Re: Just another GPL post

Finally! I was waiting all day for this post :) Where's D.G.F.? J.

Yesterday a friend of mine called me, and asked me to race F1 2000 online with him later that evening. I asked him which track he wanted to drive on, and he chose Barcelona. Allthough I like F1 2000, I haven't played it very much, maybe for 10-20 hours in total. I never drove on the Barcelona track before, and I didn't even know the layout of the track. So I started practising. After 5 laps or so I knew the layout of the track and I could start on improving my lap times. 1.26, 1.24, 1.22, every lap my times got faster. I wondered what a good laptime would be, so I went to www.bhmotorsports.com. I downloaded a couple of setups and a barcelona 1.16 replay. Watched the replay a couple of times, remembered how the guy drove his car, and started practising using his setup. Withing half an hour I also drove 1.16 laps. My friend called me later that evening, and asked me how I was doing. I told him about my 1.16 pb, and he didn't believe me, his pb was 1.21. I told him about how I did it, by watching someone else's replay and using his setup. Then it was simply a question of remembering his driving line. He didn't think this was fair, everybody could do it this way. And I agree with him. Like allmost every other driving game, it's just about practising a lot, and in the end everybody can drive superfast laptimes, even without knowing anything about car physics. Strange thing is, in GPL, I'm still stuck at 1.27.77 as my pb at Monza. I watched hundreds of replays, used numerous hotshot setups, but still I'm far away from that 1.26 lap. After 2 years of practising every single day! As far as I'm concenred, GPL is the only sim which requires not only lots of practice, but also a very good understanding of car physics, and a dosis of talent. Driving on the edge by playing very carefully with the brake and the throttle, by feeling what the car does and is going to do, is the way to get those lap records. After I drove a 1.16 lap with F1 2000 I didn't have any victorious feelings. It was just a little bit practising and didn't demand any skills or talent, just practise. But when I drove a 1.27 on Monza in GPL for the first time I knew I deserved it, that I worked for it, that I finally started to understand something about handling a car at high speed. Same as for f1 2000 goes for Porsche 2000. I had lots of fun with this great game, but with the driving skills test it was also just a question of lots of practise. I had a hard time with those 360 spins in the GT1, untill someone here on RAS posted how to do it. After I read this, I succeeded on the first try. But I don't think I would have succeeded if I tried this out in a real GT1 car... I'm not too sure what to think of rc2000. I like it very much, no doubt, but does it have anything to do with driving skills, or is it more a question of having good reflexes, and perhaps a little bit of luck? After thinking about this, I started to realize that it's not the fault of these simulations. Driving a f1 car in F1 2000 doesn't give me half the satisfaction as driving a Lotus 49 does. In a Lotus I have allmost no downforce, I have to work that car around the corner. A Lotus 49 in GPL feels like pure racing, a modern f1 car in F1 2000 feels like a Go Kart driving ten times as fast. Driving in F1 2000 is fun, driving in RC2000 is exciting, driving in GPL is pure art. I like GPL. Andre PS: After I told my friend I drove a 1.16 lap on barcelona in F1 2000, he suggested a GPL online race instead, and we had lots of fun at Indianapolis :)

I think he fainted after reading my post... Andre On Wed, 26 Apr 2000 16:09:24 +0200, Jan Hovius <[email hidden]> wrote:

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>Finally! > >I was waiting all day for this post :) > >Where's D.G.F.? > >J. > >

I agree with u about GPL of course but........ How long did it take the GPL'ers to hit 1:26's at Monza? F1 2000 hasn't been out long enough to have some real fast hotlaps IMO then again, Andre, perhaps it has, and if so.. LONG LIVE GPL +) Md Andre Warringa wrote:

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> > I think he fainted after reading my post... > > Andre > > On Wed, 26 Apr 2000 16:09:24 +0200, Jan Hovius > <[email hidden]> wrote: > > >Finally! > > > >I was waiting all day for this post :) > > > >Where's D.G.F.? > > > >J. > > > >

It took a couple of months before the 1.26 was hit for the first time (what was his name again... not Woeger but Sasa Something...) but those 1.27 in GPL were made very soon. In F1 2000 I can drive 1.16 at Barca without a problem after not more than 1 hour of practice... maybe I'm just good... nah. Andre On Wed, 26 Apr 2000 14:50:48 GMT, Martyn Danby <[email hidden]> wrote:

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>I agree with u about GPL of course but........ > > >How long did it take the GPL'ers to hit 1:26's at Monza? > >F1 2000 hasn't been out long enough to have some real fast hotlaps IMO >then again, Andre, perhaps it has, and if so.. > >LONG LIVE GPL +) > > >Md > >Andre Warringa wrote: >> >> I think he fainted after reading my post... >> >> Andre >> >> On Wed, 26 Apr 2000 16:09:24 +0200, Jan Hovius >> <[email hidden]> wrote: >> >> >Finally! >> > >> >I was waiting all day for this post :) >> > >> >Where's D.G.F.? >> > >> >J. >> > >> >

Martyn Danby wrote:

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> > I agree with u about GPL of course but........ > > How long did it take the GPL'ers to hit 1:26's at Monza? > > F1 2000 hasn't been out long enough to have some real fast hotlaps IMO > then again, Andre, perhaps it has, and if so..

He DL'ed that replay from BHMotorsports, that means that it's probably Jure who has driven that lap, trust me, it's more than likely fast...hell, he's almost as fast as I am :-))) Beers and cheers (uncle) Goy "Team Mirage" http://www.teammirage.com/ "The Pits" http://www.theuspits.com/ * Spam is for losers who can't get business any other way * "Spamkiller" http://www.spamkiller.com

Goy Larsen wrote: > > > He DL'ed that replay from BHMotorsports, that means that it's probably > Jure who has driven that lap, trust me, it's more than likely > fast...hell, he's almost as fast as I am :-))) > Whew that means he's up there in just about my category as well! dave rotflmaoticacs henrie

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> Beers and cheers > (uncle) Goy > > "Team Mirage" http://www.teammirage.com/ > "The Pits" http://www.theuspits.com/ > > * Spam is for losers who can't get business any other way * > "Spamkiller" http://www.spamkiller.com

Dave Henrie wrote:

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> > Goy Larsen wrote: > > > > > > He DL'ed that replay from BHMotorsports, that means that it's probably > > Jure who has driven that lap, trust me, it's more than likely > > fast...hell, he's almost as fast as I am :-))) > > > Whew that means he's up there in just about my category as well! > dave rotflmaoticacs henrie

If you'd just dump that "pieceoshit Dodge" you insist on driving, that could well be true, they sucked in real life, they suck in TPTCC :-))) Beers and cheers (uncle) Goy "Team Mirage" http://www.teammirage.com/ "The Pits" http://www.theuspits.com/ * Spam is for losers who can't get business any other way * "Spamkiller" http://www.spamkiller.com

+) heh some good points there about RC Remember James Bond driving the AMC in man with the Golden Gun? Where he jumps the canal doing a spiral at the same time. Well you can do that in RC and drive away without a scratch in sim mode. Was a big surprise when i did it in the Puma. The sensation of speed is awesome in RC as well, when barrelling through the narrow treed areas I just get lost in RC world nothing can distract me. I find the steering weird to say the least, seems like a joypad would steer the car as well as my wheel, and the automatic selection of neutral when u come hit something can be annoying as well. But apart from those 2 complaints I rate it highly on the fun scale. Md Jan Verschueren wrote:

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> > No, no luck is involved, RC2000 is like a casino: the odds are stacked > against you to begin with. > > I like it, I like it a lot. It's graphically stunning, the sense of speed is > pants filling, it's got a good sim mode and the weather effects are well > done. But, it is fundamentally hosed... damage is way off, in the A5 and A6 > class the same AI driver always wins (and no way, he/she can outpace me by 6 > seconds per mile in the same car and conditions BTW) and the pace notes are > WAY off in places. How does tearing around a right 1 at 110mph and getting > the message "30 , right 5, caution, bank." sound to you?. By the time > Claire'd said it my Civic was embedded in the landscape. ;-) > > While on one hand you survive major off's like that with relative little > damage, the reliability of the car is piss poor. It would be interesting to > know where the developers got their data because running half of Pundershaw > with 2nd and 3rd missing eventhough I replaced the gearbox at the last > service is no fun at all. What happened to holding it in gear like you could > in Network Q? With service time being sparse I think the odds are pretty > much stacked against the player ever getting even a class win. Still trying > to is fun. > > All in all a great game, but some issues remain. I'm seriously thinking > about compiling a "Rally Game Wish List". > > Jan. > =--- > Andre Warringa <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > <snip> > > I'm not too sure what to think of rc2000. I like it very much, no > > doubt, but does it have anything to do with driving skills, or is it > > more a question of having good reflexes, and perhaps a little bit of > > luck?

No, no luck is involved, RC2000 is like a casino: the odds are stacked against you to begin with. I like it, I like it a lot. It's graphically stunning, the sense of speed is pants filling, it's got a good sim mode and the weather effects are well done. But, it is fundamentally hosed... damage is way off, in the A5 and A6 class the same AI driver always wins (and no way, he/she can outpace me by 6 seconds per mile in the same car and conditions BTW) and the pace notes are WAY off in places. How does tearing around a right 1 at 110mph and getting the message "30 , right 5, caution, bank." sound to you?. By the time Claire'd said it my Civic was embedded in the landscape. ;-) While on one hand you survive major off's like that with relative little damage, the reliability of the car is piss poor. It would be interesting to know where the developers got their data because running half of Pundershaw with 2nd and 3rd missing eventhough I replaced the gearbox at the last service is no fun at all. What happened to holding it in gear like you could in Network Q? With service time being sparse I think the odds are pretty much stacked against the player ever getting even a class win. Still trying to is fun. All in all a great game, but some issues remain. I'm seriously thinking about compiling a "Rally Game Wish List". Jan. =--- Andre Warringa <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > <snip> > I'm not too sure what to think of rc2000. I like it very much, no > doubt, but does it have anything to do with driving skills, or is it > more a question of having good reflexes, and perhaps a little bit of > luck?

In article <[email hidden]>, Andre Warringa <[email hidden]> writes <snip> >Strange thing is, in GPL, I'm still stuck at 1.27.77 as my pb at >Monza. I watched hundreds of replays, used numerous hotshot setups, >but still I'm far away from that 1.26 lap. After 2 years of practising >every single day! > I know the feeling. I finally managed to get into the 1:27s after downloading some hotshoe setups a couple of months ago and am now at 1:27.69, but I can't figure out how, over the course of what really only amounts to 4 corners that I can lose so much time. Hell, I've managed a 1:19.24 at Kyalami, which is a much more technical circuit and my PBs for the main circuits are just in or outside the top 40 hotlaps at Schubi's site. I really feel like I'm on the limit at Monza and have actually equalled my pb and been with 1 tenth on numerous occasions. That track is really starting to bug me. :) I haven't as yet d/l any replays, but I reckon that is going to be my next step. On all other circuits I have still been able to find improvements everytime I have returned to them to do some hotlapping, but Monza is the first track that I have gone back to and not got any quicker. However, (arches back, raises fists to the heavens and in a very loud voice) I WILL NOT BE BEATEN! <g> <snip> -- Peter Ives - (AKA Ivington) No person's opinions can be said to be more correct than another's, because each is the sole judge of his or her own experience.

