Re: GPL: VROC race start chaos, solution: parade lap?

> Two problems: Only two? :-) I just think that when faced with a perpetual problem we should be trying to avoid it rather than just pretend it'll go away. > What if it where possible to make a proggy that makes everycar > start one second later than the one in front of him I'd rather someone hacked to code to make the mirrors work in F10 (which would be great for starts) or made the sideways glances instantaneous rather than panned. Overall though I'm not in favour of anything which makes life more complicated rather than less. The parade lap thing just seemed like something we could all do now requiring no effort <shrug>. Andrew McP

> The road courses are a different story. Well, I'm not suggesting a parade lap at the 'Ring or Spa, but it wouldn't take long to sort out which corner to "start" at if people were interested. Initial reaction (usually a good indicator) implies not <g>. Andrew McP

In article <lIiM4.12389$[email hidden]>, "Mike Barlow" <[email hidden]> writes: > Good suggestion. However, in a 15 car field, The leaders will be >lapping the "crashers" as the crashers are entering T1 for the first time. >So.... I hope you're not implying that the people on the tail end of the grid are just 'crashers'... :) Eldred -- Tiger Stadium R.I.P. 1912-1999 Own Grand Prix Legends? Goto http://gpl.gamestats.com/vroc Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

In article <[email hidden]>, Chuck Kandler <[email hidden]> writes:

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>Tim Vanhee wrote: >> >> What if it where possible to make a proggy that makes everycar start one >> second later than the one in front of him (or simple but well explained >> discipline,though I cant see that happen in pick up races). 2nd car on the >> grid starts one sec later then 1st car, 3rd 1sec later than 2nd etc... >> Qualifying would be very important. You would be able to see where the car >> in front of you is going. As most of us know: you can't win a race in the >> first corner. Starts will still be very important, but you will have more >> room, and there will still be places won in the start when some drivers >> screw up there starts. The top drivers will be past T1 before the wreckers >> will be able to hit them. >> How's that for an idea? Anybody listening? Alison? GPLEA? Noonan? > > >I like this one. Makes your qualifying position much more important as >well!

I'm usually last on the grid anyway. By the time I get started with this method, I'll be getting LAPPED...<g> Eldred -- Tiger Stadium R.I.P. 1912-1999 Own Grand Prix Legends? Goto http://gpl.gamestats.com/vroc Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

We know there's going to be a grid pile-up. We *know* halfway round T1 someone high on chocolate and Mom's orange juice with added tartrazine is going to take out half the field, and we know that the lucky few at the front will be about half a lap ahead by the time us mid-fielders get into the groove. So why not forget the formality of the standard race format and use the 1st lap as a parade lap. Those interested pull away from the grid as normal (so as not to annoy those who aren't interested or don't know/care), then pull over to the "wrong" side of the track, slow down to a sensible speed, and allow everyone else who's interested to form up. As soon as car 1 crosses the line at the end of T1, the race is on. (As if you need telling how parade laps work <g>). I doubt it's a foolproof solution, but it's something we can do *now* to reduce the frustration... though it'll be hard to retain qual positions accurately and some people may find this equally annoying. Personally I don't give a damn. Clean racing's all I want, don't care where I start or finish... as long as it's not in a ditch. Anyway, that's enough thinking out loud for now. Discuss :-) Andrew McP PS Paraders will not be forced to twirl batons, wear short skirts, and smile like their lives depend upon it...though you could if you wanted to. PPS Of course we'd be missing out on the thrill of a great start (and they are when no-one screws up), but it's a swings and roundabouts thing... you lose the start excitement, you gain a more orderly start to the race.

