Re: Broadcast VROC GPL Races??

I think more than 50% of GPL-interested people are from Europe. So I don't think that can be neglected. > hehe.. oops. I'd assume that 90% of the viewers/listeners would be > from the states. The Europeans? hmm, There may be a market there but > not knowing anything about them I wont say. > > Sorry for the boo-boo

>Sorry for the boo-boo <grin> just make sure it doesn't happen again :-) -- Cheers! Graeme Nash

Nah, you just need Murray Walker commentating :) Now _THAT'S_ a show :) Bruce Kennewell wrote:

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> The only people who would consider watching would be those who already > frequent this NG. > > There would be minimal likelihood of attracting the "general public" to be > spectators to a virtual race between people whom they wouldn't know from a > bar of soap racing for stuff-all in terms of prize-money, prestige or > national pride. > > It would take all the resources of the best advertising psychologists in the > world to convince John Q. Public to rack up more charges on his > telecommunications bill just to watch GPL on-line! > > -- > Regards, > Bruce Kennewell, > Canberra, Australia. > --------------------------- > > Brett Cammack <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > Interesting idea: Hack/patch GPL to optionally stream the playback > > data on the current race in-progress to a specified IP address > > designated by the host. (Probably only practical on a high-bandwidth > > connection) > > > > Provide a standalone playback module that can receive and display the > > datastream so that people can "tune in" and watch an online race > > in-progress as if watching television except that they control all of > > the cameras. > > > > It's the sort of innovation that could make GPL noteworthy in the > > marketplace... > > > > Regards, > > Brett C. Cammack > > That's Racing! Motorsports > > Pompano Beach, FL > > -----------== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News ==---------- > http://www.newsfeeds.com The Largest Usenet Servers in the World! > ------== Over 73,000 Newsgroups - Including Dedicated Binaries Servers ==-----

-- Rob Swindells "Add life to your days, not days to your life." "The greatest substitute for talent is hard work." "Doing it, is better than watching it, is better than simulating it." "I may not be perfect, but parts of me are excellent."

I think it;s a great idea as well. I often get a disco from a race, but I still want to see the end! Perhaps, if it isn't too hard, there could be made a trial with it, and the hotshots could organize a real championship, while the entire community can watch. I sure would like to watch them driving and chasing eachother at paces I can only dream of. > With the ability to change the bandwidth per client, this might bepossible. > The Race server (DSL connection or whatever) would also need to have a > connection to the Spectator server, but the advantage is that the numberof > spectators wouldn't affect the actual drivers connection. > > Can you imagine this..... a World Championship with up to 50 or maybe100

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> people watching. Now that would be a little bit of pressure.. :-) > Brett Cammack <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > Interesting idea: Hack/patch GPL to optionally stream the playback > > data on the current race in-progress to a specified IP address > > designated by the host. (Probably only practical on a high-bandwidth > > connection) > > > > Provide a standalone playback module that can receive and display the > > datastream so that people can "tune in" and watch an online race > > in-progress as if watching television except that they control all of > > the cameras. > > > > It's the sort of innovation that could make GPL noteworthy in the > > marketplace...

>your argument about money is >not worthy. The whole of Europe isn't "worthy"? -- Cheers! Graeme Nash

The only people who would consider watching would be those who already frequent this NG. There would be minimal likelihood of attracting the "general public" to be spectators to a virtual race between people whom they wouldn't know from a bar of soap racing for stuff-all in terms of prize-money, prestige or national pride. It would take all the resources of the best advertising psychologists in the world to convince John Q. Public to rack up more charges on his telecommunications bill just to watch GPL on-line! -- Regards, Bruce Kennewell, Canberra, Australia. --------------------------- Brett Cammack <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > Interesting idea: Hack/patch GPL to optionally stream the playback > data on the current race in-progress to a specified IP address > designated by the host. (Probably only practical on a high-bandwidth > connection) > > Provide a standalone playback module that can receive and display the > datastream so that people can "tune in" and watch an online race > in-progress as if watching television except that they control all of > the cameras. > > It's the sort of innovation that could make GPL noteworthy in the > marketplace... > > Regards, > Brett C. Cammack > That's Racing! Motorsports > Pompano Beach, FL -----------== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News ==---------- http://www.newsfeeds.com The Largest Usenet Servers in the World! ------== Over 73,000 Newsgroups - Including Dedicated Binaries Servers ==-----

