Re: GPL and realism

Well, downshifting from 4th to 3rd at Paddock Hill without the clutch didn't seem to pose any problem, a corner where a balenced car is critical. The 'box felt just beautiful to use, I hope I wasn't doing it any damage :) "Matthew B.Knutsen" wrote:

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> I've got one word for you Rob; Dogrings! > > <g> > > Normally you won't need to clutch when going up through the box, this is no > problem if you do it right (heck you clutch so fast anyway), but there are > two major reasons to start clutching on downshifting: > > 1) When you get more than the odd 100 HP behind your back, gearboxes start > taking a severe beating > 2) When you get more rubber grabbing the road, things become *very* > noticeable. If you miss the revs ever so slightly, you'll have teeny lockups > of the rear wheels, upsetting the balance of the car, which may put you in > uncomfortable positions...so get the heel and toe in. Practice in road cars, > and you'll find it is natural in racecars. Smooth is fast, remember :) > > Oh, one more thing...you won't have mad mechanics like me running after you > throwing dead dogrings at you :-D > > Matt / heel'n toe fan > > > > > If I ever drive a 1967 F1 car, I'll let you know if this is possible... > > > > Harjan Brand wrote: > > > > > Us GPL fans are all very proud of our hunger for realism but yet almost > all > > > of us use one very big cheat when driving the car. There's nobody being > a > > > hotlapper using the clutch, by doing that we can do left foot braking at > > > almost every part of the track which is totally unrealistic. Even in > modern > > > racing left foot braking isn't a common good, it's used in F1, Rally and > on > > > ovals. > > > > > > So why do we do it? Because it's possible I presume. I would like Papy > to > > > offer a small patch which turns off the auto clutch and the auto blip so > we > > > could do some real heel and toeing (or inside out as I do it). This > would > > > really make things far more realistic and the times as well probably. > The > > > only problem is that not many people have more that two pedals, but for > > > those who have it would be great, don't you think? > > > > > > I would have rearrange my Logi brake pedal and F1 Sim throttle so I > could > > > heel and toe but that won't too much of a problem. I'll start using it > from > > > now on. > > > > > > Oh and anyone wondering about the status of my little sim it's going > very > > > slowly but I'm right on it. In about 5 years time I'll have a rolling > car. > > > > > > Harjan. > > > > -- > > Rob Swindells > > [Rob Swindells Racing] http://swindells.8m.com > > "Add life to your days, not days to your life." > > "The greatest substitute for talent is hard work." > > "Doing it, is better than watching it, is better than simulating it." > > "I may not be perfect, but parts of me are excellent." > > > >

-- Rob Swindells [Rob Swindells Racing] http://swindells.8m.com "Add life to your days, not days to your life." "The greatest substitute for talent is hard work." "Doing it, is better than watching it, is better than simulating it." "I may not be perfect, but parts of me are excellent."

I don't know if this was the case in 1967, but in my FFord it was fine to just bang up and down the 'box without using the clutch. In fact it was better to do it that way. Of course, you have to lift off the accelerator when you are shifting, as you do in GPL (in advanced damage modes). If I ever drive a 1967 F1 car, I'll let you know if this is possible... Harjan Brand wrote:

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> Us GPL fans are all very proud of our hunger for realism but yet almost all > of us use one very big cheat when driving the car. There's nobody being a > hotlapper using the clutch, by doing that we can do left foot braking at > almost every part of the track which is totally unrealistic. Even in modern > racing left foot braking isn't a common good, it's used in F1, Rally and on > ovals. > > So why do we do it? Because it's possible I presume. I would like Papy to > offer a small patch which turns off the auto clutch and the auto blip so we > could do some real heel and toeing (or inside out as I do it). This would > really make things far more realistic and the times as well probably. The > only problem is that not many people have more that two pedals, but for > those who have it would be great, don't you think? > > I would have rearrange my Logi brake pedal and F1 Sim throttle so I could > heel and toe but that won't too much of a problem. I'll start using it from > now on. > > Oh and anyone wondering about the status of my little sim it's going very > slowly but I'm right on it. In about 5 years time I'll have a rolling car. > > Harjan.

-- Rob Swindells [Rob Swindells Racing] http://swindells.8m.com "Add life to your days, not days to your life." "The greatest substitute for talent is hard work." "Doing it, is better than watching it, is better than simulating it." "I may not be perfect, but parts of me are excellent."

robswindells wrote:

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> > I don't know if this was the case in 1967, but in my FFord it was fine to just > bang up and down the 'box without using the clutch. In fact it was better to do > it that way. Of course, you have to lift off the accelerator when you are > shifting, as you do in GPL (in advanced damage modes). > > If I ever drive a 1967 F1 car, I'll let you know if this is possible... >

It's been a long time since I read the Four Wheel Drift that came with GPL, but I think that's exactly what's written there, for both up and downshifting. Yet watching the movie Grand Prix reveals some wonderful heel-and-toe practice along with the use of clutch. Go figure. -Gregor

Us GPL fans are all very proud of our hunger for realism but yet almost all of us use one very big cheat when driving the car. There's nobody being a hotlapper using the clutch, by doing that we can do left foot braking at almost every part of the track which is totally unrealistic. Even in modern racing left foot braking isn't a common good, it's used in F1, Rally and on ovals. So why do we do it? Because it's possible I presume. I would like Papy to offer a small patch which turns off the auto clutch and the auto blip so we could do some real heel and toeing (or inside out as I do it). This would really make things far more realistic and the times as well probably. The only problem is that not many people have more that two pedals, but for those who have it would be great, don't you think? I would have rearrange my Logi brake pedal and F1 Sim throttle so I could heel and toe but that won't too much of a problem. I'll start using it from now on. Oh and anyone wondering about the status of my little sim it's going very slowly but I'm right on it. In about 5 years time I'll have a rolling car. Harjan.

Gregor Veble <[email hidden]> wrote: : It's been a long time since I read the Four Wheel Drift that came with : GPL, but I think that's exactly what's written there, for both up and : downshifting. Yet watching the movie Grand Prix reveals some wonderful : heel-and-toe practice along with the use of clutch. Go figure. From memory - the '67 cars didn't need a clutch to shift gear but many were so cramped in the footwell that left foot braking wasn't possible. Not sure how accurate the movie GP was (wish I could find a copy) -- Richard G. Clegg Only the mind is waving Networks and Non-Linear Dynamics Group Dept. of Mathematics, Uni. of York UPDATED WWW: http://manor.york.ac.uk/

Harjan Brand wrote in message ...

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>Us GPL fans are all very proud of our hunger for realism but yet almost all >of us use one very big cheat when driving the car. There's nobody being a >hotlapper using the clutch, by doing that we can do left foot braking at >almost every part of the track which is totally unrealistic. Even in modern >racing left foot braking isn't a common good, it's used in F1, Rally and on >ovals. > >So why do we do it? Because it's possible I presume. I would like Papy to >offer a small patch which turns off the auto clutch and the auto blip so we >could do some real heel and toeing (or inside out as I do it). This would >really make things far more realistic and the times as well probably. The >only problem is that not many people have more that two pedals, but for >those who have it would be great, don't you think?

I agree with you that it would be a good thing to have the autoclutch disabled. However, I think there's only a couple of controlers out there that have a clutch incorporated right now as you mentioned. Once there's a lot of controlers with clutches Then turning the autoclutch off would help realism. In my opinion, untill the avalibility of clutch use is programmed in to many racing sims, I don't think controler manufacturers will make them a standerd issue. Then add in the transition where more and more Race Sims have the clutch avalibility, Controler manufacturers will only have a clutch expantion pack or add on feature. Again In my opinion, That transition period will last at least 4 years with the clutch being standerd issue with all controlers in the 5th year (2005 or 6). Then what about ware on the pots. Once the pot is worn down, during the peddel travel it'll get to the point where the clutch will give you a on/off then on/off then on/off effect making the lever clutch usless. Unless there's a penilty fo some kind such as grinding gears and tranny brake downs. One more issue would be changing gears while at speed. A button would work a whole lot quicker then a lever/peddel. So, to gain an extra 0.1 per shift with the benifit of over a second per lap... I'd set up a lever for starts and a button for at speed shifts. So, a manual clutch system would vertualy be worthless. :-( That's of course if there's no penilties for a suddon snap of power to the drive train with the on/off button configuration as mentioned above. just something to think about, Mike

Sorry Rob, but I don't quite get that, so you don't heel and toe with a non synchro meshed gearbox? Doesn't the gearbox make quite some noise? As far as I know the only way to downshift without a clutch is to match the revs with road speed and that's done by heel and toeing which isn't very effective without declutching as we can imagine. Even if you do use the clutch it's hard to shift down without heel and toeing, hence it's even smoother to do it in my synchro meshed road car. Most of us will remember the onboard pictures of Ukyo Katayama's feet during practise for the Grand Prix of Suzuka. His feet were all over the place, going down the box. I never use the clutch on the upshift in a Formula Ford but I have to on the downshift. Same for the Formula Palmer Audi, I thought. Although I'm not quite sure because I was having big time problem with the shifts. I'm 100% sure that GPL models an autoclutch on the downshift (not sure about the upshift) because you hear a auto rev blip on the downshift, and you can't blip safely without using the clutch. Without matching the two speeds you'll hear a lot of strange noises. Harjan. "robswindells" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > I don't know if this was the case in 1967, but in my FFord it was fine tojust > bang up and down the 'box without using the clutch. In fact it was betterto do

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> it that way. Of course, you have to lift off the accelerator when you are > shifting, as you do in GPL (in advanced damage modes). > > If I ever drive a 1967 F1 car, I'll let you know if this is possible... > > Harjan Brand wrote: > > > Us GPL fans are all very proud of our hunger for realism but yet almost

all > > of us use one very big cheat when driving the car. There's nobody beinga > > hotlapper using the clutch, by doing that we can do left foot braking at > > almost every part of the track which is totally unrealistic. Even inmodern > > racing left foot braking isn't a common good, it's used in F1, Rally andon > > ovals. > > > > So why do we do it? Because it's possible I presume. I would like Papyto > > offer a small patch which turns off the auto clutch and the auto blip sowe > > could do some real heel and toeing (or inside out as I do it). Thiswould > > really make things far more realistic and the times as well probably.The > > only problem is that not many people have more that two pedals, but for > > those who have it would be great, don't you think? > > > > I would have rearrange my Logi brake pedal and F1 Sim throttle so Icould > > heel and toe but that won't too much of a problem. I'll start using itfrom > > now on. > > > > Oh and anyone wondering about the status of my little sim it's goingvery > > slowly but I'm right on it. In about 5 years time I'll have a rollingcar.

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> > > > Harjan. > > -- > Rob Swindells > [Rob Swindells Racing] http://swindells.8m.com > "Add life to your days, not days to your life." > "The greatest substitute for talent is hard work." > "Doing it, is better than watching it, is better than simulating it." > "I may not be perfect, but parts of me are excellent." > >

Just about all the controllers out there have buttons...... We all wouldn't have to have a 3rd pedal, all we need is someone to make a no auto clutch patch, and the hardcore nuts would follow Md +) Mike Barlow wrote:

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> > Harjan Brand wrote in message ... > >Us GPL fans are all very proud of our hunger for realism but yet almost all > >of us use one very big cheat when driving the car. There's nobody being a > >hotlapper using the clutch, by doing that we can do left foot braking at > >almost every part of the track which is totally unrealistic. Even in modern > >racing left foot braking isn't a common good, it's used in F1, Rally and on > >ovals. > > > >So why do we do it? Because it's possible I presume. I would like Papy to > >offer a small patch which turns off the auto clutch and the auto blip so we > >could do some real heel and toeing (or inside out as I do it). This would > >really make things far more realistic and the times as well probably. The > >only problem is that not many people have more that two pedals, but for > >those who have it would be great, don't you think? > > I agree with you that it would be a good thing to have the autoclutch > disabled. However, I think there's only a couple of controlers out there > that have a clutch incorporated right now as you mentioned. Once there's a > lot of controlers with clutches Then turning the autoclutch off would help > realism. In my opinion, untill the avalibility of clutch use is programmed > in to many racing sims, I don't think controler manufacturers will make them > a standerd issue. Then add in the transition where more and more Race Sims > have the clutch avalibility, Controler manufacturers will only have a clutch > expantion pack or add on feature. Again In my opinion, That transition > period will last at least 4 years with the clutch being standerd issue with > all controlers in the 5th year (2005 or 6). Then what about ware on the > pots. Once the pot is worn down, during the peddel travel it'll get to the > point where the clutch will give you a on/off then on/off then on/off effect > making the lever clutch usless. Unless there's a penilty fo some kind such > as grinding gears and tranny brake downs. > > One more issue would be changing gears while at speed. A button would > work a whole lot quicker then a lever/peddel. So, to gain an extra 0.1 per > shift with the benifit of over a second per lap... I'd set up a lever for > starts and a button for at speed shifts. So, a manual clutch system would > vertualy be worthless. :-( That's of course if there's no penilties for a > suddon snap of power to the drive train with the on/off button configuration > as mentioned above. > > just something to think about, > Mike

robswindells <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > I don't know if this was the case in 1967, but in my FFord it was fine tojust > bang up and down the 'box without using the clutch. In fact it was betterto do > it that way. Of course, you have to lift off the accelerator when you are > shifting, as you do in GPL (in advanced damage modes). I've got one word for you Rob; Dogrings! <g> Normally you won't need to clutch when going up through the box, this is no problem if you do it right (heck you clutch so fast anyway), but there are two major reasons to start clutching on downshifting: 1) When you get more than the odd 100 HP behind your back, gearboxes start taking a severe beating 2) When you get more rubber grabbing the road, things become *very* noticeable. If you miss the revs ever so slightly, you'll have teeny lockups of the rear wheels, upsetting the balance of the car, which may put you in uncomfortable positions...so get the heel and toe in. Practice in road cars, and you'll find it is natural in racecars. Smooth is fast, remember :) Oh, one more thing...you won't have mad mechanics like me running after you throwing dead dogrings at you :-D Matt / heel'n toe fan > > If I ever drive a 1967 F1 car, I'll let you know if this is possible... > > Harjan Brand wrote: > > > Us GPL fans are all very proud of our hunger for realism but yet almostall > > of us use one very big cheat when driving the car. There's nobody beinga > > hotlapper using the clutch, by doing that we can do left foot braking at > > almost every part of the track which is totally unrealistic. Even inmodern > > racing left foot braking isn't a common good, it's used in F1, Rally andon > > ovals. > > > > So why do we do it? Because it's possible I presume. I would like Papyto > > offer a small patch which turns off the auto clutch and the auto blip sowe > > could do some real heel and toeing (or inside out as I do it). Thiswould > > really make things far more realistic and the times as well probably.The > > only problem is that not many people have more that two pedals, but for > > those who have it would be great, don't you think? > > > > I would have rearrange my Logi brake pedal and F1 Sim throttle so Icould > > heel and toe but that won't too much of a problem. I'll start using itfrom > > now on. > > > > Oh and anyone wondering about the status of my little sim it's goingvery > > slowly but I'm right on it. In about 5 years time I'll have a rollingcar.

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> > > > Harjan. > > -- > Rob Swindells > [Rob Swindells Racing] http://swindells.8m.com > "Add life to your days, not days to your life." > "The greatest substitute for talent is hard work." > "Doing it, is better than watching it, is better than simulating it." > "I may not be perfect, but parts of me are excellent." > >

On Mon, 17 Apr 2000 10:51:16 GMT, "Harjan Brand" <[email hidden]> wrote: >Us GPL fans are all very proud of our hunger for realism but yet almost all >of us use one very big cheat when driving the car. There's nobody being a >hotlapper using the clutch, by doing that we can do left foot braking at >almost every part of the track which is totally unrealistic. Even in modern >racing left foot braking isn't a common good, it's used in F1, Rally and on >ovals. What about us right foot drivers? I drive an automatic car in 'real life', so left foot breaking feels very unnatural. I sometimes use a combination of controllers if I really want to put the clutch to good use. I use the pedals on my MSFF wheel for breaking and acceleration, and I assign one of the movements on my MS Sidewinder Precision Pro (non USB) for the clutch. A digital clutch feels very unrealistic and so does the clutch control being maintained by hand, but considering the alternative it works pretty well. Alpha Omega E-Mail: [email hidden] ICQ: 70300233

I took a three day Jim Russel FF school, and at 6'2" with size 12 boots I was to cramped to heal and toe properly. I was upshifting without the clutch and down shifting with the clutch but with no throttle blip. It's a timing thing, it worked fine, the instructor knew what I was doing and was ok with it. [email hidden] (Harjan Brand) wrote in <d1FK4.2368$[email hidden]>:

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>Sorry Rob, but I don't quite get that, so you don't heel and toe with a non >synchro meshed gearbox? >Doesn't the gearbox make quite some noise? >As far as I know the only way to downshift without a clutch is to match the >revs with road speed and that's done by heel and toeing which isn't very >effective without declutching as we can imagine. Even if you do use the >clutch it's hard to shift down without heel and toeing, hence it's even >smoother to do it in my synchro meshed road car. > >Most of us will remember the onboard pictures of Ukyo Katayama's feet during >practise for the Grand Prix of Suzuka. His feet were all over the place, >going down the box. > >I never use the clutch on the upshift in a Formula Ford but I have to on the >downshift. Same for the Formula Palmer Audi, I thought. Although I'm not >quite sure because I was having big time problem with the shifts. > >I'm 100% sure that GPL models an autoclutch on the downshift (not sure about >the upshift) because you hear a auto rev blip on the downshift, and you >can't blip safely without using the clutch. Without matching the two speeds >you'll hear a lot of strange noises. > >Harjan. > > > >"robswindells" <[email hidden]> wrote in message >news:[email hidden]... >> I don't know if this was the case in 1967, but in my FFord it was fine to >just >> bang up and down the 'box without using the clutch. In fact it was better >to do >> it that way. Of course, you have to lift off the accelerator when you are >> shifting, as you do in GPL (in advanced damage modes). >>

-- Don Scurlock Vancouver,B.C.

