NSR - Some info and some tweaks

I acknowledge that the demo leaves much to be desired, but after reading some forum posts at http://www.onlineracin.com/forum/tt.asp?forumid=34 by Bob Stanley and Joe Lomas, and applying some of the tweaks that others have posted, I believe there is light at the end of the tunnel. I realize there are some here that are going to criticize this effort no matter what, and that is understandable. You can't please everyone all the time. For the rest of us that are some what on the fence hoping for the next generation of a stock car sim, it sounds like EA can deliver. Bob Stanley has stated that the demo is quite a few builds behind what he has been working on. So much so that his current setups will not even work in the demo. Here's an excerpt from a letter from EA: </quote> "As far as the new release date, remember that Tiburon made the decision to work on NASCAR SimRacing for an additional 2 weeks to continue tuning the gameplay and AI. Working with our Beta Test team and several NASCAR drivers, we have received great feedback and wanted to take the time to make some additional adjustments that will help make NASCAR SimRacing a true to like NASCAR Simulation. The game will still be available by Daytona, shipping from our warehouse of February 15 to retail stores everywhere. In addition to taking an extra 2 weeks to continue tuning NASCAR SimRacing, our commitment will extend far beyond the games ship date. We have decided to keep an internal production and development team focused exclusively on the sim for many months after the game launch. You can pass this along to the community and please make sure that they understand that EA is truly committed to the sim racing community." </endquote> I personally interpret the last two sentences to mean there will most likely be a patch coming some time after the February release, since I'm sure they want to take advantage of the Daytona week hype for the release. Here are some demo tweaks that I have compiled from what others have posted that have really improved the playability of the demo. Navigate to: EA SPORTS \ NASCAR SimRacing Demo \ Save \ [player name] folder \ [player name].plr file [ DRIVING AIDS ] No AI Control="1" // AI never has control over car except autopit and auto pace lap. (Keeps you from being kicked to external view when stalled on track) Half Rate="0" // 0 = super-high physics rate, 1 = normal [ SOUND OPTIONS ] Maximum Effects="16" // Maximum sound effect playing simultaneously 8-48 (Improves player's engine sound level. Supposedly fixed in final release) [ GRAPHIC OPTIONS ] Broadcast Overlay="0" // 0 = Off, 1 = On (Stops the broadcast info that pops up on the top of the screen) Rearview Backplane Multiplier="5.00000" // Multiplier on the rearview's viewing distance Rearview Mirror Shake="0" // Whether to shake the rearview mirror (0=off, 1=on) Self In Rearview="0" // Whether own car appears in rearview (Huge improvement to mirror visibility) AI max texture size="0" // 0=Off (Default is 512) Cockpit Shake On="0" // 1=shake cockpit, 0=off MISC You can take screen shots by hitting the F12 key at anytime during the race or replay To prevent the EA Sports Movie from running at the start of the sim, go to the Movies sub-directory and rename eas.bik to oldeas.bik Tired of being reminded it's the demo? Go to the Options sub-directory and rename gametitle.jpg to oldgametitle.jpg. Create a copy of the load.jpg, and rename the copy to gametitle.jpg

Bob V wrote:

Quoted text (91 lines)

