Re: NFSPU: If it smells like a sim . . .

I like Porsche Unleashed a lot, but I'd still give the nod to Viper. He didn't mention anything about the silly damage model, which kills about 75% of the sim-ness in Porsche Unleashed. I don't think it's arguable that damage should be excluded from the damage model, since he's comparing things like donuts. I've tried some goofy real life stunts in a Jeep off road. I can actually do the Porsche Unleashed stunt of driving backwards, brake hard, spin, go forward. It's not easy to do, and never happens the same way twice -that's why they do it on wet streets for TV shows. A low traction surface makes the car slide better and behave more consistently than the "slip and grab" of dry pavement. What he says about Viper doing a 360 sounds much closer to reality than his description of the same stunt in Porsche Unleashed. He said 180's and 360's were easy in Porsche Unleashed, then gave it the nod by 2 points. There is no way its easy to do 360's on dry street in a Porsche with huge 17" tires. Tim On Tue, 23 May 2000 19:57:31 -0500, "John Bodin" <[email hidden]> wrote:

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>Ty Brewer over at Games Domain did an interesting article titled "Driving >Test," where he puts several sims/games through their paces to try to >duplicate real-world driving responses. The result? NFSPU came out on top! >Check out the review: > >http://www.gamesdomain.co.uk/gdr.cgi?depart/may00/driving.html > >This just reaffirms my belief that it doesn't have to be overly-difficult to >be realistic, and just because it's realistic doesn't mean that it can't be >fun. > > >-- JB > > > >

He's testing how closely various sims match his preconcieved ideas about what makes a realistic sim. Might be useful info for someone who's own opinions happen to match his, but for anyone else its completely pointless. It's not an objective test at all. -A John Bodin <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:hUFW4.607$[email hidden]...

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> Ty Brewer over at Games Domain did an interesting article titled "Driving > Test," where he puts several sims/games through their paces to try to > duplicate real-world driving responses. The result? NFSPU came out on top! > Check out the review: > > http://www.gamesdomain.co.uk/gdr.cgi?depart/may00/driving.html > > This just reaffirms my belief that it doesn't have to be overly-difficult

to > be realistic, and just because it's realistic doesn't mean that it can'tbe

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> fun. > > > -- JB > > > > >

On Wed, 24 May 2000 10:28:25 -0700, "Kirk Lane" <[email hidden]> wrote: >When you say 360, you mean just standing on it and watching the car go >around, right? Or do you mean just losing it in a turn? Latter is real >easy in pre-996 911s - just lift your right foot =) First definition would be a donut. I've never driven a 911, but from what I here, they 180 if you chop the throttle during oversteer due to the rear weight bias. It's not what the guys describing exactly if you read the article. Tim

John Bodin <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:g_PW4.618$[email hidden]... > So how would YOU put together an objective test? It's easy to snipe, but > it's a lot more difficult to come up with constructive suggestions (andI'm > sure that Ty would probably appreciate any constructive suggestions). Yes, it is easy to snipe. Fun, too! I can't think of a way to do a truly objective test on a limited budget, but that fact doesn't make Ty's ratings any more believable. -A

That's a bit misleading John. Actually 2 sims came top with an equal score; Sports Car GT and NFS:PU. Note for others - GPL and F1 2000 were not tested as the tester wanted to only compare road cars. Darren "John Bodin" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:hUFW4.607$[email hidden]...

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> Ty Brewer over at Games Domain did an interesting article titled "Driving > Test," where he puts several sims/games through their paces to try to > duplicate real-world driving responses. The result? NFSPU came out on top! > Check out the review: > > http://www.gamesdomain.co.uk/gdr.cgi?depart/may00/driving.html > > This just reaffirms my belief that it doesn't have to be overly-difficult

to > be realistic, and just because it's realistic doesn't mean that it can'tbe > fun.

