Re: LWFF and customer support (very long)

I paid $89 for my LWFF and have had ot for more than a year. I doesnt owe me a thing. I have had great service from it, it has increased my enjoyment of many racing sims, and actually turned me on to FF . I know htere are better wheels out there, but show me one better for $89 tha t lasts for over 1 year of hard use (kids, dog chewing it, me hitting it - I suck at GPL, etc...) And I will give that wheel some thought AFTER the LWFF breaks down. ed "GTX_SlotCar" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:_ttJ4.1655$J81.1092 [email hidden]... > Maybe I've been dealing with Act Labs customer support too long to remember > what the rest of the real world of tech support is really like. The LWFF > wheel I have centers slightly to the right of top dead center. There are no > internal adjustments to fix this properly. There is a trimmer that adjusts > the spring forces slightly, but doing so centers the wheel, not the > calibration. In other words, I can make the wheel center perfectly but the > calibration shifts also so that when driving forces straighten the wheel, > you go in circles. Rotating the steering pot can take care of this, but then > you won't get full left (or right) steering. You get more like a full 90� > right (for example) but only 75� left. So, in a nutshell, the only cure is > to replace the pot. In fact I did try putting the brake pot in to check the > steering, and it did center perfectly. Of course, because the pots are > different values, the brake pot only gave about 50� of steering arc, so I > couldn't leave it this way. I just did it to make sure changing the pot > would cure the problem. > > So, a couple days ago I sent an email to Logitech's tech support to see ifI > could buy an new pot. Today I received a reply, and it was obvious that > nobody actually read my email. A few minutes ago I called Logitech tech > support. I was told that the products carry a 1 year warranty, but that I > voided mine by taking the wheel apart. Well, I already knew this. All I want > to do is *buy* a pot. But, they don't have any. What they are willing to do > is send me a replacement wheel for $100. I was also told that after the > warranty period is over, no parts except maybe power supplies can be > ordered. No gas or brake springs, no gas, brake or steering pots, nothing. > You're on your own. If a shifter spring breaks, too bad. If a brake spring > breaks, too bad, and so on. The overall impression I got was that people > will buy the products because of the Logitech name, and one unhappy customer > won't change that. They don't feel the need for carrying replacement parts > even for those items which are known to wear out. Here I sit, typing on my > Logi cordless keyboard with a Logi cordless mouse, looking over a my kids' > Logi Internet keyboard and Mouseman +, and wondering how I will ever get > service on these if I need it. I thought companies had to carry parts fora

Quoted text (9 lines)

> certain number of years by law in the US, but I may be wrong (just > applicances?). At any rate, I was completely floored by their attitude. > > Here are some of my impressions of the LWFF wheel so far: > Of the 3 wheels I'm testing LWFF, Ferrari and Force RS, the Logitech rates > highest in one category - I like the looks of the spoke design. Of course, > that's just personal taste. > > Customer support rating, 1 to 10: LWFF - zero. I mean, nobody even took t

he > time to read my email. Ferrari - 8.5 and rising. Force RS - 10. > > Drag to power ratio: By this I mean if you set the wheel all the way to the > left or right, how much default spring does it take to center it. The LWFF > is 30%, the Ferrari is 13% and the Force RS (lubricated) is 15%. Note > though, that the Force RS has a 270� steering arc so the wheel has to travel > a greater distance. The LWFF has only 180� and the Ferrari has 220�. So even > though the drag is just about the same on the LWFF and the Ferrari, the > motor on the LWFF is very weak in comparison. > > The total steering shaft play (slop), measured at the center of the wheel > hub on the LWFF is 1/2", four times that of the Ferrari which measures 1/8".

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> The Force RS measured 1/16". > > Indicated steering resolution (as measured by the Logi DX Tweaker and GPL > setup): LWFF - 655, Ferrari and Force RS - 1024. > > Pedals, rated in terms of GPL because with some games it just doesn't > matter. LWFF - basically junk. Ferrari - excellent. Force RS - excellent > after a 1 hour modification. > > Force Feedback: LWFF - useful, but weak. Ferrari - excellent. Force RS - > excellent. > > When you give an honest review, you're bound to anger some people. I don't > mean to offend anyone who is using a LWFF wheel. If you have one and you > love it, just think of how much you are going to enjoy your next wheel. > Because all pots will eventually need replacement, and because of the > general performance of the wheel, I could never recommend the LWFF to > anyone. If you were planning to buy one and don't have much money to spend

, > save yourself 20 bucks and get the Ferrari wheel. If you were planning to > buy one and get the CH pedals to go with it, why not go all out and get the > Force RS and RS Shifter package and have yourself a real good time. > > My little disclaimer. I just spent 2 hours in the chair getting a tough > tooth pulled and I'm very high on pain killer while writing this. So if it's > a little incoherent or my grammar and spelling is off, please don't jump on > me. > > I will probably finish testing the LWFF for my site. Afterwards I'll relyon > Guillemot or Act Labs for a replacement pot, depending on who's part matches > the best. I'll rebuild the pedals with Act Labs components and maybe add a > stick shifter. Then I won't feel bad when I sell it. > > If you have found a source for LWFF replacement pots, please let me know by

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> email and that information will also be passed along on my web site. > > Slot > > > > > > >

Without even sending in warranty card I had a problem with GPL & not the wheel. I and they were under the impression that the wheel was the culprit. They told me to send the wheel back & they would send out a replacement. I thought I would fool around with it a couple more day. UPS arrive with a new complete boxed wheel even before I sent in the first one. They are ok in my book. On Thu, 13 Apr 2000 20:17:58 -0400, "GTX_SlotCar" <[email hidden]> wrote:

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>Maybe I've been dealing with Act Labs customer support too long to remember >what the rest of the real world of tech support is really like. The LWFF >wheel I have centers slightly to the right of top dead center. There are no >internal adjustments to fix this properly. There is a trimmer that adjusts >the spring forces slightly, but doing so centers the wheel, not the >calibration. In other words, I can make the wheel center perfectly but the >calibration shifts also so that when driving forces straighten the wheel, >you go in circles. Rotating the steering pot can take care of this, but then >you won't get full left (or right) steering. You get more like a full 90� >right (for example) but only 75� left. So, in a nutshell, the only cure is >to replace the pot. In fact I did try putting the brake pot in to check the >steering, and it did center perfectly. Of course, because the pots are >different values, the brake pot only gave about 50� of steering arc, so I >couldn't leave it this way. I just did it to make sure changing the pot >would cure the problem. > >So, a couple days ago I sent an email to Logitech's tech support to see if I >could buy an new pot. Today I received a reply, and it was obvious that >nobody actually read my email. A few minutes ago I called Logitech tech >support. I was told that the products carry a 1 year warranty, but that I >voided mine by taking the wheel apart. Well, I already knew this. All I want >to do is *buy* a pot. But, they don't have any. What they are willing to do >is send me a replacement wheel for $100. I was also told that after the >warranty period is over, no parts except maybe power supplies can be >ordered. No gas or brake springs, no gas, brake or steering pots, nothing. >You're on your own. If a shifter spring breaks, too bad. If a brake spring >breaks, too bad, and so on. The overall impression I got was that people >will buy the products because of the Logitech name, and one unhappy customer >won't change that. They don't feel the need for carrying replacement parts >even for those items which are known to wear out. Here I sit, typing on my >Logi cordless keyboard with a Logi cordless mouse, looking over a my kids' >Logi Internet keyboard and Mouseman +, and wondering how I will ever get >service on these if I need it. I thought companies had to carry parts for a >certain number of years by law in the US, but I may be wrong (just >applicances?). At any rate, I was completely floored by their attitude. > >Here are some of my impressions of the LWFF wheel so far: >Of the 3 wheels I'm testing LWFF, Ferrari and Force RS, the Logitech rates >highest in one category - I like the looks of the spoke design. Of course, >that's just personal taste. > >Customer support rating, 1 to 10: LWFF - zero. I mean, nobody even took the >time to read my email. Ferrari - 8.5 and rising. Force RS - 10. > >Drag to power ratio: By this I mean if you set the wheel all the way to the >left or right, how much default spring does it take to center it. The LWFF >is 30%, the Ferrari is 13% and the Force RS (lubricated) is 15%. Note >though, that the Force RS has a 270� steering arc so the wheel has to travel >a greater distance. The LWFF has only 180� and the Ferrari has 220�. So even >though the drag is just about the same on the LWFF and the Ferrari, the >motor on the LWFF is very weak in comparison. > >The total steering shaft play (slop), measured at the center of the wheel >hub on the LWFF is 1/2", four times that of the Ferrari which measures 1/8". >The Force RS measured 1/16". > >Indicated steering resolution (as measured by the Logi DX Tweaker and GPL >setup): LWFF - 655, Ferrari and Force RS - 1024. > >Pedals, rated in terms of GPL because with some games it just doesn't >matter. LWFF - basically junk. Ferrari - excellent. Force RS - excellent >after a 1 hour modification. > >Force Feedback: LWFF - useful, but weak. Ferrari - excellent. Force RS - >excellent. > >When you give an honest review, you're bound to anger some people. I don't >mean to offend anyone who is using a LWFF wheel. If you have one and you >love it, just think of how much you are going to enjoy your next wheel. >Because all pots will eventually need replacement, and because of the >general performance of the wheel, I could never recommend the LWFF to >anyone. If you were planning to buy one and don't have much money to spend, >save yourself 20 bucks and get the Ferrari wheel. If you were planning to >buy one and get the CH pedals to go with it, why not go all out and get the >Force RS and RS Shifter package and have yourself a real good time. > >My little disclaimer. I just spent 2 hours in the chair getting a tough >tooth pulled and I'm very high on pain killer while writing this. So if it's >a little incoherent or my grammar and spelling is off, please don't jump on >me. > >I will probably finish testing the LWFF for my site. Afterwards I'll rely on >Guillemot or Act Labs for a replacement pot, depending on who's part matches >the best. I'll rebuild the pedals with Act Labs components and maybe add a >stick shifter. Then I won't feel bad when I sell it. > >If you have found a source for LWFF replacement pots, please let me know by >email and that information will also be passed along on my web site. > >Slot > > > > > >

Why dont you call again and dont mention you took it apart?

Hi Slot, welcome in the row of ignored customers. I can only advice anyone who is interested in the LWFF to mail to the support, whether they have improved their s..t performance before buying a wheel. To Logi-owners, especially those with bad experience, the advice: Let them know what you think and about your intention to buy another Logi-product yes or no. BTW No need to restrain yourself when commenting here. THEY DON'T READ THE NG's Hardwarewise: I wasn't brave enough yet to manipulate the trimmer inside the wheel. Thanks for trying it out. I had the same probs with slightly right centering and also found the pot to be the reason. Got it straight BTW (check out my webpage for further info). According to other reports the pots should be quite a standard (precision) type, although I could not find them in my country yet (this is because of the country, a bit underdeveloped in those things). At the end they should last quite long, I haven't heard any reports about spiking yet. See you Jens On Thu, 13 Apr 2000 20:17:58 -0400, "GTX_SlotCar" <[email hidden]> wrote: >Maybe I've been dealing with Act Labs customer support too long to remember >what the rest of the real world of tech support is really like. The LWFF<snip> --------------------------------------------- [email hidden] Remove "NOSPAM" before using my email-address JensSchumi homepage at http://members.xoom.com/JensSchu/ Racing simulation, esp. GPL Logitech Wingman FF optimization Classic cars, esp. Morris Minor Radio controlled airplanes

I might be wrong, but maybe you should try to reinstall DX7 ;-) Jens On Fri, 14 Apr 2000 00:35:39 GMT, Bengal <[email hidden]> wrote: >Yeh they must have a automated service tech.I sent them an email as i >cant seem to get my log yellow calibrated properly. needles jump on the >brake even when im not touching it. I explained in the email that i<snip> --------------------------------------------- [email hidden] Remove "NOSPAM" before using my email-address JensSchumi homepage at http://members.xoom.com/JensSchu/ Racing simulation, esp. GPL Logitech Wingman FF optimization Classic cars, esp. Morris Minor Radio controlled airplanes