> I acknowledge that the demo leaves much to be desired, but after reading > some forum posts at http://www.onlineracin.com/forum/tt.asp?forumid=34 by > Bob Stanley and Joe Lomas, and applying some of the tweaks that others have > posted, I believe there is light at the end of the tunnel. > > I realize there are some here that are going to criticize this effort no > matter what, and that is understandable. You can't please everyone all the > time. For the rest of us that are some what on the fence hoping for the > next generation of a stock car sim, it sounds like EA can deliver. > > Bob Stanley has stated that the demo is quite a few builds behind what he > has been working on. So much so that his current setups will not even work > in the demo. > > Here's an excerpt from a letter from EA: > > </quote> "As far as the new release date, remember that Tiburon made the > decision to work on NASCAR SimRacing for an additional 2 weeks to continue > tuning the gameplay and AI. Working with our Beta Test team and several > NASCAR drivers, we have received great feedback and wanted to take the time > to make some additional adjustments that will help make NASCAR SimRacing a > true to like NASCAR Simulation. The game will still be available by > Daytona, shipping from our warehouse of February 15 to retail stores > everywhere. > > In addition to taking an extra 2 weeks to continue tuning NASCAR SimRacing, > our commitment will extend far beyond the games ship date. We have decided > to keep an internal production and development team focused exclusively on > the sim for many months after the game launch. > > You can pass this along to the community and please make sure that they > understand that EA is truly committed to the sim racing community." > </endquote> > > I personally interpret the last two sentences to mean there will most likely > be a patch coming some time after the February release, since I'm sure they > want to take advantage of the Daytona week hype for the release. > > Here are some demo tweaks that I have compiled from what others have posted > that have really improved the playability of the demo. > > Navigate to: EA SPORTS \ NASCAR SimRacing Demo \ Save \ [player name] folder > \ [player name].plr file > [ DRIVING AIDS ] > > No AI Control="1" // AI never has control over car except autopit and auto > pace lap. (Keeps you from being kicked to external view when stalled on > track) > > Half Rate="0" // 0 = super-high physics rate, 1 = normal > > > > [ SOUND OPTIONS ] > > Maximum Effects="16" // Maximum sound effect playing simultaneously 8-48 > (Improves player's engine sound level. Supposedly fixed in final release) > > > > [ GRAPHIC OPTIONS ] > > Broadcast Overlay="0" // 0 = Off, 1 = On (Stops the broadcast info that pops > up on the top of the screen) > > Rearview Backplane Multiplier="5.00000" // Multiplier on the rearview's > viewing distance > > Rearview Mirror Shake="0" // Whether to shake the rearview mirror (0=off, > 1=on) > > Self In Rearview="0" // Whether own car appears in rearview (Huge > improvement to mirror visibility) > > AI max texture size="0" // 0=Off (Default is 512) > > Cockpit Shake On="0" // 1=shake cockpit, 0=off > > > > MISC > > You can take screen shots by hitting the F12 key at anytime during the race > or replay > > To prevent the EA Sports Movie from running at the start of the sim, go to > the Movies sub-directory and rename eas.bik to oldeas.bik > > Tired of being reminded it's the demo? Go to the Options sub-directory and > rename gametitle.jpg to oldgametitle.jpg. Create a copy of the load.jpg, > and rename the copy to gametitle.jpg

Thanks for the tips link Bob. I am going to reinstall and try again. Maybe I can make this thing decent!

Admittedly, this IS a demo, so I can't expect to see all the options/refinements, but this is the type of stuff that turns OFF sim racers. Why does every EA racing title (and I have F12000,2001,F1C and NT2004, plus this demo) require the substantial editing of various .plr, .ini and other files to make the product correct? (Halfrates, tire sampling etc) Why do I need to manually edit a file with a text editor, when we all know that GUI capability will be forthcoming by the editing crowd? (Example: the extra display screen and setup options for F1C).It seems like EA knows that modders will do the work they don't and they skimp on these details. Is there not a SINGLE person from the dev team that every goes to a sim racing board and reads posts? If you see all the work that modders do, then why not include the ideas in you new product?

Agreed. Especially odd since they claim to have simmers involved with the testing and development. I don't understand why EA would put out a demo with known issues that would cause such bad feedback. They know the sim crowd is hard to please, they know they have a track record of putting out poor sim titles, they know people are going to jump on them good or bad, they know everyone is going to compare this to NR2003, but yet they put out a demo that some claim is based on old code, needs tweaks, missing key features, etc. The point of a demo is to show people what the real thing is like so they buy it. As is they seem to be turning more people off than building a market. They really needed to come out with something to blow our socks off, not something that is half finished that might be ok with some flaws that loos like it might be on par with NR2003. 3 years ahead of NR2003 and it looks to be equal. As for the extra 2 weeks of work being put into it, well after 18+ months of development I hate to think they are making key changes this late in the game. EA also has a very poor track record for patches. Their idea of a patch is usually fixing it in the next release. The also have a good track record for releasing buggy items. Madden for example has had a number of key problems the last few years that made it to release that were spotted within days by players. Just my thoughts on this so far. Here is hoping they pull this off. "Darus" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

Quoted text (14 lines)

