Re: Ahead of it's time, still is and will be for a long time

Amen! I haven't tried F1 2000 yet, but I have to agree that difficulty does not equate to realism. I have tried NFSPU, and I find that to be VERY realistic, IMO -- definitely at the same end of the spectrum as GPL, AND you even get to see the driver's hands on the wheel . . . <G> GPL = RACING simulation NFSPU = DRIVING simulation Both are good simulators -- it just depends on what you want to simulate, but, as you pointed out, "difficult" does not automatically mean "realistic," and something does not necessarily have to be difficult to be realistic. -- JB In article <8dfhhf$nl2$[email hidden]>, "GraDee" <[email hidden]> wrote: > To be quite honest I feel personally that F1 2000 comes very close toGPL. > > Phsyics wise that is. GPL seems to deal with frame-rates a littlebetter, > but inmy case its only a little. I ahve a medium spec PC I supposeyou'd > call it nowadays and like I said, GPLis only marginally ahead, F12000 at > times provides better FPS at the start of races. > > Maybe I'm wrong but what gives GPL the edge in a lot of peoples mindsis > that fact that it is so difficult and hard to master. Difficulty doesmake a > mroe realistic sim. > > When J./ Villeneive drove the Brabham around Monza last year, hecould > barely drive it, yet he is an ex-world champion of current day F1. > > Newer cars are much easier to drive obviously, making modrn day F1sims that > bit easier, but to be totally honest, in my mind anyway, the phsyicsof F1 > 2000 are the closest thing to modern day f1 there is currently and Idoubt > GP3 even if unbelievably realistc can improve on it immencly. Thenagain, > you'll disagree when I say that GPL's phsyics are over-exadurated attimes. > Difficulty does not mean realism, I stress this time and tiem again. > > Vintook <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:YRGK4.10567$[email hidden]... > > I've been reading allot of posts now about GP3 and others likeF12000 and > > marvel again at what GPL is. I just read that GP3 doesn't havehands on > the > > steering wheel, too much of a framerate hit? GPL has them and itdoesn't > > affect the framerate all that much, if any and it really adds to the > in-car > > feeling. N4 is soon to come out, is it going to have hands on thewheel > and > > are you going to be able to see the drivers ahead raise their handsin the > > car or even turn their heads? I bet not. Does any other driving simhave > > these things? These little things are what made my jaw drop when Igot > GPL, > > and that was after I had just picked it up off the floor from thephysics. > I > > just sit back and look at GPL and marvel at the quality of it. Idon't > think > > anyone will be able to match it in the future (notice I didn't saythe

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> near > > future either). > > > > Vintook > > > > > > > >

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I agree.

RC2000 does.

I've been reading allot of posts now about GP3 and others like F12000 and marvel again at what GPL is. I just read that GP3 doesn't have hands on the steering wheel, too much of a framerate hit? GPL has them and it doesn't affect the framerate all that much, if any and it really adds to the in-car feeling. N4 is soon to come out, is it going to have hands on the wheel and are you going to be able to see the drivers ahead raise their hands in the car or even turn their heads? I bet not. Does any other driving sim have these things? These little things are what made my jaw drop when I got GPL, and that was after I had just picked it up off the floor from the physics. I just sit back and look at GPL and marvel at the quality of it. I don't think anyone will be able to match it in the future (notice I didn't say the near future either). Vintook

I agree. "Vintook" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:YRGK4.10567$[email hidden]... > I've been reading allot of posts now about GP3 and others like F12000 and > marvel again at what GPL is. I just read that GP3 doesn't have hands onthe > steering wheel, too much of a framerate hit? GPL has them and it doesn't > affect the framerate all that much, if any and it really adds to thein-car > feeling. N4 is soon to come out, is it going to have hands on the wheeland > are you going to be able to see the drivers ahead raise their hands in the > car or even turn their heads? I bet not. Does any other driving sim have > these things? These little things are what made my jaw drop when I gotGPL, > and that was after I had just picked it up off the floor from the physics.I > just sit back and look at GPL and marvel at the quality of it. I don'tthink > anyone will be able to match it in the future (notice I didn't say thenear > future either). > > Vintook > > >

