Re: GPL's Dominance of RAS

On Thu, 23 Mar 2000 10:37:24 -0800, Marty <[email hidden]> wrote: >> >does anybody look at a motorcycle and not compare it to a Harley? >> Bad analogy. A Harley is not a motorcycle, it's a piece of jewelry. >....or a cultural icon. ...or a Halloween parade for 40 year olds. Tim

David, would it be possible for you to please use just simple words that everyone may at least have a chance at understanding? We aren't all as highly educated as you obviously are and we aren't all experts in the subtleties of the English language.......in fact, we don't all speak English as a first language. It may appear to some people that you are deliberately being an intellectual snob when you use these long-winded phrases when something a little shorter can be used to the same effect. David Karr wrote:

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> Okay--a serious discussion, right? > > > > GPL's dominance is thus a reflection of an insider mentality > that serves to ridicule and thereby censor other opinions. (The utterance > of some position is never fully a free-speech act--all are equal, all can > talk, and all receive equal hearing--but is always received according to the > structures of expression and reception which govern the economy of that > particular discursive field.) > > The other is that GPL is something of a different magnitude of achievement > from the other stuff that comes RAS's way. It's dominance of RAS is thus a > reflection of it's ability to sustain interest over what's closing in on two > years. (A position which, quite obviously, reflects a more traditionally > liberal "market of ideas" configuration.)

On Thu, 23 Mar 2000 22:57:13 +1100, Leaky_Valve <[email hidden]> wrote:

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>David, would it be possible for you to please use just simple words that >everyone may at least have a chance at understanding? We aren't all as highly >educated as you obviously are and we aren't all experts in the subtleties of the >English language.......in fact, we don't all speak English as a first language. >It may appear to some people that you are deliberately being an intellectual >snob when you use these long-winded phrases when something a little shorter can >be used to the same effect.

Him say Leaky Valve = Stained underpants. Tim

well, I have played all sorts of driving sims/games. I probably devoted a lot of time to what many SIMDRIVERS would call arcade racers. However, because of the lack of sim titles available I didn't have a lot of exposure to them. I always enjoyed the ones I did play and found their depth to offer a far greater experience than most of your 'fun' acrade racers. I got more into Sims over the last year but had never tried GPL...well, I take that back, I tried the demo with my old Rendition 1000. The demo was very difficult (I was using a game pad in those days) and I was a bit turned off by it. The graphics where nice but not outstanding so I didn't pay much attention. I later ended up with a TNT and always wanted to give GPL another try but was limited. I continued to visit ng and forums and it seems like GPL dominates everyplace...not just here. SO, 2 video cards and a lot more experience later (yes, the arcade titles grow stale fast but some do offer lots of fun) I dicided to bite the bullet and give GPL another go. I was so sick of people going on and on about this damn game everyplace I went that I really wanted to try it and not like it - However, my first lap had me hooked and I have never looked back. Yes, I too became what I despised most of all - A GPL FREAK. But, having said that, I do believe that GPL has set a bar (2 years ago) which is yet to be surpassed. It's brillience is why it dominates so many post...much like Micheal Jordan is the compare all in basketball...something has to set the standard upon which all is judged and for now it is GPL - the MJ of racing sims. David Karr <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:8bc9qt$apa$[email hidden]...

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> Okay--a serious discussion, right? > > Many people here have posted messages which indicated that they felt that > the GPL fans among RAS'ers have effectively hijacked the newsgroup, making > discussion of any other sim always fraught with difficulty. Anything that > comes out, they seem to say, will be instantly met with a "It's no GPL." > > I can see at least two ways of looking at it. One is that GPL fans have > been especially bullying, pushing other discussions away by ganging up on > non-GPL folk. GPL's dominance is thus a reflection of an insider

mentality > that serves to ridicule and thereby censor other opinions. (The utterance > of some position is never fully a free-speech act--all are equal, all can > talk, and all receive equal hearing--but is always received according tothe > structures of expression and reception which govern the economy of that > particular discursive field.) > > The other is that GPL is something of a different magnitude of achievement > from the other stuff that comes RAS's way. It's dominance of RAS is thusa > reflection of it's ability to sustain interest over what's closing in ontwo

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> years. (A position which, quite obviously, reflects a more traditionally > liberal "market of ideas" configuration.) > > > Obviously, the easy way out would be to say both, but I'd like to see the > discussion get a bit deeper than that. And I'd ask contributors to the > thread to be fair, and respectful of all the other posts. > > --David K. > >

On Wed, 22 Mar 2000 23:25:52 -0600, "David Karr" <[email hidden]> wrote: >Obviously, the easy way out would be to say both, but I'd like to see the >discussion get a bit deeper than that. And I'd ask contributors to the >thread to be fair, and respectful of all the other posts. I agree that it's the greatest simulation engine produced so far, but in all honesty I've been hoping for a long time that something will surpass it. I'm a racing aficionado, with great respect for the cars and drivers of that era, but I don't really care to relive it. I'm just not into it. It's kind of funny, because I'm in my mid-30's, an age where I feel I should probably have a great appreciation for GPL and NASCAR Legends sims, but I don't. I played GPL for quite a while just to marvel in it's wonderful world, but unfortunately it doesn't have the staying power for me that it has for many on RMD. I've never purchased or even played NASCAR Legends since it doesn't have the benefit of that wonderful physics engine. Bring on an SCGT or SODA style sim with cutting edge physics/graphics and I'll be hooked. Until then, I guess I'll just keep playing the mod-ed SCGT, SODA without a 3D card (ugh!), and Viper Racing. Tim

Okay--a serious discussion, right? Many people here have posted messages which indicated that they felt that the GPL fans among RAS'ers have effectively hijacked the newsgroup, making discussion of any other sim always fraught with difficulty. Anything that comes out, they seem to say, will be instantly met with a "It's no GPL." I can see at least two ways of looking at it. One is that GPL fans have been especially bullying, pushing other discussions away by ganging up on non-GPL folk. GPL's dominance is thus a reflection of an insider mentality that serves to ridicule and thereby censor other opinions. (The utterance of some position is never fully a free-speech act--all are equal, all can talk, and all receive equal hearing--but is always received according to the structures of expression and reception which govern the economy of that particular discursive field.) The other is that GPL is something of a different magnitude of achievement from the other stuff that comes RAS's way. It's dominance of RAS is thus a reflection of it's ability to sustain interest over what's closing in on two years. (A position which, quite obviously, reflects a more traditionally liberal "market of ideas" configuration.) Obviously, the easy way out would be to say both, but I'd like to see the discussion get a bit deeper than that. And I'd ask contributors to the thread to be fair, and respectful of all the other posts. --David K.

I refuse to take part in this discussion as it is further proof of the dominance of GPL on this newsgroup :-) Oops, sorry, you wanted serious didn't you...... David Karr wrote in message <8bc9qt$apa$[email hidden]>...

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>Okay--a serious discussion, right? > >Many people here have posted messages which indicated that they felt that >the GPL fans among RAS'ers have effectively hijacked the newsgroup, making >discussion of any other sim always fraught with difficulty. Anything that >comes out, they seem to say, will be instantly met with a "It's no GPL." > >I can see at least two ways of looking at it. One is that GPL fans have >been especially bullying, pushing other discussions away by ganging up on >non-GPL folk. GPL's dominance is thus a reflection of an insider mentality >that serves to ridicule and thereby censor other opinions. (The utterance >of some position is never fully a free-speech act--all are equal, all can >talk, and all receive equal hearing--but is always received according to

the >structures of expression and reception which govern the economy of that >particular discursive field.) > >The other is that GPL is something of a different magnitude of achievement >from the other stuff that comes RAS's way. It's dominance of RAS is thus a >reflection of it's ability to sustain interest over what's closing in ontwo

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>years. (A position which, quite obviously, reflects a more traditionally >liberal "market of ideas" configuration.) > > >Obviously, the easy way out would be to say both, but I'd like to see the >discussion get a bit deeper than that. And I'd ask contributors to the >thread to be fair, and respectful of all the other posts. > >--David K. > >

I've seen quite a few mentions of the bullying or pushing aside any discussion of anything not GPL, but I still have not seen it actually happen... Yes, GPL is definitely the most talked about, but I haven't seen anyone indicate that other titles are not eligible for discussion. There are many, many different sims mentioned in the headers. Granted, I really only tend to read the GPL and NASCAR stuff and the ocassional mention of a new rally or F1 sim simply because those are the ony two I have and use. I think it's only natural that anything that comes along is going to get compared to GPL. The majority of people who have tried it consider it the absolute best sim ever done, me included. I know not everyone feels that way, but most do - so it stands to reason that the best is gonna get discussed to death and back, and with all the work by folks like Dave Noonan, ThePits, and GPLEA, it won't likely end any time soon (woo-hoo!, happy GPL dance...). Maybe I just haven't read enough posts or maybe I didn't notice, but I don't see the "oh, that's not GPL, go post it somewhere else" - I check here because I know that any racing sim information I'm looking for is gonna most likely be easy to find and if a new title comes out, it's gonna be mentioned here first more often than not. Grand Prix Legends fills a void for a lot of people and has been a long, long time coming (about 20 years I think in my case...) - it SHOULD be the most popular subject (my opinion, not everyones). It's not the only one, which is good, it's just the best... ~does anybody look at a motorcycle and not compare it to a Harley? On Wed, 22 Mar 2000 23:25:52 -0600, "David Karr" <[email hidden]> wrote:

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>Okay--a serious discussion, right? > >Many people here have posted messages which indicated that they felt that >the GPL fans among RAS'ers have effectively hijacked the newsgroup, making >discussion of any other sim always fraught with difficulty. Anything that >comes out, they seem to say, will be instantly met with a "It's no GPL." > >I can see at least two ways of looking at it. One is that GPL fans have >been especially bullying, pushing other discussions away by ganging up on >non-GPL folk. GPL's dominance is thus a reflection of an insider mentality >that serves to ridicule and thereby censor other opinions. (The utterance >of some position is never fully a free-speech act--all are equal, all can >talk, and all receive equal hearing--but is always received according to the >structures of expression and reception which govern the economy of that >particular discursive field.) > >The other is that GPL is something of a different magnitude of achievement >from the other stuff that comes RAS's way. It's dominance of RAS is thus a >reflection of it's ability to sustain interest over what's closing in on two >years. (A position which, quite obviously, reflects a more traditionally >liberal "market of ideas" configuration.) > > >Obviously, the easy way out would be to say both, but I'd like to see the >discussion get a bit deeper than that. And I'd ask contributors to the >thread to be fair, and respectful of all the other posts. > >--David K. > >

I too, was one of those who never saw the virtue in all the press GPL was getting here. I tried the demo, and was suitably unimpressed. But eventually, the sheer weight of opinion swayed me to try again. I got the game. I've never looked back. The fact that this sim is so far ahead of anything else to date is why it dominates R.A.S. Whether you like it or not, a sim this good is bound to draw comparisons. You still have a choice, you don't have to play it. Glenn David Karr wrote:

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> > Okay--a serious discussion, right? > > Many people here have posted messages which indicated that they felt that > the GPL fans among RAS'ers have effectively hijacked the newsgroup, making > discussion of any other sim always fraught with difficulty. Anything that > comes out, they seem to say, will be instantly met with a "It's no GPL." > > I can see at least two ways of looking at it. One is that GPL fans have > been especially bullying, pushing other discussions away by ganging up on > non-GPL folk. GPL's dominance is thus a reflection of an insider mentality > that serves to ridicule and thereby censor other opinions. (The utterance > of some position is never fully a free-speech act--all are equal, all can > talk, and all receive equal hearing--but is always received according to the > structures of expression and reception which govern the economy of that > particular discursive field.) > > The other is that GPL is something of a different magnitude of achievement > from the other stuff that comes RAS's way. It's dominance of RAS is thus a > reflection of it's ability to sustain interest over what's closing in on two > years. (A position which, quite obviously, reflects a more traditionally > liberal "market of ideas" configuration.) > > Obviously, the easy way out would be to say both, but I'd like to see the > discussion get a bit deeper than that. And I'd ask contributors to the > thread to be fair, and respectful of all the other posts. > > --David K.

When I first bought GP2 for my crappy P90 back in late summer 96, I fired up Monaco and tried to drive with the keyboard. I still remeber that adrenaline rush I got by blasting up the first hill. Never felt that way by any computer game. Fast forward two years. I bought PC Gamer UK with the demo CD with GPL and Watkins Glen. I fired it up on my flatmates 233 MMX with a Voodoo Rush card. I didn't get it to work with hardware acceleration, so I had to use 15 fps software, but with a joystick this time. I knew the game was difficult so I took it really easy through the esses, but hammered down the throttle on the straight. The virtual cockpid moved forward giving me the impression that i was thrown back and hanging on to the car by holding the wheel. The feeling was "My car is going to fast, I want off", and that funny adrenaline rush again. Rest is history. I still get a great kick by blasting down the Masta straight with the screaming Ferrari. Now, here is my point: No sim after GPL has given me that feeling again. It is as easy as that. I think other people here have the same experience, and that is the reason i don't drive MGPRS2, no matter how good it is. It doesn't appeal, and why should i use my time on it ? Since this year will be sim-o-rama I hope at least one of the sims released will give me that feeling of greatness again. -- Olav K. Malmin remove spam when replying

David, this is a good thing you started here as it offers some retro- and introspective into what is otherwise an extrovert activity. Why is GPL dominating this NG? Simply because no other sim up to this date has reached the immersion levels it offers. I think it goes further than merely its unmatched physics model. People are overlooking the fact that the display is purely 3D in the sim without any text or other clutter at all, and the AI can sometimes be mistaken to be almost human, and these two add to the immersion factor besides the ultrarealistic physics engine. I also fly flight simulators, yet GPL is the closest to virtual reality of all the sims I have. I wish it was this simple, though. As in every community, there are the protagonists of ideas and there are followers who share the same idea to be socially accepted. These usually tend to be more like blind believers than people who take facts into account to form their ideas. These are the people who will say all else is crap because it doesn't feel quite like GPL. The poll on www.simracingnews.com about whether or not you will buy F1 2000, which started before all the facts about it were revealed, proves enlightening. About a third of those who voted said: 'Who Cares? GPL is the greatest of all time!'. I believe GPL deserves the amount of publicity it recieves here, but the attitude towards other sims should at least allow some of the common dialectical doubt instead of mere bashing we sometimes see. -Gregor

"David Karr" <[email hidden]> wrote: >Okay--a serious discussion, right? I don't wanna! Hmmm, ok then... >Many people here have posted messages which indicated that they felt that >the GPL fans among RAS'ers have effectively hijacked the newsgroup, making >discussion of any other sim always fraught with difficulty. Anything that >comes out, they seem to say, will be instantly met with a "It's no GPL." People always tend to compare. If I want to buy a car, I'm most interested in reviews where the cars I'm interested in are compared to each other. Also, every new racingdriver talent in Brasil will be compared to Ayrton Senna. If someone does a review of a game, and (s)he describes that the physics are as good as Viper's, but not so good as GPL's, we all know exactly what (s)he meant. The same reviewer could use the graphics of RC2000 to compare a new game with, or the controller setup of AMA Superbike. Every GPL-freak here in RAS will drop GPL once there is a better game. Some are the same people who raved about GP2 or ICR2. That said, the real question is, IMO, why do people, who complain about the GPL dominance, visit RAS? Remco

David, I know ow you feel. To anyonewho still remembers, I used to kinda get hot under the collar about this happening but I've come to a conclusion. Theres a reason for it dominating, its very good sim, great sim even. But the problem is that now and again other good sims don't get a chance and are shot down before they even take off. The best thing to do I find is to don't let it bother you, but where its needed. Make reference to another sim, show its good points (and bad). Just to get a bit of a comment thats not "Go buy GPL, its much better" type of responce which is frustrating, and will show an opinon that doesn't seem to GPL biased. There are only a few who really and truely flare you for not having thsi "GPL" attitude. 99.9% of the guys here are honest and jsut like the sim so much, but it somtimes seems like they just plain forget that a sim doesn't have to beat GPL to be good. -- GraDee ------------------------------------------------------ Karting "3.65" http://www.esatclear.ie/~karting/ ------------------------------------------------------ "Did you press the button Doogle" ".... Ah come on now Ted" "Dooooogle.....!" "Ah, I did ya Ted" David Karr <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:8bc9qt$apa$[email hidden]... > Okay--a serious discussion, right? > > Many people here have posted messages which indicated that they felt that > the GPL fans among RAS'ers have effectively hijacked the newsgroup, making > discussion of any other sim always fraught with difficulty. Anything that > comes out, they seem to say, will be instantly met with a "It's no GPL." > > I can see at least two ways of looking at it. One is that GPL fans have > been especially bullying, pushing other discussions away by ganging up on > non-GPL folk. GPL's dominance is thus a reflection of an insider mentality > that serves to ridicule and thereby censor other opinions. (The utterance > of some position is never fully a free-speech act--all are equal, all can > talk, and all receive equal hearing--but is always received according to the > structures of expression and reception which govern the economy of that > particular discursive field.) > > The other is that GPL is something of a different magnitude of achievement > from the other stuff that comes RAS's way. It's dominance of RAS is thus a > reflection of it's ability to sustain interest over what's closing in on two > years. (A position which, quite obviously, reflects a more traditionally > liberal "market of ideas" configuration.) > > > Obviously, the easy way out would be to say both, but I'd like to see the > discussion get a bit deeper than that. And I'd ask contributors to the > thread to be fair, and respectful of all the other posts. > > --David K. > >

It's simple (and your question has been asked before several times): Whatever the best and/or newest sim of the day is will occupy most of r.a.s. attention. GPL still occupies so much "space" because nothing else has been able to topple it's reign as best sim by far. F12000 has been popular for the last few days, but I highly doubt there will much discussion of it 6 months from now. If GP3 is as great as it claims, it MAY topple GPL. If it does, I bet it will take over. NASCAR 4 may also prove to be very exciting. There are no political or hidden agendas that I am aware of... Marc. "David Karr" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:8bc9qt$apa$[email hidden]...

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> Okay--a serious discussion, right? > > Many people here have posted messages which indicated that they felt that > the GPL fans among RAS'ers have effectively hijacked the newsgroup, making > discussion of any other sim always fraught with difficulty. Anything that > comes out, they seem to say, will be instantly met with a "It's no GPL." > > I can see at least two ways of looking at it. One is that GPL fans have > been especially bullying, pushing other discussions away by ganging up on > non-GPL folk. GPL's dominance is thus a reflection of an insider

mentality > that serves to ridicule and thereby censor other opinions. (The utterance > of some position is never fully a free-speech act--all are equal, all can > talk, and all receive equal hearing--but is always received according tothe > structures of expression and reception which govern the economy of that > particular discursive field.) > > The other is that GPL is something of a different magnitude of achievement > from the other stuff that comes RAS's way. It's dominance of RAS is thusa > reflection of it's ability to sustain interest over what's closing in ontwo

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> years. (A position which, quite obviously, reflects a more traditionally > liberal "market of ideas" configuration.) > > > Obviously, the easy way out would be to say both, but I'd like to see the > discussion get a bit deeper than that. And I'd ask contributors to the > thread to be fair, and respectful of all the other posts. > > --David K. > >

Oh man, not another fricking gpl thread ! [email hidden] (Benjamin) wrote in <[email hidden]>: >I've seen quite a few mentions of the bullying or pushing aside any >discussion of anything not GPL, but I still have not seen it actually >happen... I agree, I don't see other topics pushed away, ignored maybe. But the people that are interested in X, can have there discussion about X here, and I welcome them. I basically only talk gpl because it's the only motorsports software I'm into right now, thankfully. I'm actually glad to see all the F1 2000 posts, it allows me to plow through the newsgroup faster by skipping over them. As has been said, the bars been raised, we are only responding to it. >does anybody look at a motorcycle and not compare it to a Harley? Bad analogy. A Harley is not a motorcycle, it's a piece of jewelry. -- Don Scurlock Vancouver,B.C.