> Admittedly, this IS a demo, so I can't expect to see all the > options/refinements, but this is the type of stuff that turns OFF sim > racers. Why does every EA racing title (and I have F12000,2001,F1C and > NT2004, plus this demo) require the substantial editing of various > .plr, .ini and other files to make the product correct? (Halfrates, > tire sampling etc) Why do I need to manually edit a file with a text > editor, when we all know that GUI capability will be forthcoming by the > editing crowd? (Example: the extra display screen and setup options for > F1C).It seems like EA knows that modders will do the work they don't > and they skimp on these details. Is there not a SINGLE person from the > dev team that every goes to a sim racing board and reads posts? If you > see all the work that modders do, then why not include the ideas in you > new product? >

Perhaps they should have called this a beta and not a demo. A demo implies it is a stripped down version of the final product not a interim preview release. "Bob V" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

Quoted text (106 lines)

>I acknowledge that the demo leaves much to be desired, but after reading > some forum posts at http://www.onlineracin.com/forum/tt.asp?forumid=34 by > Bob Stanley and Joe Lomas, and applying some of the tweaks that others > have > posted, I believe there is light at the end of the tunnel. > > I realize there are some here that are going to criticize this effort no > matter what, and that is understandable. You can't please everyone all > the > time. For the rest of us that are some what on the fence hoping for the > next generation of a stock car sim, it sounds like EA can deliver. > > Bob Stanley has stated that the demo is quite a few builds behind what he > has been working on. So much so that his current setups will not even > work > in the demo. > > Here's an excerpt from a letter from EA: > > </quote> "As far as the new release date, remember that Tiburon made the > decision to work on NASCAR SimRacing for an additional 2 weeks to continue > tuning the gameplay and AI. Working with our Beta Test team and several > NASCAR drivers, we have received great feedback and wanted to take the > time > to make some additional adjustments that will help make NASCAR SimRacing a > true to like NASCAR Simulation. The game will still be available by > Daytona, shipping from our warehouse of February 15 to retail stores > everywhere. > > In addition to taking an extra 2 weeks to continue tuning NASCAR > SimRacing, > our commitment will extend far beyond the games ship date. We have > decided > to keep an internal production and development team focused exclusively on > the sim for many months after the game launch. > > You can pass this along to the community and please make sure that they > understand that EA is truly committed to the sim racing community." > </endquote> > > I personally interpret the last two sentences to mean there will most > likely > be a patch coming some time after the February release, since I'm sure > they > want to take advantage of the Daytona week hype for the release. > > Here are some demo tweaks that I have compiled from what others have > posted > that have really improved the playability of the demo. > > Navigate to: EA SPORTS \ NASCAR SimRacing Demo \ Save \ [player name] > folder > \ [player name].plr file > [ DRIVING AIDS ] > > No AI Control="1" // AI never has control over car except autopit and auto > pace lap. (Keeps you from being kicked to external view when stalled on > track) > > Half Rate="0" // 0 = super-high physics rate, 1 = normal > > > > [ SOUND OPTIONS ] > > Maximum Effects="16" // Maximum sound effect playing simultaneously 8-48 > (Improves player's engine sound level. Supposedly fixed in final release) > > > > [ GRAPHIC OPTIONS ] > > Broadcast Overlay="0" // 0 = Off, 1 = On (Stops the broadcast info that > pops > up on the top of the screen) > > Rearview Backplane Multiplier="5.00000" // Multiplier on the rearview's > viewing distance > > Rearview Mirror Shake="0" // Whether to shake the rearview mirror (0=off, > 1=on) > > Self In Rearview="0" // Whether own car appears in rearview (Huge > improvement to mirror visibility) > > AI max texture size="0" // 0=Off (Default is 512) > > Cockpit Shake On="0" // 1=shake cockpit, 0=off > > > > MISC > > You can take screen shots by hitting the F12 key at anytime during the > race > or replay > > To prevent the EA Sports Movie from running at the start of the sim, go to > the Movies sub-directory and rename eas.bik to oldeas.bik > > Tired of being reminded it's the demo? Go to the Options sub-directory > and > rename gametitle.jpg to oldgametitle.jpg. Create a copy of the load.jpg, > and rename the copy to gametitle.jpg > >

Some of these sound useful, especially the mirror stuff. Applying shortly! -Larry "Bob V" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