[email hidden] (robswindells) wrote in <[email hidden]>: >Well, downshifting from 4th to 3rd at Paddock Hill without the clutch didn't >seem to pose any problem, a corner where a balenced car is critical. The 'box >felt just beautiful to use, I hope I wasn't doing it any damage :) The transmission doesn't know or care whether the clutch is used or not. What it does care about is not having any torque going through it when you are changing gears, and having the dogs of the two mating gears going at the same rpm. You can releave it of torque completely by timing your throttle release. Matching the speed of the mating gears on downshifts without using the clutch is dicey. Transmission designs vary, if it feels good, no clunks or jerks, it probably is. -- Don Scurlock Vancouver,B.C.

OK.. i don't drive too often in real life, no car.. I find I can't drive GPL with 1 foot, but i also found i can't drive a US automatic with 2 feet, well i can, but if i had any passengers they'd be bitchin about spilling their coffee when i hit the brakes +). Its different when there is actually resistance in the brake pedal. As I said i don't drive in reality much, and don't think it would take me that long to adjust. Md Harjan Brand wrote:

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> > Explain me, you drive an automatic car so left foot braking feels unnatural? > I think left foot braking is far easier in an automatic than in a manual > shifter. > With a manual gearbox you constantly have to decide whether not you'll be > left braking, with an automatic box you can do it all the time and there's > no need for heel and toeing. For me it;s the only pro about an automatic. > > "Alpha Omega" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > On Mon, 17 Apr 2000 10:51:16 GMT, "Harjan Brand" <[email hidden]> > > wrote: > > > > >Us GPL fans are all very proud of our hunger for realism but yet almost > all > > >of us use one very big cheat when driving the car. There's nobody being a > > >hotlapper using the clutch, by doing that we can do left foot braking at > > >almost every part of the track which is totally unrealistic. Even in > modern > > >racing left foot braking isn't a common good, it's used in F1, Rally and > on > > >ovals. > > > > What about us right foot drivers? I drive an automatic car in 'real > > life', so left foot breaking feels very unnatural. > > > > I sometimes use a combination of controllers if I really want to put > > the clutch to good use. I use the pedals on my MSFF wheel for breaking > > and acceleration, and I assign one of the movements on my MS > > Sidewinder Precision Pro (non USB) for the clutch. A digital clutch > > feels very unrealistic and so does the clutch control being maintained > > by hand, but considering the alternative it works pretty well. > > > > > > Alpha Omega > > E-Mail: [email hidden] > > ICQ: 70300233

Plus any competant instructor should rap the knuckles of anyone using the left foot to brake with an Automatic. If you are like most of us lazy Americans, you will rest your left foot on the brake pedal...What does this do? Wears out your brake pads and confuses the Hell out of anyone following you in traffic. dave henrie Martyn Danby wrote:

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> > OK.. i don't drive too often in real life, no car.. > > I find I can't drive GPL with 1 foot, but i also found i can't drive a > US automatic with 2 feet, well i can, but if i had any passengers they'd > be bitchin about spilling their coffee when i hit the brakes +). Its > different when there is actually resistance in the brake pedal. As I > said i don't drive in reality much, and don't think it would take me > that long to adjust. > > Md > > Harjan Brand wrote: > > > > Explain me, you drive an automatic car so left foot braking feels unnatural? > > I think left foot braking is far easier in an automatic than in a manual > > shifter. > > With a manual gearbox you constantly have to decide whether not you'll be > > left braking, with an automatic box you can do it all the time and there's > > no need for heel and toeing. For me it;s the only pro about an automatic. > > > > "Alpha Omega" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:[email hidden]... > > > On Mon, 17 Apr 2000 10:51:16 GMT, "Harjan Brand" <[email hidden]> > > > wrote: > > > > > > >Us GPL fans are all very proud of our hunger for realism but yet almost > > all > > > >of us use one very big cheat when driving the car. There's nobody being a > > > >hotlapper using the clutch, by doing that we can do left foot braking at > > > >almost every part of the track which is totally unrealistic. Even in > > modern > > > >racing left foot braking isn't a common good, it's used in F1, Rally and > > on > > > >ovals. > > > > > > What about us right foot drivers? I drive an automatic car in 'real > > > life', so left foot breaking feels very unnatural. > > > > > > I sometimes use a combination of controllers if I really want to put > > > the clutch to good use. I use the pedals on my MSFF wheel for breaking > > > and acceleration, and I assign one of the movements on my MS > > > Sidewinder Precision Pro (non USB) for the clutch. A digital clutch > > > feels very unrealistic and so does the clutch control being maintained > > > by hand, but considering the alternative it works pretty well. > > > > > > > > > Alpha Omega > > > E-Mail: [email hidden] > > > ICQ: 70300233

On Mon, 17 Apr 2000 20:15:04 GMT, Dave Henrie <[email hidden]> wrote: > Plus any competant instructor should rap the knuckles of anyone using >the left foot to brake with an Automatic. If you are like most of us >lazy Americans, you will rest your left foot on the brake pedal...What >does this do? Wears out your brake pads and confuses the Hell out of >anyone following you in traffic. >dave henrie what is the obsession of the US of using auto gears in cars. i'm not getting at the US too much here i just want to know why anyone would possibly prefer one over driving a car with a manual gearbox. the only time we use autos in europe is in dodgem cars isn't it ?? Rich

I've been to Jim Russell too, the international course while it was still at Donington. It's possible but it less smooth and it's hard to keep the balance right, and if you really brake late it almost impossible to do it, no matter how good your timing is. When you're really on the limit you'll just have to do it. "Don Scurlock" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:8F1973B69dscurlock@news... > I took a three day Jim Russel FF school, and at 6'2" with size 12 boots Iwas > to cramped to heal and toe properly. I was upshifting without the clutchand > down shifting with the clutch but with no throttle blip. It's a timingthing, > it worked fine, the instructor knew what I was doing and was ok with it. > > > > [email hidden] (Harjan Brand) wrote in<d1FK4.2368$[email hidden]>: > > >Sorry Rob, but I don't quite get that, so you don't heel and toe with anon > >synchro meshed gearbox? > >Doesn't the gearbox make quite some noise? > >As far as I know the only way to downshift without a clutch is to matchthe > >revs with road speed and that's done by heel and toeing which isn't very > >effective without declutching as we can imagine. Even if you do use the > >clutch it's hard to shift down without heel and toeing, hence it's even > >smoother to do it in my synchro meshed road car. > > > >Most of us will remember the onboard pictures of Ukyo Katayama's feetduring > >practise for the Grand Prix of Suzuka. His feet were all over the place, > >going down the box. > > > >I never use the clutch on the upshift in a Formula Ford but I have to onthe > >downshift. Same for the Formula Palmer Audi, I thought. Although I'm not > >quite sure because I was having big time problem with the shifts. > > > >I'm 100% sure that GPL models an autoclutch on the downshift (not sureabout > >the upshift) because you hear a auto rev blip on the downshift, and you > >can't blip safely without using the clutch. Without matching the twospeeds

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> >you'll hear a lot of strange noises. > > > >Harjan. > > > > > > > >"robswindells" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > >news:[email hidden]... > >> I don't know if this was the case in 1967, but in my FFord it was fine

to > >just > >> bang up and down the 'box without using the clutch. In fact it wasbetter > >to do > >> it that way. Of course, you have to lift off the accelerator when youare

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> >> shifting, as you do in GPL (in advanced damage modes). > >> > > > -- > Don Scurlock > Vancouver,B.C.

Explain me, you drive an automatic car so left foot braking feels unnatural? I think left foot braking is far easier in an automatic than in a manual shifter. With a manual gearbox you constantly have to decide whether not you'll be left braking, with an automatic box you can do it all the time and there's no need for heel and toeing. For me it;s the only pro about an automatic. "Alpha Omega" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > On Mon, 17 Apr 2000 10:51:16 GMT, "Harjan Brand" <[email hidden]> > wrote: > > >Us GPL fans are all very proud of our hunger for realism but yet almostall > >of us use one very big cheat when driving the car. There's nobody being a > >hotlapper using the clutch, by doing that we can do left foot braking at > >almost every part of the track which is totally unrealistic. Even inmodern > >racing left foot braking isn't a common good, it's used in F1, Rally andon

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> >ovals. > > What about us right foot drivers? I drive an automatic car in 'real > life', so left foot breaking feels very unnatural. > > I sometimes use a combination of controllers if I really want to put > the clutch to good use. I use the pedals on my MSFF wheel for breaking > and acceleration, and I assign one of the movements on my MS > Sidewinder Precision Pro (non USB) for the clutch. A digital clutch > feels very unrealistic and so does the clutch control being maintained > by hand, but considering the alternative it works pretty well. > > > Alpha Omega > E-Mail: [email hidden] > ICQ: 70300233

Ever drive over here in north america? Ever try readin a map, eatin a big mac and shiftin at the same time!!! +) Its called the grid system, on the highway they are straight and booring in most areas. Personally i prefer a stick, but hey no car at the moment, and the GPZ needs a few too many $$ .... Md Rich wrote:

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> > On Mon, 17 Apr 2000 20:15:04 GMT, Dave Henrie <[email hidden]> wrote: > > > Plus any competant instructor should rap the knuckles of anyone using > >the left foot to brake with an Automatic. If you are like most of us > >lazy Americans, you will rest your left foot on the brake pedal...What > >does this do? Wears out your brake pads and confuses the Hell out of > >anyone following you in traffic. > >dave henrie > > what is the obsession of the US of using auto gears in cars. i'm not > getting at the US too much here i just want to know why anyone would > possibly prefer one over driving a car with a manual gearbox. > > the only time we use autos in europe is in dodgem cars isn't it ?? > > Rich

Dave Henrie <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > Ever try to stop at an icy/snow-covered intersection on a cold morning > when the autochoke has the engine rpms sky high and the back wheels > spinning even with the brakes applied? > dave henrie >Uh... first thing you learn in a decent driving school in Canada (if you are learning on an automatic) is how to slap it into neutral without a second thought. It was a natural reaction in the winter. Of course, I would never volutarily go back to an automatic, but they're not soooo bad. Stephen

> I left foot brake and clutchless shift my manual street car all the time.I > NEVER use my right foot on the brake in an automatic. You WHAT??? You shift in a manual transmission car without using the clutch? I bet you only drive rental cars

Rich <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> On Mon, 17 Apr 2000 20:15:04 GMT, Dave Henrie <[email hidden]> wrote: > > > Plus any competant instructor should rap the knuckles of anyone using > >the left foot to brake with an Automatic. If you are like most of us > >lazy Americans, you will rest your left foot on the brake pedal...What > >does this do? Wears out your brake pads and confuses the Hell out of > >anyone following you in traffic. > >dave henrie > > what is the obsession of the US of using auto gears in cars. i'm not > getting at the US too much here i just want to know why anyone would > possibly prefer one over driving a car with a manual gearbox. > > the only time we use autos in europe is in dodgem cars isn't it ?? >

A torque converter can handle the output of a rorting, snorting V8. Often the manufacturers didn't have a manual tranny that could last more than a year on the back end of their latest, greatest V8. Several European manufacturers had to source an American automatic transmission when they started using large V8s (this is 20 years ago, mind you). One example that comes to mind is the Rover 3500. It ate manual gearboxes for breakfast, but was perfectly happy with the automatic. Turbos can benefit from an automatic, as the "slack" in the system allows the turbos to keep spooling during shifts. The Buick Grand National was an amazing monster of a turbo car - in a straight line - in the late 80s (and an even nastier derivative was the GMC Typhoon, a "sport utility" that could out accelerate a Ferrari and was a virtual equal to the Porsche 959 in the wet just because of its gobs of turbo-powered torque, AWD and the auto-box). Second is the nature of driving in North America. Either you are cruising a motorway, or you are stuck in traffic on a motorway. I oversimplify, but for the most part it's true. Growing up in Canada, almost any destination involved travelling on the highway. In Switzerland, half my driving is small, secondary roads. And after a few years of living through epic traffic jams (queues, staus) on my daily commute in Toronto with a "sport" clutch in my late, lamented GTi, I could see the possible advantage of an autobox. I won't buy one, but I could see the use of it. Stephen

Harjan Brand wrote:

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> Explain me, you drive an automatic car so left foot braking feels unnatural? > I think left foot braking is far easier in an automatic than in a manual > shifter. > With a manual gearbox you constantly have to decide whether not you'll be > left braking, with an automatic box you can do it all the time and there's > no need for heel and toeing. For me it;s the only pro about an automatic. >

I read a lot of "heel and toeing", even think I see it happening in "Grand Prix" (the frankenheimer movie) too but I don't really understand it. Could somebody of you goeroes explain what this heel-and-toeing technique really is and what it's advantage over "normal" driving is? -- Jan Hovius

In article <[email hidden]>, Alan Orton <[email hidden]> writes:

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>I would love to see this option, Harjan. It would really help practice >the heel toe with out being on the city streets. I would have to make my >own pedals so they are just like my real car. It would be fun though. :) >Also Online if the Host could turn off Auto clutching to force everyone >to heel toe it would be great. It would also be great if there was drive >train wear and damage modeled as well for the people who think they >don't need to use a clutch or blip the throttle. ;) >

You think there are too few drivers in VROC *now*...<g> Eldred -- Tiger Stadium R.I.P. 1912-1999 Own Grand Prix Legends? Goto http://gpl.gamestats.com/vroc Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

In article <[email hidden]>, Rich <[email hidden]> writes:

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>> Plus any competant instructor should rap the knuckles of anyone using >>the left foot to brake with an Automatic. If you are like most of us >>lazy Americans, you will rest your left foot on the brake pedal...What >>does this do? Wears out your brake pads and confuses the Hell out of >>anyone following you in traffic. >>dave henrie > >what is the obsession of the US of using auto gears in cars. i'm not >getting at the US too much here i just want to know why anyone would >possibly prefer one over driving a car with a manual gearbox. > >the only time we use autos in europe is in dodgem cars isn't it ?? > >Rich

I had a manual transmission car once. After trying to drive it in rush hour stop-n-go traffic, the novelty wore off REAL quick.... Never again.... I don't know why anyone would possibly prefer the manual...<g> Eldred -- Tiger Stadium R.I.P. 1912-1999 Own Grand Prix Legends? Goto http://gpl.gamestats.com/vroc Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

In article <jRJK4.2416$[email hidden]>, "Harjan Brand" <[email hidden]> writes: >Explain me, you drive an automatic car so left foot braking feels unnatural? >I think left foot braking is far easier in an automatic than in a manual >shifter. >With a manual gearbox you constantly have to decide whether not you'll be >left braking, with an automatic box you can do it all the time and there's >no need for heel and toeing. For me it;s the only pro about an automatic. Even though you didn't ask me, I can give you an answer. People who drive automatics are taught to use ONE foot. So, after years of not using the left foot, it's not very co-ordinated... I, for one, can't figure it out... Eldred -- Tiger Stadium R.I.P. 1912-1999 Own Grand Prix Legends? Goto http://gpl.gamestats.com/vroc Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

I don't agree, I consider myself a very competent driver and anytime I drive a automatic I use my left foot. I'm used to left foot braking, so for me there's no problem in doing it. People who aren't used to braking with their left foot should not give it a try in their road car. "Dave Henrie" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> Plus any competant instructor should rap the knuckles of anyone using > the left foot to brake with an Automatic. If you are like most of us > lazy Americans, you will rest your left foot on the brake pedal...What > does this do? Wears out your brake pads and confuses the Hell out of > anyone following you in traffic. > dave henrie > > Martyn Danby wrote: > > > > OK.. i don't drive too often in real life, no car.. > > > > I find I can't drive GPL with 1 foot, but i also found i can't drive a > > US automatic with 2 feet, well i can, but if i had any passengers they'd > > be bitchin about spilling their coffee when i hit the brakes +). Its > > different when there is actually resistance in the brake pedal. As I > > said i don't drive in reality much, and don't think it would take me > > that long to adjust. > > > > Md > > > > Harjan Brand wrote: > > > > > > Explain me, you drive an automatic car so left foot braking feels

unnatural? > > > I think left foot braking is far easier in an automatic than in amanual > > > shifter. > > > With a manual gearbox you constantly have to decide whether not you'llbe > > > left braking, with an automatic box you can do it all the time andthere's > > > no need for heel and toeing. For me it;s the only pro about anautomatic.

