Re: GP3 and Force-Feedback

I wonder whether the G.C.-club has ever made any attempt to have a look at what already has been achieved with online-racing and ff-implementation in GPL? Or are they just too stubborn and too self-assured to do this! As much as I like the MP3-movies (especially the latest Silverstone-shooting) I get more and more disappointed on what has been left out of this sim. J. "Simon Brown" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:j%UU4.207$[email hidden]... > Apparantly GP3 in unlikely to support Force Feedback. Can you believethis? > What a short sighted decision. Nick Court says they tested it for ages, > months ago and couldn't get it to do exactly what they wanted it to do.So > how come everyone else can. Surely even a poor effort at FF like in F12000 > would be better than nothing. > It's a real shame because I just saw the new 18 MB GP3 video releasedtoday > and it looks absolutely terrific. > Roll on GP4... > >

I'm starting to think that GP3 shouldn't be released on July 28, Microprose should just wait for GP4 and release that as GP3. David C (R4) Simon Brown <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:j%UU4.207$[email hidden]... > Apparantly GP3 in unlikely to support Force Feedback. Can you believethis? > What a short sighted decision. Nick Court says they tested it for ages, > months ago and couldn't get it to do exactly what they wanted it to do.So > how come everyone else can. Surely even a poor effort at FF like in F12000 > would be better than nothing. > It's a real shame because I just saw the new 18 MB GP3 video releasedtoday > and it looks absolutely terrific. > Roll on GP4... > >

Apparantly GP3 in unlikely to support Force Feedback. Can you believe this? What a short sighted decision. Nick Court says they tested it for ages, months ago and couldn't get it to do exactly what they wanted it to do. So how come everyone else can. Surely even a poor effort at FF like in F1 2000 would be better than nothing. It's a real shame because I just saw the new 18 MB GP3 video released today and it looks absolutely terrific. Roll on GP4...

I have heard that ff will be in GP3. Anyone know for sure? As for online racing, GPL is not THE model Crammond would want to look to. MS's racing games at the Zone, Ratbag's Powerslide / DTR, and Papyrus's N2/N3 (surely N4 too) are. David G Fisher "Jan Hovius" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:8g1hjs$i0j$[email hidden]... > I wonder whether the G.C.-club has ever made any attempt to have a look at > what already has been achieved with online-racing and ff-implementation in > GPL? Or are they just too stubborn and too self-assured to do this! Asmuch > as I like the MP3-movies (especially the latest Silverstone-shooting) Iget

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> more and more disappointed on what has been left out of this sim. > > J. > > > "Simon Brown" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:j%UU4.207$[email hidden]... > > Apparantly GP3 in unlikely to support Force Feedback. Can you believe > this? > > What a short sighted decision. Nick Court says they tested it for ages, > > months ago and couldn't get it to do exactly what they wanted it to do. > So > > how come everyone else can. Surely even a poor effort at FF like in F1 > 2000 > > would be better than nothing. > > It's a real shame because I just saw the new 18 MB GP3 video released > today > > and it looks absolutely terrific. > > Roll on GP4... > > > > > >

In what way are those others superior to GPL? Having no experience with either of them I'd like to know how they, if at all, overcome the problems associated with latency and packet loss? -How do they deal with position warp, faulty collision prediction? I'm pretty sure the net is in no way nicer to those games than to GPL, so if the methods they use are common knowledge we can look forward to faultless online racing in all future releases! Jan. =--- David G Fisher wrote...

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> I have heard that ff will be in GP3. Anyone know for sure? > > As for online racing, GPL is not THE model Crammond would want to look to. > > MS's racing games at the Zone, Ratbag's Powerslide / DTR, and Papyrus's > N2/N3 (surely N4 too) are. > > David G Fisher > > > <snip>

Guess that goes along with them not supporting internet play either. -- Don Burnette Dburn in N3 and Legends "Simon Brown" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:j%UU4.207$[email hidden]... > Apparantly GP3 in unlikely to support Force Feedback. Can you believe this? > What a short sighted decision. Nick Court says they tested it for ages, > months ago and couldn't get it to do exactly what they wanted it to do. So > how come everyone else can. Surely even a poor effort at FF like in F1 2000 > would be better than nothing. > It's a real shame because I just saw the new 18 MB GP3 video released today > and it looks absolutely terrific. > Roll on GP4... > >

David Cane wrote: > > I'm starting to think that GP3 shouldn't be released on July 28, Microprose > should just wait for GP4 and release that as GP3. > Yep, just take the time & perfect it further. Then release it just before the '01 season begins. Nah...makes too much sense. -- Chuck Kandler #70 K&S Racing http://www.fortunecity.com/silverstone/thepits/195 Competitor in the TopGear MGPRS2 league at: http://topgear.dhs.org/ Come on & join the fun! They'll call you names And spit in your face, But legends never die. --Gene Simmons

"David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote > I have heard that ff will be in GP3. Anyone know for sure? They said at E3 it wouldn't have FF. As with many other things, since their excuse seem to be "it distracts from the racing". Mmm yeah pit radio??? It was in GP2 at 90% for Christ's sake! Talk about lazy programming after 4-5years of development. Im slowly thinking we will not have a quality F1 simulation until another year or two. -- -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> -- May the Downforce be with you... -- http://www.WeRace.net -- People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world.

