Re: sorry for that (shitty ctrl-enter combi) continued

Hi, I recently went down the same road, too. I think the choice of DirectX is an obvious one, especially since it caters not only to the 3d cards but also of the sound and networking. One could use OpenGL instead, but since MS sadly didn't accept it as standard in Windows, it is not as well supported. A very good book on race car dynamics is Milliken & Milliken's 'Race Car Vehicle Dynamics' (ISBN: 1560915269), but you would also need a book that covers rigid body dynamics if you are not thoroughly familiar with the topic. I can recomend H. Goldstein, Classical Mechanics (ISBN: 0-201-02918-9) that can be consider as one of the standard books in some university physics courses, so it should be pretty easy to find it in dedicated libraries. I don't have any experience with programming DirectX, I am just starting to learn (I only got as far as to initalize the 3D sreen so far :) ). If you are still learning, too, perhaps we can discuss some more over e-mail. I hope I was able to help a bit, -Gregor

[email hidden] (Jo Helsen) wrote:

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>On Thu, 30 Mar 2000 09:38:00 GMT, "Harjan Brand" <[email hidden]> >wrote: > >>After reading some posts lasts week about open source sims being created by >>a group I got very interested in giving it a try myself. So since several >>days I've done quite some reading and trying and everything is coming to >>quite slowly. It's all in a very early stage but can you guys just give me >>some >> >> >Oh no! Now everybody is going for his own sim! ;-)

Yeah, me too <g> Remco

After reading some posts lasts week about open source sims being created by a group I got very interested in giving it a try myself. So since several days I've done quite some reading and trying and everything is coming to quite slowly. It's all in a very early stage but can you guys just give me some

After reading some posts lasts week about open source sims being created by a group I got very interested in giving it a try myself. So since several days I've done quite some reading and trying and everything is coming to me quite slowly. It's all in a very early stage but can you guys just give me some advice on a few subjects. This will never go commercial since my knowledge is just far too little, especially on 3d-programming. I just hope you guys can help me out on this steep learning curve. First of all could someone pass me the address of Nunnini's setup page, it contains some physics which I intend on using. And other links on racing car physics are welcome ofcourse (good books as well). I've got no experience with track files at all, what do they contain exactly? When using DirectX could a track be made of just one big .x file (so a converted 3ds studio)? Is there any usable track editor out there which format I could easily use for my project? So far I've set some goals of what I would like to achieve: First of all I want this car driving on a drag strip.I'll try to model every sensible component that I can (I've already dropped the engine, it's just a matrix of revs, torque and power and some other variables now). I'll keep on using that drag strip untill the physics are somewhat finished. By that time I hope there will be a good way (and fairly easy one) to make tracks. It will be open source, using Direct3D (I know it's not the best way, but most books about directsound and directplay have a large portion covering it, so costwise it's somewhat better.), modelling one Formula Ford car (no AI), physics will go as far as my knowledge (and in the future maybe others) will let it go, TCP-IP multiplayer. As you see it's quite prestigious for someone with my experience, but it's just to learn some new things and see what difficulties developers face when making sims. I now have even ten times more respect for Papy creating GPL, it's absolutely amazing how they have dealt with all those difficulties. Please just post everything you know, I need the information badly.

On Thu, 30 Mar 2000 09:38:00 GMT, "Harjan Brand" <[email hidden]> wrote:

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>After reading some posts lasts week about open source sims being created by >a group I got very interested in giving it a try myself. So since several >days I've done quite some reading and trying and everything is coming to >quite slowly. It's all in a very early stage but can you guys just give me >some > >

Oh no! Now everybody is going for his own sim! ;-) Harjan, all the luck with your project, but this could be a potentially negative evolution.. There aren't a *thousand* really talented people out there with enough time to help developing a whole ZOO of open source sims. So if they have to divide their attention between 2-3 instead of 1 project, it probably doesn't help the quality? What about anticipating to this? Maybe contact Paul Hoad and concentrate on a seperate physics engine, but with standard interfaces so it could use the same format for objects,carshapes,textures, tracks etc.? Or at least try to work out some tools for easy conversion? Just an idea... JoH