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> [email hidden] (Benjamin) wrote in > <[email hidden]>: > > >does anybody look at a motorcycle and not compare it to a Harley? > > Bad analogy. A Harley is not a motorcycle, it's a piece of jewelry. > > -- > Don Scurlock > Vancouver,B.C.

....or a cultural icon. Marty

This has been dicussed many, many times before. There are a number of reasons why they behave as boorishly as they do. R.a.s. is the forum where the few who bought GPL hang out and discuss it. Pretty simple. Go to the HG forums and there are almost 20,000 RC2000 posts in the last six months. Go to mgprs2.com or gp2.com and you'll see the amazing number of hits those sites have received since their inception. The GPL crowd is tiny (40,000 units sold-how many returned?) compared to sims like GP2, MGPRS2, RC2000, and any number of arcade titles like MTM2. How many people who bought it are still actually playing it after two years? Very few I'm sure. **********This forum is NOT dominated by a rapidly growing number of new GPL fans who are praising it's glory. I read the SAME names saying the SAME things about GPL again and again and again for two years (must be tiring). How could it be otherwise? Almost all of those 40,000 units were sold in the first months of release of GPL. Same names. Same comments.************* Most of the GPL'ers are older than the fans of almost every other sim due to the era of racing it recreates. Now if you are 30+, how do you defend your hobby to your wife, girlfriend, friends, family who view it as nothing more than a "racing game" being played by an overgrown child? You try very hard to convince them, and yourself (by conversing with fellow GPL'ers at r.a.s), and everyone here at r.a.s. that what you are doing is actually close to reality, and the "others" are just playing games. The MAIN reason the GPL fan club is so obnoxious is that they actually have convinced each other that by mastering the almighty GPL physics engine, it must mean that they could of, would of if only given the chance, and should of, been a real race car driver. What they forget is that what they've actualy mastered (after 1,000,000 laps ((why did it take so many?)) ) is an eye/hand coordination exercise which requires you to guide cartoon cars through a maze on a computer screen. They also THINK they are better sim drivers than fans of other sims. After my time on VROC, I found that to be a joke. Your typical pimply faced teen can rip through any racing game faster than 9 out of 10 of your GPL fan club members. Maybe it's the age thing. If someone has been playing a sim for two years and done those million laps at Monza trying to shave that extra .2 off your time, it's a little silly to expect them to move on to another sim without them kicking and screaming all the way. Then they'd have to start ALL OVER AGAIN to gain some glory. The GPL'ers remind me of your typical sports fan who tries to convince everyone that their team is the best even when no one is really listening. New titles are being released which surpass GPL in many ways. Some of us move on and enjoy a new challenge. Some of us stick with the same old routine which we feel comfortable in, and desperately downgrade others in order to feel good about our decision. David G Fisher "David Karr" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:8bc9qt$apa$[email hidden]...

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> Okay--a serious discussion, right? > > Many people here have posted messages which indicated that they felt that > the GPL fans among RAS'ers have effectively hijacked the newsgroup, making > discussion of any other sim always fraught with difficulty. Anything that > comes out, they seem to say, will be instantly met with a "It's no GPL." > > I can see at least two ways of looking at it. One is that GPL fans have > been especially bullying, pushing other discussions away by ganging up on > non-GPL folk. GPL's dominance is thus a reflection of an insider

mentality > that serves to ridicule and thereby censor other opinions. (The utterance > of some position is never fully a free-speech act--all are equal, all can > talk, and all receive equal hearing--but is always received according tothe > structures of expression and reception which govern the economy of that > particular discursive field.) > > The other is that GPL is something of a different magnitude of achievement > from the other stuff that comes RAS's way. It's dominance of RAS is thusa > reflection of it's ability to sustain interest over what's closing in ontwo

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> years. (A position which, quite obviously, reflects a more traditionally > liberal "market of ideas" configuration.) > > > Obviously, the easy way out would be to say both, but I'd like to see the > discussion get a bit deeper than that. And I'd ask contributors to the > thread to be fair, and respectful of all the other posts. > > --David K. > >

David G Fisher wrote in message ... Major snip Some of us stick with the same old

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>routine which we feel comfortable in, and desperately downgrade others in >order to feel good about our decision. > >David G Fisher > > > >

Um, David? Your last line there. Isn't that what you just did? Kurt

I love GPL but that absolutely doesn't mean that I will ignore other sims. I really want a sim that can stop me from playing gpl, because that would mean it's a better sim. But as there are no sims released in the past 2 years that beat gpl IMO I keep on playing gpl. Sure I've bought many sims in the last 2 years and before, and I still play some of them (RC2K, N3, GP2) but I still keep going back to gpl. Personally that means it's the best out there.

LOL!! --DK "Tim O." <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > ...or a Halloween parade for 40 year olds. > > Tim >

Actually, I *do* have the GPL attitude--I just wanted to open up the topic for all, because I don't think there's a pro-GPL conspiracy, and I wanted to see the idea explored in an explicit way. --DK "GraDee" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:8bdnoj$ro3$[email hidden]... > David, I know ow you feel. > > To anyonewho still remembers, I used to kinda get hot under the collarabout > this happening but I've come to a conclusion. > > Theres a reason for it dominating, its very good sim, great sim even. But > the problem is that now and again other good sims don't get a chance andare > shot down before they even take off. > > The best thing to do I find is to don't let it bother you, but where its > needed. Make reference to another sim, show its good points (and bad).Just > to get a bit of a comment thats not "Go buy GPL, its much better" type of > responce which is frustrating, and will show an opinon that doesn't seemto

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> GPL biased. > > There are only a few who really and truely flare you for not having thsi > "GPL" attitude. 99.9% of the guys here are honest and jsut like the sim so > much, but it somtimes seems like they just plain forget that a sim doesn't > have to beat GPL to be good. > > > -- > > GraDee > ------------------------------------------------------ > Karting "3.65" > http://www.esatclear.ie/~karting/ > ------------------------------------------------------ > "Did you press the button Doogle" > ".... Ah come on now Ted" > "Dooooogle.....!" > "Ah, I did ya Ted" > > David Karr <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:8bc9qt$apa$[email hidden]... > > Okay--a serious discussion, right? > > > > Many people here have posted messages which indicated that they felt

that > > the GPL fans among RAS'ers have effectively hijacked the newsgroup,making > > discussion of any other sim always fraught with difficulty. Anythingthat > > comes out, they seem to say, will be instantly met with a "It's no GPL." > > > > I can see at least two ways of looking at it. One is that GPL fans have > > been especially bullying, pushing other discussions away by ganging upon > > non-GPL folk. GPL's dominance is thus a reflection of an insider > mentality > > that serves to ridicule and thereby censor other opinions. (Theutterance > > of some position is never fully a free-speech act--all are equal, allcan > > talk, and all receive equal hearing--but is always received according to > the > > structures of expression and reception which govern the economy of that > > particular discursive field.) > > > > The other is that GPL is something of a different magnitude ofachievement > > from the other stuff that comes RAS's way. It's dominance of RAS isthus > a > > reflection of it's ability to sustain interest over what's closing in on > two > > years. (A position which, quite obviously, reflects a moretraditionally > > liberal "market of ideas" configuration.) > > > > > > Obviously, the easy way out would be to say both, but I'd like to seethe

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> > discussion get a bit deeper than that. And I'd ask contributors to the > > thread to be fair, and respectful of all the other posts. > > > > --David K. > > > > > >

You know, if you pulled out the nouns (and the odd verb) in that post, and inserted "UFO" and "government/CIA/Clinton"--or "150 mile-per-gallon carbuerator" and "GM," for that matter--the post would still make sense. That ought to tell one something. . . --DK "David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:LUvC4.11725$[email hidden]... > This has been dicussed many, many times before. > > There are a number of reasons why they behave as boorishly as they do.[snip]

On Sat, 25 Mar 2000 01:26:58 +0100, Goy Larsen <[email hidden]> wrote:

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>Richard Walker wrote: >> >> >> LOL! >> >> The perfect response to anyone so naive as to think that paid endorsements >> mean anything..... >> >> Cheers, >> Richard >> >> PS: I'm still waiting for that call from Pac West ;-) > >Pac West.......don't they have a driver named Mark Blundell there, he >said something about CPR at one point didn't he ? :-)))

Dominic Dobson, team manager for PAC-West and Indy rookie of the yearback in ?1990? did a lot of developing and testing for Microsoft on CPR. I know this because he is my son-in-law's best friend. -- * rrev at mindspring dot com *

On Fri, 24 Mar 2000 15:26:57 +0100, Goy Larsen <[email hidden]> wrote in message <[email hidden]> :

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>What, you mean "Johnny Herbert GP" and "Prost GP" isn't the 2 best F1 >simulators ever ???? > >...that they just got paid to put their name on the box ? > >...how about Bill Elliot's Nascar Racing ? > >I'm shocked.......

LOL! The perfect response to anyone so naive as to think that paid endorsements mean anything..... Cheers, Richard PS: I'm still waiting for that call from Pac West ;-)

> Some of us stick with the same old routine which we feel comfortable > in, and desperately downgrade others in order to feel good about our > decision. At risk of being rude...what utter bollocks. Captain Paranoia strikes another blow for the poor downtrodden RAS member. <comfortable routine> You're very fond of saying how popular other games are. That's great and I'm very happy for the people who enjoy them. But in my universe (which must be different to yours) popularity rarely has anything to do with quality. In modern society people usually look for the quick "retail therapy" fix rather than long term satisfaction. PC gaming, perhaps more than anything else, depends upon this fix mentality to drive the market, leading to an endless, F1-style procession of New and Improved games... and that applies to all gaming genres. </comfortable routine> Andrew McP... easing his GPL jackboots off and warming his feet beside a fire built from 2 years' worth of forgotten sims.