Jan, I sense just a weeee bit of sarcasm in your post. The Ratbag developers, for example, have created a unique internet multiplay system. They use innovative compression techniques and quaternionic orientation smoothing to deal with internet latency problems. Their system compensates for the deficiencies in a network. It has a system of even information distribution and synchronisation between the different players that allows the game to continue smoothly even if a player(s), including the host, drops out. :-P As for the others, I don't know all their secrets as I don't currently own a sim development company. I do know, after 3 years of online play with a number of different racing sims/games (POD, CPR, MTM2, N2, Powerslide, DTR), that GPL was the only game I suffered from mind numbing frequent disconnects (and watched/heard of many others go through the same) and unusual amounts of warping. Even my time with POD from three years ago was very stable online. Disco's were never an issue. I made it to the finals of their $10,000 tournament and everything went smooth for all involved. I also made it to the finals of a sponsored MTM2 tournament (there was another with a grand prize being a truck), and disco's were again not an issue. If those games performed the way GPL did, the tournaments never could have happened because of the disco chaos that would of ensued. They may have been arcade racers, but the contestants were VERY serious, very practiced, very skilled, and the prizes were pretty damn good ($10,000, an expensive truck, trips, video cards, controllers, etc.) The best known racers did end up placing highest as they should have. Disconnects would have ruined everything, and the results would have been as accurate as a coin toss. With the other games, I also did not have to go through a lengthy process of altering files, downloading programs, changing my old modem settings (like turning my 56k down to 28.8 which is rather sad), and other hoop jumping requirements. You really should give sme of the other games a try online. I bet TRI does a superb job with their upcoming 4 x 4 Evolution online play. And no, I'm not Papyrus bashing because they certainly know what they are doing with online play, as my earlier references to N2/N3 prove. They may even be the best at it, but GPL wasn't the sim to look to for proof. David G Fisher "Jan Verschueren" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:8IZU4.13748$[email hidden]... > In what way are those others superior to GPL? > > Having no experience with either of them I'd like to know how they, if at > all, overcome the problems associated with latency and packet loss? -Howdo > they deal with position warp, faulty collision prediction? > > I'm pretty sure the net is in no way nicer to those games than to GPL, soif

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> the methods they use are common knowledge we can look forward to faultless > online racing in all future releases! > > Jan. > =--- > David G Fisher wrote... > > I have heard that ff will be in GP3. Anyone know for sure? > > > > As for online racing, GPL is not THE model Crammond would want to look

to.

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> > > > MS's racing games at the Zone, Ratbag's Powerslide / DTR, and Papyrus's > > N2/N3 (surely N4 too) are. > > > > David G Fisher > > > > > > <snip> > >

I guess it really won't then. Just to be fair to Crammond, I'll remind you how Papyrus felt about ff in GPL (another game which was in development for a number of years). They didn't include it until nine months after the game's release supposedly because they didn't think ff was worthwhile. Maybe Crammond is such a perfectionist that in his mind, ff technology still isn't good enough. I don't agree with him. He doesn't care if I do. Also, GPL was a game programmed for LAN play, not TCP/IP, just like GP3. I remember very clearly who the beta tester was who relayed this information from Papyrus, when they said it, and where. IMO, GP3 won't have TCP/IP play because they couldn't/wouldn't pay the fee for the rights to do so. Maybe GP4 will have both features. David G Fisher "ymenard" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:jr1V4.89034$[email hidden]... > "David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote > > I have heard that ff will be in GP3. Anyone know for sure? > > > They said at E3 it wouldn't have FF. As with many other things, sincetheir > excuse seem to be "it distracts from the racing". Mmm yeah pit radio???It

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> was in GP2 at 90% for Christ's sake! Talk about lazy programming after > 4-5years of development. Im slowly thinking we will not have a quality F1 > simulation until another year or two. > > > > > -- > -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> > -- May the Downforce be with you... > -- http://www.WeRace.net > -- People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't

realise > how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world. > > >

On Fri, 19 May 2000 02:13:35 GMT, "ymenard" <[email hidden]> wrote:

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>"David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote >> I have heard that ff will be in GP3. Anyone know for sure? > > >They said at E3 it wouldn't have FF. As with many other things, since their >excuse seem to be "it distracts from the racing". Mmm yeah pit radio??? It >was in GP2 at 90% for Christ's sake! Talk about lazy programming after >4-5years of development. Im slowly thinking we will not have a quality F1 >simulation until another year or two.