To be quite honest I feel personally that F1 2000 comes very close to GPL. Phsyics wise that is. GPL seems to deal with frame-rates a little better, but inmy case its only a little. I ahve a medium spec PC I suppose you'd call it nowadays and like I said, GPLis only marginally ahead, F1 2000 at times provides better FPS at the start of races. Maybe I'm wrong but what gives GPL the edge in a lot of peoples minds is that fact that it is so difficult and hard to master. Difficulty does make a mroe realistic sim. When J./ Villeneive drove the Brabham around Monza last year, he could barely drive it, yet he is an ex-world champion of current day F1. Newer cars are much easier to drive obviously, making modrn day F1 sims that bit easier, but to be totally honest, in my mind anyway, the phsyics of F1 2000 are the closest thing to modern day f1 there is currently and I doubt GP3 even if unbelievably realistc can improve on it immencly. Then again, you'll disagree when I say that GPL's phsyics are over-exadurated at times. Difficulty does not mean realism, I stress this time and tiem again. Vintook <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:YRGK4.10567$[email hidden]... > I've been reading allot of posts now about GP3 and others like F12000 and > marvel again at what GPL is. I just read that GP3 doesn't have hands onthe > steering wheel, too much of a framerate hit? GPL has them and it doesn't > affect the framerate all that much, if any and it really adds to thein-car > feeling. N4 is soon to come out, is it going to have hands on the wheeland > are you going to be able to see the drivers ahead raise their hands in the > car or even turn their heads? I bet not. Does any other driving sim have > these things? These little things are what made my jaw drop when I gotGPL, > and that was after I had just picked it up off the floor from the physics.I > just sit back and look at GPL and marvel at the quality of it. I don'tthink > anyone will be able to match it in the future (notice I didn't say thenear > future either). > > Vintook > > >

On Mon, 17 Apr 2000 16:21:12 GMT, "Vintook" <[email hidden]> wrote:

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>I've been reading allot of posts now about GP3 and others like F12000 and >marvel again at what GPL is. I just read that GP3 doesn't have hands on the >steering wheel, too much of a framerate hit? GPL has them and it doesn't >affect the framerate all that much, if any and it really adds to the in-car >feeling. N4 is soon to come out, is it going to have hands on the wheel and >are you going to be able to see the drivers ahead raise their hands in the >car or even turn their heads? I bet not. Does any other driving sim have >these things? These little things are what made my jaw drop when I got GPL, >and that was after I had just picked it up off the floor from the physics. I >just sit back and look at GPL and marvel at the quality of it. I don't think >anyone will be able to match it in the future (notice I didn't say the near >future either).

Papyrus certainly implemented the virtual hands quite well. Although they're fairly static on the wheel, unless you raise the single arm, they still add a nice effect. Some of us sometimes turn off the hands though, as it can feel a little distracting at times. I was a little surprised at the lack of hands in GP3 when I first heard that they wouldn't be using any, but having seen a small video clip of what the cockpit looks like, I actually think it looks pretty good without the hands and still looks damned realistic. Alpha Omega E-Mail: [email hidden] ICQ: 70300233

I agree that the physics of F1 2000 are very close to GPL. What really spoils F1 2000 for me is the track modeling. The parabolica at Monza is modeled with 2 straight sections connected with 3 curves. I am not that familiar with the other tracks, but this corner alone turns me off. Dave. GraDee <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:8dfhhf$nl2$[email hidden]...

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> To be quite honest I feel personally that F1 2000 comes very close to GPL. > > Phsyics wise that is. GPL seems to deal with frame-rates a little better, > but inmy case its only a little. I ahve a medium spec PC I suppose you'd > call it nowadays and like I said, GPLis only marginally ahead, F1 2000 at > times provides better FPS at the start of races. > > Maybe I'm wrong but what gives GPL the edge in a lot of peoples minds is > that fact that it is so difficult and hard to master. Difficulty does make

a > mroe realistic sim. > > When J./ Villeneive drove the Brabham around Monza last year, he could > barely drive it, yet he is an ex-world champion of current day F1. > > Newer cars are much easier to drive obviously, making modrn day F1 simsthat > bit easier, but to be totally honest, in my mind anyway, the phsyics of F1 > 2000 are the closest thing to modern day f1 there is currently and I doubt > GP3 even if unbelievably realistc can improve on it immencly. Then again, > you'll disagree when I say that GPL's phsyics are over-exadurated attimes. > Difficulty does not mean realism, I stress this time and tiem again. > > > Vintook <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:YRGK4.10567$[email hidden]... > > I've been reading allot of posts now about GP3 and others like F12000and