Two problems: 1. Fools are too ingenious. They'll still screw up the starts. 2. It would require concensus among the participants. Not bloody likely from what I can tell from the average field in a VROC pickup race. Regards, Brett C. Cammack That's Racing! Motorsports Pompano Beach, FL

<use the 1st lap as a parade lap> This works in our league races. We sometimes put a "no passing until" a certain corner also. But in a pick up race on VROC? Good luck. Good idea though; it works. Warm's up the tires too. Robert Gravel http://pages.infinit.net/robertg/index.htm Andrew MacPherson <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> > We know there's going to be a grid pile-up. We *know* halfway round T1 > someone high on chocolate and Mom's orange juice with added tartrazine is > going to take out half the field, and we know that the lucky few at the > front will be about half a lap ahead by the time us mid-fielders get into > the groove. > > So why not forget the formality of the standard race format and use the > 1st lap as a parade lap. Those interested pull away from the grid as > normal (so as not to annoy those who aren't interested or don't > know/care), then pull over to the "wrong" side of the track, slow down to > a sensible speed, and allow everyone else who's interested to form up. As > soon as car 1 crosses the line at the end of T1, the race is on. (As if > you need telling how parade laps work <g>). > > I doubt it's a foolproof solution, but it's something we can do *now* to > reduce the frustration... though it'll be hard to retain qual positions > accurately and some people may find this equally annoying. Personally I > don't give a damn. Clean racing's all I want, don't care where I start or > finish... as long as it's not in a ditch. > > Anyway, that's enough thinking out loud for now. Discuss :-) > > Andrew McP > > PS Paraders will not be forced to twirl batons, wear short skirts, and > smile like their lives depend upon it...though you could if you wanted to. > > PPS Of course we'd be missing out on the thrill of a great start (and they > are when no-one screws up), but it's a swings and roundabouts thing... you > lose the start excitement, you gain a more orderly start to the race.

What if it where possible to make a proggy that makes everycar start one second later than the one in front of him (or simple but well explained discipline,though I cant see that happen in pick up races). 2nd car on the grid starts one sec later then 1st car, 3rd 1sec later than 2nd etc... Qualifying would be very important. You would be able to see where the car in front of you is going. As most of us know: you can't win a race in the first corner. Starts will still be very important, but you will have more room, and there will still be places won in the start when some drivers screw up there starts. The top drivers will be past T1 before the wreckers will be able to hit them. How's that for an idea? Anybody listening? Alison? GPLEA? Noonan? Andrew MacPherson <[email hidden]> schreef in berichtnieuws [email hidden]...

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> > We know there's going to be a grid pile-up. We *know* halfway round T1 > someone high on chocolate and Mom's orange juice with added tartrazine is > going to take out half the field, and we know that the lucky few at the > front will be about half a lap ahead by the time us mid-fielders get into > the groove. > > So why not forget the formality of the standard race format and use the > 1st lap as a parade lap. Those interested pull away from the grid as > normal (so as not to annoy those who aren't interested or don't > know/care), then pull over to the "wrong" side of the track, slow down to > a sensible speed, and allow everyone else who's interested to form up. As > soon as car 1 crosses the line at the end of T1, the race is on. (As if > you need telling how parade laps work <g>). > > I doubt it's a foolproof solution, but it's something we can do *now* to > reduce the frustration... though it'll be hard to retain qual positions > accurately and some people may find this equally annoying. Personally I > don't give a damn. Clean racing's all I want, don't care where I start or > finish... as long as it's not in a ditch. > > Anyway, that's enough thinking out loud for now. Discuss :-) > > Andrew McP > > PS Paraders will not be forced to twirl batons, wear short skirts, and > smile like their lives depend upon it...though you could if you wanted to. > > PPS Of course we'd be missing out on the thrill of a great start (and they > are when no-one screws up), but it's a swings and roundabouts thing... you > lose the start excitement, you gain a more orderly start to the race.

Tim Vanhee wrote:

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> > What if it where possible to make a proggy that makes everycar start one > second later than the one in front of him (or simple but well explained > discipline,though I cant see that happen in pick up races). 2nd car on the > grid starts one sec later then 1st car, 3rd 1sec later than 2nd etc... > Qualifying would be very important. You would be able to see where the car > in front of you is going. As most of us know: you can't win a race in the > first corner. Starts will still be very important, but you will have more > room, and there will still be places won in the start when some drivers > screw up there starts. The top drivers will be past T1 before the wreckers > will be able to hit them. > How's that for an idea? Anybody listening? Alison? GPLEA? Noonan?

