Re: SoS: The NFSPU of historic Grand Prix sims?

On Tue, 20 Jun 2000 21:44:18 GMT, [email hidden] wrote: > >Anybody else have any thoughts on this, It will be released on the Dreamcast in a couple of weeks for $19.99. http://www.ebworld.com/ebx/categories/products/product.asp?pf_id=182615 I may give it a try on my DC with my Force RS wheel.. :)

Okay, I'm going to go out on a limb here -- I was removing old demos and various junk files from my hard drive over the weekend, and I ran across the Spirit Of Speed demo again. Before deleting it, though, I decided to fire it up again to remind myself of just how bad it truly was. The frame rates were as horrible as I remembered, and the car control only loosely matched my control inputs -- in short, it was as bad as I remembered. But . . . I recalled immediately how much I had wanted to like this game when I downloaded the demo. I'm not really much of an F1 fan, or an historic Grand Prix fan, for that matter -- Indy is my first love, and the old cars in SoS were very reminiscent of the cars that ran at Indy in the same era, and this alone was enough to make me want to like this title. And that Donnington track in the demo seemed so nicely-done -- IF it weren't for those lousy frame rates. So I started fiddling around with the graphics settings, just to see if I could improve the framerate and enhance the playability, recalling how painful GPL is at 14 fps. With all the graphics turned down, things started to feel better -- you CAN hang the tail out, and a four-wheel drift is possible (it may not be as well-done as it is in GPL, but it definitely is do-able, and it does NOT seem canned). With the graphics cranked down so low, the game looked about like an older SVGA game, rather than a modern 3D- accelerated Windows-based game, but things were starting to "feel" better from a driving standpoing. Then I started fiddling with the sound settings, and I discovered that with all sounds turned OFF, the game REALLY sailed along, and things started to feel MUCH better. Yes, at this point I was working with what appeared to be SVGA-quality graphics and no sound, but the driving model was starting to feel gratifying. Still, with no sound, the driving experience definitely suffers, so I turned the sound back on and proceeded to turn some laps and race a couple of races as well, at a somewhat-reduced but marginally-acceptable frame rate. The AI does do some bonehead things occasionally, but overall, the more laps I turned, the more I found the overall experience to be enjoyable and somewhat rewarding. Not as rewarding as GPL, to be sure, but far and away better than something like Test Drive 6 (a TRUE waste of time, which I had deleted from my hard drive earlier that day, after playing around with it for a while to remind myself of just how bad it truly was -- and it was truly bad). Frankly, I'd even say that with the sound and video options cranked back, SoS drove significantly better than NFS3 or NFS:HS, feeling much more like a relaxed sim, rather than an out-and-out arcade racer. Again, it's definitely NOT GPL-calibur, but I gradually realized that the SoS demo reminded me a lot of the latest in the NFS series -- Need For Speed: Porsche Unleashed. Judging by the demo, it occurred to me that SoS might be able to offer the same fun-yet-somewhat realistic driving model, plus the same relaxing, fun, and immersive driving/racing experience that I find with NFSPU. So the main problem with SoS, it seems to me, is that it is a hardware hog, and you can't really scale back graphics details and sound options in an acceptable manner for midrange machines (okay, that, plus the fact that it's NOT GPL <G>). I'm running and AMD K6-2 400 with 64 MB of RAM and a 16 MB Voodoo Banshee card -- this is admittedly a midrange system, but it handles virtually anything I throw at it quite admirably, including F1 2000 (as long as I don't try to race the AI). Even so, SoS brings my system to a virtual halt, but I have a feeling that on a 600 MHz or better PIII or Athlon with more RAM and a more modern video card, SoS might be TRULY enjoyable -- as long as you're not expecting it to be the GPL physics engine applied to the 1937 Grand Prix season. Anybody else have any thoughts on this, or any experience with SoS on a more potent machine? I'm thinking about ordering a copy of SoS so I'll have it on-hand later on, when I move up to a faster machine. So, could SoS be the NFSPU of historic Grand Prix sims, or did I spend a little too much time with Test Drive 6 before deleting it from my hard drive? <G> - JB Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy.

