Re: Tactile Feedback Seat Review

Eddie Pettit pettitfamily.org> <eddie@the<delete> wrote in message news:_EEM4.29714$[email hidden]... > Seat area: 16 deep x 20 wide > Back area: 17 tall x 20 wide > > Measurements are in inches, so you must do your own conversion. Thanks. Ice D

David L. Cook <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > I totally "spaced" the fact that there is also a stretchable strap in themiddle > of the back of the seat that's easy to slide over any chair IMO that holdsthe > back in place. That combined with the strap on the bottom holds the seatin > place very well without the top strap. According to the measurements in Eddie Pettit's message, it looks like a pretty tight fit. Here you can see my office chair: http://www.blok-interrek.nl/kantoor/kohl/multiclip/multiclip2.html As I said, it's gonna be tight, especially with regard to the width of the seat area. Do you suppose this thing is flexible enough to be slightly squeezed into place? Besides that, do you think it's worth the money? Thanks, Ice D

Thanks to both of you for your information. The ordering page seems to be unavailable right now, so maybe it's out of stock. That should however give me some time to think about buying this one, or maybe wait for version 2 (when is that going to be released?). Anyway, I'm in no rush. Thanks again, Ice D

Eddie Pettit pettitfamily.org> <eddie@the<delete> wrote in message news:WzwM4.29198$[email hidden]... > I finally did it, follow the link from http://www.proracingclub.com/N3/. I also checked out the official website: http://www.vrf.com/ I'm definitely interested, but I'm wondering if it *really* fits all seats. I'd hate to have it shipped to Europe, and then find out that it won't fit my chair (office model with armrests and high back). Too bad I couldn't find the exact measurements. Ice D

I finally did it, follow the link from http://www.proracingclub.com/N3/.

I finally did it, follow the link from http://www.proracingclub.com/N3/

Thanks. Ice D

There are two stretchy straps on the seat. One at the top and one that goes around the bottom. The bottom strap is adjustable. I found that the top strap was not even necessary because the seat sits very securely without it. Since my chair's back is too high to use it anyways (I also have an office chair), I just cut it off. The seat works fine without it and as stated before is very secure. --David Cook In article <3902e5c4$0$[email hidden]>, [email hidden] says...

Quoted text (15 lines)

> > Eddie Pettit pettitfamily.org> <eddie@the<delete> wrote in message > news:WzwM4.29198$[email hidden]... > > > I finally did it, follow the link from http://www.proracingclub.com/N3/. > > I also checked out the official website: > http://www.vrf.com/ > > I'm definitely interested, but I'm wondering if it *really* fits all seats. > I'd hate to have it shipped to Europe, and then find out that it won't fit > my chair (office model with armrests and high back). Too bad I couldn't find > the exact measurements. > > Ice D

Seat area: 16 deep x 20 wide Back area: 17 tall x 20 wide Measurements are in inches, so you must do your own conversion. "Ice D" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:3902e5c4$0$[email hidden]...

Quoted text (10 lines)

> > Eddie Pettit pettitfamily.org> <eddie@the<delete> wrote in message > news:WzwM4.29198$[email hidden]... > > > I finally did it, follow the link from http://www.proracingclub.com/N3/. > > I also checked out the official website: > http://www.vrf.com/ > > I'm definitely interested, but I'm wondering if it *really* fits all

seats. > I'd hate to have it shipped to Europe, and then find out that it won't fit > my chair (office model with armrests and high back). Too bad I couldn'tfind > the exact measurements. > > Ice D > > >

I totally "spaced" the fact that there is also a stretchable strap in the middle of the back of the seat that's easy to slide over any chair IMO that holds the back in place. That combined with the strap on the bottom holds the seat in place very well without the top strap. --David Cook In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] says...