Goy Larsen wrote: > snip

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> What, you mean "Johnny Herbert GP" and "Prost GP" isn't the 2 best F1 > simulators ever ???? > > ...that they just got paid to put their name on the box ? > > ...how about Bill Elliot's Nascar Racing ? > > I'm shocked.......

;^) Damn, I tried to ban those titles from my memory... "I thought I'm out, but then they pull me back into it" -- l8er ronny Your mouse has moved. Windows must be restarted for the change to take effect. Reboot now? |\ _,,,---,,_ I want to die like my Grandfather, ZZZzz /,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,_ in his sleep. |,4- ) )-,_. ,\ ( `'-' Not like the people in his car, '---''(_/--' `-'\_) screaming their heads off!

"Olav K. Malmin" wrote: > > Ronald Stoehr writes: > snip

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> > They use sims, if at all, to help them learn new tracks. They could > > never > > enjoy driving the sims as we are, they do it in real life. We can get > > along > > with 70% of the experience, they are spoiled with 100%. > > 70% ? I find that a bit too much since there are so many factors missing when > simracing. Field of vision, G-forces, heat, smell, general fear and not to > forget pitbabes :)

Hey, knowing how exhausted I am after a GPL race, I was first going to say that I'm getting 100%... ;^) But you're right, just driving gokarts a little while ago I realized that we don't get even 50% of the real thing racing in front of our PCs. -- l8er ronny Your mouse has moved. Windows must be restarted for the change to take effect. Reboot now? |\ _,,,---,,_ I want to die like my Grandfather, ZZZzz /,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,_ in his sleep. |,4- ) )-,_. ,\ ( `'-' Not like the people in his car, '---''(_/--' `-'\_) screaming their heads off!

Please Cliff, Once again: Don't say there are many ...... That doesn't make sense! List (at least a few of) them! And remember we're talking racing games/sims! I can't judge on other types of games (e.g. Quake) since I haven't got time for those. Cliff Roman wrote:

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> You obviously have a biased opinion about GPL > > There are many games that have better Graphics > > There are many games that have better multiplayer >

doubt it! > > There are many games that have better sound > If you refer to music you might be right: GPL hasn't got any. If you refer to car sounds: again I doubt it! > > There are other games (right out of your note) that allow you to look at > replays without leaving the session. There are other games that allow you to > change graphics, change controllers, etc > Once again we're talking racing sims: Never seen such an enhanced replay-engine as in GPL. > > Maybe for you GPL user interface is easier because you have played it so > much you are used to it. Take someone that has never played any of these > games and I gaurantee that GPL will not be the easiest for them. What can be difficult on such a straightforward menu system? Unless you're absolutely unaware what kind of program you started (maybe some people use some sort of randomizer which automatically starts a game installed on your system) this is for sure not a difficult environment. Jan.

Cliff Roman <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:icLC4.20$[email hidden]... > You obviously have a biased opinion about GPL > > There are many games that have better Graphics Better for me can mean sumptuous, like RC2000, or it can mean "best suited to the job". GPL drops me into the era and has enough detail to make it look good, but not so much to bog things down. > There are many games that have better multiplayer Like? I have never found a more stable online racer than GPL. > There are many games that have better sound OK, it's missing the atmospheric sound of birds chirping in the forest, but I will take the Ferarri howl anyday over the RC2000 motors, the TOCA hoovers, the dreadful F1RS sounds or the generic sounds of the NFS series. > There are other games (right out of your note) that allow you to look at > replays without leaving the session. There are other games that allow youto > change graphics, change controllers, etc F2. Instant access. Easiest damn replay system in any racing game. Sweet as a mouthful of candy. Stephen

Well Cliff, make a start on the points you give! sound: ????? - Gameplay modes: ????? (we're talking sim, not games) - Physics: do I need to answer - Graphics: agreed, it's outdated. - Multiplayer: ???? (Don't have any reference but I know that WinVROC and the Leagues spin-oof of it is immersive, how the hell does Crammond dare to claim that online racing isn't acceptable) -User friendly: ??/ (haven't seen many sims with easier access to the menus then GPL, for christ sake: which sim let's you play that interactively with replay/graphic settings without exiting a race, go back to main menu do your tweaks and reload the race-environment??) Cliff Roman wrote:

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> Well Andre, break down what makes up a game. > > Gameplay modes > Graphics > Sound > Physics > How user friendly the Menus are > Multiplayer > etc.. > > Are you telling me that GPL is the best at each one of those? If a game is > better than GPL in one of those areas then that is a way in which that > particular game is better. > > It is possible that no other game beats GPLs physics, but there are many > other games that beat GPL in other ways. >

-- Jan Hovius

On Thu, 23 Mar 2000 21:20:43 GMT, "David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote: <snip> <snip> <even more snip> <yawn> >New titles are being released which surpass GPL in many ways. Some of us >move on and enjoy a new challenge. Some of us stick with the same old >routine which we feel comfortable in, and desperately downgrade others in >order to feel good about our decision. > >David G Fisher Enlighten us David, mention the titles who surpass GPL in many ways! RC2000? Sos '37? Lemans? Andre

How bout this game that no one on here talks about on RAS Avalon Hill's great game "Gilles Villeneuve GP". Now were talking sim racing! "Andre Warringa" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> On Thu, 23 Mar 2000 21:20:43 GMT, "David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> > wrote: > > <snip> > <snip> > <even more snip> > <yawn> > > >New titles are being released which surpass GPL in many ways. Some of us > >move on and enjoy a new challenge. Some of us stick with the same old > >routine which we feel comfortable in, and desperately downgrade others in > >order to feel good about our decision. > > > >David G Fisher > > Enlighten us David, mention the titles who surpass GPL in many ways! > RC2000? Sos '37? Lemans? > > Andre

I'll do that as soon as you provide me with all of the articles and quotes where current/former F1 drivers gush over the realism and accuracy of GPL. David G Fisher "Andre Warringa" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> On Thu, 23 Mar 2000 21:20:43 GMT, "David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> > wrote: > > <snip> > <snip> > <even more snip> > <yawn> > > >New titles are being released which surpass GPL in many ways. Some of us > >move on and enjoy a new challenge. Some of us stick with the same old > >routine which we feel comfortable in, and desperately downgrade others in > >order to feel good about our decision. > > > >David G Fisher > > Enlighten us David, mention the titles who surpass GPL in many ways! > RC2000? Sos '37? Lemans? > > Andre

Wait, I don't get this one. 1. You say 'New titles are being released which surpass GPL in many ways' 2. I say 'Enlighten us David, mention the titles who surpass GPL in many ways! RC2000? Sos '37? Lemans?' Now what has your answer about providing you with articles got to do with this? Just mention me all those sims that surpass GPL in many ways! Andre On Fri, 24 Mar 2000 00:46:54 GMT, "David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote:

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>I'll do that as soon as you provide me with all of the articles and quotes >where current/former F1 drivers gush over the realism and accuracy of GPL. > >David G Fisher > > >"Andre Warringa" <[email hidden]> wrote in message >news:[email hidden]... >> On Thu, 23 Mar 2000 21:20:43 GMT, "David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> >> wrote: >> >> <snip> >> <snip> >> <even more snip> >> <yawn> >> >> >New titles are being released which surpass GPL in many ways. Some of us >> >move on and enjoy a new challenge. Some of us stick with the same old >> >routine which we feel comfortable in, and desperately downgrade others in >> >order to feel good about our decision. >> > >> >David G Fisher >> >> Enlighten us David, mention the titles who surpass GPL in many ways! >> RC2000? Sos '37? Lemans? >> >> Andre

Well Andre, break down what makes up a game. Gameplay modes Graphics Sound Physics How user friendly the Menus are Multiplayer etc.. Are you telling me that GPL is the best at each one of those? If a game is better than GPL in one of those areas then that is a way in which that particular game is better. It is possible that no other game beats GPLs physics, but there are many other games that beat GPL in other ways. Andre Warringa <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> Wait, I don't get this one. > > 1. You say 'New titles are being released which surpass GPL in many > ways' > > 2. I say 'Enlighten us David, mention the titles who surpass GPL in > many ways! RC2000? Sos '37? Lemans?' > > Now what has your answer about providing you with articles got to do > with this? Just mention me all those sims that surpass GPL in many > ways! > > Andre > > On Fri, 24 Mar 2000 00:46:54 GMT, "David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> > wrote: > > >I'll do that as soon as you provide me with all of the articles and

quotes > >where current/former F1 drivers gush over the realism and accuracy ofGPL.

