OT: Excellent! (Indy500 Spoiler)

Very impressive run by Montoya. Although, he was only up against competition 70-75% of the level he's used to in CART... -- Rob Swindells [Rob Swindells Racing] http://swindells.8m.com "Add life to your days, not days to your life." "The greatest substitute for talent is hard work." "Doing it, is better than watching it, is better than simulating it." "I may not be perfect, but parts of me are excellent."

<[email hidden]> wrote in message news:8gts23$1ele$[email hidden]... > In article <zRkY4.2695$[email hidden]>, "Greg Cisko"<[email hidden]> wrote: > >John Bodin <[email hidden]> wrote in message > >news:hakY4.741$[email hidden]... > >> There will never be any hope of merging the 2 leagues as long asdivisive

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> >> opinions like these continue to fuel the split and drive the wedge even > >> deeper. > > > >Devisive opinions like what? Clearly the IRL is the minor league of > >openwheel racing in america. It isn't really an opinion. > > C'mon Greg, by definition, it is an opinion ... One I happen to share :-) > > To me, it's all rather sad. They (TG, IRL, media, advertisers, teams > that compete there) continue to put on the facade of this still being the > greatest race in not only the US, but the entire world. [aside: Hmmm, any > F1'rs going along with that?]. It is human nature to hold on to

tradition, > long after anything remains but the memories. F1'rs continue to act thatway > about Monaco, when it is a (*opinion*) anachronism of a race that, historyand > tradition aside, isn't much of a race today. Anyway, at least there, they > still have the same top level drivers as in the other races. ><snip> My sentiments exactly. I know it will never happen, but I'd like to see F1 drop the Monaco race (he says as he ducks for cover). I don't even like driving it in any of the sims . . . well maybe GPL a little, but there you go. Jerry Morelock

Just my $0.02. 1) I enjoy both CART and IRL. To me they are by far, DIFFERENT series. I don't even think of them in the same breath anymore. One is an oval series and one if road racing. 2) The problem with CART may be that the USA has never really embraced road racing. Oh, it has it's place, but I don't believe it can sustain a series. I believe that is why Formula One has had trouble establishing itself. 3) Each series has five or six TOPFLITE drivers, another five or six that can win on a good day and the rest are rookies, has-beens and journeymen. You will find this in most series. 4) Tony George is not an Ogre. Years ago he had the most prestigious event in motor racing. All he wanted was to have a vote in the way that racing did it's business. Yes, including a voice in the direction of american racing. CART let him join the board and then, in what may have been the worst decision they could have made, they told George he wouldn't be allowed to vote. George continued to try and be allowed a say in how racing went. CART, rather pompously and arrogantly, IMHO, said no. Tony George then said fine. I will do it all my way. The rest is history. 6) All in all I thought it was a terrific race! Buddy Lazier making a stirring run to the front. Montoya, turning it up a notch whenever he needed to. But in the end, winning the race in the pits, where his team gained 9 seconds in the last two stops. I enjoy all racing and just don't care if the two are split. I just want see good racing. Mike

Here's hoping that the Indy 500 returns to its former level of prestige in everyone's eyes... In the meantime, this year's 500 was as good a spectacle as any I've seen (USAC, CART, IRL), and I believe this Montoya/Gannassi vistuoso performance would have yielded a win on any field (today must be holiday in Colombia as well! ;-)) I may be overly naive/optimistic, but I've a feeling this is a very short-lived situation, and we'll see the two leagues merging in the near future (I hope!) L.S. "robswindells" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> Very impressive run by Montoya. Although, he was only up against > competition 70-75% of the level he's used to in CART... > > -- > Rob Swindells > [Rob Swindells Racing] http://swindells.8m.com > "Add life to your days, not days to your life." > "The greatest substitute for talent is hard work." > "Doing it, is better than watching it, is better than simulating it." > "I may not be perfect, but parts of me are excellent." > >

>The IRL is a second rate operation? That's just your opinion -- from what I >heard, Montoya and Ganassi would disagree with you, though.Only in public, I imagine. Secretly I bet they're laughing very hard that with minimal practice, they've breezed in and beat the Irrelevant Racing League at its own biggest race. >There were several IRL >drivers on the lead lapWhich isn't much of an achievement considering most of the field were "IRL Drivers" :-) >including Buddy Lazier, Eliseo Salazar, Jeff Ward, >and Eddie Cheever, who have all been described by various CART fans as >washed-up has-beens who couldn't make it in the "big leagues" of CART. The >fact that these IRL drivers were on the lead lap -- and that they all >managed to finish ahead of one Jimmy Vasser, Ganassi's other driver -- just >further validates the IRL formula.No it doesn't. What it proves is the opposite. They were happily winning in the IRL but then, just two CART stars come in and wipe the floor with them. Imagine what would happen if they were surrounded by an entire field of CART cars. They would indeed be nowhere in "The Big Leagues". It would have been at least a Ganassi 1-3 had it not been for Vasser's irregular fuel strategy, so the CART boys weren't far from cleaning up. -- Cheers! Graeme Nash

On Mon 29 May 2000 02:53:11am, John Bodin wrote: >There will never be any hope of merging the 2 leagues as long as >divisive opinions like these continue to fuel the split and drive >the wedge even deeper. Hear, hear. Though, to be blunt, as far as most Europeans are concerned there's only one "Indycar" series anyway - CART. -- David. "After all, a mere thousand yards - such a harmless little knoll, really." (Raymond Mays on Shelsley Walsh)

There will never be any hope of merging the 2 leagues as long as divisive opinions like these continue to fuel the split and drive the wedge even deeper. -- JB Greg Cisko wrote in message ...

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>robswindells <[email hidden]> wrote in message >news:[email hidden]... >> Very impressive run by Montoya. Although, he was only up against >> competition 70-75% of the level he's used to in CART... > >Yeah, but it was the most exciting indy in quite a while. It was >quite a bit of pressure for the Target team. "Yep we will show >up with your equipment and *STILL* kick your ass." Also, I >have no doubt that Montoya is head and shoulders above >zanardi. > >Hopefully this will cause some merging of the 2 leagues. > > >-- > >[email hidden] > > >> -- >> Rob Swindells >> [Rob Swindells Racing] http://swindells.8m.com >> "Add life to your days, not days to your life." >> "The greatest substitute for talent is hard work." >> "Doing it, is better than watching it, is better than simulating it." >> "I may not be perfect, but parts of me are excellent." >> >> > >

robswindells <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > Very impressive run by Montoya. Although, he was only up against > competition 70-75% of the level he's used to in CART... Yeah, but it was the most exciting indy in quite a while. It was quite a bit of pressure for the Target team. "Yep we will show up with your equipment and *STILL* kick your ass." Also, I have no doubt that Montoya is head and shoulders above zanardi. Hopefully this will cause some merging of the 2 leagues. -- [email hidden] > -- > Rob Swindells > [Rob Swindells Racing] http://swindells.8m.com > "Add life to your days, not days to your life." > "The greatest substitute for talent is hard work." > "Doing it, is better than watching it, is better than simulating it." > "I may not be perfect, but parts of me are excellent." > >