Ty Brewer over at Games Domain did an interesting article titled "Driving Test," where he puts several sims/games through their paces to try to duplicate real-world driving responses. The result? NFSPU came out on top! Check out the review: http://www.gamesdomain.co.uk/gdr.cgi?depart/may00/driving.html This just reaffirms my belief that it doesn't have to be overly-difficult to be realistic, and just because it's realistic doesn't mean that it can't be fun. -- JB

I read the review. I know everyone has a right to their own opinions but I didn't agree with the test. There is just more to it then doing donuts and 180's to make a realistic handling sim. What about threshold braking ,slip angles, realistic shifting, accurate braking distances,ect.. If the game powerslide was based on a Dodge Viper I think he would of rated it pretty good because it's easy to spin. BTW, what's with the handbrake fetish? But like I said everyone has their own opinion. Tim O. wrote:

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> > I like Porsche Unleashed a lot, but I'd still give the nod to Viper. > He didn't mention anything about the silly damage model, which kills > about 75% of the sim-ness in Porsche Unleashed. > I don't think it's arguable that damage should be excluded from the > damage model, since he's comparing things like donuts. > > I've tried some goofy real life stunts in a Jeep off road. I can > actually do the Porsche Unleashed stunt of driving backwards, brake > hard, spin, go forward. > It's not easy to do, and never happens the same way twice -that's why > they do it on wet streets for TV shows. A low traction surface makes > the car slide better and behave more consistently than the "slip and > grab" of dry pavement. > > What he says about Viper doing a 360 sounds much closer to reality > than his description of the same stunt in Porsche Unleashed. > > He said 180's and 360's were easy in Porsche Unleashed, then gave it > the nod by 2 points. There is no way its easy to do 360's on dry > street in a Porsche with huge 17" tires. > > Tim > > On Tue, 23 May 2000 19:57:31 -0500, "John Bodin" > <[email hidden]> wrote: > > >Ty Brewer over at Games Domain did an interesting article titled "Driving > >Test," where he puts several sims/games through their paces to try to > >duplicate real-world driving responses. The result? NFSPU came out on top! > >Check out the review: > > > >http://www.gamesdomain.co.uk/gdr.cgi?depart/may00/driving.html > > > >This just reaffirms my belief that it doesn't have to be overly-difficult to > >be realistic, and just because it's realistic doesn't mean that it can't be > >fun. > > > > > >-- JB > > > > > > > >

"John Bodin" <[email hidden]> wrote > Ty Brewer over at Games Domain did an interesting article titled "Driving > Test," where he puts several sims/games through their paces to try to > duplicate real-world driving responses. The result? NFSPU came out on top! > Check out the review: Even if I find his review quite original, I sense an unusual amount of questionnable thinking in his article. Technically, he thinks that those stunts can all be done easily with all types of car. I feel that the stunts in NFS:PU are a little tad over-modeled, while the writer thinks it's realistic and gives low marks to any other games that doesn't do the stunts as easy as NFS:PU. Viper should have a 5 in the "stunts" departement. I do expect an almost complete lost of momentum if I try to do a 360 with such car! Low scores for under-steering in Viper? Darn, he must have some obvious car handling problems, since you understeer all the time with them beasts imho (well more of a "oversteering that push you on the outside lane"). He also made no mention of the incredibly poor wheel spin in Rally Championship on any kind of 4WD car. Still, kudos to EA for blending the sim and arcade features to please everybody. Let's hope that Nascar Heat will also achieve that level of blending. -- -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> -- May the Downforce be with you... -- http://www.WeRace.net -- People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world.

So how would YOU put together an objective test? It's easy to snipe, but it's a lot more difficult to come up with constructive suggestions (and I'm sure that Ty would probably appreciate any constructive suggestions). Testing sims is a lot like testing cars in real life, I would imagine -- a LOT of it comes down to opinion. Still, how WOULD you put together an objective test with only a single tester? Ty's test would be more objective if there were various testers' viewpoints, but short of that, how DOES a single tester do an objective comparison? Lap times and acceleration is irrelevant due to the lack of instrumentation and commonly-shared tracks, so where would one start? -- JB Aubrey wrote in message ...