I like this one. Makes your qualifying position much more important as well! -- Chuck Kandler #70 K&S Racing http://www.fortunecity.com/silverstone/thepits/195 Competitor in the TopGear MGPRS2 league at: http://topgear.dhs.org/ Come on & join the fun! They'll call you names And spit in your face, But legends never die. --Gene Simmons

The GPVL online racing league uses a parade lap for the Oval tracks. Reason being that the Ovals are banked at the start and it only takes one driver to get a touch sideways to take the entire field out. With a parade lap, you have time to get started safely and group up with the rest of the field by the end of the first lap. Also, the parade lap is done in second gear between 55 and 75 mph (depending on the track). The way we start the race is by having the last driver on the grid type out "Go Go Go". This gives only the last place driver the advantage and as long as he has servived the parade lap, he's not going to take advantage of the start. The road courses are a different story.. It takes over a minute to complete a lap at race speeds, to run a pace lap it'll take way to long. Then add in the (pick up race) drivers who log on just a second before the start, they have no idea about the pace lap and will only crash everyone as the green flag drops. So, without the Sim it self having a pace car, there is no way a pace lap will work for pick up races. They work great for League races on Ovals, but not Pick up races. Andrew MacPherson wrote in message ...

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> >We know there's going to be a grid pile-up. We *know* halfway round T1 >someone high on chocolate and Mom's orange juice with added tartrazine is >going to take out half the field, and we know that the lucky few at the >front will be about half a lap ahead by the time us mid-fielders get into >the groove. > >So why not forget the formality of the standard race format and use the >1st lap as a parade lap. Those interested pull away from the grid as >normal (so as not to annoy those who aren't interested or don't >know/care), then pull over to the "wrong" side of the track, slow down to >a sensible speed, and allow everyone else who's interested to form up. As >soon as car 1 crosses the line at the end of T1, the race is on. (As if >you need telling how parade laps work <g>). > >I doubt it's a foolproof solution, but it's something we can do *now* to >reduce the frustration... though it'll be hard to retain qual positions >accurately and some people may find this equally annoying. Personally I >don't give a damn. Clean racing's all I want, don't care where I start or >finish... as long as it's not in a ditch. > >Anyway, that's enough thinking out loud for now. Discuss :-) > >Andrew McP > >PS Paraders will not be forced to twirl batons, wear short skirts, and >smile like their lives depend upon it...though you could if you wanted to. > >PPS Of course we'd be missing out on the thrill of a great start (and they >are when no-one screws up), but it's a swings and roundabouts thing... you >lose the start excitement, you gain a more orderly start to the race.

Good suggestion. However, in a 15 car field, The leaders will be lapping the "crashers" as the crashers are entering T1 for the first time. So.... Tim Vanhee wrote in message ...

