Re: What is the interest of oval racing ?

On the following date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 21:20:47 -0000, said person(s) "David Shield" <[email hidden]> stated: Dave, you sure do contradict yourself. First you say: >why their are no roundabouts in the US - Then in this message you say: >i know the glen has left hand turns Then you contradict your first message with: >but then it isnt an oval is it. Now, do you agree that there are in fact non-oval racing in NASCAR or not? Make up your mind. And if this doesn't sound like you think us Americans are afraid to turn right then I don't know what your smokin': >giving way to the right is a worrying thought for your average american - James "Gunslinger" Wohlever [email hidden] Techware Computer Services http://techware.gtinsider.com Send ATTACHMENTS (Files) to: [email hidden]

From: LL <[email hidden]> Subject: What is the interest of oval racing ? > I know it will make some people jump but where is the fun ? I am not the most eloquent person on this topic, but maybe I can share with you some of my observations as a person who enjoys NASCAR coverage on TV but wouldn't bother to put on an F1 race (or would put it on and fall asleep or ignore it). Go ahead and call me names or tell me I'm ignorant or whatever, but these are just opinions, so they can't really be *wrong*. NASCAR races on road courses a few times each year and I find those races to be very entertaining. I make sure not to miss Sears Point and Watkins Glen. On the other hand, I couldn't be bothered to see CART race on a road circuit (or an oval), so that says there is something about the cars that attracts me. In the case of open wheel cars, they don't look much like cars to me and the manufacturers associated with the vehicles often have little or no resonance in my mind. Arrows? Minardi? Sauber? Jordan? Benetton? Huh? A French person may be able to get excited about a Peugot, but to me it is a wheezy, ugly little economy car where Chevy or Ford or Pontiac are cars I see every day and have known my whole life. Sure, they also make wheezy ugly economy cars, but they also make performance cars that have been part of my cultural experience since I was a little kid. There is no such thing as a 'Williams' automobile, so cheering for it to beat a BAR kind of loses relevance for me. I will never own a Ferrari or a McLaren, so it's difficult to care about either of them. I just can't relate. I also enjoy drag racing (which has no corners at all.) Interestingly, I would rather watch Funny Cars, ProStocks or even stock racing rather than Top Fuel. This would seem to follow the trend of closed-body cars being more interesting to me. My best friend is a big F1 fan and we have had our spats about NASCAR vs. F1. He seems to be very focused on the driver racing 'against' the track. It is almost like F1 cars could run the races by themselves and just compare times afterwards. It seems that F1 is rarely about a car or driver racing against another. In NASCAR, the action is almost constant and in very close quarters. Near the front of the pack, there is often driver interaction and passing going on at a fever pitch. In some of the F1 racing I have been exposed to, I get the impression that the biggest excitement is from sitting on the edge of your seat wondering if a car is going to break down when it's 15 seconds ahead of everyone else. NASCAR is a spectacle. The cars are flashy, the personalities of the drivers and crew chiefs and car owners are thrust into the spotlight as well. They all speak the same language and the crowd can understand them. The big sponsor graphics splashed on the cars add to the fun. Many of the products advertised are used by the viewers so there's another connection to the viewers world. Being able to see the whole race, rather than a series of seemingly unconnected corners, is also important to sustaining the excitement. Cars crawling around corners in the rain at 35 MPH is not exciting, even if they are trying to pass one another. Cars pushed to their limit, driving at 180, 190 or 200 mph for long periods of time are RACING, not just driving. Sustained speed. It seems like oval racing is a largely American fascination, too. Part of the lack of interest in F1 may be chalked up to the tracks F1 runs on being too far away and not names anyone knows. I have GPL and appreciate everything about it that's excellent from a driving standpoint, but I don't care about Kyalami and Zandvoort and Silverstone and Monza and whatever because I can't relate to where they are and didn't grow up hearing about them. I also don't care about the cars or drivers in GPL, so the whole thing loses fascination for me. It isn't the road course aspect, either, because I love SCGT (again, closed body cars.) I dunno, sorry for the disorganized presentation. The original question seemed to come from someone who genuinely doesn't understand why people would want to see cars driving in a circle. I think the answer is that they like the spectacle of the event, the close, competitive racing and can relate to the drivers, teams and tracks. I am really only speaking for myself and making some broad suppositions about other people, so take it for what it's worth. ~daxe

I'll borrow a line from the "F14 Fleet Defender" (flightsim). "If you're not sweating these carrier landings, you don't understand the problem." There's more to it than meets the eye. You cannot appreciate something done right until you truly know how hard it is. Jan. ---- LL <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:VxOu4.1573$[email hidden]... > I know it will make some people jump but where is the fun ? > >

"The people at Nascar understand all aspects of racing very well" -Carroll Smith I think you hit the nail on the head there. I think it's almost impossible to form a lifelong fascination for something wihtout having experienced it, or something very like it, first hand. I.E. TV doesn't relate the full experience. It's hard to empathise with drivers you haven't seen come through the lower formulas (I bet Michael Andretti saw very few fan banners with his name on it when he was in F1). I think it's equally hard to really get "into" or stay into a form of racing you haven't been to see live. I personnally got hooked to motorsports in general afterstumbling into a European Championship Rally on holliday when I was a kid. You probably went down to the local dirt oval in your younger years. It's something you grow into, as real appreciation, IMO, comes with understanding. Jan. ---- daxe <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > <snip> > NASCAR is a spectacle. The cars are flashy, the personalities of the > drivers and crew chiefs and car owners are thrust into the spotlight as > well. They all speak the same language and the crowd can understand them. > The big sponsor graphics splashed on the cars add to the fun. Many of the > products advertised are used by the viewers so there's another connectionto > the viewers world.

The racing never stops! On a roadcourse you can be stuck behind a slower car for the whole race and never figure out how to pass, or at best you'll have to wait for your one or two favorite passing spots before you can do it. On an oval, the passing opportunities come much more frequently. Some say turning left over and over again is too easy, but nothing is easy when you've got a whole slew of other guys who are trying just as hard to win as you are. My first love is road courses, because they're a better test of car control, but ovals are pretty cool in their own way. -A LL wrote in message ... >I know it will make some people jump but where is the fun ? > >

On the following date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 18:44:51 -0000, said person(s) "David Shield" <[email hidden]> stated: >may i quote an explanation for why their are no roundabouts in the US - cos >giving way to the right is a worrying thought for your average american :) > >maybe the same could be applied to your tendency to go round in left hand >circles? >I'm going to ignore the snobbishness of that remark. ...ok, I'm not.. I'm really starting to hate Brits with there arrogant remarks. Watkins Glen has right hand turns. ....Searspoint too.. And they biggest reason us "scared" Americans like Oval racing? Because we like to go fast during the whole race. Not slow down and breath for turns like you F1 folks do. - James Wohlever #98 Techware Motorsports

[email hidden] (LL) wrote in <VxOu4.1573$[email hidden]>: >I know it will make some people jump but where is the fun ? > Slipstreaming. Oh, and never having to turn right. How about a clockwise oval? That might make team owners think a bit... -- David. "After all, a mere thousand yards - such a harmless little knoll, really." (Raymond Mays on Shelsley Walsh)

Well LL..... It depends... if you are a fan at the track... you get to see the entire track, plus you are really close to the action.. and it goes on and on , so you get to 'know' that you've been to a race.. ... as a 'driver' .. it's always close racing.. you rely a lot on trust with the other drivers... it's a regular wage..hehe racing every week.. It's a 'head' job because the races are so long and have to be paced.. unlike sprints.. ... as a tv viewer... well yes.. it does tend to put me to sleep...but there is always the strategy side of things... ya gotta know when to go for the 'stretch' run or the 'short pit'.... this stuff doesn't come with the N3 manual... And finally.. its a real slice of American culture... :-))... and a fairly benign one at that... -- J.H.Vizoso..... ICQ..37209596 Even a blind squirrel can find a nut ......'Buddy Baker' LL <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:VxOu4.1573$[email hidden]... > I know it will make some people jump but where is the fun ? > >

The fun is in the crashes....???? Only thing is that crashes in real life are not fun but tragic. I think that oval racing is for people who doesn�t give a d**n for driving skills. It�s probably fun for the engineers to see if they can set up a car that can drive a lap without turning the steering wheel. BR Thomas Soerensen GPL Enthusiast of Denmark 2-way turner In article <VxOu4.1573$[email hidden]>, "LL" <[email hidden]> wrote: > I know it will make some people jump but where is the fun ? > > Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy.

