Re: How to make GPL really difficult!

Kevin Gavitt <[email hidden]> schrieb in im Newsbeitrag: 4hyX4.1826$[email hidden]... Hi! > I always trailbrake on the street. The car is much more stable that way, > since you arn't on the limit. It really helps the car "set" into the corner. > At the very least I always at least lift, for the same reason, even for > corners that don't require slowing down. It seems that we're talking about two different techniques here. How do you define traibraking? For me, trailbraking means turning into the corner while still being on the brake and (now it comes!), always being on the edge of the traction circle, that is, the more I turn in and need lateral traction, the less I brake. What you probably mean is to brake while turning in, but not at the edge of traction. Thats quite "normal" driving - almost everyone I know who plays GPL has adapted this driving style from the computer to the car because, and there you're right, it makes driving safer. I also do it most of the time - but only if the streets are empty and there is no cop in sight I do the "real" thing ;))) (oh yes, we have some nice twitchy roads down here in Bavaria). Regards Crash -- http://www.crashmania.de http://www.joachimblum.de (under construction) "Alle Menschen werden als Original geboren, doch die meisten sterben als Kopie." "Being hit by a meteorite is an accident - everything else is a driver's fault."

Olav K. Malmin <[email hidden]> schrieb in im Newsbeitrag: [email hidden]... Hi! > What really puzzled me is the new tendencies to build a joystick into > the cars instead of pedals and wheels. Seems like a good idea, but > think about when you first bought a wheel and went "Whooaa, I can do > stuff now that was useless with joystick". Trailbraking is coming to mind. Yeah, but how often do you trailbrake with your car when you're driving to work? ;)) Regards Crash -- http://www.crashmania.de http://www.joachimblum.de (under construction) "Alle Menschen werden als Original geboren, doch die meisten sterben als Kopie." "Being hit by a meteorite is an accident - everything else is a driver's fault."

My friends and I organised a party one weekend. We rented a giant bouncy boxing ring (with huge foam gloves) and a bicycle that had the handlebars reversed. Turn the handlebars left and you go right. That thing was an absolute hoot. It was even funnier when everyone was drunk =) Cheers ...Colin Trevor Pavitt <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:8glkep$c0q$[email hidden]... > The other day I accidentally set up my wheel incorrectly - throttle,brakes

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> and gears were OK but the steering was reversed i.e. right-hand lock > produced left turn! Now that makes things *really* difficult - I wonder > whether it is possible to complete a lap with this setup? > By the bye, when I was in the army there was reputed to be a training > vehicle rigged this way - sounds unlikely but then a lot of things that > happened in the army *sounded* unlikely :o) > > Cheers, > -- > Trevor > Nb Lady Elgar - Grand Union Canal > >

Our boat underwent repairs over a week's time. When we got it back, they told us they test-drove it and everything was fine. We put it in the water, and lo and behold! The steering was backwards! Driving a boat at 50-60 mph this way was VERY strange! Todd Wasson

The other day I accidentally set up my wheel incorrectly - throttle, brakes and gears were OK but the steering was reversed i.e. right-hand lock produced left turn! Now that makes things *really* difficult - I wonder whether it is possible to complete a lap with this setup? By the bye, when I was in the army there was reputed to be a training vehicle rigged this way - sounds unlikely but then a lot of things that happened in the army *sounded* unlikely :o) Cheers, -- Trevor Nb Lady Elgar - Grand Union Canal

"Trevor Pavitt" <[email hidden]> writes:

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> The other day I accidentally set up my wheel incorrectly - throttle, brakes > and gears were OK but the steering was reversed i.e. right-hand lock > produced left turn! Now that makes things *really* difficult - I wonder > whether it is possible to complete a lap with this setup? > By the bye, when I was in the army there was reputed to be a training > vehicle rigged this way - sounds unlikely but then a lot of things that > happened in the army *sounded* unlikely :o)

In the army there was always a explaination of something that at fist was very unlikely. As a kid I once build a Lego truck, with the steering going to wrong way. Young aspiring engeneers do get a bit creative with the mechanics sometimes :) What really puzzled me is the new tendencies to build a joystick into the cars instead of pedals and wheels. Seems like a good idea, but think about when you first bought a wheel and went "Whooaa, I can do stuff now that was useless with joystick". Trailbraking is coming to mind. -- Olav K. Malmin remove spam when replying