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>What if it where possible to make a proggy that makes everycar start one >second later than the one in front of him (or simple but well explained >discipline,though I cant see that happen in pick up races). 2nd car on the >grid starts one sec later then 1st car, 3rd 1sec later than 2nd etc... >Qualifying would be very important. You would be able to see where the car >in front of you is going. As most of us know: you can't win a race in the >first corner. Starts will still be very important, but you will have more >room, and there will still be places won in the start when some drivers >screw up there starts. The top drivers will be past T1 before the wreckers >will be able to hit them. >How's that for an idea? Anybody listening? Alison? GPLEA? Noonan? > >Andrew MacPherson <[email hidden]> schreef in berichtnieuws >[email hidden]... >> >> We know there's going to be a grid pile-up. We *know* halfway round T1 >> someone high on chocolate and Mom's orange juice with added tartrazine is >> going to take out half the field, and we know that the lucky few at the >> front will be about half a lap ahead by the time us mid-fielders get into >> the groove. >> >> So why not forget the formality of the standard race format and use the >> 1st lap as a parade lap. Those interested pull away from the grid as >> normal (so as not to annoy those who aren't interested or don't >> know/care), then pull over to the "wrong" side of the track, slow down to >> a sensible speed, and allow everyone else who's interested to form up. As >> soon as car 1 crosses the line at the end of T1, the race is on. (As if >> you need telling how parade laps work <g>). >> >> I doubt it's a foolproof solution, but it's something we can do *now* to >> reduce the frustration... though it'll be hard to retain qual positions >> accurately and some people may find this equally annoying. Personally I >> don't give a damn. Clean racing's all I want, don't care where I start or >> finish... as long as it's not in a ditch. >> >> Anyway, that's enough thinking out loud for now. Discuss :-) >> >> Andrew McP >> >> PS Paraders will not be forced to twirl batons, wear short skirts, and >> smile like their lives depend upon it...though you could if you wanted

to. >> >> PPS Of course we'd be missing out on the thrill of a great start (andthey >> are when no-one screws up), but it's a swings and roundabouts thing...you >> lose the start excitement, you gain a more orderly start to the race. > >

Andrew. In my GPVL league, we run a pace lap on all the oval courses that we race on. All in all, This has been a good solution to cure the traction problems associated with getting off the line in a GPL car. I have to add that we also tried one experiment at the New Glen. A second gear multi car pile up was the result, induced by warping. "Andrew MacPherson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > > We know there's going to be a grid pile-up. We *know* halfway round T1 > someone high on chocolate and Mom's orange juice with added tartrazine is > going to take out half the field, and we know that the lucky few at the > front will be about half a lap ahead by the time us mid-fielders get into > the groove. This about sums it all up. There is nothing fundamentally wrong with the grids or circuits. It's the mentality of the drivers that causes problems. It is difficult to come to terms with the fact that after nearly 2 years of VROC , There is still a basic lack of comprehending that you cannot win at T1 on lap 1, but you can lose it and take out half the field around you.

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> > So why not forget the formality of the standard race format and use the > 1st lap as a parade lap. Those interested pull away from the grid as > normal (so as not to annoy those who aren't interested or don't > know/care), then pull over to the "wrong" side of the track, slow down to > a sensible speed, and allow everyone else who's interested to form up. As > soon as car 1 crosses the line at the end of T1, the race is on. (As if > you need telling how parade laps work <g>).

Better still, Try making some single, inline astern grids to stick on the servers. We in the GPVL have done this in the past and it works well. > > I doubt it's a foolproof solution, but it's something we can do *now* to > reduce the frustration... though it'll be hard to retain qual positions > accurately and some people may find this equally annoying. See above >Personally I > don't give a damn. Clean racing's all I want, don't care where I start or > finish... as long as it's not in a ditch. If it's clean racing you want, the simple answer is to join a clean league. You will never find a solution that all the bozos that frequent VROC will either comprehend or adhere to. MS

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> > Anyway, that's enough thinking out loud for now. Discuss :-) > > Andrew McP > > PS Paraders will not be forced to twirl batons, wear short skirts, and > smile like their lives depend upon it...though you could if you wanted to. > > PPS Of course we'd be missing out on the thrill of a great start (and they > are when no-one screws up), but it's a swings and roundabouts thing... you > lose the start excitement, you gain a more orderly start to the race.

[email hidden] (m.seery) wrote in <n_lM4.2779$VY2.63710@news2- win.server.ntlworld.com>: >This about sums it all up. There is nothing fundamentally wrong with the >grids or circuits. It's the mentality of the drivers that causes problems. >It is difficult to come to terms with the fact that after nearly 2 years of >VROC , There is still a basic lack of comprehending that you cannot win at >T1 on lap 1, but you can lose it and take out half the field around you. There's nothing unique or lacking about the drivers in vroc that cause this. In real life, at the highest levels of racing, with millions of dollars at stake, it still happens. IT'S RACING, It will always be that way. The standing start and all it entails is an exciting and potentially rewarding/disastrous part of the race which I wouldn't want to miss out on. What I would like to see is even more spaced out grids than the modified ones we now have, for safer starts, and to make qualifying a bit more meaningful. -- Don Scurlock Vancouver,B.C.