Interesting idea: Hack/patch GPL to optionally stream the playback data on the current race in-progress to a specified IP address designated by the host. (Probably only practical on a high-bandwidth connection) Provide a standalone playback module that can receive and display the datastream so that people can "tune in" and watch an online race in-progress as if watching television except that they control all of the cameras. It's the sort of innovation that could make GPL noteworthy in the marketplace... Regards, Brett C. Cammack That's Racing! Motorsports Pompano Beach, FL

Bruce Kennewell wrote:

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> > The only people who would consider watching would be those who already > frequent this NG. > > There would be minimal likelihood of attracting the "general public" to be > spectators to a virtual race between people whom they wouldn't know from a > bar of soap racing for stuff-all in terms of prize-money, prestige or > national pride. > > It would take all the resources of the best advertising psychologists in the > world to convince John Q. Public to rack up more charges on his > telecommunications bill just to watch GPL on-line! > > -- > Regards, > Bruce Kennewell, > Canberra, Australia. > --------------------------- > > Brett Cammack <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > Interesting idea: Hack/patch GPL to optionally stream the playback > > data on the current race in-progress to a specified IP address > > designated by the host. (Probably only practical on a high-bandwidth > > connection) > > > > Provide a standalone playback module that can receive and display the > > datastream so that people can "tune in" and watch an online race > > in-progress as if watching television except that they control all of > > the cameras. > > > > It's the sort of innovation that could make GPL noteworthy in the > > marketplace... > > > > Regards, > > Brett C. Cammack > > That's Racing! Motorsports > > Pompano Beach, FL >

Um.. that's only if you pay for your internet connections. Even if you only pay $10.00 US/month for the internet, your argument about money is not worthy. Second, You are right that only those that know anything about internet racing would watch such an event. However, I've seen racing events on ESPN2 that I never knew existed. I watched in earnest with all the excitement I have with all the other forms of racing I watch. So, J. Q. Public would have an interest in it. Add the aspect of editing the track.dat files, more specifically the bill boards, and place www.BarlowRacing.co m on those and you have the advertising you need to pay for more races and prizes, and the wishful $1,000,000,000 grand prize. It would probably be more or less 1% of the current race fan that knows nothing of our racing that would become interested. but 1% is still better then 0%. Just my take on things, Mike -- ========================================= Mike Barlow of Barlow Racing� ========================================= http://members.xoom.com/BarlowRacing/ Racing online with the help of...... Race Communications Association Holodyne Engineering Mystic Music (have Your !!Name/Address!! placed here)

"�artijn" wrote:

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> > I think it;s a great idea as well. I often get a disco from a race, but I > still want to see the end! > Perhaps, if it isn't too hard, there could be made a trial with it, and the > hotshots could organize a real championship, while the entire community can > watch. I sure would like to watch them driving and chasing eachother at > paces I can only dream of. > > > With the ability to change the bandwidth per client, this might be > possible. > > The Race server (DSL connection or whatever) would also need to have a > > connection to the Spectator server, but the advantage is that the number > of > > spectators wouldn't affect the actual drivers connection. > > > > Can you imagine this..... a World Championship with up to 50 or maybe > 100 > > people watching. Now that would be a little bit of pressure.. :-) > > > Brett Cammack <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:[email hidden]... > > > Interesting idea: Hack/patch GPL to optionally stream the playback > > > data on the current race in-progress to a specified IP address > > > designated by the host. (Probably only practical on a high-bandwidth > > > connection) > > > > > > Provide a standalone playback module that can receive and display the > > > datastream so that people can "tune in" and watch an online race > > > in-progress as if watching television except that they control all of > > > the cameras. > > > > > > It's the sort of innovation that could make GPL noteworthy in the > > > marketplace...