John Bodin <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:hakY4.741$[email hidden]... > There will never be any hope of merging the 2 leagues as long as divisive > opinions like these continue to fuel the split and drive the wedge even > deeper. Devisive opinions like what? Clearly the IRL is the minor league of openwheel racing in america. It isn't really an opinion. -- [email hidden] > -- JB > > Greg Cisko wrote in message ... > >robswindells <[email hidden]> wrote in message > >news:[email hidden]... > >> Very impressive run by Montoya. Although, he was only up against > >> competition 70-75% of the level he's used to in CART... > > > >Yeah, but it was the most exciting indy in quite a while. It was > >quite a bit of pressure for the Target team. "Yep we will show > >up with your equipment and *STILL* kick your ass." Also, I > >have no doubt that Montoya is head and shoulders above > >zanardi. > > > >Hopefully this will cause some merging of the 2 leagues. > > > > > >-- > > > >[email hidden] > > > > > >> -- > >> Rob Swindells > >> [Rob Swindells Racing] http://swindells.8m.com > >> "Add life to your days, not days to your life." > >> "The greatest substitute for talent is hard work." > >> "Doing it, is better than watching it, is better than simulating it." > >> "I may not be perfect, but parts of me are excellent." > >> > >> > > > > > >

John Bodin wrote: > > There will never be any hope of merging the 2 leagues as long as divisive > opinions like these continue to fuel the split and drive the wedge even > deeper. > > -- JB Thats right and as soon as TG (whose name I shall not speak) takes his divisive opinions and leaves...the real racers can get back to INDY! :> (sorry John, cheap shot but I couldn't resist)

What I find funny is the IRL is supposed to be an American League. Well why are guys Dare running or Slaizar and even Aire he also ran in the IRL. Well I think it was a thinly disquised way to Tony to try to make more money then just running one race. I think someone who wrote to Racer put it best when the IRL says it gives opportunity its the same opportunity it gave Sam Schmidt. Dave > John Bodin wrote: > > > > There will never be any hope of merging the 2 leagues as long asdivisive > > opinions like these continue to fuel the split and drive the wedge even > > deeper. > > > > -- JB

On Sun, 28 May 2000 20:53:11 -0500, "John Bodin" <[email hidden]> wrote: >There will never be any hope of merging the 2 leagues as long as divisive >opinions like these continue to fuel the split and drive the wedge even >deeper. Last I heard we were all entitled to hold opinions. I want the two groups to get back together because if they don't, both are doomed to disaster. But the message of this race is that, even after 6 years, IRL is a second-rate operation. Not an insult, just a fact. It's a real shame that the race which once was America's greatest race has been handed over to the minor league of open wheel racing. And Indy hasn't elevated the IRL, the IRL has diminished Indy...

The IRL is a second rate operation? That's just your opinion -- from what I heard, Montoya and Ganassi would disagree with you, though. Montoya and Ganassi showed the highest level of class and professionalism today and won on a completely level playing field. There were several IRL drivers on the lead lap, including Buddy Lazier, Eliseo Salazar, Jeff Ward, and Eddie Cheever, who have all been described by various CART fans as washed-up has-beens who couldn't make it in the "big leagues" of CART. The fact that these IRL drivers were on the lead lap -- and that they all managed to finish ahead of one Jimmy Vasser, Ganassi's other driver -- just further validates the IRL formula. Lazier seriously challenged Montoya at several points towards the end, but he couldn't sustain his charge. And, even though he couldn't wrestle the lead from Montoya, Lazier's efforts are still impressive when you consider that he overcame greater odds to finsh second than Juan did with his first-place finish -- Juan started on the front row in second place and finished first, moving up one position, while Buddy moved up from a 16th-place starting spot on Row 6 to finish second. Juan's performance was steller, but give Lazier his due, too (along with the rest of the IRL participants on the lead lap).. -- JB The Black Cat =^..^= wrote in message ...

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>On Sun, 28 May 2000 20:53:11 -0500, "John Bodin" ><[email hidden]> wrote: > >>There will never be any hope of merging the 2 leagues as long as divisive >>opinions like these continue to fuel the split and drive the wedge even >>deeper. > >Last I heard we were all entitled to hold opinions. I want the two >groups to get back together because if they don't, both are doomed to >disaster. But the message of this race is that, even after 6 years, >IRL is a second-rate operation. Not an insult, just a fact. It's a >real shame that the race which once was America's greatest race has >been handed over to the minor league of open wheel racing. And Indy >hasn't elevated the IRL, the IRL has diminished Indy...

Hehe This thing really makes me laugh. You will rarely hear a European bad mouthing F3 or F3000 <G> MS "Greg Cisko" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:zRkY4.2695$[email hidden]... > John Bodin <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:hakY4.741$[email hidden]... > > There will never be any hope of merging the 2 leagues as long asdivisive

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> > opinions like these continue to fuel the split and drive the wedge even > > deeper. > > Devisive opinions like what? Clearly the IRL is the minor league of > openwheel racing in america. It isn't really an opinion. > > > -- > > [email hidden] > > > > > -- JB > > > > Greg Cisko wrote in message ... > > >robswindells <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > >news:[email hidden]... > > >> Very impressive run by Montoya. Although, he was only up against > > >> competition 70-75% of the level he's used to in CART... > > > > > >Yeah, but it was the most exciting indy in quite a while. It was > > >quite a bit of pressure for the Target team. "Yep we will show > > >up with your equipment and *STILL* kick your ass." Also, I > > >have no doubt that Montoya is head and shoulders above > > >zanardi. > > > > > >Hopefully this will cause some merging of the 2 leagues. > > > > > > > > >-- > > > > > >[email hidden] > > > > > > > > >> -- > > >> Rob Swindells > > >> [Rob Swindells Racing] http://swindells.8m.com > > >> "Add life to your days, not days to your life." > > >> "The greatest substitute for talent is hard work." > > >> "Doing it, is better than watching it, is better than simulating it." > > >> "I may not be perfect, but parts of me are excellent." > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >

Nope... we take it all out on Bernie! ;-) Different camera angles for F3000 as to not rival the F1 coverage (and no in-car)... how lame is that? Jan. =--- m.seery wrote...

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> Hehe > > This thing really makes me laugh. You will rarely hear a European bad > mouthing F3 or F3000 <G> > > MS > <snip>

In article <zRkY4.2695$[email hidden]>, "Greg Cisko" <[email hidden]> wrote:

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>John Bodin <[email hidden]> wrote in message >news:hakY4.741$[email hidden]... >> There will never be any hope of merging the 2 leagues as long as divisive >> opinions like these continue to fuel the split and drive the wedge even >> deeper. > >Devisive opinions like what? Clearly the IRL is the minor league of >openwheel racing in america. It isn't really an opinion.