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> > marvel again at what GPL is. I just read that GP3 doesn't have hands on > the > > steering wheel, too much of a framerate hit? GPL has them and it doesn't > > affect the framerate all that much, if any and it really adds to the > in-car > > feeling. N4 is soon to come out, is it going to have hands on the wheel > and > > are you going to be able to see the drivers ahead raise their hands in

the > > car or even turn their heads? I bet not. Does any other driving sim have > > these things? These little things are what made my jaw drop when I got > GPL, > > and that was after I had just picked it up off the floor from thephysics.

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> I > > just sit back and look at GPL and marvel at the quality of it. I don't > think > > anyone will be able to match it in the future (notice I didn't say the > near > > future either). > > > > Vintook > > > > > > > >

RC2000 does. "Vintook" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:YRGK4.10567$[email hidden]... > I've been reading allot of posts now about GP3 and others like F12000 and > marvel again at what GPL is. I just read that GP3 doesn't have hands onthe > steering wheel, too much of a framerate hit? GPL has them and it doesn't > affect the framerate all that much, if any and it really adds to thein-car > feeling. N4 is soon to come out, is it going to have hands on the wheeland > are you going to be able to see the drivers ahead raise their hands in the > car or even turn their heads? I bet not. Does any other driving sim have > these things?

"Vintook" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:YRGK4.10567$[email hidden]... > I've been reading allot of posts now about GP3 and others like F12000and > marvel again at what GPL is. I just read that GP3 doesn't have handson the > steering wheel, too much of a framerate hit? GPL has them and itdoesn't > affect the framerate all that much, if any and it really adds to thein-car > feeling. N4 is soon to come out, is it going to have hands on thewheel and > are you going to be able to see the drivers ahead raise their hands inthe > car or even turn their heads? I hope so. It was one of the few things I liked about GPL. 2_Slow

On Mon, 17 Apr 2000 18:25:20 +0100, "GraDee" <[email hidden]> wrote: I think you need to cut down on the wacky tabacky.

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>To be quite honest I feel personally that F1 2000 comes very close to GPL. > >Phsyics wise that is. GPL seems to deal with frame-rates a little better, >but inmy case its only a little. I ahve a medium spec PC I suppose you'd >call it nowadays and like I said, GPLis only marginally ahead, F1 2000 at >times provides better FPS at the start of races. > >Maybe I'm wrong but what gives GPL the edge in a lot of peoples minds is >that fact that it is so difficult and hard to master. Difficulty does make a >mroe realistic sim. > >When J./ Villeneive drove the Brabham around Monza last year, he could >barely drive it, yet he is an ex-world champion of current day F1. > >Newer cars are much easier to drive obviously, making modrn day F1 sims that >bit easier, but to be totally honest, in my mind anyway, the phsyics of F1 >2000 are the closest thing to modern day f1 there is currently and I doubt >GP3 even if unbelievably realistc can improve on it immencly. Then again, >you'll disagree when I say that GPL's phsyics are over-exadurated at times. >Difficulty does not mean realism, I stress this time and tiem again. > >

If you reread my post you will see that I didn't really talk about the physics because I knew it would start a fiasco. The main point I am making is that there are other things in GPL besides the physics which make it an excellent simulation, ie the hands on the steering wheel, the raising of the arm, and the turning of the head which you can see on all the other drivers in the race in real time. It was mentioned that RC2000 also has these but I haven't seen this game so I'll have to check it out. Anyway, GPL shows that you can produce a superior quality product with no bugs (yes I know there is a patch for it but I didn't feel it was buggy before the patch or at least I never saw one) that will run very well on today's equipment if you put your mind to it. Granted the game didn't sell well but that was only because it was too realistic for most people. I do agree that difficulty does not mean realism but even you pointed out that when J./ Villeneive drove the Brabham around Monza last year, he could barely drive it, yet he is an ex-world champion of current day F1. That statement alone leads me to believe that GPL is fairly accurate. Vintook

