Re: Driving Ethics. Thanks for opinions

Steve Sarlls wrote in message ...

Quoted text (12 lines)

> I agree that in choosing the low pass that I chose to be partially >on the apron and that is not a stable place to be. I also agree that >it is the passing cars job to avoid a collision. I guess he doesn't >have to give any other cars any more room than he wants. I personally >feel that it's not a good idea to force another car to enter the turn >on the apron. On a previous lap when he was under me I had made him >go low to get the position but when we got to the corner I gave him >enough room to stay on the track and not have to enter on the apron. >Apparently some people aren't intested in returning such favors. I >appreciate y'alls opinions and will have to simply note that that >driver does not give any extra room and as such will not recieve any >from me.

Steve, I read your original post and all the replies, and here's my take on it after doing 5 years of league racing (4 online). First off, attempting a pass that is considered 'unsafe' (apron, grass, whatever) is YOUR decision, and your fault if it goes wrong. The other driver should not have to avoid you if you pull a boner. Having said that, I usually will back off, 2nd is better than last. Or give you a nose up the boot coming off 4... ;] However, one thing that no one seemed to mention is this...most leagues make it illiegal for someone to block the bottom (including the straightaways) the entire race. This is the primary difference between Talladega N1/N2/N3 and the real one. On the real one, you can get a run on the outside with some drafting help, on the sim version it is nigh impossible even with drafting help to pass someone on the outside of the turns. What you *should* have done was use the chrome horn to 'help' him through the turn on the last lap...then made the move as he slid up the track. I don't like driving/passing like this (after all, if you can boot someone out of the way to win, where is the skill?), but if he's going to hug the bottom the entire race...he deserves a 'bump'. Cheers! reply to this address jkohl@tptcc<--remove2post-->.com ��Jan Kohl�� **The Pits Performance Team** Computer Systems Programmer USAF Air-Ground Operations School Hurlburt Field, FL Castle Graphics - http://www.castlegraphics.com/ The Pits - http://www.theuspits.com/

I agree that in choosing the low pass that I chose to be partially on the apron and that is not a stable place to be. I also agree that it is the passing cars job to avoid a collision. I guess he doesn't have to give any other cars any more room than he wants. I personally feel that it's not a good idea to force another car to enter the turn on the apron. On a previous lap when he was under me I had made him go low to get the position but when we got to the corner I gave him enough room to stay on the track and not have to enter on the apron. Apparently some people aren't intested in returning such favors. I appreciate y'alls opinions and will have to simply note that that driver does not give any extra room and as such will not recieve any from me. Steve-S

My opinion is that you boys should not play together if you can't play nicely. Steve Sarlls <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

Quoted text (15 lines)

> I agree that in choosing the low pass that I chose to be partially > on the apron and that is not a stable place to be. I also agree that > it is the passing cars job to avoid a collision. I guess he doesn't > have to give any other cars any more room than he wants. I personally > feel that it's not a good idea to force another car to enter the turn > on the apron. On a previous lap when he was under me I had made him > go low to get the position but when we got to the corner I gave him > enough room to stay on the track and not have to enter on the apron. > Apparently some people aren't intested in returning such favors. I > appreciate y'alls opinions and will have to simply note that that > driver does not give any extra room and as such will not recieve any > from me. > > Steve-S >

LOL On Sun, 12 Dec 1999 22:30:02 GMT, "Todd Sorensen" <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted text (21 lines)

>My opinion is that you boys should not play together if you can't play >nicely. > >Steve Sarlls <[email hidden]> wrote in message >news:[email hidden]... >> I agree that in choosing the low pass that I chose to be partially >> on the apron and that is not a stable place to be. I also agree that >> it is the passing cars job to avoid a collision. I guess he doesn't >> have to give any other cars any more room than he wants. I personally >> feel that it's not a good idea to force another car to enter the turn >> on the apron. On a previous lap when he was under me I had made him >> go low to get the position but when we got to the corner I gave him >> enough room to stay on the track and not have to enter on the apron. >> Apparently some people aren't intested in returning such favors. I >> appreciate y'alls opinions and will have to simply note that that >> driver does not give any extra room and as such will not recieve any >> from me. >> >> Steve-S >> >

LOL

Quoted text (20 lines)