C'mon Greg, by definition, it is an opinion ... One I happen to share :-) To me, it's all rather sad. They (TG, IRL, media, advertisers, teams that compete there) continue to put on the facade of this still being the greatest race in not only the US, but the entire world. [aside: Hmmm, any F1'rs going along with that?]. It is human nature to hold on to tradition, long after anything remains but the memories. F1'rs continue to act that way about Monaco, when it is a (*opinion*) anachronism of a race that, history and tradition aside, isn't much of a race today. Anyway, at least there, they still have the same top level drivers as in the other races. Given IRL's and CART's relative media failings, compared to NASCAR and F1, it would seem to be to their best interest to combine, get over their childish attitudes, and save the Indy500 and their collective butts. Then again, and to be honest, I don't have the numbers. Perhaps both are doing well enough dollar-wise, to allow them to continue their selfish ways. Having said all that, having the Ganassi team there did a few things: It made for the most interesting Indy, and IRL, race since the split. It both showed CART superiority while perhaps contradictorily helping to legitimize IRL. It brought renewed interest back to a potentially dying tradition. And, as was apparent from interviews, these guys really do still hold Indy in a special place in their heart. So yeah, its turned into a second rate race, but it is still, for now, first in the hearts of many. But for how long? Another thing is obvious (though still an opinion :-)), we in the US aren't training drivers as well as the rest of the world. Drivers with no oval tradition come over from Europe, SA, everywhere and collectively kick our butts. To me, the answer isn't to come up with a "americans only" race series, but to let the best compete and work harder at training "our" own (if that is important).

John Bodin <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:SenY4.748$[email hidden]... > The IRL is a second rate operation? That's just your opinion -- from whatI > heard, Montoya and Ganassi would disagree with you, though. The fact that you would question, that IRL is a second rate operation show you don't know what you are talking about. Wow. -- [email hidden]

m.seery <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:LbqY4.2505$[email hidden]... > Hehe > > This thing really makes me laugh. You will rarely hear a European bad > mouthing F3 or F3000 <G> That is because F3 and F3000 are clearly the minor leagues of F1 racing and everyone involved will admit it. IRL will not admit they are the minor league of american openwheel racing. How can they when they race in the premier openwheel american race; the Indy 500? What Tony George did to run the CART teams off is dispicable. The reminds me of the Chicago Bears football operation in some ways. The real owner of the Indy track is Tony Georges mother. The real owner of the Chicago Bears is Michael McCaskey's mother. Michael McCaskey was screwing *EVERYTHING* up for so long that she finially had to fire her own son. I am sort of hoping the same thing could happen at Indy and George's mother would slap him around or something :-) -- [email hidden]

Not to belittle the talents of any of the participants, IMO the Indy 500 is no longer a the "greatest spectacle on earth". The winner can no longer say he went up against the best of the best of open-wheel oval racers. The finish seemed anti-climatic to me. Maybe it's just because I'm so used to seeing Juan on the podium in CART, but I think it's also because the field wasn't made up of the collective best of both the CART and IRL series.

> The IRL is a second rate operation? That's just your opinion -- from whatI > heard, Montoya and Ganassi would disagree with you, though. I don't think that the IRL is necessarily second-rate, it just isn't the premier open-wheel series in the U.S. > Montoya and Ganassi showed the highest level of class and professionalism > today and won on a completely level playing field. There were several IRL > drivers on the lead lap, including Buddy Lazier, Eliseo Salazar, JeffWard, > and Eddie Cheever, who have all been described by various CART fans as > washed-up has-beens who couldn't make it in the "big leagues" of CART. The > fact that these IRL drivers were on the lead lap -- and that they all > managed to finish ahead of one Jimmy Vasser, Ganassi's other driver --just > further validates the IRL formula. You aren't seriously arguing that, in order to invalidate the IRL, that Montoya and Vasser needed to lap the entire field?!? Good God, man, these guys had never driven IRL cars until a couple of weeks ago! Imagine putting the two best IRL drivers in a CART race at, say, Road America -- does anyone honestly think they would have any chance of winning? Keep in mind that Juan Montoya is 9th this year in CART and has not won a race, and Jimmy Vasser is 2nd (and I don't think he has won yet either). Sure, Juan was last year's champion (although he actually tied for 1st with Dario Franchitti), but he also had Mo Nunn as his engineer. Nunn was also the enginner for Zanardi, but has since formed his own CART team. No doubt that Juan is something special, but he has a long way to go if he is going to win the CART Championship this year. > Lazier seriously challenged Montoya at > several points towards the end, but he couldn't sustain his charge. And, > even though he couldn't wrestle the lead from Montoya, Lazier's effortsare > still impressive when you consider that he overcame greater odds to finsh > second than Juan did with his first-place finish -- Juan started on the > front row in second place and finished first, moving up one position,while > Buddy moved up from a 16th-place starting spot on Row 6 to finish second. > Juan's performance was steller, but give Lazier his due, too (along withthe > rest of the IRL participants on the lead lap).. I think Lazier is a good oval driver, and I think there are several other good drivers in the IRL, even a few who are good on road courses, too. On average though, there is a far greater overall skill level in CART. Let's face it, washed up CART drivers go to the IRL (Unser), but the best of the IRL have moved to CART or NASCAR (Brack, Stewart). In the end though, it doesn't matter much. In order for open-wheel racing to thrive in the U.S., there must be a reconciliation. Fortunately, there is only one obstacle to that becoming a reality. Unfortunately, his name is Tony George, and his ego won't let him do what is right. Jim Getzen

Greg I was only joking but one thing from your post springs to mind. > IRL will not admit > they are the minor league of american openwheel racing. How > can they when they race in the premier openwheel american > race; the Indy 500? The Indy 500 was dropped from CART for whatever political or practical reasons and IRL benifited from it. Just one question. Why by definition is the Indy 500 still considered the premier open wheeled race? Is it just because it's run at IMS and is a 500 mile race? If this is the case you might as well save the teams big bucks and run Formula Ford Chassis there. If it is not the case, what has IRL really got that stands out head and shoulders over all other series and shouts "This race is still the premier open wheeled race" Just a provocative thought <G>

Rubbish! The opinions of a small group of fans have not the slightest effect on the wheeling and dealings at corporate level! It's the big-wigs who control both organisations who have to get together and sort it out, not the spectators. -- Regards, Bruce Kennewell, Canberra, Australia. --------------------------- John Bodin <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:hakY4.741$[email hidden]... > There will never be any hope of merging the 2 leagues as long as divisive > opinions like these continue to fuel the split and drive the wedge even > deeper. > > -- JB > > Greg Cisko wrote in message ... > >robswindells <[email hidden]> wrote in message > >news:[email hidden]... > >> Very impressive run by Montoya. Although, he was only up against > >> competition 70-75% of the level he's used to in CART... > > > >Yeah, but it was the most exciting indy in quite a while. It was > >quite a bit of pressure for the Target team. "Yep we will show > >up with your equipment and *STILL* kick your ass." Also, I > >have no doubt that Montoya is head and shoulders above > >zanardi. > > > >Hopefully this will cause some merging of the 2 leagues. > > > > > >-- > > > >[email hidden] > > > > > >> -- > >> Rob Swindells > >> [Rob Swindells Racing] http://swindells.8m.com > >> "Add life to your days, not days to your life." > >> "The greatest substitute for talent is hard work." > >> "Doing it, is better than watching it, is better than simulating it." > >> "I may not be perfect, but parts of me are excellent." > >> > >> > > > > > >

