I�m right behind you Marc
--
BR
Thomas Soerensen
GPL Enthusiast of Denmark
http://www.geocities.com/thomas180573/index.html
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Marc,
Good post!
Remco
<Snip>
First off, I have no problem with someone testing a game through warez, as
long as they realise that is likely not a final version (regardless of what
the hype and hackers claim) if the final version hasn't been released yet.
I also believe 1000% that you should pay for what you use, especially if it
is a quality product. Quality software is apparently a lot harder to
produce than we would like, since there is so little of it available. That
goes for many categories, but especially racing and driving sims.
Reports from people who have tried stolen software can be very helpful to us
here...to know whether the hyperbole and hype that seems to accompany every
release is bullshit or whether there is some truth to it.
Publishers who are so anxious to get their titles on the store shelves and
release demos late or never are shooting themselves in the foot in the
battle against piracy. Unfortunately, it seems like many want to milk sales
of a title before people find out how bad it really is.
Publishers who release anxiously awaited titles on one continent months or
even years ahead of the release in another location, in the age of the
Internet and online commerce, are just brain dead.
Despite all of that, WE must be clueless,
insulated-from-any-kind-of-reality-and-community-spirit-twitheads if we
think that the kind of orgy of warez mania that has gripped this group in
the last couple of days is anything but destructive and self destructive.
We must discourage (through community effort and standards) the promotion of
theft of the very software that brings us together. That doesn't mean
ignoring the reality of warez...and occasionally, when there is some
pressing need, discussing the merits of some new yet-to-be-released title.
But the wanton disregard for our own self-interest, the interests of the
software developers and employees who frequent this group in an attempt to
address our concerns and wishes, and the interests of the "evil" publishers,
without whom, this group and our hobby would not exist, should stop!
When the publishers lose because we trash their product and the 12 and half
people who regularly read this group don't buy their product we win. When
the publishers lose because the culture of theft and piracy has reached down
to even our hard core level, then we will lose too because the only thing
left for them to do is shovel crap out the door since taking the time and
effort to do something well will be punished MORE than doing something
badly. In other words, the better the product the more people there will be
who want to steal it.
When our "colleagues" who work for these companies see their own salaries or
efforts put at risk, why would they continue to be collegial? They are not
naive about piracy, of course, but I would presume they expect more from
"colleagues" or "associates." Why would we do anything to wilfully
participate in reducing the already small incentives they have to do good
work?
Finally, is such a stretch to realise that in the adult world, we are
connected to each other? Isn't that what r.a.s. is supposed to be about? I
can tell you the information and advice I have received here--free--over the
past few years has been invaluable to me in relation to my racing sim hobby.
There is no other group or resource like this period. The last few days has
seen the community trashed by adolescent, masturbatory begging and pleading
about a title that, if we're lucky, will be at the top of the heap modern F1
arcade titles. And if we're lucky, the developers might release a physics
patch to make the thing more reasonable to us few fanatics (it is obviously
aimed at a mass audience, not us) and fans may toil for hours fixing sounds,
etc. At the end of the day, it may be a ball of fun, like SCGT turned out
to be after we got through with it. But that's all it is--and at this stage
of the process, I don't think it is worth throwing away our collective
self-interest...starting the big slide down the rail to theft-promoting
mediocrity for all.
A simple proposal: no discussion of warez sites, the mechanics of acquiring
warez, installing warez, using warez, etc. It exists, we don't have to
pretend it doesn't. Some useful information can be gained from it...we can
share that...discreetly. Let's not participate in the ultimate slitting of
our own throats, though.
I obviously feel strongly about this--I am typing it instead of watching the
Darlington race!!! I am doing so because I want to be able to come back to
r.a.s. two years from now (when we are discussing GP5 and NASCAR 6
hopefully) and still have an intact community that at least a couple of sim.
developers might frequent (or at least read). I want to have a bit of fun
reading it and still be able to get tons of useful information and share the
little bit that I can in those unlikely situations that I know something
that others don't. I honestly believe that I am not overreacting when I say
that the warez "discussion" this group has been splattered with in the last
few days, if continued, will prevent this future from happening.