Also, don't forget that Nascar racing gets ZERO media coverage in Europe, while you can watch training, qualifying, warm-up and the actual race of F1 on almost every channel you like. While all i was able to see of Rockingham last Sunday was Labonte and Earnhardt passing the finish line, covered by CNN (25 seconds) I was lucky i didn't have to sneeze or i would have missed that either... I personally got to understand the rules and develop an interest in Nascar through these Nascar games. Before that i also thought that it was just hittin' the gas and turn left.... (That's also how for example N3 gets reviewed in Holland : "It's only goin' in circles and there's not even background music...") I believe that the original poster of this thread is from France, so i can understand his point of view, it's a common European thought. It's easy: Europe has F1, USA has Nascar and no discussion's ever gonna change that.... -- XLjunkie-- "The Utility Pit" -- http://utility-pit.homepage.com -- "Jan Verschueren" <[email hidden]> schreef in bericht news:[email hidden]... > I'll borrow a line from the "F14 Fleet Defender" (flightsim). > > "If you're not sweating these carrier landings, you don't understand the > problem." > > There's more to it than meets the eye. You cannot appreciate somethingdone

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> right until you truly know how hard it is. > > Jan. > ---- > LL <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:VxOu4.1573$[email hidden]... > > I know it will make some people jump but where is the fun ? > > > > > >

Easy to televise, efficient use of limited space. In terms of racing, I think the draft anabled by close, consistent driving is the most interesting part of it. A dimension that just doesn't factor much in F1. In fact, the draft might be the subtlest skill to master in racing. In CART, you also see unbelievable speeds (over 240 MPH). All that said, I don't much enjoy ovals- except maybe the huge ones (Michigan, Indy, Talladega) On Tue, 29 Feb 2000 12:00:53 GMT, "LL" <[email hidden]> wrote: >I know it will make some people jump but where is the fun ? > >

I know it will make some people jump but where is the fun ?

More advertising per second TV coverage. And even the backmarkers get attention. It's the money that does it. JoH On Tue, 29 Feb 2000 12:00:53 GMT, "LL" <[email hidden]> wrote: >I know it will make some people jump but where is the fun ? > > ======================================== Jo Helsen EDP Operations BF Belgium [email hidden] ========================================

may i quote an explanation for why their are no roundabouts in the US - cos giving way to the right is a worrying thought for your average american :) maybe the same could be applied to your tendency to go round in left hand circles? LL <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:VxOu4.1573$[email hidden]... > I know it will make some people jump but where is the fun ? > >

The way I see it is, Most forms of racing today is really the driver racing the"track". Cars are spread out and it becomes drivers out there just turning laps and only having to race another driver once in a while. Where Nascar is just traffic, You are too busy racing the other cars and dealing with traffic to worry about lap times. You race the cars around you first and the track second. You may move up through the field without taking the ideal line. -- Kevin Anderson [email hidden] --------------------------------------------------- DK-Racing #15 K_Anderson ------------------------------------------------- http://www.awtech.net/ LL <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:VxOu4.1573$[email hidden]... > I know it will make some people jump but where is the fun ? > >

hmm sorry, i dont wanna get into international disputes here :( personally i have very little interest in 'modern' F1 anyway, and while nascar and the like looks entertaining, we dont get it on TV over here. oh and where in that post did i suggest that you were scared? btw i know the glen has left hand turns, but then it isnt an oval is it. dave James Wohlever <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > On the following date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 18:44:51 -0000, said person(s) > "David Shield" <[email hidden]> stated: > > >may i quote an explanation for why their are no roundabouts in the US -cos > >giving way to the right is a worrying thought for your average american:)

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> > > >maybe the same could be applied to your tendency to go round in left hand > >circles? > > > I'm going to ignore the snobbishness of that remark. > ...ok, I'm not.. I'm really starting to hate Brits with there arrogant > remarks. > > > Watkins Glen has right hand turns. > ....Searspoint too.. > > And they biggest reason us "scared" Americans like Oval racing? > Because we like to go fast during the whole race. > Not slow down and breath for turns like you F1 folks do. > > - James Wohlever > #98 Techware Motorsports >

Door to door, nose to tail, lap after lap after lap... concentrating more on the race than the circuit. It's not surprising many road racing fans don't get it. But once you do it, you'll love it. BTW, I love road racing too. -- ----------------------------------- Morgan Vincent Wooten mailto:[email hidden] http://members.tripod.com/~morganv/ ----------------------------------- LL <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:VxOu4.1573$[email hidden]... > I know it will make some people jump but where is the fun ? > >

A couple of things that I like are the sportsmanship (although sometimes it's ugly) and the teams determination to claw for a couple of points. In case you are not aware. Every position, from 1 to 43 gets points. This causes some heroic work by teams and drivers. Anyone rember Dale Earhardt up on his roof because of contact between he and Jeff Gordon at Daytona a couple of years ago. He's in the ambulance and notices that the wheels are still on the car, asks one of the track workers to see if the car will start. It does, he jumps out of the ambulance, drives it back to the pits. The team wraps the car up with duct tape, and he finishes the race. Why. Because no matter where he finishes, he gets some points. If he just rides in the ambulance he's near the bottom. If he finishes the race, he gains a few more points. As for the sportsmanship thing, anyone rember Sterling Marlin's crewman leaving a wrench in the roof one race, and he stopped at the end of pit lane a another team ran out and pulled it out. He surely would have gone down a lap or two if the team hadn't pulled out the wrech, but the team that pulled it could have gained positions on him if they would have left it. That's just a couple of reasons I love Nascar. Dean LL wrote in message ... >I know it will make some people jump but where is the fun ? > >

James Wohlever wrote:

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> > On the following date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 18:44:51 -0000, said person(s) > "David Shield" <[email hidden]> stated: > > >may i quote an explanation for why their are no roundabouts in the US - cos > >giving way to the right is a worrying thought for your average american :) > > > >maybe the same could be applied to your tendency to go round in left hand > >circles? > > > I'm going to ignore the snobbishness of that remark. > ...ok, I'm not.. I'm really starting to hate Brits with there arrogant > remarks.

You complain about his snobby remarks... > > Watkins Glen has right hand turns. > ....Searspoint too.. ..point out that there are a neglectable number of road tracks raced in Nascar... > > And they biggest reason us "scared" Americans like Oval racing? > Because we like to go fast during the whole race. > Not slow down and breath for turns like you F1 folks do. ..and then make a snobby remark yourself? That's quite inconsistent, isn't it? ;^) -- l8er ronny Your mouse has moved. Windows must be restarted for the change to take effect. Reboot now? |\ _,,,---,,_ I want to die like my Grandfather, ZZZzz /,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,_ in his sleep. |,4- ) )-,_. ,\ ( `'-' Not like the people in his car, '---''(_/--' `-'\_) screaming their heads off!

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>Subject: What is the interest of oval racing ? >From: "LL" [email hidden] >Date: 02/29/2000 7:00 AM Eastern Standard Time >Message-id: <VxOu4.1573$[email hidden]> > >I know it will make some people jump but where is the fun ? >

trolling trolling la ta de da da da...... ....well enjoy yourself at your favorite 4k 27 turn road course.... or should I say enjoy the one turn and 150 meters of track that you can actually see....and revel with elation at seeing those pointy nosed tubes with wheels woosh by seperated by mere minutes...don't want them to have any contact after all cause the slightest contact will after all force the driver to drop out of the race because "me front wing got off kilter." Then there's the exciting interview with the driver knocked out of the race "...they have to do something about those backmarkers they're always getting in my way..." What fun!!!!!! (Don't use NOCRAP in E-mail) You think in the storm we've found the eye of the calm.....Bill Mallonnee, Vigilantes Of Love

Mark Hewitt wrote: > > But yeah, we have no roundabouts here in the USA > > Seriously? I know of at least one roundabout in the USA - in Southern California between Long Beach and Seal Beach on Pacific Coast Highway. This is a rather busy stretch of road and there are about five spokes on the roundabout. It is a bit confusing for us ignorant Yanks the first time you encounter it, just because it is so rare. I heard one story that the son of the guy who designed that roundabout, died in an accident while driving it, although this smells an awful lot like an Urban Legend to me. And speaking of roundabouts, my wife and I honeymooned in the UK and rented a car in London. The woman at the rental car agency was concerned about me driving on the left side of the road, but she never warned me about the dreaded roundabouts. When I first encountered one, I had no idea who had the right of way, and almost got creamed. Once I got the hang of it, I found them to be quite efficient, much better than having to wait at a red light. And I was tempted to steal a roundabout sign with "Hatfield and the North" written on it (one of the great Canterbury bands -they took their name from those signs), but I digress.... Dave Ewing -- ***************************************************** David A. Ewing Xilinx Boulder [email hidden] *****************************************************

<[email hidden]> wrote in message news:EM2v4.6364$[email hidden]... <snipped a good discusion on oval vs road races> > I also think it's a trip that Mario Andretti holds > the world race speed record for average lap speed, with an amazing 234mph > average during qualifying at Michigan. Michigan?? Isn't that a Nascartrack? Actually, Big Mo Gugelmin owns that record now with a 240+mph lap at Fontana in 1997, the last year before the Hanford Device was introduced. -- don [|]-(_)-[|]