Another note.. note to long ago, Eric cote attempted to broadcast a race over Fire talk. There were certainly enough people interested in listening. Unfortunately it was only those that were on VROC but if it was advertised in advance and in the right Web sites, NG's and such, there would probably be a bigger crowd. Then add in a TV commercial about it and I'm sure that that FT forum would have been full to capacity. On the down side, 50% of those people probably would log on just to hear what it's all about then leave. But, even if he was able to make it interesting enough to listen to, I can assume that out of the remaining 50%, at the very least 1% would return for the second event the following week. The only thing needed (someone else just mentioned this) is a voice that would make the event interesting enough to listen to. Even if it wasn't GPL, what if it was the NASCAR3 or 4 sim. Being NASCAR I'm positive that there would be an audience. even if that audience grew as slowly and only 1/2 that of the NASCAR 4cylender following.. it's still worth it to do this for the price the investors paid for it :) -- ========================================= Mike Barlow of Barlow Racing� ========================================= http://members.xoom.com/BarlowRacing/ Racing online with the help of...... Race Communications Association Holodyne Engineering Mystic Music (have Your !!Name/Address!! placed here)

Graeme Nash wrote:

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> > >your argument about money is > >not worthy. > > The whole of Europe isn't "worthy"? > > -- > Cheers! > Graeme Nash

hehe.. oops. I'd assume that 90% of the viewers/listeners would be from the states. The Europeans? hmm, There may be a market there but not knowing anything about them I wont say. Sorry for the boo-boo Mike

"�artijn" wrote:

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> > I think more than 50% of GPL-interested people are from Europe. So I don't > think that can be neglected. > > > hehe.. oops. I'd assume that 90% of the viewers/listeners would be > > from the states. The Europeans? hmm, There may be a market there but > > not knowing anything about them I wont say. > > > > Sorry for the boo-boo

true, but if you think about it and use your imagination.. Grand Prix Legends is a small part of the online racing community. There's still NASCAR3, and I believe MS MTM had an online series. So, The first one to get this concept going could be the one that sets the stage for all the other series including GPL. -- ========================================= Mike Barlow of Barlow Racing� ========================================= http://members.xoom.com/BarlowRacing/ Racing online with the help of...... Race Communications Association Holodyne Engineering Mystic Music (have Your !!Name/Address!! placed here)

A.) I think it would be a neat hack, so it appeals to me. B.) *I* would like to be able to watch a race when I'm not in the position to actually compete. (Like, say, at work) I consider myself to be an individual, but doubt if I am so unique that the concept appeals to no one else. C.) I'd love to invite my brother in Seattle to "tune in" to watch me race sometime. Maybe it would get him jazzed up enought about GPL to spring for a wheel controller, a copy of GPL, and the time to learn driving these beasts. He races autocross and would get hooked fast if he could actually watch one of the VROC races. D.) Nascar3 is a huge seller and is also written by Papyrus. The technology would be readily transferable across their product line. The key to such a marketplace is differentiation. This would be quite a differentiator. Regards, Brett C. Cammack That's Racing! Motorsports Pompano Beach, FL

Michael, you are deluding yourself (and possibly others) if you really believe that there is any commercial merit in this proposal. And return on investment is what it would need for it to be implemented in the first place. -- Regards, Bruce Kennewell, Canberra, Australia. --------------------------- Michael Barlow <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > Bruce Kennewell wrote: > > > > The only people who would consider watching would be those who already > > frequent this NG. > > > > There would be minimal likelihood of attracting the "general public" to be > > spectators to a virtual race between people whom they wouldn't know from a > > bar of soap racing for stuff-all in terms of prize-money, prestige or > > national pride. > > > > It would take all the resources of the best advertising psychologists in the > > world to convince John Q. Public to rack up more charges on his > > telecommunications bill just to watch GPL on-line! > > > > -- > > Regards, > > Bruce Kennewell, > > Canberra, Australia. > > --------------------------- > > > > Brett Cammack <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:[email hidden]... > > > Interesting idea: Hack/patch GPL to optionally stream the playback > > > data on the current race in-progress to a specified IP address > > > designated by the host. (Probably only practical on a high-bandwidth > > > connection) > > > > > > Provide a standalone playback module that can receive and display the > > > datastream so that people can "tune in" and watch an online race > > > in-progress as if watching television except that they control all of > > > the cameras. > > > > > > It's the sort of innovation that could make GPL noteworthy in the > > > marketplace... > > > > > > Regards, > > > Brett C. Cammack > > > That's Racing! Motorsports > > > Pompano Beach, FL > > > > Um.. that's only if you pay for your internet connections. Even if you > only pay $10.00 US/month for the internet, your argument about money is > not worthy. > > Second, You are right that only those that know anything about > internet racing would watch such an event. However, I've seen racing > events on ESPN2 that I never knew existed. I watched in earnest with all > the excitement I have with all the other forms of racing I watch. So, > J. Q. Public would have an interest in it. Add the aspect of editing > the track.dat files, more specifically the bill boards, and place > www.BarlowRacing.co > m on those and you have the advertising you need to pay for more races > and prizes, and the wishful $1,000,000,000 grand prize. It would > probably be more or less 1% of the current race fan that knows nothing > of our racing that would become interested. but 1% is still better then > 0%. > > Just my take on things, > Mike > -- > ========================================= > Mike Barlow of Barlow Racing� > ========================================= > http://members.xoom.com/BarlowRacing/ > > Racing online with the help of...... > > Race Communications Association > Holodyne Engineering > Mystic Music > (have Your !!Name/Address!! placed here) -----------== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News ==---------- http://www.newsfeeds.com The Largest Usenet Servers in the World! ------== Over 73,000 Newsgroups - Including Dedicated Binaries Servers ==-----