Quoted text (106 lines)

>I acknowledge that the demo leaves much to be desired, but after reading > some forum posts at http://www.onlineracin.com/forum/tt.asp?forumid=34 by > Bob Stanley and Joe Lomas, and applying some of the tweaks that others > have > posted, I believe there is light at the end of the tunnel. > > I realize there are some here that are going to criticize this effort no > matter what, and that is understandable. You can't please everyone all > the > time. For the rest of us that are some what on the fence hoping for the > next generation of a stock car sim, it sounds like EA can deliver. > > Bob Stanley has stated that the demo is quite a few builds behind what he > has been working on. So much so that his current setups will not even > work > in the demo. > > Here's an excerpt from a letter from EA: > > </quote> "As far as the new release date, remember that Tiburon made the > decision to work on NASCAR SimRacing for an additional 2 weeks to continue > tuning the gameplay and AI. Working with our Beta Test team and several > NASCAR drivers, we have received great feedback and wanted to take the > time > to make some additional adjustments that will help make NASCAR SimRacing a > true to like NASCAR Simulation. The game will still be available by > Daytona, shipping from our warehouse of February 15 to retail stores > everywhere. > > In addition to taking an extra 2 weeks to continue tuning NASCAR > SimRacing, > our commitment will extend far beyond the games ship date. We have > decided > to keep an internal production and development team focused exclusively on > the sim for many months after the game launch. > > You can pass this along to the community and please make sure that they > understand that EA is truly committed to the sim racing community." > </endquote> > > I personally interpret the last two sentences to mean there will most > likely > be a patch coming some time after the February release, since I'm sure > they > want to take advantage of the Daytona week hype for the release. > > Here are some demo tweaks that I have compiled from what others have > posted > that have really improved the playability of the demo. > > Navigate to: EA SPORTS \ NASCAR SimRacing Demo \ Save \ [player name] > folder > \ [player name].plr file > [ DRIVING AIDS ] > > No AI Control="1" // AI never has control over car except autopit and auto > pace lap. (Keeps you from being kicked to external view when stalled on > track) > > Half Rate="0" // 0 = super-high physics rate, 1 = normal > > > > [ SOUND OPTIONS ] > > Maximum Effects="16" // Maximum sound effect playing simultaneously 8-48 > (Improves player's engine sound level. Supposedly fixed in final release) > > > > [ GRAPHIC OPTIONS ] > > Broadcast Overlay="0" // 0 = Off, 1 = On (Stops the broadcast info that > pops > up on the top of the screen) > > Rearview Backplane Multiplier="5.00000" // Multiplier on the rearview's > viewing distance > > Rearview Mirror Shake="0" // Whether to shake the rearview mirror (0=off, > 1=on) > > Self In Rearview="0" // Whether own car appears in rearview (Huge > improvement to mirror visibility) > > AI max texture size="0" // 0=Off (Default is 512) > > Cockpit Shake On="0" // 1=shake cockpit, 0=off > > > > MISC > > You can take screen shots by hitting the F12 key at anytime during the > race > or replay > > To prevent the EA Sports Movie from running at the start of the sim, go to > the Movies sub-directory and rename eas.bik to oldeas.bik > > Tired of being reminded it's the demo? Go to the Options sub-directory > and > rename gametitle.jpg to oldgametitle.jpg. Create a copy of the load.jpg, > and rename the copy to gametitle.jpg > >

> > Bob Stanley has stated that the demo is quite a few builds behind what he > has been working on. So much so that his current setups will not even > work > in the demo. Now doesn't this seems kinda dumb to release a demo that will not even be the same as the final product? Why should I and so many others spend even a minute to get the feel for the game when in fact that the demo doesn't even represent the final product? Bad move on EA's part if you ask me. If the demo would have been the same as the final game itself then I would be looking forward to purchasing it. Now it's the waiting game here to see what others have to say about the final release. Been burned before from EA on one of their Nascar titles and refuse to get burned again.