Thanks for listening :)
Marc.
--
****************************************************************************
Marc Collins
[email hidden]
Computers will never equal humans until they make mistakes and
blame them on other computers.
****************************************************************************
Good post Marc - some comments below :)
"Marc Collins" wrote
> First off, I have no problem with someone testing a game through warez, as
> long as they realise that is likely not a final version (regardless ofwhat
> the hype and hackers claim) if the final version hasn't been released yet.
> I also believe 1000% that you should pay for what you use, especially ifit
> is a quality product. Quality software is apparently a lot harder to
> produce than we would like, since there is so little of it available.That
> goes for many categories, but especially racing and driving sims.
>The reports from official & unofficial (!) beta testers are always very
valuable to the group. Whether it is from a hands on session at a show or
from an unspecified source.
> Publishers who are so anxious to get their titles on the store shelves and
> release demos late or never are shooting themselves in the foot in the
> battle against piracy. Unfortunately, it seems like many want to milksales
> of a title before people find out how bad it really is.
>Unfortunately the pressure to hit the shelves is probably the key factor.
Just think how many punters pass through each EB every day. Those that make
the informed choice by trying demos are I would suggest in the minority.
Others will rely on magazine reviews at the most - the rest will go by the
box & in-store posters. I think we would all be amazed at how many this is.
Producing a demo depends on the project plan. If the last phase is adding
some track graphics then a demo can be produced - if there are physics
tweaks & bug fixes up to the last minute then a demo could be damaging if it
doesn't reflect the final version. I guess many aim to hit the shelves, then
target the more informed purchasers.
> Publishers who release anxiously awaited titles on one continent months or
> even years ahead of the release in another location, in the age of the
> Internet and online commerce, are just brain dead.
>Again the vast majority are sold in stores. There probably are some valid
reasons why there is disparity in releasing in different countries. It seems
crazy to us but then we are aware of the releases in other countries & its
availability - again this is a small minority.
> A simple proposal: no discussion of warez sites, the mechanics ofacquiring
> warez, installing warez, using warez, etc. It exists, we don't have to
> pretend it doesn't. Some useful information can be gained from it...we can
> share that...discreetly. Let's not participate in the ultimate slittingof
> our own throats, though.
>Agreed - I always thought this was the RAS code of conduct - previous posts
requesting warez sites have had the flamethrowing treatment - yet not this
time - strange.
Marc,
Good post!
Remco
"Marc Collins" <[email hidden]> wrote:
<Snip>
"Marc Collins" <[email hidden]> wrote
<snip>
The best thing to do is simply to stop helping people with everything
related to warez, especially in public. We can do whatever we want via
email, but I clearly think we shouldn't approve open-talk in this NG about
warez-related helps. Im not talking about the discussion of the product
itself. That is something we mostly have approved over the years. Im more
talking about answering to those "Why is F1 2000 not working?" or "Where can
I get it?".
--
-- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard>
-- May the Downforce be with you...
-- http://www.WeRace.net
-- People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise
how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world.
Marc, I couldn't agree more. Even tacit approval of theft works against all
the good this group does, and certainly against whatever credibility we have
with the developers.
I find it incredibly ironic that in the same weekend that the remarkably
generous guys at GPLEA released Netterton FOR FREE we have people crawling
all over one another to steal something they could buy in a week or two.
I wish I could agree with you about the concept of "testing" something by
trying the warez. There are lots of things in life you don't get to test,
and I think it's rather a hollow rationalization from many who claim it as a
defense.
Thanks, however, for raising the issue so well and so thoughtfully.
Regards,
Kurt
Marc Collins wrote in message ...
us
>here...to know whether the hyperbole and hype that seems to accompany every
>release is bullshit or whether there is some truth to it.