Interesting observations. I'm getting a 733 later this week. I'll load it (back) up and let you know my thoughts. I really never thought the game was that bad, just didn't like the era as much as I thought I would. Maybe I missed something. Nixx Too many sims, too little time. On Tue, 20 Jun 2000 21:44:18 GMT, [email hidden] wrote:

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>Okay, I'm going to go out on a limb here -- I was removing old demos >and various junk files from my hard drive over the weekend, and I ran >across the Spirit Of Speed demo again. Before deleting it, though, I >decided to fire it up again to remind myself of just how bad it truly >was. The frame rates were as horrible as I remembered, and the car >control only loosely matched my control inputs -- in short, it was as >bad as I remembered. >

<SNIP>

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> >Anybody else have any thoughts on this, or any experience with SoS on a >more potent machine? I'm thinking about ordering a copy of SoS so I'll >have it on-hand later on, when I move up to a faster machine. > >So, could SoS be the NFSPU of historic Grand Prix sims, or did I spend >a little too much time with Test Drive 6 before deleting it from my >hard drive? <G> > >- JB > > >Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ >Before you buy.

Steve Garey <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> > As well as the observations already made, I would say there are one or two > other floors in the game. > > Firstly, I can't work out how to restore a saved game. If anyone knows > please tell me (the Readme.txt states it is not implemented!) > > Secondly, the AI are awful. They run into the back of you constantly. > > Thirdly, I cannot believe the amount of grip the cars have in the game. > Think about it, tyre technology was not what it was in 1967, the cars were > heavier (and in some cases more powerful) than those in GPL, and the

weight > distribution not ideal (front engined) and yet I find I can throw theninto > corners without the risk of loosing it like GPL. > Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition.... Stephen

Phil Lee <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> NOBODY expects the Spanish Inquisition! Our chief weapon is > suprise...surprise and fear...fear and surprise.... Our two > weapons are fear and surprise...and ruthless efficiency.... Our > *three* weapons are fear, surprise, and ruthless > efficiency...and an almost fanatical devotion to the Pope.... > Our *four*...no... *Amongst* our weapons.... Amongst our > weaponry...are such elements as fear, surprise.... I'll come in > again >

Good, for a moment I thought it was too subtle. Stephen

I think they should put a tax on people who stand in water. Kurt Steinbock <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:ni245.15821$[email hidden]...

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> Ohhhh, NOOOO! Not the COMFY chair! > > > Stephen Ferguson wrote in message <39508a7f$[email hidden]>... > > > >Steve Garey <[email hidden]> wrote in message > >news:[email hidden]... > >> > >> As well as the observations already made, I would say there are one or > two > >> other floors in the game. > >> > >> Firstly, I can't work out how to restore a saved game. If anyone knows > >> please tell me (the Readme.txt states it is not implemented!) > >> > >> Secondly, the AI are awful. They run into the back of you constantly. > >> > >> Thirdly, I cannot believe the amount of grip the cars have in the game. > >> Think about it, tyre technology was not what it was in 1967, the cars > were > >> heavier (and in some cases more powerful) than those in GPL, and the > >weight > >> distribution not ideal (front engined) and yet I find I can throw then > >into > >> corners without the risk of loosing it like GPL. > >> > > > >Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition.... > > > >Stephen > > > > > > > >

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In article <[email hidden]>, "Steve Garey" <[email hidden]> wrote: > > As well as the observations already made, I would say there are oneor two > other floors in the game. > > Firstly, I can't work out how to restore a saved game. If anyone knows > please tell me (the Readme.txt states it is not implemented!) > > Secondly, the AI are awful. They run into the back of you constantly. <humor> Thankfully, things like that NEVER happen in GPL! ;-) </humor> > Thirdly, I cannot believe the amount of grip the cars have in thegame. > Think about it, tyre technology was not what it was in 1967, the carswere > heavier (and in some cases more powerful) than those in GPL, and theweight > distribution not ideal (front engined) and yet I find I can throwthen into > corners without the risk of loosing it like GPL. > > Shame really, as the tracks are awesome - I love Tripoli andBrooklands is

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> interesting from the historic point of view. > > Definitely a case of "if only" > > Steve > >

Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy.