[email hidden] (Andrew MacPherson) wrote: > >We know there's going to be a grid pile-up. We *know* halfway round T1 >someone high on chocolate and Mom's orange juice with added tartrazine is >going to take out half the field, and we know that the lucky few at the >front will be about half a lap ahead by the time us mid-fielders get into >the groove. I tried a paradelap a few times. In the best case I was only taken out 3 times during that lap.... <g> IMO a paradelap will not work. The problem is with drivers who want to reach T1 as first, no matter at what cost. It's amazing that some drivers, who can't qualify better then 1:32 at Monza, try to overtake 8 cars before Curva Grande. For them cars will popup from everywhere, you're just sure you'll hit someone. And the most amazing part is that they consider themself good starters... With these drivers around, even after a paradelap you'll get a T1.... Remco

I think we all understand you frustration, but how bout this idea. Collisions would be turned off for the first half of the first lap. Then perhaps there would be a message on screen alerting to the fact that collsions were back on. I mean with lag you really have to floor it at the start, becaue you'll get rear ended if you don't and ignore that stalled car in front because it usually warps ahead anyway. Andrew MacPherson <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> > We know there's going to be a grid pile-up. We *know* halfway round T1 > someone high on chocolate and Mom's orange juice with added tartrazine is > going to take out half the field, and we know that the lucky few at the > front will be about half a lap ahead by the time us mid-fielders get into > the groove. > > So why not forget the formality of the standard race format and use the > 1st lap as a parade lap. Those interested pull away from the grid as > normal (so as not to annoy those who aren't interested or don't > know/care), then pull over to the "wrong" side of the track, slow down to > a sensible speed, and allow everyone else who's interested to form up. As > soon as car 1 crosses the line at the end of T1, the race is on. (As if > you need telling how parade laps work <g>). > > I doubt it's a foolproof solution, but it's something we can do *now* to > reduce the frustration... though it'll be hard to retain qual positions > accurately and some people may find this equally annoying. Personally I > don't give a damn. Clean racing's all I want, don't care where I start or > finish... as long as it's not in a ditch. > > Anyway, that's enough thinking out loud for now. Discuss :-) > > Andrew McP > > PS Paraders will not be forced to twirl batons, wear short skirts, and > smile like their lives depend upon it...though you could if you wanted to. > > PPS Of course we'd be missing out on the thrill of a great start (and they > are when no-one screws up), but it's a swings and roundabouts thing... you > lose the start excitement, you gain a more orderly start to the race.

In article <[email hidden]>, Chuck Kandler <[email hidden]> writes:

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>EldredP wrote: >> >> In article <[email hidden]>, Chuck Kandler ><[email hidden]> >> writes: >> > >> >I like this one. Makes your qualifying position much more important as >> >well! >> >> I'm usually last on the grid anyway. By the time I get started with this >> method, I'll be getting LAPPED...<g> >> > >Well, at least I'll have some company. ;-)

Cool - seeya on the grid...<g> Eldred -- Tiger Stadium R.I.P. 1912-1999 Own Grand Prix Legends? Goto http://gpl.gamestats.com/vroc Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

> I tried a paradelap a few times. In the best case I was only > taken out 3 times during that lap.... <g> Oh well, scrub that idea then. Andrew McP... off to play online Scrabble, where the only crash is when my dictionary falls off the desk <g>

> What I would like to see is even more spaced out grids Makes a lot of sense the more I think about it. Generally I don't do much qualifying...what's the point if you're going to have to shift-R twice in the 1st lap :-) Of course if I was a faster driver there *would* be a reason to qualify, as being at the front is a definite advantage! Andrew McP

