Re: GPL Direct3D Rasterizer

Why, i thought only a few of us bought GPL ;-) At least so i was told. Borut

The 5.22 drivers gave you that problem in OPENGL mode. This is Direct3D and is completely different. ...Colin Alastair Ingram <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:VSP45.15748$[email hidden]... > Has anyone tried this patch with the 2.08 drivers? I am reluctant toinstall > this patch because the 5.22 drivers give me the quarter screen thing! > Thanks.

I agree, and even the "leaked" 5.30 might not be as stable as 5.22. I experienced surges in frame rate with 5.30 while 5.22 is smooth at 31 to 33 fps @ 1600x1200. :) Kyle Eric Busch wrote:

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> With this release there's really no reason to stick with the older > drivers, but the 5.22 or later drivers should only be needed if you > are running one of the earlier 5.xx versions. > > Eric/Papyrus > > "Alastair Ingram" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:VSP45.15748$[email hidden]... > > Has anyone tried this patch with the 2.08 drivers? I am reluctant to > install > > this patch because the 5.22 drivers give me the quarter screen > thing!

WooHoo!!!! At last an end to the OpenGL hell! Eric Busch <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:8j0bkp$kiv$[email hidden]...

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> An unsupported BETA Direct3D Rasterizer is now available for GPL on > the Papy website: www.papy.com Please read the included readmeD3D.txt > for details. Users with NVidia cards should find the performance to > be much improved over the OpenGL patch, though you will need to > upgrade to at least the 5.22 reference Detonator2 drivers. DirectX7 > is also required. > > Eric/Papyrus > > >

P.S. If someone mamages to download it, please put it on another website so we can all get it... www.papy.com is not very cooperative right now =( Eric Busch <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:8j0bkp$kiv$[email hidden]...

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> An unsupported BETA Direct3D Rasterizer is now available for GPL on > the Papy website: www.papy.com Please read the included readmeD3D.txt > for details. Users with NVidia cards should find the performance to > be much improved over the OpenGL patch, though you will need to > upgrade to at least the 5.22 reference Detonator2 drivers. DirectX7 > is also required. > > Eric/Papyrus > > >

WooHoo!!!! At last an end to the OpenGL hell!

WHS messages are awful, but...er, WHS!

An unsupported BETA Direct3D Rasterizer is now available for GPL on the Papy website: www.papy.com Please read the included readmeD3D.txt for details. Users with NVidia cards should find the performance to be much improved over the OpenGL patch, though you will need to upgrade to at least the 5.22 reference Detonator2 drivers. DirectX7 is also required. Eric/Papyrus

And watch as Papy's web page grinds to a halt as a few thousand raving lunatics hit it at once :)

On behalf of all of us at Papyrus, I'd like to thank engineer Grant Reeve for making this D3D rasterizer happen. He did this work in his spare time, and his efforts represent yet another example of the extraordinary level of passion that exists within the GPL community. Rich Yasi Senior Designer Papyrus Design Group

What a remarkable difference.....excellent patch gentlemen.. "Eric Busch" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:8j0bkp$kiv$[email hidden]...

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> An unsupported BETA Direct3D Rasterizer is now available for GPL on > the Papy website: www.papy.com Please read the included readmeD3D.txt > for details. Users with NVidia cards should find the performance to > be much improved over the OpenGL patch, though you will need to > upgrade to at least the 5.22 reference Detonator2 drivers. DirectX7 > is also required. > > Eric/Papyrus > > >

On Fri, 23 Jun 2000 15:20:28 -0400, "Rich Yasi" <[email hidden]> wrote: >On behalf of all of us at Papyrus, I'd like to thank engineer Grant Reeve >for making this D3D rasterizer happen. He did this work in his spare time, >and his efforts represent yet another example of the extraordinary level of >passion that exists within the GPL community. I owe you all another beer. <g> Another huge thank you!!! Regards, Brett C. Cammack That's Racing! Motorsports Pompano Beach, FL

Thank God, now we can truly put the "I just bought a TNT thread to rest..." To Grant Reeve, I say thanks. Eric and Rich and all the rest of you...keep up the Good(CART) Work! -- dave henrie Team Backmarker #55b Dodge Stratus Super Touring Car TPTCC "Eric Busch" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:8j0bkp$kiv$[email hidden]... > An unsupported BETA Direct3D Rasterizer is now available for GPL on > the Papy website: www.papy.com Please read the included readmeD3D.txt > for details. Users with NVidia cards should find the performance to > be much improved over the OpenGL patch, though you will need to > upgrade to at least the 5.22 reference Detonator2 drivers. DirectX7 > is also required. > > Eric/Papyrus > > >