Excellent observation, Mr. Cat. George was using the Indianapolis 500 as the lever back in '95 but what you've said is sadly true; the Indy 500 has lost it's status due to the birth of the IRL. -- Regards, Bruce Kennewell, Canberra, Australia. --------------------------- The Black Cat =^..^= <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > On Sun, 28 May 2000 20:53:11 -0500, "John Bodin" > <[email hidden]> wrote: > > >There will never be any hope of merging the 2 leagues as long as divisive > >opinions like these continue to fuel the split and drive the wedge even > >deeper. > > Last I heard we were all entitled to hold opinions. I want the two > groups to get back together because if they don't, both are doomed to > disaster. But the message of this race is that, even after 6 years, > IRL is a second-rate operation. Not an insult, just a fact. It's a > real shame that the race which once was America's greatest race has > been handed over to the minor league of open wheel racing. And Indy > hasn't elevated the IRL, the IRL has diminished Indy...

m.seery <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:VSyY4.3272$%[email hidden]...

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> Greg I was only joking but one thing from your post springs to mind. > > > > IRL will not admit > > they are the minor league of american openwheel racing. How > > can they when they race in the premier openwheel american > > race; the Indy 500? > > The Indy 500 was dropped from CART for whatever political or practical

The 500 was not dropped by CART. Tony George (the person apparently in charge of the track) essentially kicked tCART out by starting a new league. For the first year, the IRL members were guarranteed at least 20 starting spots regardless of how the CART teams qualified. CART told them to stick it. The first year the IRL used year old CART chassis. Then the "developed" their own chassis and motors. The #1 mantra that IRL used was cheap cheap cheap. They complained (rightly) that CART was just too expensive for many teams to compete. Well DUH!!! > reasons and IRL benifited from it. Just one question. Why by definition is > the Indy 500 still considered the premier open wheeled race? Is it just > because it's run at IMS and is a 500 mile race? If this is the case you Yep... Certainly not because the IRL cars (essentially NASCAR openwheel cars) are more advanced than CART or Formula 1 cars. And most certainly not because the IRL drivers are better. IRL is filled mostly with washed out CART & F1 drivers. The *ONLY* IRL driver that I ever really liked from the start was Tony Steward. He used the IRL as a stepping stone to NASCAR. > might as well save the teams big bucks and run Formula Ford Chassis there. > If it is not the case, what has IRL really got that stands out head and > shoulders over all other series and shouts "This race is still the premier > open wheeled race" IRL has absolutely nothing except that they can run the indy 500. I personally (like many others) am totally insensed that Tony George completely porked the #1 race in the world. At one time the Indy cars were prototype cars directly competing with F1 for technical superiority. Neither one was really more advanced. And at one time the F1 cars were allowed to run the indy 500. I believe Lotus almost won the race one year because their F1 car needed 2 or 3 fewer fuel stops than everyone else... Now F1 is completely superior to CART as CART too is worried about cost. Penske tried to make their own chassis and for the most part were a disaster. IRL is a kit car that *ANYONE* can buy and race. Wow... -- [email hidden] > > > Just a provocative thought <G> > >

Race1530 <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > Just my $0.02. > > 1) I enjoy both CART and IRL. To me they are by far, DIFFERENT series. I > don't even think of them in the same breath anymore. One is an ovalseries and > one if road racing. Really CART is road racing??? Huh... Where is CART racing next weekend? This is the traditional race after the 500... DUH... UM... It is the 1 mile oval at milwalkee... Do you even know what you are talking about?? > 3) Each series has five or six TOPFLITE drivers, another five or six thatcan > win on a good day and the rest are rookies, has-beens and journeymen. Youwill > find this in most series. Name 5 or 6 topflite drivers in the IRL. Greg Ray might be the best in the IRL but he crapped out into the wall. IMHO it is because he couldn't cut the mustard when it counted. After Montoya passed him on lap 27 the guy was lost. >6) All in all I thought it was a terrific race! Buddy Lazier making a >stirring run to the front. Montoya, turning it up a notch whenever heneeded >to. But in the end, winning the race in the pits, where his team gained 9 >seconds in the last two stops. DUH... It is because Montoya's CART team was doing the pitstops. ANd as you saw that team blows away the IRL pit crews. DUH again. -- [email hidden]

In article <VSyY4.3272$%[email hidden]>, "m.seery" <[email hidden]> wrote: >The Indy 500 was dropped from CART for whatever political or practical >reasons and IRL benifited from it. Just one question. Why by definition is >the Indy 500 still considered the premier open wheeled race? It isn't considered the premier open wheeled race in the _world_. Just the US. Most of the rest of the world rates F1 races above any other open-wheeled racing. For them, they might say the Monaco GP is the premeir race. And, as I opined in another post, that's another potential relic of a bygone era. At least it has the same top drivers as before. OTOH, at least the Indy500 has interesting racing (with drivers that are fairly evidently not nearly the same caliber as CART nevermind F1). > Is it just >because it's run at IMS and is a 500 mile race? (again, US). Bingo. Like real-estate, it's location, location, location. Well, really tradition, tradition, tradition. It clearly has nothing to do with the formula of car, nor the caliber of driver. And as to quality or technical nature of the track itself? Clearly, it's the name, the date, the tradition. And its living off of that reputation, just like most has-beens. In this case however, it can return to a semblance of its former glory, if conscientious heads prevail. Okay, while on a fantasy wishlist, I'd add that F1 drivers be wooed over for the race as they where in the 60's (and tought us some lessons then too).

> >I have been thinking about this some. The reason it is the "greatest >spectacle in motor racing" is because it features 33 openwheel >cars traveling at 220+ mph (average) racing for 500 miles. Formula 1 >cars hit just 200 at the end of a long straight if they are lucky. > I really don't think the speed is the issue. It would probably be just as exciting if the cars only did 200. I also think the F1 cars *could* be engineered for higher straight speeds. They're not because handling is a premium at most F1 tracks, maybe...? Eldred -- Tiger Stadium R.I.P. 1912-1999 Own Grand Prix Legends? Goto http://gpl.gamestats.com/vroc Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

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>The "25 and 8" rule did create a hurdle, but all a CART team had to do to >secure themselves a guaranteed starting spot at Indy in 1996 was to either >enter the Walt Disney World race in January (when there was NOTHING at all >on the CART schedule), or the Phoenix race in March (again, when CART had a >clear schedule). All you had to do was enter one race, turn one lap, then >park it, and you had a guaranteed starting spot at Indy, so even the "25 and >8" rule wasn't all that much of an impediment.