>Are you sure? >David G Fisher Are you sure, David G Fisher? -- Cheers! Graeme Nash

Get the latest patch! It lets you set just about anything you want, esp. damage levels, turn off the sticky grass, remove the stupid auto-neutral, etc. HTH, Kendt In article <[email hidden]>, Martyn Danby <[email hidden]> wrote:

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> +) heh some good points there about RC > > Remember James Bond driving the AMC in man with the Golden Gun? Where > he jumps the canal doing a spiral at the same time. Well you can do > that in RC and drive away without a scratch in sim mode. Was a big > surprise when i did it in the Puma. > The sensation of speed is awesome in RC as well, when barrelling

through > the narrow treed areas I just get lost in RC world nothing candistract

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> me. > I find the steering weird to say the least, seems like a joypad would > steer the car as well as my wheel, and the automatic selection of > neutral when u come hit something can be annoying as well. But apart > from those 2 complaints I rate it highly on the fun scale. > > Md > > Jan Verschueren wrote: > > > > No, no luck is involved, RC2000 is like a casino: the odds are

stacked > > against you to begin with. > > > > I like it, I like it a lot. It's graphically stunning, the sense ofspeed is > > pants filling, it's got a good sim mode and the weather effects arewell > > done. But, it is fundamentally hosed... damage is way off, in the A5and A6 > > class the same AI driver always wins (and no way, he/she can outpaceme by 6 > > seconds per mile in the same car and conditions BTW) and the pacenotes are > > WAY off in places. How does tearing around a right 1 at 110mph andgetting > > the message "30 , right 5, caution, bank." sound to you?. By thetime > > Claire'd said it my Civic was embedded in the landscape. ;-) > > > > While on one hand you survive major off's like that with relativelittle > > damage, the reliability of the car is piss poor. It would beinteresting to > > know where the developers got their data because running half ofPundershaw > > with 2nd and 3rd missing eventhough I replaced the gearbox at thelast > > service is no fun at all. What happened to holding it in gear likeyou could > > in Network Q? With service time being sparse I think the odds arepretty > > much stacked against the player ever getting even a class win. Stilltrying > > to is fun. > > > > All in all a great game, but some issues remain. I'm seriouslythinking

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> > about compiling a "Rally Game Wish List". > > > > Jan. > > =--- > > Andre Warringa <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:[email hidden]... > > > <snip> > > > I'm not too sure what to think of rc2000. I like it very much, no > > > doubt, but does it have anything to do with driving skills, or is

it > > > more a question of having good reflexes, and perhaps a little bitof > > > luck? > Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy.

Are you sure, David G Fisher? -- Cheers! Graeme Nash

He fell asleep halfway through the post. David G Fisher "Jan Hovius" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> Finally! > > I was waiting all day for this post :) > > Where's D.G.F.? > > J. > >

"Andre Warringa" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... You say other sims only require practice to be fast, yet you make the statement below. Every one of the fastest GPL drivers has at least a few thousand hours behind the wheel.

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> > Strange thing is, in GPL, I'm still stuck at 1.27.77 as my pb at > Monza. I watched hundreds of replays, used numerous hotshot setups, > but still I'm far away from that 1.26 lap. > After 2 years of practising > every single day!

You might of mentioned this a long time ago so I wouldn't have bothered wasting time trying to debate with you about sims with a fanatic. > As far as I'm concenred, GPL is the only sim which requires not only > lots of practice, but also a very good understanding of car physics, > and a dosis of talent. Driving on the edge by playing very carefully > with the brake and the throttle, by feeling what the car does and is > going to do, is the way to get those lap records. Don't forget the hundreds and hundreds of hours, and thousands of laps that those recored holders have in their pocket. I've said it before, GPL is no different to me than any other sim or ARCADE racing game I've ever experienced. As long as I'm sitting in front of a computer monitor in my socks, and unaffected physically, than they are all basically the same. When it comes to car sims, you and some others here have lower standards than I do, which is why you have a hard time understanding my views on physics and realism. > After I drove a 1.16 lap with F1 2000 I didn't have any victorious > feelings. It was just a little bit practising and didn't demand any > skills or talent, just practise. But when I drove a 1.27 on Monza in > GPL for the first time I knew I deserved it, that I worked for it, > that I finally started to understand something about handling a car at > high speed. Someone here at r.a.s. (sorry, forgot who it was) has a 10 year old who did a 1:29 (or maybe a1:31 which is still fast enough to make my point) at Monza recently. My neighbor did a 1:29 after an hour with the sim. I did a lap which was half a second slower than your pb after barely touching the sim for the past year. Guys like you practice thousands of laps and then claim that GPL drivers are the best and doing something amazing? That's a joke. Newsflash for you Andre. For every one decent GPL driver, there are thousands of pimple faced arcade racing game fans who can rip them apart. > Driving in F1 2000 is fun, driving in RC2000 is exciting, driving in > GPL is pure art. Pure art? That's lovely. > I like GPL. Are you sure? David G Fisher

BTW, who said 1:16 was the record lap for Spain. The sim was just recently released. David G Fisher "David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:QL0O4.155610$[email hidden]...

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> > "Andre Warringa" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > > You say other sims only require practice to be fast, yet you make the > statement below. Every one of the fastest GPL drivers has at least a few > thousand hours behind the wheel. > > > > > Strange thing is, in GPL, I'm still stuck at 1.27.77 as my pb at > > Monza. I watched hundreds of replays, used numerous hotshot setups, > > but still I'm far away from that 1.26 lap. > > > After 2 years of practising > > every single day! > > You might of mentioned this a long time ago so I wouldn't have bothered > wasting time trying to debate with you about sims with a fanatic. > > > > As far as I'm concenred, GPL is the only sim which requires not only > > lots of practice, but also a very good understanding of car physics, > > and a dosis of talent. Driving on the edge by playing very carefully > > with the brake and the throttle, by feeling what the car does and is > > going to do, is the way to get those lap records. > > Don't forget the hundreds and hundreds of hours, and thousands of laps

that > those recored holders have in their pocket. I've said it before, GPL is no > different to me than any other sim or ARCADE racing game I've ever > experienced. As long as I'm sitting in front of a computer monitor in my > socks, and unaffected physically, than they are all basically the same.When > it comes to car sims, you and some others here have lower standards than I > do, which is why you have a hard time understanding my views on physicsand

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> realism. > > > > After I drove a 1.16 lap with F1 2000 I didn't have any victorious > > feelings. It was just a little bit practising and didn't demand any > > skills or talent, just practise. But when I drove a 1.27 on Monza in > > GPL for the first time I knew I deserved it, that I worked for it, > > that I finally started to understand something about handling a car at > > high speed. > > Someone here at r.a.s. (sorry, forgot who it was) has a 10 year old who

did > a 1:29 (or maybe a1:31 which is still fast enough to make my point) atMonza > recently. > > My neighbor did a 1:29 after an hour with the sim. I did a lap which was > half a second slower than your pb after barely touching the sim for thepast

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> year. Guys like you practice thousands of laps and then claim that GPL > drivers are the best and doing something amazing? That's a joke. Newsflash > for you Andre. For every one decent GPL driver, there are thousands of > pimple faced arcade racing game fans who can rip them apart. > > > Driving in F1 2000 is fun, driving in RC2000 is exciting, driving in > > GPL is pure art. > > Pure art? > > That's lovely. > > > > I like GPL. > > Are you sure? > > David G Fisher > >

Yes, I'm sure I like it. I think though that Andre and some others may have somehow made it their wife in a secret and very strange marriage ceremony/honeymoon. David G Fisher "Graeme Nash" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:WTYRwEAVELC5Ew$[email hidden]...

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> > >Are you sure? > > >David G Fisher > > Are you sure, David G Fisher? > > -- > Cheers! > Graeme Nash

I'm aware of the patch... I'll let it simmer for a while others break their back getting a grip on the correct range for each setting and then copy that. ;-) Jan. =--- <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:8ea77d$o82$[email hidden]... > Get the latest patch! It lets you set just about anything you want, > esp. damage levels, turn off the sticky grass, remove the stupid > auto-neutral, etc. > > HTH, > Kendt<snip>

What exactly are you trying to say here? Andre says he likes GPL better because in his opinion talent makes a bigger difference. You dispute that, but then go on to say he's untalented and no matter how much he practises his efforts mean nothing because talented people like your neighbour, yourself and the 10 year old can get very close without practising much, thereby implying talent is the overriding factor in GPL. If understanding your standards would bring understanding of the above, I'd surely love an explanation. Any games out there which meet them BTW? Personally, I tend to agree with Andre, for no matter how knowledgeable I've become (in the quest for speed in GPL) and how much I practise, I find myself smoked by a ten year old and the likes of you. I do not begrudge it (anymore) and enjoy my racing nonetheless, but realising one's limitations is one of the most sobering things a person can do. Jan. =--- David G Fisher <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:QL0O4.155610$[email hidden]... > > <snip>

On Thu, 27 Apr 2000 19:43:44 GMT, "David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote:

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> >"Andre Warringa" <[email hidden]> wrote in message >news:[email hidden]... > > >You say other sims only require practice to be fast, yet you make the >statement below. Every one of the fastest GPL drivers has at least a few >thousand hours behind the wheel.

Other sims require practice and everyone WILL BE fast. I equaled the fastest lap I could find on the net at Barca in F1 2000 within 2 hours of practice. I practices l-o-t-s of laps in GPL and still can't come even close to the pb of the GPL hotshots. I think I explained the difference well enough in my original post, can't help it if you can't understand it.

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>> Strange thing is, in GPL, I'm still stuck at 1.27.77 as my pb at >> Monza. I watched hundreds of replays, used numerous hotshot setups, >> but still I'm far away from that 1.26 lap. > >> After 2 years of practising >> every single day! > >You might of mentioned this a long time ago so I wouldn't have bothered >wasting time trying to debate with you about sims with a fanatic.

You didn't know I was a GPL fanatic? You're new here on RAS? Let me make this very clear to you: I play every racing game that comes out on the pc. Every time I hope for a GPL beater, and everytime it's a disapointment. I had big hopes for Sos37, Lemans and F1 2000. Sos37 and Lemans were complete crap, F1 2000 is, as someone else correctly described it, the best of the worst. but it has too many flaws to be a good sim. With all the patches being released there is still hope for f1 2000, but the 'racing feeling' doesn't even come close to GPL, no matter how many graphical and sound patches will be released. As long as GPL hasn't been beaten, I will remain a GPL fanatic. I'm not as narrow minded as you with your RC2000 hype.