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> > > > > > "Alpha Omega" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > news:[email hidden]... > > > > On Mon, 17 Apr 2000 10:51:16 GMT, "Harjan Brand" <[email hidden]> > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > >Us GPL fans are all very proud of our hunger for realism but yet

almost > > > all > > > > >of us use one very big cheat when driving the car. There's nobodybeing a > > > > >hotlapper using the clutch, by doing that we can do left footbraking at > > > > >almost every part of the track which is totally unrealistic. Evenin > > > modern > > > > >racing left foot braking isn't a common good, it's used in F1,Rally and

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> > > on > > > > >ovals. > > > > > > > > What about us right foot drivers? I drive an automatic car in 'real > > > > life', so left foot breaking feels very unnatural. > > > > > > > > I sometimes use a combination of controllers if I really want to put > > > > the clutch to good use. I use the pedals on my MSFF wheel for

breaking > > > > and acceleration, and I assign one of the movements on my MS > > > > Sidewinder Precision Pro (non USB) for the clutch. A digital clutch > > > > feels very unrealistic and so does the clutch control beingmaintained > > > > by hand, but considering the alternative it works pretty well. > > > > > > > > > > > > Alpha Omega > > > > E-Mail: [email hidden] > > > > ICQ: 70300233

I would love to see this option, Harjan. It would really help practice the heel toe with out being on the city streets. I would have to make my own pedals so they are just like my real car. It would be fun though. :) Also Online if the Host could turn off Auto clutching to force everyone to heel toe it would be great. It would also be great if there was drive train wear and damage modeled as well for the people who think they don't need to use a clutch or blip the throttle. ;) Harjan Brand wrote:

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> > Us GPL fans are all very proud of our hunger for realism but yet almost all > of us use one very big cheat when driving the car. There's nobody being a > hotlapper using the clutch, by doing that we can do left foot braking at > almost every part of the track which is totally unrealistic. Even in modern > racing left foot braking isn't a common good, it's used in F1, Rally and on > ovals. > > So why do we do it? Because it's possible I presume. I would like Papy to > offer a small patch which turns off the auto clutch and the auto blip so we > could do some real heel and toeing (or inside out as I do it). This would > really make things far more realistic and the times as well probably. The > only problem is that not many people have more that two pedals, but for > those who have it would be great, don't you think? > > I would have rearrange my Logi brake pedal and F1 Sim throttle so I could > heel and toe but that won't too much of a problem. I'll start using it from > now on. > > Oh and anyone wondering about the status of my little sim it's going very > slowly but I'm right on it. In about 5 years time I'll have a rolling car. > > Harjan.

you can shift without the clutch in a road car too, it bolloxs the gearbox eventually though ;o) "robswindells" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > I don't know if this was the case in 1967, but in my FFord it was fine tojust > bang up and down the 'box without using the clutch. In fact it was betterto do

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> it that way. Of course, you have to lift off the accelerator when you are > shifting, as you do in GPL (in advanced damage modes). > > If I ever drive a 1967 F1 car, I'll let you know if this is possible... > > Harjan Brand wrote: > > > Us GPL fans are all very proud of our hunger for realism but yet almost

all > > of us use one very big cheat when driving the car. There's nobody beinga > > hotlapper using the clutch, by doing that we can do left foot braking at > > almost every part of the track which is totally unrealistic. Even inmodern > > racing left foot braking isn't a common good, it's used in F1, Rally andon > > ovals. > > > > So why do we do it? Because it's possible I presume. I would like Papyto > > offer a small patch which turns off the auto clutch and the auto blip sowe > > could do some real heel and toeing (or inside out as I do it). Thiswould > > really make things far more realistic and the times as well probably.The > > only problem is that not many people have more that two pedals, but for > > those who have it would be great, don't you think? > > > > I would have rearrange my Logi brake pedal and F1 Sim throttle so Icould > > heel and toe but that won't too much of a problem. I'll start using itfrom > > now on. > > > > Oh and anyone wondering about the status of my little sim it's goingvery > > slowly but I'm right on it. In about 5 years time I'll have a rollingcar.

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> > > > Harjan. > > -- > Rob Swindells > [Rob Swindells Racing] http://swindells.8m.com > "Add life to your days, not days to your life." > "The greatest substitute for talent is hard work." > "Doing it, is better than watching it, is better than simulating it." > "I may not be perfect, but parts of me are excellent." > >

It's a Hollywood thing. Havn't you ever seen them films where there are about 50 gear changes to the mile as a car drives down a road at constant speed <G> MS "Rich" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> On Mon, 17 Apr 2000 20:15:04 GMT, Dave Henrie <[email hidden]> wrote: > > > Plus any competant instructor should rap the knuckles of anyone using > >the left foot to brake with an Automatic. If you are like most of us > >lazy Americans, you will rest your left foot on the brake pedal...What > >does this do? Wears out your brake pads and confuses the Hell out of > >anyone following you in traffic. > >dave henrie > > what is the obsession of the US of using auto gears in cars. i'm not > getting at the US too much here i just want to know why anyone would > possibly prefer one over driving a car with a manual gearbox. > > the only time we use autos in europe is in dodgem cars isn't it ?? > > Rich

Your right you would have to have a realistic shifter like the Act Labs, even maybe in the future a FF shifter where it may not go into gear or even pop out on it's own during certain events. About the Brakes, couldn't you use a hydraulic system from a bicycle and just let the caliper squeeze against a piece of steel. You could disconnect the pedal from the hydraulic system to calibrate the pots though. What I would like to see is a reduction gear attached to the pot on my wheel so I could turn the wheel a full revolution or even 2 full turns like a real car. I just want it as close to real life as possible. It would be great practice for real life at a much lower cost then renting a track or burning gas all day. Jan Verschueren wrote:

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> > Not an option until we can buy a set of pedals, including a clutch, with a > pressure (as opposed to travel) sensitive brake and correctly positioned > pedals for less than $100, IMO. Probably would need support for a "true" > shifter as well (think Act Labs has one)... would be hard to time the blip > if you're not moving the gear lever by hand methinks. > > I think right foot brake with auto clutch and blip works very well. Can't > get used to left foot braking anyway, but if the hardware were available > "off the shelf" I'd certainly give it a go. > > Jan. > =--- > Harjan Brand <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:E0CK4.2342$[email hidden]... > > Us GPL fans are all very proud of our hunger for realism but yet almost > all > > of us use one very big cheat when driving the car. <Snip>

Not an option until we can buy a set of pedals, including a clutch, with a pressure (as opposed to travel) sensitive brake and correctly positioned pedals for less than $100, IMO. Probably would need support for a "true" shifter as well (think Act Labs has one)... would be hard to time the blip if you're not moving the gear lever by hand methinks. I think right foot brake with auto clutch and blip works very well. Can't get used to left foot braking anyway, but if the hardware were available "off the shelf" I'd certainly give it a go. Jan. =--- Harjan Brand <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:E0CK4.2342$[email hidden]... > Us GPL fans are all very proud of our hunger for realism but yet almostall > of us use one very big cheat when driving the car. <Snip>

Not to mention it's "rat bastard hard" <excuse the expression>, especially in a fuel injected car (engine management works against you). I've been trying it myself and I can sort of do it going up the box from 1st to 4th (5th is out of the question, can't even shift that smoothly using the clutch). Downshifts are unpractical as you need to be very precise to be able to engage the gear, which leads to a lot of time lost searching for the correct revs in neutral. Something you can do while coasting, but out of the question when braking for a corner. Jan. =--- Tim Wheatley <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:yJPK4.14124$[email hidden]... > you can shift without the clutch in a road car too, it bolloxs the gearbox > eventually though ;o) > > > <snip>

In Europe we are taught to brake with our right foot as well, we only use the left foot for the clutch. So for most people it's almost impossible if they try to learn with their left foot (ask my mother who tried it on a deserted road, there are still two black lines). I did it from the first moment I got my license and have no problem at all. I don't do it all the time because when you have to brake to a halt I have to switch from left to right foot in to be able to use the clutch. With an automatic you don't have that problem. "EldredP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > In article <jRJK4.2416$[email hidden]>, "Harjan Brand" > <[email hidden]> writes: > > >Explain me, you drive an automatic car so left foot braking feelsunnatural? > >I think left foot braking is far easier in an automatic than in a manual > >shifter. > >With a manual gearbox you constantly have to decide whether not you'll be > >left braking, with an automatic box you can do it all the time andthere's > >no need for heel and toeing. For me it;s the only pro about an automatic. > > Even though you didn't ask me, I can give you an answer. People who drive > automatics are taught to use ONE foot. So, after years of not using theleft

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> foot, it's not very co-ordinated... I, for one, can't figure it out... > > Eldred > -- > Tiger Stadium R.I.P. 1912-1999 > Own Grand Prix Legends? Goto http://gpl.gamestats.com/vroc > > Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats

you > with experience... > Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

I'll give it a try, in a racing car you go down the box under braking (so from 5 to 2 is 5-4-3-2). While you brake and go from 5-4 (and from 4-3 and 3-2) you're gearbox will be turning faster than your engine revs (when you brake the revs go down because you don't give any throttle), with a non syncro meshed gearbox it will be very hard to get the gear cogs to get into each other. Furthermore you'll have excessive engine braking which isn't good for the balance (this is an important reason for road users to use heel and toeing). So while braking with one part of your foot you apply quite some throttle with the other to keep the revs up. A nice way in a road car to try it at a slow speed is to brake and shift to first gear at about 20k, without heel and toeing the shift will be very hard (don't push through it) with some nice heel and toeing it will work just fine. In order to know the revs you won't to make just check the revs you're doing in first gear at 20k, you'll need just a very bit more in order to make a supersmooth downshift. "Jan Hovius" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > Harjan Brand wrote: > > > Explain me, you drive an automatic car so left foot braking feelsunnatural? > > I think left foot braking is far easier in an automatic than in a manual > > shifter. > > With a manual gearbox you constantly have to decide whether not you'llbe > > left braking, with an automatic box you can do it all the time andthere's > > no need for heel and toeing. For me it;s the only pro about anautomatic. > > > > I read a lot of "heel and toeing", even think I see it happening in "Grand > Prix" (the frankenheimer movie) too but I don't really understand it.Could > somebody of you goeroes explain what this heel-and-toeing technique reallyis

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> and what it's advantage over "normal" driving is? > > > > -- > Jan Hovius > > >

Jan Hovius <[email hidden]> wrote:

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>Harjan Brand wrote: > >> Explain me, you drive an automatic car so left foot braking feels unnatural? >> I think left foot braking is far easier in an automatic than in a manual >> shifter. >> With a manual gearbox you constantly have to decide whether not you'll be >> left braking, with an automatic box you can do it all the time and there's >> no need for heel and toeing. For me it;s the only pro about an automatic. >> > >I read a lot of "heel and toeing", even think I see it happening in "Grand >Prix" (the frankenheimer movie) too but I don't really understand it. Could >somebody of you goeroes explain what this heel-and-toeing technique really is >and what it's advantage over "normal" driving is?

In a non-synchronized gearbox you need to "blip" the throttle so the gears have the same speed before you change the gear. If you don't, you hear a scary noise.... <g> This is mostly done while downshifting, and that's something you do when you're braking. So, you need to press the brake, throttle and clutch at the same time, but you only have 2 feet. In this case you use the left foot for clutching, the right foot toe for braking, and the right foot heel for the throttle. Remco

Alan Orton <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > Your right you would have to have a realistic shifter like the Act Labs, > even maybe in the future a FF shifter where it may not go into gear or > even pop out on it's own during certain events. That would be absolutely amazing. > About the Brakes, couldn't you use a hydraulic system from a bicycle > and just let the caliper squeeze against a piece of steel. You could > disconnect the pedal from the hydraulic system to calibrate the pots > though. No, in that case you're still travel sensitive (pot). I'd like to see a system using some sort of pressure transducer which translates the amount of force I excert on the pedal to a reading for the game. I.e. where I don't have to move my leg to modulate the brakes and can position the pedal in a way which allows me to blip the throttle without nescessarily letting up on the brakes (as is the case using my Nascar Pro pedals). Besides, you're talking home build again. Stop it already you guys. I'm an electronics engineer... mechanical stuff spooks me. ;-) > What I would like to see is a reduction gear attached to the pot on my > wheel so I could turn the wheel a full revolution or even 2 full turns > like a real car. I just want it as close to real life as possible. > It would be great practice for real life at a much lower cost then > renting a track or burning gas all day. For sure, not mention the cost of repeatedly leaving the black stuff. ;-) Jan. =--- <Snip>

Yes... Pittsburgh, PA to be a bit more precise. I figured that's what my knees are for. It's an art form. Big Mac in mouth, map on lap, left hand on wheel, shift with right hand and left foot, map back in left hand, Big Mac in right hand, left knee controls steering wheel, right foot on gas... throw in Super-sized fries and Sprite and it starts to get even more interesting... works beautifully for me! :-) I just don't feel like I'm "driving" with an automatic. We have a 2000 Honda Odyssey mini-van for the family that's an automatic, but for my beater car going back and forth to work I couldn't live without my 1990 Toyota Camry V6 5-speed! Being that I never left foot brake in my car (er... I need that for the clutch), it took me a little while to get use to left foot braking in sim racing. Now it's natural for me to left foot brake in racing sims. However, when I try it in the mini-van I've found the pressure and sensitivity to be quite different. Needless to say, the family finds it a bit painful too! Dave Ericson MomoBoy online JDB Racing Martyn Danby wrote:

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> > Ever drive over here in north america? Ever try readin a map, eatin a > big mac and shiftin at the same time!!! +) > > Its called the grid system, on the highway they are straight and booring > in most areas. > > Personally i prefer a stick, but hey no car at the moment, and the GPZ > needs a few too many $$ .... > > Md > > Rich wrote: > > > > On Mon, 17 Apr 2000 20:15:04 GMT, Dave Henrie <[email hidden]> wrote: > > > > > Plus any competant instructor should rap the knuckles of anyone using > > >the left foot to brake with an Automatic. If you are like most of us > > >lazy Americans, you will rest your left foot on the brake pedal...What > > >does this do? Wears out your brake pads and confuses the Hell out of > > >anyone following you in traffic. > > >dave henrie > > > > what is the obsession of the US of using auto gears in cars. i'm not > > getting at the US too much here i just want to know why anyone would > > possibly prefer one over driving a car with a manual gearbox. > > > > the only time we use autos in europe is in dodgem cars isn't it ?? > > > > Rich

On Mon, 17 Apr 2000 19:45:19 GMT, "Harjan Brand" <[email hidden]> wrote: >Explain me, you drive an automatic car so left foot braking feels unnatural? >I think left foot braking is far easier in an automatic than in a manual >shifter. >With a manual gearbox you constantly have to decide whether not you'll be >left braking, with an automatic box you can do it all the time and there's >no need for heel and toeing. For me it;s the only pro about an automatic. I'm not sure about the rest of the world, but over here (UK) you're not allowed to use your left foot at all when taking your test in an automatic vehicle. Right foot only. You must have been tested in a manual car, but drive an automatic when it suits you right? Ever actually been tested in an automatic? I tried using my left foot to brake earlier on today. It was a horrible feeling. There isn't even enough room for both my legs to sit together to control both the pedals. Of course, the best thing about using your right foot for the pedals is that it leaves your left foot free to tab to music on the stereo. :-) Alpha Omega E-Mail: [email hidden] ICQ: 70300233

On Mon, 17 Apr 2000 22:28:46 +0200, Rich <[email hidden]> wrote: >what is the obsession of the US of using auto gears in cars. i'm not >getting at the US too much here i just want to know why anyone would >possibly prefer one over driving a car with a manual gearbox. > >the only time we use autos in europe is in dodgem cars isn't it ?? I'm the complete opposite. I can't understand why anybody would choose to drive a manual car when you have the option to drive an automatic. Why put yourself through the extra hassle of shifting gears and popping the clutch? You don't gain much out of it. Alpha Omega E-Mail: [email hidden] ICQ: 70300233

On Mon, 17 Apr 2000 22:17:06 GMT, "Harjan Brand" <[email hidden]> wrote: >I don't agree, I consider myself a very competent driver and anytime I drive >a automatic I use my left foot. I'm used to left foot braking, so for me >there's no problem in doing it. > >People who aren't used to braking with their left foot should not give it a >try in their road car. There must be a reason why left foot breaking is not allowed by the highway code in an automatic car in this country. Otherwise, wouldn't they leave it up to the driver to decide which foot he uses? Alpha Omega E-Mail: [email hidden] ICQ: 70300233

Gimme a stick anyday. My son learned to drive an auto in school and he had a hell of a time learning to drive a clutch stick combo. But he finally got it figured out. This is one Yank who would never buy an automatic.... Ever try to stop at an icy/snow-covered intersection on a cold morning when the autochoke has the engine rpms sky high and the back wheels spinning even with the brakes applied? dave henrie Alpha Omega wrote:

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> > On Mon, 17 Apr 2000 22:28:46 +0200, Rich > <[email hidden]> wrote: > > >what is the obsession of the US of using auto gears in cars. i'm not > >getting at the US too much here i just want to know why anyone would > >possibly prefer one over driving a car with a manual gearbox. > > > >the only time we use autos in europe is in dodgem cars isn't it ?? > > I'm the complete opposite. I can't understand why anybody would choose > to drive a manual car when you have the option to drive an automatic. > > Why put yourself through the extra hassle of shifting gears and > popping the clutch? You don't gain much out of it. > > Alpha Omega > E-Mail: [email hidden] > ICQ: 70300233

"Dave Henrie" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> Plus any competant instructor should rap the knuckles of anyone using > the left foot to brake with an Automatic. If you are like most of us > lazy Americans, you will rest your left foot on the brake pedal...What > does this do? Wears out your brake pads and confuses the Hell out of > anyone following you in traffic. > dave henrie >

Nonesense. Any competant instructor should rap the knuckles of anyone resting their left foot on the brake pedal, or clutch in a manual. The only competant argument for not left foot braking an auto is that a driver might get confused when switching back and forth from a manual. Left foot braking is perfectly ok with either form of tranny. I left foot brake and clutchless shift my manual street car all the time. I NEVER use my right foot on the brake in an automatic. I use the deadpedal for my resting left foot. That's what it's there for.

"Harjan Brand" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:E0CK4.2342$[email hidden]... > Us GPL fans are all very proud of our hunger for realism but yet almostall > of us use one very big cheat when driving the car. There's nobody being a > hotlapper using the clutch, by doing that we can do left foot braking at > almost every part of the track which is totally unrealistic. Even inmodern > racing left foot braking isn't a common good, it's used in F1, Rally andon > ovals. > > So why do we do it? Because it's possible I presume. I would like Papy to > offer a small patch which turns off the auto clutch and the auto blip sowe

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> could do some real heel and toeing (or inside out as I do it). This would > really make things far more realistic and the times as well probably. The > only problem is that not many people have more that two pedals, but for > those who have it would be great, don't you think? > > I would have rearrange my Logi brake pedal and F1 Sim throttle so I could > heel and toe but that won't too much of a problem. I'll start using it

from

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> now on. > > Oh and anyone wondering about the status of my little sim it's going very > slowly but I'm right on it. In about 5 years time I'll have a rolling car. > > Harjan. > >

With the clutch materials used at the time the clutch was the most likely part of the drivetrain to fail, every use shortened its life and entailed the risk of burning it our completely. The drivers, for the most part, avoided it's use during a race, saving it only for when it was really neccessary. This is still true today in many large Sedan classes, such as Trans Am. Shifting clutchless is perfectly realistic. I do it in my street Honda CRX all the time. I might quote from Carrol Smith's Drive to Win: "After you get good at shifting the Non-sycncro racing car you may notice that your are not depressing the clutch all the way. The truth of the matter is that most racing drivers don't - they just sort of jab at it with the left foot. It is therefore a relatively small step for the "skilled" driver to stop using the clutch at all........... The question of clutch use is a matter of personal preference and confidence. My opinion is that if the driver is skilled enough and confident enought to learn how to do it well, he (or she) will have a performance advantage- at least in short races." Among modern drivers there are those who disagree, with *modern* cars. Danny Sullivan uses the clutch, but says we's never double clutched in his life. Bryan Herta always uses the clutch and double clutches, everytime. But Bryan dosn't drive cars where the clutch is the weak link. Left foot braking is another realism story, the only problem being the steering shaft passing directly through the drivers feet made it difficult to move the left foot over to the brake pedal. There WERE cars and drivers who put the brake pedal on the left and the clutch in the middle however. Pre war this was even common.

