Re: GPL --Noonan! Watch your back!

Anyone got Yates' email address??? Let the flames commence... ...Colin

Here is a link to the article...send your email to speedvision.com http://www.speedvision.com/pub/articles/racing/08inews/000405a.html -- don [|]-(_)-[|] Colin <colin AT yourmiata DOT COM> wrote in message news:8cifdj$27l$[email hidden]... > Anyone got Yates' email address??? > Let the flames commence... > ...Colin > > >

David Karr wrote the following > I found this news at the Apex forum (http://gpl.gamestats.com/ ), postedby: ===> Snip! ===> Unsnip! >Yet to be > tried are Winston Cup stockers from the "NASCAR Racing" series on greatroad > courses like Spa and the Nurburgring, which is of course possible with > Noonan's program. ===> Snip again! "which is of course possible with Noonan's program"? This I was not aware of. How do I convert tracks FROM GPL TO Nascar 3 with David's great converter? Should that have been "which of course WOULD be possible if Dave had designed a converter that would do that"? Pops

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] (John Simmons) wrote: >9) If it wasn't for the rogue programmers out here in the wild, many of >these sims wouldn't live longer than 3-6 months before being retired to a >box in the garage. > Wouldn't that be what the publishers want? Z. Please remove my_pants when replying.

> NOW! THE REAL ISSUE! > You numbskulls are missing the point! Don't FLAME the guy. Thank him > for spreading the word! 1. My skull is not numb. It's actually quite sensitive thank you very much and as such I'm deeply hurt by your insults <g> 2. Negative publicity is not good publicity. (quotes from Yates "Good news for racing simulation geeks", references to "scuzzy basements" etc) > Let him know we APPRECIATE it when anything about our > cult is mentioned. Did that, just corrected his wildy innacurate claims of 3 million dollar losses. > Then if you must, offer to be his technical advisor and offer to dig > up the necessary info, so that is future work will be more accurate. How about a firm kick in the nether regions for his "underground source" J.J. Hunsecker II?? That sounds like more fun to me... ...Colin

But the question is: Do we care? :) Andre

I found this news at the Apex forum (http://gpl.gamestats.com/ ), posted by one Johnny Lugnuts: from Yates' column at www.speedvision.com --------- Good news for racing simulation geeks; bad news for Papyrus, the big player in that popular industry. My underground source, J.J. Hunsecker II, tells me that a Brit computer genius named Dave Noonan has developed a program whereby you can run your 1967 "Grand Prix Legends" Formula 1 cars on any one of almost 30 road courses and speedways. Want to try your V12 AAR Eagle on the Bristol half-mile? How about a Lotus 49 at Elkhart Lake, or a BRM at Suzuka, or maybe Imola? It's all possible, thanks to ol' Dave and his skunkworks, surely located in a scuzzy basement somewhere in the Midlands. Needless to say, this development is akin to tearing out the pages of a book and re-arranging them and therefore calls into question whether or not copyrights are actually infringed; this has to make the guys at Papyrus nuts. My man J.J. says that it's costing Papyrus over $3m a year. Yet to be tried are Winston Cup stockers from the "NASCAR Racing" series on great road courses like Spa and the Nurburgring, which is of course possible with Noonan's program. Apparently the stock-car gamers don't care about road courses, although the "GP Legends" gang are having a grand old time experimenting on all manner of obscure tracks.. ------- --DK

In article <8ci04c$39c$[email hidden]>, [email hidden] says...

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> I found this news at the Apex forum (http://gpl.gamestats.com/ ), posted by > one Johnny Lugnuts: > > > from Yates' column at www.speedvision.com > --------- > > Good news for racing simulation geeks; bad news for Papyrus, the big player > in that popular industry. My underground source, J.J. Hunsecker II, tells me > that a Brit computer genius named Dave Noonan has developed a program > whereby you can run your 1967 "Grand Prix Legends" Formula 1 cars on any one > of almost 30 road courses and speedways. Want to try your V12 AAR Eagle on > the Bristol half-mile? How about a Lotus 49 at Elkhart Lake, or a BRM at > Suzuka, or maybe Imola? It's all possible, thanks to ol' Dave and his > skunkworks, surely located in a scuzzy basement somewhere in the Midlands. > Needless to say, this development is akin to tearing out the pages of a book > and re-arranging them and therefore calls into question whether or not > copyrights are actually infringed; this has to make the guys at Papyrus > nuts. My man J.J. says that it's costing Papyrus over $3m a year. Yet to be > tried are Winston Cup stockers from the "NASCAR Racing" series on great road > courses like Spa and the Nurburgring, which is of course possible with > Noonan's program. Apparently the stock-car gamers don't care about road > courses, although the "GP Legends" gang are having a grand old time > experimenting on all manner of obscure tracks.. >

This is a crock of shit. 1) There's actually almost 50 tracks available. 2) The converter requires that you have the sims that contain the tracks that are convertable. 3) The converter does not include any code originally created by Sierra/Papyrus. 4) This converter doesn't cost Papy anything. If nothing else, it promoted a small SURGE in sales of what is universally recognized as a series of obsolete sims, namely Indy Car racing 2 (or CART 2 for the politically correct readers), Nascar Racing, and Nascar Legends. 5) If Sierra/Papy had released a converter, THEY would be making money off of it instead of Dave Noonan. 6) If Sierra/Papy had made tracks compatible between sims, THEY would sell more copies of their sims, and a converter wouldn't be necessary. 7) Some of us Nascar gamers DO care about road courses, and would love a chance to drive at some of the wider road courses. 8) This guy should get a grip before he spews garbage like this. 9) If it wasn't for the rogue programmers out here in the wild, many of these sims wouldn't live longer than 3-6 months before being retired to a box in the garage. -- ========================================================= Redneck Techno-Biker (Zerex12) http://www.members.home.net/jms1/index.html Barbarian Diecast Collector (420+ cars and counting) http://members.home.net/jsimm/diecast_index.html DeMONS Scheduler for N3 and NL http://www.paddedwall.org/demons If you want to send me email, go to the first URL shown above & click "Send Me Mail" in the contents frame. =========================================================

[email hidden] (John Simmons) wrote: >This is a crock of shit. Hmmm, I'm not sure, but it could be that using the converter is a violation of the terms of agreement you agreed with when installing the game..... Remco

> nuts. My man J.J. says that it's costing Papyrus over $3m a year. Yet tobe > tried are Winston Cup stockers from the "NASCAR Racing" series on greatroad

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> courses like Spa and the Nurburgring, which is of course possible with > Noonan's program. Apparently the stock-car gamers don't care about road > courses, although the "GP Legends" gang are having a grand old time > experimenting on all manner of obscure tracks.. > > ------- >

How on earth is this supposed to be "costing" Papy a single thin dime? Are they selling these tracks to GPL players? Well, yes, they are. So far I've bought NR1999, N3, TWO versions of CART to the damn right one and, of course, GPL itself. Seems to me that Papy's doing ok and that to the sales of GPL they ought to attribute to its profitability rating all the stuff that GPLers are buying to support it. Lord knows, Papy ain't.