That was done with N4 as well :) None of the setups for N4 demo worked for release game. Most people forget that, or choose not to remember because it was Papy and this is EA. Bill Bollinger www.gsxn.com "BClay" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

Quoted text (16 lines)

> >> >> Bob Stanley has stated that the demo is quite a few builds behind what he >> has been working on. So much so that his current setups will not even >> work >> in the demo. > > Now doesn't this seems kinda dumb to release a demo that will not even be > the same as the final product? Why should I and so many others spend even > a minute to get the feel for the game when in fact that the demo doesn't > even represent the final product? Bad move on EA's part if you ask me. If > the demo would have been the same as the final game itself then I would be > looking forward to purchasing it. Now it's the waiting game here to see > what others have to say about the final release. Been burned before from > EA on one of their Nascar titles and refuse to get burned again. >

Hehe, yep. "Bill Bollinger" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:9hUId.20999$[email hidden]... > That was done with N4 as well :) None of the setups for N4 demo workedfor > release game. Most people forget that, or choose not to remember becauseit

Quoted text (11 lines)

> was Papy and this is EA. > > Bill Bollinger > www.gsxn.com > > > "BClay" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > > >> > >> Bob Stanley has stated that the demo is quite a few builds behind what

he > >> has been working on. So much so that his current setups will not even > >> work > >> in the demo. > > > > Now doesn't this seems kinda dumb to release a demo that will not evenbe > > the same as the final product? Why should I and so many others spendeven > > a minute to get the feel for the game when in fact that the demo doesn't > > even represent the final product? Bad move on EA's part if you ask me.If > > the demo would have been the same as the final game itself then I wouldbe > > looking forward to purchasing it. Now it's the waiting game here to see > > what others have to say about the final release. Been burned before from > > EA on one of their Nascar titles and refuse to get burned again. > > > >

Bill Bollinger wrote:

Quoted text (28 lines)

> That was done with N4 as well :) None of the setups for N4 demo worked > for > release game. Most people forget that, or choose not to remember because > it was Papy and this is EA. > > Bill Bollinger > www.gsxn.com > > > "BClay" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... >> >>> >>> Bob Stanley has stated that the demo is quite a few builds behind what >>> he >>> has been working on. So much so that his current setups will not even >>> work >>> in the demo. >> >> Now doesn't this seems kinda dumb to release a demo that will not even be >> the same as the final product? Why should I and so many others spend even >> a minute to get the feel for the game when in fact that the demo doesn't >> even represent the final product? Bad move on EA's part if you ask me. If >> the demo would have been the same as the final game itself then I would >> be looking forward to purchasing it. Now it's the waiting game here to >> see what others have to say about the final release. Been burned before >> from EA on one of their Nascar titles and refuse to get burned again. >>

The base physics may have changed a bit to make the original N4 demo setups not work but the overall game was basically unchanged. I fear this is going to be the case for NSR and they dont have a very good track record and this isnt much of an effort. Ominous at best. Funny, I used a dega setup I used on Hawaii with N4 and modified what, tape, and one other thing but I cant remember, anyway I was still a force using that old N1 setup with N4 so things must not have changed that drastically :) Mitch -- Remove "nospam." to reply. SuSE 9.2 Pro.

I remember it. It just wasn't this bad :) See later posting for more info. -Larry "Bill Bollinger" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:9hUId.20999$[email hidden]...

Quoted text (29 lines)

> That was done with N4 as well :) None of the setups for N4 demo worked > for release game. Most people forget that, or choose not to remember > because it was Papy and this is EA. > > Bill Bollinger > www.gsxn.com > > > "BClay" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... >> >>> >>> Bob Stanley has stated that the demo is quite a few builds behind what >>> he >>> has been working on. So much so that his current setups will not even >>> work >>> in the demo. >> >> Now doesn't this seems kinda dumb to release a demo that will not even be >> the same as the final product? Why should I and so many others spend even >> a minute to get the feel for the game when in fact that the demo doesn't >> even represent the final product? Bad move on EA's part if you ask me. If >> the demo would have been the same as the final game itself then I would >> be looking forward to purchasing it. Now it's the waiting game here to >> see what others have to say about the final release. Been burned before >> from EA on one of their Nascar titles and refuse to get burned again. >> > >