....because it's called driving, unless you're in a traffic jam. Marty Alpha Omega wrote: > Why put yourself through the extra hassle of shifting gears and > popping the clutch? You don't gain much out of it.

What country is that? And how would anyone know what foot you are using to brake? Marty Alpha Omega wrote: > There must be a reason why left foot breaking is not allowed by the > highway code in an automatic car in this country. Otherwise, wouldn't > they leave it up to the driver to decide which foot he uses? >

I've heard there have been cases of Big rig (US tractor trailers) swinging into the city one day only to have the clutch seize up on him, due to lack of use! Md "�artijn" wrote:

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> > > I left foot brake and clutchless shift my manual street car all the time. > I > > NEVER use my right foot on the brake in an automatic. > > You WHAT??? You shift in a manual transmission car without using the > clutch? > I bet you only drive rental cars

When driving a company car..a nice new escort the gearbox was good enough for once rolling in 2nd and a quiet road to never use th clutch and use left foot braking and just rev match...After some practice @ the expense of the cars owner i could drive any distance without the use of the clutch atall..once you got the nack its easy..I could even get it into first with a very hard blip..You can just feel the moment its right on the gear stick and with a light touch it just pops in...this means you dont have to use the clutch so have one foot for brake and one for thrittle like a Kart...But BE WARNED you forget and stab the brake like a clutch for a while as your not used to the left foot braking...very nasty when you do that want to make sure you got a seatbelt on :)) or your teeth and the wheel will meet... I tried this in a 67 Triumph Spitfire but the box was a bit old and very difficult to rev match but it could be done..Ive tried this in a few modern cars A golf and Citroen Xantia..all of these were easy... but old boxs are harder...Makes a long drive on an A-Road much nicer as your clutch foot its beng used on a heavy clutch..Once you got the nack you need never sue the clutch once rolling ever again :) DP Remco Moedt wrote in message <[email hidden]>... >Jan Hovius <[email hidden]> wrote: > >>Harjan Brand wrote: >> >>> Explain me, you drive an automatic car so left foot braking feelsunnatural? >>> I think left foot braking is far easier in an automatic than in a manual >>> shifter. >>> With a manual gearbox you constantly have to decide whether not you'llbe >>> left braking, with an automatic box you can do it all the time andthere's >>> no need for heel and toeing. For me it;s the only pro about anautomatic. >>> >> >>I read a lot of "heel and toeing", even think I see it happening in "Grand >>Prix" (the frankenheimer movie) too but I don't really understand it.Could >>somebody of you goeroes explain what this heel-and-toeing technique reallyis

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>>and what it's advantage over "normal" driving is? > >In a non-synchronized gearbox you need to "blip" the throttle so >the gears have the same speed before you change the gear. If you >don't, you hear a scary noise.... <g> This is mostly done while >downshifting, and that's something you do when you're braking. > >So, you need to press the brake, throttle and clutch at the same time, >but you only have 2 feet. In this case you use the left foot for >clutching, the right foot toe for braking, and the right foot heel for >the throttle. > >Remco >

Oh mayve im just more talented...but i found clutch down changes easy :)..its just giving it a good rev ( a rev counter help then when you know your car, you just bring the rev to where you know they'd be in the lower gear...Its the feeling through the gear stick that tells you, just rev it high) then as the revs are diclining you start to put pressure on the stick and if you rev to 5500-6000 between changes then as the revs dicline you will hit the point of revs and gears are matched and then the stick will just pop into gear..it so easy..Just Rev high and be ready straight away after youve reved on the stick applying slight pressure..The box does the change for you..It aint hard..You just gotta make sure youve reved high enough and are ready on the stick before the rev fall...Obviously as your reving use left foot braking as your not using the clutch at all..Then your right foot has much more control on the throttle than if your heel and toeing...This technique does away with the need to heel and toe at all anyway.. Make sure you find a quiet road to practice :)..left foot brakings a bitch to start..your left foot is like your left hand..useless till you get it calibrated :) DP Jan Verschueren wrote in message ... >Not to mention it's "rat bastard hard" <excuse the expression>, especially >in a fuel injected car (engine management works against you). > >I've been trying it myself and I can sort of do it going up the box from1st >to 4th (5th is out of the question, can't even shift that smoothly usingthe >clutch). Downshifts are unpractical as you need to be very precise to be >able to engage the gear, which leads to a lot of time lost searching forthe >correct revs in neutral. Something you can do while coasting, but out ofthe

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>question when braking for a corner. > >Jan. >=--- >Tim Wheatley <[email hidden]> wrote in message >news:yJPK4.14124$[email hidden]... >> you can shift without the clutch in a road car too, it bolloxs the

gearbox >> eventually though ;o) >> >> >> <snip> > >

Because anyone with a interested in using a car for a good belt on a quiet road aint gonna chose an automatic...bloody awful :)..i drove one one day used the stick like a manual all day...1st 2nd 3rd zzzzzzzzz terrible, i enjoy my driving and a automatic i might as well take the bus :)...Autos stink and are for old men and people without the confidence to drive a manual shift <G> Each to there own of course but autos...... DP Alpha Omega wrote in message <[email hidden]>...

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>On Mon, 17 Apr 2000 22:28:46 +0200, Rich ><[email hidden]> wrote: > >>what is the obsession of the US of using auto gears in cars. i'm not >>getting at the US too much here i just want to know why anyone would >>possibly prefer one over driving a car with a manual gearbox. >> >>the only time we use autos in europe is in dodgem cars isn't it ?? > >I'm the complete opposite. I can't understand why anybody would choose >to drive a manual car when you have the option to drive an automatic. > >Why put yourself through the extra hassle of shifting gears and >popping the clutch? You don't gain much out of it. > > >Alpha Omega >E-Mail: [email hidden] >ICQ: 70300233

In message <[email hidden]> Alpha Omega <[email hidden]> wrote: > I'm not sure about the rest of the world, but over here (UK) you're not > allowed to use your left foot at all when taking your test in an > automatic vehicle. Right foot only. Exactly, this is what I was thinking, and I can't see why anyone would want to brake with their left foot! Even in an automatic, you should *only* use your right foot. Is anyone here left foot braking *and* keeping on some power with their right foot?! I've also tried that, but it was a bit dangerous! > I tried using my left foot to brake earlier on today. It was a horrible > feeling. There isn't even enough room for both my legs to sit together to > control both the pedals. I've tried it in two different manual cars. You tend to press the brake *far* too hard! :-) Oh, and of course, I can't down-shift because I can't get to the clutch! -- Richard. "You think you lost your love, when I saw her yesterday."

In article <8di36e$4ji$[email hidden]>, "kevingav" <[email hidden]> writes:

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>"Dave Henrie" <[email hidden]> wrote in message >news:[email hidden]... >> Plus any competant instructor should rap the knuckles of anyone using >> the left foot to brake with an Automatic. If you are like most of us >> lazy Americans, you will rest your left foot on the brake pedal...What >> does this do? Wears out your brake pads and confuses the Hell out of >> anyone following you in traffic. >> dave henrie >> > >Nonesense. Any competant instructor should rap the knuckles of anyone >resting their left foot on the brake pedal, or clutch in a manual. > >The only competant argument for not left foot braking an auto is that a >driver might get confused when switching back and forth from a manual. > >Left foot braking is perfectly ok with either form of tranny. > >I left foot brake and clutchless shift my manual street car all the time. I >NEVER use my right foot on the brake in an automatic. > >I use the deadpedal for my resting left foot. That's what it's there for.

Deadpedal? Never heard of it... -- Tiger Stadium R.I.P. 1912-1999 Own Grand Prix Legends? Goto http://gpl.gamestats.com/vroc Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

In article <8di1s3$7nhgr$[email hidden]>, "Stephen Ferguson" <[email hidden]> writes:

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>Dave Henrie <[email hidden]> wrote in message >news:[email hidden]... >> Ever try to stop at an icy/snow-covered intersection on a cold morning >> when the autochoke has the engine rpms sky high and the back wheels >> spinning even with the brakes applied? >> dave henrie >> >Uh... first thing you learn in a decent driving school in Canada (if you are >learning on an automatic) is how to slap it into neutral without a second >thought. It was a natural reaction in the winter. Of course, I would never >volutarily go back to an automatic, but they're not soooo bad. > >Stephen

Hmm...I was never taught that(Detroit, MI). I just started doing it out of (my) necessity(front wheel drive). Until just now, I had never heard of anyone ELSE doing it... Eldred -- Tiger Stadium R.I.P. 1912-1999 Own Grand Prix Legends? Goto http://gpl.gamestats.com/vroc Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

EldredP <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > In article <8di1s3$7nhgr$[email hidden]>, "Stephen Ferguson" > <[email hidden]> writes: > > >Dave Henrie <[email hidden]> wrote in message > >news:[email hidden]... > >> Ever try to stop at an icy/snow-covered intersection on a coldmorning > >> when the autochoke has the engine rpms sky high and the back wheels > >> spinning even with the brakes applied? > >> dave henrie > >> > >Uh... first thing you learn in a decent driving school in Canada (if youare > >learning on an automatic) is how to slap it into neutral without a second > >thought. It was a natural reaction in the winter. Of course, I wouldnever > >volutarily go back to an automatic, but they're not soooo bad. > > > >Stephen > > Hmm...I was never taught that(Detroit, MI). I just started doing it outof > (my) necessity(front wheel drive). Until just now, I had never heard ofanyone > ELSE doing it... > > Eldred Notice I said *decent* driving school :-) The one I went to in '84 took us out to a big, empty lot and let us practice various skid recovery techniques. It wasn't, however, a specialized performance school; it was the nationwide "Young Drivers of Canada" school, which supplements its program with an annual rally, where equal points are given for on-the-road defensive drivng technique and parking-lot autocross-style car handling skills. A bit better than the "parallel park and you're done" curriculum at a lot of North American schools. Stephen

I wouldn't say heel-toeing downshifting in order to match revs for the lower gear is to prevent gearbox damage or accidental missed downshifts, but to prevent any additional torque transfer through the driveline. When you don't blip the throttle to get the engine to the right rpm, the car lurches, right? We've all done that. Shift from a high speed into first gear. Even while braking, the car jolts to a little lower speed abruptly. What's happening is a matter of inertia. The engine is turning slow, the tranny is turning fast. Drop the clutch when you're in that lower gear and the engine speeds up very quickly to match the transmission. Remember Isaac Newton? Action/Reaction? When the engine speeds up quickly at clutch engagement, the driveline slows down (negative torque, just like a brake). Whatever amount of torque it takes to speed up the engine during that quick engagement time is exactly how much torque (but in the opposite direction) will be shot through the transmission. If your rears are at their braking/traction limit, you just added a bit more braking force unintentionally and 'round ya go! The heel-toe downshift prevents this from happening. If the clutch is let out with the input tranny shaft and engine speeds matched, there's no reaction between the two. Now the only thing slowing you down is that perfectly graceful foot on the magic "woah!" pedal, connected to brakes that can lock the wheels all by themselves hopefully, without the aid of engine braking! Todd

m.seery <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:q07L4.1356$[email hidden]... > Actually, it's quite easy and painless with the right box and technique. > Gone are the days of double declutching as well for the most part<G> > > MS It's hell on the snychros though. A lot of people think they are doing a whiz-bang job of clutchless shifting, but a modern synchromesh can mask a lot of bad technique. Mostly they are doing a "bang" job of clutchless shifting, and the reality check comes about a year later when they are given the bill for replacing two little 30 buck synchros, with the addition of all that labour to drop the transmission on a (more likely than not) FWD car. Stephen

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> "�artijn" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:01bfa961$4f41d6e0$ed1040d4@martijn... > > > > > I left foot brake and clutchless shift my manual street car all the > time. > > I > > > NEVER use my right foot on the brake in an automatic. > > > > You WHAT??? You shift in a manual transmission car without using the > > clutch? > > I bet you only drive rental cars > > > > > >

m.seery <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:jz7L4.1375$[email hidden]... > My last car recently died after doing clutchless changes. I had covered > 194,000 miles in it. In all this time I only ever had one clutch chance<G> Well done! My record was 250,000km on one clutch. > I'd not recommend trying to go into first with the engine running and the > car stationery though lol. > Of course, if it was a get yourself home job with a broken cable etc, it's > simple to put the thing in gear and start rolling on the battery. > I used exactly that technique to drive 8 hours home from a north-country canoe trip with a broken cable. It got some funny looks at the traffic lights as this silent car with a canoe on top suddenly went bucking down the road then zoomed away. Stephen

kevingav <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:8di49i$55p$[email hidden]...

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> With the clutch materials used at the time the clutch was the most likely > part of the drivetrain to fail, every use shortened its life and entailed > the risk of burning it our completely. The drivers, for the most part, > avoided it's use during a race, saving it only for when it was really > neccessary. This is still true today in many large Sedan classes, such as > Trans Am. Shifting clutchless is perfectly realistic. I do it in my street > Honda CRX all the time.

And Schumacher hosed the clutch at the start on his F1 debut with Jordan. Still happens, even in the space age world of F1.

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> > Left foot braking is another realism story, the only problem being the > steering shaft passing directly through the drivers feet made it difficult > to move the left foot over to the brake pedal. There WERE cars and drivers > who put the brake pedal on the left and the clutch in the middle however. > Pre war this was even common. >

I was just reading about some monster in Classic & Sports Cars (a Maserati 4L (??)) with the pedals arranged with clutch on the left, brake on the right and accelerator in the middle. The driver said it took a lot of concentration to drive it :-) Stephen

Dave Powell <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:fF4L4.14981$[email hidden]... > > I tried this in a 67 Triumph Spitfire but the box was a bit old and very > difficult to rev match but it could be done..Ive tried this in a fewmodern > cars A golf and Citroen Xantia..all of these were easy... but old boxsare > harder...Makes a long drive on an A-Road much nicer as your clutch footits > beng used on a heavy clutch..Once you got the nack you need never sue the > clutch once rolling ever again :) > There's the clue... the synchros are making up for any inadequacies in technique, whereas the Spitfire tranny was the true test of your skill. Guess what the modern transmission is going to look like after a few thousand km if you are relying on the synchros telling you when it's good to go for the next gear? Stephen

Dave Powell <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:1Q4L4.14982$[email hidden]... > gear...Its the feeling through the gear stick that tells you, just rev it > high) then as the revs are diclining you start to put pressure on thestick > and if you rev to 5500-6000 between changes then as the revs dicline you > will hit the point of revs and gears are matched and then the stick will > just pop into gear..it so easy..Just Rev high and be ready straight away > after youve reved on the stick applying slight pressure..The box does the > change for you..It aint hard..You just gotta make sure youve reved high Sorry to sound like a broken record, but this is not a proper technique. You are using the synchros as a crutch for bad technique, and you're going to crunch them soon enough. I recommend everyone who wants to try this go get an automotive repair manual and read up on what the synchros do. Then go to your local transmission shop and ask for the cost of parts and labour to replace the 2nd and 3rd gear synchros. Stephen

Marc (I think it was 'marc' wasn't it?), Thanks for your thorough explanation on "heel&toeing". Since I'm not a car-technician and have difficulties imagining how the combination engine-gearbox really works it still is a bit too technical but I do understand the principle now. I also know now that it's not something I have to focus on to improve my performance in GPL (bugger, .... thought I had found the reason I was so slooow). Once again thank you all in this thread. -- Jan Hovius

Driving automatic real life only with right foot and GPL with left foot braking. No prob at all. Seems that I don't tend to steer with the brake pedal in real life :-( Jens On Mon, 17 Apr 2000 22:17:06 GMT, "Harjan Brand" <[email hidden]> wrote:

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>I don't agree, I consider myself a very competent driver and anytime I drive >a automatic I use my left foot. I'm used to left foot braking, so for me >there's no problem in doing it. > >People who aren't used to braking with their left foot should not give it a >try in their road car. > >

--------------------------------------------- [email hidden] Remove "NOSPAM" before using my email-address JensSchumi homepage at http://members.xoom.com/JensSchu/ Racing simulation, esp. GPL Logitech Wingman FF optimization Classic cars, esp. Morris Minor Radio controlled airplanes

You should see the looks one gets these days at dealerships when you ask for manual transmission . . . "well aaaa, that's going to be tough to find in this model . . . you know it will kill the resale value." For the first time in my life I'm driving without a clutch . . . damn I wish I held on to the TR4 now :(. KP On Mon, 17 Apr 2000 22:28:46 +0200, Rich <[email hidden]> wrote: >what is the obsession of the US of using auto gears in cars. i'm not >getting at the US too much here i just want to know why anyone would >possibly prefer one over driving a car with a manual gearbox.