How many teams are in the IRL? It there were more than 25, then that wouldn't really guarantee you a spot, right? It was the TOP 25 in IRL standings, wasn't it? You also had to *qualify* for said one lap race, too...<g> Eldred

On 29 May 2000 17:13:45 GMT, [email hidden] (Race1530) wrote: >Just my $0.02. > >1) I enjoy both CART and IRL. To me they are by far, DIFFERENT series. I >don't even think of them in the same breath anymore. One is an oval series and >one if road racing. Gotta love those road courses at Michigan, Fontana, Homestead, Rio, Milwaukee, Nazareth, Chicago, Gateway and Motegi. Wait...isn't that just as many ovals as the nine-race IRL series? Oops. Let's not let anything inconvenient like FACTS get in our way, now shall we? How about this: One is a US ovals ONLY series, the other races a diversity of challenging tracks on four continents. >2) The problem with CART may be that the USA has never really embraced road >racing. Oh, it has it's place, but I don't believe it can sustain a series. I >believe that is why Formula One has had trouble establishing itself. Right. I keep thinking about how unpopular road racing is every time I go to my local CART race in Long Beach. As I push through the crowds of people to get to my seat, I think, "Wow. These people really aren't embracing road racing at all.". Pity the poor F1 circus, too. The US Grand Prix isn't until September, and they don't have any reserved seats left. Oh, what to do, what to do... >3) Each series has five or six TOPFLITE drivers, another five or six that can >win on a good day and the rest are rookies, has-beens and journeymen. You will >find this in most series. Five or six topflight drivers in IRL? NAME THEM. Greg Ray is a real talent, but who else is left? CART: Montoya, Vasser, Franchitti, Andretti, Papis, Brack (ha!), and Tracy. The late Greg Moore would have been listed among their number as well. Among the rookies, Tagliani and Servia show some real promise. Kanaan, da Matta, Carpentier, and Castroneves are all young drivers with tremendous talent who continue to prove their competitiveness with the established talent. In terms of depth of talent on the grid, there is NO comparison between CART and IRL.

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>4) Tony George is not an Ogre. Years ago he had the most prestigious event in >motor racing. All he wanted was to have a vote in the way that racing did it's >business. Yes, including a voice in the direction of american racing. CART >let him join the board and then, in what may have been the worst decision they >could have made, they told George he wouldn't be allowed to vote. George >continued to try and be allowed a say in how racing went. CART, rather >pompously and arrogantly, IMHO, said no. Tony George then said fine. I will >do it all my way. The rest is history.

Give me a break. He was offered a VOTING position on the board. He did not want a vote, he wanted control. Control of what? Several things: 1) Rules. His obsession with the stock block formula in defiance of what the automakers (remember them?) and teams wanted. If this was such a great idea, why have only two manufacturers (and only one is competitive) jumped on the IRL wagon? 2) Drivers. He has made no bones about wanting more "Joneses" and fewer names ending in vowels. Why? Because his race is in Indiana, where they consider drivers born in Ohio to be "foreigners". j/k He wanted sprint car guys rather than road racers, which was another factor. 3) Money. He went into a joint venture with Disney to built a track there, and has gone into other ventures to build tracks. He wants his series to race on his tracks. CART owners were not going to clear sucessful races off of their schedule to run the Mickyard. You're right that he is not an ogre. He is selfish, greedy and foolish. His decisions were bad for the sport, and bad for his track. He diminished one of the great motorsports events in the world to satisfy his own ego. His stubborn refusal to recognize this and settle the matter is as ludicrous as OJ protesting his innocence as he searches the world's golf courses for the real killers. >6) All in all I thought it was a terrific race! Buddy Lazier making a >stirring run to the front. Montoya, turning it up a notch whenever he needed >to. But in the end, winning the race in the pits, where his team gained 9 >seconds in the last two stops. The best racing was watching Greg Ray battle with Montoya in the early laps. Ray is a very skilled and intelligent driver, and that was some of the best wheel-to-wheel racing that Indy has seen in quite some time. It is a shame that Ray went out of the race so early. >I enjoy all racing and just don't care if the two are split. I just want see >good racing. Which is the biggest problem with the split. We would have much better racing if TG were willing to resolve this issue. >Mike

Greg Cisko wrote in message <2eCY4.3018$[email hidden]>...

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>m.seery <[email hidden]> wrote in message >news:VSyY4.3272$%[email hidden]... >> Greg I was only joking but one thing from your post springs to mind. >> >> >> > IRL will not admit >> > they are the minor league of american openwheel racing. How >> > can they when they race in the premier openwheel american >> > race; the Indy 500? >> >> The Indy 500 was dropped from CART for whatever political or practical > >The 500 was not dropped by CART. Tony George (the person apparently >in charge of the track) essentially kicked tCART out by starting a new >league. >For the first year, the IRL members were guarranteed at least 20 starting >spots regardless of how the CART teams qualified. CART told them to >stick it.

IRL members were not "guaranteed at least 20 starting spots," Greg -- it was the "25 and 8" rule which guaranteed at least 25 positions to teams having current IRL points. This rule was a wedge put in place to encourage participation in the IRL series, whose dates were chosen specifically to NOT conflict with CART's existing schedule in 1996 in order to encourage CART participation in the IRL during its first year of existence, when the engine and chassis rules for the IRL were compatible with CART's 1996 engine and chassis formula. CART teams boycotted the IRL races, and they also boycotted the 1996 Indy 500 by choosing to schedule the "US 500" on the same day as the Indy 500. The "25 and 8" rule did create a hurdle, but all a CART team had to do to secure themselves a guaranteed starting spot at Indy in 1996 was to either enter the Walt Disney World race in January (when there was NOTHING at all on the CART schedule), or the Phoenix race in March (again, when CART had a clear schedule). All you had to do was enter one race, turn one lap, then park it, and you had a guaranteed starting spot at Indy, so even the "25 and 8" rule wasn't all that much of an impediment. Thus proving that YOU don't know what you're talking about. At one time I considered you a respectable poster here, but it's become apparent that you really only deserve to be treated with "troll" status, Greg. Pity. -- JB

John Bodin <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:hakY4.741$[email hidden]... > There will never be any hope of merging the 2 leagues as long as divisive > opinions like these continue to fuel the split and drive the wedge even > deeper. > > -- JB Yeah, it's all Greg Cisco's fault that the league split in the first place.