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] says... > Shame really, as the tracks are awesome - I love Tripoli and Brooklands is > interesting from the historic point of view. Donington and Brooklands are pretty accurate - apart from the fact that the Silver Arrows never raced at Brooklands. Tripoli is definitely not. And Avus had two long straights, not the twisty bends that SoS has! I was really looking forward to SoS, but they blew it big time. The driving and grip model is appalling. - Michael

Thanks for the second look -- I have a comment or two below: In article <%aU35.12064$[email hidden]>, "David Erb" <[email hidden]> wrote: > Ok , I'll take you up on this particularly since I have been playingand > enjoying NFS-PU a lot lately. I just happened to have the SOS demo inan > archive partition so I loaded it up. > Running on a P3-733, 128mg, V3-3000 I would hope that you would have PLENTY of computing power -- and I was sad to hear that you also experienced frame rate problems at 800x600 resolutions. :-( > Installed and configured without much problem apart from not beingable to > get it to recognize seperate brake/throttle pedals. Oddly enough theread me > file contains this line "This race is set in the scenic Frenchcountryside, > accurately reproduced from a track used in 1937. You have 2 laps ofthe > circuit in which to beat the other cars, starting from Pole Positionon the > track." Did not know that Donnington was in France: will someoneinform the > English ? :) Ironically, it's also 4 laps, instead of 2 (and there IS a British flag on the track at one point, too -- odd for a track in "France" <G>). > Tried it first with all details set high and you're right, it reallyhas bad > framerate that is particularly apparent in the hairpin. Hitting theF1 key > several times puts you in the cockpit which really looks quite nice.Editing > the .ini file allows you to use a manual gearbox which really helpsthe > immersion ( just dont try to shift up past 5th gear or you'll crash to > desktop). Donnington in hi rez (800x600) looks wonderful, the scenery > graphics are very nice with things like the farmhouse and trackbridges > particularly nicely done. There is a spacious feel to the track andyou can > go a fair way off the track surface without bouncing off invisiblewalls. > Sound on my MX-400 is so-so either with or without EAX enabled. Thesounds > themselves are Ok with a nice rumble from the Mercedes motor but theydont > really give me good feedback on the state of the car. Tire squeal in > particular is too abrupt in onset to be useful in guagingacceleration out > of a corner. The tire squeal does seem to be a bit abrupt, unfortunately. > Next I scaled back the graphics to the only other option on my demowhich > was something like 512x384 (close but not quite sure), knocked downlevel of > detail to low, mirrors off , etc. Did not try it without sound . Sureenough > the framerate picked up (at the expense of a lot of pixelation :( )and the > car moved through the corners in a much smoother fashion. Still couldspot a > little chugging in the hairpin but certainly not nearly as much as in > 800x600. I still found the car to have a very artifical (anduncomfortable) > feel to it. It drove like it was revolving around a pin that had beenshoved > vertically through the center of the car. This is not the feeling Iget when > I run NFS-PU,even when I'm driving the very earliest Porsches. Thisis where > SOS comes apart for me. Regarding the part about it driving like it's revolving around a pin that has been shoved vertically through the center of the car, I noticed this at first, too, but remember, these are looooong, heavy cars that drove nothing like a 1950 Porsche, or a 1967 Grand Prix machine. Watch a couple of replays and look at the cockpit location and the driver's position in the car -- the in-cockpit view puts you pretty much at the vehicle's center of rotation, I believe. Without having a couple of other cars in the demo to compare to the Mercedes, it's hard to tell if this is actually the case, but I did notice that when I switched to the "nose camera" view, it "felt" like I was driving from the nose of a long, heavy, sluggish vehicle (which I would imagine these cars were, by modern standards, anyway). I drove several races tonight, and the more I drove, the more immersive it became. In addition to reminding me of NFSPU, I found myself reminded also of the "Red Baron" flight sim from Sierra/Dynamix -- partially due to the early 1900 era and hardware (yeah, I know, WW I happened about 20 years before 1937, but it was still the first half of the century), and partly because the physics modeling reminded me a bit of a driving sim version of Red Baron's flight model (i.e., relaxed yet still a fairly accurate simulation of the vehicles being modeled). > If SOS had the driving model of Porsche Unleashed I'd buy it in aheartbeat > . The hardware hoggishness of SoS indicates a game that was rushed tomarket > too early. It appears to be a Beta rather than a finished product.Given > some optimisation of the graphics engine to run a decent framerateand a > NFS-PU it would be dandy sim-lite (arcade-heavy?) way to pleasantlywaste > some time visiting the 1930's. I wish it was a bit closer to the NFSPU end of the spectrum, too, but as it is, I think it might be just a notch or two below the SCGT level, and I would put it WAY above the likes of NFS3, NFSHS, or any of the Test Drive series. Actually, SoS may even come in ahead of Test Drive Le Mans, which seems like it might be something of a credit to the "Test Drive" family (I've had MUCHO problems with the Test Drive Le Mans demo (it only runs when it feels like it on my machine, which has been about once, so far, for about half a lap). > It'll be interesting to see what the Dreamcast crowd thinks of SoS(per > rrevveds post in this thread). Maybe the coding cleanup required forthe > Dreamcast will go a way towards fixing a lot of SoS's troubles. > > One of the more interesting might-have-beens True -- maybe they can take the (hopefully) optimized Dreamcast code and produce a mega-patch for the PC version to address the hardware demands and frame rate problems. THEN maybe SoS would start turning some heads and attracting some attention. -- JB Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy.