Quoted text (25 lines)

> There are two stretchy straps on the seat. One at the top and one that goes > around the bottom. The bottom strap is adjustable. I found that the top strap > was not even necessary because the seat sits very securely without it. Since my > chair's back is too high to use it anyways (I also have an office chair), I just > cut it off. The seat works fine without it and as stated before is very secure. > > --David Cook > > In article <3902e5c4$0$[email hidden]>, [email hidden] says... > > > > Eddie Pettit pettitfamily.org> <eddie@the<delete> wrote in message > > news:WzwM4.29198$[email hidden]... > > > > > I finally did it, follow the link from http://www.proracingclub.com/N3/. > > > > I also checked out the official website: > > http://www.vrf.com/ > > > > I'm definitely interested, but I'm wondering if it *really* fits all seats. > > I'd hate to have it shipped to Europe, and then find out that it won't fit > > my chair (office model with armrests and high back). Too bad I couldn't find > > the exact measurements. > > > > Ice D >

If you did what I did, it will fit perfectly IMO. It is pretty flexible. The width of the seat area should not be a problem. As far as my thoughts on whether or not it's worth the money - It works great with N3, NL and GPL today. Going forward I think you can expect support in N4 and WSC. Intellivibe ROCKS. GPL does real good with Audiosense as well. I'm looking forward to the 2.0 controller which will be smaller and from what I hear even better at what it does. Now good luck on getting the 1.0 unit ;) Craig seems to be overextended at the moment. If he plans on being successful with this he better prepare for the demand when the 2.0 controller rolls out. --David Cook In article <39033e7d$0$[email hidden]>, [email hidden] says... > As I said, it's gonna be tight, especially with regard to the width of the > seat area. Do you suppose this thing is flexible enough to be slightly > squeezed into place? Besides that, do you think it's worth the money?

I agree with everything David has said. "David L. Cook" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > If you did what I did, it will fit perfectly IMO. It is pretty flexible.The > width of the seat area should not be a problem. As far as my thoughts onwhether > or not it's worth the money - It works great with N3, NL and GPL today.Going > forward I think you can expect support in N4 and WSC. Intellivibe ROCKS.GPL > does real good with Audiosense as well. > > I'm looking forward to the 2.0 controller which will be smaller and fromwhat I > hear even better at what it does. Now good luck on getting the 1.0 unit;) > Craig seems to be overextended at the moment. If he plans on beingsuccessful > with this he better prepare for the demand when the 2.0 controller rollsout. > > --David Cook > > In article <39033e7d$0$[email hidden]>, [email hidden] says... > > As I said, it's gonna be tight, especially with regard to the width ofthe > > seat area. Do you suppose this thing is flexible enough to be slightly > > squeezed into place? Besides that, do you think it's worth the money?

Eddie Pettit pettitfamily.org> <eddie@the<delete> wrote in message news:YlZM4.29884$[email hidden]... > I just received this... Some may find it of interest. Thanks for posting that message. I'll definitely wait for version 2.0 (I guess I have no choice...), but I think it's too bad the price is going up by 25%(!). Anyway, I hope they'll get their production up soon. Greetings, Ice D

David Karr <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:8e09q0$9nm$[email hidden]... > You'd probably want to take the loose change out of your pockets . . . and > move the cat. Don't forget haemorrhoids, you don't want those with this thing. (although it might enhance gameplay-intensity...) Ice D

I've read the reviews, visited the site, and followed the threads here, but nobody has said anything about how much noise it makes. Is it aurally intrusive, or is it fairly quiet (like, could you use it in your living room with headphones on while your spouse watches TV in the same room, for example)? I have an Aura Interactor, and while it is very cool, you are, in effect, sitting on a subwoofer, which means it SOUNDS like you're sitting on a subwoofer, which, in turn, means it's pretty intrusive. So how does the VRF compare, noise-wise? -- JB In article <_EEM4.29714$[email hidden]>, "Eddie Pettit" <eddie@the<delete>pettitfamily.org> wrote:

Quoted text (12 lines)

> Seat area: 16 deep x 20 wide > Back area: 17 tall x 20 wide > > Measurements are in inches, so you must do your own conversion. > > "Ice D" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:3902e5c4$0$[email hidden]... > > > > Eddie Pettit pettitfamily.org> <eddie@the<delete> wrote in message > > news:WzwM4.29198$[email hidden]... > > > > > I finally did it, follow the link from

http://www.proracingclub.com/N3/.