On Tue, 18 Apr 2000 04:43:24 GMT, "Vintook" <[email hidden]> wrote:

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>If you reread my post you will see that I didn't really talk about the >physics because I knew it would start a fiasco. The main point I am making >is that there are other things in GPL besides the physics which make it an >excellent simulation, ie the hands on the steering wheel, the raising of the >arm, and the turning of the head which you can see on all the other drivers >in the race in real time. >It was mentioned that RC2000 also has these but I haven't seen this game so >I'll have to check it out. >Anyway, GPL shows that you can produce a superior quality product with no >bugs (yes I know there is a patch for it but I didn't feel it was buggy >before the patch or at least I never saw one) that will run very well on >today's equipment if you put your mind to it. Granted the game didn't sell >well but that was only because it was too realistic for most people. I do >agree that difficulty does not mean realism but even you pointed out that >when J./ Villeneive drove the Brabham around Monza last year, he could >barely drive it, yet he is an ex-world champion of current day F1. That >statement alone leads me to believe that GPL is fairly accurate. > >Vintook >

From what I read,the reason Villeneive had such a hard time was in his own words "the damm car wont turn-in"He most likely would of needed weeks to learn how much to slow down to properlly execute the turns with the minimal grip the cars have. >

On Mon, 17 Apr 2000 18:25:20 +0100, "GraDee" I think you need to cut down on the wacky tabacky.

Isn't that what I was trying to explain?

"GraDee" <[email hidden]> wrote: >To be quite honest I feel personally that F1 2000 comes very close to GPL. > >Phsyics wise that is. GPL seems to deal with frame-rates a little better, >but inmy case its only a little. I ahve a medium spec PC I suppose you'd >call it nowadays and like I said, GPLis only marginally ahead, F1 2000 at >times provides better FPS at the start of races. I agree that the physics of F1 2000 are quite well, once you've got your controls setup right. I couldn't get split axis at first with my Hyperstim, and with single axis the release of the brake didn't work well. Now I've figured out how to get dual axis (First setup the single axis in F1 2000, then set the controls to dualaxis in Windows, after that ONLY do the brake and throttle in F1 2000 controller setup, without setting other controller buttons....) After that, driving in Training mode is a blast. Too bad there is (yet) so much broken to make it the game what it could be... >Maybe I'm wrong but what gives GPL the edge in a lot of peoples minds is >that fact that it is so difficult and hard to master. Difficulty does make a >mroe realistic sim. This is true to some extend, but you can't convince me that racing on the edge in real life is easy.... >When J./ Villeneive drove the Brabham around Monza last year, he could >barely drive it, yet he is an ex-world champion of current day F1. The problem with real life drivers is that you can't trust them. You won't expect him to say that driving these cars are easy, do you? >Newer cars are much easier to drive obviously, making modrn day F1 sims that >bit easier, but to be totally honest, in my mind anyway, the phsyics of F1 >2000 are the closest thing to modern day f1 there is currently and I doubt >GP3 even if unbelievably realistc can improve on it immencly. Then again, >you'll disagree when I say that GPL's phsyics are over-exadurated at times. >Difficulty does not mean realism, I stress this time and tiem again. Believe me, driving on the limit in ANY car isn't easy. Remco