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>He's testing how closely various sims match his preconcieved ideas about >what makes a realistic sim. Might be useful info for someone who's own >opinions happen to match his, but for anyone else its completely pointless. >It's not an objective test at all. > >-A > >John Bodin <[email hidden]> wrote in message >news:hUFW4.607$[email hidden]... >> Ty Brewer over at Games Domain did an interesting article titled "Driving >> Test," where he puts several sims/games through their paces to try to >> duplicate real-world driving responses. The result? NFSPU came out on

top!

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>> Check out the review: >> >> http://www.gamesdomain.co.uk/gdr.cgi?depart/may00/driving.html >> >> This just reaffirms my belief that it doesn't have to be overly-difficult >to >> be realistic, and just because it's realistic doesn't mean that it can't >be >> fun. >> >> >> -- JB >> >> >> >> >> > >

With regards to the issue of understeer in Viper Racing, I believe Ty indicated that there was virtually NO low-speed understeer in the Viper, but at speed it was okay. It was the lack thereof in the low-speed range that earned Viper Racing the lower score, I believe. -- JB ymenard wrote in message ... >"John Bodin" <[email hidden]> wrote >> Ty Brewer over at Games Domain did an interesting article titled "Driving >> Test," where he puts several sims/games through their paces to try to >> duplicate real-world driving responses. The result? NFSPU came out ontop! >> Check out the review: > > >Even if I find his review quite original, I sense an unusual amount of >questionnable thinking in his article. Technically, he thinks that those >stunts can all be done easily with all types of car. I feel that thestunts

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>in NFS:PU are a little tad over-modeled, while the writer thinks it's >realistic and gives low marks to any other games that doesn't do the stunts >as easy as NFS:PU. > >Viper should have a 5 in the "stunts" departement. I do expect an almost >complete lost of momentum if I try to do a 360 with such car! Low scores >for under-steering in Viper? Darn, he must have some obvious car handling >problems, since you understeer all the time with them beasts imho (well

more

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>of a "oversteering that push you on the outside lane"). He also made no >mention of the incredibly poor wheel spin in Rally Championship on any kind >of 4WD car. > > >Still, kudos to EA for blending the sim and arcade features to please >everybody. Let's hope that Nascar Heat will also achieve that level of >blending. > > > >-- >-- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> >-- May the Downforce be with you... >-- http://www.WeRace.net >-- People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise >how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world. > > >

Yeah, this is one point where I totally disagreed with Ty -- SCGT pretty much left me cold after the shine wore off. I'd personally rate Viper Racing far ahead of SCGT. -- JB Darren Duncan wrote in message <8gffjd$hj9$[email hidden]>...

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>That's a bit misleading John. Actually 2 sims came top with an equal score; >Sports Car GT and NFS:PU. > >Note for others - GPL and F1 2000 were not tested as the tester wanted to >only compare road cars. > >Darren > > >"John Bodin" <[email hidden]> wrote in message >news:hUFW4.607$[email hidden]... >> Ty Brewer over at Games Domain did an interesting article titled "Driving >> Test," where he puts several sims/games through their paces to try to >> duplicate real-world driving responses. The result? NFSPU came out on

top!

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>> Check out the review: >> >> http://www.gamesdomain.co.uk/gdr.cgi?depart/may00/driving.html >> >> This just reaffirms my belief that it doesn't have to be overly-difficult >to >> be realistic, and just because it's realistic doesn't mean that it can't >be >> fun. > > >