Quoted text (7 lines)

> > > > I also checked out the official website: > > http://www.vrf.com/ > > > > I'm definitely interested, but I'm wondering if it *really* fits all > seats. > > I'd hate to have it shipped to Europe, and then find out that it

won't fit > > my chair (office model with armrests and high back). Too bad Icouldn't

Quoted text (9 lines)

> find > > the exact measurements. > > > > Ice D > > > > > > > >

Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy.

I believe May/June was the scheduled release for Ver2, but who knows... Yeah, the order form is down, you'll have to call or email them for information. "Ice D" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:390366ae$0$[email hidden]... > Thanks to both of you for your information. The ordering page seems to be > unavailable right now, so maybe it's out of stock. That should howevergive

Quoted text (9 lines)

> me some time to think about buying this one, or maybe wait for version 2 > (when is that going to be released?). Anyway, I'm in no rush. > > Thanks again, > > Ice D > > >

Well since your not sitting on a speaker but rather on electric motors it's pretty quiet. but the vibrations it produces might make a noise by rattling things. It would depend on what kind of chair you have the type of floor and what is around you. The seat itself gives off a slight buzz sound. So I can't say for sure if it would be too loud or not but it is fully adjustable so you can turn it down if necessary. [email hidden] wrote:

Quoted text (51 lines)

> > I've read the reviews, visited the site, and followed the threads here, > but nobody has said anything about how much noise it makes. Is it > aurally intrusive, or is it fairly quiet (like, could you use it in > your living room with headphones on while your spouse watches TV in the > same room, for example)? I have an Aura Interactor, and while it is > very cool, you are, in effect, sitting on a subwoofer, which means it > SOUNDS like you're sitting on a subwoofer, which, in turn, means it's > pretty intrusive. > > So how does the VRF compare, noise-wise? > > -- JB > > In article <_EEM4.29714$[email hidden]>, > "Eddie Pettit" <eddie@the<delete>pettitfamily.org> wrote: > > Seat area: 16 deep x 20 wide > > Back area: 17 tall x 20 wide > > > > Measurements are in inches, so you must do your own conversion. > > > > "Ice D" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:3902e5c4$0$[email hidden]... > > > > > > Eddie Pettit pettitfamily.org> <eddie@the<delete> wrote in message > > > news:WzwM4.29198$[email hidden]... > > > > > > > I finally did it, follow the link from > http://www.proracingclub.com/N3/. > > > > > > I also checked out the official website: > > > http://www.vrf.com/ > > > > > > I'm definitely interested, but I'm wondering if it *really* fits all > > seats. > > > I'd hate to have it shipped to Europe, and then find out that it > won't fit > > > my chair (office model with armrests and high back). Too bad I > couldn't > > find > > > the exact measurements. > > > > > > Ice D > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ > Before you buy.

You'd probably want to take the loose change out of your pockets . . . and move the cat. -DK "Alan Orton" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

Quoted text (59 lines)

> Well since your not sitting on a speaker but rather on electric motors > it's pretty quiet. but the vibrations it produces might make a noise by > rattling things. It would depend on what kind of chair you have the type > of floor and what is around you. The seat itself gives off a slight buzz > sound. So I can't say for sure if it would be too loud or not but it is > fully adjustable so you can turn it down if necessary. > > [email hidden] wrote: > > > > I've read the reviews, visited the site, and followed the threads here, > > but nobody has said anything about how much noise it makes. Is it > > aurally intrusive, or is it fairly quiet (like, could you use it in > > your living room with headphones on while your spouse watches TV in the > > same room, for example)? I have an Aura Interactor, and while it is > > very cool, you are, in effect, sitting on a subwoofer, which means it > > SOUNDS like you're sitting on a subwoofer, which, in turn, means it's > > pretty intrusive. > > > > So how does the VRF compare, noise-wise? > > > > -- JB > > > > In article <_EEM4.29714$[email hidden]>, > > "Eddie Pettit" <eddie@the<delete>pettitfamily.org> wrote: > > > Seat area: 16 deep x 20 wide > > > Back area: 17 tall x 20 wide > > > > > > Measurements are in inches, so you must do your own conversion. > > > > > > "Ice D" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > news:3902e5c4$0$[email hidden]... > > > > > > > > Eddie Pettit pettitfamily.org> <eddie@the<delete> wrote in message > > > > news:WzwM4.29198$[email hidden]... > > > > > > > > > I finally did it, follow the link from > > http://www.proracingclub.com/N3/. > > > > > > > > I also checked out the official website: > > > > http://www.vrf.com/ > > > > > > > > I'm definitely interested, but I'm wondering if it *really* fits all > > > seats. > > > > I'd hate to have it shipped to Europe, and then find out that it > > won't fit > > > > my chair (office model with armrests and high back). Too bad I > > couldn't > > > find > > > > the exact measurements. > > > > > > > > Ice D > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ > > Before you buy.