On Mon, 17 Apr 2000 18:25:20 +0100 GraDee <[email hidden]> wrote: % To be quite honest I feel personally that F1 2000 comes very close to GPL. In your opinion, but not even close in my opinion. % Phsyics wise that is. GPL seems to deal with frame-rates a little better, % but inmy case its only a little. I ahve a medium spec PC I suppose you'd % call it nowadays and like I said, GPLis only marginally ahead, F1 2000 at % times provides better FPS at the start of races. Maybe if you have all the graphics turned off and only draw 5- computer cars..... People are talking about perfect frame rates in F1-2000.... It turns out that they are happy with 20-22 fps.... Sorry, that's too slow in my book for sim racing. % Maybe I'm wrong but what gives GPL the edge in a lot of peoples minds is % that fact that it is so difficult and hard to master. Difficulty does make a % mroe realistic sim. It's not the "difficulty" that makes GPL great, it's the "complexity". The way the many parts of the physics meld into a "feeling". % When J./ Villeneive drove the Brabham around Monza last year, he could % barely drive it, yet he is an ex-world champion of current day F1. % Newer cars are much easier to drive obviously, making modrn day F1 sims that % bit easier, but to be totally honest, in my mind anyway, the phsyics of F1 % 2000 are the closest thing to modern day f1 there is currently and I doubt % GP3 even if unbelievably realistc can improve on it immencly. Then again, % you'll disagree when I say that GPL's phsyics are over-exadurated at times. % Difficulty does not mean realism, I stress this time and tiem again. Then I will stress it once again...... "complexity" not difficulty... <G> I think you would be pleasantly surprised if F12000 used GPL physics (plus aerodynamics which GPL basically doesn't have). Again think "complexity" not difficulty.... -- **************************** Michael E. Carver ************************* Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town. [email hidden] http://www.teleport.com/~mcarver =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./. [- < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

<[email hidden]> wrote in message news:8dfp0v$c5t$[email hidden]...

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> Amen! I haven't tried F1 2000 yet, but I have to agree that difficulty > does not equate to realism. I have tried NFSPU, and I find that to be > VERY realistic, IMO -- definitely at the same end of the spectrum as > GPL, AND you even get to see the driver's hands on the wheel . . . <G> > > GPL = RACING simulation > > NFSPU = DRIVING simulation > > Both are good simulators -- it just depends on what you want to > simulate, but, as you pointed out, "difficult" does not automatically > mean "realistic," and something does not necessarily have to be > difficult to be realistic. > > -- JB >

Well of course difficulty dosn't equal realism. Realism equals realism. What is realistic varies with what is being modeled. Difficulty does equal challenge however. Imagine Hockey without a goalie or basketball with the net half as high and twice the size. Michael Jordon wouldn't even have a chance to stand out against the field of average players. This is the precise reason DE hates restrictor plates. I makes it impossible for him to use his special talents to driver faster than lesser drivers, plus puts him in close proximity to those less skilled drivers increasing the chances that he'll end up in an accident that someone else caused. Of course this dosn't in any way mean that it's WRONG to play basketball with a low large net. For most of us it would make it a more enjoyable game, but it isn't the same game.

Well........ Ok, I did go on a bit, But GPL is as buggy as the next sim from what I see. It can be annoying. Vintook <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:MJRK4.9539$[email hidden]... > If you reread my post you will see that I didn't really talk about the > physics because I knew it would start a fiasco. The main point I am making > is that there are other things in GPL besides the physics which make it an > excellent simulation, ie the hands on the steering wheel, the raising ofthe > arm, and the turning of the head which you can see on all the otherdrivers > in the race in real time. > It was mentioned that RC2000 also has these but I haven't seen this gameso

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> I'll have to check it out. > Anyway, GPL shows that you can produce a superior quality product with no > bugs (yes I know there is a patch for it but I didn't feel it was buggy > before the patch or at least I never saw one) that will run very well on > today's equipment if you put your mind to it. Granted the game didn't sell > well but that was only because it was too realistic for most people. I do > agree that difficulty does not mean realism but even you pointed out that > when J./ Villeneive drove the Brabham around Monza last year, he could > barely drive it, yet he is an ex-world champion of current day F1. That > statement alone leads me to believe that GPL is fairly accurate. > > Vintook > >

