >the natural frequency of the car in yaw (rotation about a vertical axis) >and it should be related only to the response of the car (without any >additional lag from the steering wheel interface). >You can also do this in a regular car (don't try it with passengers, they >will think you have lost it...!!). There are usually two natural >frequencies on passenger cars, the roll frequency is low, maybe 1 Hz, >ignore this one, it's just confusing the picture. >The yaw frequency for smaller passenger cars is in the 2 Hz range, light >race cars with big tires might be 6 Hz or more (I recall hearing about one >F1 car from some years ago where the data channels all had 7 Hz >oscillations superimposed on the car motions.) >I just tried it with 2 different cars in "Race Drivin'", the red car (auto >trans) was about 2.5 Hz, the other (the little Miata-like car) was a little >over 3 Hz. I started a stop watch, then got the steering wheel oscillating >at the right frequency (at a constant 55 mph on a straight road) and then >counted steering cycles (right/left/back-to-right) for 10 seconds. >Please post your results -- include your hardware and software config, >and what game you are running. >I look forward to being proved wrong, but the little exposure to >PC wheels that I've had makes me feel pretty safe... >-- Doug Milliken

> GPL with USB ACT Labs wheel at 55 mph oscillates from side to side at 2.5/3 > of phase at all. > When I let go of the wheel, the oscillations die out after 2 or three > cycles, and the steering goes back to center. Wow, more data, thanks! This seems pretty good, I may have to change my position on PC FF in the near future. As a wild guess, I'd say that those 60's F1 cars on "medium" width tires might have been ~4 Hz. The sports cars that are modeled in the old Atari Race Drivin' are probably in the 2.5/3 Hz range so they were "easier" to model, in that sense. I'd think that the damping (cycles to damp out after you let go) would be better in a real F1 car, but 2-3 cycles isn't completely terrible. Sorry for more confusion -- the "yaw natural frequency" is a property of the car, not the driver. I can't move a wheel at 7 Hz either, so this simple test can't be done manually for a car with really quick linear range yaw response. -- Doug Milliken

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> >> >AFAIK, all the new PC FF wheels run through a Windows API, which gives a > >> >noticable (and variable) lag between car motion and steering force. > >> The lag is very low now with serial, or especially USB connections to > >> the wheel. It really isn't an issue for me at this point. > >Hi Pat and all, > >Here is one test for lag you might try, by running a simple frequency > >response test -- I haven't got all the hardware to try different > >combinations, etc. Read it through a few times, I tried to cover all the > >bases but it's a little tricky to explain... > >When driving straight ahead at some moderate speed (say 50-60 mph), turn > >the wheel back and forth in an approximate sine wave motion. Kind of like > >race drivers do when they are trying to warm the tires behind a pace car, > >but much less steering wheel angle. The idea is to keep the amplitude > >small enough that you stay in the linear range of the car tires, so there > >is no question of the car sliding around or getting loose. > >Now speed up the sine wave motion and watch the reaction of the car (and/or > >the steering wheel in the car). At some point the motion that you see on > >the screen will be about 180 degrees out of phase -- the car (or picture of > >the steering wheel) will still be going left while you are turning the > >wheel to the right. > >Time several reversals of the wheel with a stop watch and determine the > >cycles/second (Hz) of the sine wave at the 180 degree point. This is about > >the natural frequency of the car in yaw (rotation about a vertical axis) > >and it should be related only to the response of the car (without any > >additional lag from the steering wheel interface). > >You can also do this in a regular car (don't try it with passengers, they > >will think you have lost it...!!). There are usually two natural > >frequencies on passenger cars, the roll frequency is low, maybe 1 Hz, > >ignore this one, it's just confusing the picture. > >The yaw frequency for smaller passenger cars is in the 2 Hz range, light > >race cars with big tires might be 6 Hz or more (I recall hearing about one > >F1 car from some years ago where the data channels all had 7 Hz > >oscillations superimposed on the car motions.) > >I just tried it with 2 different cars in "Race Drivin'", the red car (auto > >trans) was about 2.5 Hz, the other (the little Miata-like car) was a little > >over 3 Hz. I started a stop watch, then got the steering wheel oscillating > >at the right frequency (at a constant 55 mph on a straight road) and then > >counted steering cycles (right/left/back-to-right) for 10 seconds. > >Please post your results -- include your hardware and software config, > >and what game you are running. > >I look forward to being proved wrong, but the little exposure to > >PC wheels that I've had makes me feel pretty safe... > >-- Doug Milliken

So Doug, have you tried the FF in GPL? It has a damping setting that I keep as low as possible, since it tends to mask some of the other feedback. I would imagine that cranking up the damping would make the wheel straighten out almost immediately. I might do some experimenting with it to see. I'd like to hear your impressions of GPL with a Logitech or ACT Labs wheel. -- Pat Dotson >> GPL with USB ACT Labs wheel at 55 mph oscillates from side to side at 2.5/3 out >> of phase at all. >> When I let go of the wheel, the oscillations die out after 2 or three >> cycles, and the steering goes back to center. >Wow, more data, thanks! This seems pretty good, I may have to change my >position on PC FF in the near future. As a wild guess, I'd say that those >60's F1 cars on "medium" width tires might have been ~4 Hz. The sports >cars that are modeled in the old Atari Race Drivin' are probably in the >2.5/3 Hz range so they were "easier" to model, in that sense. >I'd think that the damping (cycles to damp out after you let go) would be >better in a real F1 car, but 2-3 cycles isn't completely terrible.

I've only tried GPL with the MS-FF wheel, obviously I need to try some of the other FF choices...one of these days. -- Doug

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> So Doug, have you tried the FF in GPL? It has a damping setting that I keep > as low as possible, since it tends to mask some of the other feedback. I > would imagine that cranking up the damping would make the wheel straighten out > almost immediately. I might do some experimenting with it to see. > I'd like to hear your impressions of GPL with a Logitech or ACT Labs > wheel. > -- > Pat Dotson > >> GPL with USB ACT Labs wheel at 55 mph oscillates from side to side at > 2.5/3 > out > >> of phase at all. > >> When I let go of the wheel, the oscillations die out after 2 or three > >> cycles, and the steering goes back to center. > >Wow, more data, thanks! This seems pretty good, I may have to change my > >position on PC FF in the near future. As a wild guess, I'd say that those > >60's F1 cars on "medium" width tires might have been ~4 Hz. The sports > >cars that are modeled in the old Atari Race Drivin' are probably in the > >2.5/3 Hz range so they were "easier" to model, in that sense. > >I'd think that the damping (cycles to damp out after you let go) would be > >better in a real F1 car, but 2-3 cycles isn't completely terrible.