Does your spouse own a vibrator? Well, imagine 3 or 4 vibrators on at the same time muffled between foam and cloth. Not all of the 8 or 12 actuators are on at the same time, I'm guessing 3 or 4 as an average to be on at the same time at full force. It's probably not really that bad, but you get the idea... <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:8e07al$2he$[email hidden]...

Quoted text (51 lines)

> I've read the reviews, visited the site, and followed the threads here, > but nobody has said anything about how much noise it makes. Is it > aurally intrusive, or is it fairly quiet (like, could you use it in > your living room with headphones on while your spouse watches TV in the > same room, for example)? I have an Aura Interactor, and while it is > very cool, you are, in effect, sitting on a subwoofer, which means it > SOUNDS like you're sitting on a subwoofer, which, in turn, means it's > pretty intrusive. > > So how does the VRF compare, noise-wise? > > -- JB > > In article <_EEM4.29714$[email hidden]>, > "Eddie Pettit" <eddie@the<delete>pettitfamily.org> wrote: > > Seat area: 16 deep x 20 wide > > Back area: 17 tall x 20 wide > > > > Measurements are in inches, so you must do your own conversion. > > > > "Ice D" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:3902e5c4$0$[email hidden]... > > > > > > Eddie Pettit pettitfamily.org> <eddie@the<delete> wrote in message > > > news:WzwM4.29198$[email hidden]... > > > > > > > I finally did it, follow the link from > http://www.proracingclub.com/N3/. > > > > > > I also checked out the official website: > > > http://www.vrf.com/ > > > > > > I'm definitely interested, but I'm wondering if it *really* fits all > > seats. > > > I'd hate to have it shipped to Europe, and then find out that it > won't fit > > > my chair (office model with armrests and high back). Too bad I > couldn't > > find > > > the exact measurements. > > > > > > Ice D > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ > Before you buy.