> From what I read,the reason Villeneive had such a hard time was in his > own words "the damm car wont turn-in"He most likely would of needed > weeks to learn how much to slow down to properlly execute the turns > with the minimal grip the cars have. Yes, of course. My point was though....... J. Villenuve obviuosly finds driving a modern day F1 car (fairly) easy. He has makes a switch to a 1960's car and has difficulty driving it at all. Thats the same for us, we drive things like GP2 and making the switch to GPL is very hard because it is easier to drive GP2. It is the same situation now that we switch from GPL to F1 2000. Some people seem to remember when they switched to GPL, very difficult, but gradually learned to be fast. Now they jump into F1 2000 and in a week they are capable of decent lap times. This can be mistaken for when you switch from GP2 on the PC to F1'99 on the Playstation, give it 10 laps and your ready to set the AI to 100% and still win the WC in F1'99. Its so easy, its arcade. My point is that peole are confusing difficulty with realism, since sims like F1 2000 seem so much easier to adjust to after GPL, some people seem to have the feeling it is arcade-ish (or at least not too realistic) which I must totally disagree with.

> Then I will stress it once again...... "complexity" not difficulty... > <G> I think you would be pleasantly surprised if F12000 used GPL > physics (plus aerodynamics which GPL basically doesn't have). Again > think "complexity" not difficulty.... Isn't that what I was trying to explain?

"GraDee" <[email hidden]> wrote: >My point is that peole are confusing difficulty with realism, since sims >like F1 2000 seem so much easier to adjust to after GPL, some people seem to >have the feeling it is arcade-ish (or at least not too realistic) which I >must totally disagree with. Some part of F1 2000 seems easier then in real life. I think that when you put me in a real life F1 car, and let me drive away with full throttle, you can scrape me from the fence. It's a 800+Bhp car! That part is very easy in F1 2000. Same with exiting a turn, F1 2000 is too forgiving in that area. Remco

GPL too tough for you then? Of course diffuculty need not necessarily mean realism but in the case of GPL it is the most realistic racing sim yet programmed. Okay it takes time to get the hang of but all the drivers in Formula One today spent many years in lower formulae learning the ropes. I was at Brands Hatch in 1985 to see Johnny Herbert win the Formula Ford Festival, it was 10 years before he won his first GP. This has been the case with many of the top drivers, you don't just get in a GP car and win and any simulator that allowed you to do this wouldn't be a simulator would it now? Chris P.S. Herbert won the 1985 FF Festival after starting the first heat in last place, he worked his way into the top half to go through to the quarter finals and in the quarter and semi-finals worked his way up the order. Second & Third in the final were the late Roland Ratzenberger and some bloke named Damon Hill. In article <8dfhhf$nl2$[email hidden]>, "GraDee" <[email hidden]> wrote: >>Difficulty does not mean realism, I stress this time and tiemagain. > > * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet's Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet - Free!

> Some part of F1 2000 seems easier then in real life. I think that when > you put me in a real life F1 car, and let me drive away with full > throttle, you can scrape me from the fence. It's a 800+Bhp car! > That part is very easy in F1 2000. Same with exiting a turn, F1 2000 > is too forgiving in that area. I don't know, for sure driving with automatic gears it is very much forgiving. But thats an aid, of course its forgiving. I don't know if you are refering to it with or without manual gears. With manual gears its not so easy. Try taking off from a stand still. Accelerating from 1st-2nd gear around a bend (i.e. Silverstone). It ain't an easy, I can tell you that. Same goes for downshifting too early, not as hard on you as RS2 but it can upset you. I found a funny thing today, get teh car up to 7th gear and just drop to 1st, the cars doesn't stop revving, it just keeps going, you'll probably crash and if you have invincibility on you'll probably do infinite donuts.....kinda cool:-) Anyhoo, it may not be perfect , but its close enough for comfort. Should I add how in GPL you can drive manual gear without using the clutch? Infact not using it makes you faster IMO. Thats flawed but its close enough for most:-)