Michael Barlow <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > Even if it wasn't GPL, what if it was the NASCAR3 or 4 sim. Being > NASCAR I'm positive that there would be an audience. even if that > audience grew as slowly and only 1/2 that of the NASCAR 4cylender > following.. it's still worth it to do this for the price the investors > paid for it :) There are at least two problems. The technology challenge is not so great; it can be overcome relatively easily. The choice, it would seem, is between server bandwidth for streaming video, or a specialized viewer downloaded and run on client machines. Not simple, but not insurmountable. The larger problem is defining a target market and revenue stream visible enough to find seed money. I wonder if an enterprising individual can define a virtual racing league, and draw enough audience to entice ESPN eventually. The problem is building an empire where there isn't even an industry already. Granted, something will happen in the next few tens of years. The question isn't IF or WHEN -- I believe the technology pace makes that inevitable -- but WHAT precisely? Does auto racing **simulation** capture the hearts and imaginations of the common man or woman? I don't think so. (Only 40k copies of GPL sold? That's an obscene disappointment!) It also won't be combat flight sims, or a Quake shoot-em-up, and it won't be championship bridge or chess; they all exist at some level already. Goofy trivia games, ala Greed or be-a-millionaire, have the best chance right now, of all the internet accessible games. In theory, everyone has a chance to get in on the fun, and trivia games have nothing to do with spending the wee hours every morning squeezing anothing millisecond out of Eau Rouge. The best chance for pay-back is for a game vendor: he might see increased revenue from broader exposure, perhaps on public access cable TV channels. Maybe they might even make prime time someday, as a fringe sport, but never to reach Superbowl-mania level. There might even be enough interest to support sponsorship for especially talented drivers; Soundblaster, 3dfx, and Actlabs seem like good candidates. Would it be enough for the driver to quit his day job? Will he go on to catch a ride on a real race team? Maybe this has to happen first: the current crop of hot-shoes graduate to sponsored berths in some racing league, and work their way to the top of the GP heap. They do well enough to validate GPL, or some other sim, as a heretofore unrecognized testing ground for racing talent. At that point, ten years down the road, you'll have something. As it stands, live GPL races appeal only to a very limited audience, and then only as marginal entertainment. There will be no short-term payback for the significant effort. So, prove me wrong. Who wants to ante up the first dime? After all, the NFL and WWF both started from nothing. Even nine ball tournaments and roller derbies get air time. Why shouldn't a sim race league? Michael.