Ok , I'll take you up on this particularly since I have been playing and enjoying NFS-PU a lot lately. I just happened to have the SOS demo in an archive partition so I loaded it up. Running on a P3-733, 128mg, V3-3000 Installed and configured without much problem apart from not being able to get it to recognize seperate brake/throttle pedals. Oddly enough the read me file contains this line "This race is set in the scenic French countryside, accurately reproduced from a track used in 1937. You have 2 laps of the circuit in which to beat the other cars, starting from Pole Position on the track." Did not know that Donnington was in France: will someone inform the English ? :) Tried it first with all details set high and you're right, it really has bad framerate that is particularly apparent in the hairpin. Hitting the F1 key several times puts you in the cockpit which really looks quite nice. Editing the .ini file allows you to use a manual gearbox which really helps the immersion ( just dont try to shift up past 5th gear or you'll crash to desktop). Donnington in hi rez (800x600) looks wonderful, the scenery graphics are very nice with things like the farmhouse and track bridges particularly nicely done. There is a spacious feel to the track and you can go a fair way off the track surface without bouncing off invisible walls. Sound on my MX-400 is so-so either with or without EAX enabled. The sounds themselves are Ok with a nice rumble from the Mercedes motor but they dont really give me good feedback on the state of the car. Tire squeal in particular is too abrupt in onset to be useful in guaging acceleration out of a corner. Next I scaled back the graphics to the only other option on my demo which was something like 512x384 (close but not quite sure), knocked down level of detail to low, mirrors off , etc. Did not try it without sound . Sure enough the framerate picked up (at the expense of a lot of pixelation :( ) and the car moved through the corners in a much smoother fashion. Still could spot a little chugging in the hairpin but certainly not nearly as much as in 800x600. I still found the car to have a very artifical (and uncomfortable) feel to it. It drove like it was revolving around a pin that had been shoved vertically through the center of the car. This is not the feeling I get when I run NFS-PU,even when I'm driving the very earliest Porsches. This is where SOS comes apart for me. If SOS had the driving model of Porsche Unleashed I'd buy it in a heartbeat . The hardware hoggishness of SoS indicates a game that was rushed to market too early. It appears to be a Beta rather than a finished product. Given some optimisation of the graphics engine to run a decent framerate and a NFS-PU it would be dandy sim-lite (arcade-heavy?) way to pleasantly waste some time visiting the 1930's. It'll be interesting to see what the Dreamcast crowd thinks of SoS (per rrevveds post in this thread). Maybe the coding cleanup required for the Dreamcast will go a way towards fixing a lot of SoS's troubles. One of the more interesting might-have-beens David <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:8iooje$tsl$[email hidden]...