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>> As far as I'm concenred, GPL is the only sim which requires not only >> lots of practice, but also a very good understanding of car physics, >> and a dosis of talent. Driving on the edge by playing very carefully >> with the brake and the throttle, by feeling what the car does and is >> going to do, is the way to get those lap records. > >Don't forget the hundreds and hundreds of hours, and thousands of laps that >those recored holders have in their pocket. I've said it before, GPL is no >different to me than any other sim or ARCADE racing game I've ever >experienced. As long as I'm sitting in front of a computer monitor in my >socks, and unaffected physically, than they are all basically the same. When >it comes to car sims, you and some others here have lower standards than I >do, which is why you have a hard time understanding my views on physics and >realism.

I, GPL fanatic, have a lower standard when it comes to physics and realism than you, RC2000 fanatic? O-k ...

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>> After I drove a 1.16 lap with F1 2000 I didn't have any victorious >> feelings. It was just a little bit practising and didn't demand any >> skills or talent, just practise. But when I drove a 1.27 on Monza in >> GPL for the first time I knew I deserved it, that I worked for it, >> that I finally started to understand something about handling a car at >> high speed. > >Someone here at r.a.s. (sorry, forgot who it was) has a 10 year old who did >a 1:29 (or maybe a1:31 which is still fast enough to make my point) at Monza >recently.

So the 10 year old is very talented! Lots of people here can't drive 1:29 laps after lots of practice. >My neighbor did a 1:29 after an hour with the sim. I did a lap which was >half a second slower than your pb after barely touching the sim for the past >year. Guys like you practice thousands of laps and then claim that GPL >drivers are the best and doing something amazing? That's a joke. Newsflash >for you Andre. For every one decent GPL driver, there are thousands of >pimple faced arcade racing game fans who can rip them apart. To be honest, I don't believe you, but if you are telling the truth, strange things are going on here. Devoted racing sim fanatics can't beat those fastest laps in GPL after lots of practice and you claim that thousands of arcade racing game fans can rip the pb's apart? >> Driving in F1 2000 is fun, driving in RC2000 is exciting, driving in >> GPL is pure art. > >Pure art? > >That's lovely. You finally start to get it! >> I like GPL. > >Are you sure? Uh, yes. You still like RC2000? That sim with real life physics? > >David G Fisher

He Jan, how did you knew he would respond to my post? :) Andre On Thu, 27 Apr 2000 19:20:07 GMT, "David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote:

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>He fell asleep halfway through the post. > >David G Fisher > > >"Jan Hovius" <[email hidden]> wrote in message >news:[email hidden]... >> Finally! >> >> I was waiting all day for this post :) >> >> Where's D.G.F.? >> >> J. >> >> >

Seen a faster lap so far? In GPL very fast laps were made within the first weeks. I had to struggle a long time to come close to these pb's. It's been out for what, 2 months now? And within 2 hours I beat the fastest lap I could find on the net. Without any effort. Not very satisfactory I must admit. Andre On Thu, 27 Apr 2000 19:45:29 GMT, "David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote:

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>BTW, who said 1:16 was the record lap for Spain. The sim was just recently >released. > >David G Fisher > > >"David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote in message >news:QL0O4.155610$[email hidden]... >> >> "Andre Warringa" <[email hidden]> wrote in message >> news:[email hidden]... >> >> >> You say other sims only require practice to be fast, yet you make the >> statement below. Every one of the fastest GPL drivers has at least a few >> thousand hours behind the wheel. >> >> > >> > Strange thing is, in GPL, I'm still stuck at 1.27.77 as my pb at >> > Monza. I watched hundreds of replays, used numerous hotshot setups, >> > but still I'm far away from that 1.26 lap. >> >> > After 2 years of practising >> > every single day! >> >> You might of mentioned this a long time ago so I wouldn't have bothered >> wasting time trying to debate with you about sims with a fanatic. >> >> >> > As far as I'm concenred, GPL is the only sim which requires not only >> > lots of practice, but also a very good understanding of car physics, >> > and a dosis of talent. Driving on the edge by playing very carefully >> > with the brake and the throttle, by feeling what the car does and is >> > going to do, is the way to get those lap records. >> >> Don't forget the hundreds and hundreds of hours, and thousands of laps >that >> those recored holders have in their pocket. I've said it before, GPL is no >> different to me than any other sim or ARCADE racing game I've ever >> experienced. As long as I'm sitting in front of a computer monitor in my >> socks, and unaffected physically, than they are all basically the same. >When >> it comes to car sims, you and some others here have lower standards than I >> do, which is why you have a hard time understanding my views on physics >and >> realism. >> >> >> > After I drove a 1.16 lap with F1 2000 I didn't have any victorious >> > feelings. It was just a little bit practising and didn't demand any >> > skills or talent, just practise. But when I drove a 1.27 on Monza in >> > GPL for the first time I knew I deserved it, that I worked for it, >> > that I finally started to understand something about handling a car at >> > high speed. >> >> Someone here at r.a.s. (sorry, forgot who it was) has a 10 year old who >did >> a 1:29 (or maybe a1:31 which is still fast enough to make my point) at >Monza >> recently. >> >> My neighbor did a 1:29 after an hour with the sim. I did a lap which was >> half a second slower than your pb after barely touching the sim for the >past >> year. Guys like you practice thousands of laps and then claim that GPL >> drivers are the best and doing something amazing? That's a joke. Newsflash >> for you Andre. For every one decent GPL driver, there are thousands of >> pimple faced arcade racing game fans who can rip them apart. >> >> > Driving in F1 2000 is fun, driving in RC2000 is exciting, driving in >> > GPL is pure art. >> >> Pure art? >> >> That's lovely. >> >> >> > I like GPL. >> >> Are you sure? >> >> David G Fisher >> >> >

He Jan, how did you knew he would respond to my post? :) Andre

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>He fell asleep halfway through the post. >David G Fisher >> Finally! >> I was waiting all day for this post :) >> Where's D.G.F.? >> J.

David G Fisher <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:W03O4.155697$[email hidden]... > Yes, I'm sure I like it. > > I think though that Andre and some others may have somehow made it their > wife in a secret and very strange marriage ceremony/honeymoon. > > David G Fisher Ther was nothing strange about it at all. I told the CD to open wide and think of Spa, then incanted the holy verses from "Four Wheel Drift" :-)

"David G Fisher" wrote > Someone here at r.a.s. (sorry, forgot who it was) has a 10 year old whodid > a 1:29 (or maybe a1:31 which is still fast enough to make my point) atMonza > recently. I posted that David, apology accepted! Your point would be proved except that my lad beats me at every racing sim/game apart from GPL. Therefore GPL is the only non arcade game! Joking apart for me it is not the difficulty that makes a sim but how close any sim can come to MY perception of what it should feel like. I am not hung up on total accuracy. If it feels about right then it captures my imagination. GPL provides that feel (my preference - others may have different views), however, it has a fairly steep learning curve. So the "GPL community" tends to be more fanatical to be prepared to go through the curve. Leaping in & driving on the pace seems very unlikely compared to an arcade racer. The fact that a 10 year old could achieve decent times seems to prove this wrong. I can assure you that Mikey has put the effort in (and surprised me by not giving up when I used to give him a 5 second start on a single lap sprint) and learnt to "feel" the effects of the car and balance of throttle and brake on a split axis. In some senses his lack of experience in a real car may work for him as the senses are relayed through sight & sound only - not through motion. Also (unlike me & probably others here) he has not got involved with setups. His improvement has been all down to practise - rather than experimenting looking for that magic change to the setup. If a point is proved it is to be out on the track not in the garage or adapting to a radical setup change. As stated for me GPL provides the best "feel". How close it is to a true '67 F1 car I neither know nor really care. I like the way it feels & fools me into thinking that is how it should be - which to date no other sim has quite achieved. That is my preference, it is what suits me, my PC set up, my driving style (?), my ageing brain etc. Others WILL have differing opinions which I understand. I do look forward to other sims. A touring car sim which feels like I believe a touring car would - with the ability to swap door mirrors on-line would turn GPL into history for me! Tony

In article <j3mO4.5252$[email hidden]>, "Tony Rickard" <[email hidden]> writes: >Also (unlike me & probably others here) he has not got involved with setups. >His improvement has been all down to practise - rather than experimenting >looking for that magic change to the setup. If a point is proved it is to be >out on the track not in the garage or adapting to a radical setup change. You're using DEFAULT setups??? And the hits just KEEP on coming.. :) <sigh>...Which car set the 1:29 lap? Eldred -- Tiger Stadium R.I.P. 1912-1999 Own Grand Prix Legends? Goto http://gpl.gamestats.com/vroc Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

"Jan Verschueren" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:SE3O4.30099$[email hidden]... > What exactly are you trying to say here? > > Andre says he likes GPL better because in his opinion talent makes abigger > difference. What he said in his sly little way was that only GPL fans have REAL talent. That's a bit of a pompous and insulting attitude. Not to mention completely wrong and laughable. What he tried to make us believe was that with other sims, all that's needed is practice to be fast (I agree that most people can be extremely fast with a lot of practice). Then he tells us that only GPL requires real talent, but that he's also played GPL two hours a day, every day, for the past two years. I guarantee all the other GPL hotlappers have similiar time invested into the game. So where's the difference? > You dispute that, but then go on to say he's untalented Never said he's untalented. I have no idea how talented he is. I'll certainly never know how talented he and anyone else is if they've spent anywhere near as many hours with one sim as he has. My guess though is that he's very talented. >and no matter how > much he practises his efforts mean nothing because talented people likeyour > neighbour, yourself and the 10 year old can get very close without > practising much, thereby implying talent is the overriding factor in GPL. > > If understanding your standards would bring understanding of the above,I'd > surely love an explanation. Any games out there which meet them BTW? They are all the same. Trying to bridge the gap to the fastest known MTM2 lap time is the same, and as challenging, as it is to catch the fastest SBK2000 or GPL lap time. Actually, you'll never know who really has great talent in sims because unlike real life racing, anyone, regardless of talent level, can practice a huge amount of hours and eventually find the limits of a racing game. All the top guys tend to have an unbelievable amount of hours invested in their chosen sim. > Personally, I tend to agree with Andre, for no matter how knowledgeableI've > become (in the quest for speed in GPL) and how much I practise, I find > myself smoked by a ten year old and the likes of you. I do not begrudge it > (anymore) and enjoy my racing nonetheless, but realising one's limitations > is one of the most sobering things a person can do. > > Jan. More than likely you just need a setup which suits you better, or different hardware (CPU, controller) which runs the game that much better and allows you to gain the elusive half second. David G Fisher

"Andre Warringa" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> On Thu, 27 Apr 2000 19:43:44 GMT, "David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> > wrote: > > > > >"Andre Warringa" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > >news:[email hidden]... > > > > > >You say other sims only require practice to be fast, yet you make the > >statement below. Every one of the fastest GPL drivers has at least a few > >thousand hours behind the wheel. > > Other sims require practice and everyone WILL BE fast. I equaled the > fastest lap I could find on the net at Barca in F1 2000 within 2 hours > of practice.