When you say 360, you mean just standing on it and watching the car go around, right? Or do you mean just losing it in a turn? Latter is real easy in pre-996 911s - just lift your right foot =) -- Kirk Lane [email hidden] ICQ: 28171652 AIM: Kirker64 (IM me twice so I can reply...using a beta client) "The time has come for me to kill this game Now open wide and say my name" - "Space Lord", Monster Magnet Tim O. <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > > I like Porsche Unleashed a lot, but I'd still give the nod to Viper. > He didn't mention anything about the silly damage model, which kills > about 75% of the sim-ness in Porsche Unleashed. > I don't think it's arguable that damage should be excluded from the > damage model, since he's comparing things like donuts. > > I've tried some goofy real life stunts in a Jeep off road. I can > actually do the Porsche Unleashed stunt of driving backwards, brake > hard, spin, go forward. > It's not easy to do, and never happens the same way twice -that's why > they do it on wet streets for TV shows. A low traction surface makes > the car slide better and behave more consistently than the "slip and > grab" of dry pavement. > > What he says about Viper doing a 360 sounds much closer to reality > than his description of the same stunt in Porsche Unleashed. > > He said 180's and 360's were easy in Porsche Unleashed, then gave it > the nod by 2 points. There is no way its easy to do 360's on dry > street in a Porsche with huge 17" tires. > > Tim > > On Tue, 23 May 2000 19:57:31 -0500, "John Bodin" > <[email hidden]> wrote: > > >Ty Brewer over at Games Domain did an interesting article titled "Driving > >Test," where he puts several sims/games through their paces to try to > >duplicate real-world driving responses. The result? NFSPU came out on top! > >Check out the review: > > > >http://www.gamesdomain.co.uk/gdr.cgi?depart/may00/driving.html > > > >This just reaffirms my belief that it doesn't have to be overly-difficult to > >be realistic, and just because it's realistic doesn't mean that it can't be > >fun. > > > > > >-- JB > > > > > > > > >

On Wed, 24 May 2000 07:26:35 -0500 John Bodin <[email hidden]> wrote: % So how would YOU put together an objective test? It's easy to snipe, but % it's a lot more difficult to come up with constructive suggestions (and I'm % sure that Ty would probably appreciate any constructive suggestions). I would take a "real" car out to a skid pad and then attempt to match the results with a simulation that modeled the same car. <snip> -- **************************** Michael E. Carver ************************* Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town. [email hidden] http://www.teleport.com/~mcarver =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./. [- < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

John Bodin <[email hidden]> schrieb in im Newsbeitrag: B%PW4.619$[email hidden]... > With regards to the issue of understeer in Viper Racing, I believe Ty > indicated that there was virtually NO low-speed understeer in the Viper,but > at speed it was okay. It was the lack thereof in the low-speed range that > earned Viper Racing the lower score, I believe. > > -- JB > Maybe I'm missing something here, but I don't understand why a car that is perfectly built for real fast speed like a Viper should have any understeering problems at low speed (Not even my car has them at low speeds). What am I missing? What makes the article suspicious to me is that the auther claims to not have been able to do do-nuts during acceleration... IIRC that was the only thing I did well when I started to play Viper Racing... Could he have used some driving aids? CU Zolli

In article <[email hidden]>, Tim O. <[email hidden]> wrote:

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> On Fri, 26 May 2000 15:44:26 GMT, [email hidden] wrote: > > >Re-read the review, Tim -- Ty said: > > > >"The 360-degree turn works only when speed is on your side. You may > >need to reach 100mph to do this." > > > >If Danny Sullivan could do his "spin and win" at Indy in '85 in an

Indy > >car doing something in the neighborhood of 200 mph, I would guessthat

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> >a real Porsche could do the same on 17" tires at about 100 mph, as Ty > >indicated is required in NFSPU. > > C'mon John... Do you really think there is ANYTHING in a street car > that you can compare to an Indycar? > At 100mph, then kicked sideways, any street car is as likely to hook > and roll as it is to slide. > > We're arguing semantics here. I don't thing Ty's methodology for > testing is accurate. I have no way to substantiate my claims, nor does > he. > > Tim

Tim, There are semantics involved here, but I didn't think we were really arguing -- just "discussing" the detail. <G> I didn't really mean to compare a Porsche (or ANY street car) to an Indy car (either the CART or IRL type), and I do agree that when attempting such a 360 spin in a street car, a hook-and-roll is as likely as a well-executed spin. My point was that spins ARE possible in street cars, even in more mighty vehicles than Porsches; the Sullivan Indy example was just one, and I'm sure that as race fans we've all seen various GT racers spin at many different portions of the speed/performance envelope. The type of 360s that Ty is referring to attempting in NFSPU and Viper are the type of "stunt" driving antics performed by Hollywood special effects stunt drivers for television, movies, and commercials, and although they are difficult to execute without damaging self and vehicle, they ARE do-able. In NFSPU, it is RELATIVELY easy to do this type of 360 stunt in various vehicles, but it's NOT simple -- if you've done the factory driver mode, then it probably took you several attempts to master this. If it didn't take you several attempts, then I bow down to you, because I worked for several hours before I was able to get the technique down pat. This type of thing CAN be done in a motorized vehicle, and it can be done in NFSPU, but it's virtually impossible to execute such a maneuver in Viper Racing (for me, anyway -- I tried unsuccessfully for about an hour last night before I gave up, but I did end up breaking my own personal best at Sunset Mesa, which was a nice surprise since I did it my first lap out, and I haven't been playing Viper Racing much at all for the past 5 months or so <G>). So, anyway, my intention here wasn't to argue the semantics, but to discuss the fine points, so please don't feel put-upon by my earlier response. -- JB Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy.