Mike, sounds nice, but I expect more than sending out new wheels if they don't have an answer. Two reasons: Here from Malaysia sending a wheel to (where are they actually???) could cost more than buying a new one myself. After warranty has expired they won't send a new wheel for free. Since they don't supply any spareparts (users are to stupid to properly dissamble/assemble/repair such a high tech machine) you have to pay shipping twice after warranty Not very convincing Jens On Thu, 13 Apr 2000 22:15:01 -0700, Mike Dietz <[email hidden]> wrote:

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>Without even sending in warranty card I had a problem with GPL & not >the wheel. I and they were under the impression that the wheel was >the culprit. They told me to send the wheel back & they would send >out a replacement. I thought I would fool around with it a couple >more day. UPS arrive with a new complete boxed wheel even before I >sent in the first one. They are ok in my book. > >

--------------------------------------------- [email hidden] Remove "NOSPAM" before using my email-address JensSchumi homepage at http://members.xoom.com/JensSchu/ Racing simulation, esp. GPL Logitech Wingman FF optimization Classic cars, esp. Morris Minor Radio controlled airplanes

Maybe I've been dealing with Act Labs customer support too long to remember what the rest of the real world of tech support is really like. The LWFF wheel I have centers slightly to the right of top dead center. There are no internal adjustments to fix this properly. There is a trimmer that adjusts the spring forces slightly, but doing so centers the wheel, not the calibration. In other words, I can make the wheel center perfectly but the calibration shifts also so that when driving forces straighten the wheel, you go in circles. Rotating the steering pot can take care of this, but then you won't get full left (or right) steering. You get more like a full 90� right (for example) but only 75� left. So, in a nutshell, the only cure is to replace the pot. In fact I did try putting the brake pot in to check the steering, and it did center perfectly. Of course, because the pots are different values, the brake pot only gave about 50� of steering arc, so I couldn't leave it this way. I just did it to make sure changing the pot would cure the problem. So, a couple days ago I sent an email to Logitech's tech support to see if I could buy an new pot. Today I received a reply, and it was obvious that nobody actually read my email. A few minutes ago I called Logitech tech support. I was told that the products carry a 1 year warranty, but that I voided mine by taking the wheel apart. Well, I already knew this. All I want to do is *buy* a pot. But, they don't have any. What they are willing to do is send me a replacement wheel for $100. I was also told that after the warranty period is over, no parts except maybe power supplies can be ordered. No gas or brake springs, no gas, brake or steering pots, nothing. You're on your own. If a shifter spring breaks, too bad. If a brake spring breaks, too bad, and so on. The overall impression I got was that people will buy the products because of the Logitech name, and one unhappy customer won't change that. They don't feel the need for carrying replacement parts even for those items which are known to wear out. Here I sit, typing on my Logi cordless keyboard with a Logi cordless mouse, looking over a my kids' Logi Internet keyboard and Mouseman +, and wondering how I will ever get service on these if I need it. I thought companies had to carry parts for a certain number of years by law in the US, but I may be wrong (just applicances?). At any rate, I was completely floored by their attitude. Here are some of my impressions of the LWFF wheel so far: Of the 3 wheels I'm testing LWFF, Ferrari and Force RS, the Logitech rates highest in one category - I like the looks of the spoke design. Of course, that's just personal taste. Customer support rating, 1 to 10: LWFF - zero. I mean, nobody even took the time to read my email. Ferrari - 8.5 and rising. Force RS - 10. Drag to power ratio: By this I mean if you set the wheel all the way to the left or right, how much default spring does it take to center it. The LWFF is 30%, the Ferrari is 13% and the Force RS (lubricated) is 15%. Note though, that the Force RS has a 270� steering arc so the wheel has to travel a greater distance. The LWFF has only 180� and the Ferrari has 220�. So even though the drag is just about the same on the LWFF and the Ferrari, the motor on the LWFF is very weak in comparison. The total steering shaft play (slop), measured at the center of the wheel hub on the LWFF is 1/2", four times that of the Ferrari which measures 1/8". The Force RS measured 1/16". Indicated steering resolution (as measured by the Logi DX Tweaker and GPL setup): LWFF - 655, Ferrari and Force RS - 1024. Pedals, rated in terms of GPL because with some games it just doesn't matter. LWFF - basically junk. Ferrari - excellent. Force RS - excellent after a 1 hour modification. Force Feedback: LWFF - useful, but weak. Ferrari - excellent. Force RS - excellent. When you give an honest review, you're bound to anger some people. I don't mean to offend anyone who is using a LWFF wheel. If you have one and you love it, just think of how much you are going to enjoy your next wheel. Because all pots will eventually need replacement, and because of the general performance of the wheel, I could never recommend the LWFF to anyone. If you were planning to buy one and don't have much money to spend, save yourself 20 bucks and get the Ferrari wheel. If you were planning to buy one and get the CH pedals to go with it, why not go all out and get the Force RS and RS Shifter package and have yourself a real good time. My little disclaimer. I just spent 2 hours in the chair getting a tough tooth pulled and I'm very high on pain killer while writing this. So if it's a little incoherent or my grammar and spelling is off, please don't jump on me. I will probably finish testing the LWFF for my site. Afterwards I'll rely on Guillemot or Act Labs for a replacement pot, depending on who's part matches the best. I'll rebuild the pedals with Act Labs components and maybe add a stick shifter. Then I won't feel bad when I sell it. If you have found a source for LWFF replacement pots, please let me know by email and that information will also be passed along on my web site. Slot

Yeh they must have a automated service tech.I sent them an email as i cant seem to get my log yellow calibrated properly. needles jump on the brake even when im not touching it. I explained in the email that i reinstalled dx 7 and also used there clear calibration utility off their website.and lo and behold 4 days later I got an Email telling me that reinstalling dx7 could help but if that doesnt work to try using the clear calibration utility off their site. They were even kind enough to send me the link hehe. I was shocked hehe. Do they think we're all morons. so i called and luckily its still under warranty. The guy told me to reinstall dx7 again and call him back if it didnt work. Oh I just had a thought......does anyone think that reinstalling DX7 would work......why didnt i think of that GTX_SlotCar wrote:

Quoted text (91 lines)

> > Maybe I've been dealing with Act Labs customer support too long to remember > what the rest of the real world of tech support is really like. The LWFF > wheel I have centers slightly to the right of top dead center. There are no > internal adjustments to fix this properly. There is a trimmer that adjusts > the spring forces slightly, but doing so centers the wheel, not the > calibration. In other words, I can make the wheel center perfectly but the > calibration shifts also so that when driving forces straighten the wheel, > you go in circles. Rotating the steering pot can take care of this, but then > you won't get full left (or right) steering. You get more like a full 90� > right (for example) but only 75� left. So, in a nutshell, the only cure is > to replace the pot. In fact I did try putting the brake pot in to check the > steering, and it did center perfectly. Of course, because the pots are > different values, the brake pot only gave about 50� of steering arc, so I > couldn't leave it this way. I just did it to make sure changing the pot > would cure the problem. > > So, a couple days ago I sent an email to Logitech's tech support to see if I > could buy an new pot. Today I received a reply, and it was obvious that > nobody actually read my email. A few minutes ago I called Logitech tech > support. I was told that the products carry a 1 year warranty, but that I > voided mine by taking the wheel apart. Well, I already knew this. All I want > to do is *buy* a pot. But, they don't have any. What they are willing to do > is send me a replacement wheel for $100. I was also told that after the > warranty period is over, no parts except maybe power supplies can be > ordered. No gas or brake springs, no gas, brake or steering pots, nothing. > You're on your own. If a shifter spring breaks, too bad. If a brake spring > breaks, too bad, and so on. The overall impression I got was that people > will buy the products because of the Logitech name, and one unhappy customer > won't change that. They don't feel the need for carrying replacement parts > even for those items which are known to wear out. Here I sit, typing on my > Logi cordless keyboard with a Logi cordless mouse, looking over a my kids' > Logi Internet keyboard and Mouseman +, and wondering how I will ever get > service on these if I need it. I thought companies had to carry parts for a > certain number of years by law in the US, but I may be wrong (just > applicances?). At any rate, I was completely floored by their attitude. > > Here are some of my impressions of the LWFF wheel so far: > Of the 3 wheels I'm testing LWFF, Ferrari and Force RS, the Logitech rates > highest in one category - I like the looks of the spoke design. Of course, > that's just personal taste. > > Customer support rating, 1 to 10: LWFF - zero. I mean, nobody even took the > time to read my email. Ferrari - 8.5 and rising. Force RS - 10. > > Drag to power ratio: By this I mean if you set the wheel all the way to the > left or right, how much default spring does it take to center it. The LWFF > is 30%, the Ferrari is 13% and the Force RS (lubricated) is 15%. Note > though, that the Force RS has a 270� steering arc so the wheel has to travel > a greater distance. The LWFF has only 180� and the Ferrari has 220�. So even > though the drag is just about the same on the LWFF and the Ferrari, the > motor on the LWFF is very weak in comparison. > > The total steering shaft play (slop), measured at the center of the wheel > hub on the LWFF is 1/2", four times that of the Ferrari which measures 1/8". > The Force RS measured 1/16". > > Indicated steering resolution (as measured by the Logi DX Tweaker and GPL > setup): LWFF - 655, Ferrari and Force RS - 1024. > > Pedals, rated in terms of GPL because with some games it just doesn't > matter. LWFF - basically junk. Ferrari - excellent. Force RS - excellent > after a 1 hour modification. > > Force Feedback: LWFF - useful, but weak. Ferrari - excellent. Force RS - > excellent. > > When you give an honest review, you're bound to anger some people. I don't > mean to offend anyone who is using a LWFF wheel. If you have one and you > love it, just think of how much you are going to enjoy your next wheel. > Because all pots will eventually need replacement, and because of the > general performance of the wheel, I could never recommend the LWFF to > anyone. If you were planning to buy one and don't have much money to spend, > save yourself 20 bucks and get the Ferrari wheel. If you were planning to > buy one and get the CH pedals to go with it, why not go all out and get the > Force RS and RS Shifter package and have yourself a real good time. > > My little disclaimer. I just spent 2 hours in the chair getting a tough > tooth pulled and I'm very high on pain killer while writing this. So if it's > a little incoherent or my grammar and spelling is off, please don't jump on > me. > > I will probably finish testing the LWFF for my site. Afterwards I'll rely on > Guillemot or Act Labs for a replacement pot, depending on who's part matches > the best. I'll rebuild the pedals with Act Labs components and maybe add a > stick shifter. Then I won't feel bad when I sell it. > > If you have found a source for LWFF replacement pots, please let me know by > email and that information will also be passed along on my web site. > > Slot

I agree its a great wheel...for the money i feel its the best Im just unhappy with Logitechs email respone....plain and simple M2wb wrote:

Quoted text (133 lines)