I totally agree with you. Why they don't put this hands ? framerate loss ? It's a joke. So many games have it (Toca2, Rally 2000, GPL...) so GP3 must have them and do an option to desable them if we have a slow PC. That is the solution. An other: put semi-hands static like the cockpit view n�2 in F1 2000. The hands don't move but we have the illusion because we just looking them a very few seconds when we are driving. There no excuses for GP3. Crammond, the sim master, is stupid or what ? What are the goal of the on/off graphics options in all PC games ? To adapt games at every PC performance. So Hands are easy to enable/disable , don't you think ? I'm so frustated because every sim has their huges bad aspects. When an editor will can release a perfect game with all the wishes of the players ? WHEN, When, When ?!?!? Vintook <[email hidden]> a �crit dans le message : YRGK4.10567$[email hidden]... > I've been reading allot of posts now about GP3 and others like F12000 and > marvel again at what GPL is. I just read that GP3 doesn't have hands onthe > steering wheel, too much of a framerate hit? GPL has them and it doesn't > affect the framerate all that much, if any and it really adds to thein-car > feeling. N4 is soon to come out, is it going to have hands on the wheeland > are you going to be able to see the drivers ahead raise their hands in the > car or even turn their heads? I bet not. Does any other driving sim have > these things? These little things are what made my jaw drop when I gotGPL, > and that was after I had just picked it up off the floor from the physics.I > just sit back and look at GPL and marvel at the quality of it. I don'tthink > anyone will be able to match it in the future (notice I didn't say thenear > future either). > > Vintook > > >

You didnt drive GP2 with the two options "Opposite lock help" (the important one) and throttle help (not much difference....GP2 was much harder over 30laps than GPL with opposite lock help off..Go and dust your copy of GP2 off turn that aid off in the control setting menu and do 30laps without spinning at a hotpace...GP2 was much harder 30laps at a good pace are so easy on GPL Try doing 125's to 126's in lotus @ zand...i could do them all day...Try doing 1:47 at Hockenhiem or 158's @ spa over 30laps ( the same apce race wise as 126;s zand) without spins without any aids or opposite lock help...You will find it 20times harder...Sorry if you say GP2 was easier than GPL you drove with some aids on.... Go and try it :))))).Youll find it a bitch..one millemetre to much throttle on no "opposite help" buddy your GONE!! Dave P GraDee wrote in message <8di7b9$ks1$[email hidden]>...

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>> From what I read,the reason Villeneive had such a hard time was in his >> own words "the damm car wont turn-in"He most likely would of needed >> weeks to learn how much to slow down to properlly execute the turns >> with the minimal grip the cars have. > >Yes, of course. > >My point was though....... >J. Villenuve obviuosly finds driving a modern day F1 car (fairly) easy. >He has makes a switch to a 1960's car and has difficulty driving it at all. > >Thats the same for us, we drive things like GP2 and making the switch to

GPL

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>is very hard because it is easier to drive GP2. >It is the same situation now that we switch from GPL to F1 2000. >Some people seem to remember when they switched to GPL, very difficult, but >gradually learned to be fast. Now they jump into F1 2000 and in a week they >are capable of decent lap times. > >This can be mistaken for when you switch from GP2 on the PC to F1'99 on the >Playstation, give it 10 laps and your ready to set the AI to 100% and still >win the WC in F1'99. Its so easy, its arcade. > >My point is that peole are confusing difficulty with realism, since sims >like F1 2000 seem so much easier to adjust to after GPL, some people seem

to >have the feeling it is arcade-ish (or at least not too realistic) which I >must totally disagree with. > > >

If your favorite sim depends on whether there are hands on the steering wheel or not.... I'm sorry but I perfectly understand Crammond when he thinks this is low priority stuff...... JoH

"GraDee" <[email hidden]> wrote:

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>> Some part of F1 2000 seems easier then in real life. I think that when >> you put me in a real life F1 car, and let me drive away with full >> throttle, you can scrape me from the fence. It's a 800+Bhp car! >> That part is very easy in F1 2000. Same with exiting a turn, F1 2000 >> is too forgiving in that area. > >I don't know, for sure driving with automatic gears it is very much >forgiving. But thats an aid, of course its forgiving. > >I don't know if you are refering to it with or without manual gears. With >manual gears its not so easy. Try taking off from a stand still. >Accelerating from 1st-2nd gear around a bend (i.e. Silverstone). It ain't an >easy, I can tell you that.