>My opinion is that you boys should not play together if you can't play >nicely. >> I agree that in choosing the low pass that I chose to be partially >> on the apron and that is not a stable place to be. I also agree that >> it is the passing cars job to avoid a collision. I guess he doesn't >> have to give any other cars any more room than he wants. I personally >> feel that it's not a good idea to force another car to enter the turn >> on the apron. On a previous lap when he was under me I had made him >> go low to get the position but when we got to the corner I gave him >> enough room to stay on the track and not have to enter on the apron. >> Apparently some people aren't intested in returning such favors. I >> appreciate y'alls opinions and will have to simply note that that >> driver does not give any extra room and as such will not recieve any >> from me. >> Steve-S

writes: Some of us have never even BEEN in leagues. How would we *know* the rules in the leagues...? Eldred -- Tiger Stadium R.I.P. 1912-1999 Own Grand Prix Legends? Goto http://gpl.gamestats.com/vroc Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

Quoted text (42 lines)

>> I agree that in choosing the low pass that I chose to be partially >>on the apron and that is not a stable place to be. I also agree that >>it is the passing cars job to avoid a collision. I guess he doesn't >>have to give any other cars any more room than he wants. I personally >>feel that it's not a good idea to force another car to enter the turn >>on the apron. On a previous lap when he was under me I had made him >>go low to get the position but when we got to the corner I gave him >>enough room to stay on the track and not have to enter on the apron. >>Apparently some people aren't intested in returning such favors. I >>appreciate y'alls opinions and will have to simply note that that >>driver does not give any extra room and as such will not recieve any >>from me. >Steve, I read your original post and all the replies, and here's my take on >it >after doing 5 years of league racing (4 online). >First off, attempting a pass that is considered 'unsafe' (apron, grass, >whatever) >is YOUR decision, and your fault if it goes wrong. The other driver should >not >have to avoid you if you pull a boner. Having said that, I usually will >back off, >2nd is better than last. Or give you a nose up the boot coming off 4... ;] >However, one thing that no one seemed to mention is this...most leagues >make it illiegal for someone to block the bottom (including the >straightaways) >the entire race. This is the primary difference between Talladega N1/N2/N3 >and the real one. On the real one, you can get a run on the outside with >some >drafting help, on the sim version it is nigh impossible even with drafting >help to >pass someone on the outside of the turns. What you *should* have done was >use >the chrome horn to 'help' him through the turn on the last lap...then made >the move >as he slid up the track. I don't like driving/passing like this (after all, >if you can boot >someone out of the way to win, where is the skill?), but if he's going to >hug the bottom >the entire race...he deserves a 'bump'.

I agree that a bonehead move is on the part of the driver. I was so mad I did not correctly remember what happened. I finally got the replay working and have posted some screen shots. http://home.austin.rr.com/dweeb1/ Let me know what you think. Steve-S PS. I most certainly will remember this drivers name for ever. Never again will I give him the respect he did not give me.

From those simple 3 screenshot, it's 50/50 both your fault. He should had went there, you shouldn't had went there. Of course there is million other reasons that could had made this happen. You have to accept that when you race over the Internet. Just say "Oh well", and pass on the next race. Especially when there's not even rankings to care for at the moment! -- -- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard> -- May the Downforce be with you... "People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

I know. That one just got under my skin a bit. It was a great race right up untill that moment. If we had not wrecked I would have considered it one of the best races I'd been in no matter where I finished. It was simply a blast. I've been in that position before on the high side and not wrecked the car down low. It's not hard to avoid. Steve-S

Quoted text (10 lines)

>> I agree that a bonehead move is on the part of the driver. I was so >> mad I did not correctly remember what happened. I finally got the >> replay working and have posted some screen shots. >> http://home.austin.rr.com/dweeb1/ >From those simple 3 screenshot, it's 50/50 both your fault. He should had >went there, you shouldn't had went there. Of course there is million other >reasons that could had made this happen. You have to accept that when you >race over the Internet. Just say "Oh well", and pass on the next race. >Especially when there's not even rankings to care for at the moment!

>Some of us have never even BEEN in leagues. How would we *know* the rules in >the leagues...? You don't. But driving the entire race blocking the driver behind you isn't racing, is it? There is nothing wrong with making it hard for someone to pass you. But if you drive the entire race by keeping your car in the way of the car behind you, they have 3 alternatives: A) Let you have the race (90% of the drivers out there, I don't think this would be very likely). so that leaves... B) Attempt a wild passing maneuver which will either succeed, or put you both in the fence. C) *MOVE* you out of the way. On the last couple of laps, nothing wrong with blocking your position. The entire race... is just asking for trouble. ??Jan Kohl?? **The Pits Performance Team** Computer Systems Programmer USAF Air-Ground Operations School Hurlburt Field, FL Castle Graphics - http://www.castlegraphics.com/ The Pits - http://www.theuspits.com/