"Bob V" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > I acknowledge that the demo leaves much to be desired, but after reading > some forum posts at http://www.onlineracin.com/forum/tt.asp?forumid=34 by > Bob Stanley and Joe Lomas, and applying some of the tweaks that othershave > posted, I believe there is light at the end of the tunnel. > > I realize there are some here that are going to criticize this effort no > matter what, and that is understandable. You can't please everyone allthe > time. For the rest of us that are some what on the fence hoping for the > next generation of a stock car sim, it sounds like EA can deliver. > > Bob Stanley has stated that the demo is quite a few builds behind what he > has been working on. So much so that his current setups will not evenwork

Quoted text (8 lines)

> in the demo. > > Here's an excerpt from a letter from EA: > > </quote> "As far as the new release date, remember that Tiburon made the > decision to work on NASCAR SimRacing for an additional 2 weeks to continue > tuning the gameplay and AI. Working with our Beta Test team and several > NASCAR drivers, we have received great feedback and wanted to take the

time > to make some additional adjustments that will help make NASCAR SimRacing a > true to like NASCAR Simulation. The game will still be available by > Daytona, shipping from our warehouse of February 15 to retail stores > everywhere. > > In addition to taking an extra 2 weeks to continue tuning NASCARSimRacing, > our commitment will extend far beyond the games ship date. We havedecided

Quoted text (8 lines)

> to keep an internal production and development team focused exclusively on > the sim for many months after the game launch. > > You can pass this along to the community and please make sure that they > understand that EA is truly committed to the sim racing community." > </endquote> > > I personally interpret the last two sentences to mean there will most

likely > be a patch coming some time after the February release, since I'm surethey > want to take advantage of the Daytona week hype for the release. > > Here are some demo tweaks that I have compiled from what others haveposted > that have really improved the playability of the demo. > > Navigate to: EA SPORTS \ NASCAR SimRacing Demo \ Save \ [player name]folder

Quoted text (21 lines)

> \ [player name].plr file > [ DRIVING AIDS ] > > No AI Control="1" // AI never has control over car except autopit and auto > pace lap. (Keeps you from being kicked to external view when stalled on > track) > > Half Rate="0" // 0 = super-high physics rate, 1 = normal > > > > [ SOUND OPTIONS ] > > Maximum Effects="16" // Maximum sound effect playing simultaneously 8-48 > (Improves player's engine sound level. Supposedly fixed in final release) > > > > [ GRAPHIC OPTIONS ] > > Broadcast Overlay="0" // 0 = Off, 1 = On (Stops the broadcast info that

pops

Quoted text (20 lines)

> up on the top of the screen) > > Rearview Backplane Multiplier="5.00000" // Multiplier on the rearview's > viewing distance > > Rearview Mirror Shake="0" // Whether to shake the rearview mirror (0=off, > 1=on) > > Self In Rearview="0" // Whether own car appears in rearview (Huge > improvement to mirror visibility) > > AI max texture size="0" // 0=Off (Default is 512) > > Cockpit Shake On="0" // 1=shake cockpit, 0=off > > > > MISC > > You can take screen shots by hitting the F12 key at anytime during the

race > or replay > > To prevent the EA Sports Movie from running at the start of the sim, go to > the Movies sub-directory and rename eas.bik to oldeas.bik > > Tired of being reminded it's the demo? Go to the Options sub-directoryand > rename gametitle.jpg to oldgametitle.jpg. Create a copy of the load.jpg, > and rename the copy to gametitle.jpg > > I tried the tweaks and it really doesn't improve the sim any. I'm still feeling like I'm skating on ice or something and there is the perspective thing, it is way off. The car feels like it's about 3000 feet wide compared to the track, and other cars look way too small. And the graphics are still crap compared to N2003. bluestringer

On the other hand, I was behind a car on the track and it looked as wide as a Ford Focus. The perspective seems off in a lot of areas. Reminds me of the GIANT pickup truck we saw some of the screenies from Indy, it was so disproportionate in size...

Papy also did it with Hawaii. Those of us doing the closed beta spent months doing setups before it went open beta. They never told us they were going to change the physics at the very last minute. It was for the worse. The original physics were better than the final product. I guess because we had figured out all the tricks they didn't want us having that big a jump on everyone else. "Bill Bollinger" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:9hUId.20999$[email hidden]... > That was done with N4 as well :) None of the setups for N4 demo workedfor > release game. Most people forget that, or choose not to remember becauseit > was Papy and this is EA. > > Bill Bollinger > www.gsxn.com