Manual. I just expect more drama when I floor the throttle... >Same goes for downshifting too early, not as hard on you as RS2 but it can >upset you. I found a funny thing today, get teh car up to 7th gear and just >drop to 1st, the cars doesn't stop revving, it just keeps going, you'll >probably crash and if you have invincibility on you'll probably do infinite >donuts.....kinda cool:-) I would like it if you could damage the engine this way... >Should I add how in GPL you can drive manual gear without using the clutch? >Infact not using it makes you faster IMO. Thats flawed but its close enough >for most:-) Since it never was intended that you should use the clutch for gearchanges, I can't see it as a fault... Remco

Michael E. Carver [email hidden] wrote in article < > > In your opinion, but not even close in my opinion. > Hi Mike, Seems that not only do we both have good taste in music, but also we both have good taste in sims.. :) I was also very disappointed with F1 2K and quite frankly, unless they practically re-build the whole damn thing, it will never be any more than a hot-lapper's toy. Cheers, Ron

> Manual. I just expect more drama when I floor the throttle...Really? Looking back down the grid wth 21 other cars heading straight for ya on't do it? :-) > I would like it if you could damage the engine this way...I have invicibility on at the time, not sure if you can, AFAIK there is engine damage, what else would cause it? > Since it never was intended that you should use the clutch for > gearchanges, I can't see it as a fault... Well if it wasn't that makes GPL *VERY* flawed.

In article <8dldq9$ou3$[email hidden]>, "GraDee" <[email hidden]> writes: >> Since it never was intended that you should use the clutch for >> gearchanges, I can't see it as a fault... > >Well if it wasn't that makes GPL *VERY* flawed. > Well, wasn't it a point of information that the real racers didn't use a clutch to shift? If they didn't, why would it be a *flaw* for us not to...? Eldred -- Tiger Stadium R.I.P. 1912-1999 Own Grand Prix Legends? Goto http://gpl.gamestats.com/vroc Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

> Well, wasn't it a point of information that the real racers didn't use aclutch > to shift? If they didn't, why would it be a *flaw* for us not to...? Seriously? I thought the real drivers DID use the clutch to shift, not nowadays but definitely ack in the '60's. And besides the fact that if you shift up in GPL without the clutch it gives a violent kick back which it doesn't without the clutch. I could be wrong but I thought there was a thread on this a while back!?!

Unsure about Grand Prix cars, but in the mid 60's to early 70's a rather common transmission mod, was called slick shifting. You removed every other tooth from the synchros. It allowed you to shift without the clutch. Very common mod to drag racing cars, and dirt track racers of that era. Having not raced other types of cars of that era, I cannot say. 2_Slow "EldredP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > In article <8dnei6$eg2$[email hidden]>, "GraDee" > <[email hidden]> writes: > > >> Well, wasn't it a point of information that the real racers didn'tuse a > >clutch > >> to shift? If they didn't, why would it be a *flaw* for us notto...? > > > >Seriously? I thought the real drivers DID use the clutch to shift,not > >nowadays but definitely ack in the '60's. > >And besides the fact that if you shift up in GPL without the clutchit gives > >a violent kick back which it doesn't without the clutch. > > > >I could be wrong but I thought there was a thread on this a whileback!?! > > If so, then I misunderstood the thread. I thought that they DIDN'Tuse the > clutch in the 60's. My bad...<g> > > Eldred > --

In article <8dnei6$eg2$[email hidden]>, "GraDee" <[email hidden]> writes:

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>> Well, wasn't it a point of information that the real racers didn't use a >clutch >> to shift? If they didn't, why would it be a *flaw* for us not to...? > >Seriously? I thought the real drivers DID use the clutch to shift, not >nowadays but definitely ack in the '60's. >And besides the fact that if you shift up in GPL without the clutch it gives >a violent kick back which it doesn't without the clutch. > >I could be wrong but I thought there was a thread on this a while back!?!

If so, then I misunderstood the thread. I thought that they DIDN'T use the clutch in the 60's. My bad...<g> Eldred -- Tiger Stadium R.I.P. 1912-1999 Own Grand Prix Legends? Goto http://gpl.gamestats.com/vroc Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.