Joachim Blum wrote:

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> > Olav K. Malmin <[email hidden]> schrieb in im Newsbeitrag: [email hidden]... > > Hi! > > > What really puzzled me is the new tendencies to build a joystick into > > the cars instead of pedals and wheels. Seems like a good idea, but > > think about when you first bought a wheel and went "Whooaa, I can do > > stuff now that was useless with joystick". Trailbraking is coming to mind. > > Yeah, but how often do you trailbrake with your car when you're driving to work? ;)) > > Regards > Crash

Not to mention that it is a DBW (drive-by-wire) system that will trail brake better than you could unless your last name is Schumacher :). -Gregor

"Joachim Blum" <[email hidden]> writes:

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> Olav K. Malmin <[email hidden]> schrieb in im Newsbeitrag: [email hidden]... > > Hi! > > > What really puzzled me is the new tendencies to build a joystick into > > the cars instead of pedals and wheels. Seems like a good idea, but > > think about when you first bought a wheel and went "Whooaa, I can do > > stuff now that was useless with joystick". Trailbraking is coming to mind. > > Yeah, but how often do you trailbrake with your car when you're driving to work? ;))

Not exactly trailbraking, but in -20 degrees celsius, it is often neccesary to press the throttle when braking, heel-and-toe., to keep the car running :) But it is pretty scary, specially on the open highway, when I'm braking late and into the corner, use racelines (on my own lane of couse) and so on. -- Olav K. Malmin remove spam when replying

Gregor Veble <[email hidden]> writes:

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> Joachim Blum wrote: > > > > Olav K. Malmin <[email hidden]> schrieb in im Newsbeitrag: [email hidden]... > > > > Hi! > > > > > What really puzzled me is the new tendencies to build a joystick into > > > the cars instead of pedals and wheels. Seems like a good idea, but > > > think about when you first bought a wheel and went "Whooaa, I can do > > > stuff now that was useless with joystick". Trailbraking is coming to mind. > > > > Yeah, but how often do you trailbrake with your car when you're driving to work? ;)) > > > > Regards > > Crash > > Not to mention that it is a DBW (drive-by-wire) system that will trail > brake better than you could unless your last name is Schumacher :). >

I admit it, the trailbrake example was not the best one. I just don't like the idea of limiting my options while driving a car which is lethal when used wrong. -- Olav K. Malmin remove spam when replying

"Olav K. Malmin" wrote:

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> > I admit it, the trailbrake example was not the best one. I just don't > like the idea of limiting my options while driving a car which is > lethal when used wrong. > > -- > Olav K. Malmin > remove spam when replying

I can agree with you since you are probably a better than an average driver, but, believe me when I say I am happy that such systems are introduced simply because the majority of drivers have far worse capabilities to control the car in extreme situations than do the computers that help interpret the inputs. Driving will on average be safer for it. Heck, even I'd be happy with a stability programme when it's snowing and I am already tired from nursing the car. -Gregor

Joachim Blum wrote:

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> > Olav K. Malmin <[email hidden]> schrieb in im Newsbeitrag: [email hidden]... > > Hi! > > > What really puzzled me is the new tendencies to build a joystick into > > the cars instead of pedals and wheels. Seems like a good idea, but > > think about when you first bought a wheel and went "Whooaa, I can do > > stuff now that was useless with joystick". Trailbraking is coming to mind. > > Yeah, but how often do you trailbrake with your car when you're driving to work? ;))

You've obviously never seen me drive :-) Seriously though, I drive my car all time as if I was racing, except for the speeds of course, lots of stuff you do when you drive your car at maximum speed at a race track can be used to drive more safely on the road, left foot braking springs to mind, and I always try to hit the apex of a corner just right, even though I use only one lane and all that stuff, I believe it makes me a safer driver, not to mention that these things become more instinctively and I can do them better on those occasions where I get to drive on a track...so Joystick ? Bah !!! :-) Beers and cheers (uncle) Goy "Team Mirage" http://www.teammirage.com/ "The Pits" http://www.theuspits.com/ * Spam is for losers who can't get business any other way * "Spamkiller" http://www.spamkiller.com