Nothing personal, but I doubt that is the best lap ever for Spain in F1 2000. The limits of GPL have been found by now. F1 2000 is just a baby. > I practices l-o-t-s of laps in GPL and still can't come > even close to the pb of the GPL hotshots. > I think I explained the difference well enough in my original post, > can't help it if you can't understand it. I understand you perfectly.

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> >> Strange thing is, in GPL, I'm still stuck at 1.27.77 as my pb at > >> Monza. I watched hundreds of replays, used numerous hotshot setups, > >> but still I'm far away from that 1.26 lap. > > > >> After 2 years of practising > >> every single day! > > > >You might of mentioned this a long time ago so I wouldn't have bothered > >wasting time trying to debate with you about sims with a fanatic. > > You didn't know I was a GPL fanatic? You're new here on RAS?

I guess I just can't fathom how anyone can play any computer game that much. No game is good enough to make that type of time committment. The challenge would have long been lost too.

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> Let me make this very clear to you: I play every racing game that > comes out on the pc. Every time I hope for a GPL beater, and everytime > it's a disapointment. I had big hopes for Sos37, Lemans and F1 2000. > Sos37 and Lemans were complete crap, F1 2000 is, as someone else > correctly described it, the best of the worst. but it has too many > flaws to be a good sim. With all the patches being released there is > still hope for f1 2000, but the 'racing feeling' doesn't even come > close to GPL,

Your standards are below mine then. GPL doesn't come within a million miles of a real racing experience for me. That's why I choose not to split hairs regarding the physics model of GPL and F1 2000. If you think there's a big difference, then you must have a great imagination that kicks into gear for tw hours every day, every year. >no matter how many graphical and sound patches will be > released. > As long as GPL hasn't been beaten, I will remain a GPL fanatic. I'm > not as narrow minded as you with your RC2000 hype. I tested the game and since I happened to be the only r.a.s reader who did, I tried to let anyone who was interested know what the game would be like, and made it clear that the final version was not at all like the alpha and beta demos. How can I be accused of being narrow minded when I'm the one who likes so many different sims, and you like only one?

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> >> As far as I'm concenred, GPL is the only sim which requires not only > >> lots of practice, but also a very good understanding of car physics, > >> and a dosis of talent. Driving on the edge by playing very carefully > >> with the brake and the throttle, by feeling what the car does and is > >> going to do, is the way to get those lap records. > > > >Don't forget the hundreds and hundreds of hours, and thousands of laps

that > >those recored holders have in their pocket. I've said it before, GPL isno > >different to me than any other sim or ARCADE racing game I've ever > >experienced. As long as I'm sitting in front of a computer monitor in my > >socks, and unaffected physically, than they are all basically the same.When > >it comes to car sims, you and some others here have lower standards thanI > >do, which is why you have a hard time understanding my views on physicsand > >realism. > > I, GPL fanatic, have a lower standard when it comes to physics and > realism than you, RC2000 fanatic? O-k ... If you think GPL is a realistic racing experience which no other sim approaches, then your standards are way below mine. It's NOTHING like driving a real car. It's an eye/hand coordination exercise with cartoon cars and tracks which create a racing theme. Just like F1 2000. If someday you try to tell Schumacher that racing GPL has anything at all in common with what he knows real racing to be (and a sim like F1 2000 doesn't), he'll laugh his a** off for almost as long as you'll practice Mosport this week. It's as similiar to what he does as is baking a cake with a recipe from Martha Stewart. David G Fisher

Peter, It may be time to start looking at Monza from an equipment standpoint. Are you running the make which is best suited for that track? With so few technical corners, making good times at Monza starts to involve such things as "How should I gear the car so I exit Curva at redline in 4th so I can immediately upshift to 5th and into the fat part of the engine's powerband?" or "How can I gear to reach max velocity on the back straight?" after you've got the suspension and diff setup to optimally suit you. If you are hitting the median speeds through Lesmos and Parabolica for hotter laps than yours, then you need to work on getting the car to terminal velocity as quickly as possible. Regards, Brett C. Cammack That's Racing! Motorsports Pompano Beach, FL

On Mon, 01 May 2000 06:42:56 GMT, "David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote: >What he said in his sly little way was that only GPL fans have REAL talent. >That's a bit of a pompous and insulting attitude. Not to mention completely >wrong and laughable. That was not what I meant. If someone does a 1.14 lap with F1 2000, that's superb, and I don't think I can beat that that easily. But I was a little bit disappointed that I could break the current record (as far as I know) within 2 hours practising. I didn't feel I really had to work for it, so the fast laps didn't give me any satisfaction. >What he tried to make us believe was that with other sims, all that's needed >is practice to be fast (I agree that most people can be extremely fast with >a lot of practice). Then he tells us that only GPL requires real talent, but >that he's also played GPL two hours a day, every day, for the past two >years. I guarantee all the other GPL hotlappers have similiar time invested >into the game. So where's the difference? The difference is that I beat the current record (afaik) within 2 hours driving in F1 2000, and I can't even come close to the GPL records after 2 years of driving. >Never said he's untalented. I have no idea how talented he is. I'll >certainly never know how talented he and anyone else is if they've spent >anywhere near as many hours with one sim as he has. My guess though is that >he's very talented. I feel honoured, but seeing guys like Woeger and Huttu driving 1.27 shortly after GPL was released, and seeing them driving 1.26 laps on Monza now, I'm not talented, they are. I'm reasonable fast, but there's a big difference between the guys can drive pretty fast after lots of practice, and the guys who can drive ridiculous fast laps.

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>They are all the same. Trying to bridge the gap to the fastest known MTM2 >lap time is the same, and as challenging, as it is to catch the fastest >SBK2000 or GPL lap time. Actually, you'll never know who really has great >talent in sims because unlike real life racing, anyone, regardless of talent >level, can practice a huge amount of hours and eventually find the limits of >a racing game. All the top guys tend to have an unbelievable amount of hours >invested in their chosen sim.

This is indeed hard to measure, but fact remains that Woeger and Huttu broke all the pb's allmost from the beginning of GPL's release, and still they are at the top of most hotlap boards. I allways enjoy real life Karting with my friends, but it's allways most fun when we go to a Karting centre where none of us drove before. Getting a victory there allways gives the most satisfaction! >More than likely you just need a setup which suits you better, or different >hardware (CPU, controller) which runs the game that much better and allows >you to gain the elusive half second. I have a constant 36fps, so hardware problems are out of the question. My current pb for Monza is 1.27.33 (since yesterday :) , I gained time by working on my trailbraking in the first lesmo and at the Parabolica. It was not due to my setup, I used the same setup, it was due to my driving technique. Current record is 1.26.52, I don't think that I'm allmost a second slower due to a bad setup. And there you have it again David, I had to practice and work for my new pb, that gives me satisfaction and a feeling of victory, something I deeply miss with other driving games/sims. Andre >David G Fisher

On Mon, 01 May 2000 07:09:38 GMT, "David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote: >Nothing personal, but I doubt that is the best lap ever for Spain in F1 >2000. The limits of GPL have been found by now. F1 2000 is just a baby. Agreed, but learning how to keep the car on the road in GPL took lots of time and understanding of car physics, F1 2000 feels way to forgiving/simple imho. >I guess I just can't fathom how anyone can play any computer game that much. >No game is good enough to make that type of time committment. The challenge >would have long been lost too. Just a difference of opinion here. There were other games that I played very much, Gp1, Red Baron 3d and Jimmy White Snooker come to mind. Some games are just that good and challengig. With GPL I still learn new things, I still beat my own pb's after more and more practice, and still have a blast while racing against the AI or online. >I tested the game and since I happened to be the only r.a.s reader who did, >I tried to let anyone who was interested know what the game would be like, >and made it clear that the final version was not at all like the alpha and >beta demos. How can I be accused of being narrow minded when I'm the one who >likes so many different sims, and you like only one? As I said, I play all racing games being released on the PC, and there are some that I enjoy a lot. I had a great time with RC2000, Colin McRae, GP1 and F1RS to mention a couple. But all those games started to become boring after a couple of weeks. GPL still fascinates me after 2 years. I don't think I'm the only one with this opinion, you hated it that people mostly talk about GPL here, and that RC2000 is hardly discussed, but did you ever wonder why that is?

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>> >Don't forget the hundreds and hundreds of hours, and thousands of laps >that >> >those recored holders have in their pocket. I've said it before, GPL is >no >> >different to me than any other sim or ARCADE racing game I've ever >> >experienced. As long as I'm sitting in front of a computer monitor in my >> >socks, and unaffected physically, than they are all basically the same. >When >> >it comes to car sims, you and some others here have lower standards than >I >> >do, which is why you have a hard time understanding my views on physics >and >> >realism.

Ok, wake up: No current computer sim will give you a REAL racing experence. No forces, no smell, no fear, etc. We're talking about simulators here, games that come as close to the real thing as possible. Ofcourse they're games and not like the real thing, come on!

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>> I, GPL fanatic, have a lower standard when it comes to physics and >> realism than you, RC2000 fanatic? O-k ... > >If you think GPL is a realistic racing experience which no other sim >approaches, then your standards are way below mine. It's NOTHING like >driving a real car. It's an eye/hand coordination exercise with cartoon cars >and tracks which create a racing theme.

GPL is of the current racing cames the one that comes closest to a realistic racing experience, even if doesn't even come close to real racing.

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>Just like F1 2000. > >If someday you try to tell Schumacher that racing GPL has anything at all in >common with what he knows real racing to be (and a sim like F1 2000 >doesn't), he'll laugh his a** off for almost as long as you'll practice >Mosport this week. It's as similiar to what he does as is baking a cake with >a recipe from Martha Stewart.