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> Okay, I'm going to go out on a limb here -- I was removing old demos > and various junk files from my hard drive over the weekend, and I ran > across the Spirit Of Speed demo again. Before deleting it, though, I > decided to fire it up again to remind myself of just how bad it truly > was. The frame rates were as horrible as I remembered, and the car > control only loosely matched my control inputs -- in short, it was as > bad as I remembered. > > But . . . > > I recalled immediately how much I had wanted to like this game when I > downloaded the demo. I'm not really much of an F1 fan, or an historic > Grand Prix fan, for that matter -- Indy is my first love, and the old > cars in SoS were very reminiscent of the cars that ran at Indy in the > same era, and this alone was enough to make me want to like this > title. > > And that Donnington track in the demo seemed so nicely-done -- IF it > weren't for those lousy frame rates. So I started fiddling around with > the graphics settings, just to see if I could improve the framerate and > enhance the playability, recalling how painful GPL is at 14 fps. With > all the graphics turned down, things started to feel better -- you CAN > hang the tail out, and a four-wheel drift is possible (it may not be as > well-done as it is in GPL, but it definitely is do-able, and it does > NOT seem canned). With the graphics cranked down so low, the game > looked about like an older SVGA game, rather than a modern 3D- > accelerated Windows-based game, but things were starting to "feel" > better from a driving standpoing. > > Then I started fiddling with the sound settings, and I discovered that > with all sounds turned OFF, the game REALLY sailed along, and things > started to feel MUCH better. Yes, at this point I was working with > what appeared to be SVGA-quality graphics and no sound, but the driving > model was starting to feel gratifying. Still, with no sound, the > driving experience definitely suffers, so I turned the sound back on > and proceeded to turn some laps and race a couple of races as well, at > a somewhat-reduced but marginally-acceptable frame rate. The AI does > do some bonehead things occasionally, but overall, the more laps I > turned, the more I found the overall experience to be enjoyable and > somewhat rewarding. > > Not as rewarding as GPL, to be sure, but far and away better than > something like Test Drive 6 (a TRUE waste of time, which I had deleted > from my hard drive earlier that day, after playing around with it for a > while to remind myself of just how bad it truly was -- and it was truly > bad). Frankly, I'd even say that with the sound and video options > cranked back, SoS drove significantly better than NFS3 or NFS:HS, > feeling much more like a relaxed sim, rather than an out-and-out arcade > racer. > > Again, it's definitely NOT GPL-calibur, but I gradually realized that > the SoS demo reminded me a lot of the latest in the NFS series -- Need > For Speed: Porsche Unleashed. Judging by the demo, it occurred to me > that SoS might be able to offer the same fun-yet-somewhat realistic > driving model, plus the same relaxing, fun, and immersive > driving/racing experience that I find with NFSPU. > > So the main problem with SoS, it seems to me, is that it is a hardware > hog, and you can't really scale back graphics details and sound options > in an acceptable manner for midrange machines (okay, that, plus the > fact that it's NOT GPL <G>). I'm running and AMD K6-2 400 with 64 MB > of RAM and a 16 MB Voodoo Banshee card -- this is admittedly a midrange > system, but it handles virtually anything I throw at it quite > admirably, including F1 2000 (as long as I don't try to race the AI). > Even so, SoS brings my system to a virtual halt, but I have a feeling > that on a 600 MHz or better PIII or Athlon with more RAM and a more > modern video card, SoS might be TRULY enjoyable -- as long as you're > not expecting it to be the GPL physics engine applied to the 1937 Grand > Prix season. > > Anybody else have any thoughts on this, or any experience with SoS on a > more potent machine? I'm thinking about ordering a copy of SoS so I'll > have it on-hand later on, when I move up to a faster machine. > > So, could SoS be the NFSPU of historic Grand Prix sims, or did I spend > a little too much time with Test Drive 6 before deleting it from my > hard drive? <G> > > - JB > > > Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ > Before you buy.