But the question is: Do we care? :) Andre On Thu, 06 Apr 2000 14:07:55 GMT, [email hidden] (Remco Moedt) wrote: >Hmmm, I'm not sure, but it could be that using the converter is a >violation of the terms of agreement you agreed with when installing >the game..... > >Remco >

> Needless to say, this development is akin to tearing out the pages of abook > and re-arranging them and therefore calls into question whether or not > copyrights are actually infringed; this has to make the guys at Papyrus > nuts. My man J.J. says that it's costing Papyrus over $3m a year. How could this possibly be costing Papyrus $3m a year. That is ludicrous. You have to own their other products (Nascar 3, Nascar Legends, Indycar Racing II) to even run the track converter. If anything, Dave Noonan's converters bring more revenue to Papyrus. I have friends that race GPL who bought Nascar Legends just to run Riverside in GPL, and bought Nascar 3 just for Indianapolis(this was before they were released together in the Nascar Acceleration pack - Doh!!). These people would have never even purchased those games because they have no interest in stock cars, but because of Dave Noonans converter they did. There is no way that Noonan's converter could be costing Papyrus money. These converters allow these games to have a much longer shelf-life, thus more chance of being purchased. Just look at all the posts recently of people trying to buy the 5 year old Indycar II by Papyrus because of the converter. Dave, thanks for the all great converters! - I have glady paid for them all. And as for Papyrus, I have purchased Indycar 1, Indycar 1 Track Pack, Indycar Indianapolis, Nascar 1, Nascar 1 Track Pack, Indycar II, Indycar II Windows Version(because it had the much anticipated patch for the superior DOS version several weeks before it was available on the internet), Indycar II Rendition (came with my Rendition card), CART Racing(contained DOS, Windows, and Rendition versions with awesome Steve Smith strategy guide), Nascar 2, Nascar 2 Busch Expansion pack, Nascar 1999, Grand Prix Legends, Nascar 3, and Nascar Legends. I think the only product I have not purchased from them was the Nascar @ 50 package. Now, after I spent $49.99 a piece for Nascar 3 and Nascar Legends, I will have to wait for Craftsman Trucks to be availble as a single package, or pay another $49.99 to get all three!@#%! I wonder how many GPL enthusiasts who had not already purchased Legends or N3, will now buy the Nascar Acceleration pack for use with Dave Noonan's converter? From my perspective, Dave Noonan has helped Papyrus sell more product. Its all the 3rd party developers like Dave Noonan, The Pits, The Sim Project, TPTCC, IWCCCARS, Simulator Cyberworld, etc. that keep these games fresh far beyond their normal shelf life. If you pay Dave Noonan for a converter that uses track information from software that you have already purchased from Papyrus, I just don't see that as money being taken away from them. Its not like they are producing any extras for GPL! Sorry to beat a dead horse, but this kind of stuff is just frustrating. Don Chapman [email hidden]

Here, here...Don, this is exactly what I was thinking... If it is Papy doing the bitching that caused this stupid column to be written, then they can cram it! Roger "Don Chapman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:h52H4.33$yz4.656@client...

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> > Needless to say, this development is akin to tearing out the pages of a > book > > and re-arranging them and therefore calls into question whether or not > > copyrights are actually infringed; this has to make the guys at Papyrus > > nuts. My man J.J. says that it's costing Papyrus over $3m a year. > > How could this possibly be costing Papyrus $3m a year. That is ludicrous. > You have to own their other products (Nascar 3, Nascar Legends, Indycar > Racing II) to even run the track converter. If anything, Dave Noonan's > converters bring more revenue to Papyrus. I have friends that race GPL who > bought Nascar Legends just to run Riverside in GPL, and bought Nascar 3

just > for Indianapolis(this was before they were released together in the Nascar > Acceleration pack - Doh!!). These people would have never even purchased > those games because they have no interest in stock cars, but because ofDave > Noonans converter they did. There is no way that Noonan's converter couldbe > costing Papyrus money. These converters allow these games to have a much > longer shelf-life, thus more chance of being purchased. Just look at allthe > posts recently of people trying to buy the 5 year old Indycar II byPapyrus > because of the converter. > > Dave, thanks for the all great converters! - I have glady paid for themall. > > And as for Papyrus, I have purchased Indycar 1, Indycar 1 Track Pack, > Indycar Indianapolis, Nascar 1, Nascar 1 Track Pack, Indycar II, IndycarII > Windows Version(because it had the much anticipated patch for the superior > DOS version several weeks before it was available on the internet),Indycar > II Rendition (came with my Rendition card), CART Racing(contained DOS, > Windows, and Rendition versions with awesome Steve Smith strategy guide), > Nascar 2, Nascar 2 Busch Expansion pack, Nascar 1999, Grand Prix Legends, > Nascar 3, and Nascar Legends. > > I think the only product I have not purchased from them was the Nascar @50 > package. Now, after I spent $49.99 a piece for Nascar 3 and NascarLegends, > I will have to wait for Craftsman Trucks to be availble as a singlepackage,