Incredible. The 'rain' feature in World Circuit was comically implemented, then GP2 never had rain, nor 3d acceleration, and face it, the game had really poor-ass optimization. Even Ubisoft mentioned the lack of authenticity- RPMs weren't modeled to affect speed, etc etc. Now no FF, in a time when everything supports it. Incredible. Simple fix- don't buy it. I can excuse GPL's lack of initial support- it wasn't widespread at the time- but given what the GPL patch did, there's no excuse. GPL's FF effects actually add to the, uh, controlability, and I'd have expected Crammond's sim to do the same. "detracts from the racing"?? The only thing it detracts from is the ship-date, or more to the point, the bottom line (aka cash-flow). While I like the Crammond-sims as much as the rest of the crowd, let's face it, the poorly optimized graphics and so on leave a lot to be desired. Lack of FF only brings out another shortcoming. I might try a demo of GP3, but frankly, given GPL's capabilities, well, I don't need a modern-day F1 sim if it ain't got FF.

Hasbro and GP3 Team could probably try lo license Ratbag internet play routine. And it won't be the first to do that kind of thing. If i remember correctly, Activision has got a license to use the Quake3 graphics engine in their games. Bye Coco David G Fisher wrote:

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> Jan, I sense just a weeee bit of sarcasm in your post. > > The Ratbag developers, for example, have created a unique internet multiplay > system. They use innovative compression techniques and quaternionic > orientation smoothing to deal with internet latency problems. Their system > compensates for the deficiencies in a network. It has a system of even > information distribution and synchronisation between the different players > that allows the game to continue smoothly even if a player(s), including the > host, drops out. > > :-P > > As for the others, I don't know all their secrets as I don't currently own a > sim development company. I do know, after 3 years of online play with a > number of different racing sims/games (POD, CPR, MTM2, N2, Powerslide, DTR), > that GPL was the only game I suffered from mind numbing frequent disconnects > (and watched/heard of many others go through the same) and unusual amounts > of warping. Even my time with POD from three years ago was very stable > online. Disco's were never an issue. I made it to the finals of their > $10,000 tournament and everything went smooth for all involved. I also made > it to the finals of a sponsored MTM2 tournament (there was another with a > grand prize being a truck), and disco's were again not an issue. If those > games performed the way GPL did, the tournaments never could have happened > because of the disco chaos that would of ensued. They may have been arcade > racers, but the contestants were VERY serious, very practiced, very skilled, > and the prizes were pretty damn good ($10,000, an expensive truck, trips, > video cards, controllers, etc.) The best known racers did end up placing > highest as they should have. Disconnects would have ruined everything, and > the results would have been as accurate as a coin toss. > > With the other games, I also did not have to go through a lengthy process of > altering files, downloading programs, changing my old modem settings (like > turning my 56k down to 28.8 which is rather sad), and other hoop jumping > requirements. > > You really should give sme of the other games a try online. I bet TRI does a > superb job with their upcoming 4 x 4 Evolution online play. > > And no, I'm not Papyrus bashing because they certainly know what they are > doing with online play, as my earlier references to N2/N3 prove. They may > even be the best at it, but GPL wasn't the sim to look to for proof. > > David G Fisher > > "Jan Verschueren" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:8IZU4.13748$[email hidden]... > > In what way are those others superior to GPL? > > > > Having no experience with either of them I'd like to know how they, if at > > all, overcome the problems associated with latency and packet loss? -How > do > > they deal with position warp, faulty collision prediction? > > > > I'm pretty sure the net is in no way nicer to those games than to GPL, so > if > > the methods they use are common knowledge we can look forward to faultless > > online racing in all future releases! > > > > Jan. > > =--- > > David G Fisher wrote... > > > I have heard that ff will be in GP3. Anyone know for sure? > > > > > > As for online racing, GPL is not THE model Crammond would want to look > to. > > > > > > MS's racing games at the Zone, Ratbag's Powerslide / DTR, and Papyrus's > > > N2/N3 (surely N4 too) are. > > > > > > David G Fisher > > > > > > > > > <snip> > > > >

Yeah, they must keep some improvements for incoming version 4,5 and so on, otherwise if they gave us everything at once, they won't make as much money !!!! Bye Coco David G Fisher wrote:

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> I guess it really won't then. > > Just to be fair to Crammond, I'll remind you how Papyrus felt about ff in > GPL (another game which was in development for a number of years). They > didn't include it until nine months after the game's release supposedly > because they didn't think ff was worthwhile. Maybe Crammond is such a > perfectionist that in his mind, ff technology still isn't good enough. I > don't agree with him. He doesn't care if I do. > > Also, GPL was a game programmed for LAN play, not TCP/IP, just like GP3. I > remember very clearly who the beta tester was who relayed this information > from Papyrus, when they said it, and where. > > IMO, GP3 won't have TCP/IP play because they couldn't/wouldn't pay the fee > for the rights to do so. > > Maybe GP4 will have both features. > > David G Fisher > > "ymenard" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:jr1V4.89034$[email hidden]... > > "David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote > > > I have heard that ff will be in GP3. Anyone know for sure? > > > > > > They said at E3 it wouldn't have FF. As with many other things, since > their > > excuse seem to be "it distracts from the racing". Mmm yeah pit radio??? > It > > was in GP2 at 90% for Christ's sake! Talk about lazy programming after > > 4-5years of development. Im slowly thinking we will not have a quality F1 > > simulation until another year or two. > > > > > > > > > > -- > > -- François Ménard <ymenard> > > -- May the Downforce be with you... > > -- http://www.WeRace.net > > -- People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't > realise > > how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world. > > > > > >

Remember 3D cards, went on the market a few months after GP2 did, this is why, there isn't a 3D accelarated GP2, just to put you on the right context. Bye Coco Jeff Salzmann wrote:

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> On Fri, 19 May 2000 02:13:35 GMT, "ymenard" <[email hidden]> > wrote: > > >"David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote > >> I have heard that ff will be in GP3. Anyone know for sure? > > > > > >They said at E3 it wouldn't have FF. As with many other things, since their > >excuse seem to be "it distracts from the racing". Mmm yeah pit radio??? It > >was in GP2 at 90% for Christ's sake! Talk about lazy programming after > >4-5years of development. Im slowly thinking we will not have a quality F1 > >simulation until another year or two. > > Incredible. The 'rain' feature in World Circuit was comically > implemented, then GP2 never had rain, nor 3d acceleration, and face > it, the game had really poor-ass optimization. Even Ubisoft mentioned > the lack of authenticity- RPMs weren't modeled to affect speed, etc > etc. Now no FF, in a time when everything supports it. Incredible. > > Simple fix- don't buy it. I can excuse GPL's lack of initial support- > it wasn't widespread at the time- but given what the GPL patch did, > there's no excuse. GPL's FF effects actually add to the, uh, > controlability, and I'd have expected Crammond's sim to do the same. > > "detracts from the racing"?? The only thing it detracts from is the > ship-date, or more to the point, the bottom line (aka cash-flow). > > While I like the Crammond-sims as much as the rest of the crowd, let's > face it, the poorly optimized graphics and so on leave a lot to be > desired. Lack of FF only brings out another shortcoming. > > I might try a demo of GP3, but frankly, given GPL's capabilities, > well, I don't need a modern-day F1 sim if it ain't got FF.

On Fri, 19 May 2000 11:57:40 GMT, [email hidden] wrote: >Remember 3D cards, went on the market a few months after GP2 did, this is why, >there isn't a 3D accelarated >GP2, just to put you on the right context. > >Bye Coco > Right...my point though, was that there was never a patch for it. GPL had no FF support saying "not accurate enough" but patched it in later. And it certainly seemed accurate enough. The point was that GP2 didn't get patched onto 3D support.

> While I like the Crammond-sims as much as the rest of the crowd, let's > face it, the poorly optimized graphics and so on leave a lot to be > desired. Thanks God for EA's F1200 with perfectly optimized graphics! Borut

GP2 is not like GPL. GPL was developed with 3D cards in mind ( well, at least 3dfx&Rendition ) and that's why it's software mode sux big time and GP2 was not, as there were no 3D cards on the market. It's not just a matter or patching the game to support 3D accelerators. They would have to rewrite quite a portion of the original GP2 to add 3D support. Borut

Really? -I've got to start giving you more credit David. ;-) As another poster sort of pointed out, all this is propriety technology, so whatever the developers look at as an example they're still going to have to work it out for themselves. This means we take pot luck as to how good the online play, game locating software and chat interface are going to be for any given title. That being said... having online playability is becoming as much of a pre-requisite for a racing simulation as having a cockpit view, so not to see it implemented in GP3 is very dissapointing. I would love to try more stuff online, but to have a reasonable gaming experience requires at least some prowess at the chosen game. In other words: so many sims, so little time... Planning on at least giving SBK2000 and NFS:PU a go online though. Jan. =--- David G Fisher wrote... > Jan, I sense just a weeee bit of sarcasm in your post. > > <snip>

The reason GP2 didn't get the 3d card treatment is that from as early as 3 months after it's release GC was already working on GP3. Also it was just too early.