Trevor Pavitt wrote:

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> > The other day I accidentally set up my wheel incorrectly - throttle, brakes > and gears were OK but the steering was reversed i.e. right-hand lock > produced left turn! Now that makes things *really* difficult - I wonder > whether it is possible to complete a lap with this setup? > By the bye, when I was in the army there was reputed to be a training > vehicle rigged this way - sounds unlikely but then a lot of things that > happened in the army *sounded* unlikely :o)

I have no need to make GPL more difficult :- Beers and cheers (uncle) Goy "Team Mirage" http://www.teammirage.com/ "The Pits" http://www.theuspits.com/ * Spam is for losers who can't get business any other way * "Spamkiller" http://www.spamkiller.com

In article <[email hidden]>, Goy Larsen <[email hidden]> wrote: >Seriously though, I drive my car all time as if I was racing, except for >the speeds of course, lots of stuff you do when you drive your car at >maximum speed at a race track can be used to drive more safely on the >road, left foot braking springs to mind, and I always try to hit the >apex of a corner just right, even though I use only one lane and >all that stuff, I believe it makes me a safer driver, I hear you, but... Consider that on a normal road, as opposed to the track, you'll have a lot of crap (bottles, mufflers, glass, oil, water) collecting at the lowest point on the road, ie the apex. Ditto for where drivers usually aren't (right on the lane dividers). And, of course, lane dividers tend to be slicker. Also, by keeping yourself more centered, you have more breathing room from unexpected events such as mom/pop drifting over, a squirrel or deer bolting from the side of the road, etc. Motorcyclists try to give themselves this extra breathing room. Watch how they drive. So, IMHO, if you are using all the road, even just your lane, you are probably risking your tires, and yourself more than if you didn't. Basically, I expect that you are an alert driver if you are driving as you say, which is probably the biggest factor, a huge plus. But, OTOH, the real world just isn't designed for driving a car as if racing, or for using every bit of even just your lane. Not that this bit of advice is followed by its author at all times :-)

"Joachim Blum" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... Olav K. Malmin <[email hidden]> schrieb in im Newsbeitrag: [email hidden]... Hi! > What really puzzled me is the new tendencies to build a joystick into > the cars instead of pedals and wheels. Seems like a good idea, but > think about when you first bought a wheel and went "Whooaa, I can do > stuff now that was useless with joystick". Trailbraking is coming to mind. Yeah, but how often do you trailbrake with your car when you're driving to work? ;)) Regards Crash -- I always trailbrake on the street. The car is much more stable that way, since you arn't on the limit. It really helps the car "set" into the corner. At the very least I always at least lift, for the same reason, even for corners that don't require slowing down.

[email hidden] (Trevor Pavitt) wrote in <8glkep$c0q$[email hidden]>: >The other day I accidentally set up my wheel incorrectly - throttle, >brakes and gears were OK but the steering was reversed i.e. right >-hand lock produced left turn! Now that makes things *really* >difficult - I wonder whether it is possible to complete a lap with >this setup? The mind is amazingly adaptable, you could easily learn to drive like this. As a matter of fact that is how you steer a motorcycle, turn the bars left to go right. -- Don Scurlock Vancouver,B.C.

aaaaaaahhhh, there it is now my time at Monza is under 3 minutes :-) -=Ketil=- Trevor Pavitt <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:8glkep$c0q$[email hidden]... > The other day I accidentally set up my wheel incorrectly - throttle,brakes

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> and gears were OK but the steering was reversed i.e. right-hand lock > produced left turn! Now that makes things *really* difficult - I wonder > whether it is possible to complete a lap with this setup? > By the bye, when I was in the army there was reputed to be a training > vehicle rigged this way - sounds unlikely but then a lot of things that > happened in the army *sounded* unlikely :o) > > Cheers, > -- > Trevor > Nb Lady Elgar - Grand Union Canal > >

With automated airplanes (well, small ones ;), after you get all the stuff hooked up, you hang it from the ceiling and rotate it, hoping that all the moving parts respond in the correct directions. Seriously. - Matt "Olav K. Malmin" wrote: > "Trevor Pavitt" <[email hidden]> writes: > > > The other day I accidentally set up my wheel incorrectly - throttle, brakes > > and gears were OK but the steering was reversed i.e. right-hand lock > > produced left turn! Now that makes things *really* difficult - I wonder > > whether it is possible to complete a lap with this setup?