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> > Greg Cisko wrote in message ... > >robswindells <[email hidden]> wrote in message > >news:[email hidden]... > >> Very impressive run by Montoya. Although, he was only up against > >> competition 70-75% of the level he's used to in CART... > > > >Yeah, but it was the most exciting indy in quite a while. It was > >quite a bit of pressure for the Target team. "Yep we will show > >up with your equipment and *STILL* kick your ass." Also, I > >have no doubt that Montoya is head and shoulders above > >zanardi. > > > >Hopefully this will cause some merging of the 2 leagues. > > > > > >-- > > > >[email hidden] > > > > > >> -- > >> Rob Swindells > >> [Rob Swindells Racing] http://swindells.8m.com > >> "Add life to your days, not days to your life." > >> "The greatest substitute for talent is hard work." > >> "Doing it, is better than watching it, is better than simulating it." > >> "I may not be perfect, but parts of me are excellent." > >> > >> > > > > > >

> All you had to do was enter one race, turn one lap, then > park it, and you had a guaranteed starting spot at Indy, so even the "25and > 8" rule wasn't all that much of an impediment. But that's silly. Why have the 25/8 rule at all? Why not just have all the spots for the Indy 500 open to all comers? Why divide open wheel racing? Jim

Mark, the Indy 500 was not "dropped from CART". The split between the IRL and CART meant that the IRL "owner" would, quite naturally, not let the other gang play in his backyard. -- Regards, Bruce Kennewell, Canberra, Australia. --------------------------- m.seery <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:VSyY4.3272$%[email hidden]... > Greg I was only joking but one thing from your post springs to mind. > > > > IRL will not admit > > they are the minor league of american openwheel racing. How > > can they when they race in the premier openwheel american > > race; the Indy 500? > > The Indy 500 was dropped from CART for whatever political or practical > reasons and IRL benifited from it. Just one question. Why by definition is > the Indy 500 still considered the premier open wheeled race? Is it just > because it's run at IMS and is a 500 mile race? If this is the case you > might as well save the teams big bucks and run Formula Ford Chassis there. > If it is not the case, what has IRL really got that stands out head and > shoulders over all other series and shouts "This race is still the premier > open wheeled race" > > > Just a provocative thought <G> > >

<[email hidden]> wrote in message news:8guutj$1s6c$[email hidden]... > In article <VSyY4.3272$%[email hidden]>, "m.seery"<[email hidden]> wrote: > > Is it just > >because it's run at IMS and is a 500 mile race? > > (again, US). Bingo. Like real-estate, it's location, location, location. > Well, really tradition, tradition, tradition. It clearly has nothing todo > with the formula of car, nor the caliber of driver. And as to quality or > technical nature of the track itself? Clearly, it's the name, the date,the > tradition. And its living off of that reputation, just like mosthas-beens. > In this case however, it can return to a semblance of its former glory, if > conscientious heads prevail. I have been thinking about this some. The reason it is the "greatest spectacle in motor racing" is because it features 33 openwheel cars traveling at 220+ mph (average) racing for 500 miles. Formula 1 cars hit just 200 at the end of a long straight if they are lucky. -- [email hidden]

"John Bodin" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:GmGY4.789$[email hidden]... > IRL members were not "guaranteed at least 20 starting spots," Greg -- itwas > the "25 and 8" rule which guaranteed at least 25 positions to teams having > current IRL points. Oh gee my apologies. My claim of 20 spots reserved for IRL teams seems so way out of line... Yes... 25/8 seems so much more reasonable. What was I thinking?!?!

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> This rule was a wedge put in place to encourage participation in the IRL > series, whose dates were chosen specifically to NOT conflict with CART's > existing schedule in 1996 in order to encourage CART participation in the > IRL during its first year of existence, when the engine and chassis rules > for the IRL were compatible with CART's 1996 engine and chassis formula. > CART teams boycotted the IRL races, and they also boycotted the 1996 Indy > 500 by choosing to schedule the "US 500" on the same day as the Indy 500. > The "25 and 8" rule did create a hurdle, but all a CART team had to do to

Are you sure it was a hurdle??? Very surprising statement coming from and IRL apologist like yourself. > secure themselves a guaranteed starting spot at Indy in 1996 was to either > enter the Walt Disney World race in January (when there was NOTHING at all > on the CART schedule), or the Phoenix race in March (again, when CART hada > clear schedule). All you had to do was enter one race, turn one lap, then > park it, and you had a guaranteed starting spot at Indy, so even the "25and > 8" rule wasn't all that much of an impediment. Sure... > Thus proving that YOU don't know what you're talking about. Sure. (but you did prove all my points) > At one time I considered you a respectable poster here, but it's become > apparent that you really only deserve to be treated with "troll" status, > Greg. Pity. Whatever... -- [email hidden]

Dropped, kicked out, walked away...All scemantics. I did say for whatever reason. Agreed, I'm no CART,Indy, USAC or whatever expert <G>That was not my point though. MS "Greg Cisko" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:2eCY4.3018$[email hidden]...

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> m.seery <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:VSyY4.3272$%[email hidden]... > > Greg I was only joking but one thing from your post springs to mind. > > > > > > > IRL will not admit > > > they are the minor league of american openwheel racing. How > > > can they when they race in the premier openwheel american > > > race; the Indy 500? > > > > The Indy 500 was dropped from CART for whatever political or practical > > The 500 was not dropped by CART. Tony George (the person apparently > in charge of the track) essentially kicked tCART out by starting a new > league. > For the first year, the IRL members were guarranteed at least 20 starting > spots regardless of how the CART teams qualified. CART told them to > stick it. > > The first year the IRL used year old CART chassis. Then the "developed" > their own chassis and motors. The #1 mantra that IRL used was cheap > cheap cheap. They complained (rightly) that CART was just too expensive > for many teams to compete. Well DUH!!! > > > reasons and IRL benifited from it. Just one question. Why by definition

is > > the Indy 500 still considered the premier open wheeled race? Is it just > > because it's run at IMS and is a 500 mile race? If this is the case you > > Yep... Certainly not because the IRL cars (essentially NASCAR openwheel > cars) are more advanced than CART or Formula 1 cars. And most certainly > not because the IRL drivers are better. IRL is filled mostly with washedout > CART & F1 drivers. The *ONLY* IRL driver that I ever really liked from the > start was Tony Steward. He used the IRL as a stepping stone to NASCAR. > > > might as well save the teams big bucks and run Formula Ford Chassisthere. > > If it is not the case, what has IRL really got that stands out head and > > shoulders over all other series and shouts "This race is still thepremier

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> > open wheeled race" > > IRL has absolutely nothing except that they can run the indy 500. > > I personally (like many others) am totally insensed that Tony George > completely porked the #1 race in the world. At one time the Indy > cars were prototype cars directly competing with F1 for technical > superiority. Neither one was really more advanced. And at one time > the F1 cars were allowed to run the indy 500. I believe Lotus almost > won the race one year because their F1 car needed 2 or 3 fewer > fuel stops than everyone else... > > Now F1 is completely superior to CART as CART too is worried > about cost. Penske tried to make their own chassis and for the > most part were a disaster. > > IRL is a kit car that *ANYONE* can buy and race. Wow... > > > -- > > [email hidden] > > > > > > > > Just a provocative thought <G> > > > > > >

[email hidden] (EldredP) writes:

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> > > >I have been thinking about this some. The reason it is the "greatest > >spectacle in motor racing" is because it features 33 openwheel > >cars traveling at 220+ mph (average) racing for 500 miles. Formula 1 > >cars hit just 200 at the end of a long straight if they are lucky. > > > > I really don't think the speed is the issue. It would probably be just as > exciting if the cars only did 200. > I also think the F1 cars *could* be engineered for higher straight speeds. > They're not because handling is a premium at most F1 tracks, maybe...? >