>
>Publishers who are so anxious to get their titles on the store shelves and
>release demos late or never are shooting themselves in the foot in the
>battle against piracy. Unfortunately, it seems like many want to milksales
of
>theft of the very software that brings us together. That doesn't mean
>ignoring the reality of warez...and occasionally, when there is some
>pressing need, discussing the merits of some new yet-to-be-released title.
>But the wanton disregard for our own self-interest, the interests of the
>software developers and employees who frequent this group in an attempt to
>address our concerns and wishes, and the interests of the "evil"publishers,
>without whom, this group and our hobby would not exist, should stop!
>
>When the publishers lose because we trash their product and the 12 and half
>people who regularly read this group don't buy their product we win. When
>the publishers lose because the culture of theft and piracy has reacheddown
>to even our hard core level, then we will lose too because the only thing
>left for them to do is shovel crap out the door since taking the time and
>effort to do something well will be punished MORE than doing something
>badly. In other words, the better the product the more people there willbe
>who want to steal it.
>
>When our "colleagues" who work for these companies see their own salariesor
I
>can tell you the information and advice I have received here--free--overthe
>past few years has been invaluable to me in relation to my racing simhobby.
>There is no other group or resource like this period. The last few dayshas
>seen the community trashed by adolescent, masturbatory begging and pleading
>about a title that, if we're lucky, will be at the top of the heap modernF1
>arcade titles. And if we're lucky, the developers might release a physics
>patch to make the thing more reasonable to us few fanatics (it is obviously
>aimed at a mass audience, not us) and fans may toil for hours fixingsounds,
>etc. At the end of the day, it may be a ball of fun, like SCGT turned out
>to be after we got through with it. But that's all it is--and at thisstage
the
>Darlington race!!! I am doing so because I want to be able to come back to
>r.a.s. two years from now (when we are discussing GP5 and NASCAR 6
>hopefully) and still have an intact community that at least a couple ofsim.
>developers might frequent (or at least read). I want to have a bit of fun
>reading it and still be able to get tons of useful information and sharethe
>little bit that I can in those unlikely situations that I know something
>that others don't. I honestly believe that I am not overreacting when Isay
*
>Marc Collins
>[email hidden]
>
>Computers will never equal humans until they make mistakes and
>blame them on other computers.
>****************************************************************************
>
>
>
Quoted text (9 lines)
>First off, I have no problem with someone testing a game through warez, as >long as they realise that is likely not a final version (regardless of what >the hype and hackers claim) if the final version hasn't been released yet. >I also believe 1000% that you should pay for what you use, especially if it >is a quality product. Quality software is apparently a lot harder to >produce than we would like, since there is so little of it available. That >goes for many categories, but especially racing and driving sims. > >Reports from people who have tried stolen software can be very helpful toQuoted text (12 lines)
>of a title before people find out how bad it really is. > >Publishers who release anxiously awaited titles on one continent months or >even years ahead of the release in another location, in the age of the >Internet and online commerce, are just brain dead. > >Despite all of that, WE must be clueless, >insulated-from-any-kind-of-reality-and-community-spirit-twitheads if we >think that the kind of orgy of warez mania that has gripped this group in >the last couple of days is anything but destructive and self destructive. > >We must discourage (through community effort and standards) the promotionQuoted text (8 lines)
>efforts put at risk, why would they continue to be collegial? They are not >naive about piracy, of course, but I would presume they expect more from >"colleagues" or "associates." Why would we do anything to wilfully >participate in reducing the already small incentives they have to do good >work? > >Finally, is such a stretch to realise that in the adult world, we are >connected to each other? Isn't that what r.a.s. is supposed to be about?Quoted text (11 lines)
>of the process, I don't think it is worth throwing away our collective >self-interest...starting the big slide down the rail to theft-promoting >mediocrity for all. > >A simple proposal: no discussion of warez sites, the mechanics of acquiring >warez, installing warez, using warez, etc. It exists, we don't have to >pretend it doesn't. Some useful information can be gained from it...we can >share that...discreetly. Let's not participate in the ultimate slitting of >our own throats, though. > >I obviously feel strongly about this--I am typing it instead of watchingQuoted text (10 lines)
>that the warez "discussion" this group has been splattered with in the last >few days, if continued, will prevent this future from happening. > >Thanks for listening :) > >Marc. > > >-- >***************************************************************************Or people like you can stop downloading it. You seem to think that it's ok
for you to download it?