I just received this... Some may find it of interest. -------Original Message----- --From: VRF Corp. --Sent: Monday, April 24, 2000 10:29 AM --Subject: The long awaited update on the TFS Tactile Feedback System! -- -- --Hello! You are receiving this email because you have purchased --the TFS Tactile Feedback System. This email should do well in --answering your questions about the status of your order. If you --have received this email in error, or wish to be removed from our --early adopter email list, and/or wish to cancel the order that --corresponds to your email address, send an email --and we'll take care of it right away! Thank you. -- --I am Craig Thorner, the founder and president of VRF Corp., and --the inventor of the TFS Tactile Feedback System that you have --purchased. As always, I am the person who is responsible for --getting this system to you, and, in the recent past, for not --getting your system to you if you are still waiting. You can --quite safely blame me for all delays you have experienced. Over --the past few weeks email has been coming in so fast that we've --been able to make only very infrequent replies to incoming mail. --If you have sent in mail that has not received a reply, please --bear with us while we try to get caught up. -- --First, let me offer my sincere apologies to all of you who have --been reluctantly and patiently waiting for your v1.0 system. --Rest assured we are doing all we can to get our situation under --control. If you are waiting for delivery of a v1.0 system, --please send an email to make sure we're on top of --things where your order is concerned. More details on the v1.0 --and v2.0 status follows. -- -- -------------------------------------------------------------------- --HERE IS THE BAD NEWS ABOUT THE AVAILABILITY OF THE v2.0 CONTROLLER -------------------------------------------------------------------- -- --The bad news is the v2.0 controllers are not yet in mass --production. Our previously estimated April ship date has proven --to be too aggressive to meet. Some critical components are still --not yet delivered, and we can't go into mass production until --certain milestones come to pass. You have our word that we are --working day and night, 7 days a week, to get the v2.0 system --launched as soon as possible. We will begin to issue bi-weekly --updates on the status of the v2.0 system to keep you better --informed. Progress is being made daily in all areas of bringing --the system into mass production, and immediately thereafter, --delivering it to you. The situation has matured to the point --where, when we next announce an expected ship date, we should --meet it. We will have a new estimated ship date soon. We will do --our best to not create false expectations again. Nobody is more --disappointed than us about the v2.0 delays. -- -- ------------------------------------------------ --HERE IS MORE NEWS, NOT NECESSARILY GOOD OR BAD ------------------------------------------------ -- --Here is a quick recap: If you have elected to wait for the v2.0 --system, the price you will be charged when the v2.0 system goes --out to you will be $180 (plus shipping). If you have elected to --take the v1.0 system before the v2.0 electronic controller is --ready, the price you will be charged when your v1.0 system goes --out to you will be $180 (plus shipping). Your price will stay at --$180 with the free upgrade (shipping charge only) to the v2.0 --electronic controller when it becomes available. In other words, --you will be charged $180 for the TFS Tactile Feedback System. -- --With no affect upon your price, due to excessive and overwhelming --demand, we are increasing our price to $225 from the introductory --price of $180. However, as an early adopter, you price will stay --at $180, no matter what you decide to do. -- --As of this writing, we have pulled the order form on our website --down to prevent a further backlog from developing. This is what --we tried to avoid at all costs, but, we have no alternative if we --are to get a handle on the situation that has developed. -- --Make no mistake about it: We are thrilled about the interest in --our system. We just were not prepared for the overwhelmingly --positive reaction, given that we've made no efforts at --advertising or promotion (other than our web site). We still are --not registered with the major search engines, have made no press --releases of any kind, and are withholding many exciting --announcements for fear of generating publicity that would surely --distract us from getting the v2.0 system out. We'll take care of --all this when our production capacity matures, but for now, we --are forced to keep a low profile. -- -- ------------------ --INTELLIVIBE NEWS ------------------ -- --intelliVIBE has been adopted by Descent 3 and Jane's F/A-18 with --our new developer interface that is compatible with a new piece --of software called the "intelliVIBE Control Panel" that we'll be --distributing free to all our customers. The first active --component in the intelliVIBE Control Panel is the Falcon 4.0 --intelliVIBE module. We expect to begin distributing it shortly. --The intelliVIBE Control Panel has amazing new capabilities we can --now introduce into games and sims that offer intelliVIBE support. --It is now incredibly simple for software developers to make --intelliVIBE active in their software, and we have tremendous --flexibility in what we can make intelliVIBE do. The entire --structure of the intelliVIBE Control Panel is designed to allow --you to control how everything feels during intelliVIBE gaming --sessions, should you like to change the settings we give you. Of --course you can simply use it as is, with no adjustments at all. --It is up to you! -- --What does this mean for you? It means in the future we can --reasonably expect every self-respecting software developer to --make intelliVIBE active in their offerings. The intelliVIBE --Control Panel removes nearly all the burden from the software --developer. Even better, the nature of the intelliVIBE Control --Panel is that we can take your suggestions for what you'd like to --see, and we can implement your wish lists if we've missed --something of value. It also means that we can continually --improve pre-existing intelliVIBE modules as we flesh out our --software library. Great things await! -- -- ----------------------------------------- --MORE INFORMATION WILL BE COMING SHORTLY ----------------------------------------- -- --Please bear with us as we manage the v2.0 launch and handle the --v1.0 shipments that have fallen behind. We strongly reccommend --that you take delivery of the v1.0 system if you don't wish to --wait any longer. You can't lose with the v1.0 system. When you --get the v2.0 controller, you'll have a v2.0 system in all --respects. Only very minor changes have been made to system --outside of the electronic controller. You will definitely have --the v1.0 system sooner than the v2.0 once we get caught up (which --is our priority, second only to keeping as much forward pressure --on the v2.0 launch as possible). -- --In the next update we will include user reactions to the v1.0 --system so you can see what customers are thinking. We can't tell --you how pleased we are with the reaction to the TFS. If you are a --current v1.0 user and wish to make a statement that we can --include in the next update, please send an email with your --thoughts. Any and all contributions will be --greatly appreciated! -- --------------------------------------- --THANK YOU FOR YOUR CONTINUED PATIENCE --------------------------------------- -- --Thank you for your continued patience. It is our intention to --create the best gaming peripheral the industry has ever seen. --There is no doubt once you have this system, you will never want --to return to gaming without it. On that you have my sincere promise. -- --More information will will coming shortly... -- --Craig Thorner --Founder and President, VRF Corp., and inventor of the TFS Tactile --Feedback System -- -- -- -- "Ice D" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:3904178e$0$[email hidden]... > > David Karr <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:8e09q0$9nm$[email hidden]... > > > You'd probably want to take the loose change out of your pockets . . . and > > move the cat. > > Don't forget haemorrhoids, you don't want those with this thing. (although > it might enhance gameplay-intensity...) > > Ice D > > >