[email hidden] wrote:

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> > I hear you, but... > > Consider that on a normal road, as opposed to the track, you'll have a lot of > crap (bottles, mufflers, glass, oil, water) collecting at the lowest point on > the road, ie the apex. Ditto for where drivers usually aren't (right on the > lane dividers). And, of course, lane dividers tend to be slicker. Also, by > keeping yourself more centered, you have more breathing room from unexpected > events such as mom/pop drifting over, a squirrel or deer bolting from the side > of the road, etc. Motorcyclists try to give themselves this extra breathing > room. Watch how they drive. So, IMHO, if you are using all the road, even > just your lane, you are probably risking your tires, and yourself more than if > you didn't. > > Basically, I expect that you are an alert driver if you are driving as you > say, which is probably the biggest factor, a huge plus. But, OTOH, the real > world just isn't designed for driving a car as if racing, or for using every > bit of even just your lane. Not that this bit of advice is followed by its > author at all times :-)

If you want to split hairs :-)....... What is the safer driving, me bored to death and half asleep dead center in my lane (yes, I think I can do that even fully asleep after 18 years :-) or totally awake and alert using all of my lane ? And no, there's no way I could stay totally awake and alert driving normally, that is so incredibly boring I can't even find proper words to describe how I feel :-) Beers and cheers (uncle) Goy "Team Mirage" http://www.teammirage.com/ "The Pits" http://www.theuspits.com/ * Spam is for losers who can't get business any other way * "Spamkiller" http://www.spamkiller.com

Goy Larsen <[email hidden]> writes:

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> > If you want to split hairs :-)....... > > What is the safer driving, me bored to death and half asleep dead center > in my lane (yes, I think I can do that even fully asleep after 18 years > :-) or totally awake and alert using all of my lane ? > > And no, there's no way I could stay totally awake and alert driving > normally, that is so incredibly boring I can't even find proper words to > describe how I feel :-)

You're dead right. I've done my share of driving long stints between Trondheim, Oslo and Stavanger (6-8 hours), and it is always safer to focus on how you drive, and not just put the car on the road. Doing racelines is one of many tricks. It is also a faster way to drive withing the speed-limit. It has happend many times that I have been overtaken by mindless speeders on the straight, only to close the gap in the twisty parts of the road by just using that extra 50 cm's of road. And in Norway there are a lot of places where maintaining the speed limit are completely impossible. -- Olav K. Malmin remove spam when replying

"Olav K. Malmin" wrote:

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> > You're dead right. I've done my share of driving long stints between > Trondheim, Oslo and Stavanger (6-8 hours), and it is always safer to > focus on how you drive, and not just put the car on the road. Doing > racelines is one of many tricks. It is also a faster way to drive withing the > speed-limit. It has happend many times that I have been overtaken by > mindless speeders on the straight, only to close the gap in the twisty > parts of the road by just using that extra 50 cm's of road. And in > Norway there are a lot of places where maintaining the speed limit are > completely impossible.

Here here, we should form some kind of organization to further our POV, maybe we could get some governmental backing or something :-) Beers and cheers (uncle) Goy "Team Mirage" http://www.teammirage.com/ "The Pits" http://www.theuspits.com/ * Spam is for losers who can't get business any other way * "Spamkiller" http://www.spamkiller.com

Goy Larsen <[email hidden]> writes:

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> "Olav K. Malmin" wrote: > > > > You're dead right. I've done my share of driving long stints between > > Trondheim, Oslo and Stavanger (6-8 hours), and it is always safer to > > focus on how you drive, and not just put the car on the road. Doing > > racelines is one of many tricks. It is also a faster way to drive withing the > > speed-limit. It has happend many times that I have been overtaken by > > mindless speeders on the straight, only to close the gap in the twisty > > parts of the road by just using that extra 50 cm's of road. And in > > Norway there are a lot of places where maintaining the speed limit are > > completely impossible. > > Here here, we should form some kind of organization to further our POV, > maybe we could get some governmental backing or something :-)