You will find little or no reference at all in the Highway Code to actual driving technique. It is there to deal with road proceedure, ethics and laws. The Physical driving aspects of driving a car, (inclusive of requirements for passing the driving test), are covered in "The Driving Manual", by the Driving Standards Agency and published by HMSO. This is one of the reference Bibles that instructors use. As far as right foot braking goes, it has this to say. <Quoted text> When driving along, it is safer to use the right foot only for both brake and accelerator pedals, just as you do with vehicles with a manual gearbox. This devolops anticipation by encouraging 1. The early release of the gas pedal, and 2. Early and progressive braking. It is also true for a majority of drivers <and remember we are talking about learners here, not experienced drivers, Kartists, racers or sim drivers. MS> that there is a much higher degree of sensivity and control with the use of the right foot. It cuts out 1. The instability and wear and tear brought about by braking against acceleration < In my experience I have seen people in a blind panic literally floor both pedals in emergency stop situations. Not to be recommended in something like a V12 Jag. MS> 2. The need to learn a different method if you change from driving an automatic to a manual or vice versa </Quoted text> Mark Seery Department of Transport ADI BTW: Left foot breaking is not allowed because you cannot drive with a plaster cast on it <G> Sorry: Couldn't resist. "Alpha Omega" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > On Mon, 17 Apr 2000 22:17:06 GMT, "Harjan Brand" <[email hidden]> > wrote: > > >I don't agree, I consider myself a very competent driver and anytime Idrive > >a automatic I use my left foot. I'm used to left foot braking, so for me > >there's no problem in doing it. > > > >People who aren't used to braking with their left foot should not give ita

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> >try in their road car. > > There must be a reason why left foot breaking is not allowed by the > highway code in an automatic car in this country. Otherwise, wouldn't > they leave it up to the driver to decide which foot he uses? > > > Alpha Omega > E-Mail: [email hidden] > ICQ: 70300233

Actually, it's quite easy and painless with the right box and technique. Gone are the days of double declutching as well for the most part<G> MS "�artijn" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:01bfa961$4f41d6e0$ed1040d4@martijn... > > > I left foot brake and clutchless shift my manual street car all thetime.

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> I > > NEVER use my right foot on the brake in an automatic. > > You WHAT??? You shift in a manual transmission car without using the > clutch? > I bet you only drive rental cars > >

Jan. There is no real advantage in everyday driving unless you have a performance or supercar. The whole purpose of heel - toe is to match the engine revs to roadspeed for any given gear when changing down. For instance if your car does 3000 revs in 4th gear ar 30 mph and 3500 revs at the same speed in third you will get engine braking as the engine and flywheel, a heavy mass in road cars is accelerated. This is not a big deal with your average 70-120 BHP family hack. Larger, more powerful engines will have bigger differences in gear ratios and will also have a huge amount of engine braking. In the old F1 cars, you might have been pitched off the road as the rear wheels became unstable or even lost all grip entirely. Heel and toe is used to prevent this problem when under heavy braking and changing down. When braking from a higher speed to the aforementioned 30mph, you would use both pedals at the same time with the right foot . Some people used to use the heel of the foot on one pedal and the toe on the other(Hence heeling and toeing). It is also common to use the brake as normal but use the side of the foot to blip the gas. In each case, this can only work well if the pedals are set correctly for height and spacing. The technique goes like this. xx mph --Brake----> 35mph----Whilst still braking, blip the throttle to match engine revs for lower gear----->30mph---->change down. The other reason racers do this is to prevent destruction of gearboxes. MS "Jan Hovius" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > Harjan Brand wrote: > > > Explain me, you drive an automatic car so left foot braking feelsunnatural? > > I think left foot braking is far easier in an automatic than in a manual > > shifter. > > With a manual gearbox you constantly have to decide whether not you'llbe > > left braking, with an automatic box you can do it all the time andthere's > > no need for heel and toeing. For me it;s the only pro about anautomatic. > > > > I read a lot of "heel and toeing", even think I see it happening in "Grand > Prix" (the frankenheimer movie) too but I don't really understand it.Could > somebody of you goeroes explain what this heel-and-toeing technique reallyis

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> and what it's advantage over "normal" driving is? > > > > -- > Jan Hovius > > >

"Harjan Brand" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:WIWK4.2555$[email hidden]... > I'll give it a try, in a racing car you go down the box under braking (so > from 5 to 2 is 5-4-3-2). While you brake and go from 5-4 (and from 4-3 and > 3-2) you're gearbox will be turning faster than your engine revs (when you > brake the revs go down because you don't give any throttle), with a non > syncro meshed gearbox it will be very hard to get the gear cogs to getinto > each other. Furthermore you'll have excessive engine braking which isn't > good for the balance (this is an important reason for road users to useheel > and toeing). I have to add here that his is true in a lot of racing situations but does not apply to road cars. There is no need whatsoever to go through the box sequentially. In this day and age, block changing is taught. If you was going from 5th to 2nd, you would simply brake brake brake and change directly into the lower gear. There is no advantage to be gained from engine braking in this day and age and going through the box is as old fashioned as double declutching. Gone are the days when we had brake fade from inefficient, overheating drum brakes all round. Any modern car will outperform the grip afforded by tyres. In other words, they will lock up well before you reach the maximum retarding ability of the brakes. Further to this, by constantly clutching and declutching, you stand a much greater chance of destabilising the car or locking up. We also have to consider that 95% of the road driving fraternity are pretty average in terms of ability and heeling and toeing is probably beyond the capabilities of most. I'd hardly say that it was an essential part of general driving techniques > So while braking with one part of your foot you apply quite some throttle > with the other to keep the revs up. > > A nice way in a road car to try it at a slow speed is to brake and shiftto > first gear at about 20k, without heel and toeing the shift will be veryhard > (don't push through it) with some nice heel and toeing it will work just > fine. > In order to know the revs you won't to make just check the revs you'redoing

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> in first gear at 20k, you'll need just a very bit more in order to make a > supersmooth downshift. > > "Jan Hovius" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > Harjan Brand wrote: > > > > > Explain me, you drive an automatic car so left foot braking feels > unnatural? > > > I think left foot braking is far easier in an automatic than in a

manual

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> > > shifter. > > > With a manual gearbox you constantly have to decide whether not you'll > be > > > left braking, with an automatic box you can do it all the time and > there's > > > no need for heel and toeing. For me it;s the only pro about an > automatic. > > > > > > > I read a lot of "heel and toeing", even think I see it happening in

"Grand > > Prix" (the frankenheimer movie) too but I don't really understand it. > Could > > somebody of you goeroes explain what this heel-and-toeing techniquereally

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> is > > and what it's advantage over "normal" driving is? > > > > > > > > -- > > Jan Hovius > > > > > > > >

My last car recently died after doing clutchless changes. I had covered 194,000 miles in it. In all this time I only ever had one clutch chance <G> I'd not recommend trying to go into first with the engine running and the car stationery though lol. Of course, if it was a get yourself home job with a broken cable etc, it's simple to put the thing in gear and start rolling on the battery. MS "Dave Powell" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:fF4L4.14981$[email hidden]... > When driving a company car..a nice new escort the gearbox was good enough > for once rolling in 2nd and a quiet road to never use th clutch and useleft > foot braking and just rev match...After some practice @ the expense of the > cars owner i could drive any distance without the use of the clutch > atall..once you got the nack its easy..I could even get it into first witha > very hard blip..You can just feel the moment its right on the gear stickand > with a light touch it just pops in...this means you dont have to use the > clutch so have one foot for brake and one for thrittle like a Kart...ButBE > WARNED you forget and stab the brake like a clutch for a while as your not > used to the left foot braking...very nasty when you do that want to make > sure you got a seatbelt on :)) or your teeth and the wheel will meet... > > I tried this in a 67 Triumph Spitfire but the box was a bit old and very > difficult to rev match but it could be done..Ive tried this in a fewmodern > cars A golf and Citroen Xantia..all of these were easy... but old boxsare > harder...Makes a long drive on an A-Road much nicer as your clutch footits

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> beng used on a heavy clutch..Once you got the nack you need never sue the > clutch once rolling ever again :) > > DP > > Remco Moedt wrote in message <[email hidden]>... > >Jan Hovius <[email hidden]> wrote: > > > >>Harjan Brand wrote: > >> > >>> Explain me, you drive an automatic car so left foot braking feels > unnatural? > >>> I think left foot braking is far easier in an automatic than in a

manual

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> >>> shifter. > >>> With a manual gearbox you constantly have to decide whether not you'll > be > >>> left braking, with an automatic box you can do it all the time and > there's > >>> no need for heel and toeing. For me it;s the only pro about an > automatic. > >>> > >> > >>I read a lot of "heel and toeing", even think I see it happening in

"Grand > >>Prix" (the frankenheimer movie) too but I don't really understand it. > Could > >>somebody of you goeroes explain what this heel-and-toeing techniquereally

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> is > >>and what it's advantage over "normal" driving is? > > > >In a non-synchronized gearbox you need to "blip" the throttle so > >the gears have the same speed before you change the gear. If you > >don't, you hear a scary noise.... <g> This is mostly done while > >downshifting, and that's something you do when you're braking. > > > >So, you need to press the brake, throttle and clutch at the same time, > >but you only have 2 feet. In this case you use the left foot for > >clutching, the right foot toe for braking, and the right foot heel for > >the throttle. > > > >Remco > > > >

"> I'm not sure about the rest of the world, but over here (UK) you're > not allowed to use your left foot at all when taking your test in an > automatic vehicle. Right foot only. You must have been tested in a > manual car, but drive an automatic when it suits you right? Ever > actually been tested in an automatic? You can take an auto test but it precludes you from driving a manual. Think about all the disabled people who cannot do so anyway. If you do the normal test, you can drive anything. MS

Rubbish my friend. I'll show ya how the master does it when you come over <G> MS Something you can do while coasting, but out of the > question when braking for a corner. > > Jan.

A frnd of mine when we were 17 had a Chevette, he tossed the clutch one day (of course) his dad worked at a farm equipment dealer... well needless to say that thing had a hellish set of springs in the clutch or something when he was done. I am not a big guy, but i had to have the seatbelt extra tight when shiftin or i'd come off the seat +) lol Md EldredP wrote:

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> > In article <[email hidden]>, Rich > <[email hidden]> writes: > > >> Plus any competant instructor should rap the knuckles of anyone using > >>the left foot to brake with an Automatic. If you are like most of us > >>lazy Americans, you will rest your left foot on the brake pedal...What > >>does this do? Wears out your brake pads and confuses the Hell out of > >>anyone following you in traffic. > >>dave henrie > > > >what is the obsession of the US of using auto gears in cars. i'm not > >getting at the US too much here i just want to know why anyone would > >possibly prefer one over driving a car with a manual gearbox. > > > >the only time we use autos in europe is in dodgem cars isn't it ?? > > > >Rich > > I had a manual transmission car once. After trying to drive it in rush hour > stop-n-go traffic, the novelty wore off REAL quick.... Never again.... I don't > know why anyone would possibly prefer the manual...<g> > > Eldred > -- > Tiger Stadium R.I.P. 1912-1999 > Own Grand Prix Legends? Goto http://gpl.gamestats.com/vroc > > Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you > with experience... > Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

jus lov to dbl clutch tho +) when i get in a stick shft that is heh Jus remember my dad givin me stick shift lessons, and he would show me how they had to do it in the "old" days (gee guess even i can say that now...) Md "m.seery" wrote:

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> > Actually, it's quite easy and painless with the right box and technique. > Gone are the days of double declutching as well for the most part<G> > > MS > "�artijn" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:01bfa961$4f41d6e0$ed1040d4@martijn... > > > > > I left foot brake and clutchless shift my manual street car all the > time. > > I > > > NEVER use my right foot on the brake in an automatic. > > > > You WHAT??? You shift in a manual transmission car without using the > > clutch? > > I bet you only drive rental cars > > > >

Ick.. Escort... That was my first stick. (North american 83 HO model) Unfortunately it was the family car, and i bein all of 17 took the transaxle out of it within the first year. I did love that car tho, had many a good race down the old 'B' line in it. Md Dave Powell wrote:

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> > When driving a company car..a nice new escort the gearbox was good enough > for once rolling in 2nd and a quiet road to never use th clutch and use left > foot braking and just rev match...After some practice @ the expense of the > cars owner i could drive any distance without the use of the clutch > atall..once you got the nack its easy..I could even get it into first with a > very hard blip..You can just feel the moment its right on the gear stick and > with a light touch it just pops in...this means you dont have to use the > clutch so have one foot for brake and one for thrittle like a Kart...But BE > WARNED you forget and stab the brake like a clutch for a while as your not > used to the left foot braking...very nasty when you do that want to make > sure you got a seatbelt on :)) or your teeth and the wheel will meet... > > I tried this in a 67 Triumph Spitfire but the box was a bit old and very > difficult to rev match but it could be done..Ive tried this in a few modern > cars A golf and Citroen Xantia..all of these were easy... but old boxs are > harder...Makes a long drive on an A-Road much nicer as your clutch foot its > beng used on a heavy clutch..Once you got the nack you need never sue the > clutch once rolling ever again :) > > DP > > Remco Moedt wrote in message <[email hidden]>... > >Jan Hovius <[email hidden]> wrote: > > > >>Harjan Brand wrote: > >> > >>> Explain me, you drive an automatic car so left foot braking feels > unnatural? > >>> I think left foot braking is far easier in an automatic than in a manual > >>> shifter. > >>> With a manual gearbox you constantly have to decide whether not you'll > be > >>> left braking, with an automatic box you can do it all the time and > there's > >>> no need for heel and toeing. For me it;s the only pro about an > automatic. > >>> > >> > >>I read a lot of "heel and toeing", even think I see it happening in "Grand > >>Prix" (the frankenheimer movie) too but I don't really understand it. > Could > >>somebody of you goeroes explain what this heel-and-toeing technique really > is > >>and what it's advantage over "normal" driving is? > > > >In a non-synchronized gearbox you need to "blip" the throttle so > >the gears have the same speed before you change the gear. If you > >don't, you hear a scary noise.... <g> This is mostly done while > >downshifting, and that's something you do when you're braking. > > > >So, you need to press the brake, throttle and clutch at the same time, > >but you only have 2 feet. In this case you use the left foot for > >clutching, the right foot toe for braking, and the right foot heel for > >the throttle. > > > >Remco > >

"m.seery" wrote: > > The technique goes like this. xx mph --Brake----> 35mph----Whilst still > braking, at this point the engine should be disconnected from the tyres; use clutch (preferable on a regular car) or put the gearlever in neutral. > blip the throttle to match engine revs for lower > gear----->30mph---->change down. > > The other reason racers do this is to prevent destruction of gearboxes. > > MS

Stephen said: Enter the real-old "heel and toe".:-D Matt

Stephen said: > > I was just reading about some monster in Classic & Sports Cars (a Maserati > 4L (??)) with the pedals arranged with clutch on the left, brake on the > right and accelerator in the middle. The driver said it took a lot of > concentration to drive it :-) Enter the real-old "heel and toe".:-D Matt

> engine braking. In the old F1 cars, you might have been pitched off theroad > as the rear wheels became unstable or even lost all grip entirely. Call '99 cars old? Do you remember Monza 99? Why did Mika cry? He shifted down to 1st instead of 2nd and spun off.

I was refering (As this thread does) to cars with manual gearboxes and clutches, and not to cars that have pinball flippers underneath the steering wheel ! MS "Tim Vanhee" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:H1iL4.113908$[email hidden]...

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> > > engine braking. In the old F1 cars, you might have been pitched off the > road > > as the rear wheels became unstable or even lost all grip entirely. > > Call '99 cars old? Do you remember Monza 99? Why did Mika cry? He shifted > down to 1st instead of 2nd and spun off. > >

Well more like the spitfire box was brand new and very tight...and my skills were less advanced back then....But still spitfire boxs and totally clutchless changes are hard, and the gears in a spitfire box do have synchros my friend (even first on my specially built close ratio )...I tried these changes this on a nice 80,000miles gearbox in a herald..and it was much much much easier than the 5,000mile gearbox in my spitfire...Spitbox are very very tight when new and those spitfire gears make very very bad noises when you crunch em :)) Im sure i could got the changes down to a fine art but not with my new gearbox i paid a fortune for... also i imagine that a classic race box use in a racing car would be rebuilt after each race as when use in this manner they dont last 80,000miles do they..even in a racers hands :) DP Stephen Ferguson wrote in message <8djp57$7t27b$[email hidden]>...

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> >Dave Powell <[email hidden]> wrote in message >news:fF4L4.14981$[email hidden]... >> >> I tried this in a 67 Triumph Spitfire but the box was a bit old and very >> difficult to rev match but it could be done..Ive tried this in a few >modern >> cars A golf and Citroen Xantia..all of these were easy... but old boxs >are >> harder...Makes a long drive on an A-Road much nicer as your clutch foot >its >> beng used on a heavy clutch..Once you got the nack you need never sue the >> clutch once rolling ever again :) >> > >There's the clue... the synchros are making up for any inadequacies in >technique, whereas the Spitfire tranny was the true test of your skill. >Guess what the modern transmission is going to look like after a few >thousand km if you are relying on the synchros telling you when it's good

to >go for the next gear? > >Stephen > > >

As i said before boxs in a race are rebuilt even few thousands miles..so using this technique even for a great racer is bad on the box..And in my escort i did about 20,000miles doing delivery runs and the box was still sweet...True when waiting for the stick to tell you when its right is waiting on the synchros but after time you dont need to wait as you now the revs and timing..but intially learning the technique wating for the right moment on the snchyros helped..but after a while you just know the system and get it straight in.... But if you drive your cars hard maybe a box (sncyros) every 10,000miles aint to bad..Hell the motor in my spitfire needed new bigends ever 15,000miles..so mabye this could be added to the rountine maintence....:) DP Stephen Ferguson wrote in message <8djp9i$7ueeq$[email hidden]>...