"Doug Bishop Jackson Mich" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > >Subject: What is the interest of oval racing ? > >From: "LL" [email hidden] > >Date: 02/29/2000 7:00 AM Eastern Standard Time > >Message-id: <VxOu4.1573$[email hidden]> > ....well enjoy yourself at your favorite 4k 27 turn road course.... orshould I > say enjoy the one turn and 150 meters of track that you can actuallysee....and > revel with elation at seeing those pointy nosed tubes with wheels woosh by > seperated by mere minutes...don't want them to have any contact after allcause > the slightest contact will after all force the driver to drop out of therace > because "me front wing got off kilter." Then there's the excitinginterview > with the driver knocked out of the race "...they have to do somethingabout > those backmarkers they're always getting in my way..." What fun!!!!!! For me, the most boring thing in the world to do is sit in a hot, metal grandstand, or my own couch for that matter, and watch race cars go round in circles. I like walking the fences, checking out each corner from all the possible angles, seeing how each driver and chassis handles different turns and surfaces, how they perform under braking and acceleration. I want to look into Mikey's eyes as he struggles through the hairpin at Long Beach and the smoke pour off of Bernard's Michelins as he brakes the Panoz for the Corkscrew at Laguna. However, I would never put down another race fan for his own preferences just because I don't enjoy it. I watched oval races where the winner lapped the entire field and road races where the top 5 cars ran within a second of each other for the entire race. There are good races and not so good races, let's just enjoy the diversity that the sport offers. It really makes no sense to bash each other because we like the same sport! I'm not picking on you Doug, just the general direction that this thread has taken... -- don [|]-(_)-[|]

>Now, do you agree that there are in fact non-oval racing in NASCAR or >not? >Make up your mind. Lighten up, mate. Please :-) -- Cheers! Graeme Nash == A European who loves F1, CART, NASCAR, Touring cars and any other motorsport that isn't drag racing or tractor-pulling :-)) ==

On the following date: Wed, 01 Mar 2000 06:09:55 GMT, said person(s) "David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> stated:

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>I have no idea. >I live in the U.S. and have never been able to force myself to watch a >NASCAR race for more than 15 minutes. >Boring. Low tech. Slow. Left turn. Straight. Left turn. Straight. Yippeee. >The majority of the people who follow the sport are not my type at all too. >Beer, crashes, and bad accents are what most of them are about. >The cars are low tech and sloppy. The tracks in the series are almost all >ovals. It's not that ovals can't be fun to watch occasionally with open >wheel cars such as in CART, but not with NASCAR cars. And not EVERY race. >The drivers look like keg salesman and I doubt their talents. >F1 is the opposite of NASCAR and that's the form of racing I love. I doubt >there's a driver in NASCAR that Schumacher wouldn't completely embarrass in >every race. The two series are world's apart and I can't wait until March >10th.

I hate arrogant little pricks like you. PLONK - James "Gunslinger" Wohlever [email hidden] Techware Computer Services http://techware.gtinsider.com Send ATTACHMENTS (Files) to: [email hidden]

> But yeah, we have no roundabouts here in the USA Seriously?

In article <89h462$fcs$[email hidden]>, "David Shield" <[email hidden]> writes: >may i quote an explanation for why their are no roundabouts in the US - cos >giving way to the right is a worrying thought for your average american :) I negotiate about thirty a day taking service calls in Washington, DC. Now that I've learned they're not there, I should be able to travel much faster, thanks. Don McCorkle Libertarian Motorsports

----- Original Message ----- From: David G Fisher <[email hidden]> > Boring. Low tech. Slow. > The majority of the people who follow the sport are not my type at alltoo. > Beer, crashes, and bad accents are what most of them are about. > The cars are low tech and sloppy. > The drivers look like keg salesman and I doubt their talents. Thank god someone came along to inject some gross generalizations and insults into this debate. I was beginning to think we might have to suffer with an intelligent discussion on this issue, for once. ~daxe

Hmmm . . . Perhaps one way to look at this would be to examine the way in which the Powers That Be in F1 have tried to make that sport more and more TV-friendly over the past decade. I think (my opinion only, of course) that this has to be discussed on at least two levels: hard-core fans who get *really* involved in the whole sport--the strategic decisions made by teams before and during a race as they cope with potential and real variables such as unexpected tire wear, a brightening sun and the rise in track temps., or a "knowledge" of a opposing car or driver's weakness; and the (more important) casual audience (probably bigger--ad revenues, etc.) who "just wanna see the race" and the crashes--or the pit-girls and glamour (ABC's coverage of Monaco, with its strident emphasis on the "prestige" of the place, used to make me near ill--sooo tacky). What I mean here, is that Nascar seems to have its act together: it can appeal to both bases quite easily. The hardcore folks can speculate on when so-and-so's going to pit, or how a sudden yellow flag has thrown a monkey wrench into everyone's plans, the things I mentioned above; while the casual ones can "ooh and ah" at the close racing (not to dismiss it--only to state that it's a more "immediate" attractor than the strategy bit), and, dismaying as it is, hope to see a bit of a smash-up. I think F1 has had a very difficult time appealing to both, and made a very wrong move by appealing to the TV audience by re-implememting re-fueling. Perhaps a right move for Tv, but a wrong move for the sport. Let me explain . . . For me, F1 used to be--before refueling--*extraordinarily* intellectually interesting. The most immense thrill was second-guessing who would conserve their tires best, as the car was SO much heavier during the first part of the race, or who had set their car up best for the most critical parts of the race, as the fuel-load lightened and the handling and track changed. Expert commentators (I'm in the USA so I mention David Hobbes here, and to a slightly lesser degree Derek Daly, as exemplary hosts in this respect) could lay out the options and the stakes, and it was completely fascinating to see how a race unfolded within those parameters. An example: I was just rewatching the 1990 Mexican GP the other night, and the sheer drama of watching Prost (in that lovely violin-bodied 640) start ripping through the field from 13th starting place after about 40% of the race had gone by--he had set his car up to handle absolutely perfectly on a lighter tank, lap after lap he'd reset fastest lap--and simultaneously watching Mansell and Prost catching Senna as Senna's tires went away (he eventually suffered a blow-out; the team had gambled that he could do the whole race w/o a tire stop), and *then* watching Berger (who had stopped for tires very early after running his own absolutely ragged)manage to challenge Nige ferociously during the last couple of laps (maybe some here will remember Berger's wild move on Mansell and then Nige's re-pass on Berger around the *outside* of the Peratalda [sp?] on the penultimate lap)--the tension of it all was completely amazing. But the thing is, without a skilled commentator and a viewer with a little patience and intellectual interest in the strategy, F1 was simply boring to many TV viewers. Soooo . . ., pitstops, TeeVee !, artificial drama, grooved tires--the misplaced emphasis ( I think, anyway--IMO, you know. . .) on getting (all bow down) PASSING back into the game by any means possible. So now we have the sprint races between pit stops for more fuel. (Obviously, I'm oversimplifying here--I realize that there are strategic considerations as teams adjust precisely *when* they'll make a stop, and how that plays out against other team's decisions--but for the viewer, that's opaque: it comes as a surprise, unlike the situation where you know that all the cars have to leave the line with enough fuel on board to last the race.) Everyone screams "passing." But F1 was *never* about trading the lead back and forth. I believe (I may be wrong on this) but there are points awarded in Nascar simply for leading a lap, two laps, etc.?, right? It really is a completely different racing style, or a better word, perhaps, system. I want to be careful here, treading on eggs. I would say, though, that passing in F1 is a more (getting speculative here) permanent endeavor. In short, there's a contradiction between TV's efficacy in attracting casual F1 fans and its ability to satisfy the hard-core F1. That contradiction doesn't seem to be present in Nascar. I'd be interested to know if my own F1-centered experience as a fan is similar to any Nascar fans' experiences. This thought-piece: I apologize for its length and convoluted nature--these are some things I regularly think about in the pre-season. It's a cause for concern, init? --David K., Isolated F1 fan in Nashville, TN "LL" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:VxOu4.1573$[email hidden]... > I know it will make some people jump but where is the fun ? > >

"LL" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:VxOu4.1573$[email hidden]... > I know it will make some people jump but where is the fun ? > > I have no idea. I live in the U.S. and have never been able to force myself to watch a NASCAR race for more than 15 minutes. Boring. Low tech. Slow. Left turn. Straight. Left turn. Straight. Yippeee. The majority of the people who follow the sport are not my type at all too. Beer, crashes, and bad accents are what most of them are about. The cars are low tech and sloppy. The tracks in the series are almost all ovals. It's not that ovals can't be fun to watch occasionally with open wheel cars such as in CART, but not with NASCAR cars. And not EVERY race. The drivers look like keg salesman and I doubt their talents. F1 is the opposite of NASCAR and that's the form of racing I love. I doubt there's a driver in NASCAR that Schumacher wouldn't completely embarrass in every race. The two series are world's apart and I can't wait until March 10th. David G Fisher