Hehe, that would have been something. Have to ask the traffic behaviour expert here at work (I work with traffic and transportation research, www.sintef.no/units/civil/transp) about this. -- Olav K. Malmin remove spam when replying

"Olav K. Malmin" wrote: > > Hehe, that would have been something. Have to ask the traffic > behaviour expert here at work (I work with traffic and transportation > research, www.sintef.no/units/civil/transp) about this. :-))) Beers and cheers (uncle) Goy "Team Mirage" http://www.teammirage.com/ "The Pits" http://www.theuspits.com/ * Spam is for losers who can't get business any other way * "Spamkiller" http://www.spamkiller.com

Don Scurlock <[email hidden]> wrote: > The mind is amazingly adaptable, you could easily learn to drive like > this. As a matter of fact that is how you steer a motorcycle, turn > the bars left to go right. > I accept what you say about the mind (or is it the brain?) being adaptable but I don't think I turn the bars left to go right on a motorcycle. Actually I am never aware of turning them at all - I just *lean*. Now on a canal boat, which normally has a tiller not a wheel, you certainly do push to the left to go right. Interestingly many women find this counter-intuitive - not that I wish to open that particular can of worms :o) Cheers, -- Trevor Nb Lady Elgar - Grand Union Canal UK

Trail-brake almost all the time, and wheel spin limit coming out. The problem is the slow guy in front of you that can't/won't hold a proper line, blowing your exit speed all to hell. The real question is how many of you transition from threshold braking to trail braking on the streets. There are few opportunities for that around here, and that's just as well. (Threshold braking on the street is just plain dumb. I'm far from conservative, but consider that to border on homicidal.) Michael. "Joachim Blum" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... Yeah, but how often do you trailbrake with your car when you're driving to work? ;))

[email hidden] (Trevor Pavitt) wrote in <8gov2g$1i4$[email hidden]>: >I accept what you say about the mind (or is it the brain?) being adaptable >but I don't think I turn the bars left to go right on a motorcycle. Actually >I am never aware of turning them at all - I just *lean*. It's called "counter steering", and I guarantee your doing it. Go to one of the motorcycle newsgroups and ask "what's all this counter steering bullshit" and see what happens ;) >Now on a canal boat, which normally has a tiller not a wheel, you certainly >do push to the left to go right. Interestingly many women find this >counter-intuitive - not that I wish to open that particular can of worms :o) You just did. Better duck. -- Don Scurlock Vancouver,B.C.

Trev, Try turning your monitor upside down. Frank On Fri, 26 May 2000 11:23:46 +0100, "Trevor Pavitt" <[email hidden]> wrote:

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>The other day I accidentally set up my wheel incorrectly - throttle, brakes >and gears were OK but the steering was reversed i.e. right-hand lock >produced left turn! Now that makes things *really* difficult - I wonder >whether it is possible to complete a lap with this setup? >By the bye, when I was in the army there was reputed to be a training >vehicle rigged this way - sounds unlikely but then a lot of things that >happened in the army *sounded* unlikely :o) > >Cheers,

Francois Dubuc, [email hidden] Simulator Cyberworld, http://www.simracing.com/simcyberworld/

Goy Larsen <[email hidden]> writes:

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> "Olav K. Malmin" wrote: > > > > You're dead right. I've done my share of driving long stints between > > Trondheim, Oslo and Stavanger (6-8 hours), and it is always safer to > > focus on how you drive, and not just put the car on the road. Doing > > racelines is one of many tricks. It is also a faster way to drive withing the > > speed-limit. It has happend many times that I have been overtaken by > > mindless speeders on the straight, only to close the gap in the twisty > > parts of the road by just using that extra 50 cm's of road. And in > > Norway there are a lot of places where maintaining the speed limit are > > completely impossible. > > Here here, we should form some kind of organization to further our POV, > maybe we could get some governmental backing or something :-)