I've often thought this would allow sim racing to take the next step from a hobby, to a real competition. It wouldn't be too difficult (the theory isn't anyway) RACE SERVER=========High bandwidth connection=======SPECTATOR SERVER / / / | | | | | | | | | | \ \ \ /////////||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||\\\\\\\\\ o o o o o o o o o o oooooooooooooooooooooooooo connections (up to 20 drivers) (connections - more than 20 possible) Defined bandwidth per client Much less bandwidth per client With the ability to change the bandwidth per client, this might be possible. The Race server (DSL connection or whatever) would also need to have a connection to the Spectator server, but the advantage is that the number of spectators wouldn't affect the actual drivers connection. Can you imagine this..... a World Championship with up to 50 or maybe 100 people watching. Now that would be a little bit of pressure.. :-) James Pickard Brett Cammack <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> Interesting idea: Hack/patch GPL to optionally stream the playback > data on the current race in-progress to a specified IP address > designated by the host. (Probably only practical on a high-bandwidth > connection) > > Provide a standalone playback module that can receive and display the > datastream so that people can "tune in" and watch an online race > in-progress as if watching television except that they control all of > the cameras. > > It's the sort of innovation that could make GPL noteworthy in the > marketplace... > > Regards, > Brett C. Cammack > That's Racing! Motorsports > Pompano Beach, FL

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> > Even if it wasn't GPL, what if it was the NASCAR3 or 4 sim. Being > > NASCAR I'm positive that there would be an audience. even if that > > audience grew as slowly and only 1/2 that of the NASCAR 4cylender > > following.. it's still worth it to do this for the price the investors > > paid for it :) > There are at least two problems. The technology challenge is not so great; > it can be overcome relatively easily. The choice, it would seem, is between > server bandwidth for streaming video, or a specialized viewer downloaded and > run on client machines. Not simple, but not insurmountable.

Good point. However, Streaming video is not a requirement. The Replay files as is is the only thing that's needed for video, as well as a client that can translate it into a picture. Also, what about forgetting about the video? what about just a radio show of sorts. Granted that the audience would then be next to nothing, but... We already proved there is an audience for voice, but again the audience would probably be just the other drivers. But who knows. Video, like I said, just needs a client application to translate the replay as it comes in. The bandwidth would be a problem for 33.6 modems, but for T1,T3,ADLS,Cable.. still a problem but not nearly as big a problem as a 33.6 or 56k's. You have the right idea but are going at it the wrong way (imo). Currently, all that's needed is a client that's able to view the replay in real time. Cost? If MS does it... then it's mucho dollars. If someone such as me does it.. $0.00. I'll even give you a loan at 1.0% interest to buy it;-) Once the client is built, It's a matter of having a Sim that will send the server replay out to another client and not expect anything back from that client. We already know that the full replay is being sent by the server to those that are out of the race. Watch a GPL race as the 18th driver. Don't run in the race, but just watch the race. You can see all the cars. (BTW: I've noticed a whole lot less warping in F3 races then F1 races. Don't ask why because I don't know, but that's what I've noticed) Since we know the replay can be sent out and sent to a specific client already, we just need to have that replay client be able to send the replay out to other clients to view. At the very most, maybe send that replay from the replay client out to 3 other clients. The have everyone that wants to view it, connect to any one of those clients. So, We know it is possible with out a doubt. It's just that we need that client application first. If we were to start out with having the ability to watch a replay "live", the next step would be to have someone figure out how to make money off of it. Nothing says that money even has to be made! Someone will eventually figure out how to make money off of it. We just have to get the ball rolling for such a concept to work in the first place. -- ========================================= Mike Barlow of Barlow Racing? ========================================= http://members.xoom.com/BarlowRacing/ Racing online with the help of...... Race Communications Association Holodyne Engineering Mystic Music (have Your !!Name/Address!! placed here)

Mike, the technology challenge is relatively small, as we both point out. The only real problem with distributing a portable viewer is with the copyrighted track files. Streaming video is the alternative. The business model is what's askew. I already own GPL; I can already view the replays, or drop in on a race to see it live. VROC can double or triple (at least) its traffic by providing live feeds from races, without clogging the race with non-participants. So far, so good. However, there is only a very limited pool of GPL fans to support this. There are two reasons to to make this effort. The first is some added entertainment value for us, the knowledgable kibbitzers. The second is profit motive. The added entertainment value is small. VROC might realize some revenue from banner ads if this takes off. I expect it will, but only on a very small scale, certainly no larger than the existing group of online racers. The revenues won't cover the effort and expense of the changes required. It won't appeal to the masses, since the average-Joe has to make a big investment -- in download time and suitable equipment, not just dollars -- before even viewing the first race. This is why I suggest streaming video. Even this is inadequate, as realistic bandwidth only allows a very low resolution display, which is probably worst than nothing at all. The GPL demo acts a free viewer of sorts, but only works for races at Monza and the Glen. In any case, it has to appeal to the average person cruising the web for something new and exciting. He should be able to drop in on VROC, peek in on a few races, and then get e***d and then get involved. The larger the investment he has to make -- download time or real dollars -- the smaller your potential audience. In terms of growing the market, viewing live races on your PC, via the internet, on your licensed copy of GPL, doesn't do diddly. If you're bent on doing this, I would suggest taping a race season from your own display. My Voodoo3 does a very good job of this, BTW, at 36 fps and full screen resolution. Try to get airtime on local public access cable TV channels. This bypasses the equipment and bandwidth issues altogether. You need to build an audience, and then point them to where the replay viewers can be downloaded, and where the races can be viewed. Who knows; ESPN or some mainstream channel might pick up on it. After you build an audience, GPL might do well enough to support further development, enhancing our experience. But none of this will happen without expanding the audience we already have. And it won't put a dime into your pocket, even though I might feel some gratitude for your having made the effort. Michael.