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> or pay another $49.99 to get all three!@#%! > > I wonder how many GPL enthusiasts who had not already purchased Legends or > N3, will now buy the Nascar Acceleration pack for use with Dave Noonan's > converter? From my perspective, Dave Noonan has helped Papyrus sell more > product. Its all the 3rd party developers like Dave Noonan, The Pits, The > Sim Project, TPTCC, IWCCCARS, Simulator Cyberworld, etc. that keep these > games fresh far beyond their normal shelf life. If you pay Dave Noonan for

a > converter that uses track information from software that you have already > purchased from Papyrus, I just don't see that as money being taken awayfrom

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> them. Its not like they are producing any extras for GPL! Sorry to beat a > dead horse, but this kind of stuff is just frustrating. > > Don Chapman > [email hidden] > >

"Remco Moedt" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> [email hidden] (John Simmons) wrote: > > >This is a crock of shit. > > Hmmm, I'm not sure, but it could be that using the converter is a > violation of the terms of agreement you agreed with when installing > the game..... > > Remco

The terms of the EULA are subsidiary to law, which specifically allow "fair use" of legally obtained code. Since the converter only allows, in fact requires, legally licensed code it falls under fair use. As someone else has pointed out, legally this is nothing more than tearing the pages out of books, rearanging them, and scribbling in the margins. Think about this for a minute, If Papy were actually losing 3 mill a year on this, and since it would only cost about 5K or 10k, TOPS, to stop him, don't you think they would if they felt they had a legal leg to stand on? Software companies are the most litgous group in the history business. They arn't losing money, they're making extra money, from the legal activities of someone they don't even have to pay for doing it. Sounds like a pretty good deal to me. Companies that understand this are making more money than Papy could ever dream of. Look at id. They not only don't stop people from dicking with the software, they HELP them, going so far as to *release the source code* of the previous version when a new version comes out. They are up to Q3 * and still selling more copies of Doom than Papy sells total!* Will we ever see an official car or track editor from Papy? Nope. GPL is deadware. Will we ever see source code from this deadware? Nope. Wouldn't cost Papy a dime. It would stretch more money from a dead horse. It would enhance their reputation immesurably. It would make people more likely to buy ANY future editions of any sim they put out. If right now someone would put on the market an open source track and car editor with a decent plain text editable physics and AI engine, with NO CARS or TRACKS, they would own the market inside of 6 months. If Papy did it THEY would own the market. I'd pay $200 just for this package alone. Hey, I'm a physicist with a specific background in automotive engineering, chassis dynamics, and programing. Guess I'll just have to spend the next 5 years of my life writing it.

David Karr wrote: > > I found this news at the Apex forum (http://gpl.gamestats.com/ ), posted by > one Johnny Lugnuts: > > from Yates' column at www.speedvision.comDavid Karr wrote: > > I found this news at the Apex forum (http://gpl.gamestats.com/ ), posted by > one Johnny Lugnuts: Thx for posting that DK, the way I see this, it's free advertising for "The Converter" (TM ? :-), too bad he didn't provide a link to it so Dave can sell a few more copies :-)) And as for Papy going after Dave for this one, I don't think so, both he and the other "conversion guru's" working out of "The Pits" have a dialogue with the people over there about all the stuff that they release, sometimes they goof up a bit, like posting the converted "GPL Glen" for the TPTCC series (which was taken from the demo and I think that was nitpicking, but they were in their rights to do so) which was promptly removed, and as far as I know, as long as they don't distribute any original Papy code, Papy won't butt into it too much, and I'm sure SimCyberworld and other sites have the same "deal" with Papy That's not to say that Papy is happy about it, I have no idea really, or they could be ecstatic about "The Converter" and have bought several copies of it (this I'd like to know :-), but they would shoot themselves in the foot by going after people like this, better concentrating on the "real" hackers that distribute complete tracks and such, "live and let live" I guess ? Yes, I have issues when it comes to Papy as I happen to think that they could have done so much more with their sims by including the "hacker community" a bit more, endorsed these add on's a bit, or at least the sites that distribute them if that's easier license wise, and I'm now back into my dream about "The Pits" and "SimCyberworld" and other sites being to Papy what "Alpina" is to BMW and "AMG" is to Mercedes, but do I think their offices are populated with complete idiots ? .....uh, no :-) Beers and cheers (uncle) Goy "Team Mirage" http://www.teammirage.com/ "The Pits" http://www.theuspits.com/ * Spam is for losers who can't get business any other way * "Spamkiller" http://www.spamkiller.com

Pops wrote: > > This I was not aware of. How do I convert tracks FROM GPL TO Nascar 3 with > David's great converter? You don't :-) > Should that have been "which of course WOULD be possible if Dave had > designed a converter that would do that"? Correct Beers and cheers (uncle) Goy "Team Mirage" http://www.teammirage.com/ "The Pits" http://www.theuspits.com/ * Spam is for losers who can't get business any other way * "Spamkiller" http://www.spamkiller.com

A summary of the above. YOU Can't convert the tracks from gpl to N3, yet...remember when N2 first came out, everyone in the know said backconverting the newer N2 format would never be possible. Yet Noonan did it... Now he made an ICR2>N2 convertor first, then he provided free of charge(at least to us TPTCCers) a 2nd convertor that allows using the N2/99 tracks with ICR2/Cart. Do I expect that at some later date he will duplicate his past efforts and make gpl tracks available to N3 users...yes...or possibly to users of N4. I have heard the difficulties with converting the gpl tracks is the altitude differences, some of the flatter tracks can probably be done now...witness the Glen. But tracks like Spa or the Ring..."could" be impossible witht he old N2/N99/N3 track layout. What will N4 bring us in track improvements?? perhaps Eric Busch might know, but we don't. As far as Papyrus spending 3(pinky finger by mouth) MILLion dollars to police the sim community...probably a far fetched number, but, they have to have some legal team on board to craft those nasty EULA's and they have to have some legal begals to go after the sites that blatantly post full tracks, so who knows...last time I talked to a lawyer, it cost me a whole lot of change. NOW! THE REAL ISSUE! You numbskulls are missing the point! Don't FLAME the guy. Thank him for spreading the word! Sure he could have done a little research and written a better article factually, be we need to be thanking ANYONE who spreads the news about Sim Racing in general. If sales of big products keep falling flat, pretty soon the only racing we will get will be 'Donkey Kong Racing #12', or 'Laura Croft in the Driver's Seat.' So I'm here to call off the dogs....don't spam the guy with mindless minutue(sp?). Let him know we APPRECIATE it when anything about our cult is mentioned. Let him know that next to Quake Arena, the online code for gpl and N3 could be some of the finest multiplayer programming in existance. Let him know we have read his work and would appreciate more colums that tell the General John Q Public users of the world that sim racing is cool, and getting cooler. Then if you must, offer to be his technical advisor and offer to dig up the necessary info, so that is future work will be more accurate. Lastly(is that a word?) Rememeber, he wasn't writing this article to us the enlightened diciples of Sim Racing, but the common folk who most likely don't even know that Mario Andretti hasn't raced in years. dave henrie Goy Larsen wrote:

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> > Pops wrote: > > > > This I was not aware of. How do I convert tracks FROM GPL TO Nascar 3 with > > David's great converter? > > You don't :-) > > > Should that have been "which of course WOULD be possible if Dave had > > designed a converter that would do that"? > > Correct > > Beers and cheers > (uncle) Goy > > "Team Mirage" http://www.teammirage.com/ > "The Pits" http://www.theuspits.com/ > > * Spam is for losers who can't get business any other way * > "Spamkiller" http://www.spamkiller.com

"John Simmons" wrote > > This is a crock of shit. > Now there is a writing style I recognise :) Now c'mon John, say what you mean, don't beat around the bush... Cheers! Tony

In article <Aa6H4.10502$[email hidden]>, [email hidden] says...

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> >"John Simmons" wrote >> >> This is a crock of shit. >> > >Now there is a writing style I recognise :) > >Now c'mon John, say what you mean, don't beat around the bush... >

I simply call 'em as I see 'em, and I try to avoid leaving room for free- thinking re-interpretation of what I originally attempted to convey. :-) -- ========================================================= Redneck Techno-Biker (Zerex12) http://www.members.home.net/jms1/index.html Barbarian Diecast Collector (420+ cars and counting) http://members.home.net/jsimm/diecast_index.html DeMONS Scheduler for N3 and NL http://www.paddedwall.org/demons If you want to send me email, go to the first URL shown above & click "Send Me Mail" in the contents frame. =========================================================

"David Karr" <[email hidden]> wrote > My underground source, J.J. Hunsecker II, <snipped pure bollocks> Could anybody please tell Mr. Yates that his underground source is saying rubbish lies? 3million$ per year? that made my day LMAO!!!!!! -- -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> -- May the Downforce be with you... -- http://www.WeRace.net -- People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world.

On Thu, 6 Apr 2000 12:57:32 -0400, "Colin" <colin AT yourmiata DOT COM> wrote: >Anyone got Yates' email address??? >Let the flames commence... >...Colin GPLers already come of as a bunch of foam-flecked fanatics. Let's try and not give someone with considerable media access the impression we're psycho's, too. This is the same thing that the leaders of the Linux movement have been trying to pound into their followers; try to seem reasonable when you rebut someones statements. Coming off like a bunch of whackos tends to diminish our message quite a bit. Regards, Brett C. Cammack That's Racing! Motorsports Pompano Beach, FL

I'm not sure I understand how they came up with it was costing Papy 3mil a year. As an outsider looking in, as I don't have the converter, seems to me if anything it would promote sales of non-gpl products by Papy to folks who otherwise might not buy them. -- Don Burnette Dburn in N3 and Legends "David Karr" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:8ci04c$39c$[email hidden]... > I found this news at the Apex forum (http://gpl.gamestats.com/ ), posted by > one Johnny Lugnuts: > > > from Yates' column at www.speedvision.com > --------- > > Good news for racing simulation geeks; bad news for Papyrus, the big player > in that popular industry. My underground source, J.J. Hunsecker II, tells me > that a Brit computer genius named Dave Noonan has developed a program > whereby you can run your 1967 "Grand Prix Legends" Formula 1 cars on any one > of almost 30 road courses and speedways. Want to try your V12 AAR Eagle on > the Bristol half-mile? How about a Lotus 49 at Elkhart Lake, or a BRM at > Suzuka, or maybe Imola? It's all possible, thanks to ol' Dave and his > skunkworks, surely located in a scuzzy basement somewhere in the Midlands. > Needless to say, this development is akin to tearing out the pages of a book > and re-arranging them and therefore calls into question whether or not > copyrights are actually infringed; this has to make the guys at Papyrus > nuts. My man J.J. says that it's costing Papyrus over $3m a year. Yet to be > tried are Winston Cup stockers from the "NASCAR Racing" series on great road > courses like Spa and the Nurburgring, which is of course possible with > Noonan's program. Apparently the stock-car gamers don't care about road > courses, although the "GP Legends" gang are having a grand old time > experimenting on all manner of obscure tracks.. > > ------- > > --DK > > > >

And now I just looked at the column. There's a picture of him leaning on an old racer. That's the same Brock Yates we all know and love. And the bit on GPL is written in his usual style. Like I said, I think it will do more good than harm. As long as Noonan can live with the public expose of his scuzzy basement, then I think there is no harm done. Let's hope the zealots here don't go overboard on the factual details. Stephen Bruce Kennewell <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > Is this the same Brock Yates of Road & Track (or was it Car & Driver)fame?

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> The same bloke who wrote the supposedly definitive biography on Enzo > Ferrari? Can't be HIM, surely? > > -- > Regards, > Bruce Kennewell, > Canberra, Australia. > --------------------------- > > Jan Verschueren <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:%N9H4.34426$[email hidden]... > > Too damn right. One of the very few occasion I want to physically harm > > someone because of their online behavior. This Yates guy should be hung, > > quartered and drawn!! > > > > Jan. > > =--- > > ymenard <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:YR7H4.543$[email hidden]... > > <snip> > > > Could anybody please tell Mr. Yates that his underground source is > saying > > > rubbish lies? 3million$ per year? that made my day LMAO!!!!!! > > > > > >

I should mention I am just assuming it is the same Brock Yates. Perhaps I should go look into it a bit more... :-) Stephen Bruce Kennewell <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > Well I'll be buggered...it IS him!! > Jeeeez....this guys a GURU! > Brock is *definitely* stirring and he wouldn't be doing it out of spite, > either. Just to get a reaction :-) Which, if he reads this NG, he'sgetting