On Fri, 26 May 2000 15:44:26 GMT, [email hidden] wrote:

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>Re-read the review, Tim -- Ty said: > >"The 360-degree turn works only when speed is on your side. You may >need to reach 100mph to do this." > >If Danny Sullivan could do his "spin and win" at Indy in '85 in an Indy >car doing something in the neighborhood of 200 mph, I would guess that >a real Porsche could do the same on 17" tires at about 100 mph, as Ty >indicated is required in NFSPU.

C'mon John... Do you really think there is ANYTHING in a street car that you can compare to an Indycar? At 100mph, then kicked sideways, any street car is as likely to hook and roll as it is to slide. We're arguing semantics here. I don't thing Ty's methodology for testing is accurate. I have no way to substantiate my claims, nor does he. Tim

In article <8ghqh1$8pp$[email hidden]>, "Zolli" <[email hidden]> wrote: > > John Bodin <[email hidden]> schrieb in im Newsbeitrag: > B%PW4.619$[email hidden]... > > With regards to the issue of understeer in Viper Racing, I believeTy > > indicated that there was virtually NO low-speed understeer in theViper, > but > > at speed it was okay. It was the lack thereof in the low-speedrange that > > earned Viper Racing the lower score, I believe. > > > > -- JB > > > > Maybe I'm missing something here, but I don't understand why a carthat is > perfectly built for real fast speed like a Viper should have any > understeering problems at low speed (Not even my car has them at low > speeds). What am I missing? > > What makes the article suspicious to me is that the auther claims tonot > have been able to do do-nuts during acceleration... IIRC that was theonly > thing I did well when I started to play Viper Racing... Could he haveused > some driving aids? > > CU > Zolli TY was NOT referring to the ability to do donuts while accelerating -- ANYBODY can do donuts in Viper Racing. He was testing to see if you could do a 360-degree snap-turn while moving forward. Think "Hollywood movie stunt," and you might get the idea. It involves accelerating up to speed, then snapping the car into a spin, and coming out facing the right direction and continuing on, much like Danny Sullivan did at the Indy 500 in '85, when he won the race (the difference being that Sullivan's "spin and win" was an accident, and a planned 360 at speed is an actual stunt). -- JB Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy.

You need a handbrake to do a STUNT like a 360-degree turn at speed (the test was referring to Hollywood stunt-type moving 360s, NOT simple donuts). With no handbrake, there's virtually NO way to even attempt a 360 at speed, so it's not a fetish, it's just something that seems to be required for this type of stunt. -- JB In article <[email hidden]>, Alan Orton <[email hidden]> wrote: > I read the review. I know everyone has a right to their own opinionsbut > I didn't agree with the test. There is just more to it then doingdonuts > and 180's to make a realistic handling sim. What about thresholdbraking

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> ,slip angles, realistic shifting, accurate braking distances,ect.. > If the game powerslide was based on a Dodge Viper I think he would of > rated it pretty good because it's easy to spin. > BTW, what's with the handbrake fetish? > But like I said everyone has their own opinion. > > Tim O. wrote: > > > > I like Porsche Unleashed a lot, but I'd still give the nod to Viper. > > He didn't mention anything about the silly damage model, which kills > > about 75% of the sim-ness in Porsche Unleashed. > > I don't think it's arguable that damage should be excluded from the > > damage model, since he's comparing things like donuts. > > > > I've tried some goofy real life stunts in a Jeep off road. I can > > actually do the Porsche Unleashed stunt of driving backwards, brake > > hard, spin, go forward. > > It's not easy to do, and never happens the same way twice -that's