I'm an American, not only are most Americans "afraid" to let a car pass on the right, they think it's downright illegal. I know when I took drivers education in high school back in the 80's, it was drilled into our head, "keep to the right unless you are passing a car". And an example....me and a friend are cruising in his daddy's hot rod pickup truck. We haven't been long had our liscenses, so we're doing the typical teen thing of cruising around. Well, we're on a trip to a city north of here, driving on the interstate, we're in the left hand lane and here comes a car in the right hand lane travelling faster than us and is gonna pass us. What does my friend do? Waits till the car gets along side us, hollers out the window "Hey! You can't pass me on the right dumbass!" and he floors it. That hopped up 350 with straight pipe dual exhaust was just a growling as we left the guy in the dust. So there I was, looking at my friend like the idiot he was for doing that, meanwhile we're in excess of 100mph. I guess it was ok for him to break speed laws, just as long as he kept the guy from passing on the right, which is considered "ethical" here in these United States, lol. By the way, a cop having a bad day can ticket you for passing on the right in some places. It's called "wreckless endangerment" or "illegally overtaking another car" or whatever other goofy laws our so called "law enforcement" comes up with. Did you ever wonder, why it is, that law enforcers are also the same people that write these stupid laws? I never knew that was part of their job description. Take these goofy laws, for example. "Laying drag". That means to me, that some guy just walked into a bar wearing a dress (in drag) and was trying to get laid. Nothing to do with cars. "Speed contests" or "Engaging in a speed contest". Well, obviously the cops are hanging out in the wrong places to catch people doing that. They should setup a radar trap on the backstretch of Daytona, or any oval/road course track in the world, and by golly they will finally be able to catch someone taking part in a "speed contest". How silly we Americans are!! But yeah, we have no roundabouts here in the USA because none of us Americans, myself included, have the intelligence to figure out how to drive on one without wrecking. And i think our Euro friend, while replying to your message, meant to say "right hand" turns instead of "left hand turns" when referring to Watkins Glen. Shoot, I'd rather see Nascar run more on road courses myself. And alot less of holding 2 events on the ovals all the time. Run daytona only one time per year, make it mean something. Same with Dega, Pocono, Atlanta, etc. Use 34 individual tracks, instead of the standard 16 tracks twice and the 2 road courses once. I'd like to see 17 ovals and 17 road courses myself, hehe. But that would only happen when hell freezes over. I'd like to see Nascar also run on Laguna Seca and Road Atlanta, in addition to the standard Glen and Sears Point. Anyways, any racing series is always gonna have it's diehard fans. That's all good and healthy and very cool. But relating to Nascar vs Formula 1, they both have their merits. I'm a Nascar fan, so naturally I enjoy watching the boys running doorhandle to doorhandle for a couple hundred laps. And I also enjoy watching the finesse and precision of Formula 1. I seen where someone mentioned the time interval thing and cars spaced out alot in F1. Yeah, sometimes that happens, but it's still a race. Guy in the lead might run on his worn tires for too long and the guy behind catches up and they run wing to wing for a couple laps, that's when it gets interesting especially, hehe. For what it's worth, this past season in F1, I saw everything from the "catepillar" of single file fields on some tracks, all the way up to alot of 2 and 3 wide on alot of tracks. I gotta admit, it takes some serious balls to get 3 wide on some of the F1 tracks. Any Nascar fan should like the first 10 laps of an F1 race if they want to see close quarter and side by side racing. I remember that Malaysian Gran Prix being that way early on, running 2 and 3 wide through the turns even, hehe. Same thing happens in Nascar, just take this last race for example, the "Rock". How many cars finished on the lead lap? Something like 9 to 14? Barely one fourth of the whole field. So unless my fave driver is in that lead pack of cars, it's a boring race to watch for me, cause then my driver is at least 1 or more laps down and out of contention, which is exactly what happened, doh, hehe. So he had no chance, unless someone up front got stupid and caused one of those espn award winning smashups and my driver happened to get through it, hehe. What's the boring race series for me to watch? Indy cars, believe it or not, lol. I think it's a novelty to see them run on ovals, but open wheel cars belong on a road course. I also think it's a trip that Mario Andretti holds the world race speed record for average lap speed, with an amazing 234mph average during qualifying at Michigan. Michigan?? Isn't that a Nascar track? Hmmm, I don't recall a Nascar vehicle breaking the 200mph barrier there yet, hehe. (friendly ribbing of you other Nascar fans ;o) What I would like to see, as far as Indy cars and ovals. Let's see them tame Talladega. If they can do 234mph average over a lap at Michigan, what can/could they do at the almighty Dega? 240? 250? 260?? First off, before Indy folks jump in my case, lol, I think Indy belong on road courses more as a matter of safety, rather than a skill type issue. Too many drivers have been killed, along with spectators at some tracks. I know when Ayrton Senna got taken from us, shocking that I watched it and thought "Damn, that looked bad, but he'll be ok", but my heart broke when they updated his tragic condition later on. And after seeing the latest young man die, Greg Moore, during an Indy car event on an oval, I'd rather them stick to road courses where hopefully they'll be slowing for a curve if they happen to get in a wreck. F1 sure seems to be alot safer in recent years, Nascar too, but I'd be in favor of the idea going around about putting bodies on Indy cars when running on ovals. Even if it means they're running nothing more than a GT type car. At least then the driver has a chance with a full roll cage and extra body/framework between him and those bare concrete walls. Anyways, getting bummed out here, have fun with the debate folks, not picking any one side in this issue, just trying to relate to both sides in the hopes some common sense will come out of it. ;o) Destin James Wohlever <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> On the following date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 21:20:47 -0000, said person(s) > "David Shield" <[email hidden]> stated: > > Dave, you sure do contradict yourself. > > First you say: > >why their are no roundabouts in the US - > > Then in this message you say: > >i know the glen has left hand turns > > Then you contradict your first message with: > >but then it isnt an oval is it. > > Now, do you agree that there are in fact non-oval racing in NASCAR or > not? > Make up your mind. > > > And if this doesn't sound like you think us Americans are afraid to > turn right then I don't know what your smokin': > >giving way to the right is a worrying thought for your average american > > > - James "Gunslinger" Wohlever > [email hidden] > > Techware Computer Services > http://techware.gtinsider.com > > Send ATTACHMENTS (Files) to: > [email hidden]

Nascar is where we send retired crap f1 drivers to. :-) .

Seriously?

On the following date: Wed, 01 Mar 2000 06:09:55 GMT, said person(s) I hate arrogant little ***s like you. PLONK - James "Gunslinger" Wohlever Techware Computer Services http://techware.gtinsider.com Send ATTACHMENTS (Files) to:

Nascar is where we send retired ***f1 drivers to. :-) .

"Mark Hewitt" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > > But yeah, we have no roundabouts here in the USA > > Seriously? > Well here in Canada (and in the States, I think) we called them "traffic circles" and we used to have a bunch of them. They took up a lot of valuable real estate (prime sales sites!! :) ) and were becoming obsolete in the early 1960's as traffic density soared. Since most of our cities were laid out as a grid work originally the traffic light controlled intersection worked better for the mid level intersections with cloverleaf overpasses working best on major arterial roads. David

[email hidden] wrote: > > Did you ever wonder, why it is, that law enforcers are also > the same people that write these stupid laws? I never knew that was part of > their job description. > WTF you talking about here? Think you need to go back & take your civics and/or government course over again pal. Police just *enforce* whatever laws are there. They do NOT write them. Sometimes they selectively enforce them, to be true, but that's the extent of it. -- /Chuck Kandler #70 /ChuckK on Won.net & WinVROC /K&S Racing http://www.fortunecity.com/silverstone/thepits/195 /The box said "Windows 0x5f or better", so I installed LINUX!

daxe wrote:

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> > ----- Original Message ----- > From: David G Fisher <[email hidden]> > > Boring. Low tech. Slow. > > The majority of the people who follow the sport are not my type at all > too. > > Beer, crashes, and bad accents are what most of them are about. > > The cars are low tech and sloppy. > > The drivers look like keg salesman and I doubt their talents. > > Thank god someone came along to inject some gross generalizations and > insults into this debate. I was beginning to think we might have to suffer > with an intelligent discussion on this issue, for once. > > ~daxe

ROTFLMAO!!! -- /Chuck Kandler #70 /ChuckK on Won.net & WinVROC /K&S Racing http://www.fortunecity.com/silverstone/thepits/195 /The box said "Windows 0x5f or better", so I installed LINUX!

ok just to clear this up (and i'm not posting again in this thread) the giving way to the right thing was a joke i read somewhere. on a roundabout you have to give way to the right. it refers to giving in to right wing politics. ok oh and i did mean right hand turns :0 this is the end dave James Wohlever <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> On the following date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 21:20:47 -0000, said person(s) > "David Shield" <[email hidden]> stated: > > Dave, you sure do contradict yourself. > > First you say: > >why their are no roundabouts in the US - > > Then in this message you say: > >i know the glen has left hand turns > > Then you contradict your first message with: > >but then it isnt an oval is it. > > Now, do you agree that there are in fact non-oval racing in NASCAR or > not? > Make up your mind. > > > And if this doesn't sound like you think us Americans are afraid to > turn right then I don't know what your smokin': > >giving way to the right is a worrying thought for your average american > > > - James "Gunslinger" Wohlever > [email hidden] > > Techware Computer Services > http://techware.gtinsider.com > > Send ATTACHMENTS (Files) to: > [email hidden]

David G Fisher skrev i meldingen ...