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> in spades!! HAAAAA! > > -- > Regards, > Bruce Kennewell, > Canberra, Australia. > --------------------------- > > Stephen Ferguson <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:8ck1gi$6k3og$[email hidden]... > > > > Jan Verschueren <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:%N9H4.34426$[email hidden]... > > > Too damn right. One of the very few occasion I want to physically harm > > > someone because of their online behavior. This Yates guy should be

hung,

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> > > quartered and drawn!! > > > > > > > "This Yates guy" may be a bit abrasive at times, but he's been kicking > > around North American automobile journalism since the days of Bruce > > Kennewell's youth (grin). He's often entertaining to read, and has a > > definite passion for all things automotive, and especially for racing. > The > > purer the racing, the better. He was one of the original "Cannonball

Run" > > guys who went ripping across America coast-to-coast on a whim in aFerrari > > Daytona. As has been said before, I see the blurb as something in the > > category of "any publicity is good publicity". Yates seems to trulylike > > the concept of the converter. It could have been more factuallycorrect, > > but I think the end result will be that more people will look for GPL,the

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> > converter and old Papy catalog titles. > > > > Stephen > > > > > > > >

and whats more we are flaming the guy who taught Cannonballers how to cook a 3 course meal on your engine block and exhaust manifold while driving cross country >>>>>>How do you get Bristol to work with the converter? >>>>>>No, no, no, the question is, where do you put the mashed potatoes? Rik Anthrax - - it's a GPL kinda day :)

"Kevin Gavitt" <[email hidden]> wrote:

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> >"Remco Moedt" <[email hidden]> wrote in message >news:[email hidden]... >> [email hidden] (John Simmons) wrote: >> >> >This is a crock of shit. >> >> Hmmm, I'm not sure, but it could be that using the converter is a >> violation of the terms of agreement you agreed with when installing >> the game..... >> > >The terms of the EULA are subsidiary to law, which specifically allow "fair >use" of legally obtained code. Since the converter only allows, in fact >requires, legally licensed code it falls under fair use. > >As someone else has pointed out, legally this is nothing more than tearing >the pages out of books, rearanging them, and scribbling in the margins.

I'm not sure fair use is relevant here. A case could be made that the converter is a derivative work. Also, Dave has clearly done some reverse engineering, which the license agreement forbids. I wouldn't bet my house on a business that depends on the grace of a for-profit company. The point is moot. It would be PR suicide for Sierra/Papyrus to go after Dave. If they cared, they would have said so by now. (You can't so much as say "Florida" on Sierra's NASCAR forum these days.) It's not his first converter--and, hopefully, not his last. I'm all for converters (well, I'd rather they weren't necessary), and Sierra/Papyrus should like them, too. Alison Hine has a whole section on her web site about how to buy the Rendition-ready of CART Racing [1]. Papyrus can tell distributors and retailers that its games still sell four years later! --Jon _____ 1. <http://simracing.com/alison/gpl/cart/cart.htm>.

Jan Verschueren <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:%N9H4.34426$[email hidden]... > Too damn right. One of the very few occasion I want to physically harm > someone because of their online behavior. This Yates guy should be hung, > quartered and drawn!! > "This Yates guy" may be a bit abrasive at times, but he's been kicking around North American automobile journalism since the days of Bruce Kennewell's youth (grin). He's often entertaining to read, and has a definite passion for all things automotive, and especially for racing. The purer the racing, the better. He was one of the original "Cannonball Run" guys who went ripping across America coast-to-coast on a whim in a Ferrari Daytona. As has been said before, I see the blurb as something in the category of "any publicity is good publicity". Yates seems to truly like the concept of the converter. It could have been more factually correct, but I think the end result will be that more people will look for GPL, the converter and old Papy catalog titles. Stephen

Is this the same Brock Yates of Road & Track (or was it Car & Driver) fame? The same bloke who wrote the supposedly definitive biography on Enzo Ferrari? Can't be HIM, surely? -- Regards, Bruce Kennewell, Canberra, Australia. --------------------------- Jan Verschueren <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:%N9H4.34426$[email hidden]... > Too damn right. One of the very few occasion I want to physically harm > someone because of their online behavior. This Yates guy should be hung, > quartered and drawn!! > > Jan. > =--- > ymenard <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:YR7H4.543$[email hidden]... > <snip> > > Could anybody please tell Mr. Yates that his underground source is saying > > rubbish lies? 3million$ per year? that made my day LMAO!!!!!! > >

If it wasn't for the rogue programmers out here in the wild, many of these sims wouldn't live longer than 3-6 months before being retired to a box in the garage. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> THATS WHAT THEY WANT!!! Rik Anthrax - - it's a GPL kinda day :)

Too damn right. One of the very few occasion I want to physically harm someone because of their online behavior. This Yates guy should be hung, quartered and drawn!! Jan. =--- ymenard <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:YR7H4.543$[email hidden]... <snip> > Could anybody please tell Mr. Yates that his underground source is saying > rubbish lies? 3million$ per year? that made my day LMAO!!!!!!

"This Yates guy" may be a bit abrasive at times, but he's been kicking around North American automobile journalism since the days of Bruce Kennewell's youth (grin). He's often entertaining to read, and has a definite passion for all things automotive, and especially for racing. The purer the racing, the better. He was one of the original "Cannonball Run" guys who went ripping across America coast-to-coast on a whim in a Ferrari Daytona. As has been said before, I see the blurb as something in the category of "any publicity is good publicity". Yates seems to truly like the concept of the converter. It could have been more factually correct, but I think the end result will be that more people will look for GPL, the converter and old Papy catalog titles. Stephen

Not if it takes them 2 years to issue an upgrade. The WHOLE reason I'm considering buying GPL (yes, I'm still a holdout!) is to get the tracks to N3. If the converter works for this, I'm probably going to have to give it a shot. By EXTENDING a game and making it more useful over a longer period, once word gets out, sales would HAVE to increase as a wider customer base gets drawn in... Gunner

How do you get Bristol to work with the converter? David Karr <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:8ci04c$39c$[email hidden]... > I found this news at the Apex forum (http://gpl.gamestats.com/ ), postedby