Well, I just talked to a traffic behaviour psychologist (sp?) about this, and he said he also drove ideal lines on the road, and it was a very good idea to drive active to prevent getting tired. He also said that the driving schools also teach ideal line driving on the countryside roads. But of course, watch out in the left turn for oncoming traffic in the middle of the road. -- Olav K. Malmin remove spam when replying

"Olav K. Malmin" wrote:

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> > Well, I just talked to a traffic behaviour psychologist (sp?) about > this, and he said he also drove ideal lines on the road, and it was a > very good idea to drive active to prevent getting tired. He also said > that the driving schools also teach ideal line driving on the > countryside roads. But of course, watch out in the left turn for > oncoming traffic in the middle of the road.

So, basically, we were right then ? :-) Beers and cheers (uncle) Goy "Team Mirage" http://www.teammirage.com/ "The Pits" http://www.theuspits.com/ * Spam is for losers who can't get business any other way * "Spamkiller" http://www.spamkiller.com

Goy Larsen <[email hidden]> writes:

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> "Olav K. Malmin" wrote: > > > > Well, I just talked to a traffic behaviour psychologist (sp?) about > > this, and he said he also drove ideal lines on the road, and it was a > > very good idea to drive active to prevent getting tired. He also said > > that the driving schools also teach ideal line driving on the > > countryside roads. But of course, watch out in the left turn for > > oncoming traffic in the middle of the road. > > So, basically, we were right then ? :-)

Yeah, both right and incredibly smart :) -- Olav K. Malmin remove spam when replying

In article <8gov2g$1i4$[email hidden]>, Trevor Pavitt <[email hidden]> writes >I accept what you say about the mind (or is it the brain?) being adaptable >but I don't think I turn the bars left to go right on a motorcycle. Actually >I am never aware of turning them at all - I just *lean*. The steering system that always confuses me is pedals on a plane. My earliest "driving" experience was racing down a hill near my house on a home-made cart with roller-skate wheels (a full roller-skate on each corner -- the Tyrrell 6-wheeler had nothing on us!). We soon found that the traditional "loop of string" method of steering a front axle wasn't very accurate, so instead we steered with our feet directly on the axle. It was a steep hill, with a sharp bend at the bottom, and even though there wasn't any power or brakes, I knew how to drift around a corner by about the age of 10 (using body weight to get the balance right). But it is now hard-wired into my brain that in order to turn right, I push with my left foot... which doesn't work very well in a plane! >Now on a canal boat, which normally has a tiller not a wheel, you certainly >do push to the left to go right. Interestingly many women find this >counter-intuitive - not that I wish to open that particular can of worms :o) Yes, that could get you into hot water. Or, in my case, into very cold water: dinghy sailing in the Forth is my sport, with my wife crewing :-) Some other nonsense related to this thread: - There is a chap that does the rounds of various fairgrounds in Dorset who has a bicycle with the steering reversed and the direction of pedalling reversed. He lets other people try it... and of course they always fall straight off. - I once saw an army jeep with *full* dual controls (aircraft style). The owners used to take turns driving... but without having to stop to change over. I'm not aware of them ever having been stopped by the police, but it could be interesting if they both claimed not to be driving! -- Russell Whitworth - If you need my email address, you'll have to visit my website (sorry) - - Home ==> http://www.anchorag.demon.co.uk/ - - Work ==> http://www.questus.co.uk/ -

"Olav K. Malmin" wrote:

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> > Goy Larsen <[email hidden]> writes: > > > "Olav K. Malmin" wrote: > > > > > > Well, I just talked to a traffic behaviour psychologist (sp?) about > > > this, and he said he also drove ideal lines on the road, and it was a > > > very good idea to drive active to prevent getting tired. He also said > > > that the driving schools also teach ideal line driving on the > > > countryside roads. But of course, watch out in the left turn for > > > oncoming traffic in the middle of the road. > > > > So, basically, we were right then ? :-) > > Yeah, both right and incredibly smart :)

I knew that :-) Beers and cheers (uncle) Goy "Team Mirage" http://www.teammirage.com/ "The Pits" http://www.theuspits.com/ * Spam is for losers who can't get business any other way * "Spamkiller" http://www.spamkiller.com