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> >I have no idea. > >I live in the U.S. and have never been able to force myself to watch a >NASCAR race for more than 15 minutes. > >Boring. Low tech. Slow. Left turn. Straight. Left turn. Straight. Yippeee. > >The majority of the people who follow the sport are not my type at all too. >Beer, crashes, and bad accents are what most of them are about. > >The cars are low tech and sloppy. The tracks in the series are almost all >ovals. It's not that ovals can't be fun to watch occasionally with open >wheel cars such as in CART, but not with NASCAR cars. And not EVERY race. > >The drivers look like keg salesman and I doubt their talents. > >F1 is the opposite of NASCAR and that's the form of racing I love. I doubt >there's a driver in NASCAR that Schumacher wouldn't completely embarrass in >every race. The two series are world's apart and I can't wait until March >10th. > >David G Fisher >

David, Schu was quoted that he'd never do NASCAR. Was too dangerous for him he said :-) And what's the thing you love about men acting (and looking) like girls? I have seen many of the F1 drivers of the eighties. 1,60 metres. 60 kilos. It just isn't normal IMO. <g> Mmm, Schu in the Jacuzzi, carefully studying his flexed bicep in the mirror....rrrracing! Anyway, your trolling was only partially successful. I just don't get the "I like this hate that" attitude. If you can't enjoy several forms of motorsport, you're not a fan, not even an enthusiast. I enjoy F1 (although I think the past couple of seasons have been a bit naff), CART, NASCAR, Sportscars, Rallying...but I have seen a lot of races that rate way above any F1, Cart or NASCAR race. Guess where? At my local track Rudskogen (famous!!!). At a wet and grotty Mallory Park. Or local boys racing Fiats at Mondello in Ireland. Or at the Southside Speedway Modified races. Not to mention special saloons, lower Formulae-classes. Or even Rallycross! Racing is what it is about. A scenario I love just as much as any F1 race: Three lads I have never heard of, local track, modified saloons. 20 laps. Trading paint, cutting kerbs, swapping positions. On the knife edge, engines screaming their guts out. Dirt flying, crowd biting nails and yelling...Cars? One Holden Commodore, ex AU GpA, One Sierra Cosworth, Ex BTCC, one Volvo 240 (trademark of scandinavian racing!). Three brilliant drivers. Race is settled in the last corner where they all swap places, Holden leaving rubber all the way up to the finish line, Volvo pushing the Sierra wide, and in the end helps it cross the line first, 3 first cars cross the line about 0.5 secs apart. Oh, and that were just the first 3 runners... People just don't know what they're missing! Go a bit deeper thatn the Hollywood F1 scene, please! Matt /rant

OK i said i wouldn't post again in this thread, BUT everyone is entitled to their opinions, but IMHO this is leaving behind what has been a good debate in favour of verbal abuse. Please don't, it does the group no good and doesnt really give that good an impression of NASCAR fans. dave James Wohlever <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> > I hate arrogant little pricks like you. > > PLONK > > > - James "Gunslinger" Wohlever > [email hidden] > > Techware Computer Services > http://techware.gtinsider.com > > Send ATTACHMENTS (Files) to: > [email hidden]

That idiotic reply does not represent all American's viewpoints on the subject of oval vs. road racing, BTW. Or Brits vs. Yanks for that matter. :) I, for one, love and appreciate both. Racing is fun and challenging no matter how you do it. -- ----------------------------------- Morgan Vincent Wooten mailto:[email hidden] http://members.tripod.com/~morganv/ ----------------------------------- James Wohlever <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > On the following date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 18:44:51 -0000, said person(s) > "David Shield" <[email hidden]> stated: > > >may i quote an explanation for why their are no roundabouts in the US - cos > >giving way to the right is a worrying thought for your average american :) > > > >maybe the same could be applied to your tendency to go round in left hand > >circles? > > > I'm going to ignore the snobbishness of that remark. > ...ok, I'm not.. I'm really starting to hate Brits with there arrogant > remarks. > > > Watkins Glen has right hand turns. > ....Searspoint too.. > > And they biggest reason us "scared" Americans like Oval racing? > Because we like to go fast during the whole race. > Not slow down and breath for turns like you F1 folks do. > > - James Wohlever > #98 Techware Motorsports >

Daxe, that was an excellent reply and pretty much summed up my feelings as well. I've TRIED to watch CART, IRL etc and I've found myself lasting no longer than 10 minutes as it for me was too boring. You're right about the drivers racing against the track, for some people that's great but for me it doesn't do anything. I'm not saying it's not difficult because it is, it's just not entertaining for me. I'm not even a big drag racing fan, they're cool to watch but it's over way too fast. :( daxe wrote:

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> > From: LL <[email hidden]> > Subject: What is the interest of oval racing ? > > > I know it will make some people jump but where is the fun ? > > I am not the most eloquent person on this topic, but maybe I can share with > you some of my observations as a person who enjoys NASCAR coverage on TV but > wouldn't bother to put on an F1 race (or would put it on and fall asleep or > ignore it). Go ahead and call me names or tell me I'm ignorant or whatever, > but these are just opinions, so they can't really be *wrong*. > > NASCAR races on road courses a few times each year and I find those races to > be very entertaining. I make sure not to miss Sears Point and Watkins Glen. > On the other hand, I couldn't be bothered to see CART race on a road circuit > (or an oval), so that says there is something about the cars that attracts > me. > > In the case of open wheel cars, they don't look much like cars to me and the > manufacturers associated with the vehicles often have little or no resonance > in my mind. Arrows? Minardi? Sauber? Jordan? Benetton? Huh? A French person > may be able to get excited about a Peugot, but to me it is a wheezy, ugly > little economy car where Chevy or Ford or Pontiac are cars I see every day > and have known my whole life. Sure, they also make wheezy ugly economy > cars, but they also make performance cars that have been part of my cultural > experience since I was a little kid. There is no such thing as a 'Williams' > automobile, so cheering for it to beat a BAR kind of loses relevance for me. > I will never own a Ferrari or a McLaren, so it's difficult to care about > either of them. I just can't relate. > > I also enjoy drag racing (which has no corners at all.) Interestingly, I > would rather watch Funny Cars, ProStocks or even stock racing rather than > Top Fuel. This would seem to follow the trend of closed-body cars being > more interesting to me. > > My best friend is a big F1 fan and we have had our spats about NASCAR vs. > F1. He seems to be very focused on the driver racing 'against' the track. > It is almost like F1 cars could run the races by themselves and just compare > times afterwards. It seems that F1 is rarely about a car or driver racing > against another. In NASCAR, the action is almost constant and in very close > quarters. Near the front of the pack, there is often driver interaction and > passing going on at a fever pitch. In some of the F1 racing I have been > exposed to, I get the impression that the biggest excitement is from sitting > on the edge of your seat wondering if a car is going to break down when it's > 15 seconds ahead of everyone else. > > NASCAR is a spectacle. The cars are flashy, the personalities of the > drivers and crew chiefs and car owners are thrust into the spotlight as > well. They all speak the same language and the crowd can understand them. > The big sponsor graphics splashed on the cars add to the fun. Many of the > products advertised are used by the viewers so there's another connection to > the viewers world. > > Being able to see the whole race, rather than a series of seemingly > unconnected corners, is also important to sustaining the excitement. Cars > crawling around corners in the rain at 35 MPH is not exciting, even if they > are trying to pass one another. Cars pushed to their limit, driving at 180, > 190 or 200 mph for long periods of time are RACING, not just driving. > Sustained speed. > > It seems like oval racing is a largely American fascination, too. Part of > the lack of interest in F1 may be chalked up to the tracks F1 runs on being > too far away and not names anyone knows. I have GPL and appreciate > everything about it that's excellent from a driving standpoint, but I don't > care about Kyalami and Zandvoort and Silverstone and Monza and whatever > because I can't relate to where they are and didn't grow up hearing about > them. I also don't care about the cars or drivers in GPL, so the whole > thing loses fascination for me. It isn't the road course aspect, either, > because I love SCGT (again, closed body cars.) > > I dunno, sorry for the disorganized presentation. The original question > seemed to come from someone who genuinely doesn't understand why people > would want to see cars driving in a circle. I think the answer is that they > like the spectacle of the event, the close, competitive racing and can > relate to the drivers, teams and tracks. I am really only speaking for > myself and making some broad suppositions about other people, so take it for > what it's worth. > > ~daxe

XLjunkie wrote: Great point. Just as the Europeans have football (soccer to us Yanks) and Americans have American Football. Between the two, soccer really IS football but that's just my opinion. :)

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> I believe that the original poster of this thread is from France, so i can > understand his point of view, it's a common European thought. > It's easy: Europe has F1, USA has Nascar and no discussion's ever gonna > change that.... > > -- XLjunkie-- > "The Utility Pit" > -- http://utility-pit.homepage.com -- > > "Jan Verschueren" <[email hidden]> schreef in bericht > news:[email hidden]... > > I'll borrow a line from the "F14 Fleet Defender" (flightsim). > > > > "If you're not sweating these carrier landings, you don't understand the > > problem." > > > > There's more to it than meets the eye. You cannot appreciate something > done > > right until you truly know how hard it is. > > > > Jan. > > ---- > > LL <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:VxOu4.1573$[email hidden]... > > > I know it will make some people jump but where is the fun ? > > > > > > > > > >

"David Erb" <[email hidden]> wrote > Well here in Canada (and in the States, I think) we called them "traffic > circles" and we used to have a bunch of them We never had them in the province of Qu�bec, but of course we aren't really Canadians ;) It's just the way that different societies regulated the transportation system. With our two major cities being 1) on an island and 2) on a cliff, we never had the use for them. My only wish is to -never- have to get around one of them, as I simply don't know how to handle them. I figure myself in a slapstick movie doing round circles without ending. ;-D -- -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> -- May the Downforce be with you... -- http://www.WeRace.net -- People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world.