why

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> > they do it on wet streets for TV shows. A low traction surface makes > > the car slide better and behave more consistently than the "slip and > > grab" of dry pavement. > > > > What he says about Viper doing a 360 sounds much closer to reality > > than his description of the same stunt in Porsche Unleashed. > > > > He said 180's and 360's were easy in Porsche Unleashed, then gave it > > the nod by 2 points. There is no way its easy to do 360's on dry > > street in a Porsche with huge 17" tires. > > > > Tim > > > > On Tue, 23 May 2000 19:57:31 -0500, "John Bodin" > > <[email hidden]> wrote: > > > > >Ty Brewer over at Games Domain did an interesting article titled

"Driving > > >Test," where he puts several sims/games through their paces to tryto > > >duplicate real-world driving responses. The result? NFSPU came outon top! > > >Check out the review: > > > > > >http://www.gamesdomain.co.uk/gdr.cgi?depart/may00/driving.html > > > > > >This just reaffirms my belief that it doesn't have to be overly-difficult to > > >be realistic, and just because it's realistic doesn't mean that itcan't be

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> > >fun. > > > > > > > > >-- JB > > > > > > > > > > > > >

Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy.

In article <[email hidden]>, Tim O. <[email hidden]> wrote: <LIBERAL SNIP> > He said 180's and 360's were easy in Porsche Unleashed, then gave it > the nod by 2 points. There is no way its easy to do 360's on dry > street in a Porsche with huge 17" tires. Re-read the review, Tim -- Ty said: "The 360-degree turn works only when speed is on your side. You may need to reach 100mph to do this." If Danny Sullivan could do his "spin and win" at Indy in '85 in an Indy car doing something in the neighborhood of 200 mph, I would guess that a real Porsche could do the same on 17" tires at about 100 mph, as Ty indicated is required in NFSPU. -- JB Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy.

<LIBERAL SNIP> Re-read the review, Tim -- Ty said: "The 360-degree turn works only when speed is on your side. You may need to reach 100mph to do this." If Danny Sullivan could do his "spin and win" at Indy in '85 in an Indy car doing something in the neighborhood of 200 mph, I would guess that a real Porsche could do the same on 17" tires at about 100 mph, as Ty indicated is required in NFSPU. -- JB Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy.

On Fri, 26 May 2000 20:58:24 GMT, [email hidden] wrote: >So, anyway, my intention here wasn't to argue the semantics, but to >discuss the fine points, so please don't feel put-upon by my earlier >response. Not at all, John. I just think we're at a stalemate of perspectives here. I'll try to refine my point, but this is blabby... I think that the root of my problem lies with the fundamental methodology of Ty's test. He based his decisions on things that are fringe things in reality. Lets try to parallel this to that fringe reality... My dad had a 72 Plymouth Scamp (same as a Dart) with a 318 that would do the best donuts of any car I have ever been it. As a young idiot in the mid-80's, I put the car through such fringe tests. Aside from excelling at donuts, it did great on the Running Over Snowman test, and the 60mph over speed-bump test. If you're a real glutton for punishment, I'll give you full exploits via e-mail. The car was abysmal at cornering, and accellerated slower than a school bus. If I were to use Ty's donut test, the Scamp would be one of the great cars on the road. I was stupid, but not stupid enough to try 360's on the highway, but I think you can understand what I'm saying. Back to games... I know a true physics model with simulate everything exactly, but the thing that I think really matters in a sim is how the car reacts in a turn under braking or acceleration. Ty is taking things out on a cars performance fringes, and using it to compare which game has the most realistic handling. At first glance, this seems like a good idea. Push the sim to the corner of it's envelope, and see how it reacts. The problem is that while Porsche Unleashed is realistic enough to be lots of fun, Viper feels so much more "right" to me everywhere inside the envelope. I have all the sims that Ty tested, and I'll try to start with a fresh mind and analyze them all again (if I can pry myself away from Motocross Madness 2!). Tim