Didn't Coulthard do 239 mph just before braking for the first chicane at Hockenheim ? -- Olav K. Malmin remove spam when replying

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>> I really don't think the speed is the issue. It would probably be just as >> exciting if the cars only did 200. > >Yes you might be right. The "spectacle" is most likely because originaly >the race was for prototype cars of all types (not much of a formula per se). >Remember Andy Granatellies turbine? >

I'm not old enough to remember when they originally ran(born in 1963). But I've seen the films - looks like a cool car... Eldred -- Tiger Stadium R.I.P. 1912-1999 Own Grand Prix Legends? Goto http://gpl.gamestats.com/vroc Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

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>Yeah, but listening to his post-crash interview on the radio (I was at >work), it's clear that both Ray and his crew panic very easily. When he >was unable to keep up with the torrid pace that was being set by Montoya >early on, they decided their gearing was all wrong & compensate for it >by drastically reducing the overall downforce. As a result, he gets a >concrete sandwich just a few laps later. Instead of realizing that it >is a long race, and the pace will certainly cool out after a while. At >least, his crew should have known better. If Ray can mature, he may be >the only one with any *real* potential in the group. But not right now. >

Yeah, I thought that was dumb. Dial downforce out of a (supposedly) already balanced car... Eldred -- Tiger Stadium R.I.P. 1912-1999 Own Grand Prix Legends? Goto http://gpl.gamestats.com/vroc Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

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>(snip) >As for Montoya, he is on another planet. >No matter where he drives he will win. >(unsnip) > >I seem to recall similar words being made about Mario Andretti many (MANY!) >years ago. They proved to be correct. >More recently, the same was said of Monsieur Villeneuve....and he became an >F1 World Champion also.

We've also said the same thing about Greger...<g> Eldred -- Tiger Stadium R.I.P. 1912-1999 Own Grand Prix Legends? Goto http://gpl.gamestats.com/vroc Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

Dear Greg, People like you are the reason I don't post much to RAS. You have the innate ability to take the meaning of a statement and turn it into a hard and fast rule. You TRY to misunderstand. At least I hope that's the reason. I thought I spoke my opinion quietly and intelligently, but apparently it was lost on you, as seen by your sophmoric responses. One is an oval series and one is a roadracing series. If you have been around racing long enough you would know that the original reason for the series split was that CART wanted to keep the road racing dates and Tony George wanted to go more towards ovals. This was my MEANING. Does CART go to ovals? Yes, of course they do. Does IRL go to road circuits. No. Not one. So for all PRACTICAL purposes, one is an oval series while one LEANS HEAVILY towards road racing. Five or Six top-flite drivers. Eddie Cheever, Greg Ray, Al Unser Jr., Eliseo Salazar, Scott Goodyear, Jeff Ward. Any one of these guys could compete with the drivers on the CART circuit and, in fact, have.. Although being the CART fanatic you are I don't expect you to see it. As for pit stops I saw Montoy's team blowing away VASSERS pit crew. By far one of the better pit crews I have seen this side of the Jeff Gordons Rainbow warriors. All in all a terrific race. Period. As for Montoya, he is on another planet. No matter where he drives he will win. Hopefully this will paint a better picture for you, although granted, it will have to be in crayon. Mike

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] (Olav K. Malmin) writes:

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> >[email hidden] (EldredP) writes: > >> > >> >I have been thinking about this some. The reason it is the "greatest >> >spectacle in motor racing" is because it features 33 openwheel >> >cars traveling at 220+ mph (average) racing for 500 miles. Formula 1 >> >cars hit just 200 at the end of a long straight if they are lucky. >> > >> >> I really don't think the speed is the issue. It would probably be just as >> exciting if the cars only did 200. >> I also think the F1 cars *could* be engineered for higher straight speeds. >> They're not because handling is a premium at most F1 tracks, maybe...? >> > >Didn't Coulthard do 239 mph just before braking for the first chicane >at Hockenheim ?

Hadn't heard that. On a track like Hockenheim it wouldn't surprise me, though. Eldred -- Tiger Stadium R.I.P. 1912-1999 Own Grand Prix Legends? Goto http://gpl.gamestats.com/vroc Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

To Velocitas, who claimed that TG had the option of voting. All of what we talk about is simply opinion. Best drivers, best cars, best this and that. This is fact. From the Archives at the Indianapolis News. Nov 1993. George was AGAIN refused a vote in how open wheel racing went. He eventually resigned on January 8th 1994 when once more he was refused the right to vote. Seems to me someones ego is huge. And it just may be the officers of CART who stupidly didn't allow him a vote. How easy it would have been to avoid all this. All he wanted was one lousy vote! Indycar shuffling again By DICK MITTMAN Speedway president Tony George can help find a potential chairman for Championship Auto Racing Teams. But he can't vote on who will get the job. That was one of the results of an eight-hour IndyCar owners meeting Wednesday at the Holiday Inn Airport. Another was change of the board from five back to 24. Actually, it's 16, but those owners with more than one franchise - Roger Penske, Carl Haas, Dick Simon, Rick Galles, Derrick Walkerf and Dale Coyne - get additional votes. Thus, the board is back where it was when it was called too unwieldy to reach any decision and was trimmed to five. That was in July, 1992. Coyne, Haas, Penske, Jim Hall and Walker called the shots for the past 15 months, with George and chairman William Stokkan, who was dismissed through a buyout last week, were board members without a vote. The same owners who created the five-man board began to complain they weren't being represented properly. So it was back to a board containing all members. George again was appointed as a non-voting member. The new board then named a five-member committee to review potential chairmen among four previously mentioned candidates and to interview any new ones they might choose. Carl Hogan, co-owner with driver Bobby Rahal of next year's first Honda entry, will chair the committee. Other owners on the committee are Galles, Chip Ganassi and Haas. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------ Published: Thursday, November 11, 1993 in THE INDIANAPOLIS NEWS Page: D05 � 1993 Indianapolis Newspapers, Inc. Now do you get it? He tried to do it their way. How easy it would have been to say, Yeah! Tony, go ahead and vote! But as usual with the likes of Roger Penske, it all comes down to money. Thats why the more teams you own the more votes you get What a shame. Mike

Race1530 wrote: > Five or Six top-flite drivers. Eddie Cheever, Greg Ray, Al Unser Jr., Eliseo > Salazar, Scott Goodyear, Jeff Ward. Any one of these guys could compete with > the drivers on the CART circuit and, in fact, have.. Although being the CART > fanatic you are I don't expect you to see it. > You were doing OK until you got here. I submit that none of these drivers could be a serious week in & week out contender on the CART series. Ray might have potential somewhere down the road, but not yet. As for the others... -- Chuck Kandler #70 K&S Racing http://www.fortunecity.com/silverstone/thepits/195 Your freedom's just a state of mind. --Gene Simmons From the song "War Machine", 1982

Yeah, but before that??? --

"EldredP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> > > >I have been thinking about this some. The reason it is the "greatest > >spectacle in motor racing" is because it features 33 openwheel > >cars traveling at 220+ mph (average) racing for 500 miles. Formula 1 > >cars hit just 200 at the end of a long straight if they are lucky. > > > > I really don't think the speed is the issue. It would probably be just as > exciting if the cars only did 200.