On Wed, 21 Jun 2000 00:41:31 GMT, "David Erb" <[email hidden]> wrote: >Oddly enough the read me >file contains this line "This race is set in the scenic French countryside, >accurately reproduced from a track used in 1937. You have 2 laps of the >circuit in which to beat the other cars, starting from Pole Position on the >track." Did not know that Donnington was in France: will someone inform the >English ? :) Parallel universe. Napolean won... <g> Regards, Brett C. Cammack That's Racing! Motorsports Pompano Beach, FL

As well as the observations already made, I would say there are one or two other floors in the game. Firstly, I can't work out how to restore a saved game. If anyone knows please tell me (the Readme.txt states it is not implemented!) Secondly, the AI are awful. They run into the back of you constantly. Thirdly, I cannot believe the amount of grip the cars have in the game. Think about it, tyre technology was not what it was in 1967, the cars were heavier (and in some cases more powerful) than those in GPL, and the weight distribution not ideal (front engined) and yet I find I can throw then into corners without the risk of loosing it like GPL. Shame really, as the tracks are awesome - I love Tripoli and Brooklands is interesting from the historic point of view. Definitely a case of "if only" Steve

NOBODY expects the Spanish Inquisition! Our chief weapon is suprise...surprise and fear...fear and surprise.... Our two weapons are fear and surprise...and ruthless efficiency.... Our *three* weapons are fear, surprise, and ruthless efficiency...and an almost fanatical devotion to the Pope.... Our *four*...no... *Amongst* our weapons.... Amongst our weaponry...are such elements as fear, surprise.... I'll come in again Got questions? Get answers over the phone at Keen.com. Up to 100 minutes free! http://www.keen.com

Phil Lee <[email hidden]> writes:

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> NOBODY expects the Spanish Inquisition! Our chief weapon is > suprise...surprise and fear...fear and surprise.... Our two > weapons are fear and surprise...and ruthless efficiency.... Our > *three* weapons are fear, surprise, and ruthless > efficiency...and an almost fanatical devotion to the Pope.... > Our *four*...no... *Amongst* our weapons.... Amongst our > weaponry...are such elements as fear, surprise.... I'll come in > again

With all the poetic creativity on this group, can anyone write this great piece of joke into a GPL context ? -- Olav K. Malmin remove spam when replying

Ohhhh, NOOOO! Not the COMFY chair! Stephen Ferguson wrote in message <39508a7f$[email hidden]>... > >Steve Garey <[email hidden]> wrote in message >news:[email hidden]... >> >> As well as the observations already made, I would say there are one ortwo

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>> other floors in the game. >> >> Firstly, I can't work out how to restore a saved game. If anyone knows >> please tell me (the Readme.txt states it is not implemented!) >> >> Secondly, the AI are awful. They run into the back of you constantly. >> >> Thirdly, I cannot believe the amount of grip the cars have in the game. >> Think about it, tyre technology was not what it was in 1967, the cars

were

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>> heavier (and in some cases more powerful) than those in GPL, and the >weight >> distribution not ideal (front engined) and yet I find I can throw then >into >> corners without the risk of loosing it like GPL. >> > >Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition.... > >Stephen > > >

Phil Bergman lives!!!! <g> Regards, Brett C. Cammack That's Racing! Motorsports Pompano Beach, FL

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> > Regarding the part about it driving like it's revolving around a pin > that has been shoved vertically through the center of the car, I > noticed this at first, too, but remember, these are looooong, heavy > cars that drove nothing like a 1950 Porsche, or a 1967 Grand Prix > machine. Watch a couple of replays and look at the cockpit location > and the driver's position in the car -- the in-cockpit view puts you > pretty much at the vehicle's center of rotation, I believe. Without > having a couple of other cars in the demo to compare to the Mercedes, > it's hard to tell if this is actually the case, but I did notice that > when I switched to the "nose camera" view, it "felt" like I was driving > from the nose of a long, heavy, sluggish vehicle (which I would imagine > these cars were, by modern standards, anyway). I drove several races > tonight, and the more I drove, the more immersive it became. In > addition to reminding me of NFSPU, I found myself reminded also of > the "Red Baron" flight sim from Sierra/Dynamix -- partially due to the > early 1900 era and hardware (yeah, I know, WW I happened about 20 years > before 1937, but it was still the first half of the century), and > partly because the physics modeling reminded me a bit of a driving sim > version of Red Baron's flight model (i.e., relaxed yet still a fairly > accurate simulation of the vehicles being modeled).