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> > > >David G Fisher > > > > > >"Andre Warringa" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > >news:[email hidden]... > >> On Thu, 23 Mar 2000 21:20:43 GMT, "David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> > >> wrote: > >> > >> <snip> > >> <snip> > >> <even more snip> > >> <yawn> > >> > >> >New titles are being released which surpass GPL in many ways. Some of

us > >> >move on and enjoy a new challenge. Some of us stick with the same old > >> >routine which we feel comfortable in, and desperately downgrade othersin

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> >> >order to feel good about our decision. > >> > > >> >David G Fisher > >> > >> Enlighten us David, mention the titles who surpass GPL in many ways! > >> RC2000? Sos '37? Lemans? > >> > >> Andre >

I thought we were talking about racing simulations here, not games. Andre On Fri, 24 Mar 2000 01:53:11 GMT, "Cliff Roman" <[email hidden]> wrote:

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>Well Andre, break down what makes up a game. > >Gameplay modes >Graphics >Sound >Physics >How user friendly the Menus are >Multiplayer >etc.. > >Are you telling me that GPL is the best at each one of those? If a game is >better than GPL in one of those areas then that is a way in which that >particular game is better. > >It is possible that no other game beats GPLs physics, but there are many >other games that beat GPL in other ways. > > >Andre Warringa <[email hidden]> wrote in message >news:[email hidden]... >> Wait, I don't get this one. >> >> 1. You say 'New titles are being released which surpass GPL in many >> ways' >> >> 2. I say 'Enlighten us David, mention the titles who surpass GPL in >> many ways! RC2000? Sos '37? Lemans?' >> >> Now what has your answer about providing you with articles got to do >> with this? Just mention me all those sims that surpass GPL in many >> ways! >> >> Andre >> >> On Fri, 24 Mar 2000 00:46:54 GMT, "David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> >> wrote: >> >> >I'll do that as soon as you provide me with all of the articles and >quotes >> >where current/former F1 drivers gush over the realism and accuracy of >GPL. >> > >> >David G Fisher >> > >> > >> >"Andre Warringa" <[email hidden]> wrote in message >> >news:[email hidden]... >> >> On Thu, 23 Mar 2000 21:20:43 GMT, "David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> >> >> wrote: >> >> >> >> <snip> >> >> <snip> >> >> <even more snip> >> >> <yawn> >> >> >> >> >New titles are being released which surpass GPL in many ways. Some of >us >> >> >move on and enjoy a new challenge. Some of us stick with the same old >> >> >routine which we feel comfortable in, and desperately downgrade others >in >> >> >order to feel good about our decision. >> >> > >> >> >David G Fisher >> >> >> >> Enlighten us David, mention the titles who surpass GPL in many ways! >> >> RC2000? Sos '37? Lemans? >> >> >> >> Andre >> >

<tap dance> <tap dance> Andre Warringa <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> I thought we were talking about racing simulations here, not games. > > Andre > > On Fri, 24 Mar 2000 01:53:11 GMT, "Cliff Roman" <[email hidden]> > wrote: > > >Well Andre, break down what makes up a game. > > > >Gameplay modes > >Graphics > >Sound > >Physics > >How user friendly the Menus are > >Multiplayer > >etc.. > > > >Are you telling me that GPL is the best at each one of those? If a game

is

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> >better than GPL in one of those areas then that is a way in which that > >particular game is better. > > > >It is possible that no other game beats GPLs physics, but there are many > >other games that beat GPL in other ways. > > > > > >Andre Warringa <[email hidden]> wrote in message > >news:[email hidden]... > >> Wait, I don't get this one. > >> > >> 1. You say 'New titles are being released which surpass GPL in many > >> ways' > >> > >> 2. I say 'Enlighten us David, mention the titles who surpass GPL in > >> many ways! RC2000? Sos '37? Lemans?' > >> > >> Now what has your answer about providing you with articles got to do > >> with this? Just mention me all those sims that surpass GPL in many > >> ways! > >> > >> Andre > >> > >> On Fri, 24 Mar 2000 00:46:54 GMT, "David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> > >> wrote: > >> > >> >I'll do that as soon as you provide me with all of the articles and > >quotes > >> >where current/former F1 drivers gush over the realism and accuracy of > >GPL. > >> > > >> >David G Fisher > >> > > >> > > >> >"Andre Warringa" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > >> >news:[email hidden]... > >> >> On Thu, 23 Mar 2000 21:20:43 GMT, "David G Fisher"

<[email hidden]>

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> >> >> wrote: > >> >> > >> >> <snip> > >> >> <snip> > >> >> <even more snip> > >> >> <yawn> > >> >> > >> >> >New titles are being released which surpass GPL in many ways. Some

of > >us > >> >> >move on and enjoy a new challenge. Some of us stick with the sameold > >> >> >routine which we feel comfortable in, and desperately downgradeothers

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> >in > >> >> >order to feel good about our decision. > >> >> > > >> >> >David G Fisher > >> >> > >> >> Enlighten us David, mention the titles who surpass GPL in many ways! > >> >> RC2000? Sos '37? Lemans? > >> >> > >> >> Andre > >> > > >

David G Fisher wrote: > This has been dicussed many, many times before. ><snipped the rest> David, What I really do have major problems understanding is your "bashing" of those of us who happed to think GPL is the best sim out there. If you're sick and tired of our view's, then why do you even bother to subscribe to r.a.s.? Me personally... I love GPL - for several reasons; - It simulates an era of motorsport that I like very much, quite different to Bernies merry-go-round we see today. - It challenging to drive. - The tracks avalible are awesome to race at. - The multiplayer features in GPL, beats anything I've ever tested -hands down. Sure, I like other sims. aswell... but quite honestly, I'm suprised that no other sim. has managed to beat GPL yet. I do however hope WSC will do just that... why? - It simulates a form of motorsport that I like very much, quite different to Bernies merry-go-round. :-) -- Ed Solheim

"David Karr" <[email hidden]> wrote > Okay--a serious discussion, right? naw :) > Many people here have posted messages which indicated that they felt that > the GPL fans among RAS'ers have effectively hijacked the newsgroup, making > discussion of any other sim always fraught with difficulty. Anything that > comes out, they seem to say, will be instantly met with a "It's no GPL." It could be your own reverse-psyche actually telling you "It's no GPL". At least it's better than it saying to you "Redrum". LOL :) (HGNS league joke). Well Im back to my Guinness pint. This newsgroup is principally open-wheel based. Before nobody could say anything against Nascar Racing 1 (boy that was long ago). Now it simply changed. Whatever the situation, there is absolutely nothing wrong with this newsgroup. We worship the best thing on the market. What is wrong with that? -- -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> -- May the Downforce be with you... -- http://www.WeRace.net -- People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world.

"David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote > **********This forum is NOT dominated by a rapidly growing number of newGPL > fans who are praising it's glory. I read the SAME names saying the SAME > things about GPL again and again and again for two years (must be tiring). > How could it be otherwise? Almost all of those 40,000 units were sold inthe > first months of release of GPL. Same names. Same comments.************* And why is this a bad thing? Think of r.a.s. as a place where hardcore open-wheel simracers meet after a long day of work, and go drink a pint or to at the "rec.autos.simulators bar". Everything here is socially modeled like a real life group would be. We have problem-posters, we have people who don't like each other, people who seem to have the same interest, etc... There is nothing bad in this newsgroup, and the only way it will change is naturally. When it will it will. It took the NROS for the Stock-car people to move on to a semi-private newsgroup. It now has more messages per day there than here. Is it wrong? Nope. -- -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> -- May the Downforce be with you... -- http://www.WeRace.net -- People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world.

You're probably right--it does read rather horribly. But it does make sense; only I'm too damned tired to rephrase it more clearly right now. I'll check back in later. --DK "Leaky_Valve" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > David, would it be possible for you to please use just simple words that > everyone may at least have a chance at understanding? We aren't all ashighly > educated as you obviously are and we aren't all experts in the subtletiesof the > English language.......in fact, we don't all speak English as a firstlanguage. > It may appear to some people that you are deliberately being anintellectual > snob when you use these long-winded phrases when something a littleshorter can > be used to the same effect. >

Yes, I want a collection of all the racing games that have user-friendly menus. I lay awake at night, thinking about clicking that mouse and efficiently stepping from one screen to the next. Ecstacy! --DK "Cliff Roman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:bUzC4.359$[email hidden]...

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> Well Andre, break down what makes up a game. > > Gameplay modes > Graphics > Sound > Physics > How user friendly the Menus are > Multiplayer > etc.. > > Are you telling me that GPL is the best at each one of those? If a game

is

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> better than GPL in one of those areas then that is a way in which that > particular game is better. > > It is possible that no other game beats GPLs physics, but there are many > other games that beat GPL in other ways. > > > Andre Warringa <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > Wait, I don't get this one. > > > > 1. You say 'New titles are being released which surpass GPL in many > > ways' > > > > 2. I say 'Enlighten us David, mention the titles who surpass GPL in > > many ways! RC2000? Sos '37? Lemans?' > > > > Now what has your answer about providing you with articles got to do > > with this? Just mention me all those sims that surpass GPL in many > > ways! > > > > Andre > > > > On Fri, 24 Mar 2000 00:46:54 GMT, "David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> > > wrote: > > > > >I'll do that as soon as you provide me with all of the articles and > quotes > > >where current/former F1 drivers gush over the realism and accuracy of > GPL. > > > > > >David G Fisher > > > > > > > > >"Andre Warringa" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > >news:[email hidden]... > > >> On Thu, 23 Mar 2000 21:20:43 GMT, "David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> > > >> wrote: > > >> > > >> <snip> > > >> <snip> > > >> <even more snip> > > >> <yawn> > > >> > > >> >New titles are being released which surpass GPL in many ways. Some

of > us > > >> >move on and enjoy a new challenge. Some of us stick with the sameold > > >> >routine which we feel comfortable in, and desperately downgradeothers

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> in > > >> >order to feel good about our decision. > > >> > > > >> >David G Fisher > > >> > > >> Enlighten us David, mention the titles who surpass GPL in many ways! > > >> RC2000? Sos '37? Lemans? > > >> > > >> Andre > > > >

Not a damned thing. :) --DK "ymenard" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:PtBC4.8739$[email hidden]... >We worship the best thing on the market. What is wrong with > that?

David G Fisher wrote: > > I'll do that as soon as you provide me with all of the articles and quotes > where current/former F1 drivers gush over the realism and accuracy of GPL. Who cares? Each and every time a current/former professional driver said something about racing sims, it was a PR stunt, paid advertising, etc. They use sims, if at all, to help them learn new tracks. They could never enjoy driving the sims as we are, they do it in real life. We can get along with 70% of the experience, they are spoiled with 100%. l8er ronny -- "You're one of those condescending Unix computer users!" "Here's a nickel, kid. Get yourself a better computer" - Dilbert.