On Mon, 24 Apr 2000 01:39:18 GMT, Alan Orton <[email hidden]> wrote: >Well since your not sitting on a speaker but rather on electric motors >it's pretty quiet. but the vibrations it produces might make a noise by >rattling things. Sounds like something I wouldn't want my wife to find out about.... Regards, Brett C. Cammack That's Racing! Motorsports Pompano Beach, FL

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] (Brett C. Cammack) writes:

Quoted text (8 lines)

>On Mon, 24 Apr 2000 01:39:18 GMT, Alan Orton <[email hidden]> wrote: > >>Well since your not sitting on a speaker but rather on electric motors >>it's pretty quiet. but the vibrations it produces might make a noise by >>rattling things. > >Sounds like something I wouldn't want my wife to find out about.... >

Well, at least she'd be *happy* about one of your purchases...<g> Eldred -- Tiger Stadium R.I.P. 1912-1999 Own Grand Prix Legends? Goto http://gpl.gamestats.com/vroc Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

EldredP <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

Quoted text (20 lines)

> In article <[email hidden]>, > [email hidden] (Brett C. Cammack) writes: > > >On Mon, 24 Apr 2000 01:39:18 GMT, Alan Orton <[email hidden]> wrote: > > > >>Well since your not sitting on a speaker but rather on electric motors > >>it's pretty quiet. but the vibrations it produces might make a noise by > >>rattling things. > > > >Sounds like something I wouldn't want my wife to find out about.... > > > > Well, at least she'd be *happy* about one of your purchases...<g> > > Eldred > -- > Tiger Stadium R.I.P. 1912-1999 > Own Grand Prix Legends? Goto http://gpl.gamestats.com/vroc > > Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats

you > with experience... If it's artificially reproduced sensations you desire, turn your speakers up, sit on 'em, making sure you wear your old trousers, and play away! P.S. I haven't tried this, honest, the idea is gleaned from Howard Stern. Happy Sensations. Iain.

In article <8ekrg3$juf$[email hidden]>, "Iain Evans" <[email hidden]> writes:

Quoted text (26 lines)

>> >>Well since your not sitting on a speaker but rather on electric motors >> >>it's pretty quiet. but the vibrations it produces might make a noise by >> >>rattling things. >> > >> >Sounds like something I wouldn't want my wife to find out about.... >> > >> >> Well, at least she'd be *happy* about one of your purchases...<g> >> >> Eldred >> -- >> Tiger Stadium R.I.P. 1912-1999 >> Own Grand Prix Legends? Goto http://gpl.gamestats.com/vroc >> >> Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats >you >> with experience... > >If it's artificially reproduced sensations you desire, turn your speakers >up, sit on 'em, making sure you wear your old trousers, and play away! > >P.S. I haven't tried this, honest, the idea is gleaned from Howard Stern. > >Happy Sensations. > >Iain.

It wouldn't be MY purchase. I can't see spending money on a Thunderseat, or something like that... Eldred -- Tiger Stadium R.I.P. 1912-1999 Own Grand Prix Legends? Goto http://gpl.gamestats.com/vroc Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.