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> >Dave Powell <[email hidden]> wrote in message >news:1Q4L4.14982$[email hidden]... >> gear...Its the feeling through the gear stick that tells you, just rev it >> high) then as the revs are diclining you start to put pressure on the >stick >> and if you rev to 5500-6000 between changes then as the revs dicline you >> will hit the point of revs and gears are matched and then the stick will >> just pop into gear..it so easy..Just Rev high and be ready straight away >> after youve reved on the stick applying slight pressure..The box does the >> change for you..It aint hard..You just gotta make sure youve reved high > >Sorry to sound like a broken record, but this is not a proper technique. >You are using the synchros as a crutch for bad technique, and you're going >to crunch them soon enough. I recommend everyone who wants to try this go >get an automotive repair manual and read up on what the synchros do. Then >go to your local transmission shop and ask for the cost of parts and labour >to replace the 2nd and 3rd gear synchros. > >Stephen > > >

In article <[email hidden]>, Alpha Omega <[email hidden]> writes:

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>I can understand that feeling. I feel the same way about motorcycles. >How anybody can enjoy riding an automatic motorcycle (or scooter) is >beyond me. It removes the fun from the bike. But, a car is an entirely >different subject. The first car I drove was a manual, and I thought >it couldn't get any better, until I tried an automatic and realised it >was much more fun. >

I've never ridden a motorcycle before, so I have no idea how difficult it would be to learn. As least I don't have to worry about falling out of a CAR...<g> Eldred -- Tiger Stadium R.I.P. 1912-1999 Own Grand Prix Legends? Goto http://gpl.gamestats.com/vroc Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

>Stephen said: >> >> I was just reading about some monster in Classic & Sports Cars (a Maserati >> 4L (??)) with the pedals arranged with clutch on the left, brake on the >> right and accelerator in the middle. The driver said it took a lot of >> concentration to drive it :-) It did. My mother told me about an old car her father owned many years ago which was configured like that. She borrowed it without permission to take to a dance, and when turning back into the driveway tried to press the "brake" to negotiate the turn and accelerated through his garage - he said he didn't know whether to be angry or cry with laughter at her shock. Cheers! John

In article <8dk8k1$7qvst$[email hidden]>, "Stephen Ferguson" <[email hidden]> writes:

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>Notice I said *decent* driving school :-) The one I went to in '84 took us >out to a big, empty lot and let us practice various skid recovery >techniques. It wasn't, however, a specialized performance school; it was >the nationwide "Young Drivers of Canada" school, which supplements its >program with an annual rally, where equal points are given for on-the-road >defensive drivng technique and parking-lot autocross-style car handling >skills. A bit better than the "parallel park and you're done" curriculum at >a lot of North American schools. > >Stephen >

Ok, I'll go along with that. The driving schools here DO leave a lot to be desired. I still see WAY too many stupid drivers... Eldred -- Tiger Stadium R.I.P. 1912-1999 Own Grand Prix Legends? Goto http://gpl.gamestats.com/vroc Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

Dave Powell <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:fbnL4.269$[email hidden]... > Well more like the spitfire box was brand new and very tight...and myskills > were less advanced back then....But still spitfire boxs and totally > clutchless changes are hard, and the gears in a spitfire box do have > synchros my friend (even first on my specially built close ratio )...Itried The British had discovered synchromesh as long ago as 1967? :-) You would never know it with a MGB we had... crunch crunch crunch... where's �*%$! first gear gone? > also i imagine that a classic race box use in a racing car would berebuilt > after each race as when use in this manner they dont last 80,000miles do > they..even in a racers hands :) The straight-cut gears help a lot, but it's true they are rebuilt. Stephen

Dave Powell <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:UinL4.275$[email hidden]... > But if you drive your cars hard maybe a box (sncyros) every 10,000milesaint > to bad..Hell the motor in my spitfire needed new bigends ever > 15,000miles..so mabye this could be added to the rountine maintence....:) Ouch! What did they use for bearings? Stilton cheese? I got 300,000km out of the top and bottom end of a bulletproof Toyota twin-cam with frequent trips to the lofty range of the rev counter. The bottom end was based on their supercharged and formula atlantic motor. Likewise, the bottom end of my old GTi went 250,000 (we won't talk about the shitty head, but it gave me an excuse to put in bigger valves). Again, the bottom end was designed for diesel duty, so very stout. Stephen

In article <[email hidden]>, Martyn Danby <[email hidden]> writes:

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>Ick.. Escort... > >That was my first stick. (North american 83 HO model) Unfortunately it >was the family car, and i bein all of 17 took the transaxle out of it >within the first year. I did love that car tho, had many a good race >down the old 'B' line in it. > >Md >

1986 Ford Escort. I had never driven a manual before I bought it. I learned when I picked up the car. The salesman taught me how to drive it in a parking lot, and I drove it home. Only stalled it once...<g> It wasn't hard to LEARN, it just got to be a hassle in rush hour traffic, or if I needed to drive with just my left hand - and use my right hand for 'other' purposes. I had a girlfriend at the time...<vbg> Eldred -- Tiger Stadium R.I.P. 1912-1999 Own Grand Prix Legends? Goto http://gpl.gamestats.com/vroc Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

LOL eldred, i can relate but didn't wanna discuss that side of it +) tho usually the stick jus got in the way!! mebbe thats why the north americans liked auto's and even 3 on the tree, so they could have a big bench seat... my thots Md EldredP wrote:

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> > In article <[email hidden]>, Martyn Danby <[email hidden]> > writes: > > >Ick.. Escort... > > > >That was my first stick. (North american 83 HO model) Unfortunately it > >was the family car, and i bein all of 17 took the transaxle out of it > >within the first year. I did love that car tho, had many a good race > >down the old 'B' line in it. > > > >Md > > > > 1986 Ford Escort. I had never driven a manual before I bought it. I learned > when I picked up the car. The salesman taught me how to drive it in a parking > lot, and I drove it home. Only stalled it once...<g> It wasn't hard to LEARN, > it just got to be a hassle in rush hour traffic, or if I needed to drive with > just my left hand - and use my right hand for 'other' purposes. I had a > girlfriend at the time...<vbg> > > Eldred > -- > Tiger Stadium R.I.P. 1912-1999 > Own Grand Prix Legends? Goto http://gpl.gamestats.com/vroc > > Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you > with experience... > Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

On Tue, 18 Apr 2000 11:41:56 -0400, "David R. Ericson" <[email hidden]> wrote: >Yes... Pittsburgh, PA to be a bit more precise. I figured that's what my knees >are for. It's an art form. Big Mac in mouth, map on lap, left hand on wheel, >shift with right hand and left foot, map back in left hand, Big Mac in right >hand, left knee controls steering wheel, right foot on gas... throw in >Super-sized fries and Sprite and it starts to get even more interesting... >works beautifully for me! :-) I wouldn't like to be in your shoes if there's an accident and the police and insurance companies learn what you were doing while you were driving. >I just don't feel like I'm "driving" with an automatic. We have a 2000 Honda >Odyssey mini-van for the family that's an automatic, but for my beater car >going back and forth to work I couldn't live without my 1990 Toyota Camry V6 >5-speed! I can understand that feeling. I feel the same way about motorcycles. How anybody can enjoy riding an automatic motorcycle (or scooter) is beyond me. It removes the fun from the bike. But, a car is an entirely different subject. The first car I drove was a manual, and I thought it couldn't get any better, until I tried an automatic and realised it was much more fun. Alpha Omega E-Mail: [email hidden] ICQ: 70300233

> Gimme a stick anyday. My son learned to drive an auto in school and > he had a hell of a time learning to drive a clutch stick combo. But he > finally got it figured out. This is one Yank who would never buy an > automatic.... I still see no benefits of a manual car over an automatic. I'm not surprised your son found it difficult to drive a manual transmission vehicle. Why would he want to, after making the smart decision and driving an automatic before hand? > Ever try to stop at an icy/snow-covered intersection on a cold morning > when the autochoke has the engine rpms sky high and the back wheels > spinning even with the brakes applied? No, because I'm a good driver. I know that if it's snowing, I shouldn't have the RPM's high at all. A manual car will give you more control over the engine, because you're in direct contact with it. You have to select when to shift gear and use the clutch to do so. However, all that gearing shifting and clutch pressing takes away from your overall control of the vehicle, because you're having to use one less hand on the wheel and you're having to concentrate on more than just the driving. An automatic gearbox removes the need for it. Alpha Omega E-Mail: [email hidden] ICQ: 70300233

On Tue, 18 Apr 2000 23:00:24 +0100, "Dave Powell" <[email hidden]> wrote: >Because anyone with a interested in using a car for a good belt on a quiet >road aint gonna chose an automatic...bloody awful :)..i drove one one day >used the stick like a manual all day...1st 2nd 3rd zzzzzzzzz terrible, i >enjoy my driving and a automatic i might as well take the bus :)...Autos >stink and are for old men and people without the confidence to drive a >manual shift <G> Each to there own of course but autos...... I think not! I'm 18 and I drive an automatic. I first started in a manual and enjoyed it thoroughly and had no problems controlling it, but after trying an automatic I soon learnt how much more exciting it was and now I only drive an auto. But, I can sympathise with your need to drive a manual transmission vehicle. I've been racing motorcycles since I was 13 and only stopped doing it a short while ago, but I still can not understand how or why those other motorcyclists on the road who drive automatic bikes (scooter) can do it. It removes all the enjoyment from riding. But, cars and motorcycles are an entirely different ball game. Alpha Omega E-Mail: [email hidden] ICQ: 70300233

On Tue, 18 Apr 2000 11:39:47 -0700, Marty <[email hidden]> wrote: >What country is that? > >And how would anyone know what foot you are using to brake? The UK. And as long as your driving instructor, or driving examiner was awake, they'd know which foot you were using to break with. If they caught you using the left foot, you'd fail, which is why you're not allowed to use it. Alpha Omega E-Mail: [email hidden] ICQ: 70300233

On Tue, 18 Apr 2000 12:40:04 -0400, "kevingav" <[email hidden]> wrote: >Nonesense. Any competant instructor should rap the knuckles of anyone >resting their left foot on the brake pedal, or clutch in a manual. We're not supposed to rest our foot against the brake. It's supposed to sit on the floor, on the left of the break, where it can relaxe and make fun of the right foot, which is doing all the work. :-) >The only competant argument for not left foot braking an auto is that a >driver might get confused when switching back and forth from a manual. Nope. The best argument for right foot breaking is that it's much easier to use and is safer. Pretty good reasons, if you ask me. >I left foot brake and clutchless shift my manual street car all the time. I >NEVER use my right foot on the brake in an automatic. If you had taken your automatic driving test in this country (UK), you'd have learnt that left foot breaking is wrong. You can not use it under test conditions. Alpha Omega E-Mail: [email hidden] ICQ: 70300233

On Wed, 19 Apr 2000 02:03:48 +0100, "m.seery" <[email hidden]> wrote: >You can take an auto test but it precludes you from driving a manual. Think >about all the disabled people who cannot do so anyway. If you do the normal >test, you can drive anything. That's right, BUT if you take a manual test and then use an automatic, you've not had a chance to be taught the correct way to drive an automatic. Alpha Omega E-Mail: [email hidden] ICQ: 70300233

On Thu, 20 Apr 2000 10:52:13 +0200, "Stephen Ferguson" <[email hidden]> wrote: > >Ouch! What did they use for bearings? Stilton cheese? It certainly approximated it. Best damned bearings I ever found for my Spridgets were from Beck-Arnley and were called "Glacier Tin-Aluminum". The embeddable substrate was a soft aluminum alloy instead of soft lead. Made a huge difference in infant mortality and long-term durability. Regards, Brett C. Cammack That's Racing! Motorsports Pompano Beach, FL

Alpha Omega wrote:

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> > A manual car will give you more control over the engine, because > you're in > direct contact with it. You have to select when to shift gear and use > the > clutch to do so. However, all that gearing shifting and clutch > pressing > takes away from your overall control of the vehicle, because you're > having > to use one less hand on the wheel and you're having to concentrate on > more > than just the driving. An automatic gearbox removes the need for it. >

I disagree with loss of overall control by only using one hand on the wheel. Even when I drive our "automatic" mini-van, I find myself only using one hand on the wheel. After 18+ years of driving manuals using one hand on the wheel, I've found that driving with 2 hands on the wheel just feels unnatural now. I have much better control of the wheel with one hand than with 2. I even only use one hand on the wheel for racing sims/games. I'll sometimes try 2 hands and I just feel like I'm always trying to overcorrect because my right hand wants to do more than it should... go back to one (left) hand on the wheel and I'm more precise and less constant jerking of the wheel. IMHO you have more total control of the car with a manual over an automatic. My personal preference is to be in control. This is why I always have to be the driver, not a passenger. I was going crazy when my wife drove me home from the hospital after out-patient wrist surgery recently. She just doesn't get the fact that situational awareness (always knowing where every other car is around you) is crucial to driving, and enhances the experience... :-) Try this once... learn to drive a manual correctly, then take an American muscle car (oh... say a Cobra Mustang) out for a test drive. First try one with an automatic, then one with a manual... then report back which was a better "driving" experience... ;-) Dave

"�artijn" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:01bfa961$4f41d6e0$ed1040d4@martijn... > > > I left foot brake and clutchless shift my manual street car all thetime.

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> I > > NEVER use my right foot on the brake in an automatic. > > You WHAT??? You shift in a manual transmission car without using the > clutch? > I bet you only drive rental cars > >

You tell me where I can rent manual tranny cars in US and they'll have a happy customer for life. My Honda CRX currently has 165,000 miles on the clock, on the original tranny *and clutch.* No problemo.

kevingav wrote:

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> > "�artijn" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:01bfa961$4f41d6e0$ed1040d4@martijn... > > > > > I left foot brake and clutchless shift my manual street car all the > time. > > I > > > NEVER use my right foot on the brake in an automatic. > > > > You WHAT??? You shift in a manual transmission car without using the > > clutch? > > I bet you only drive rental cars > > > > > > You tell me where I can rent manual tranny cars in US and they'll have a > happy customer for life.

Not at Budget, that's for sure. -- Chuck Kandler #70 K&S Racing http://www.fortunecity.com/silverstone/thepits/195 Competitor in the TopGear MGPRS2 league at: http://topgear.dhs.org/ Come on & join the fun! They'll call you names And spit in your face, But legends never die. --Gene Simmons

I used to own a '64 Triumph TR-4a and it had synchros on all but first gear. Loved the way that big ol' tractor motor pulled though so there wasn't much need to be downshifting into first except at stop signs. David "Dave Powell" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:rVJL4.971$[email hidden]... > lol :)..i believe the triumph spitfire#s and herald had synchromesh asearly

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> as 64...not on frist though..but dont quote me on that i know a 66spitfire > had them but not on first till 72 or something... > > DP > > Stephen Ferguson wrote in message <8dmg6f$82ssi$[email hidden]>... > > > >Dave Powell <[email hidden]> wrote in message > >news:fbnL4.269$[email hidden]... > >> Well more like the spitfire box was brand new and very tight...and my > >skills > >> were less advanced back then....But still spitfire boxs and totally > >> clutchless changes are hard, and the gears in a spitfire box do have > >> synchros my friend (even first on my specially built close ratio )...I > >tried > > > >The British had discovered synchromesh as long ago as 1967? :-) You

would > >never know it with a MGB we had... crunch crunch crunch... where's �*%$! > >first gear gone? > > > >> also i imagine that a classic race box use in a racing car would be > >rebuilt > >> after each race as when use in this manner they dont last 80,000milesdo

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> >> they..even in a racers hands :) > > > >The straight-cut gears help a lot, but it's true they are rebuilt. > > > >Stephen > > > > > > > > > >

lol :)..i believe the triumph spitfire#s and herald had synchromesh as early as 64...not on frist though..but dont quote me on that i know a 66spitfire had them but not on first till 72 or something... DP Stephen Ferguson wrote in message <8dmg6f$82ssi$[email hidden]>...

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> >Dave Powell <[email hidden]> wrote in message >news:fbnL4.269$[email hidden]... >> Well more like the spitfire box was brand new and very tight...and my >skills >> were less advanced back then....But still spitfire boxs and totally >> clutchless changes are hard, and the gears in a spitfire box do have >> synchros my friend (even first on my specially built close ratio )...I >tried > >The British had discovered synchromesh as long ago as 1967? :-) You would >never know it with a MGB we had... crunch crunch crunch... where's �*%$! >first gear gone? > >> also i imagine that a classic race box use in a racing car would be >rebuilt >> after each race as when use in this manner they dont last 80,000miles do >> they..even in a racers hands :) > >The straight-cut gears help a lot, but it's true they are rebuilt. > >Stephen > > > >

Yeah the 1500 sptifire motor had a weak bottom end..even in normal to highish reving they would start knocking after maybe 60,000..but with trips to redline even change they would start gently knocking at around 15,000 ro 20,000miles...but spitfires are a big mechano set..I did a engine out and bearing change in 2 hours once (with the aid of a crane)..as with the spitfire the huge bonnet just bolts off in 10mins leaving a very exposed and open engine bay with no body panels just chassis :))...And the start engine swap record i set with a friend, just exchanging one motor for a rebuilt and ready lump was 1 3/4hours from driving into the garage to driving out..We were very pround :).. With my other spits i used the earlier Mk3 1300 motor these are simply bulletproof..as they use a shorter stoke and less stress on bottom ends than the 1500..Also the 1300 had just as much grunt with a few simply mods and reved to 6500 not 5500 like 1500's...The Mk3 was the best motor for tuning and hard driving...1500 were just weak and crap..a touring motor not one for hard use..Unless you like bottom end bearing changes..:)) DP Stephen Ferguson wrote in message <8dmgd0$82ao1$[email hidden]>...