Ronald Stoehr <[email hidden]> writes:

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> David G Fisher wrote: > > > > I'll do that as soon as you provide me with all of the articles and quotes > > where current/former F1 drivers gush over the realism and accuracy of GPL. > > Who cares? Each and every time a current/former professional driver said > something about racing sims, it was a PR stunt, paid advertising, etc. > > They use sims, if at all, to help them learn new tracks. They could > never > enjoy driving the sims as we are, they do it in real life. We can get > along > with 70% of the experience, they are spoiled with 100%.

70% ? I find that a bit too much since there are so many factors missing when simracing. Field of vision, G-forces, heat, smell, general fear and not to forget pitbabes :) Cue discussion -- Olav K. Malmin remove spam when replying

Sure it will; it'll just have spelling errors. --DK "Leaky_Valve" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > Not if they still spell it as "carbuerator" it won't.

Ronald Stoehr wrote:

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> > David G Fisher wrote: > > > > I'll do that as soon as you provide me with all of the articles and quotes > > where current/former F1 drivers gush over the realism and accuracy of GPL. > > Who cares? Each and every time a current/former professional driver said > something about racing sims, it was a PR stunt, paid advertising, etc. > > They use sims, if at all, to help them learn new tracks. They could > never > enjoy driving the sims as we are, they do it in real life. We can get > along > with 70% of the experience, they are spoiled with 100%.

What, you mean "Johnny Herbert GP" and "Prost GP" isn't the 2 best F1 simulators ever ???? ...that they just got paid to put their name on the box ? ...how about Bill Elliot's Nascar Racing ? I'm shocked....... Beers and cheers (uncle) Goy "Team Mirage" http://www.teammirage.com/ "The Pits" http://www.theuspits.com/ * Spam is for losers who can't get business any other way * "Spamkiller" http://www.spamkiller.com

You obviously have a biased opinion about GPL There are many games that have better Graphics There are many games that have better multiplayer There are many games that have better sound There are other games (right out of your note) that allow you to look at replays without leaving the session. There are other games that allow you to change graphics, change controllers, etc Maybe for you GPL user interface is easier because you have played it so much you are used to it. Take someone that has never played any of these games and I gaurantee that GPL will not be the easiest for them. Peter Holt <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> With the exception of possible exception of graphics, I don't believe > there had been a racing game released which surpasses GPL in any of > these areas. I have been playing RC2000 and cursing the long pauses > between screens and why can't it use the mouse?? Anybody who tells me > that the user interfaces in SCGT or MGPRS are user friendly is a > masochist. > > And why do RC2000 and DTR have such terrible steering, they feel to me > like they have been set up for a joystick, with a non-linear response. > In both games I have to use a controller utility to make up for the > game's shortcomings. Even Nascar 3, from the same stable, only allows > you to select either linear or non-linear, not to select the degree of > non-linearity you want. > > How many other other racing games allow you to use more than the first > control device? How many other games allow you to reconfigure or > recalibrate the controller or change graphic options or use the replay > function without leaving the session, whether that be training or > practice etc. RC2000 and SCGT certainly don't. Try to configure > split axis pedals in SCGT, sometimes it works and sometimes it > doesn't. I think all programmers thinking of a motor racing game > should look at the GPL user interface. > > As to graphics, I feel that beyond a certain point, and I feel GPL is > at that point, graphic detail in a motor racing game is redundant. If > I'm at Spa and heading in to Masta at 200mph, the last thing I'm > thinking about is the pretty scenery. I feel that the processor power > used could be better employed. > > As to multiplayer, GP3 won't even give you the option of multiplayer > on the 'Net. At last Papyrus included Internet support, even though > they doubted it would work well. And when people wanted to use it, > they worked to improve the performance. Same thing for > force-feedback. > > I could go on but I'll probably be accused of being a GPL fanatic, I'm > not, I enjoy all the other games I've mentioned but they all have > aspects which annoy me. GPL seems to be the only one which has no > rough edges. > > Peter Holt > > On Fri, 24 Mar 2000 01:53:11 GMT, "Cliff Roman" <[email hidden]> > wrote: > > >Well Andre, break down what makes up a game. > > > >Gameplay modes > >Graphics > >Sound > >Physics > >How user friendly the Menus are > >Multiplayer > >etc.. > > > >Are you telling me that GPL is the best at each one of those? If a game

is

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> >better than GPL in one of those areas then that is a way in which that > >particular game is better. > > > >It is possible that no other game beats GPLs physics, but there are many > >other games that beat GPL in other ways. > > > > >

just a thought...would it be possible for you to refrain from downgrading neutral posters? As a matter of fact I happen to enjoy reading how and what David Karr writes here. Why don't you simply grab a dictionary of contemporary English and have the one term or the other comfortably explained that way? Instead of criticising the use of non-colloquial language that is. I also like to read nice use of slang and everything so that is not the point. It's just that I would never ever criticise a person for the way he/she expresses him/herself as such. I'm sorry but I don't like to see you trying to limit that freedom of personal expression. Because I feel that this is really the best way to learn and improve in a different language also. My english teacher used to tell us to go subscribe to Newsweek magazine. I don't need to... got r.a.s. -Greg Leaky_Valve <[email hidden]> schrieb in im Newsbeitrag: [email hidden]... > David, would it be possible for you to please use just simple words that > everyone may at least have a chance at understanding? We aren't all ashighly > educated as you obviously are and we aren't all experts in the subtletiesof the > English language.......in fact, we don't all speak English as a firstlanguage. > It may appear to some people that you are deliberately being anintellectual > snob when you use these long-winded phrases when something a littleshorter can

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> be used to the same effect. > > David Karr wrote: > > > Okay--a serious discussion, right? > > > > > > > > GPL's dominance is thus a reflection of an insider mentality > > that serves to ridicule and thereby censor other opinions. (The

utterance > > of some position is never fully a free-speech act--all are equal, allcan > > talk, and all receive equal hearing--but is always received according tothe > > structures of expression and reception which govern the economy of that > > particular discursive field.) > > > > The other is that GPL is something of a different magnitude ofachievement > > from the other stuff that comes RAS's way. It's dominance of RAS isthus a > > reflection of it's ability to sustain interest over what's closing in ontwo > > years. (A position which, quite obviously, reflects a moretraditionally > > liberal "market of ideas" configuration.) >

Good point. Jan. =--- Ronald Stoehr <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> <Snip> > Who cares? Each and every time a current/former professional driver said > something about racing sims, it was a PR stunt, paid advertising, etc. > > They use sims, if at all, to help them learn new tracks. They could > never > enjoy driving the sims as we are, they do it in real life. We can get > along > with 70% of the experience, they are spoiled with 100%. > > l8er > ronny > > -- > "You're one of those condescending Unix computer users!" > "Here's a nickel, kid. Get yourself a better computer" - Dilbert.

Did it ever occur to you, the possibility of people raising their standards rather than expecting others to lower theirs? I'm not making a cheap shot here but it's a competitive world out there! MS "Leaky_Valve" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > No...not at all, Tim. I'm just weary of some people finding the need toact as if

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> they were sitting at a higher level and looking down their noses at us. > > > "Tim O." wrote: > > > On Thu, 23 Mar 2000 22:57:13 +1100, Leaky_Valve > > <[email hidden]> wrote: > > > > >David, would it be possible for you to please use just simple words

that > > >everyone may at least have a chance at understanding? We aren't all ashighly > > >educated as you obviously are and we aren't all experts in thesubtleties of the > > >English language.......in fact, we don't all speak English as a firstlanguage. > > >It may appear to some people that you are deliberately being anintellectual > > >snob when you use these long-winded phrases when something a littleshorter can > > >be used to the same effect. > > > > Him say Leaky Valve = Stained underpants. > > > > Tim >

On Sat, 25 Mar 2000 04:17:06 GMT, "David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote in message <65XC4.13213$[email hidden]> : >Where in my post did I say anything about "paid endorsements"? Care to post references to quotes made about any racing game where the driver hasn't been paid? Cheers, Richard

I wholeheartedly agree. GPL is the cutting edge racing sim, but it is getting old and boring after this long. I want to see the same physics engine applied to more modern race cars, with more horsepower and better handling. There are a number of other racing games that have inferior physics models but are far more fun without being too arcadish. SCGT, Viper Racing, Motocross Madness, and Gran Tourismo2 on the PSX to name a few. Mobil 1 racing is easily the state of the art when it comes to graphics , and if it had decent handling it would be at least as engrossing as GPL. Even "Swedish touring car racing", has a lot of potential for being more fun to play than GPL, given a little bit of polishing of the cpu opponents A.I.. To me the problem in this newsgroup is not that people discuss GPL too much, afterall it is a state of the art game. The problem is that those people who mention any new game that they like or are considering buying, hear that game assailed for not being as good in some area where GPL is still the best. But people forget that having the best physics model does not make GPL necessarily the best or most fun simulation. GPL is fun for me because it is a challenge to drive those ill handling vintage racecars. However, those nasty handling cars are a major distraction when you are trying to race another person or cpu opponent. That is why I usually prefer SCGT or Viper racing , because they allow me to concentrate on racing rather than fighting against the cars handling quirks. So in some respects GPL's best qualities are the very ones which make it less fun at times.

I would consider a game to be a better and more realistic simulation of real racing if it had only subjectively 80% as good a physics model as GPL , but had 4x the polygon count, and 2x the graphics resolution, and more accurate and diverse animation for the crowds and activities in the environment. GPL does not even come close to reality, and has a great deal of room for growth in areas beyond Physics models, and when another game makes headway in those areas of "simulating" reality, it should be given due credit.