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> one Johnny Lugnuts: > > > from Yates' column at www.speedvision.com > --------- > > Good news for racing simulation geeks; bad news for Papyrus, the big

player > in that popular industry. My underground source, J.J. Hunsecker II, tellsme > that a Brit computer genius named Dave Noonan has developed a program > whereby you can run your 1967 "Grand Prix Legends" Formula 1 cars on anyone > of almost 30 road courses and speedways. Want to try your V12 AAR Eagle on > the Bristol half-mile? How about a Lotus 49 at Elkhart Lake, or a BRM at > Suzuka, or maybe Imola? It's all possible, thanks to ol' Dave and his > skunkworks, surely located in a scuzzy basement somewhere in the Midlands. > Needless to say, this development is akin to tearing out the pages of abook > and re-arranging them and therefore calls into question whether or not > copyrights are actually infringed; this has to make the guys at Papyrus > nuts. My man J.J. says that it's costing Papyrus over $3m a year. Yet tobe > tried are Winston Cup stockers from the "NASCAR Racing" series on greatroad

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> courses like Spa and the Nurburgring, which is of course possible with > Noonan's program. Apparently the stock-car gamers don't care about road > courses, although the "GP Legends" gang are having a grand old time > experimenting on all manner of obscure tracks.. > > ------- > > --DK > > > >

Roger, the term "here, here", is...........ahhh, forget it. -- Regards, Bruce Kennewell, Canberra, Australia. --------------------------- Roger Walker <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:qH2H4.328$[email hidden]... > Here, here...Don, this is exactly what I was thinking... > If it is Papy doing the bitching that caused this stupid column to be > written, then they can cram it! > > Roger > > "Don Chapman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:h52H4.33$yz4.656@client... > > > Needless to say, this development is akin to tearing out the pages of a > > book > > > and re-arranging them and therefore calls into question whether or not > > > copyrights are actually infringed; this has to make the guys at Papyrus > > > nuts. My man J.J. says that it's costing Papyrus over $3m a year. > > > > How could this possibly be costing Papyrus $3m a year. That is ludicrous. > > You have to own their other products (Nascar 3, Nascar Legends, Indycar > > Racing II) to even run the track converter. If anything, Dave Noonan's > > converters bring more revenue to Papyrus. I have friends that race GPL who > > bought Nascar Legends just to run Riverside in GPL, and bought Nascar 3 > just > > for Indianapolis(this was before they were released together in the Nascar > > Acceleration pack - Doh!!). These people would have never even purchased > > those games because they have no interest in stock cars, but because of > Dave > > Noonans converter they did. There is no way that Noonan's converter could > be > > costing Papyrus money. These converters allow these games to have a much > > longer shelf-life, thus more chance of being purchased. Just look at all > the > > posts recently of people trying to buy the 5 year old Indycar II by > Papyrus > > because of the converter. > > > > Dave, thanks for the all great converters! - I have glady paid for them > all. > > > > And as for Papyrus, I have purchased Indycar 1, Indycar 1 Track Pack, > > Indycar Indianapolis, Nascar 1, Nascar 1 Track Pack, Indycar II, Indycar > II > > Windows Version(because it had the much anticipated patch for the superior > > DOS version several weeks before it was available on the internet), > Indycar > > II Rendition (came with my Rendition card), CART Racing(contained DOS, > > Windows, and Rendition versions with awesome Steve Smith strategy guide), > > Nascar 2, Nascar 2 Busch Expansion pack, Nascar 1999, Grand Prix Legends, > > Nascar 3, and Nascar Legends. > > > > I think the only product I have not purchased from them was the Nascar @ > 50 > > package. Now, after I spent $49.99 a piece for Nascar 3 and Nascar > Legends, > > I will have to wait for Craftsman Trucks to be availble as a single > package, > > or pay another $49.99 to get all three!@#%! > > > > I wonder how many GPL enthusiasts who had not already purchased Legends or > > N3, will now buy the Nascar Acceleration pack for use with Dave Noonan's > > converter? From my perspective, Dave Noonan has helped Papyrus sell more > > product. Its all the 3rd party developers like Dave Noonan, The Pits, The > > Sim Project, TPTCC, IWCCCARS, Simulator Cyberworld, etc. that keep these > > games fresh far beyond their normal shelf life. If you pay Dave Noonan for > a > > converter that uses track information from software that you have already > > purchased from Papyrus, I just don't see that as money being taken away > from > > them. Its not like they are producing any extras for GPL! Sorry to beat a > > dead horse, but this kind of stuff is just frustrating. > > > > Don Chapman > > [email hidden] > > > > > >

Yes it is Brock, and whats more we are flaming the guy who taught Cannonballers how to cook a 3 course meal on your engine block and exhaust manifold while driving cross country...shame on us... dave :) henrie Bruce Kennewell wrote:

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> > Is this the same Brock Yates of Road & Track (or was it Car & Driver) fame? > The same bloke who wrote the supposedly definitive biography on Enzo > Ferrari? Can't be HIM, surely? > > -- > Regards, > Bruce Kennewell, > Canberra, Australia. > --------------------------- > > Jan Verschueren <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:%N9H4.34426$[email hidden]... > > Too damn right. One of the very few occasion I want to physically harm > > someone because of their online behavior. This Yates guy should be hung, > > quartered and drawn!! > > > > Jan. > > =--- > > ymenard <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:YR7H4.543$[email hidden]... > > <snip> > > > Could anybody please tell Mr. Yates that his underground source is > saying > > > rubbish lies? 3million$ per year? that made my day LMAO!!!!!! > > > >

Use the demo converter at www.theuspits.com, it contains other tracks than those in the full version, including Bristol. Andre On Fri, 07 Apr 2000 12:05:29 GMT, "Todd Sorensen" <[email hidden]> wrote:

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>How do you get Bristol to work with the converter? > > >David Karr <[email hidden]> wrote in message >news:8ci04c$39c$[email hidden]... >> I found this news at the Apex forum (http://gpl.gamestats.com/ ), posted >by >> one Johnny Lugnuts: >> >> >> from Yates' column at www.speedvision.com >> --------- >> >> Good news for racing simulation geeks; bad news for Papyrus, the big >player >> in that popular industry. My underground source, J.J. Hunsecker II, tells >me >> that a Brit computer genius named Dave Noonan has developed a program >> whereby you can run your 1967 "Grand Prix Legends" Formula 1 cars on any >one >> of almost 30 road courses and speedways. Want to try your V12 AAR Eagle on >> the Bristol half-mile? How about a Lotus 49 at Elkhart Lake, or a BRM at >> Suzuka, or maybe Imola? It's all possible, thanks to ol' Dave and his >> skunkworks, surely located in a scuzzy basement somewhere in the Midlands. >> Needless to say, this development is akin to tearing out the pages of a >book >> and re-arranging them and therefore calls into question whether or not >> copyrights are actually infringed; this has to make the guys at Papyrus >> nuts. My man J.J. says that it's costing Papyrus over $3m a year. Yet to >be >> tried are Winston Cup stockers from the "NASCAR Racing" series on great >road >> courses like Spa and the Nurburgring, which is of course possible with >> Noonan's program. Apparently the stock-car gamers don't care about road >> courses, although the "GP Legends" gang are having a grand old time >> experimenting on all manner of obscure tracks.. >> >> ------- >> >> --DK >> >> >> >> > >

Stephen Ferguson wrote:

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> > And now I just looked at the column. There's a picture of him leaning on an > old racer. That's the same Brock Yates we all know and love. And the bit > on GPL is written in his usual style. Like I said, I think it will do more > good than harm. As long as Noonan can live with the public expose of his > scuzzy basement, then I think there is no harm done. Let's hope the zealots > here don't go overboard on the factual details.

Like I said, too bad he didn't provide a link to a few GPL sites while he was at it, especially "The Converter" (TM) link of course, but anything to recruit a few new members to "The GPL Clan" (TM David Fisher), or the sim racing community in general would have been nice.... Beers and cheers (uncle) Goy "Team Mirage" http://www.teammirage.com/ "The Pits" http://www.theuspits.com/ * Spam is for losers who can't get business any other way * "Spamkiller" http://www.spamkiller.com

Dave Henrie wrote: > Had a lot on your mind today didn't you Dave, you really ought to take the Dodge for a spin and get out some built up frustrations :-))) ...oh, and well said, I didn't see it as a negative post towards David Noonan at all Beers and cheers (uncle) Goy "Team Mirage" http://www.teammirage.com/ "The Pits" http://www.theuspits.com/ * Spam is for losers who can't get business any other way * "Spamkiller" http://www.spamkiller.com

Rikanthrax wrote in message <[email hidden]>...

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>If it wasn't for the rogue programmers out here in the wild, many of >these sims wouldn't live longer than 3-6 months before being retired to a >box in the garage. > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >THATS WHAT THEY WANT!!! >

Not if it takes them 2 years to issue an upgrade. The WHOLE reason I'm considering buying GPL (yes, I'm still a holdout!) is to get the tracks to N3. If the converter works for this, I'm probably going to have to give it a shot. By EXTENDING a game and making it more useful over a longer period, once word gets out, sales would HAVE to increase as a wider customer base gets drawn in... Gunner

"Stephen Ferguson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:8ck1gi$6k3og$[email hidden]...

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> > Jan Verschueren <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:%N9H4.34426$[email hidden]... > > Too damn right. One of the very few occasion I want to physically harm > > someone because of their online behavior. This Yates guy should be hung, > > quartered and drawn!! > > > > "This Yates guy" may be a bit abrasive at times, but he's been kicking > around North American automobile journalism since the days of Bruce > Kennewell's youth (grin). He's often entertaining to read, and has a > definite passion for all things automotive, and especially for racing.

The

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> purer the racing, the better. He was one of the original "Cannonball Run" > guys who went ripping across America coast-to-coast on a whim in a Ferrari > Daytona. As has been said before, I see the blurb as something in the > category of "any publicity is good publicity". Yates seems to truly like > the concept of the converter. It could have been more factually correct, > but I think the end result will be that more people will look for GPL, the > converter and old Papy catalog titles. > > Stephen >

He wasn't just "one of the original" Cannonball guys, he is THE Cannonball guys. He was the inventor, promoter, orginizer, etc. He is also the ultimate recored holder for the event with his codriver, some guy named Gurney. He wrote a book about it. Check out your local library. Hell of a read. Kevin F. Gavitt

Goy Larsen wrote: > > Dave Henrie wrote: > > > > Had a lot on your mind today didn't you Dave, you really ought to take > the Dodge for a spin and get out some built up frustrations :-))) ^^^^ have you been watching my replays???? dave ;) henrie

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> ...oh, and well said, I didn't see it as a negative post towards David > Noonan at all > > Beers and cheers > (uncle) Goy > > "Team Mirage" http://www.teammirage.com/ > "The Pits" http://www.theuspits.com/ > > * Spam is for losers who can't get business any other way * > "Spamkiller" http://www.spamkiller.com

Reverse engineering has been declared legal in the US by the courts, no matter what the EULA says. It also isn't a derivitive work, since it includes *no* code of Papy's. None. This is crucial. He converts already legally licensed code. You must BUY this code from Papy. His code contains NONE of Papy's code. As an analogy, he isn't selling you a different version of a book, he is selling you an entirely new work in parralel to an existing one. Like an annotation that is purchased seperately and contains no part of the original book. What's more, US law dosn't really apply since Mr. Noonan resides in and is a resident of the UK, where reverse engineering is also legal, and US law states that if the reverse engineering is done in a legal fashion at the origin it is legal to distribute in the US. The EULA means very little. Only the law applies.