> > I paid $89 for my LWFF and have had ot for more than a year. > > I doesnt owe me a thing. I have had great service from it, it has increased > my enjoyment of many racing sims, and actually turned me on to FF . > > I know htere are better wheels out there, but show me one better for $89 tha > t lasts for over 1 year of hard use (kids, dog chewing it, me hitting it - I > suck at GPL, etc...) And I will give that wheel some thought AFTER the LWFF > breaks down. > > ed > > "GTX_SlotCar" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:_ttJ4.1655$J81.1092 > [email hidden]... > > Maybe I've been dealing with Act Labs customer support too long to remembe > r > > what the rest of the real world of tech support is really like. The LWFF > > wheel I have centers slightly to the right of top dead center. There are n > o > > internal adjustments to fix this properly. There is a trimmer that adjusts > > the spring forces slightly, but doing so centers the wheel, not the > > calibration. In other words, I can make the wheel center perfectly but the > > calibration shifts also so that when driving forces straighten the wheel, > > you go in circles. Rotating the steering pot can take care of this, but th > en > > you won't get full left (or right) steering. You get more like a full 90� > > right (for example) but only 75� left. So, in a nutshell, the only cure is > > to replace the pot. In fact I did try putting the brake pot in to check th > e > > steering, and it did center perfectly. Of course, because the pots are > > different values, the brake pot only gave about 50� of steering arc, so I > > couldn't leave it this way. I just did it to make sure changing the pot > > would cure the problem. > > > > So, a couple days ago I sent an email to Logitech's tech support to see if > I > > could buy an new pot. Today I received a reply, and it was obvious that > > nobody actually read my email. A few minutes ago I called Logitech tech > > support. I was told that the products carry a 1 year warranty, but that I > > voided mine by taking the wheel apart. Well, I already knew this. All I wa > nt > > to do is *buy* a pot. But, they don't have any. What they are willing to d > o > > is send me a replacement wheel for $100. I was also told that after the > > warranty period is over, no parts except maybe power supplies can be > > ordered. No gas or brake springs, no gas, brake or steering pots, nothing. > > You're on your own. If a shifter spring breaks, too bad. If a brake spring > > breaks, too bad, and so on. The overall impression I got was that people > > will buy the products because of the Logitech name, and one unhappy custom > er > > won't change that. They don't feel the need for carrying replacement parts > > even for those items which are known to wear out. Here I sit, typing on my > > Logi cordless keyboard with a Logi cordless mouse, looking over a my kids' > > Logi Internet keyboard and Mouseman +, and wondering how I will ever get > > service on these if I need it. I thought companies had to carry parts for > a > > certain number of years by law in the US, but I may be wrong (just > > applicances?). At any rate, I was completely floored by their attitude. > > > > Here are some of my impressions of the LWFF wheel so far: > > Of the 3 wheels I'm testing LWFF, Ferrari and Force RS, the Logitech rates > > highest in one category - I like the looks of the spoke design. Of course, > > that's just personal taste. > > > > Customer support rating, 1 to 10: LWFF - zero. I mean, nobody even took t > he > > time to read my email. Ferrari - 8.5 and rising. Force RS - 10. > > > > Drag to power ratio: By this I mean if you set the wheel all the way to t > he > > left or right, how much default spring does it take to center it. The LWFF > > is 30%, the Ferrari is 13% and the Force RS (lubricated) is 15%. Note > > though, that the Force RS has a 270� steering arc so the wheel has to trav > el > > a greater distance. The LWFF has only 180� and the Ferrari has 220�. So ev > en > > though the drag is just about the same on the LWFF and the Ferrari, the > > motor on the LWFF is very weak in comparison. > > > > The total steering shaft play (slop), measured at the center of the wheel > > hub on the LWFF is 1/2", four times that of the Ferrari which measures 1/8 > ". > > The Force RS measured 1/16". > > > > Indicated steering resolution (as measured by the Logi DX Tweaker and GPL > > setup): LWFF - 655, Ferrari and Force RS - 1024. > > > > Pedals, rated in terms of GPL because with some games it just doesn't > > matter. LWFF - basically junk. Ferrari - excellent. Force RS - excellent > > after a 1 hour modification. > > > > Force Feedback: LWFF - useful, but weak. Ferrari - excellent. Force RS - > > excellent. > > > > When you give an honest review, you're bound to anger some people. I don't > > mean to offend anyone who is using a LWFF wheel. If you have one and you > > love it, just think of how much you are going to enjoy your next wheel. > > Because all pots will eventually need replacement, and because of the > > general performance of the wheel, I could never recommend the LWFF to > > anyone. If you were planning to buy one and don't have much money to spend > , > > save yourself 20 bucks and get the Ferrari wheel. If you were planning to > > buy one and get the CH pedals to go with it, why not go all out and get th > e > > Force RS and RS Shifter package and have yourself a real good time. > > > > My little disclaimer. I just spent 2 hours in the chair getting a tough > > tooth pulled and I'm very high on pain killer while writing this. So if it > 's > > a little incoherent or my grammar and spelling is off, please don't jump o > n > > me. > > > > I will probably finish testing the LWFF for my site. Afterwards I'll rely > on > > Guillemot or Act Labs for a replacement pot, depending on who's part match > es > > the best. I'll rebuild the pedals with Act Labs components and maybe add a > > stick shifter. Then I won't feel bad when I sell it. > > > > If you have found a source for LWFF replacement pots, please let me know b > y > > email and that information will also be passed along on my web site. > > > > Slot > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

Before the replies in this thread gets too far along, please don't blast me for things I'm *not* saying. For example, I don't have a problem with a company that will exchange a product when it's within it's warranty period. I *do* have a problem when a company won't supply (sell) parts for it's products that are out of warranty, especially when the part is a normal wear item. CH, Guillemot, Thrustmaster (then and now), Act Labs, all the expensive wheels (like ECCI), and several other companies support their products when the warranty is over. It's pretty sad when we have to celebrate the fact that a company actually honored their warranty. I also expect that if I'm required to fill out a form to contact tech support, that someone from tech support should actually take the time to read that form before sending me a reply. Believe me when I tell you that I could put the wheel back together so no tech support person could ever tell it had been apart. In short, I could have lied and gotten a replacement. Nobody would have known, nobody except for me, that is. The arguements in this tread shouldn't be whether or not Logitech treated you right by honoring their warranty, but whether or not you think they should provide parts once the warranty is over. Then again, I suppose you could debate whether or not a pot is a normal wear item. I would also like hear from anyone knowing where compatible replacement pots can be bought so this information can passed along to other LWFF owners. Finally, my other impressions of the wheel are independant of the customer support issue. Slot

Slot, Sorry to hear your wheel must have been assembled on a Monday morning. My LWFF doesn't have slop, centers perfectly and provides enough force to wring the wheel out of my hands. However, you raise a worrying point about the pot wearing out. In a year or so we'll all have to replace it, so it looks like we all will have a problem. There's one message board that Logitech is reading, and that's the one at www.force-1.com. Also the forum at www.wingmanteam.com seems to provide 'official' answers. Did you try posting there? Please keep us informed. -- Bye, Leo