> Collisions would be turned off for the first half of the first lap. I was hoping for a "ghost-racing" option in 1.2. Not a lot of fun for real racing, but I think it'd be quite popular. Fiddling with collisions would require rather more patience and skill with a hex editor than I possess. I *can* just about follow a slow-moving car for a lap though...well, most of the time :-) Andrew

> > There's nothing unique or lacking about the drivers in vroc that causethis. In > real life, at the highest levels of racing, with millions of dollars atstake, > it still happens. IT'S RACING, It will always be that way. Don. I totally agree with this statement. Racing accidents will always occur. In real life however, drivers try to ensure that they stay alive and that the sponsor signposted on the car will gain maximum exposure. This differs somewhat from the VROC mentality where you can almost guarantee an altercation of major proportions in almost every single race. It's high time that people dropped the shit or bust "I must attempt to lead into T1, regardless of the consequences" mindset. There is too little respect for other drivers and with little more than possible dented pride and ego at stake, too many think it's ok to have a pop into a gap that simply isn't there. People who are ahead on the grid are normally there for a good reason (IE they are faster). I'm not saying that you should not race with people ahead of you but with just a little more application of common sense on cold tyres, resulting outcomes would in general, become far more satisfactory for all >The standing start and all it entails is an exciting and potentiallyrewarding/disastrous part of > the race which I wouldn't want to miss out on. Nor any real racer. As I said before, I agree that accidents will always happen. People who never make mistakes aren't driving fast enough to be racing. however, It's high time that people started waking up to the fact that we cannot race if we do not have the racecraft to begin with. Crashfests should be a hazard, not an almost guaranteed eventuality. > What I would like to see is even > more spaced out grids than the modified ones we now have, for saferstarts, and > to make qualifying a bit more meaningful. Excellent idea. Cheers Mark > -- > Don Scurlock > Vancouver,B.C.

EldredP wrote:

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> > In article <[email hidden]>, Chuck Kandler <[email hidden]> > writes: > > > >I like this one. Makes your qualifying position much more important as > >well! > > I'm usually last on the grid anyway. By the time I get started with this > method, I'll be getting LAPPED...<g> >

Well, at least I'll have some company. ;-) -- Chuck Kandler #70 K&S Racing http://www.fortunecity.com/silverstone/thepits/195 Competitor in the TopGear MGPRS2 league at: http://topgear.dhs.org/ Come on & join the fun! They'll call you names And spit in your face, But legends never die. --Gene Simmons

[email hidden] (Andrew MacPherson) wrote in <[email hidden]>: >Generally I don't do much qualifying...what's the point >if you're going to have to shift-R twice in the 1st lap :-) Of course if I was a faster driver there >*would* be a reason to qualify, as being at the front is a definite advantage! > >Andrew McP It can be to your advantage to qualify regardless of how fast your are, because people who have done even one slow qualifying lap are gridded in front of non qualifiers. For example at Monza in a race with 20 people, often half haven't qualified. That will put you in front of half the field for turn one, assuming you get off the line decently. So always get in at least one qualifying lap, and practice your starting line launches, you'll be way ahead. -- Don Scurlock Vancouver,B.C.

How about just being most cautious. Leave room to the car infront and slowly slow down *before* the braking zone so your odds of getting punted will be much less then just jamming the brakes on at the proper time with a car 2 feet from your rear. If you see someone who is determined to pass or seem to be driving wreckless then let them pass. You'll probably see them stuck in a wall few turns later anyway. Andrew MacPherson wrote:

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> > > Collisions would be turned off for the first half of the first lap. > > I was hoping for a "ghost-racing" option in 1.2. Not a lot of fun for real > racing, but I think it'd be quite popular. Fiddling with collisions would > require rather more patience and skill with a hex editor than I possess. I > *can* just about follow a slow-moving car for a lap though...well, most of > the time :-) > > Andrew