Well I'll be buggered...it IS him!! Jeeeez....this guys a GURU! Brock is *definitely* stirring and he wouldn't be doing it out of spite, either. Just to get a reaction :-) Which, if he reads this NG, he's getting in spades!! HAAAAA! -- Regards, Bruce Kennewell, Canberra, Australia. --------------------------- Stephen Ferguson <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:8ck1gi$6k3og$[email hidden]... > > Jan Verschueren <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:%N9H4.34426$[email hidden]... > > Too damn right. One of the very few occasion I want to physically harm > > someone because of their online behavior. This Yates guy should be hung, > > quartered and drawn!! > > > > "This Yates guy" may be a bit abrasive at times, but he's been kicking > around North American automobile journalism since the days of Bruce > Kennewell's youth (grin). He's often entertaining to read, and has a > definite passion for all things automotive, and especially for racing. The > purer the racing, the better. He was one of the original "Cannonball Run" > guys who went ripping across America coast-to-coast on a whim in a Ferrari > Daytona. As has been said before, I see the blurb as something in the > category of "any publicity is good publicity". Yates seems to truly like > the concept of the converter. It could have been more factually correct, > but I think the end result will be that more people will look for GPL, the > converter and old Papy catalog titles. > > Stephen > > >

"snakehands" <[email hidden]> wrote:

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> >Don Hancock ("Gunner") wrote in message ... > >> The WHOLE reason I'm >>considering buying GPL (yes, I'm still a holdout!) is to get the tracks to >>N3. If the converter works for this, I'm probably going to have to give it >>a shot. > > >Wont work mate, converts tracks to GPL, not from GPL to the likes of N3.

There is, however, a Watkins Glen converter [1]. --Jon _____ 1. <http://www.theuspits.com/fbody/nascar/files/gpl2n2glen.zip>.

Don Hancock ("Gunner") wrote in message ... > The WHOLE reason I'm >considering buying GPL (yes, I'm still a holdout!) is to get the tracks to >N3. If the converter works for this, I'm probably going to have to give it >a shot. Wont work mate, converts tracks to GPL, not from GPL to the likes of N3. Cheers Gerry

On Fri 07 Apr 2000 11:28:35p, Kevin Gavitt wrote: >Reverse engineering has been declared legal in the US by the courts, >no matter what the EULA says.<snip> >What's more, US law dosn't really apply since Mr. Noonan resides in >and is a resident of the UK, where reverse engineering is also >legal, and US law states that if the reverse engineering is done in >a legal fashion at the origin it is legal to distribute in the US. > >The EULA means very little. Only the law applies. I suppose Sierra *could* put a clause in the EULA, to the effect that, if the anti-reverse-engineering part of it were to be found unlawful, then you couldn't use the game at all. But seeing as that would mean no-one could use it in the US or the UK, it would be pretty pointless. I'm also fairly sure that ther has been a UK ruling to the effect that you *can* modify proprietary code if the sole purpose is to make the program functional (ie, you can change the code for a bug-fix). -- David. "After all, a mere thousand yards - such a harmless little knoll, really." (Raymond Mays on Shelsley Walsh)

Your innards shall be removed and burned in front of you... Then you shall be quartered by four large horses... And the quarters shall be quartered again by four smaller horses... And those quarters shall be quartered again by four ponies... And those quarters shall be quartered by four frogs. LOL!!! -- Kirk Lane [email hidden] [email hidden] ICQ: 28171652 BRT #187 "Yeah you won't find me I'm going MIA Tonight I'm leaving Going MIA Getting lost in you again Is better than being known" -Foo Fighters, "MIA" Jan Verschueren <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:%N9H4.34426$[email hidden]... > Too damn right. One of the very few occasion I want to physically harm > someone because of their online behavior. This Yates guy should be hung, > quartered and drawn!! > > Jan. > =--- > ymenard <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:YR7H4.543$[email hidden]... > <snip> > > Could anybody please tell Mr. Yates that his underground source is saying > > rubbish lies? 3million$ per year? that made my day LMAO!!!!!! > >

Aah! That's great. I thought Yates had headed off to the Cannoball Run in the Sky some time ago.......nice to hear (read!) that he's still as much a stirrer now as he was in his heyday. Good stuff! Thanks, Stephen. -- Regards, Bruce Kennewell, Canberra, Australia. --------------------------- Stephen Ferguson <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:8ck9d2$6fb4q$[email hidden]... > And now I just looked at the column. There's a picture of him leaning on an > old racer. That's the same Brock Yates we all know and love. And the bit > on GPL is written in his usual style. Like I said, I think it will do more > good than harm. As long as Noonan can live with the public expose of his > scuzzy basement, then I think there is no harm done. Let's hope the zealots > here don't go overboard on the factual details. > > Stephen > > Bruce Kennewell <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > Is this the same Brock Yates of Road & Track (or was it Car & Driver) > fame? > > The same bloke who wrote the supposedly definitive biography on Enzo > > Ferrari? Can't be HIM, surely? > > > > -- > > Regards, > > Bruce Kennewell, > > Canberra, Australia. > > --------------------------- > > > > Jan Verschueren <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:%N9H4.34426$[email hidden]... > > > Too damn right. One of the very few occasion I want to physically harm > > > someone because of their online behavior. This Yates guy should be hung, > > > quartered and drawn!! > > > > > > Jan. > > > =--- > > > ymenard <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > news:YR7H4.543$[email hidden]... > > > <snip> > > > > Could anybody please tell Mr. Yates that his underground source is > > saying > > > > rubbish lies? 3million$ per year? that made my day LMAO!!!!!! > > > > > > > > > > > >

That's a sad situation. This guy gave true meaning to the words "Political Correctness? What the &^%$ is THAT?!" when it came to all things motoring. Instead of sending him a flaming arrow one should be buying him a beer....or several :-) -- Regards, Bruce Kennewell, Canberra, Australia. --------------------------- Dave Henrie <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > Yes it is Brock, and whats more we are flaming the guy who taught > Cannonballers how to cook a 3 course meal on your engine block and > exhaust manifold while driving cross country...shame on us... > dave :) henrie >

In article <8ci04c$39c$[email hidden]>, "David Karr" <[email hidden]> writes: >Needless to say, this development is akin to tearing out the pages of a book >and re-arranging them and therefore calls into question whether or not >copyrights are actually infringed; this has to make the guys at Papyrus >nuts. My man J.J. says that it's costing Papyrus over $3m a year. That's too bad that people think that way. I already *had* ICR2. While I probably would have bought N3 and NL anyway, I wanted to wait for a)the prices to drop, or b)the chance to buy it used. Because of Dave's converter, I bought the programs at nearly full price, sooner than planned. I'd say that Dave *made* Papy about $60. And, I'm probably not the only person who bought the programs for the same reason... Eldred -- Tiger Stadium R.I.P. 1912-1999 Own Grand Prix Legends? Goto http://gpl.gamestats.com/vroc Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.