"GTX_SlotCar" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:_ttJ4.1655$[email hidden]... > Maybe I've been dealing with Act Labs customer support too long toremember > what the rest of the real world of tech support is really like. The LWFF > wheel I have centers slightly to the right of top dead center. There areno > internal adjustments to fix this properly. There is a trimmer that adjusts > the spring forces slightly, but doing so centers the wheel, not the > calibration. In other words, I can make the wheel center perfectly but the > calibration shifts also so that when driving forces straighten the wheel, > you go in circles. Rotating the steering pot can take care of this, butthen > you won't get full left (or right) steering. You get more like a full 90� > right (for example) but only 75� left. So, in a nutshell, the only cure is > to replace the pot. In fact I did try putting the brake pot in to checkthe > steering, and it did center perfectly. Of course, because the pots are > different values, the brake pot only gave about 50� of steering arc, so I > couldn't leave it this way. I just did it to make sure changing the pot > would cure the problem. > > So, a couple days ago I sent an email to Logitech's tech support to see ifI > could buy an new pot. Today I received a reply, and it was obvious that > nobody actually read my email. A few minutes ago I called Logitech tech > support. I was told that the products carry a 1 year warranty, but that I > voided mine by taking the wheel apart. Well, I already knew this. All Iwant > to do is *buy* a pot. But, they don't have any. What they are willing todo > is send me a replacement wheel for $100. I was also told that after the > warranty period is over, no parts except maybe power supplies can be > ordered. No gas or brake springs, no gas, brake or steering pots, nothing. > You're on your own. If a shifter spring breaks, too bad. If a brake spring > breaks, too bad, and so on. The overall impression I got was that people > will buy the products because of the Logitech name, and one unhappycustomer > won't change that. They don't feel the need for carrying replacement parts > even for those items which are known to wear out. Here I sit, typing on my > Logi cordless keyboard with a Logi cordless mouse, looking over a my kids' > Logi Internet keyboard and Mouseman +, and wondering how I will ever get > service on these if I need it. I thought companies had to carry parts fora > certain number of years by law in the US, but I may be wrong (just > applicances?). At any rate, I was completely floored by their attitude. >Welcome to the club. I can't run 3.3 without losing seperate pedal axis. I E-mail Logi, filling out the long form, Procuct name, model number, part number, detailed description of what the problem is and what I've done to try to correct it. They send me back an E-mail saying that my rudder pedals will work fine if I connect them to my game port or USB port. Rudder Pedals? And gee, why didn't I think of plugging them in? So, I return reply. Nope, can't do that. I get mail back saying I have to go back to the site and start all over again if I want a response. I have a first generation non-force Logi Wheel. Spiked badly right out of the box. Ok, so I voided the warrenty and took it apart and cleaned them out. This kept it going for a while. Now, out of warranty, the pots are beyond hope. Logi can't sell me new ones, and I, living in a "developed" country can't obtain them through a proffesional electronics parts jobber either. Bugger that. So, anyhoo, despite all this I have just purchased a LWFF. I was a little wary, but people kept posting that they loved theirs. Well, mine has slop, high friction, and a "classic" bent motor post. Well, I've voided the warranty dicking with it already and I'll modify the hell out of it to try to get it working the way I would like, but I'm not going to buy another Logi wheel. Period. PDPI, wither art thou? Another anyhoo, the idea that there is a law requiring manufacturers to make replacment parts is one of the three great American legal Urban legends. There is no such law, there never will be any such law, and if you think about you'll come up with dozens of reasons why this is so. It just plain wouldn't work on so many practical and legal levels it isn't even funny. I don't know where this urban legend comes from, but that's what it is. Get used to the idea. (The other two? 1: You can't sue the government. Don't people have the slightest idea what the constitution says, or read the papers, where virtually every day there are stories about people suing the government? 2: The legal age for having sex is 18. Nope, it varies by state, but the last time I checked the actual laws, which may vary year to year by the way so your states milage may vary, it ranged from a high of 17 in NY to a low of 12 in Fla. And that, of course, is if one of the parties is above that age and the other isn't. If BOTH parties are underage it comes out even Steven.) Hey JS, how about posting a little bit about your bearing conversion kit, and obtaining it outside of Malaysia, here in this thread?

Sorry to hear about your Logi experience Slot... "M2wb" <kloskowskiATmindspringDOTcom> wrote in message news:8d5v4t$kpl$[email hidden]... > I paid $89 for my LWFF and have had ot for more than a year. > > I doesnt owe me a thing. I have had great service from it, it hasincreased > my enjoyment of many racing sims, and actually turned me on to FF . > > I know htere are better wheels out there, but show me one better for $89tha > t lasts for over 1 year of hard use (kids, dog chewing it, me hitting it -I > suck at GPL, etc...) And I will give that wheel some thought AFTER theLWFF > breaks down. > > ed > > "GTX_SlotCar" <[email hidden]> wrote in messagenews:_ttJ4.1655$J81.1092 > [email hidden]... > > Maybe I've been dealing with Act Labs customer support too long toremembe > r > > what the rest of the real world of tech support is really like. The LWFF > > wheel I have centers slightly to the right of top dead center. There aren > o > > internal adjustments to fix this properly. There is a trimmer thatadjusts > > the spring forces slightly, but doing so centers the wheel, not the > > calibration. In other words, I can make the wheel center perfectly butthe > > calibration shifts also so that when driving forces straighten thewheel, > > you go in circles. Rotating the steering pot can take care of this, butth > en > > you won't get full left (or right) steering. You get more like a full90� > > right (for example) but only 75� left. So, in a nutshell, the only cureis > > to replace the pot. In fact I did try putting the brake pot in to checkth > e > > steering, and it did center perfectly. Of course, because the pots are > > different values, the brake pot only gave about 50� of steering arc, soI > > couldn't leave it this way. I just did it to make sure changing the pot > > would cure the problem. > > > > So, a couple days ago I sent an email to Logitech's tech support to seeif > I > > could buy an new pot. Today I received a reply, and it was obvious that > > nobody actually read my email. A few minutes ago I called Logitech tech > > support. I was told that the products carry a 1 year warranty, but thatI > > voided mine by taking the wheel apart. Well, I already knew this. All Iwa > nt > > to do is *buy* a pot. But, they don't have any. What they are willing tod > o > > is send me a replacement wheel for $100. I was also told that after the > > warranty period is over, no parts except maybe power supplies can be > > ordered. No gas or brake springs, no gas, brake or steering pots,nothing. > > You're on your own. If a shifter spring breaks, too bad. If a brakespring > > breaks, too bad, and so on. The overall impression I got was that people > > will buy the products because of the Logitech name, and one unhappycustom > er > > won't change that. They don't feel the need for carrying replacementparts > > even for those items which are known to wear out. Here I sit, typing onmy > > Logi cordless keyboard with a Logi cordless mouse, looking over a mykids' > > Logi Internet keyboard and Mouseman +, and wondering how I will ever get > > service on these if I need it. I thought companies had to carry partsfor > a > > certain number of years by law in the US, but I may be wrong (just > > applicances?). At any rate, I was completely floored by their attitude. > > > > Here are some of my impressions of the LWFF wheel so far: > > Of the 3 wheels I'm testing LWFF, Ferrari and Force RS, the Logitechrates > > highest in one category - I like the looks of the spoke design. Ofcourse, > > that's just personal taste. > > > > Customer support rating, 1 to 10: LWFF - zero. I mean, nobody even tookt > he > > time to read my email. Ferrari - 8.5 and rising. Force RS - 10. > > > > Drag to power ratio: By this I mean if you set the wheel all the way tot > he > > left or right, how much default spring does it take to center it. TheLWFF > > is 30%, the Ferrari is 13% and the Force RS (lubricated) is 15%. Note > > though, that the Force RS has a 270� steering arc so the wheel has totrav > el > > a greater distance. The LWFF has only 180� and the Ferrari has 220�. Soev > en > > though the drag is just about the same on the LWFF and the Ferrari, the > > motor on the LWFF is very weak in comparison. > > > > The total steering shaft play (slop), measured at the center of thewheel > > hub on the LWFF is 1/2", four times that of the Ferrari which measures1/8 > ". > > The Force RS measured 1/16". > > > > Indicated steering resolution (as measured by the Logi DX Tweaker andGPL