I think/hope you got my point by now. Andre > David G Fisher >

> > If someday you try to tell Schumacher that racing GPL has anything at allin > common with what he knows real racing to be (and a sim like F1 2000 > doesn't), he'll laugh his a** off for almost as long as you'll practice > Mosport this week. It's as similiar to what he does as is baking a cakewith > a recipe from Martha Stewart. > > David G Fisher > Just a comment here on simulators vs. real world racing - I think you statement is a bit on the naive side, David :-) Of course, what we are doing are playing games, luckily. We're just in the starting phase of simulations. But eventually it may prove an important part of racing. Modern motorsports and computers do work together a bit. And with the opportunity to make very exact traces of tracks via GPS or data logging, of course there is something in it. The same occurs if you race a real life opponent via the net in a sim. The better the sim is, the more realistic the playing becomes w/regs to driving behaviour, setting up the car, racing other drivers etc. Of course it isn't 100% exact, the danger is that you could bring all your driving style to the track without adapting to the machine you're running. This also occurs if you're used to one car, and jump straight into another and go fast without adapting to the handling. I had a nice discussion on sims with Carroll Smith at the NEC, and he certainly does not think of simulations as pure games. The sims can become as good as true life, but our problem is the interface with the car. Let's say a Formula Ford was rigged with fly-by wire, and you had all the controls via a PC. Now Why On Earth would that simulator be more precise than one that was programmed as a PC system? Would it give more feedback? Would the racing be more real? Matt/ thought-machine off, and expecting no comments as usual.

David G Fisher wrote... > <snip> > What he said in his sly little way was that only GPL fans have REALtalent. > That's a bit of a pompous and insulting attitude. Not to mentioncompletely > wrong and laughable. I didn't interpret his words as such (maybe that's because Andre and I share the same native language), but I see what you mean. > What he tried to make us believe was that with other sims, all that'sneeded > is practice to be fast (I agree that most people can be extremely fastwith > a lot of practice). Then he tells us that only GPL requires real talent,but > that he's also played GPL two hours a day, every day, for the past two > years. I guarantee all the other GPL hotlappers have similiar timeinvested > into the game. So where's the difference? The difference is in plain sight right there on the clock. Half a second using the same material and the same amount of practice. Talent. The difference is also in the amount of time and practise required for a relative talent/performance level. I too found it quite easy to set good times in F1 2K (after 3-4hours I was a polesitter on the hardest level), while after two years with GPL I'm not even up there with the AI. Judging my "talent" to a known reference (GPL), it follows that F1 2K lacks challenge. I'm sure with more practise I would find a limit to my speed wich would require more talent to break, so anyone more talented and willing to invest the same amount of time could put me in my place. But, since the game has already given up it's reward, there's no real incentive to continue, so I doubt very much if prowess at F1 2K will ever carry the same "prestige" as similar feats in GPL. I'm not really happy with how it put this, but I hope you get the general idea (can't think of anything better at the moment anyway). > <snip> > Never said he's untalented. I have no idea how talented he is. I'll > certainly never know how talented he and anyone else is if they've spent > anywhere near as many hours with one sim as he has. My guess though isthat > he's very talented. A pattern is emerging.... > <Snip> > They are all the same. Trying to bridge the gap to the fastest known MTM2 > lap time is the same, and as challenging, as it is to catch the fastest > SBK2000 or GPL lap time. Actually, you'll never know who really has great > talent in sims because unlike real life racing, anyone, regardless oftalent > level, can practice a huge amount of hours and eventually find the limitsof > a racing game. All the top guys tend to have an unbelievable amount ofhours > invested in their chosen sim. Ok, I understand now and what's more: I have to agree (damn! ;-)). It's this democratic nature of simracing which I really enjoy. In real racing I would have had to give up ages ago, but in the virtual world I can continue as long as I have the time to spare. It's hard to judge talent from final laptime, but, like the kid and your neighbour, easy to spot in the very beginning. Raw speed is either there or it isn't, all the rest can be learned, but cannot compensate if speed wasn't there in the first place. > <snip> > More than likely you just need a setup which suits you better, ordifferent > hardware (CPU, controller) which runs the game that much better and allows > you to gain the elusive half second. hehehe... half a second will only take me half a second closer, unfortunately. Rest assured David, my setups suit me (maybe that's the problem) and my PC is capable, I'm the weak link in the chain. ;-) Jan. =---

"David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote > If you think GPL is a realistic racing experience which no other sim > approaches, then your standards are way below mine. It just shows that for you, racing must be done in a real-life environment. That's all. For many people, it does not need to be anymore. Virtual reality is a way for many to race in way that is more and more realistic with the years, with the help of technology. It will never equal real-life racing, SO FRIGGIN WHAT? It's still racing, just different. -- -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> -- May the Downforce be with you... -- http://www.WeRace.net -- People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world.

In article <[email hidden]>, Brett C. Cammack <[email hidden]> writes

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>Peter, > >It may be time to start looking at Monza from an equipment standpoint. >Are you running the make which is best suited for that track? With so >few technical corners, making good times at Monza starts to involve >such things as "How should I gear the car so I exit Curva at redline >in 4th so I can immediately upshift to 5th and into the fat part of >the engine's powerband?" or "How can I gear to reach max velocity on >the back straight?" after you've got the suspension and diff setup to >optimally suit you. > >If you are hitting the median speeds through Lesmos and Parabolica for >hotter laps than yours, then you need to work on getting the car to >terminal velocity as quickly as possible. >

Well, like I say, I haven't given up yet. In fact I've just finished an hours training at Monza (typing this whilst still covered in persperation garnered out of all those g-forces I've had to endure. <g>) and have improved, if ever so slightly, so I'm still heading in the right direction even if it is only marginally. After 8 laps I managed a 1:27.67 (wayhay! Just .02 quicker!) and then, many laps later, got it down another .02 to 1:27.65, hehe. At this rate I should be under 1:26.5 by Christmas. Thanks for the advice, I need all the ideas I can get my brain around at the moment and so will definitely be taking this on board. -- Peter Ives - (AKA Ivington) No person's opinions can be said to be more correct than another's, because each is the sole judge of his or her own experience.

Andre, Forget DGF, I get your point 8>) J.

David?........DAVID............ Where is your reply to this one?

Andre, Forget DGF, I get your point 8>) J.

David?........DAVID............ Where is your reply to this one?

It's kind of cute the way you GPL guys all stick up for eachother. David G Fisher "Jan Hovius" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > Andre, > > Forget DGF, I get your point 8>) > > J. >

David's been very busy the past 24 hours, but will reply shortly. David G Fisher "Jan Hovius" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > David?........DAVID............ > > Where is your reply to this one? >

I can't really find anything to disagree with in your post. :-) Get your son in some karts soon. Just make sure he'll be safe. What were you expecting Jan? David G Fisher "Tony Rickard" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:j3mO4.5252$[email hidden]...

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> > "David G Fisher" wrote > > > Someone here at r.a.s. (sorry, forgot who it was) has a 10 year old who > did > > a 1:29 (or maybe a1:31 which is still fast enough to make my point) at > Monza > > recently. > > I posted that David, apology accepted! > > Your point would be proved except that my lad beats me at every racing > sim/game apart from GPL. Therefore GPL is the only non arcade game! > > Joking apart for me it is not the difficulty that makes a sim but how

close > any sim can come to MY perception of what it should feel like. I am nothung > up on total accuracy. If it feels about right then it captures my > imagination. > > GPL provides that feel (my preference - others may have different views), > however, it has a fairly steep learning curve. So the "GPL community"tends

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> to be more fanatical to be prepared to go through the curve. Leaping in & > driving on the pace seems very unlikely compared to an arcade racer. > > The fact that a 10 year old could achieve decent times seems to prove this > wrong. I can assure you that Mikey has put the effort in (and surprised me > by not giving up when I used to give him a 5 second start on a single lap > sprint) and learnt to "feel" the effects of the car and balance of

throttle > and brake on a split axis. In some senses his lack of experience in a real > car may work for him as the senses are relayed through sight & soundonly - > not through motion. > > Also (unlike me & probably others here) he has not got involved withsetups. > His improvement has been all down to practise - rather than experimenting > looking for that magic change to the setup. If a point is proved it is tobe > out on the track not in the garage or adapting to a radical setup change. > > As stated for me GPL provides the best "feel". How close it is to a true'67 > F1 car I neither know nor really care. I like the way it feels & fools me > into thinking that is how it should be - which to date no other sim has > quite achieved. That is my preference, it is what suits me, my PC set up,my > driving style (?), my ageing brain etc. Others WILL have differingopinions > which I understand. > > I do look forward to other sims. A touring car sim which feels like I > believe a touring car would - with the ability to swap door mirrorson-line > would turn GPL into history for me! > > Tony > >

"EldredP" wrote: > > >Also (unlike me & probably others here) he has not got involved withsetups. > >His improvement has been all down to practise - rather than experimenting > >looking for that magic change to the setup. If a point is proved it is tobe > >out on the track not in the garage or adapting to a radical setup change. > > You're using DEFAULT setups??? And the hits just KEEP on coming.. :) > <sigh>...Which car set the 1:29 lap? >Not default - but a setup I gave him a long time ago - in a Ferrari. Must be flawed otherwise I would be doing 1:27s in it (yeah right!) Tony

Thanks David Now why do I feel bad for NOT posting something you can disagree with :) Tony "David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:PgFP4.166629$[email hidden]...

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> I can't really find anything to disagree with in your post. :-) > > Get your son in some karts soon. Just make sure he'll be safe. > > What were you expecting Jan? > > David G Fisher > > > "Tony Rickard" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:j3mO4.5252$[email hidden]... > > > > "David G Fisher" wrote > > > > > Someone here at r.a.s. (sorry, forgot who it was) has a 10 year old

who

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> > did > > > a 1:29 (or maybe a1:31 which is still fast enough to make my point) at > > Monza > > > recently. > > > > I posted that David, apology accepted! > > > > Your point would be proved except that my lad beats me at every racing > > sim/game apart from GPL. Therefore GPL is the only non arcade game! > > > > Joking apart for me it is not the difficulty that makes a sim but how > close > > any sim can come to MY perception of what it should feel like. I am not > hung > > up on total accuracy. If it feels about right then it captures my > > imagination. > > > > GPL provides that feel (my preference - others may have different

views), > > however, it has a fairly steep learning curve. So the "GPL community" > tends > > to be more fanatical to be prepared to go through the curve. Leaping in& > > driving on the pace seems very unlikely compared to an arcade racer. > > > > The fact that a 10 year old could achieve decent times seems to provethis > > wrong. I can assure you that Mikey has put the effort in (and surprisedme > > by not giving up when I used to give him a 5 second start on a singlelap > > sprint) and learnt to "feel" the effects of the car and balance of > throttle > > and brake on a split axis. In some senses his lack of experience in areal

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> > car may work for him as the senses are relayed through sight & sound > only - > > not through motion. > > > > Also (unlike me & probably others here) he has not got involved with > setups. > > His improvement has been all down to practise - rather than

experimenting > > looking for that magic change to the setup. If a point is proved it isto > be > > out on the track not in the garage or adapting to a radical setupchange. > > > > As stated for me GPL provides the best "feel". How close it is to a true > '67 > > F1 car I neither know nor really care. I like the way it feels & foolsme > > into thinking that is how it should be - which to date no other sim has > > quite achieved. That is my preference, it is what suits me, my PC setup,