A great perspective, Matthew--one that we probably should bear in mind. --DK "Matthew B.Knutsen" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:92dv4.3867$[email hidden]... [snip]

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> Race is settled in the last corner where they all swap places, > Holden leaving rubber all the way up to the finish line, Volvo pushing the > Sierra wide, and in the end helps it cross the line first, 3 first cars > cross the line about 0.5 secs apart. > > Oh, and that were just the first 3 runners... > > People just don't know what they're missing! Go a bit deeper thatn the > Hollywood F1 scene, please! > > Matt /rant > >

Hi James, We're not all full of arrogant remarks... i'm a Brit and absolutely love Nascar. The problem is that it just doesn't get any coverage over here except via satellite or cable and not everyone has those at the moment. Eurosport used to cover every race for us but apparently they have run into problems getting the rights from each individual track to cover races (at least that was the explanation Eurosport gave me last year) so we now just get to see them every now and then. Sky Sports had both the WC and Busch Daytona races last week and this weeks Busch race at the Rock. For some reason they cover the Busch races more than WC (that's not meant as a slight on the Busch series as I enjoy them as well but if I had a choice I would prefer to see the WC races instead). My wife and kids always groan and try to wind me up about this 'roundabout racing' as they like to call it whenever the races come on but recently I got them to just sit there and watch for longer than 5 minutes and they picked up on how exciting it can really be. In particular the fact that so much is going on all the time in each race was in stark contrast for them when compared to some F1 races where unfortunately you can watch the start then go away and get on with something else for a while without missing too much (although that did improve a bit last year. My own interest in Nascar came as a result of the original Nascar Racing sim (did that one come out before Bill Elliotts Nascar game?? because I have that one as well...). I started playing that and was immediately hooked and haven't looked back since. In fact all my motor racing interest has been sparked by computer games. F1GP1 got me into F1 and after having so much fun with that I picked up Indy 500 The Simulation (oh the memories.....) and subsequently got interested in Indycars. Then came the Nascar sim and onwards and upwards with every other sim that has came out since. My youngest daughter even likes a spell behind the wheel in Nascar 3 every now and then, just hope it doesn't start to impinge on my sim time.... Peter Hooper James Wohlever <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > On the following date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 18:44:51 -0000, said person(s) > "David Shield" <[email hidden]> stated: > > >may i quote an explanation for why their are no roundabouts in the US -cos > >giving way to the right is a worrying thought for your average american:)

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> > > >maybe the same could be applied to your tendency to go round in left hand > >circles? > > > I'm going to ignore the snobbishness of that remark. > ...ok, I'm not.. I'm really starting to hate Brits with there arrogant > remarks. > > > Watkins Glen has right hand turns. > ....Searspoint too.. > > And they biggest reason us "scared" Americans like Oval racing? > Because we like to go fast during the whole race. > Not slow down and breath for turns like you F1 folks do. > > - James Wohlever > #98 Techware Motorsports >

: to wait at a red light. And I was tempted to steal a roundabout sign : with "Hatfield and the North" written on it (one of the great Canterbury : bands -they took their name from those signs), but I digress.... My favourite was the sign pointing to "The Slaughters". Such an unfortunate name for a picturesque set of towns. It almost ended up in the trunk of my rental car, but common sense prevailed. Stephen

:> Well here in Canada (and in the States, I think) we called them "traffic :> circles" and we used to have a bunch of them : We never had them in the province of Quebec, but of course we aren't : really Canadians ;) : It's just the way that different societies regulated the transportation : system. With our two major cities being 1) on an island and 2) on a : cliff, we never had the use for them. My only wish is to -never- have to : get around one of them, as I simply don't know how to handle them. Actually, the traffic circles are brilliant. After moving to Switzerland, I started to really appreciate them. Anyone who can tie their shoes can navigate a roundabout, even the triple lane monsters in the UK, with traffic on the wrong side of the road. They are faster and safer. Canada needs more of them. Now, crazy are the unregulated four-way intersections in Ottawa. No stop signs, no yield signs... nothing but broken glass. Stephen

Now I understand all those jokes about American drivers in the UK, getting stuck at the roundabouts!. I don't know how you get anywhere without roundabouts personally. Where I live there must be at least 10 of them within a mile of my house. Even 'mini' roundabouts (where they just paint a circle in the middle of the road!. There is one 'quadruple lane monster' just a couple of miles from my house (actually its the one next to the angel of the north, if you've heard of that). It controls the traffic coming off the main north-south motorway going into Gateshead. It's a great thrill coming down the hill towards it 40mph on my bicycle juding the gap in the traffic just right, into the roundabout accross 4 lanes into the middle, past 2 exits back accross four lanes again and out. Great fun!. -- Mark Hewitt http://www.worldmotorsport.com

I am a racing fan. I want to watch racing. And I think the nature of a lot of road courses these days doesn't encourage the drivers to race against each other. (Call me cynical, but I reckon all these chicanes are to slow the cars just enough for you to get a good look at the sponsors' ads) I love NASCAR because there is always something happening. I gave up watching F1 once they reintroduced refuelling- now you can count the on-track passes in a race on one hand, and it's rarely at the front. That's not racing. If I want to see tactics, I'll watch chess. Having said that, I do watch CART now and again, but somehow, the adrenaline buzz, as a spectator, isn't the same. When It comes to sims, it don't matter what course type it is or what series, because the main thing is to enjoy the driving...

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>Daxe, that was an excellent reply and pretty much summed up my feelings >as well. I've TRIED to watch CART, IRL etc and I've found myself lasting >no longer than 10 minutes as it for me was too boring. >You're right about the drivers racing against the track, for some people >that's great but for me it doesn't do anything. I'm not saying it's not >difficult because it is, it's just not entertaining for me. I'm not even >a big drag racing fan, they're cool to watch but it's over way too fast. >:(

<snip>

LOL My mistake ! Of course in P.Q. the name would have been eloquently put in French. I recall being told as a child about a big circle in the west end of Montreal but the other kid may have been bragging :) As for Quebec city any circles would be more up and down than round and round particularly in the old city area. My limited exposure to traffic circles was mostly fun coupled with the odd moment of gut clenching fear as some clown cut across right in front of me ( or maybe thats trying to get across the top of Toronto..... :) ) David > > Well here in Canada (and in the States, I think) we called them "traffic > > circles" and we used to have a bunch of them > We never had them in the province of Qubec, but of course we aren't really

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> Canadians ;) > It's just the way that different societies regulated the transportation > system. With our two major cities being 1) on an island and 2) on a > cliff, we never had the use for them. My only wish is to -never- have to > get around one of them, as I simply don't know how to handle them. > I figure myself in a slapstick movie doing round circles without ending. > ;-D > -- > -- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard> > -- May the Downforce be with you... > -- http://www.WeRace.net > -- People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't

realise > how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world.

juding the gap in the traffic just right, into the roundabout >accross 4 lanes into the middle, past 2 exits back accross four >lanes again and out. Great fun!. ok kinda off topic but this is the real point in roundabouts, that 90% of the time you can go faster round them on you bike than in a car. Also i wanna get caught on speed camera on my bike. enough off topic stuff now dave

You mean Schumacher on an oval?? He has enough trouble keeping away from other cars in F1, what chance would he have in a Nascar race where cars a inches apart lap after lap ;O) Peter Hooper

Actually, I thought I was pretty kind compared to the things I've heard said by others about NASCAR over the years. I didn't even mention how NASCAR and the WWF are often put in the same category. Sorry, I don't seem to want to take the time anymore to discuss a stupid subject in an intelligent manner. David G Fisher

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> ----- Original Message ----- > > Boring. Low tech. Slow. > > The majority of the people who follow the sport are not my type at all > too. > > Beer, crashes, and bad accents are what most of them are about. > > The cars are low tech and sloppy. > > The drivers look like keg salesman and I doubt their talents. > Thank god someone came along to inject some gross generalizations and > insults into this debate. I was beginning to think we might have to

suffer > with an intelligent discussion on this issue, for once. > ~daxe

Yes, it's always hard to make a 180-degree switch one's habits, isn't it? Go back to your usual tactic, and save us the shock. --DK [snip] Sorry, I don't seem to want to take the time anymore to discuss a stupid subject in an intelligent manner. David G Fisher

On the following date: Wed, 1 Mar 2000 10:20:16 -0000, said person(s) "Joe Murphy" <[email hidden]> stated: >Nascar is where we send retired crap f1 drivers to. :-) Yeah you can tell which ones are from F1. They suck at NASCAR. James "Gunslinger" Wohlever "The object of war is not to die for your country but to make the other bastard die for his" -Gen. George S. Patton Jr. http://techware.gtinsider.com