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> > setup): LWFF - 655, Ferrari and Force RS - 1024. > > > > Pedals, rated in terms of GPL because with some games it just doesn't > > matter. LWFF - basically junk. Ferrari - excellent. Force RS - excellent > > after a 1 hour modification. > > > > Force Feedback: LWFF - useful, but weak. Ferrari - excellent. Force RS - > > excellent. > > > > When you give an honest review, you're bound to anger some people. I

don't > > mean to offend anyone who is using a LWFF wheel. If you have one and you > > love it, just think of how much you are going to enjoy your next wheel. > > Because all pots will eventually need replacement, and because of the > > general performance of the wheel, I could never recommend the LWFF to > > anyone. If you were planning to buy one and don't have much money tospend > , > > save yourself 20 bucks and get the Ferrari wheel. If you were planningto > > buy one and get the CH pedals to go with it, why not go all out and getth > e > > Force RS and RS Shifter package and have yourself a real good time. > > > > My little disclaimer. I just spent 2 hours in the chair getting a tough > > tooth pulled and I'm very high on pain killer while writing this. So ifit > 's > > a little incoherent or my grammar and spelling is off, please don't jumpo > n > > me. > > > > I will probably finish testing the LWFF for my site. Afterwards I'llrely > on > > Guillemot or Act Labs for a replacement pot, depending on who's partmatch > es > > the best. I'll rebuild the pedals with Act Labs components and maybe adda > > stick shifter. Then I won't feel bad when I sell it. > > > > If you have found a source for LWFF replacement pots, please let me knowb

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> y > > email and that information will also be passed along on my web site. > > > > Slot > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

Leo YOU GOT THE EDITION 2020 PROTOTYPE WITH BALL BEARINGS!!! Congrats ;-) Unluckily your wheel seems to be the exception, Leo. I could swear its from Taiwan. Jens On Fri, 14 Apr 2000 10:52:27 +0200, "Leo Landman" <[email hidden]> wrote: >Slot, >Sorry to hear your wheel must have been assembled on a Monday morning. >My LWFF doesn't have slop, centers perfectly and provides enough force >to wring the wheel out of my hands.<snip> --------------------------------------------- [email hidden] Remove "NOSPAM" before using my email-address JensSchumi homepage at http://members.xoom.com/JensSchu/ Racing simulation, esp. GPL Logitech Wingman FF optimization Classic cars, esp. Morris Minor Radio controlled airplanes

Kevin, if you push me to do so, here it goes: Ball bearing conversion kits are available through me WORLDWIDE. The first 6 sets are already sent out, 1 is already in its wheel. For details check out my web-page. For further details please email me. Since I will be out for some time, there is the chance to make arrangements until next tuesday (18th). Pipeline will be open again only one month later - sorry 'bout this. Man, I'm feeling good now ;-) Jens On Sat, 15 Apr 2000 00:14:07 -0400, "Kevin Gavitt" <[email hidden]> wrote: <snip>> >Hey JS, how about posting a little bit about your bearing conversion kit, >and obtaining it outside of Malaysia, here in this thread? > --------------------------------------------- [email hidden] Remove "NOSPAM" before using my email-address JensSchumi homepage at http://members.xoom.com/JensSchu/ Racing simulation, esp. GPL Logitech Wingman FF optimization Classic cars, esp. Morris Minor Radio controlled airplanes

Kevin, some remarks are inserted. On Sat, 15 Apr 2000 00:14:07 -0400, "Kevin Gavitt" <[email hidden]> wrote: <snip> >So, anyhoo, despite all this I have just purchased a LWFF. I was a little >wary, but people kept posting that they loved theirs. Well, mine has slop, >high friction, and a "classic" bent motor post. Also welcome to the club. ><snip> >Another anyhoo, the idea that there is a law requiring manufacturers to make >replacment parts is one of the three great American legal Urban legends. >There is no such law, there never will be any such law, and if you think<snip> nice story from Germany: Car manufacturers have to supply spare-parts for at least 20 years after discontinuing a model. I the 70th Ford stocked up one giant store with spare-parts and stopped certain product-lines. Unluckily the store burned down. Result: No more parts for (german) models around the 70th, Ford was released from its duty to supply parts since that moment. Jens --------------------------------------------- [email hidden] Remove "NOSPAM" before using my email-address JensSchumi homepage at http://members.xoom.com/JensSchu/ Racing simulation, esp. GPL Logitech Wingman FF optimization Classic cars, esp. Morris Minor Radio controlled airplanes