"ymenard" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:kjbB4.49614$[email hidden]...
more
> talking about answering to those "Why is F1 2000 not working?" or "Wherecan
realise
> how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world.
>
>
>
Quoted text (8 lines)
> "Marc Collins" <[email hidden]> wrote > <snip> > > The best thing to do is simply to stop helping people with everything > related to warez, especially in public. We can do whatever we want via > email, but I clearly think we shouldn't approve open-talk in this NG about > warez-related helps. Im not talking about the discussion of the product > itself. That is something we mostly have approved over the years. ImQuoted text (9 lines)
> I get it?". > > > > -- > -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> > -- May the Downforce be with you... > -- http://www.WeRace.net > -- People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don'tMarc Collins wrote:
<excellent post on warez deleted>
Well said, Marc. I couldn't agree more.
Dave Ewing
--
*****************************************************
David A. Ewing
Xilinx Boulder [email hidden]
*****************************************************
Hear, hear!
--
Regards,
Bruce Kennewell,
Canberra, Australia.
---------------------------
Marc Collins <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:xp9B4.49440$[email hidden]...
> First off, I have no problem with someone testing a game through warez, as
> long as they realise that is likely not a final version (regardless of
what
> the hype and hackers claim) if the final version hasn't been released yet.
> I also believe 1000% that you should pay for what you use, especially if
it
> is a quality product. Quality software is apparently a lot harder to
> produce than we would like, since there is so little of it available.
That
> goes for many categories, but especially racing and driving sims.
>
> Reports from people who have tried stolen software can be very helpful to
us
> here...to know whether the hyperbole and hype that seems to accompany
every
> release is bullshit or whether there is some truth to it.
>
> Publishers who are so anxious to get their titles on the store shelves and
> release demos late or never are shooting themselves in the foot in the
> battle against piracy. Unfortunately, it seems like many want to milk
sales
> of a title before people find out how bad it really is.
>
> Publishers who release anxiously awaited titles on one continent months or
> even years ahead of the release in another location, in the age of the
> Internet and online commerce, are just brain dead.
>
> Despite all of that, WE must be clueless,
> insulated-from-any-kind-of-reality-and-community-spirit-twitheads if we
> think that the kind of orgy of warez mania that has gripped this group in
> the last couple of days is anything but destructive and self destructive.
>
> We must discourage (through community effort and standards) the promotion
of
> theft of the very software that brings us together. That doesn't mean
> ignoring the reality of warez...and occasionally, when there is some
> pressing need, discussing the merits of some new yet-to-be-released title.
> But the wanton disregard for our own self-interest, the interests of the
> software developers and employees who frequent this group in an attempt to
> address our concerns and wishes, and the interests of the "evil"
publishers,
> without whom, this group and our hobby would not exist, should stop!
>
> When the publishers lose because we trash their product and the 12 and
half
> people who regularly read this group don't buy their product we win. When
> the publishers lose because the culture of theft and piracy has reached
down
> to even our hard core level, then we will lose too because the only thing
> left for them to do is shovel crap out the door since taking the time and
> effort to do something well will be punished MORE than doing something
> badly. In other words, the better the product the more people there will
be
> who want to steal it.