Sim racers shouldn't question real F1 drivers manhood. :-P Yes, I know you race real cars too. Someone asked for opinions and I gave mine. There's only so much time in a day. I LOVE NFL football, but I can't bear to watch a college football game. I don't need to feel that many forms of racing are legit in order to be an enthusiast. I like every form of racing you just described (not real familiar with Rallycross) except NASCAR. I've NEVER said anything to the contrary. It's just that F1 has what I enjoy most. The cars are amazing and at the cutting edge of technology and engineering. I love their speed and precision handling. The drivers are the most talented. The tracks. The rivalries. It's history. And yes, I enjoy the atmosphere surrounding F1, including the beautiful women :-) . BTW, I have raced motocross motorcycles in the past (and enjoyed street bikes) so dirty racing is nothing foreign to me. David G Fisher

David G Fisher skrev i meldingen ... Well, I see your point, sorta :-) (football/soccer is naff! hehehe!) Yup, I know about the bikes, and IMO, you should get back up on one ASAP! Either that, or send the remains to me! Oh, and it's not really important to get into rallycross, it's turned into a shambles lately with only a handful of competitors on a higher level..... The atmosphere of F1 is something special, but I've enjoyed strolling the paddocks of GP.C races, seeing drivers, cars... I once went to Nazareth, PA for a CART race, and for a silly sum (think it was $10) I got a paddock pass. Collected autographs from several drivers, and got to watch the cars up really close. Only chance I get to do that with F1 is at the Goodwood FOS :( Still, I guess as long as nutters like EJ and EI are still in F1, there is hope... Matt

David G Fisher skrev i meldingen ... The World Wildlife Foundation, David? 8) Matt

In article <6uYu4.1517$[email hidden]>, "Dean Williams" <[email hidden]> writes: >As for the sportsmanship thing, anyone rember Sterling Marlin's crewman >leaving a wrench in the roof one race, and he stopped at the end of pit lane >a another team ran out and pulled it out. He surely would have gone down a >lap or two if the team hadn't pulled out the wrech, but the team that pulled >it could have gained positions on him if they would have left it. > I don't remember that particular incident, but I've seen teams loan tools, or give extra tires from a car that's retired from the race. Considering the intense competition they're under, I'm surprised these things DO happen... Eldred -- Tiger Stadium R.I.P. 1912-1999 Own Grand Prix Legends? Goto http://gpl.gamestats.com/vroc Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

Which F1 drivers exactly? I thought most of them went to CART, and I wouldn't say Andretti, Rahal & co were crap Joe Murphy wrote in message <89iqds$kvp$[email hidden]>... >Nascar is where we send retired crap f1 drivers to. :-) >. > >

It happens all the time in NASCAR plate races. If you have to pit under green, you want some else to pit with you so you have another car to draft back up to speed with. -- don [|]-(_)-[|] "David Karr" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:89v1t6$5er$[email hidden]... > Um, "and make deals to even pit together"?? I'd like to hear more--but this > sounds odd. > > --DK > > "Joel Willstein" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:89ttu7$jog$[email hidden]... > > > > > I do remember seeing that on TV. Nascar teams help out each other > with > > everything; engines, tranys, & parts. They will work together to gain > > positions on the track and make deals to even pit together. Never heard of > > any of this happening in Cart or F1. > > > > Joel Willstein > > [email hidden] > > > >

EldredP <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > In article <6uYu4.1517$[email hidden]>, "Dean Williams" > <[email hidden]> writes: > > >As for the sportsmanship thing, anyone rember Sterling Marlin's crewman > >leaving a wrench in the roof one race, and he stopped at the end of pitlane > >a another team ran out and pulled it out. He surely would have gone downa > >lap or two if the team hadn't pulled out the wrech, but the team thatpulled > >it could have gained positions on him if they would have left it. > > > > I don't remember that particular incident, but I've seen teams loan tools,or > give extra tires from a car that's retired from the race. Considering the > intense competition they're under, I'm surprised these things DO happen... > > Eldred Eldred, I do remember seeing that on TV. Nascar teams help out each other with everything; engines, tranys, & parts. They will work together to gain positions on the track and make deals to even pit together. Never heard of any of this happening in Cart or F1. Joel Willstein [email hidden]

On Wed, 01 Mar 2000 06:09:55 GMT, "David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote: >The drivers look like keg salesman and I doubt their talents. Keg salesmen with, in some cases, $100 million dollar bank accounts... (PS- if you are suggesting NASCAR racers are out of shape, keep in mind that Jackie Stewart said his brief experience in a stock car changed his impression of the sport- it was so gruelling, so physically exhausting, that he aquired a deep respect for the sports athletes.) WC NASCAR drivers are clearly talented- the fact is, they may be, on average, more talented than F1 drivers, when you come down to it. Why? Because NASCAR has so many levels and divisions- so many ladders to climb, and very few ways of bypassing those ladders. Every region of the US has its own NASCAR series- and even below that, there are thousands of stock car races each year outside the series. Meanwhile, in F1, while admittedly the top drivers are world class, you can also be rich and buy a ride in the premier series (true with CART too). That doesn't work so well in NASCAR, basically because there is little to hide behind if you are a bad driver. In F1 (and also to some extent CART), you can never tell exactly if a driver sucks, or just his car. In NASCAR, it is clearly obvious if you are no good, because of car standardization- the whole pack should be able to race more or less together- and I mean, inches from each other, tactically swapping places constatly. There is no comfort zone, and there are 75,000 guys (some already famous from other NASCAR series) ready to take your job. There are also 2 or 3 times as many races per year as in CART or F1 I can't believe you are inspiring me to defend NASCAR! >F1 is the opposite of NASCAR and that's the form of racing I love. I doubt >there's a driver in NASCAR that Schumacher wouldn't completely embarrass in >every race. The two series are world's apart and I can't wait until March >10th. Certainly in a straight line, Tony Schumacher would indeed embarass everyone- F1 or NASCAR.

Thanks for your clearly heartfelt observations. Very interesting.

Um, "and make deals to even pit together"?? I'd like to hear more--but this sounds odd. --DK "Joel Willstein" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:89ttu7$jog$[email hidden]... > > > I do remember seeing that on TV. Nascar teams help out each otherwith

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> everything; engines, tranys, & parts. They will work together to gain > positions on the track and make deals to even pit together. Never heard of > any of this happening in Cart or F1. > > Joel Willstein > [email hidden] >

Interesting; thanks. --DK "don hodgdon" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:89v62n$7p$[email hidden]...

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> It happens all the time in NASCAR plate races. If you have to pit under > green, you want some else to pit with you so you have another car to draft > back up to speed with. > -- > don > > [|]-(_)-[|] > > > > "David Karr" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:89v1t6$5er$[email hidden]... > > Um, "and make deals to even pit together"?? I'd like to hear more--but > this > > sounds odd. > > > > --DK > > > > "Joel Willstein" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:89ttu7$jog$[email hidden]... > > > > > > > I do remember seeing that on TV. Nascar teams help out each other > > with > > > everything; engines, tranys, & parts. They will work together to gain > > > positions on the track and make deals to even pit together. Never

heard

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> of > > > any of this happening in Cart or F1. > > > > > > Joel Willstein > > > [email hidden] > > > > > > > > >

Mapson, you are healed my brother! Say Amen! You've seen the light, a true convert... hehe J/K Sorry, just had to... :)

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> >The drivers look like keg salesman and I doubt their talents. > Keg salesmen with, in some cases, $100 million dollar bank accounts... > (PS- if you are suggesting NASCAR racers are out of shape, keep in > mind that Jackie Stewart said his brief experience in a stock car > changed his impression of the sport- it was so gruelling, so > physically exhausting, that he aquired a deep respect for the sports > athletes.) > WC NASCAR drivers are clearly talented- the fact is, they may be, on > average, more talented than F1 drivers, when you come down to it. Why? > Because NASCAR has so many levels and divisions- so many ladders to > climb, and very few ways of bypassing those ladders. Every region of > the US has its own NASCAR series- and even below that, there are > thousands of stock car races each year outside the series. Meanwhile, > in F1, while admittedly the top drivers are world class, you can also > be rich and buy a ride in the premier series (true with CART too). > That doesn't work so well in NASCAR, basically because there is little > to hide behind if you are a bad driver. In F1 (and also to some extent > CART), you can never tell exactly if a driver sucks, or just his car. > In NASCAR, it is clearly obvious if you are no good, because of car > standardization- the whole pack should be able to race more or less > together- and I mean, inches from each other, tactically swapping > places constatly. There is no comfort zone, and there are 75,000 guys > (some already famous from other NASCAR series) ready to take your job. > There are also 2 or 3 times as many races per year as in CART or F1 > I can't believe you are inspiring me to defend NASCAR! > >F1 is the opposite of NASCAR and that's the form of racing I love. I doubt > >there's a driver in NASCAR that Schumacher wouldn't completely embarrass in > >every race. The two series are world's apart and I can't wait until March > >10th. > Certainly in a straight line, Tony Schumacher would indeed embarass > everyone- F1 or NASCAR.