> Mike, the technology challenge is relatively small, as we both point out. > The only real problem with distributing a portable viewer is with the > copyrighted track files. Streaming video is the alternative. Copy writted track files? didn't think about that. Very good point. We had a good thing going till you went ahead and spoiled it. dang it. grrr ;-) You didn't read the other posts. It doesn't have to be GPL.. NASCAR is a whole lot bigger in the States then is GPL. so, why not do something like this for the NASCAR Sims? get the picture? doesn't have to be GPL that starts it, nor does it have to be GPL that's exclusive. There are many different sims out there that could benefit more so then GPL just for the same reason you mention.. Not to many fans of old racing. Again, you didn't read.. Nothing says that money has to be made anywhere. second, if there was an application that could do this, It would be used by a wide range of GPL drivers (or NASCAR drivers, or ect.. depending on the Sim it's made for). As far as TV coverage? It doesn't have to go that far, although it would be nice ;-) If someone were to build such an application it could go anywhere, or it could die right out. There's only one way to find out and that's to find someone that would know how to build such a thing. Either way it ends up going, It would be used by a lot of people. Either by the drivers them selves or by...?? Can't say it will never happen or that it would be a waste till it actually exists in the first place. -- ========================================= Mike Barlow of Barlow Racing? ========================================= http://members.xoom.com/BarlowRacing/ Racing online with the help of...... Race Communications Association Holodyne Engineering Mystic Music (have Your !!Name/Address!! placed here)

Ooh, you're very much on the wrong track here, I think. Streaming video is MUCH, MUCH more bandwidth-critical. Like a factor 100!! DON'T go there! You HAVE to use GPL for calculating the video image from the raw car-positioning data!

It's been a great discussion, Mike. Thanks for sharing your thoughts. Yes, you're right. Doing it for the love of it is fine. However, NASCAR!?!? Blahhh! :-) I personally abhor it, but it has the best chance to succeed, given that it's closer to the common-man's cognitive awareness. I still recall my first reaction to GPL: "But why? I wish they had modeled something else." Sure, I can agree with all that. There is value in allowing drop-in spectators in online races. I might drop in and watch a few races, along with everyone already here reading this newsgroup. I might even learn a few things riding along with the leaders. As a participant, I might get a small charge from knowing that someone out there might have watched the dueling, recognizing, understanding, sharing, and enjoying the brilliant moments that they were. The trouble is that it doesn't reach outside our small group. We can already view any race simply by having bought the game. It won't reach the regular guy, the guy who is a racecar sim'er, but doesn't know it yet. The $250 that stays in his pocket isn't doing any of us any good, except maybe him. It doe sn't help pay for the next version of GPL, or help push hardware to the next level. I think maybe that's the difference. You want only to race with him someday; I want his wallet. :-) All yammering aside, what you're suggesting is easily possible. The next step -- widespread appeal -- takes effort, commitment, and money. The payoffs can be big for all of us, and especially for the sponsoring body. It can also fall flat, especially for the sponsoring body. That's why you're farther ahead in your thinking than I am: just skip the step that probably won't pay at all, and settle for the eventual aftermath. It works for me; I don't have ten years and a deep pocket to make it a reality. And if I did, I would probably spend it on something else just as worthwhile, with a better chance for payoff. Michael.