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> my > > driving style (?), my ageing brain etc. Others WILL have differing > opinions > > which I understand. > > > > I do look forward to other sims. A touring car sim which feels like I > > believe a touring car would - with the ability to swap door mirrors > on-line > > would turn GPL into history for me! > > > > Tony > > > > >

> It's kind of cute the way you GPL guys all stick up for eachother. > > David G Fisher > In my mind the "GPL community" doesn't exist to the extent you suggest, David. Simply that GPL is a highly regarded quality sim by many that frequent this group. Controversial comments about it being arcade like are bound to provoke a number of individual but similar reactions. Which appear to be a unified voice. Just as they would if you made similar comments about Falcon 4 or Half Life on the respective newsgroups. What appears to happen to me is that minor differences of opinion explode as counter arguments take us further away from the original stance. Then posters I would normally value are dragged into simple contradictory arguments value. It all ends up like the Monty Python sketch - that's not an argument, that's contradiction - no it isn't :) I've said this before - if the "GPL community" were presented with a new sim, which equalled or surpassed the "feel" GPL provides for many of us, with better (than 1998) graphics, sound, new features, more stable on-line play then GPL would be dropped just like that. There is no loyalty here - just desire for the best. Whilst competent sims come out, which fail to better GPL in enough areas to make people switch, then the established product will continue to flourish. The downside is the competent sim is appeared to be rubbished by the GPL playing community. This is more a reflection of disappointment that as a whole racing sim nothing better has come along since 1998. Expectations run VERY high on this newsgroup. For some reason the newsgroup leans very heavily towards racing sims. Maybe it is slewed by the percentage who race on-line, hence again the high number of GPL users. RAS is a nightmare for manufacturers though. We want to work with them, give them ideas and develop the software with them. When a new product comes out though, if it doesn't break new ground immediately it tends to get slammed. Rather than accept some patches may turn this into the next generation sim. Some sims have been transformed by patches (AI, physics etc.) but still haven't been embraced by the newsgroup. Whoops I am rambling... Tony

"Matthew B.Knutsen" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:XbcP4.345$[email hidden]... > > > > > If someday you try to tell Schumacher that racing GPL has anything atall

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> in > > common with what he knows real racing to be (and a sim like F1 2000 > > doesn't), he'll laugh his a** off for almost as long as you'll practice > > Mosport this week. It's as similiar to what he does as is baking a cake > with > > a recipe from Martha Stewart. > > > > David G Fisher > > > > Just a comment here on simulators vs. real world racing - I think you > statement is a bit on the naive side, David :-) > > Of course, what we are doing are playing games, luckily. We're just in the > starting phase of simulations. But eventually it may prove an important

part > of racing. I agree, in the same way flight simulators are used to train pilots. It's just that they aren't even close yet, and when I force myself to step back form this hobby I enjoy so much and to gain some perspective, I end up thinking think it's pretty silly to gush over the physics of a sim like GPL, and/or trash F1 2000's. Of course I see and understand the differences in various sims, but some people have gone way overboard with the "reality" claim, and to trash or ignore other quality sims seems ridiculous. >Modern motorsports and computers do work together a bit. And with > the opportunity to make very exact traces of tracks via GPS or datalogging, > of course there is something in it. The same occurs if you race a reallife > opponent via the net in a sim. The better the sim is, the more realisticthe > playing becomes w/regs to driving behaviour, setting up the car, racing > other drivers etc. Of course it isn't 100% exact, the danger is that you > could bring all your driving style to the track without adapting to the > machine you're running. This also occurs if you're used to one car, andjump

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> straight into another and go fast without adapting to the handling. > > I had a nice discussion on sims with Carroll Smith at the NEC, and he > certainly does not think of simulations as pure games. > > The sims can become as good as true life, but our problem is the interface > with the car. Let's say a Formula Ford was rigged with fly-by wire, and

you > had all the controls via a PC. Now Why On Earth would that simulator bemore > precise than one that was programmed as a PC system? Would it give more > feedback? Would the racing be more real? It would be a little more precise since there are always guesses involved in a sim's physics model. Also, one little miscalculation or slightly wrong guess can ruin the whole feel. In my mind, the fly-by wire ff would be only slightly more realistic an experience than the PC sim, but still miles away from the real thing. > Matt/ > thought-machine off, and expecting no comments as usual. Is the "no comments" directed at me? I know my news reader has missed some of your posts in the past (noticed this in a deja news search ), so if I didn't reply, that's the reason. David G Fisher

"ymenard" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:i4iP4.98170$[email hidden]...

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> "David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote > > If you think GPL is a realistic racing experience which no other sim > > approaches, then your standards are way below mine. > > > > It just shows that for you, racing must be done in a real-life

environment. > That's all. For many people, it does not need to be anymore. Virtual > reality is a way for many to race in way that is more and more realistic > with the years, with the help of technology. It will never equalreal-life > racing, SO FRIGGIN WHAT? It's still racing, just different. It will never equal real life racing, but it needs to come a million miles closer before some of the comments on this newsgroup make any sense. David G Fisher

I'll say it again, 1:16 is not the record for that track. I don't know what it will eventually be, but that isn't it. Do you really think you can match or beat the best times of any racing game (sim or arcde) after just a couple of hours? GPL, POD, CPR, GP2, F1 RS, MGPRS2, F1 2000, RC 2000. Whatever driving game I've tried, no matter how different to eachother they are, I always end up at about the same level in comparison with the top times and online drivers. That's because none are much more realistic than the other. David G Fisher "Andre Warringa" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > On Mon, 01 May 2000 06:42:56 GMT, "David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> > wrote: > > >What he said in his sly little way was that only GPL fans have REALtalent. > >That's a bit of a pompous and insulting attitude. Not to mentioncompletely

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> >wrong and laughable. > > That was not what I meant. If someone does a 1.14 lap with F1 2000, > that's superb, and I don't think I can beat that that easily. But I > was a little bit disappointed that I could break the current record > (as far as I know) within 2 hours practising. I didn't feel I really > had to work for it, so the fast laps didn't give me any satisfaction. > > >What he tried to make us believe was that with other sims, all that's

needed > >is practice to be fast (I agree that most people can be extremely fastwith > >a lot of practice). Then he tells us that only GPL requires real talent,but > >that he's also played GPL two hours a day, every day, for the past two > >years. I guarantee all the other GPL hotlappers have similiar timeinvested

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> >into the game. So where's the difference? > > The difference is that I beat the current record (afaik) within 2 > hours driving in F1 2000, and I can't even come close to the GPL > records after 2 years of driving. > > >Never said he's untalented. I have no idea how talented he is. I'll > >certainly never know how talented he and anyone else is if they've spent > >anywhere near as many hours with one sim as he has. My guess though is

that

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> >he's very talented. > > I feel honoured, but seeing guys like Woeger and Huttu driving 1.27 > shortly after GPL was released, and seeing them driving 1.26 laps on > Monza now, I'm not talented, they are. > I'm reasonable fast, but there's a big difference between the guys can > drive pretty fast after lots of practice, and the guys who can drive > ridiculous fast laps. > > >They are all the same. Trying to bridge the gap to the fastest known MTM2 > >lap time is the same, and as challenging, as it is to catch the fastest > >SBK2000 or GPL lap time. Actually, you'll never know who really has great > >talent in sims because unlike real life racing, anyone, regardless of

talent > >level, can practice a huge amount of hours and eventually find the limitsof > >a racing game. All the top guys tend to have an unbelievable amount ofhours

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> >invested in their chosen sim. > > This is indeed hard to measure, but fact remains that Woeger and Huttu > broke all the pb's allmost from the beginning of GPL's release, and > still they are at the top of most hotlap boards. > I allways enjoy real life Karting with my friends, but it's allways > most fun when we go to a Karting centre where none of us drove before. > Getting a victory there allways gives the most satisfaction! > > >More than likely you just need a setup which suits you better, or

different > >hardware (CPU, controller) which runs the game that much better andallows

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> >you to gain the elusive half second. > > I have a constant 36fps, so hardware problems are out of the question. > My current pb for Monza is 1.27.33 (since yesterday :) , I gained time > by working on my trailbraking in the first lesmo and at the > Parabolica. It was not due to my setup, I used the same setup, it was > due to my driving technique. > Current record is 1.26.52, I don't think that I'm allmost a second > slower due to a bad setup. > > And there you have it again David, I had to practice and work for my > new pb, that gives me satisfaction and a feeling of victory, something > I deeply miss with other driving games/sims. > > Andre > > >David G Fisher >

Yeah, well--we learned that after the trouble we almost got in on account of that Iran-Contra business . . . a close call indeed. (Only we knew what "out of the loop" really meant.) --DK "David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:D9FP4.166622$[email hidden]... > It's kind of cute the way you GPL guys all stick up for eachother. > > David G Fisher

Graeme Nash wrote: > >I could care less. > > Why does this expression keep appearing here on ras? I always thought it > was "I *couldn't* care less"...? You are correct, sir. > Although in DGF's case, the original statement is probably closer to the > truth, despite his efforts to convince us otherwise :-)) Exactly. Dave Ewing -- ***************************************************** David A. Ewing Xilinx Boulder [email hidden] *****************************************************

>I could care less. Why does this expression keep appearing here on ras? I always thought it was "I *couldn't* care less"...? Although in DGF's case, the original statement is probably closer to the truth, despite his efforts to convince us otherwise :-)) -- Cheers! Graeme Nash

David G Fisher wrote: > I can't really find anything to disagree with in your post. :-) > > Get your son in some karts soon. Just make sure he'll be safe. > > What were you expecting Jan? > Well, if I remember well you claimed that "if even a 10 year old boy and my neighbour can do 1.28 in no time it ain't that very realistic" (in other words I know), this answer however shows that the boy himself is indeed talented and did practise a lot (under guidance) with GPL. His father also claims the boy beats him with every other "sim" except for GPL! I was interested what your reaction would be on this, I must admit it's a bit disappointing you only agree with him :>) Jan.

"Andre Warringa" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> On Mon, 01 May 2000 07:09:38 GMT, "David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> > wrote: > >But all those games started > to become boring after a couple of weeks. GPL still fascinates me > after 2 years. I don't think I'm the only one with this opinion, you > hated it that people mostly talk about GPL here, and that RC2000 is > hardly discussed, but did you ever wonder why that is?