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> >Dave Powell <[email hidden]> wrote in message >news:UinL4.275$[email hidden]... > >> But if you drive your cars hard maybe a box (sncyros) every 10,000miles >aint >> to bad..Hell the motor in my spitfire needed new bigends ever >> 15,000miles..so mabye this could be added to the rountine maintence....:) > >Ouch! What did they use for bearings? Stilton cheese? I got 300,000km

out >of the top and bottom end of a bulletproof Toyota twin-cam with frequent >trips to the lofty range of the rev counter. The bottom end was based on >their supercharged and formula atlantic motor. Likewise, the bottom end of >my old GTi went 250,000 (we won't talk about the shitty head, but it gaveme

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>an excuse to put in bigger valves). Again, the bottom end was designed for >diesel duty, so very stout. > >Stephen > > >

In hard driving and auto sucks..you need 5 gears to get the most from a car..and need the gears to have full control..in auto you have no control useless as i do when driving them you use the auto as a manual :)..you go to over take someything and i drops you up a cog rright along side and your sat there waiting for damn thing to pick up..very dangerous If you plod along autos great, but for harder driving they suck and you lose total control over your vehicle...The only time id use an auto is motorways work..on A-Road runs they are bloody awful :) DP Alpha Omega wrote in message ...

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>> Gimme a stick anyday. My son learned to drive an auto in school and >> he had a hell of a time learning to drive a clutch stick combo. But he >> finally got it figured out. This is one Yank who would never buy an >> automatic.... > >I still see no benefits of a manual car over an automatic. > >I'm not surprised your son found it difficult to drive a manual >transmission >vehicle. Why would he want to, after making the smart decision and >driving >an automatic before hand? > >> Ever try to stop at an icy/snow-covered intersection on a cold morning >> when the autochoke has the engine rpms sky high and the back wheels >> spinning even with the brakes applied? > >No, because I'm a good driver. I know that if it's snowing, I >shouldn't have >the RPM's high at all. > >A manual car will give you more control over the engine, because >you're in >direct contact with it. You have to select when to shift gear and use >the >clutch to do so. However, all that gearing shifting and clutch >pressing >takes away from your overall control of the vehicle, because you're >having >to use one less hand on the wheel and you're having to concentrate on >more >than just the driving. An automatic gearbox removes the need for it. > > >Alpha Omega >E-Mail: [email hidden] >ICQ: 70300233

Your total right buddy...anyone who says there is little different between a manual and auto in respect to control the vechicle doesnt know there arse from thier elbow....auto's relieve the driver of total control in many many many road situations....I think they are dangerous especially in terms on having less gears, less go and a box that has a mind of it own.. DP David R. Ericson wrote in message <[email hidden]>...

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> >Alpha Omega wrote: >> >> A manual car will give you more control over the engine, because >> you're in >> direct contact with it. You have to select when to shift gear and use >> the >> clutch to do so. However, all that gearing shifting and clutch >> pressing >> takes away from your overall control of the vehicle, because you're >> having >> to use one less hand on the wheel and you're having to concentrate on >> more >> than just the driving. An automatic gearbox removes the need for it. >> > >I disagree with loss of overall control by only using one hand on the

wheel. >Even when I drive our "automatic" mini-van, I find myself only using onehand >on the wheel. After 18+ years of driving manuals using one hand on thewheel, >I've found that driving with 2 hands on the wheel just feels unnatural now.I >have much better control of the wheel with one hand than with 2. I evenonly >use one hand on the wheel for racing sims/games. I'll sometimes try 2hands >and I just feel like I'm always trying to overcorrect because my right hand >wants to do more than it should... go back to one (left) hand on the wheeland >I'm more precise and less constant jerking of the wheel. > >IMHO you have more total control of the car with a manual over anautomatic. >My personal preference is to be in control. This is why I always have tobe >the driver, not a passenger. I was going crazy when my wife drove me homefrom >the hospital after out-patient wrist surgery recently. She just doesn'tget >the fact that situational awareness (always knowing where every other caris

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>around you) is crucial to driving, and enhances the experience... :-) > >Try this once... learn to drive a manual correctly, then take an American >muscle car (oh... say a Cobra Mustang) out for a test drive. First try one >with an automatic, then one with a manual... then report back which was a >better "driving" experience... ;-) > >Dave

That means nothing...Crossing your hands isnt allowed in a test..but its much safer than shuffling and all that crap..the control you have over a vechicle using the "not" crossed hands schuffling technique is appualing...First thing id did after passing my test was cross my hands..Ten times more control...You ever tried correcting a large oversteer drift schuffling your hands..:)) hello hedge bye bye car.. Not everything your taught in a driving test has relevance or is the best way to control a car in the style with which you use it.. Auto's better than manuals...haha..Thats something my 80 year old granddad would say as hes lost the coordination to drive <G> Anyway yeah autos leave you in less control over your destiny on the roads in many situations.. Alpha Omega wrote in message ...

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>On Tue, 18 Apr 2000 12:40:04 -0400, "kevingav" <[email hidden]> >wrote: > >>Nonesense. Any competant instructor should rap the knuckles of anyone >>resting their left foot on the brake pedal, or clutch in a manual. > >We're not supposed to rest our foot against the brake. It's supposed >to sit on the floor, on the left of the break, where it can relaxe and >make fun of the right foot, which is doing all the work. :-) > >>The only competant argument for not left foot braking an auto is that a >>driver might get confused when switching back and forth from a manual. > >Nope. The best argument for right foot breaking is that it's much >easier to use and is safer. Pretty good reasons, if you ask me. > >>I left foot brake and clutchless shift my manual street car all the time.

I

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>>NEVER use my right foot on the brake in an automatic. > >If you had taken your automatic driving test in this country (UK), >you'd have learnt that left foot breaking is wrong. You can not use it >under test conditions. > > >Alpha Omega >E-Mail: [email hidden] >ICQ: 70300233

Yeah great motors a friends dad had one with a period shorrock supercharge conversion :)..he used to be a sales rep for truimph, no need to downchanges in that thing :)..If it would let you.. Truimph were the great innovators..the first 16v motor in the Dolly sprint..Fuel injection on the TR6..(there's a mans car..have to wrestle those, brutal handling :).Ive heard like a brick in porridge without mods :) )and every use of sychromesh etc..Truimph made some great cars..My old spitty's when the suspension was sorted and motor tuned for another 15-20bhp were a pretty awesome tool on a twisty road, very playful..As a few morgan plus 8's found out one day and the local GTi boys, much to my delight beating those horrid spotty boys who think they can drive as they wheelspin in town lots and have a nice stereo..PAH!:)..but thats another story.. DP David Erb wrote in message ... >I used to own a '64 Triumph TR-4a and it had synchros on all but firstgear.

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>Loved the way that big ol' tractor motor pulled though so there wasn't much >need to be downshifting into first except at stop signs. > >David > >"Dave Powell" <[email hidden]> wrote in message >news:rVJL4.971$[email hidden]... >> lol :)..i believe the triumph spitfire#s and herald had synchromesh as >early >> as 64...not on frist though..but dont quote me on that i know a

66spitfire

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>> had them but not on first till 72 or something... >> >> DP >> >> Stephen Ferguson wrote in message <8dmg6f$82ssi$[email hidden]>... >> > >> >Dave Powell <[email hidden]> wrote in message >> >news:fbnL4.269$[email hidden]... >> >> Well more like the spitfire box was brand new and very tight...and my >> >skills >> >> were less advanced back then....But still spitfire boxs and totally >> >> clutchless changes are hard, and the gears in a spitfire box do have >> >> synchros my friend (even first on my specially built close ratio )...I >> >tried >> > >> >The British had discovered synchromesh as long ago as 1967? :-) You >would >> >never know it with a MGB we had... crunch crunch crunch... where's �*%$! >> >first gear gone? >> > >> >> also i imagine that a classic race box use in a racing car would be >> >rebuilt >> >> after each race as when use in this manner they dont last 80,000miles >do >> >> they..even in a racers hands :) >> > >> >The straight-cut gears help a lot, but it's true they are rebuilt. >> > >> >Stephen >> > >> > >> > >> > >> >> > >

That's the straight road where they are turning the wheel all the time? Jens On Tue, 18 Apr 2000 09:27:29 +0100, "m.seery" <[email hidden]> wrote: >It's a Hollywood thing. >Havn't you ever seen them films where there are about 50 gear changes to the >mile as a car drives down a road at constant speed <G> > >MS --------------------------------------------- [email hidden] Remove "NOSPAM" before using my email-address JensSchumi homepage at http://members.xoom.com/JensSchu/ Racing simulation, esp. GPL Logitech Wingman FF optimization Classic cars, esp. Morris Minor Radio controlled airplanes

1. Lower fuel consumption, important incountries where the fuel is about 1US$/ltr. 2. More power left, important in countries where it's very hot all the time (air-cond full power all the time) and typical cars are about 1600 - 1800cc Jens On Thu, 20 Apr 2000 12:44:11 +0100, Alpha Omega <[email hidden]> wrote: >I still see no benefits of a manual car over an automatic. ><snip> --------------------------------------------- [email hidden] Remove "NOSPAM" before using my email-address JensSchumi homepage at http://members.xoom.com/JensSchu/ Racing simulation, esp. GPL Logitech Wingman FF optimization Classic cars, esp. Morris Minor Radio controlled airplanes

The "Shuffling" method is used to prevent people from driving so fast that they have to cross their hands <G> Auto's are for people who are too lazy to move a gear stick ;) -- Ian Parker [email hidden] [email hidden] == Dave Powell <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:FiKL4.998$[email hidden]... > That means nothing...Crossing your hands isnt allowed in a test..but its > much safer than shuffling and all that crap..the control you have over a > vechicle using the "not" crossed hands schuffling technique is > appualing...First thing id did after passing my test was cross my hands..Ten > times more control...You ever tried correcting a large oversteer drift > schuffling your hands..:)) hello hedge bye bye car.. > > Not everything your taught in a driving test has relevance or is the best > way to control a car in the style with which you use it.. > > Auto's better than manuals...haha..Thats something my 80 year old granddad > would say as hes lost the coordination to drive <G> Anyway yeah autos leave > you in less control over your destiny on the roads in many situations.. > >

That's the one <G> MS

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> That's the straight road where they are turning the wheel all the time? > Jens > >It's a Hollywood thing. > >Havn't you ever seen them films where there are about 50 gear changes to

the

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> >mile as a car drives down a road at constant speed <G> > >MS > --------------------------------------------- > Remove "NOSPAM" before using my email-address > JensSchumi homepage at http://members.xoom.com/JensSchu/ > Racing simulation, esp. GPL > Logitech Wingman FF optimization > Classic cars, esp. Morris Minor > Radio controlled airplanes

That's the one <G> MS "JS" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > That's the straight road where they are turning the wheel all the time? > > Jens > > On Tue, 18 Apr 2000 09:27:29 +0100, "m.seery" <[email hidden]>wrote: > > >It's a Hollywood thing. > >Havn't you ever seen them films where there are about 50 gear changes tothe

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> >mile as a car drives down a road at constant speed <G> > > > >MS > > --------------------------------------------- > [email hidden] > Remove "NOSPAM" before using my email-address > > JensSchumi homepage at http://members.xoom.com/JensSchu/ > Racing simulation, esp. GPL > Logitech Wingman FF optimization > Classic cars, esp. Morris Minor > Radio controlled airplanes

I LOVE F355 Challenge. I play it all the time here in Tempe, Arizona. Contrary to what you found, I feel it's exceptionally accurate. I'm proud to say that I've got all the best laps on all the tracks (except Motegi, the oval, I don't race ovals well at all!). On F355 Challenge (full sim mode), I've really got the heel-toeing down to almost perfect. I really don't think the inputs are off at all with the game, its probably just because you're responding to different stimuli as you said. When downshifting, if I'm braking at/close to the limit and don't use the throttle to keep the revs up, it gets really squirrely at the end of a braking zone. Long Beach, turn one is the harshest change! Also, you can't stomp on the brake pedal, the fronts will lock up (took me many $$$ to figure that out, and exactly how to get the braking technique down, probably more than most people would ever spend on a video game!) I'm with you on this one, Mark, F355 Challenge is the hottest sim out there! Todd http://PerformanceSimulations.com

I like the idea of a clutch, but more for spins than for starts. I kinda bugs me that the engine never stalls. The rest of the race is no clutching of course, just like real life. The other thing that bugs me is that I have a hard time regulating the revs in between gears. I don't know if it's because I don't know exactly when the car will be in neutral or if the game is doing it's own thing in there. But controlling the engine speed between gears is second nature for me in real life and not having that control in the game is unsettling. It's a technique that I have to do without. -- Mark Jeangerard www.soundchaserweb.com New Mexico, USA Harjan Brand <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:E0CK4.2342$[email hidden]... > Us GPL fans are all very proud of our hunger for realism but yet almost all > of us use one very big cheat when driving the car. There's nobody being a > hotlapper using the clutch, by doing that we can do left foot braking at > almost every part of the track which is totally unrealistic. Even in modern > racing left foot braking isn't a common good, it's used in F1, Rally and on > ovals. > > So why do we do it? Because it's possible I presume. I would like Papy to > offer a small patch which turns off the auto clutch and the auto blip so we > could do some real heel and toeing (or inside out as I do it). This would > really make things far more realistic and the times as well probably. The > only problem is that not many people have more that two pedals, but for > those who have it would be great, don't you think? > > I would have rearrange my Logi brake pedal and F1 Sim throttle so I could > heel and toe but that won't too much of a problem. I'll start using it from > now on. > > Oh and anyone wondering about the status of my little sim it's going very > slowly but I'm right on it. In about 5 years time I'll have a rolling car. > > Harjan. > > > >

So far the best I've driven is F355 Challenge. I had about 30 minutes with it on my last visit to Las Vegas. (There's a game room below the sidewalk in front of MGM that has two F355's linked for those who want to know. Maybe it's closer to the big Coke bottle. But it's right there on that side of the street. Can't remember the name.) F355 uses some sort of feed back to the brake pedal that is driven off the road conditions, I think. The clutch has a feel too, although it may be constant. Now I drive a manual tranny every day of my life. (I wouldn't risk my life with an auto.) Shifting with the clutch is first nature. It's like breathing. Haven't consciously thought about it in 20 years. I can get in any road car or on any bike and not think about it and go down the road flawlessly. In F355 Challenge I couldn't shift while braking to save my life. My brain was sent into huge fits of confusion at corner entry. The braking information was all wrong. I'm not sure what I respond too in a real car, probably G's, but this thing was off by a great degree. There's something dreadfully wrong when incorrect input is being interpreted. I mean, when the visual says one thing, the audio another, and the pedal feedback still another... well... there's nothing to gauge the performance by. Decisions are based on sensations that may or may not benefit the simulated experience. I have no doubt that 10 more hours would cure all that ails me on F355, but at the outset, it's not so easy to get that FF working right. Even on a 40,000 dollar machine. (Consider *that* for a moment. Could get a decent 308 for that.) -- Mark Jeangerard www.soundchaserweb.com New Mexico, USA Jan Verschueren <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:S9XK4.106701$[email hidden]... <snip> No, in that case you're still travel sensitive (pot). I'd like to see a > system using some sort of pressure transducer which translates the amount > of force I excert on the pedal to a reading for the game. I.e. where I don't > have to move my leg to modulate the brakes and can position the pedal in a > way which allows me to blip the throttle without nescessarily letting up on > the brakes (as is the case using my Nascar Pro pedals). > > Besides, you're talking home build again. Stop it already you guys. I'm an > electronics engineer... mechanical stuff spooks me. ;-) > > > What I would like to see is a reduction gear attached to the pot on my > > wheel so I could turn the wheel a full revolution or even 2 full turns > > like a real car. I just want it as close to real life as possible. > > It would be great practice for real life at a much lower cost then > > renting a track or burning gas all day. > > For sure, not mention the cost of repeatedly leaving the black stuff. ;-) > > Jan. > =--- > <Snip> > >

"m.seery" wrote:

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> > "Ian P" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > Talking about the Police and going wildly off topic, the US Police forces > > need to learn a thing or two about road safety, pushing the rear of the > > pursued car sideways to induce a fishtail at high speed is absolutely > > disgraceful. I'd be surprised if no one has been killed, an innocent > > bystander at that !! :( > > LOL. I have to say that in the age of the helicopter "spy in the sky, it's > all a bit histrionic isn't it?