On 25 Mar 2000 11:44:32 GMT, [email hidden] (Loosay2) wrote: >I would consider a game to be a better and more realistic simulation of real >racing if it had only subjectively 80% as good a physics model as GPL , but had >4x the polygon count, and 2x the graphics resolution, and more accurate and >diverse animation for the crowds and activities in the environment. What would increased polygon count, graphics resolution and animated crowd have to do with making a 'more realistic simulation of real racing'? -- * rrev at mindspring dot com *

Not if they still spell it as "carbuerator" it won't. David Karr wrote: > You know, if you pulled out the nouns (and the odd verb) in that post, and > inserted "UFO" and "government/CIA/Clinton"--or "150 mile-per-gallon > carbuerator" and "GM," for that matter--the post would still make sense. > That ought to tell one something. . .

Richard Walker wrote:

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> > > LOL! > > The perfect response to anyone so naive as to think that paid endorsements > mean anything..... > > Cheers, > Richard > > PS: I'm still waiting for that call from Pac West ;-)

Pac West.......don't they have a driver named Mark Blundell there, he said something about CPR at one point didn't he ? :-))) Beers and cheers (uncle) Goy http://www.theuspits.com http://www.teammirage.com "Mountain climbing, auto racing and bullfighting are the only true sports...all others are games." --Ernest Hemingway--

No...not at all, Tim. I'm just weary of some people finding the need to act as if they were sitting at a higher level and looking down their noses at us. "Tim O." wrote:

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> On Thu, 23 Mar 2000 22:57:13 +1100, Leaky_Valve > <[email hidden]> wrote: > > >David, would it be possible for you to please use just simple words that > >everyone may at least have a chance at understanding? We aren't all as highly > >educated as you obviously are and we aren't all experts in the subtleties of the > >English language.......in fact, we don't all speak English as a first language. > >It may appear to some people that you are deliberately being an intellectual > >snob when you use these long-winded phrases when something a little shorter can > >be used to the same effect. > > Him say Leaky Valve = Stained underpants. > > Tim

Thanks....much appreciated, David. David Karr wrote:

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> You're probably right--it does read rather horribly. But it does make > sense; only I'm too damned tired to rephrase it more clearly right now. > I'll check back in later. > > --DK > > "Leaky_Valve" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > David, would it be possible for you to please use just simple words that > > everyone may at least have a chance at understanding? We aren't all as > highly > > educated as you obviously are and we aren't all experts in the subtleties > of the > > English language.......in fact, we don't all speak English as a first > language. > > It may appear to some people that you are deliberately being an > intellectual > > snob when you use these long-winded phrases when something a little > shorter can > > be used to the same effect. > >

Where in my post did I say anything about "paid endorsements"? Nice try. All I asked for was qoutes from real F1 drivers. Something. Anything. Considering that the same old names in this newsgroup have collectively written an encyclopedia size tribute to GPL's supreme accuracy, I think it should be extremely easy to find many similiar comments from real life F1 drivers who actually know what these cars were like. There are literally thousands of possible sources where these quotes could/should be available. Yet..........still nothing. David G Fisher "Richard Walker" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> On Fri, 24 Mar 2000 15:26:57 +0100, Goy Larsen <[email hidden]> wrote in > message <[email hidden]> : > > >What, you mean "Johnny Herbert GP" and "Prost GP" isn't the 2 best F1 > >simulators ever ???? > > > >...that they just got paid to put their name on the box ? > > > >...how about Bill Elliot's Nascar Racing ? > > > >I'm shocked....... > > LOL! > > The perfect response to anyone so naive as to think that paid endorsements > mean anything..... > > Cheers, > Richard > > PS: I'm still waiting for that call from Pac West ;-) >

I just read here the other day that Montoya also uses it. David G Fisher "rrevved" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> On Sat, 25 Mar 2000 01:26:58 +0100, Goy Larsen <[email hidden]> wrote: > > >Richard Walker wrote: > >> > >> > >> LOL! > >> > >> The perfect response to anyone so naive as to think that paid

endorsements

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> >> mean anything..... > >> > >> Cheers, > >> Richard > >> > >> PS: I'm still waiting for that call from Pac West ;-) > > > >Pac West.......don't they have a driver named Mark Blundell there, he > >said something about CPR at one point didn't he ? :-))) > > Dominic Dobson, team manager for PAC-West and Indy rookie > of the yearback in ?1990? did a lot of developing and testing > for Microsoft on CPR. > > I know this because he is my son-in-law's best friend. > > -- > * rrev at mindspring dot com *

With the exception of possible exception of graphics, I don't believe there had been a racing game released which surpasses GPL in any of these areas. I have been playing RC2000 and cursing the long pauses between screens and why can't it use the mouse?? Anybody who tells me that the user interfaces in SCGT or MGPRS are user friendly is a masochist. And why do RC2000 and DTR have such terrible steering, they feel to me like they have been set up for a joystick, with a non-linear response. In both games I have to use a controller utility to make up for the game's shortcomings. Even Nascar 3, from the same stable, only allows you to select either linear or non-linear, not to select the degree of non-linearity you want. How many other other racing games allow you to use more than the first control device? How many other games allow you to reconfigure or recalibrate the controller or change graphic options or use the replay function without leaving the session, whether that be training or practice etc. RC2000 and SCGT certainly don't. Try to configure split axis pedals in SCGT, sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. I think all programmers thinking of a motor racing game should look at the GPL user interface. As to graphics, I feel that beyond a certain point, and I feel GPL is at that point, graphic detail in a motor racing game is redundant. If I'm at Spa and heading in to Masta at 200mph, the last thing I'm thinking about is the pretty scenery. I feel that the processor power used could be better employed. As to multiplayer, GP3 won't even give you the option of multiplayer on the 'Net. At last Papyrus included Internet support, even though they doubted it would work well. And when people wanted to use it, they worked to improve the performance. Same thing for force-feedback. I could go on but I'll probably be accused of being a GPL fanatic, I'm not, I enjoy all the other games I've mentioned but they all have aspects which annoy me. GPL seems to be the only one which has no rough edges. Peter Holt On Fri, 24 Mar 2000 01:53:11 GMT, "Cliff Roman" <[email hidden]> wrote:

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>Well Andre, break down what makes up a game. > >Gameplay modes >Graphics >Sound >Physics >How user friendly the Menus are >Multiplayer >etc.. > >Are you telling me that GPL is the best at each one of those? If a game is >better than GPL in one of those areas then that is a way in which that >particular game is better. > >It is possible that no other game beats GPLs physics, but there are many >other games that beat GPL in other ways. > >

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. That's an epistemological point, by the way. --DK "David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:65XC4.13213$[email hidden]... [circumsize] >There are literally > thousands of possible sources where these quotes could/should beavailable. > > Yet..........still nothing. > > David G Fisher >

ROFL I have nightmares about menus. They stop me from racing! Nooooo!!!! David Karr wrote in message <8bervb$s99$[email hidden]>... >Yes, I want a collection of all the racing games that have user-friendly >menus. I lay awake at night, thinking about clicking that mouse and >efficiently stepping from one screen to the next. Ecstacy! > >--DK >

On Sat, 25 Mar 2000 06:10:19 -0600, rrevved <[email hidden]> wrote:

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>On 25 Mar 2000 11:44:32 GMT, [email hidden] (Loosay2) wrote: > >>I would consider a game to be a better and more realistic simulation of real >>racing if it had only subjectively 80% as good a physics model as GPL , but had >>4x the polygon count, and 2x the graphics resolution, and more accurate and >>diverse animation for the crowds and activities in the environment. > >What would increased polygon count, graphics resolution and animated >crowd have to do with making a 'more realistic simulation of real racing'?

This actually sounds a lot like what EA Sports has been doing with its games over the last few years. Net result of the prettier graphics and same old gameplay? "More realistic than ever!" Martin Long Live Nigel Mansell!

Fair enough. That's a good way of looking at it. --DK PS How about 85%? "Loosay2" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > I would consider a game to be a better and more realistic simulation ofreal > racing if it had only subjectively 80% as good a physics model as GPL ,but had > 4x the polygon count, and 2x the graphics resolution, and more accurateand > diverse animation for the crowds and activities in the environment. GPLdoes > not even come close to reality, and has a great deal of room for growth in > areas beyond Physics models, and when another game makes headway in thoseareas > of "simulating" reality, it should be given due credit.

Constantly up to their Knees in Nasty Swamp Water, the Fierce but Plodding Epistesaurus never Ate a GPL Car;-tho' One once Thoroughly Ticked Off John Surtees. --DK "Bruce Kennewell" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> Were they around during the Jurassic or Crustacean period, David? > > -- > Regards, > Bruce Kennewell, > Canberra, Australia. > --------------------------- > > David Karr <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:8bhgrh$b5e$[email hidden]... > > That's an epistemological > > point, by the way. > > > > >

David G Fisher <[email hidden]> wrote: : Where in my post did I say anything about "paid endorsements"? : Nice try. : All I asked for was qoutes from real F1 drivers. Something. Anything. : Considering that the same old names in this newsgroup have collectively : written an encyclopedia size tribute to GPL's supreme accuracy, I think it : should be extremely easy to find many similiar comments from real life F1 : drivers who actually know what these cars were like. There are literally : thousands of possible sources where these quotes could/should be available. : Yet..........still nothing. Yes - but hold on - the GP drivers won't knowwhat level of accuracy to expect will they. I read a quote from one of the prost drivers a couple of years back praising the realism of the Psygnosis abomination for that year. To take a driver unpaid endorsement of a game seriously you need to be sure that the driver comes with the right expectations. -- Richard G. Clegg Only the mind is waving Networks and Non-Linear Dynamics Group Dept. of Mathematics, Uni. of York UPDATED WWW: http://manor.york.ac.uk/

Were they around during the Jurassic or Crustacean period, David? -- Regards, Bruce Kennewell, Canberra, Australia. --------------------------- David Karr <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:8bhgrh$b5e$[email hidden]... > That's an epistemological > point, by the way. >