I was leading a N3 race last night and yes I was running the "preferred line" and yes I was beat by a better driver on the last lap. You can't always win by passing on the inside.

writes: I didn't see it as 'blocking'. I see it as having the preferred groove. When someone deliberately weaves to keep a driver from passing, that's blocking. If they're in the groove, and stay there, other drivers just have to find a way around. If the fastest line just happens to be the low line, most people will stay there. With the benefit of the draft, it's easy(isn't it?) to have a high closing rate. Whereas in GPL, I can tell that someone who makes up 10 seconds on me in two laps is MUCH faster, and I'd let him by when I had the chance. I haven't run N3 online yet, so I may have a different view. I'll get back to you when I go online...<g> Eldred -- Tiger Stadium R.I.P. 1912-1999 Own Grand Prix Legends? Goto http://gpl.gamestats.com/vroc Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

I think we are having a difference in how this situation is being interpreted. It sounds to me as though we have someone running a "preferred line", as opposed to blocking. I can't imagine *any* league requiring a leader to give up the preferred line! And in this kind of situation, the "chrome horn" sounds rather aggressive, don't you think? Running the line you choose would be one of the perks you get for being the leader. -- Chuck Kandler #70 ChuckK or KS70 on Won.net K&S Racing http://www.fortunecity.com/silverstone/thepits/195 The box said "Windows 95 or better", so I installed LINUX!

> I was leading a N3 race last night and yes I was running the > "preferred line" and yes I was beat by a better driver on the last > lap. You can't always win by passing on the inside. There ya go. And some people say it can't be done............ -- Chuck Kandler #70 ChuckK or KS70 on Won.net K&S Racing http://www.fortunecity.com/silverstone/thepits/195 The box said "Windows 95 or better", so I installed LINUX!

Quoted text (7 lines)

>I think we are having a difference in how this situation is being >interpreted. It sounds to me as though we have someone running a >"preferred line", as opposed to blocking. I can't imagine *any* league >requiring a leader to give up the preferred line! And in this kind of >situation, the "chrome horn" sounds rather aggressive, don't you think? >Running the line you choose would be one of the perks you get for being >the leader.

Where the interpretation is falling short is because of the fact that Talladega doesn't model the real one correctly. Never did I say that the leagues require a leader to give up the preferred line. At all other tracks that is never a question, as a person can try going high or low to attempt the pass. However, at Talladega, since the N1 version, if the leader runs low through the corner (which is fine), but then continues down the back stretch all the way to the left, people behind the leader will most likely never get around them, because when they get to turn 3/4, the car on the outside, even with drafting help, will probably not get around them on the outside. Notice I didn't say CAN'T, I said PROBABLY. Unless the leader has a substancially faster car and some drafting help, or the lead car slips in the turn, it's pretty much a given race. The problem lies when the leader drives down to the left. Many leagues consider that blocking, and it's not allowed to drive down there until the last lap...the reason being that any cars behind the leader (probably) can't make it on the outside, and are therefore forced to take to the grass (thus a wild pass) or do a little 'rubbing' to get around the leader. Having said all that, are you going to tell me that if you ran a race at Tally, where the lead car drove around the LH side all the time, and you made repeated attempts to pass and couldn't make it stick on the outside, but couldn't go low because you would be on the grass, that you wouldn't attempt a more risky move to get past him? If so, I applaud you, you have more patience (and willingness to take 2nd) than most drivers out there. Cheers! ??Jan Kohl?? **The Pits Performance Team** Computer Systems Programmer USAF Air-Ground Operations School Hurlburt Field, FL Castle Graphics - http://www.castlegraphics.com/ The Pits - http://www.theuspits.com/

See my other message, Eldred, about this. At most tracks, the preferred line is never in question, as the car behind the leader can make attempts on the inside or outside of the corner. The problem lies with the fact that in all versions of Talladega, cars to the outside stand a very slim chance of passing a car in front if they are never given the bottom of the racetrack (meaning down the backstretch, not in the corners). Hence the reason many leagues have made it illegal to run all the way to the LH side at the backstretch of Talladega until the last few laps... Cheers! ??Jan Kohl?? **The Pits Performance Team** Computer Systems Programmer USAF Air-Ground Operations School Hurlburt Field, FL Castle Graphics - http://www.castlegraphics.com/ The Pits - http://www.theuspits.com/

With the newer sims, I find it hard to not scrub off speed if I were to stay at the bottom (LH) and try to take a corner. By doing that you may block the preferred line, but you should lose a couple MPH allowing the outside person a chance to pass. Most people have to take some kind of right to left angle into Tally's corners to maintain momentum. Tim.