>
> When our "colleagues" who work for these companies see their own salaries
or
> efforts put at risk, why would they continue to be collegial? They are
not
> naive about piracy, of course, but I would presume they expect more from
> "colleagues" or "associates." Why would we do anything to wilfully
> participate in reducing the already small incentives they have to do good
> work?
>
> Finally, is such a stretch to realise that in the adult world, we are
> connected to each other? Isn't that what r.a.s. is supposed to be about?
I
> can tell you the information and advice I have received here--free--over
the
> past few years has been invaluable to me in relation to my racing sim
hobby.
> There is no other group or resource like this period. The last few days
has
> seen the community trashed by adolescent, masturbatory begging and
pleading
> about a title that, if we're lucky, will be at the top of the heap modern
F1
> arcade titles. And if we're lucky, the developers might release a physics
> patch to make the thing more reasonable to us few fanatics (it is
obviously
> aimed at a mass audience, not us) and fans may toil for hours fixing
sounds,
> etc. At the end of the day, it may be a ball of fun, like SCGT turned out
> to be after we got through with it. But that's all it is--and at this
stage
> of the process, I don't think it is worth throwing away our collective
> self-interest...starting the big slide down the rail to theft-promoting
> mediocrity for all.
>
> A simple proposal: no discussion of warez sites, the mechanics of
acquiring
> warez, installing warez, using warez, etc. It exists, we don't have to
> pretend it doesn't. Some useful information can be gained from it...we can
> share that...discreetly. Let's not participate in the ultimate slitting
of
> our own throats, though.
>
> I obviously feel strongly about this--I am typing it instead of watching
the
> Darlington race!!! I am doing so because I want to be able to come back
to
> r.a.s. two years from now (when we are discussing GP5 and NASCAR 6
> hopefully) and still have an intact community that at least a couple of
sim.
> developers might frequent (or at least read). I want to have a bit of fun
> reading it and still be able to get tons of useful information and share
the
> little bit that I can in those unlikely situations that I know something
> that others don't. I honestly believe that I am not overreacting when I
say
> that the warez "discussion" this group has been splattered with in the
last
> few days, if continued, will prevent this future from happening.
>
> Thanks for listening :)
>
> Marc.
>
>
> --
>
****************************************************************************
> Marc Collins
> [email hidden]
>
> Computers will never equal humans until they make mistakes and
> blame them on other computers.
>
****************************************************************************
>
>
>
As software developer and one who really respect integrity of r.a.s
community I agree. Plain and simple , this is not a place to promote warez
sites and piracy software. I see r.a.s as promoters of good quality software
and companies which are making them. Best to all.
Darko
Marc Collins <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:xp9B4.49440$[email hidden]...
> First off, I have no problem with someone testing a game through warez, as
> long as they realise that is likely not a final version (regardless ofwhat
> the hype and hackers claim) if the final version hasn't been released yet.
> I also believe 1000% that you should pay for what you use, especially ifit
> is a quality product. Quality software is apparently a lot harder to
> produce than we would like, since there is so little of it available.That
> goes for many categories, but especially racing and driving sims.
>
> Reports from people who have tried stolen software can be very helpful tous
> here...to know whether the hyperbole and hype that seems to accompanyevery
> release is bullshit or whether there is some truth to it.
>
> Publishers who are so anxious to get their titles on the store shelves and
> release demos late or never are shooting themselves in the foot in the
> battle against piracy. Unfortunately, it seems like many want to milksales
of
> theft of the very software that brings us together. That doesn't mean
> ignoring the reality of warez...and occasionally, when there is some
> pressing need, discussing the merits of some new yet-to-be-released title.
> But the wanton disregard for our own self-interest, the interests of the
> software developers and employees who frequent this group in an attempt to
> address our concerns and wishes, and the interests of the "evil"publishers,
> without whom, this group and our hobby would not exist, should stop!