R.a.s. became THE GPL forum. Niche product with a niche forum. I don't hate that RC 2000 isn't discussed at r.a.s. very much. I could care less. If I wanted to discuss it so badly I would discuss it at the HG forum with it's 20,000 + RC posts over the last six months. Actually, I've only posted there once in the last 5 months so obviously I don't have the same devotion to a sim as you do. BTW, if you think more people "discussed" GPL in this world today than did RC 2000, you're a dreamer. GPL was a sales flop compared to RC 2000. Unless the people who bought RC 2000 are forced to wear gags around their mouths....... > >> >Don't forget the hundreds and hundreds of hours, and thousands of laps > >that > >> >those recored holders have in their pocket. I've said it before, GPLis > >no > >> >different to me than any other sim or ARCADE racing game I've ever > >> >experienced. As long as I'm sitting in front of a computer monitor inmy > >> >socks, and unaffected physically, than they are all basically thesame. > >When > >> >it comes to car sims, you and some others here have lower standardsthan > >I > >> >do, which is why you have a hard time understanding my views onphysics

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> >and > >> >realism. > > Ok, wake up: No current computer sim will give you a REAL racing > experence. No forces, no smell, no fear, etc. > We're talking about simulators here, games that come as close to the > real thing as possible. Ofcourse they're games and not like the real > thing, come on! > > >> I, GPL fanatic, have a lower standard when it comes to physics and > >> realism than you, RC2000 fanatic? O-k ... > > > >If you think GPL is a realistic racing experience which no other sim > >approaches, then your standards are way below mine. It's NOTHING like > >driving a real car. It's an eye/hand coordination exercise with cartoon

cars > >and tracks which create a racing theme. > > GPL is of the current racing cames the one that comes closest to a > realistic racing experience, even if doesn't even come close to real > racing. If that's what you want to keep telling yourself, then fine. > >Just like F1 2000. > > > >If someday you try to tell Schumacher that racing GPL has anything at allin > >common with what he knows real racing to be (and a sim like F1 2000 > >doesn't), he'll laugh his a** off for almost as long as you'll practice > >Mosport this week. It's as similiar to what he does as is baking a cakewith > >a recipe from Martha Stewart. > > I think/hope you got my point by now. Yes, after two years of racing GPL every day, you've convinced yourself it's realistic to justify all the time you've spent with it, and nothing said by anyone else has any chance whatsoever of changing your mind. Don't worry, you're not the only one. David G Fisher

Matt said: > > > > The sims can become as good as true life, but our problem is theinterface > > with the car. Let's say a Formula Ford was rigged with fly-by wire, and > you had all the controls via a PC. Now Why On Earth would that simulatorbe > more precise than one that was programmed as a PC system? Would it givemore feedback? Would the racing be more real? >David said: > It would be a little more precise since there are always guesses involvedin > a sim's physics model. Also, one little miscalculation or slightly wrong > guess can ruin the whole feel. Ok, well, I would'nt say guesses, more like "shortcuts".

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> > In my mind, the fly-by wire ff would be only slightly more realistic an > experience than the PC sim, but still miles away from the real thing. > > > > Matt/ > > thought-machine off, and expecting no comments as usual.

Well, now it's getting interesting! Then, what is real? If you drive a car with a PC remotely, it certainly **drives. Ultimately this could mean that simulators are usesless? Or that the word "simulator" is a contradiction in itself? How could we possibly come closer to simulating a racing car than driving it for real through a computer interface? > > Is the "no comments" directed at me? I know my news reader has missed some > of your posts in the past (noticed this in a deja news search ), so if I > didn't reply, that's the reason. > > David G Fisher Mmm, a bit at you, but when I have these trips trying to get into a deeper discussion, it's usually not replied to :-D Oh no, I'm starting a normal thread! (No I'm not!) Matt

On Tue, 02 May 2000 22:39:51 GMT, "David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote: >I'll say it again, 1:16 is not the record for that track. I don't know what >it will eventually be, but that isn't it. I'll say it again, 1:16 was the fastest lap I could find, by someone who is one of the faster drivers among us, and I broke that time within 2 hours. And I also don't know what the record time eventually will be. Guess what? Nobody knows! >Do you really think you can match or beat the best times of any racing game >(sim or arcde) after just a couple of hours? Apparently... >GPL, POD, CPR, GP2, F1 RS, MGPRS2, F1 2000, RC 2000. Whatever driving game >I've tried, no matter how different to eachother they are, I always end up >at about the same level in comparison with the top times and online drivers. >That's because none are much more realistic than the other. You did a 1:28 lap on Monza in GPL? Call me again when you do a 1:26... Andre

On Wed, 03 May 2000 00:26:49 GMT, "David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote: <snip lots of repetitive text> >> I think/hope you got my point by now. > >Yes, after two years of racing GPL every day, you've convinced yourself it's >realistic to justify all the time you've spent with it, and nothing said by >anyone else has any chance whatsoever of changing your mind. Don't worry, >you're not the only one. Perhaps it's time to come to an agreement. I think GPL is the most realistic sim available for the PC, you don't. You just set your filter to automatically skip all the GPL posts, so we won't have to get into this endless discussion again and again. When WSC or GP3 is released, we'll see each other again to talk about those sims, ok? Andre > > >David G Fisher >

"Matthew B.Knutsen" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:HeOP4.2216$[email hidden]... > > It would be a little more precise since there are always guessesinvolved > in > > a sim's physics model. Also, one little miscalculation or slightly wrong > > guess can ruin the whole feel. > > Ok, well, I would'nt say guesses, more like "shortcuts". Papyrus had to guess on issues like grip level with GPL since they didn't have a '67 F1 car during development.

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> > > > In my mind, the fly-by wire ff would be only slightly more realistic an > > experience than the PC sim, but still miles away from the real thing. > > > > > > > Matt/ > > > thought-machine off, and expecting no comments as usual. > > Well, now it's getting interesting! Then, what is real? If you drive a car > with a PC remotely, it certainly **drives. > Ultimately this could mean that simulators are usesless? Or that the word > "simulator" is a contradiction in itself? > How could we possibly come closer to simulating a racing car than driving

it > for real through a computer interface? Would I be wearing a VR headset with 360 degrees of vision and photo realistic graphics? Would I be strapped into a seat which let me feel g-forces, bumps, collisions, etc.? If not, then it would still be what we have today. Actually, it would kind of be like sitting in front of a computer monitor, and TELLING some creep how you want them to make love to Elle McPherson, instead of doing it yourself. Real life physics, but not anywhere near as fun for you, right? The problem today is not the physics models, but the hardware which we use. As others have said, you can have a perfect physics model in a sim, but since so much feedback is missing, the overall experience can be less realisitc than a sim which gets the "feel" right by fudging the physics code. I may be wrong, but I believe Crammond feels the same way. David G Fisher

Good one. Still, the truth is that I never post at the RC forum at HG, so Andre's claims ARE silly. David G Fisher "Graeme Nash" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> > >I could care less. > > Why does this expression keep appearing here on ras? I always thought it > was "I *couldn't* care less"...? > > Although in DGF's case, the original statement is probably closer to the > truth, despite his efforts to convince us otherwise :-)) > > -- > Cheers! > Graeme Nash

David G Fisher <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:Ak_P4.169499$[email hidden]... > > Ok, well, I would'nt say guesses, more like "shortcuts". > > Papyrus had to guess on issues like grip level with GPL since they didn't > have a '67 F1 car during development. nag nag, don't start on GPL :-D Suppose the F12k people know anything even close to the aerodynamic values of a current F1? Grip level can easily be calculated. "easily" with modern software anyway, it's all down to the law of physics, and is very much easier on a car that has no aerodynamic downforce, or relatively none. Easier to simulate a beetle than a McLaren GTR .. > > > > Well, now it's getting interesting! Then, what is real? If you drive acar > > with a PC remotely, it certainly **drives. > > Ultimately this could mean that simulators are usesless? Or that theword > > "simulator" is a contradiction in itself? > > How could we possibly come closer to simulating a racing car thandriving

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> it > > for real through a computer interface? > > Would I be wearing a VR headset with 360 degrees of vision and photo > realistic graphics? Would I be strapped into a seat which let me feel > g-forces, bumps, collisions, etc.? If not, then it would still be what we > have today. Actually, it would kind of be like sitting in front of a > computer monitor, and TELLING some creep how you want them to make love to > Elle McPherson, instead of doing it yourself. Real life physics, but not > anywhere near as fun for you, right?

LOL! True! But if I were (and I'm probably going to) strap into that much gear, spending that much $, I'd rather drive a cheap race car...and I don't see this happening anytime soon on the mass market. Witness no. of hyperstims out there vs. sims..... > > The problem today is not the physics models, but the hardware which weuse. > As others have said, you can have a perfect physics model in a sim, but > since so much feedback is missing, the overall experience can be less > realisitc than a sim which gets the "feel" right by fudging the physics > code. I may be wrong, but I believe Crammond feels the same way. Hmm, well, yes, agreed. But I'm looking for how good a sim can be with the current hardware. No matter what, we'll never be in a racecar in front of our PC and drive along. Only way would be to stack the monitor on top of the cockpit or drive with VR glasses...8o) Matt > David G Fisher > > >

Bruce, I understand your point. What I am referring to is this line from your original post: <snip> > > Bruce Kennewell wrote: > it indicates that there is something about the subject or object > > > that still holds a slight interest for them!!<snip> > > > Regards, > > > Bruce Kennewell, > > > Canberra, Australia. > > > --------------------------- That's the part that I think you have wrong. Just imagine to declare that you couldn't care less would require the speaker to run various tests of the caring capacity of his soul to be literally correct. I contend again that in my experience the person saying this wants to convey the thought that he doesn't want to expend that effort, doesn't have even a smidgen of interest in the question before him and is very close in fact to punching me in the nose! I think this may be a good example of how words can be misunderstood by people who *almost* speak the same language. ;) p.s. It is an honor to have this dialog with the Bard of the Antipodes! and have the opportunity to ask you if you have tried to recreate the sound of the 1967, 1968 Indy turbine cars by substituting the *wind* sound for the engine sound? I have found it works great and sounds very authentic on replays. arcman

Not true. The people that say that, in my experience, are expressing boredom in their response. They seem to think it's more of a put down to express it in this odd way. I am kind of an expert by being on the receiving end of that comment alot here in America! arcman Bruce Kennewell wrote:

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> > It _appears_ to be an Americanism. The odd thing about the way they say it > is that it indicates that there is something about the subject or object > that still holds a slight interest for them!! > > Poms, Aussies and Kiwis invariably say "couldn't", indicating that they have > absolutely no interest in the matter whatsoever. > > -- > Regards, > Bruce Kennewell, > Canberra, Australia. > --------------------------- > > Graeme Nash <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > > > >I could care less. > > > > Why does this expression keep appearing here on ras? I always thought it > > was "I *couldn't* care less"...? > > > > Although in DGF's case, the original statement is probably closer to the > > truth, despite his efforts to convince us otherwise :-)) > > > > -- > > Cheers! > > Graeme Nash