In article <omqM4.2622$[email hidden]>, m.seery <[email hidden]> writes

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> >> >> There's nothing unique or lacking about the drivers in vroc that cause >this. In >> real life, at the highest levels of racing, with millions of dollars at >stake, >> it still happens. IT'S RACING, It will always be that way. > > >Don. I totally agree with this statement. Racing accidents will always >occur. In real life however, drivers try to ensure that they stay alive and >that the sponsor signposted on the car will gain maximum exposure. This >differs somewhat from the VROC mentality where you can almost guarantee >an >altercation of major proportions in almost every single race. It's high time >that people dropped the shit or bust "I must attempt to lead into T1, >regardless of the consequences" mindset. There is too little respect for >other drivers and with little more than possible dented pride and ego at >stake, too many think it's ok to have a pop into a gap that simply isn't >there. People who are ahead on the grid are normally there for a good >reason >(IE they are faster). I'm not saying that you should not race with people >ahead of you but with just a little more application of common sense on cold >tyres, resulting outcomes would in general, become far more satisfactory for >all > > >>The standing start and all it entails is an exciting and potentially >rewarding/disastrous part of >> the race which I wouldn't want to miss out on. > >Nor any real racer. As I said before, I agree that accidents will always >happen. People who never make mistakes aren't driving fast enough to be >racing. however, It's high time that people started waking up to the fact >that we cannot race if we do not have the racecraft to begin with. >Crashfests should be a hazard, not an almost guaranteed eventuality. > >> What I would like to see is even >> more spaced out grids than the modified ones we now have, for safer >starts, and >> to make qualifying a bit more meaningful. > >Excellent idea. >

I'll second that. Put them far enough apart, even if it means you're round the last bend at the back and can't see the flag. In that case you'll just have to wait for the cars ahead to move before you know the flag has dropped and there'll be no way you can get a jump on the car in front which is usually why the pile ups occur anyway. -- Peter Ives - (AKA Ivington) No person's opinions can be said to be more correct than another's, because each is the sole judge of his or her own experience.

> How about just being most cautious. If I'm any more cautious I'll be too scared to connect <g>. I start carefully (not slowly, but *certainly* not looking to make up any places on the grid... just survive!) But it only takes one eager semi-drunk to ruin the whole start for 2/3's of the field. That's why I thought the "full off to side side and form up" method might work for the 75% of the field who wanted a clean race. I think I misjudged the mood <g>. Andrew McP

> So always get in at least one qualifying lap Well, one laps's usually required to remind myself where I think I know the track well but don't. > and practice your starting line launches, you'll be way ahead. Now here we obviously have different experiences. As a midfielder I survive the majority of startline crashes by starting very carefully... and I see a lot of people using the same cautious technique. Of course if there's some dragster behind me this tactic doesn't work well. However both of us can usually survive a rear end nudge, but I very rarely survive running into a pack of ten closely locked cars caused by a failed dragster starting sideways with smoking tyres. Andrew McP

Absolutely Alan. This is the sort of reasoning that everybody should be adopting. Just as with real life driving, treat everybody else ats though they were an idiot, assume the worst and you get to stay alive longer MS "Alan Orton" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> How about just being most cautious. Leave room to the car infront and > slowly slow down *before* the braking zone so your odds of getting > punted will be much less then just jamming the brakes on at the proper > time with a car 2 feet from your rear. If you see someone who is > determined to pass or seem to be driving wreckless then let them pass. > You'll probably see them stuck in a wall few turns later anyway. > > Andrew MacPherson wrote: > > > > > Collisions would be turned off for the first half of the first lap. > > > > I was hoping for a "ghost-racing" option in 1.2. Not a lot of fun for

real > > racing, but I think it'd be quite popular. Fiddling with collisionswould > > require rather more patience and skill with a hex editor than I possess.I > > *can* just about follow a slow-moving car for a lap though...well, mostof > > the time :-) > > > > Andrew