I fully understand what you mean Jo, but starting my own project is the only way for me to get enough knowledge to be of any use to somebody else. At the moment I wouldn't have a lot to offer to Paul, maybe somewhere along the development we can come together. My goal is to create a good editable physics engine with a nice 3d-engine which offers the possibilty to all online artists to create objects, textures and tracks. I'll contact Paul to ask what his plans are with these formats. The problem with these things is that most people quit their project after some months hard work. Leaving the rest of the group in despair. To avoid this I plan on doing most of the things myself, with preferably the help/information of others. That way I want to create some sort of a platform from where others can join in and customize the project. I also realize there's a big change of myself quitting after a couple of moments, but at least it won't affect others. So please just support me and tell me everything there is to know on this subject, because I need the support. Harjan. "Jo Helsen" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > On Thu, 30 Mar 2000 09:38:00 GMT, "Harjan Brand" <[email hidden]> > wrote: > > >After reading some posts lasts week about open source sims being createdby > >a group I got very interested in giving it a try myself. So since several > >days I've done quite some reading and trying and everything is coming to > >quite slowly. It's all in a very early stage but can you guys just giveme

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> >some > > > > > Oh no! Now everybody is going for his own sim! ;-) > > Harjan, all the luck with your project, but this could be a > potentially negative evolution.. There aren't a *thousand* really > talented people out there with enough time to help developing a whole > ZOO of open source sims. So if they have to divide their attention > between 2-3 instead of 1 project, it probably doesn't help the > quality? > > What about anticipating to this? Maybe contact Paul Hoad and > concentrate on a seperate physics engine, but with standard interfaces > so it could use the same format for objects,carshapes,textures, tracks > etc.? Or at least try to work out some tools for easy conversion? > > Just an idea... > > JoH > >

On Thu, 30 Mar 2000 13:18:16 GMT, "Harjan Brand" <[email hidden]> wrote:

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>I fully understand what you mean Jo, but starting my own project is the only >way for me to get enough knowledge to be of any use to somebody else. >At the moment I wouldn't have a lot to offer to Paul, maybe somewhere along >the development we can come together. >My goal is to create a good editable physics engine with a nice 3d-engine >which offers the possibilty to all online artists to create objects, >textures and tracks. I'll contact Paul to ask what his plans are with these >formats. > >The problem with these things is that most people quit their project after >some months hard work. Leaving the rest of the group in despair. To avoid >this I plan on doing most of the things myself, with preferably the >help/information of others. That way I want to create some sort of a >platform from where others can join in and customize the project. >I also realize there's a big change of myself quitting after a couple of >moments, but at least it won't affect others. So please just support me and >tell me everything there is to know on this subject, because I need the >support. > >Harjan.

Unfortunately, I don't have the tiniest clue about anything that is needed to develop a sim <G> I can be testdriver, and that will be all I'm afraid. JoH

I am sure there will no shortage of test driver requests for your sim, Harjan :) Sorry to hear about the Audi drive. A colleague (slow driver) had a corporate day out driving various Audis & others - at a Palmer run location (Bedford?). Anyway the finale was a Formula Palmer Audi drive - boy was I envious :( Tony "Harjan Brand" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:CALE4.2339$[email hidden]... > The problem is test driving is probably the one thing I'm really made for > too. As you might probably know I've done quite some Formula Ford tests,and > recently I've driven a Formula Palmer Audi (I have to admit it was a > complete disaster, I don't know why but I just wasn't myself) >

The problem is test driving is probably the one thing I'm really made for too. As you might probably know I've done quite some Formula Ford tests, and recently I've driven a Formula Palmer Audi (I have to admit it was a complete disaster, I don't know why but I just wasn't myself) "Jo Helsen" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > On Thu, 30 Mar 2000 13:18:16 GMT, "Harjan Brand" <[email hidden]> > wrote: > > >I fully understand what you mean Jo, but starting my own project is theonly > >way for me to get enough knowledge to be of any use to somebody else. > >At the moment I wouldn't have a lot to offer to Paul, maybe somewherealong > >the development we can come together. > >My goal is to create a good editable physics engine with a nice 3d-engine > >which offers the possibilty to all online artists to create objects, > >textures and tracks. I'll contact Paul to ask what his plans are withthese > >formats. > > > >The problem with these things is that most people quit their projectafter > >some months hard work. Leaving the rest of the group in despair. To avoid > >this I plan on doing most of the things myself, with preferably the > >help/information of others. That way I want to create some sort of a > >platform from where others can join in and customize the project. > >I also realize there's a big change of myself quitting after a couple of > >moments, but at least it won't affect others. So please just support meand

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> >tell me everything there is to know on this subject, because I need the > >support. > > > >Harjan. > > Unfortunately, I don't have the tiniest clue about anything that is > needed to develop a sim <G> > > I can be testdriver, and that will be all I'm afraid. > > JoH > >