Yes you might be right. The "spectacle" is most likely because originaly the race was for prototype cars of all types (not much of a formula per se). Remember Andy Granatellies turbine? -- [email hidden] > I also think the F1 cars *could* be engineered for higher straight speeds. > They're not because handling is a premium at most F1 tracks, maybe...? > > Eldred > -- > Tiger Stadium R.I.P. 1912-1999 > Own Grand Prix Legends? Goto http://gpl.gamestats.com/vroc > > Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you > with experience... > Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

"Race1530" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > Five or Six top-flite drivers. Eddie Cheever, Greg Ray, Al Unser Jr.,Eliseo > Salazar, Scott Goodyear, Jeff Ward. Any one of these guys could competewith > the drivers on the CART circuit and, in fact, have.. Although being theCART > fanatic you are I don't expect you to see it. Cheever was a F1 backmarker and washed up before he spent many years in CART. He was a constant top 10 type of driver. Greg Ray? He just won the IRL championship last year wow. Al Jr. is totally washed up and was constantly at the back of the pack for the last couple of years. The fact that he won a race this year says something of the watered down series. Salazar and Goodyear are also washed up CART drivers. Jeff Ward??? Don't know but he seemed like a nice guy at the banquet which was broadcast last night. And for the record, I like Cheever little Al and Goodyear and even Lyendyke when he was racing. A funny thing... I have a relative (by marrige) that insists that Billy Boat is the real deal just like Stewart... maybe better. Apparently Boat was a sprintcar champ or something. Because of this, I would have thought you would have mentioned him. > Hopefully this will paint a better picture for you, although granted, itwill > have to be in crayon. Yes it sure does thank you. -- [email hidden]

> (snip) > As for Montoya, he is on another planet. > No matter where he drives he will win. > (unsnip) You may be right, but people forget that he tied with Dario Franchitti for the CART Championship last year. Montoya was awarded the title on the basis of a more-wins tie-breaker. Interestingly enough, this year in CART after five races, Montoya is currently in 9th place with no wins. Still, it wouldn't surprise me to see him come back and win the title anyway. He may do the same in F1, as long as he is in one of the competitive cars. Jim

Greg Cisko wrote:

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> > "Race1530" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > Five or Six top-flite drivers. Eddie Cheever, Greg Ray, Al Unser Jr., > Eliseo > > Salazar, Scott Goodyear, Jeff Ward. Any one of these guys could compete > with > > the drivers on the CART circuit and, in fact, have.. Although being the > CART > > fanatic you are I don't expect you to see it. > > Cheever was a F1 backmarker and washed up before he spent many > years in CART. He was a constant top 10 type of driver. > > Greg Ray? He just won the IRL championship last year wow.

Yeah, but listening to his post-crash interview on the radio (I was at work), it's clear that both Ray and his crew panic very easily. When he was unable to keep up with the torrid pace that was being set by Montoya early on, they decided their gearing was all wrong & compensate for it by drastically reducing the overall downforce. As a result, he gets a concrete sandwich just a few laps later. Instead of realizing that it is a long race, and the pace will certainly cool out after a while. At least, his crew should have known better. If Ray can mature, he may be the only one with any *real* potential in the group. But not right now. -- Chuck Kandler #70 K&S Racing http://www.fortunecity.com/silverstone/thepits/195 Your freedom's just a state of mind. --Gene Simmons From the song "War Machine", 1982

"Bruce Kennewell" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:3934f877$[email hidden]... > "Not much of a formula"??? > > Have a look back at the RULES governing the race down the years, Gregory, > and particularly those applying between, let's say, 1960 and 1970. Quitea > few amendments were made on or about 1967! Yeah, but before that??? -- [email hidden]

(snip) As for Montoya, he is on another planet. No matter where he drives he will win. (unsnip) I seem to recall similar words being made about Mario Andretti many (MANY!) years ago. They proved to be correct. More recently, the same was said of Monsieur Villeneuve....and he became an F1 World Champion also. So your brave statement may hold more than an element of fact, Michael. -- Regards, Bruce Kennewell, Canberra, Australia. --------------------------- Race1530 <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

"Not much of a formula"??? Have a look back at the RULES governing the race down the years, Gregory, and particularly those applying between, let's say, 1960 and 1970. Quite a few amendments were made on or about 1967! -- Regards, Bruce Kennewell, Canberra, Australia. --------------------------- Greg Cisko <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:7f8Z4.3486$[email hidden]... > "EldredP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > > > > >I have been thinking about this some. The reason it is the "greatest > > >spectacle in motor racing" is because it features 33 openwheel > > >cars traveling at 220+ mph (average) racing for 500 miles. Formula 1 > > >cars hit just 200 at the end of a long straight if they are lucky. > > > > > > > I really don't think the speed is the issue. It would probably be just as > > exciting if the cars only did 200. > > Yes you might be right. The "spectacle" is most likely because originaly > the race was for prototype cars of all types (not much of a formula per se). > Remember Andy Granatellies turbine? > > -- > > [email hidden] > > > > I also think the F1 cars *could* be engineered for higher straight speeds. > > They're not because handling is a premium at most F1 tracks, maybe...? > > > > Eldred > > -- > > Tiger Stadium R.I.P. 1912-1999 > > Own Grand Prix Legends? Goto http://gpl.gamestats.com/vroc > > > > Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats > you > > with experience... > > Remove SPAM-OFF to reply. > >

Well, two out of three isn't too bad. Can't win 'em all. :-) -- Regards, Bruce Kennewell, Canberra, Australia. --------------------------- EldredP <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > >(snip) > >As for Montoya, he is on another planet. > >No matter where he drives he will win. > >(unsnip) > > > >I seem to recall similar words being made about Mario Andretti many (MANY!) > >years ago. They proved to be correct. > >More recently, the same was said of Monsieur Villeneuve....and he became an > >F1 World Champion also. > > We've also said the same thing about Greger...<g> > > Eldred > -- > Tiger Stadium R.I.P. 1912-1999 > Own Grand Prix Legends? Goto http://gpl.gamestats.com/vroc > > Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you > with experience... > Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

Quite extensive...everything from the design of the car through to what the winning driver had to do after crossing the finishing line. Naturally, like anything where technological change occurs, the rules were added to and altered through the years. (Particularly after 1967! :-)) -- Regards, Bruce Kennewell, Canberra, Australia. --------------------------- Greg Cisko <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:cTfZ4.3607$[email hidden]... > "Bruce Kennewell" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:3934f877$[email hidden]... > > "Not much of a formula"??? > > > > Have a look back at the RULES governing the race down the years, Gregory, > > and particularly those applying between, let's say, 1960 and 1970. Quite > a > > few amendments were made on or about 1967! > > Yeah, but before that??? > > > -- > > [email hidden] > > > >