On Wed, 03 May 2000 19:57:21 GMT, "David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote: >Good one. > >Still, the truth is that I never post at the RC forum at HG, so Andre's >claims ARE silly. Except that I never stated that you do post at HG's forum... I was talking about your RC2000 posts here, in which you defended the 'real life physics' of RC2000 with all your life. Too bad you never answered direct questions from people like Remco Moedt when they confronted you with some weak points in the physics model. Then you said that your sim physics standards were higher than mine. Now that WAS silly. Andre

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> >David G Fisher > >"Graeme Nash" <[email hidden]> wrote in message >news:[email hidden]... >> >> >I could care less. >> >> Why does this expression keep appearing here on ras? I always thought it >> was "I *couldn't* care less"...? >> >> Although in DGF's case, the original statement is probably closer to the >> truth, despite his efforts to convince us otherwise :-)) >> >> -- >> Cheers! >> Graeme Nash >

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>The problem today is not the physics models, but the hardware which we use. >As others have said, you can have a perfect physics model in a sim, but >since so much feedback is missing, the overall experience can be less >realisitc than a sim which gets the "feel" right by fudging the physics >code. I may be wrong, but I believe Crammond feels the same way. > >David G Fisher

Wanna hear which game got the "feel" of racing right? Andre

You mean you've got more than one? --DK

It _appears_ to be an Americanism. The odd thing about the way they say it is that it indicates that there is something about the subject or object that still holds a slight interest for them!! Poms, Aussies and Kiwis invariably say "couldn't", indicating that they have absolutely no interest in the matter whatsoever. -- Regards, Bruce Kennewell, Canberra, Australia. --------------------------- Graeme Nash <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > > >I could care less. > > Why does this expression keep appearing here on ras? I always thought it > was "I *couldn't* care less"...? > > Although in DGF's case, the original statement is probably closer to the > truth, despite his efforts to convince us otherwise :-)) > > -- > Cheers! > Graeme Nash

On Wed, 03 May 2000 18:36:16 GMT David G Fisher <[email hidden]> wrote: % The problem today is not the physics models, but the hardware which we use. % As others have said, you can have a perfect physics model in a sim, but % since so much feedback is missing, the overall experience can be less % realisitc than a sim which gets the "feel" right by fudging the physics % code. I may be wrong, but I believe Crammond feels the same way. If I recall correctly, one of the reasons GP2 took so long was that Crammond was struggling to find the perfect "fudges" for feel that his physics engine didn't translate. This does not imply anything, it was simply his "artistic" approach to programming. -- **************************** Michael E. Carver ************************* Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town. [email hidden] http://www.teleport.com/~mcarver =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./. [- < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

How about you filter my posts? David G Fisher "Andre Warringa" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> On Wed, 03 May 2000 00:26:49 GMT, "David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> > wrote: > > <snip lots of repetitive text> > > >> I think/hope you got my point by now. > > > >Yes, after two years of racing GPL every day, you've convinced yourself

it's > >realistic to justify all the time you've spent with it, and nothing saidby

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> >anyone else has any chance whatsoever of changing your mind. Don't worry, > >you're not the only one. > > Perhaps it's time to come to an agreement. I think GPL is the most > realistic sim available for the PC, you don't. > You just set your filter to automatically skip all the GPL posts, so > we won't have to get into this endless discussion again and again. > When WSC or GP3 is released, we'll see each other again to talk about > those sims, ok? > > Andre > > > > > > >David G Fisher > > >

"Andre Warringa" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> On Wed, 03 May 2000 19:57:21 GMT, "David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> > wrote: > > >Good one. > > > >Still, the truth is that I never post at the RC forum at HG, so Andre's > >claims ARE silly. > > Except that I never stated that you do post at HG's forum... > I was talking about your RC2000 posts here, in which you defended the > 'real life physics' of RC2000 with all your life.

No Andre. Here's what you really said. "you hated it that people mostly talk about GPL here, and that RC2000 is hardly discussed, but did you ever wonder why that is?" I pointed out the fact that I don't even talk about RC at the forum at HG which blows away all the others there in number of postings. That should be enough evidence for any sane person to see that I'm not obsessed with MY sim as you are with yours. Look at the number of postings for the various sims there http://forums.simracingnews.com/ , and tell me why I should care if GPL is talked about a lot here at r.a.s. The HG forums make it very clear what sim is most popular/talked about. If talking about RC was so deeply important to me, I would be a significant contributor to those 22,000 posts. Instead, I've posted once in the last 5 months. I don't really car how much it's talked about here, there, or anywhere. I know you want people to think that I am as obsessed with RC as you are with GPL, and therefor my opinions are biased, but my non-participation in RC talk proves you wrong. How many GPL posts do you have now? "but did you ever wonder why that is?" Just so there's no confusion. R.a.s. has become the main GPL forum. Mostly the same people (like yourself) posting over and over again for the past two years. Is there another popular GPL forum on the net? >Too bad you never > answered direct questions from people like Remco Moedt when they > confronted you with some weak points in the physics model. I don't remember the famous questions from Remco like you do. I do have a very good idea as to how a rally car handles in the BRC. I know that if you use the same techniques as the real drivers do, the car responds correctly. I know MF had about 20 people (pros and amateurs) with real rally experience provide input on the physics. And no, they weren't all used in the advertising either. AFAIK, only one small quote from one driver appears on the box. The ff is excellent, which would not be possible if the physics model was as bad as you claim. I gave my views on the RC physics model long ago, so don't try to imply that I've ducked the hard questions. I've simply moved on. Remember, not everyone sticks with the same sim, every day, for two years. > > Then you said that your sim physics standards were higher than mine. > Now that WAS silly. Yes, Andre, you've composed teery-eyed poems of love to the GPL physics model, and claimed it's amazing realism over and over again. Nothing else comes close according to you. I feel like I'm guiding a cartoon GPL car on a cartoon track. I want a lot more from an auto sim in the physics department before I'll ever send flowers and candy on Valentine's day to it's programmer. David G Fisher

I'm referring to the literal meaning of the phrase, Chris. "I could care less" implies that there is still room to care even less than one does at the time the statement is made. "I couldn't care less" says that speaker is completely uninterested and doesn't have an ounce of concern left. -- Regards, Bruce Kennewell, Canberra, Australia. --------------------------- Christopher Rossie <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > Not true. The people that say that, in my experience, are expressing > boredom in their response. They seem to think it's more of a put down > to express it in this odd way. I am kind of an expert by being on the > receiving end of that comment alot here in America! > arcman > > Bruce Kennewell wrote: > > > > It _appears_ to be an Americanism. The odd thing about the way they say it > > is that it indicates that there is something about the subject or object > > that still holds a slight interest for them!! > > > > Poms, Aussies and Kiwis invariably say "couldn't", indicating that they have > > absolutely no interest in the matter whatsoever. > > > > -- > > Regards, > > Bruce Kennewell, > > Canberra, Australia. > > --------------------------- > > > > Graeme Nash <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:[email hidden]... > > > > > > >I could care less. > > > > > > Why does this expression keep appearing here on ras? I always thought it > > > was "I *couldn't* care less"...? > > > > > > Although in DGF's case, the original statement is probably closer to the > > > truth, despite his efforts to convince us otherwise :-)) > > > > > > -- > > > Cheers! > > > Graeme Nash

You mean you've got more than one? --DK "David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:lllQ4.171576$[email hidden]... > How about you filter my posts? > > David G Fisher

<SNIP> Andre

LOL . . .perfect. --DK > <SNIP> > >David G Fisher

Yes...I understand what you are saying, Chris. I think it's just an indication of the sometimes subtle differences between two (or more) nationalities using the same language.....as subtle as the one-letter difference between 'aluminum' and 'aluminium', in fact! No, I have not tried the "Whispering Sam' effect yet in GPL........I am enjoying the raucous blast of the V12 too much!! -- Regards, Bruce Kennewell, Canberra, Australia. --------------------------- Christopher Rossie <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > Bruce, I understand your point. What I am referring to > is this line from your original post: > > <snip> > > > Bruce Kennewell wrote: > > it indicates that there is something about the subject or object > > > > that still holds a slight interest for them!! > <snip> > > > > Regards, > > > > Bruce Kennewell, > > > > Canberra, Australia. > > > > --------------------------- > > That's the part that I think you have wrong. Just imagine to declare > that you couldn't care less would require the speaker to run various > tests of the caring capacity of his soul to be literally correct. > I contend again that in my experience the person saying this wants > to convey the thought that he doesn't want to expend that effort, > doesn't have even a smidgen of interest in the question before him > and is very close in fact to punching me in the nose! I think this > may be a good example of how words can be misunderstood by people > who *almost* speak the same language. ;) > p.s. It is an honor to have this dialog with the Bard of the Antipodes! > and have the opportunity to ask you if you have tried > to recreate the sound of the 1967, 1968 Indy turbine cars by > substituting the *wind* sound for the engine sound? I have found > it works great and sounds very authentic on replays. > arcman

On Thu, 04 May 2000 21:43:55 GMT, "David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote: <SNIP> >David G Fisher Andre

If only DGF did that once in a while.... > <SNIP> > >David G Fisher > Andre

LOL . . .perfect. --DK "Andre Warringa" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > On Thu, 04 May 2000 21:43:55 GMT, "David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> > wrote: > > <SNIP> > > >David G Fisher

If only DGF did that once in a while.... Andre Warringa <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> On Thu, 04 May 2000 21:43:55 GMT, "David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> > wrote: > > <SNIP> > > >David G Fisher > > Andre > >

I take back what I said last week about GPL fanatics being "cute" in the way they always back eachother up. Now I think it's adorable. David G Fisher "Ace" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:8f1llc$mr2$[email hidden]...

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> If only DGF did that once in a while.... > > Andre Warringa <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > On Thu, 04 May 2000 21:43:55 GMT, "David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> > > wrote: > > > > <SNIP> > > > > >David G Fisher > > > > Andre > > > > > >

I'm assuming that "Adorable" is one step better than "cute", right? I read your post, and I thought it was 5KB too much, and Andre's response was bang on. I do not really care for the slanging matches you have with others on this NG, and it often seems to me that you do everything you can to rubbish GPL, and belittle those who hold it in high regard. You don't like it. Fine. Some of us do, and this is an appropriate forum to discuss it on. David G Fisher <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:%U_Q4.174712$[email hidden]... > I take back what I said last week about GPL fanatics being "cute" in theway

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> they always back each other up. > > Now I think it's adorable. > > David G Fisher > >

<<snipped>>

Stop the Press! Another micro-adjustment to Davy G's Smugness Ratio. --DK "David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:%U_Q4.174712$[email hidden]... > I take back what I said last week about GPL fanatics being "cute" in theway > they always back eachother up. > > Now I think it's adorable. > > David G Fisher