Well, it did happen a couple of years back when Williams and McLaren sort of worked together for Jacques Villeneuve to win the World Championship at Jerez (I think). From what I remember McLaren agreed to keep out of the race at the front so as not to risk JV getting into an incident, but once Schumacher failed to punt JV off halfway through the race and it was clear he was going to win the Championship he had to allow the 2 McLarens past for a 1-2 which incidently gave Hakkinen his first ever F1 victory. There was a fair bit of arguing as to whether this arrangement was legal or not and recordings of the conversation between McLaren and Williams were scrutinsed to find out whether anything untoward had actually taken place. In fact in F1 even teamwork between drivers of the same team is sometimes frowned upon.. just look back to Coulthard allowing Hakkinen through for the win at Melbourne a couple of years back, and the arguments about the practice of Irvine or Coulthard trying to slow down Hakkinen or Schumacher to allow their team mate to build up a lead at some races over the last couple of years. Peter Hooper Joel Willstein <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:89ttu7$jog$[email hidden]...

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> > EldredP <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > In article <6uYu4.1517$[email hidden]>, "Dean Williams" > > <[email hidden]> writes: > > > > >As for the sportsmanship thing, anyone rember Sterling Marlin's crewman > > >leaving a wrench in the roof one race, and he stopped at the end of pit > lane > > >a another team ran out and pulled it out. He surely would have gone

down

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> a > > >lap or two if the team hadn't pulled out the wrech, but the team that > pulled > > >it could have gained positions on him if they would have left it. > > > > > > > I don't remember that particular incident, but I've seen teams loan

tools, > or > > give extra tires from a car that's retired from the race. Consideringthe > > intense competition they're under, I'm surprised these things DOhappen... > > > > Eldred > > Eldred, > > I do remember seeing that on TV. Nascar teams help out each otherwith

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> everything; engines, tranys, & parts. They will work together to gain > positions on the track and make deals to even pit together. Never heard of > any of this happening in Cart or F1. > > Joel Willstein > [email hidden] >

>but if you want to watch an >actual race, I wouldn't suggest watching F1. Which shows that you've never watched F1 :-) Seriously though, why is everyone sticking to these basic opinions? In general, us Europeans think of NASCAR as a matter of "foot-down, turn left" whilst you Americans think of F1 as "No racing, just go against the clock". Both ideas are totally wrong. -- Cheers! Graeme Nash

> For me, the most boring thing in the world to do is sit in a hot, metal > grandstand, or my own couch for that matter, and watch race cars go roundin > circles. I like walking the fences, checking out each corner from all the > possible angles, seeing how each driver and chassis handles differentturns > and surfaces, how they perform under braking and acceleration. I want to > look into Mikey's eyes as he struggles through the hairpin at Long Beachand > the smoke pour off of Bernard's Michelins as he brakes the Panoz for the > Corkscrew at Laguna. However, I would never put down another race fan for > his own preferences just because I don't enjoy it. All the things you described about F1 or road racing are things that deal with watching a driver negotiate a track and nothing about having to actually race anybody. You can see all that in a test session. Watching a driver negotiate turns can be facsinating, but if you want to watch an actual race, I wouldn't suggest watching F1. Tracy Dean

The last time I seriously watched F1 on the tele was when Nikki Lauda (sp?) was cleaning up. F1 does not get much television exposure in the states, these days. Seems everyone wants to watch, Floor it and turn left. Since I am working middle class, trips to Europe to catch an F1 race seem slim at best. Jim

OK, let's see how many passes for the lead there are in Austrailia and at Atlanta this weekend. bob

:>Seriously though, why is everyone sticking to these basic opinions? In :>general, us Europeans think of NASCAR as a matter of "foot-down, turn :>left" whilst you Americans think of F1 as "No racing, just go against :>the clock". :> : OK, let's see how many passes for the lead there are in : Austrailia and at Atlanta this weekend. By that measure the Tour de France is the most interesting form of racing. -- Richard G. Clegg Only the mind is waving Networks and Non-Linear Dynamics Group Dept. of Mathematics, Uni. of York www: http://manor.york.ac.uk/top.html

> needs more of them. Now, crazy are the unregulated four-way intersections > in Ottawa. No stop signs, no yield signs... nothing but broken glass. What intersection(s) would that be? (I've lived in Ottawa for 30+ years) Randy Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy.

But that's not the point, is it? -- Cheers! Graeme Nash

Depends whether you are in the race or watching. Personally I hate to watch a runaway race where there is not much passing or running close, but if I am racing I would rather blow the field away then have a close race. Its just a ego thing, tho close races are more fun from a drivers stand point. Dave

NASCAR gets beaten down. That is because it sucks. Just kidding. What on earth do they have in common? Big, fat fans? F1 fans are slim- I'll give you that. But smelly! first you need to take the time.

On Fri, 10 Mar 2000 16:37:12 +0000, Graeme Nash >>OK, let's see how many passes for the lead there are in >>Austrailia and at Atlanta this weekend. >But that's not the point, is it? close racing is exciting. There are races in F1 where the podium drivers might as well have just extended qualifying. (In fact, that is nearly every race I do online. ALmost wish GPL had yellow flags! ) That is rarer in CART, and nonexistent in NASCAR.

On Thu, 02 Mar 2000 09:48:13 +0000, Mark Hewitt >Now I understand all those jokes about American drivers in the UK, >getting stuck at the roundabouts!. They are just looking for a good draft

seemed pretty clear JV's car was, either through Shumie's hit or something else, completely out of whack- it didn't seem like he had much choice but let MH and DC through (or else threaten his own championship, because they- with much less to lose- were going to try passes).

Please, enough about traffic circles in Switzerland. My entire family, over a period of 4 and a half years, perished in Swiss traffic circles. That is over 23 people. This is why I can't watch Rockingham or Wilkesboro- they remind me too much of Swiss traffic circles.

I agree completely that F1 does have its boring races, but there is another side to that. Much as I hate to agree with (FIA President) Max Mosley, races where the passing is "automatic" become no more exciting than races where there is no passing at all. Look then at races like Austria or France last year, or most races at Spa or someplace, and tell us that F1 is boring :-) BTW I enjoy NASCAR too, I own N2 and N3 and watch all the races I can on TV, so I'm not knocking it :-) -- Cheers! Graeme Nash

But Max's argument is flawed. With drivers of equal calibre and similar equipment, there are no "automatic" passes. I don't care what Mosley says - there is no such thing as an automatic pass between two competitively placed cars/drivers. Mike.

: But Max's argument is flawed. With drivers of equal calibre and similar : equipment, there are no "automatic" passes. I don't care what Mosley says - : there is no such thing as an automatic pass between two competitively placed : cars/drivers. Um... well yes - but two drivers who are lapping with exactly the same lap time being in a position where they could pass each other is so rare it's not worth considering is it? -- Richard G. Clegg Only the mind is waving Networks and Non-Linear Dynamics Group Dept. of Mathematics, Uni. of York www: http://manor.york.ac.uk/top.html

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> > needs more of them. Now, crazy are the unregulated four-way > intersections > > in Ottawa. No stop signs, no yield signs... nothing but broken glass. > What intersection(s) would that be? (I've lived in Ottawa for 30+ years) > Randy

Perhaps I'm thinking of Vancouver. It's been a while. I just remember many unsigned, residential intersections. Stephen

Frank, your young age shows again! I can think of at least three traffic circles that used to be in Montreal. I can see why you profess not to be Canadian you don't even know your own backyard never mind a country. Two were in St Laurent and one was in Rosement. There were probably more but I haven't lived there in long time. You continue to amaze with your vast resources of French culture! Pete "ymenard" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:%Aiv4.13510$[email hidden]... > "David Erb" <[email hidden]> wrote > > We never had them in the province of Qu�bec, but of course we aren'treally

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> Canadians ;) > > It's just the way that different societies regulated the transportation > system. With our two major cities being 1) on an island and 2) on a > cliff, we never had the use for them. My only wish is to -never- have to > get around one of them, as I simply don't know how to handle them. > > I figure myself in a slapstick movie doing round circles without ending. > ;-D > > > > > > -- > -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> > -- May the Downforce be with you... > -- http://www.WeRace.net > -- People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't

realise > how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world. > > >

<<Rosement Its Rosemont . =:-D Robert Gravel Pete <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:3ZEC4.8818$[email hidden]... > Frank, your young age shows again! I can think of at least threetraffic

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> circles that used to be in Montreal. I can see why you profess not to be > Canadian you don't even know your own backyard never mind a country. > Two were in St Laurent and one was in Rosement. There were probably > more but I haven't lived there in long time. You continue to amaze with > your vast resources of French culture! > > Pete > > "ymenard" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:%Aiv4.13510$[email hidden]... > > "David Erb" <[email hidden]> wrote > > > > We never had them in the province of Qu�bec, but of course we aren't > really > > Canadians ;) > > > > It's just the way that different societies regulated the transportation > > system. With our two major cities being 1) on an island and 2) on a > > cliff, we never had the use for them. My only wish is to -never- have

to

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> > get around one of them, as I simply don't know how to handle them. > > > > I figure myself in a slapstick movie doing round circles without ending. > > ;-D > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> > > -- May the Downforce be with you... > > -- http://www.WeRace.net > > -- People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't > realise > > how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world. > > > > > > > >

Your right I lived in St. Laurent and was trying to spell it right! :-) I did say it was a long time ago! :-) Pete "Robert Gravel" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:d7JC4.2876$[email hidden]...

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> <<Rosement > > Its Rosemont . > > =:-D > > Robert Gravel > >