It might be, if you knew what you were talking about. That maneuver is almost always done at very low speed, just after rounding a 90 degree corner. I have only rarely seen it done at more than 30 or 40 MPH, and never at anything that could be considered "high speed". -- pd

I learned to drive a stick playing Hard Drivin'. Remember that game? Woohoo!! F355 is fantastic, even though it's $2 a game here. I still stop by and blow $20-40 now and then. Surfin some sites, I found that even the Ferrari engineers thought it was an excellent re-creation of the car's handling. Does it roll too much? I hadn't noticed. It seems pretty flat to me. The pedals could use better feedback I suppose, but I still love it! ---Long Beach: low 1:07's on good days (best was about 1:06.900) ---Sugi: 1:27's Can't remember the others. I don't do quite as well at Monza, can't quite get that last sweeper down right. Think I got a few 1:48's at best (2nd place). Todd http://PerformanceSimulations Excellent site: http://www.draglist.com

yep.......precisely... I have driven both autos & manuals....found a few things.. 1. U lose a lot of control with autos.....most autos dun engine brake, so braking from 140kph into a 80kph corner, it's seriously scary!!!!! 2. When u need that serious injection of power, sometimes u stomp on the damn gas pedal, & the car goes nowhere!!! arrgh...this is esp. so when driving smaller capacity cars. So I suppose autos are for BIG cars(read: expensive, large, heavy, no fun) 3. When u talk about racing enthusiast, autos are out, unless u r talking about semi-auto, f1 type transmissions.(alritE!!!) just wondering, for those who drive autos. If u floor the gas pedal from a standing start, do u get a lag in between gear changes? I found so far in 2 cars: a BMW 530i & a Nissan Sunny 1.6, during hard acceleration, from 1st to 2nd to 3rd, it seems to lag about 2 sec when changeing. comments......... JS wrote:

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> 1. Lower fuel consumption, important incountries where the fuel is about > 1US$/ltr. > 2. More power left, important in countries where it's very hot all the time > (air-cond full power all the time) and typical cars are about 1600 - 1800cc > > Jens > > On Thu, 20 Apr 2000 12:44:11 +0100, Alpha Omega <[email hidden]> > wrote: > > >I still see no benefits of a manual car over an automatic. > > > <snip> > --------------------------------------------- > [email hidden] > Remove "NOSPAM" before using my email-address > > JensSchumi homepage at http://members.xoom.com/JensSchu/ > Racing simulation, esp. GPL > Logitech Wingman FF optimization > Classic cars, esp. Morris Minor > Radio controlled airplanes

I suppose the driving methods taught by the instructors are for the generally public, who dun need such excessive control techniques. Not everyone like us push every car we drive to the edge. Though I feel it should be made mandatory for every driver to go thru some advance driving course. I believe it will save many lives. Dave Powell wrote:

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> That means nothing...Crossing your hands isnt allowed in a test..but its > much safer than shuffling and all that crap..the control you have over a > vechicle using the "not" crossed hands schuffling technique is > appualing...First thing id did after passing my test was cross my hands..Ten > times more control...You ever tried correcting a large oversteer drift > schuffling your hands..:)) hello hedge bye bye car.. > > Not everything your taught in a driving test has relevance or is the best > way to control a car in the style with which you use it.. > > Auto's better than manuals...haha..Thats something my 80 year old granddad > would say as hes lost the coordination to drive <G> Anyway yeah autos leave > you in less control over your destiny on the roads in many situations.. > > Alpha Omega wrote in message ... > >On Tue, 18 Apr 2000 12:40:04 -0400, "kevingav" <[email hidden]> > >wrote: > > > >>Nonesense. Any competant instructor should rap the knuckles of anyone > >>resting their left foot on the brake pedal, or clutch in a manual. > > > >We're not supposed to rest our foot against the brake. It's supposed > >to sit on the floor, on the left of the break, where it can relaxe and > >make fun of the right foot, which is doing all the work. :-) > > > >>The only competant argument for not left foot braking an auto is that a > >>driver might get confused when switching back and forth from a manual. > > > >Nope. The best argument for right foot breaking is that it's much > >easier to use and is safer. Pretty good reasons, if you ask me. > > > >>I left foot brake and clutchless shift my manual street car all the time. > I > >>NEVER use my right foot on the brake in an automatic. > > > >If you had taken your automatic driving test in this country (UK), > >you'd have learnt that left foot breaking is wrong. You can not use it > >under test conditions. > > > > > >Alpha Omega > >E-Mail: [email hidden] > >ICQ: 70300233

oooooh......man.....I love that game... just that is cost $$$$$$$$$$ same with JTW, it was after many runs that I finally got something out of the braking instead of smashing into every armco barrier. but I still found the pedals too light for a race car, & the car rolls too much. First time out I tried going round Monza the way I usually do(okay, in GP2!). Left bits & pieces of the car all over the track. The car just doesn't go like an f1. But excellent game all round, even improve my driving on real cars! JTW62074 wrote:

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> I LOVE F355 Challenge. I play it all the time here in Tempe, Arizona. > Contrary to what you found, I feel it's exceptionally accurate. I'm proud to > say that I've got all the best laps on all the tracks (except Motegi, the oval, > I don't race ovals well at all!). On F355 Challenge (full sim mode), I've > really got the heel-toeing down to almost perfect. > I really don't think the inputs are off at all with the game, its probably > just because you're responding to different stimuli as you said. When > downshifting, if I'm braking at/close to the limit and don't use the throttle > to keep the revs up, it gets really squirrely at the end of a braking zone. > Long Beach, turn one is the harshest change! Also, you can't stomp on the > brake pedal, the fronts will lock up (took me many $$$ to figure that out, and > exactly how to get the braking technique down, probably more than most people > would ever spend on a video game!) > I'm with you on this one, Mark, F355 Challenge is the hottest sim out there! > Todd > http://PerformanceSimulations.com >

"Ian P" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:yPUL4.1359$[email hidden]... > The "Shuffling" method is used to prevent people from driving so fast that > they have to cross their hands <G> The correct term is the push-pull method Ian. It is taught not only to beginners but to Class 1 pursuit drivers in the British police force. If you can do it correctly, you are not shuffling at all but pulling the wheel round at a rapid rate of knots. I know that over here, there are far more criminals who end up in the hedge whilst engaging in pursuits than Cop cars <G> MS > > Auto's are for people who are too lazy to move a gear stick ;) Absolutely.

Yes Mark, I know the correct term ( I trained to be an ADI but decided to stay in my current job for the time being ) I was just quoting someone else who called it "shuffling" With regard to the Police not stuffing it into the hedge have you seen the speed they drive at, positively pedestrian <G> and the criminals are normally in underpowered cars and are usually more than slightly intoxicated / spaced out on drugs ;) To be fair the push- pull method is a safe method of steering the car, but ultimately is not the fastest, especially if you happen to get a bit sideways (just look to Rally driving for proof of that <G>) Talking about the Police and going wildly off topic, the US Police forces need to learn a thing or two about road safety, pushing the rear of the pursued car sideways to induce a fishtail at high speed is absolutely disgraceful. I'd be surprised if no one has been killed, an innocent bystander at that !! :( -- Ian P == m.seery <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:dFVM4.1288$[email hidden]... > > "Ian P" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:yPUL4.1359$[email hidden]... > > The "Shuffling" method is used to prevent people from driving so fast that > > they have to cross their hands <G> > > The correct term is the push-pull method Ian. It is taught not only to > beginners but to Class 1 pursuit drivers in the British police force. If you > can do it correctly, you are not shuffling at all but pulling the wheel > round at a rapid rate of knots. > > I know that over here, there are far more criminals who end up in the hedge > whilst engaging in pursuits than Cop cars <G> > > MS > > > > Auto's are for people who are too lazy to move a gear stick ;) > > Absolutely. > > >

"Ian P" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:5H1N4.3048$[email hidden]... > Yes Mark, I know the correct term ( I trained to be an ADI but decided to > stay in my current job for the time being ) I was just quoting someoneelse > who called it "shuffling" > With regard to the Police not stuffing it into the hedge have you seen the > speed they drive at, positively pedestrian <G> I certainly have Ian. My brother is in the Met and I went out with him recently as a civilian observer. I'd hardly call 95 mph through the streets of Uxbridge pedestrian. <G> Admittedly, it was on the night shift and not durng the rush hour. ;-) > > To be fair the push- pull method is a safe method of steering the car, but > ultimately is not the fastest, especially if you happen to get a bit > sideways (just look to Rally driving for proof of that <G>) True enough but it is arguable that requiring crossed hands on the wheel is a sign that you are driving way in excess of normal road driving speeds or levels of aggression. I'm not a total stickler and I would use this method in certain instances myself but not a matter of course in normal driving situations. > > Talking about the Police and going wildly off topic, the US Police forces > need to learn a thing or two about road safety, pushing the rear of the > pursued car sideways to induce a fishtail at high speed is absolutely > disgraceful. I'd be surprised if no one has been killed, an innocent > bystander at that !! :( LOL. I have to say that in the age of the helicopter "spy in the sky, it's all a bit histrionic isn't it? Cheers MS > -- > Ian P

But don't the Finns or somebody up there in Scandanavia use Police Cars with Harpoons on them? I really saw this in like Popular Science or Hustler...one of those really really informative magazines. dave henrie Pat Dotson wrote:

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> > "m.seery" wrote: > > > > "Ian P" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > Talking about the Police and going wildly off topic, the US Police forces > > > need to learn a thing or two about road safety, pushing the rear of the > > > pursued car sideways to induce a fishtail at high speed is absolutely > > > disgraceful. I'd be surprised if no one has been killed, an innocent > > > bystander at that !! :( > > > > LOL. I have to say that in the age of the helicopter "spy in the sky, it's > > all a bit histrionic isn't it? > > It might be, if you knew what you were talking about. That > maneuver is almost always done at very low speed, just after > rounding a 90 degree corner. I have only rarely seen it > done at more than 30 or 40 MPH, and never at anything that > could be considered "high speed". > > -- > pd

If I knew what I was talking about...... I'll tell you what I do know. At 20 mph, a child has a 90% probability of surviving an impact with a car. At 35 mph, a child stands a 5% chance of surviving an impact with a motor vehicle. At 40mph, a child surviving an impact with a car is an extreme rarity. If the police or any body else have total mindreading as a prerequisite skill and can account for the unforeseen in 100% of cases EG. children running out from behind parked cars, driveways, concealed entrances and the like then I don't know what I'm talking about I guess. There are far safer ways of immobilising a car in this day and age. Ever heard of a device called a stinger? MS "Pat Dotson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > "m.seery" wrote: > > > > "Ian P" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > Talking about the Police and going wildly off topic, the US Policeforces > > > need to learn a thing or two about road safety, pushing the rear ofthe > > > pursued car sideways to induce a fishtail at high speed is absolutely > > > disgraceful. I'd be surprised if no one has been killed, an innocent > > > bystander at that !! :( > > > > LOL. I have to say that in the age of the helicopter "spy in the sky,it's

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> > all a bit histrionic isn't it? > > It might be, if you knew what you were talking about. That > maneuver is almost always done at very low speed, just after > rounding a 90 degree corner. I have only rarely seen it > done at more than 30 or 40 MPH, and never at anything that > could be considered "high speed". > > -- > pd

If I knew what I was talking about...... I'll tell you what I do know. At 20 mph, a child has a 90% probability of surviving an impact with a car. At 35 mph, a child stands a 5% chance of surviving an impact with a motor vehicle. At 40mph, a child surviving an impact with a car is an extreme rarity. If the police or any body else have total mindreading as a prerequisite skill and can account for the unforeseen in 100% of cases EG. children running out from behind parked cars, driveways, concealed entrances and the like then I don't know what I'm talking about I guess. There are far safer ways of immobilising a car in this day and age. Ever heard of a device called a stinger? MS > > > Talking about the Police and going wildly off topic, the US Police forces > > > need to learn a thing or two about road safety, pushing the rear of the > > > pursued car sideways to induce a fishtail at high speed is absolutely > > > disgraceful. I'd be surprised if no one has been killed, an innocent > > > bystander at that !! :( > > LOL. I have to say that in the age of the helicopter "spy in the sky, it's

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> > all a bit histrionic isn't it? > It might be, if you knew what you were talking about. That > maneuver is almost always done at very low speed, just after > rounding a 90 degree corner. I have only rarely seen it > done at more than 30 or 40 MPH, and never at anything that > could be considered "high speed". > -- > pd

ROTFLOL MS "Bruce Kennewell" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > A _STINGER_, for Christ's sake!!!! You want the cops to take out afleeing

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> car with a MISSILE?!!! > > > > > > > Only kidding, Mark! :-) > > -- > Regards, > Bruce Kennewell, > Canberra, Australia. > --------------------------- > > m.seery <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:MSeN4.2344$[email hidden]... > > If I knew what I was talking about...... > > > > I'll tell you what I do know. > > At 20 mph, a child has a 90% probability of surviving an impact with a > car. > > At 35 mph, a child stands a 5% chance of surviving an impact with a

motor

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> > vehicle. > > At 40mph, a child surviving an impact with a car is an extreme rarity. > > > > If the police or any body else have total mindreading as a prerequisite > > skill and can account for the unforeseen in 100% of cases EG. children > > running out from behind parked cars, driveways, concealed entrances and > the > > like then I don't know what I'm talking about I guess. > > > > There are far safer ways of immobilising a car in this day and age. Ever > > heard of a device called a stinger? > > > > MS > > "Pat Dotson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:[email hidden]... > > > "m.seery" wrote: > > > > > > > > "Ian P" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > > > Talking about the Police and going wildly off topic, the US Police > > forces > > > > > need to learn a thing or two about road safety, pushing the rear

of > > the > > > > > pursued car sideways to induce a fishtail at high speed is > absolutely > > > > > disgraceful. I'd be surprised if no one has been killed, aninnocent > > > > > bystander at that !! :( > > > > > > > > LOL. I have to say that in the age of the helicopter "spy in thesky,

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> > it's > > > > all a bit histrionic isn't it? > > > > > > It might be, if you knew what you were talking about. That > > > maneuver is almost always done at very low speed, just after > > > rounding a 90 degree corner. I have only rarely seen it > > > done at more than 30 or 40 MPH, and never at anything that > > > could be considered "high speed". > > > > > > -- > > > pd > > > > > >

So I guess we should all drive 20mph or under... because a child could run out from behind a parked car, driveway or some obscure place and onto the road!! Your argument doesn't make sense. What Pat is trying to point out is that by doing the manuever at 30-40mph coming out of a sharp corner, they spin the car around on the road surface so as not to send the other car off the road. It makes total sense to me. Dave Ericson MomoBoy online JDB Racing "m.seery" wrote:

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> > If I knew what I was talking about...... > > I'll tell you what I do know. > At 20 mph, a child has a 90% probability of surviving an impact with a car. > At 35 mph, a child stands a 5% chance of surviving an impact with a motor > vehicle. > At 40mph, a child surviving an impact with a car is an extreme rarity. > > If the police or any body else have total mindreading as a prerequisite > skill and can account for the unforeseen in 100% of cases EG. children > running out from behind parked cars, driveways, concealed entrances and the > like then I don't know what I'm talking about I guess. > > There are far safer ways of immobilising a car in this day and age. Ever > heard of a device called a stinger? > > MS > "Pat Dotson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > "m.seery" wrote: > > > > > > "Ian P" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > > Talking about the Police and going wildly off topic, the US Police > forces > > > > need to learn a thing or two about road safety, pushing the rear of > the > > > > pursued car sideways to induce a fishtail at high speed is absolutely > > > > disgraceful. I'd be surprised if no one has been killed, an innocent > > > > bystander at that !! :( > > > > > > LOL. I have to say that in the age of the helicopter "spy in the sky, > it's > > > all a bit histrionic isn't it? > > > > It might be, if you knew what you were talking about. That > > maneuver is almost always done at very low speed, just after > > rounding a 90 degree corner. I have only rarely seen it > > done at more than 30 or 40 MPH, and never at anything that > > could be considered "high speed". > > > > -- > > pd

"David R. Ericson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > So I guess we should all drive 20mph or under... Not at all. A driver in control of his vehicle will have time to see things if he is being observant, anticipate and deviate from his course and speed. A car that is spinning has no chance of doing this in my humble opinion. >because a child could run out from behind a parked car, driveway or someobscure place and onto the road!! Your argument doesn't make sense I used the child scenario as a specific example. Given time, I'm sure that I could think of 1001 other instances where an out of control spinning car could be more than just a slight case of tyresmoke accompanying a simple rotation. . What Pat is trying to point out is that by > doing the manuever at 30-40mph coming out of a sharp corner, 30 to 40 mph out of a sharp 90 degree corner sounds like a fair lick of speed to me. >they spin the car around on the road surface so as not to send the othercar off the road. It > makes total sense to me. On British TV, I have seen this manoeuvre being performed on vehicles travelling in excess of 55 mph. Dave, I'm not going to get into any protracted argument over this issue. Let's just agree to disagree. Cheers mate MS

A _STINGER_, for Christ's sake!!!! You want the cops to take out a fleeing car with a MISSILE?!!! Only kidding, Mark! :-) -- Regards, Bruce Kennewell, Canberra, Australia. --------------------------- m.seery <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:MSeN4.2344$[email hidden]... > If I knew what I was talking about...... > > I'll tell you what I do know. > At 20 mph, a child has a 90% probability of surviving an impact with a car. > At 35 mph, a child stands a 5% chance of surviving an impact with a motor > vehicle. > At 40mph, a child surviving an impact with a car is an extreme rarity. > > If the police or any body else have total mindreading as a prerequisite > skill and can account for the unforeseen in 100% of cases EG. children > running out from behind parked cars, driveways, concealed entrances and the > like then I don't know what I'm talking about I guess. > > There are far safer ways of immobilising a car in this day and age. Ever > heard of a device called a stinger? > > MS > "Pat Dotson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > "m.seery" wrote: > > > > > > "Ian P" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > > Talking about the Police and going wildly off topic, the US Police > forces > > > > need to learn a thing or two about road safety, pushing the rear of > the > > > > pursued car sideways to induce a fishtail at high speed is absolutely > > > > disgraceful. I'd be surprised if no one has been killed, an innocent > > > > bystander at that !! :( > > > > > > LOL. I have to say that in the age of the helicopter "spy in the sky, > it's > > > all a bit histrionic isn't it? > > > > It might be, if you knew what you were talking about. That > > maneuver is almost always done at very low speed, just after > > rounding a 90 degree corner. I have only rarely seen it > > done at more than 30 or 40 MPH, and never at anything that > > could be considered "high speed". > > > > -- > > pd > >

Speaking of which, It's high time we started to think about how we are going to celebrate your 84th birthday as an when it comes :-) MS "Bruce Kennewell" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:3906c916$[email hidden]...

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> It wasn't a bad line for an old bloke, was it?!! (If I say so myself :-)) > > -- > Regards, > Bruce Kennewell, > Canberra, Australia. > --------------------------- > > m.seery <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:clhN4.2846$[email hidden]... > > ROTFLOL > > > > MS > > "Bruce Kennewell" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:[email hidden]... > > > A _STINGER_, for Christ's sake!!!! You want the cops to take out a > > fleeing > > > car with a MISSILE?!!! > > > > > >

It wasn't a bad line for an old bloke, was it?!! (If I say so myself :-)) -- Regards, Bruce Kennewell, Canberra, Australia. --------------------------- m.seery <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:clhN4.2846$[email hidden]... > ROTFLOL > > MS > "Bruce Kennewell" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > A _STINGER_, for Christ's sake!!!! You want the cops to take out a > fleeing > > car with a MISSILE?!!! > >

"m.seery" wrote: > > Speaking of which, It's high time we started to think about how we are going > to celebrate your 84th birthday as an when it comes :-) > > MS I just don't see how we can get a big bash put together by next week! dave ;) henrie "m.seery" wrote: > > >