No, I must admit that it didn't, Mark. Probably because this is a forum....much as a discussion in any public place is....and, as such, I would have expected the orator to use words that he/she know would best get the message across to the audience. But that's just my opinion. Mark Seery wrote:

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> Did it ever occur to you, the possibility of people raising their standards > rather than expecting others to lower theirs? > > I'm not making a cheap shot here but it's a competitive world out there! > > MS > "Leaky_Valve" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > No...not at all, Tim. I'm just weary of some people finding the need to > act as if > > they were sitting at a higher level and looking down their noses at us. > > > > > > "Tim O." wrote: > > > > > On Thu, 23 Mar 2000 22:57:13 +1100, Leaky_Valve > > > <[email hidden]> wrote: > > > > > > >David, would it be possible for you to please use just simple words > that > > > >everyone may at least have a chance at understanding? We aren't all as > highly > > > >educated as you obviously are and we aren't all experts in the > subtleties of the > > > >English language.......in fact, we don't all speak English as a first > language. > > > >It may appear to some people that you are deliberately being an > intellectual > > > >snob when you use these long-winded phrases when something a little > shorter can > > > >be used to the same effect. > > > > > > Him say Leaky Valve = Stained underpants. > > > > > > Tim > >

Great opener for the 2000 Bulwer-Lytton contest! :-) -- Regards, Bruce Kennewell, Canberra, Australia. --------------------------- David Karr <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:8biev9$f0p$[email hidden]... > Constantly up to their Knees in Nasty Swamp Water, the Fierce but Plodding > Epistesaurus never Ate a GPL Car;-tho' One once Thoroughly Ticked Off John > Surtees. > > --DK > > > > "Bruce Kennewell" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > Were they around during the Jurassic or Crustacean period, David? > > > > -- > > Regards, > > Bruce Kennewell, > > Canberra, Australia. > > --------------------------- > > > > David Karr <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:8bhgrh$b5e$[email hidden]... > > > That's an epistemological > > > point, by the way. > > > > > > > > > > >

Try playing an older racing sim with a good physics model and low rez 320x200 graphics. No moving clouds. chunky pixellated scenery. 2d trees and sign posts versus 3d. No car reflections. And all of the other visual shortcomings of racing sims from pre 3d accelerator days. Reality is filled with Hi Rez graphics and no pixelation and full screen anti-aliasing and crowds in motion making noise, and clouds moving and sunshine, and an infinite number of other visual environmental effects, which are afterall what we are trying to mimic in a simulation.

EA has failed majorly in other areas of creating a good sim in the past. consequently, nice hi Rez graphics and models could hardly compensate for those other problems. But, that still does not negate the importance of graphics in simulating a realistic experience, we are principally visually dependent beings afterall. By analogy, would a hamburger be 99% as enjoyable without seeing the crisp green lettuce and tomatos peeking from under the golden brown bun, and smelling the distinctive aromas, or feeling the texture of it against your tongue and teeth? Mere taste alone does not suffice.

"Majorly"?!!!! What a lovely new word....I like it! :-) -- Regards, Bruce Kennewell, Canberra, Australia. --------------------------- Loosay2 <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > EA has failed majorly in other areas of creating a good sim in the past. > consequently, nice hi Rez graphics and models could hardly compensate for those > other problems. But, that still does not negate the importance of graphics in > simulating a realistic experience, we are principally visually dependent beings > afterall. By analogy, would a hamburger be 99% as enjoyable without seeing the > crisp green lettuce and tomatos peeking from under the golden brown bun, and > smelling the distinctive aromas, or feeling the texture of it against your > tongue and teeth? Mere taste alone does not suffice.

Sorry but I am not interested in what the crowd are doing when I am struggling to get through 'Chicken Bone Alley' at Monaco... The last thing I want a developer to be doing is spending time on things that do not improve the actual racing part of the game. I have a hard enough time concentrating on the track in front of me so I certainly don't want any distractions outside the track. Peter Hooper Loosay2 <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > I would consider a game to be a better and more realistic simulation ofreal > racing if it had only subjectively 80% as good a physics model as GPL ,but had > 4x the polygon count, and 2x the graphics resolution, and more accurateand > diverse animation for the crowds and activities in the environment. GPLdoes > not even come close to reality, and has a great deal of room for growth in > areas beyond Physics models, and when another game makes headway in thoseareas > of "simulating" reality, it should be given due credit.

I just don't see why you insist on going on about this David, so you're fed up with people going on about GPL, why not just ignore those posts and read the ones that do interest you. Why are you so interested in the seeing quotes from real drivers, I do not need anybody else to tell me whether something is good or not I am quite capable of making my own mind up about that. Peter Hooper David G Fisher <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:65XC4.13213$[email hidden]...

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> Where in my post did I say anything about "paid endorsements"? > > Nice try. > > All I asked for was qoutes from real F1 drivers. Something. Anything. > Considering that the same old names in this newsgroup have collectively > written an encyclopedia size tribute to GPL's supreme accuracy, I think it > should be extremely easy to find many similiar comments from real life F1 > drivers who actually know what these cars were like. There are literally > thousands of possible sources where these quotes could/should be

available.

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> > Yet..........still nothing. > > David G Fisher > > > "Richard Walker" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > On Fri, 24 Mar 2000 15:26:57 +0100, Goy Larsen <[email hidden]> wrote in > > message <[email hidden]> : > > > > >What, you mean "Johnny Herbert GP" and "Prost GP" isn't the 2 best F1 > > >simulators ever ???? > > > > > >...that they just got paid to put their name on the box ? > > > > > >...how about Bill Elliot's Nascar Racing ? > > > > > >I'm shocked....... > > > > LOL! > > > > The perfect response to anyone so naive as to think that paid

endorsements

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> > mean anything..... > > > > Cheers, > > Richard > > > > PS: I'm still waiting for that call from Pac West ;-) > > >

In article <8bhgrh$b5e$[email hidden]>, "David Karr" <[email hidden]> writes: >Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. That's an epistemological >point, by the way. > >--DK That's a *what* point??? Rats, now I have to find a dictionary. I was doing just *fine* until THAT word...<g> Eldred -- Tiger Stadium R.I.P. 1912-1999 Own Grand Prix Legends? Goto http://gpl.gamestats.com/vroc Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

To save you a job ;) epistemology , the theory of knowledge, esp. with regard to its methods and validation. philosophy n. metaphysics, epistemology, logic, natural or moral or metaphysical philosophy, rationalism, thinking, aesthetics: He views philosophy as the attempt to describe and codify universal truths. I'd never heard of it either, still don't know what it means though <G> -- Ian Parker [email hidden] [email hidden] == EldredP <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > In article <8bhgrh$b5e$[email hidden]>, "David Karr" > <[email hidden]> writes: > > >Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. That's an epistemological > >point, by the way. > > > >--DK > > That's a *what* point??? > Rats, now I have to find a dictionary. I was doing just *fine* until THAT > word...<g> > > Eldred > -- > Tiger Stadium R.I.P. 1912-1999 > Own Grand Prix Legends? Goto http://gpl.gamestats.com/vroc > > Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you > with experience... > Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

In article <HN5H4.6872$[email hidden]>, "Ian P" <[email hidden]> writes:

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>To save you a job ;) > >epistemology , >the theory of knowledge, esp. with regard to its methods and validation. > >philosophy n. > metaphysics, epistemology, logic, natural or moral or metaphysical >philosophy, rationalism, thinking, aesthetics: He views philosophy as the >attempt to describe and codify universal truths. > > >I'd never heard of it either, still don't know what it means though <G> > >-- >Ian Parker

Thanks Ian. How do people come UP with these words...?<g> Eldred -- Tiger Stadium R.I.P. 1912-1999 Own Grand Prix Legends? Goto http://gpl.gamestats.com/vroc Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

In article <[email hidden]>, EldredP <[email hidden]> writes

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>In article <8bhgrh$b5e$[email hidden]>, "David Karr" ><[email hidden]> writes: > >>Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. That's an >epistemological >>point, by the way. >> >>--DK > >That's a *what* point??? >Rats, now I have to find a dictionary. I was doing just *fine* until THAT >word...<g> > >Eldred

After reading Ian's meaning for the epis.... whatever?! It sounds like he's saying it's a theoretical statement and not a statement of fact. In other words the statement is not a 'hard truth' as such but more a theoretical truth. Or have I got my head up my arse? :) -- Peter Ives - (AKA Ivington) No person's opinions can be said to be more correct than another's, because each is the sole judge of his or her own experience.

Ian P wrote: > > To save you a job ;) > > epistemology , > the theory of knowledge, esp. with regard to its methods and validation. > Gee. Thought epistemology was the uncanny ability to piss people off. I've kinda majored in that one!<g>. -- Chuck Kandler #70 K&S Racing http://www.fortunecity.com/silverstone/thepits/195 Competitor in the TopGear MGPRS2 league at: http://topgear.dhs.org/ Come on & join the fun! They'll call you names And spit in your face, But legends never die. --Gene Simmons

I have no idea !! <G> I just had a free version of the Oxford compendium on CD Rom so thought I'd give it a test run ;) -- Ian Parker == EldredP <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > In article <HN5H4.6872$[email hidden]>, "Ian P" > <[email hidden]> writes: > > >To save you a job ;) > > > >epistemology , > >the theory of knowledge, esp. with regard to its methods and validation. > > > >philosophy n. > > metaphysics, epistemology, logic, natural or moral or metaphysical > >philosophy, rationalism, thinking, aesthetics: He views philosophy as the > >attempt to describe and codify universal truths. > > > > > >I'd never heard of it either, still don't know what it means though <G> > > > >-- > >Ian Parker > > Thanks Ian. > How do people come UP with these words...?<g> > > Eldred > -- > Tiger Stadium R.I.P. 1912-1999 > Own Grand Prix Legends? Goto http://gpl.gamestats.com/vroc > > Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you > with experience... > Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.