I have no idea why people think these cars were heavy, sluggish, and slow. Indeed, in 1973 L.J.K. Setright was able to write " this car mustered more power than any Grand Prix car, before or since." Grand Prix cars didn't surpass the power of the 1937 Mercedes W125 until a good chunk into the turbo era, and, again, only in the turbo era did Grand Prix cars reach the level of technical development and sophistication and raw performance potential that the German cars had just before WWII. The 1937 cars were built to the 750kg formula. This required the cars to weigh LESS than 750 kg. That means they weighed hundreds of pounds LESS than my Honda CRX, which in turn weighs hundreds of pounds less than my Mazda Miata. Not exactly two cars that are generally described as "heavy and sluggish." The Grand Prix car had about 6 times the power of either of these cars though. With a load of fuel sufficient to last for hours the W125 STILL weighs less than my Miata, by hundreds of pounds. Much of the visible bulk of the car is "empty space." The formula imposed a minimum body width much greater than that of the previous years, and so Mercedes and Auto Union put large envelopes on much smaller cars. Very much like the body on a competition R/C car. The suspensions were quite sophisticated as well, they had to be to handle all that power on the tires of the time. It is only in the tire department that these cars are inferior to the '67 cars of GPL. Tires of the time were not just narrower but essentially tubular in cross section giving a small, oval contact patch. Thus the cars were far "slidier" than the 1967 cars. The W154, which is the car you are given to drive in the demo, for some reason, was actually the 1938 car, made to a formula which raised the weight, and imposed an engine size limit, ( the '37 formula allowed ANY size engine), and STILL weighed just about the same as my Honda CRX dry and about the same as my Miata with full tanks. To compare it to a more modern car it had nearly the same weight and power as the 1970 Porsche 917K. This is somewhat heavier, but more powerful than, a 1967 Grand Prix car. They didn't even give up much in the area of aerodynamics either. The cars had a greater frontal area, but that was imposed by the formula, not the ability of the designers to design the SAME cars in much slimer form. The cx of the Auto Union, less the wheels was *.032!* The body was so slick that 90% of the drag came from the wheels alone. The only place the makers of these cars lacked aerodynamic sophistication was in that they believed that holding the tires close to the body reduced drag, whereas we now know exactly the opposite is true. Now, as for SoS, the reason the cockpit view seems to be in the middle of the chassis is because the handling *is* based on a pin stuck through the center of the car. The actual seating position in this car is very nearly between the rear wheels. Go find a small four door sedan. Say a Honda Civic. Now, sit in the *back* seat. That's about the driving position in these cars. The authors of SoS had to make the apparent driving position at the center of the car to mask, at least somewhat, the crude model of the program. The grip model is, of course, totally bogus. Nowhere near NFSPU, which I'm already on record as calling "ok." The sound stinks. Perhaps you need to know what the real cars sound like to realize this, but it stinks none the less. Remeber, these were engines producing over 600 hp, unmuffled! They wouldn't have done too badly to rip off the Brabham sound from GPL. Not exactly right, but not bad. Stir in a bit of the Ferrari and you might have it. There is no AI at all. None. The computer "driven" cars run on a set track, like a train. They don't even have the artificial idiocy level to not run straight into something in front of them, like YOU. They will simply pound on the back of your car until you either move over or they push you off. And lastly, the very first time I fired it up, before I had so much as touched a control, I could tell this title was going to be, at best, mediocre. What's with the cars having the ride height of a tractor? These cars rode as low as a 1967 Grand Prix car. Oh yeah, and why didn't the cars comprise the cars of the 1937 season, instead of a few scattered cars from the 1924 to 1938 season? There are some impressive graphics in this title, and the 1937 season is my favorite and the one I hoped that Papyrus was going to do, but SoS is a stinker, surpassing even AMA Superbike for the worst sim of the year award. It isn't even a good arcade game. Broadsword don't even have the excuse of rushed development to fall back on. Many of the problems were pointed out to them prior to release and their response to these complaints, ( some of which you can find in a faq at their web site), make it clear that this title came out exactly as the designers intended. Shame on them.

In article <nl545.23731$[email hidden]>, [email hidden] says... <excellent post snipped> You really know your stuff - it's my favourite racing period also. I think the best way of getting this done would be a TC for GPL with new cars and tracks. I'm sure the existing physics code could handle it easily with different parameters for the cars. I'd do it, but I have a full-time job:-) Maybe when I retire. - Michael