Hi Jens, Actually, I added a 470K ohm resistor across the red and brown (parallel) pot leads and it centered the wheel perfectly. Of course, saying this will make some people think I didn't have anything to complain about. Others will hopefully realize that my complaint wasn't that the wheel didn't center perfectly, but was about Logitech's policy. I still prefer to replace the pot because I think it's a more professional way to fix it, and eventually all pots have to be replaced. Plus, there may be people who don't know where and what to add to fix the problem. BTW, I also removed the nylon stoppers from the posts and put smaller, high-impact rubber stoppers on the rotating lock instead. It added another 30� to the steering arc (from 180 to about 210�). The pot calibrates through the entire arc. I got rid of some of the steering slop just be securing the outer nylon bearing housing to the brass faceplate with a mylar shim and hot glue. It's secure, but can be disassembled later if necessary. All these things did make the wheel more usable and are simple fixes using either no new parts or parts available at any hardware store. Not as nice as your ball bearings, but simple tweaks that just about anybody can do in an hour or two. I see no easy fix for the pedals. Too bad, they operate smoothly enough, there's just not enough pedal travel. I can increase the travel and change it to a more natural horizontal throw, but the Logi pots have such a limited arc that the fix isn't worth it. I wonder if Logitech has a sense of humor. I'd like to load this wheel up with Act Labs parts (pedals and shifter) and send them a picture of it explaining how to make their wheel better ;-) Slot "JS" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > Hi Slot, > > welcome in the row of ignored customers. > I can only advice anyone who is interested in the LWFF to mail to thesupport, > whether they have improved their s..t performance before buying a wheel. > To Logi-owners, especially those with bad experience, the advice: Let themknow > what you think and about your intention to buy another Logi-product yes orno. > > BTW No need to restrain yourself when commenting here. THEY DON'T READ THENG's > > Hardwarewise: > I wasn't brave enough yet to manipulate the trimmer inside the wheel.Thanks for > trying it out. > I had the same probs with slightly right centering and also found the potto be > the reason. Got it straight BTW (check out my webpage for further info). > > According to other reports the pots should be quite a standard (precision)type,

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> although I could not find them in my country yet (this is because of the > country, a bit underdeveloped in those things). > > At the end they should last quite long, I haven't heard any reports about > spiking yet. > > See you > > Jens > > > > On Thu, 13 Apr 2000 20:17:58 -0400, "GTX_SlotCar" <[email hidden]>

wrote: > > >Maybe I've been dealing with Act Labs customer support too long toremember

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> >what the rest of the real world of tech support is really like. The LWFF > <snip> > --------------------------------------------- > [email hidden] > Remove "NOSPAM" before using my email-address > > JensSchumi homepage at http://members.xoom.com/JensSchu/ > Racing simulation, esp. GPL > Logitech Wingman FF optimization > Classic cars, esp. Morris Minor > Radio controlled airplanes

Integrity, I guess. I knew I was voiding the warrranty when I took it apart. I broke the rules of their warranty and I can live with that. What I find hard to swallow is that the company doesn't stock any parts. Of course, I'm sure they have some broken wheels hanging around with pots in them and someone just couldn't be bothered to send me one. In my case it's not that bad because I can take care of the problem myself, but I know some people can't. And the policy of sending them my wheel and a hundred bucks to get a new one is rediculous. It would cost me at least $10 to ship the wheel so my total investment would be $110 anyway. I can buy a new wheel for $116 and keep the old one for parts. Or, I could get a non FF version for a lot less and use the pot in that. My wheel is fixed, but what about the next guy's? Slot "tampa" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:8d8fru$l1s$[email hidden]... > Why dont you call again and dont mention you took it apart? > >

I ordered new pots from Thrustmaster simply because my digital multimeter is over at my partner's right now. You need to somehow crossreference the logitech pot for resistance rating (generally 100k ohm) and get thee to www.digikey.com quickly to find a better pot, like a nice, hermetically sealed, conductive plastic unit, that has the same form-factor and resistance. Buy a couple, because they have something like a $20.00 minimum order and be happier with smoother, more stable pots than you'd ever have gotten from Logitech. BTW - that'll be a *linear* pot, not logarithmic. I can only imagine it would be pretty damned challenging to drive with a log pot. <g> Regards, Brett C. Cammack That's Racing! Motorsports Pompano Beach, FL

Slot, We're talking the same language. Logitech-policy sucks, I got them already so far that they don't reply to my inquiries any more :-) Be carefully with your stoppers. If the impact is to hard, the cable to pulley2 tends to misalign. You can hear this by nasty scratching noises when turning the wheel (after impact). Mostely the cable aligns properly by itself again. Jens On Fri, 14 Apr 2000 20:42:46 -0400, "GTX_SlotCar" <[email hidden]> wrote: >Hi Jens, >Actually, I added a 470K ohm resistor across the red and brown (parallel) >pot leads and it centered the wheel perfectly. Of course, saying this will >make some people think I didn't have anything to complain about. Others will<snip> --------------------------------------------- [email hidden] Remove "NOSPAM" before using my email-address JensSchumi homepage at http://members.xoom.com/JensSchu/ Racing simulation, esp. GPL Logitech Wingman FF optimization Classic cars, esp. Morris Minor Radio controlled airplanes

:-((( On Sat, 15 Apr 2000 07:53:12 -0400, "GTX_SlotCar" <[email hidden]> wrote: <snip>

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>that. My wheel is fixed, but what about the next guy's? > >Slot > > > >"tampa" <[email hidden]> wrote in message >news:8d8fru$l1s$[email hidden]... >> Why dont you call again and dont mention you took it apart? >> >> >

--------------------------------------------- [email hidden] Remove "NOSPAM" before using my email-address JensSchumi homepage at http://members.xoom.com/JensSchu/ Racing simulation, esp. GPL Logitech Wingman FF optimization Classic cars, esp. Morris Minor Radio controlled airplanes