On Thu, 30 Mar 2000, Gregor Veble wrote: > A very good book on race car dynamics is Milliken & Milliken's 'Race Car > Vehicle Dynamics' (ISBN: 1560915269), but you would also need a book > that covers rigid body dynamics if you are not thoroughly familiar with > the topic. I can recomend H. Goldstein, Classical Mechanics (ISBN: > 0-201-02918-9) that can be consider as one of the standard books in some Thank you for the "plug"! We have also written a companion "Workbook" which includes problems and, at the end, a list of references/textbooks for various related topics. If you order both at one time, you get a reduced price (still quite expensive, like most textbooks). Best place to order is probably from SAE, the publishers. I think this link is still good: <http://www.sae.org/products/books/R-146.htm>. If you pay by credit card they give reduced shipping price. Good luck (to the original poster) with this project -- it is ambitious, and you will learn a lot (no matter how far you are able to go). -- Doug Douglas Milliken <[email hidden]> Milliken Research Associates Inc.

"Harjan Brand" <[email hidden]> wrote: >First of all could someone pass me the address of Nunnini's setup page, it >contains some physics which I intend on using. http://nunnini.homepage.com/ >And other links on racing car >physics are welcome ofcourse (good books as well). Book: Milliken & Milliken's 'Race Car Vehicle Dynamics" ISBN:1-56091-526-9 Links: Physics: http://www.psky.com/ http://www.nas.nasa.gov/Services/Education/Resources/TeacherWork/RaceCar/Aerodynamics_In_Car_Racing.html http://www.d6.com/users/checker/ http://members.home.net/rck/phor/index.html http://www.techreview.com/articles/oct99/cavanaugh.htm http://www.sae.org/ http://www.jasc.com/ http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~mirtich/massProps.html http://www.magic-software.com/gr_misc.htm http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~baraff/sigcourse/index.html http://aerodyn.org/Annexes/Racing/racing.html Fileformats: http://www.wotsit.org/

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>I've got no experience with track files at all, what do they contain >exactly? When using DirectX could a track be made of just one big .x file >(so a converted 3ds studio)? Is there any usable track editor out there >which format I could easily use for my project? >So far I've set some goals of what I would like to achieve: >First of all I want this car driving on a drag strip.I'll try to model every >sensible component that I can (I've already dropped the engine, it's just a >matrix of revs, torque and power and some other variables now). I'll keep on >using that drag strip untill the physics are somewhat finished. By that time >I hope there will be a good way (and fairly easy one) to make tracks.

You need to create your own trackformat. Forget the X-file format, you better create your own. (Although you CAN use Xfiles in D3DIM, and the Xfile format is documented. And there is a conversiontool X<->3DS. But in the end, I think you'll go to use your own file format anyway...) I think you'll come to the conclusion you've to create a trackeditor yourself, al be it in the form of multiple tools or in a full blown WYSIWYG version. With the latter you enable others to create tracks. >It will be open source, using Direct3D (I know it's not the best way, but >most books about directsound and directplay have a large portion covering >it, so costwise it's somewhat better.), modelling one Formula Ford car (no >AI), physics will go as far as my knowledge (and in the future maybe others) >will let it go, TCP-IP multiplayer. I think that DirectX is the best way to go if you want to reach the most videocards. Since you're not planning to go commercial, you also can use Glide or OpenGL. For my own project I decided to use DirectX7. As you said, DirectPlay is good for multiplay. And as a bonus, an example of DirectSound in the Dx7 SDK, when used with a GPL engine sound, produces the same result as in GPL. Also, an example of DirectInput in the Dx7 SDK is already usuable, and include ForceFeedback. Tools: Go for VC6 and the DirectX7 SDK. Tips: Don't use the D3D Retain mode, go for the Immediate mode. Also take a look to the D3DX functions. When you start, start with D3D. You need a lot of what you learn there in the other parts of your project. Concentrate on views, models, lights and materials. After that, focus on timing. You need to update the physics x times a second, and for a good result you need at least 250Hz. (GPL uses 288 Hz). You also need to find out when to update the display. Remember, a smooth framerate is better then a fast framerate. (100 FPS is no good when those 100 frames are displayed in the first halve of a second, if in the next halve there are no frames at all) Now you can do graphics, and you've thought about the timing. Time for the physics. IMO better go for real physics (6DOF), don't start with faking the car behaviour. Focus on Rigid Body Dynamics. See my links for some information on physics. You will like the first one... Only now you can start on designing/coding your program. You can probably reuse some code you wrote while learning the concepts. The Sound, Controller, User Interface and Networkcode is next, but that will be a breeze if you've the other stuff working. Oh, before I forget, you need math...loads of it <g> Hope this was any help.... Success! Remco PS You can follow the status of my project on: http://www.rmoedt.cistron.nl/ I'm still in the Direct3D stage, playing with views. So, no need to visit that page if you're only interested in driving a car...warned ya!