>
> When the publishers lose because we trash their product and the 12 andhalf
> people who regularly read this group don't buy their product we win. When
> the publishers lose because the culture of theft and piracy has reacheddown
> to even our hard core level, then we will lose too because the only thing
> left for them to do is shovel crap out the door since taking the time and
> effort to do something well will be punished MORE than doing something
> badly. In other words, the better the product the more people there willbe
> who want to steal it.
>
> When our "colleagues" who work for these companies see their own salariesor
> efforts put at risk, why would they continue to be collegial? They arenot
I
> can tell you the information and advice I have received here--free--overthe
> past few years has been invaluable to me in relation to my racing simhobby.
> There is no other group or resource like this period. The last few dayshas
> seen the community trashed by adolescent, masturbatory begging andpleading
> about a title that, if we're lucky, will be at the top of the heap modernF1
> arcade titles. And if we're lucky, the developers might release a physics
> patch to make the thing more reasonable to us few fanatics (it isobviously
> aimed at a mass audience, not us) and fans may toil for hours fixingsounds,
> etc. At the end of the day, it may be a ball of fun, like SCGT turned out
> to be after we got through with it. But that's all it is--and at thisstage
> of the process, I don't think it is worth throwing away our collective
> self-interest...starting the big slide down the rail to theft-promoting
> mediocrity for all.
>
> A simple proposal: no discussion of warez sites, the mechanics ofacquiring
> warez, installing warez, using warez, etc. It exists, we don't have to
> pretend it doesn't. Some useful information can be gained from it...we can
> share that...discreetly. Let's not participate in the ultimate slittingof
> our own throats, though.
>
> I obviously feel strongly about this--I am typing it instead of watchingthe
> Darlington race!!! I am doing so because I want to be able to come backto
> r.a.s. two years from now (when we are discussing GP5 and NASCAR 6
> hopefully) and still have an intact community that at least a couple ofsim.
> developers might frequent (or at least read). I want to have a bit of fun
> reading it and still be able to get tons of useful information and sharethe
> little bit that I can in those unlikely situations that I know something
> that others don't. I honestly believe that I am not overreacting when Isay
> that the warez "discussion" this group has been splattered with in thelast
****************************************************************************
> Marc Collins
> [email hidden]
>
> Computers will never equal humans until they make mistakes and
> blame them on other computers.
>****************************************************************************
>
>
>
Quoted text (12 lines)
> of a title before people find out how bad it really is. > > Publishers who release anxiously awaited titles on one continent months or > even years ahead of the release in another location, in the age of the > Internet and online commerce, are just brain dead. > > Despite all of that, WE must be clueless, > insulated-from-any-kind-of-reality-and-community-spirit-twitheads if we > think that the kind of orgy of warez mania that has gripped this group in > the last couple of days is anything but destructive and self destructive. > > We must discourage (through community effort and standards) the promotionQuoted text (7 lines)
> naive about piracy, of course, but I would presume they expect more from > "colleagues" or "associates." Why would we do anything to wilfully > participate in reducing the already small incentives they have to do good > work? > > Finally, is such a stretch to realise that in the adult world, we are > connected to each other? Isn't that what r.a.s. is supposed to be about?Quoted text (9 lines)
> few days, if continued, will prevent this future from happening. > > Thanks for listening :) > > Marc. > > > -- >Excellent post... wish I'd read it sooner (would have saved me some typing).
Jan.
=---
Marc Collins <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:xp9B4.49440$[email hidden]...
> First off, <snip>
Geez . . . you just d o n ' t g e t i t , do you? That's not the
fellow's point!
So give it a rest, limp one.
--DK
"Stiff" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:yodB4.4399$[email hidden]...
> Or people like you can stop downloading it. You seem to think that it's ok
> for you to download it?
You dont get it do you? I will quote him "lets stop piracy" (read below for
a classic yemanard)
> Shut up and buy both games. What is this newsgroup becoming to ????Let's
"David Karr" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:8b7slu$io2$[email hidden]...
ok
> > for you to download it?
>
>
>