GP-Legends ONLINE now also has it up: http://www.sportplanet.com/gpl/ Colin <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:8j0dbk$h78$[email hidden]... > P.S. If someone mamages to download it, please put it on another websiteso

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> we can all get it... > www.papy.com is not very cooperative right now =( > > Eric Busch <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:8j0bkp$kiv$[email hidden]... > > An unsupported BETA Direct3D Rasterizer is now available for GPL on > > the Papy website: www.papy.com Please read the included readmeD3D.txt > > for details. Users with NVidia cards should find the performance to > > be much improved over the OpenGL patch, though you will need to > > upgrade to at least the 5.22 reference Detonator2 drivers. DirectX7 > > is also required. > > > > Eric/Papyrus > > > > > > > >

Has anyone tried this patch with the 2.08 drivers? I am reluctant to install this patch because the 5.22 drivers give me the quarter screen thing! Thanks. "Eric Busch" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:8j0bkp$kiv$[email hidden]...

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> An unsupported BETA Direct3D Rasterizer is now available for GPL on > the Papy website: www.papy.com Please read the included readmeD3D.txt > for details. Users with NVidia cards should find the performance to > be much improved over the OpenGL patch, though you will need to > upgrade to at least the 5.22 reference Detonator2 drivers. DirectX7 > is also required. > > Eric/Papyrus > > >

With this release there's really no reason to stick with the older drivers, but the 5.22 or later drivers should only be needed if you are running one of the earlier 5.xx versions. Eric/Papyrus "Alastair Ingram" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:VSP45.15748$[email hidden]... > Has anyone tried this patch with the 2.08 drivers? I am reluctant toinstall > this patch because the 5.22 drivers give me the quarter screenthing!

Thanks Colin and Eric. I have installed the patch and all is cool except my mirrors are weird. They have a funny texture on them. Do I need to take out the open Gl part of my core.ini file? What should the settings be in the new patch? Thanks again. "Alastair Ingram" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:VSP45.15748$[email hidden]... > Has anyone tried this patch with the 2.08 drivers? I am reluctant toinstall

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> this patch because the 5.22 drivers give me the quarter screen thing! > Thanks. > "Eric Busch" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:8j0bkp$kiv$[email hidden]... > > An unsupported BETA Direct3D Rasterizer is now available for GPL on > > the Papy website: www.papy.com Please read the included readmeD3D.txt > > for details. Users with NVidia cards should find the performance to > > be much improved over the OpenGL patch, though you will need to > > upgrade to at least the 5.22 reference Detonator2 drivers. DirectX7 > > is also required. > > > > Eric/Papyrus > > > > > > > >

The D3D lines should be in addition to the OpenGL stuff, so since you already have an [Int Profile Values] section from the OpenGL patch you can add the seven Direct3D7 lines (value3 - value9). You may need to play with the Direct3D7 core.ini mirror settings if your card/driver/etc. doesn't work properly with the default values. Eric "Alastair Ingram" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:zeQ45.15770$[email hidden]... > Thanks Colin and Eric. I have installed the patch and all is coolexcept my > mirrors are weird. They have a funny texture on them. Do I need totake out > the open Gl part of my core.ini file? What should the settings be inthe new > patch? Thanks again.

> unsupported BETA Direct3D Rasterizer On a V3 I've found this really slows down at the race start and corner...but only at 1280x960. At 1024x768 it's solid 36 on my preferred settings except for a small dip at the start. Why bother, you ask? The mirrors! Those higher res mirrors are *excellent*. Andrew McP

> I'd like to thank engineer Grant Reeve WHS messages are awful, but...er, WHS!

Unbelievable!!! I installed the 5.22 drivers and wow! This is GREAT! On my P2400, V770U, 160 Ram, I get 36 fps! With full mirrors. At 1156x___ It's going to take a while to get used to seeing everything in the mirrors. Great work! Thank you Papy! "Alastair Ingram" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:zeQ45.15770$[email hidden]... > Thanks Colin and Eric. I have installed the patch and all is cool exceptmy > mirrors are weird. They have a funny texture on them. Do I need to takeout > the open Gl part of my core.ini file? What should the settings be in thenew

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> patch? Thanks again. > "Alastair Ingram" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:VSP45.15748$[email hidden]... > > Has anyone tried this patch with the 2.08 drivers? I am reluctant to > install > > this patch because the 5.22 drivers give me the quarter screen thing! > > Thanks. > > "Eric Busch" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:8j0bkp$kiv$[email hidden]... > > > An unsupported BETA Direct3D Rasterizer is now available for GPL on > > > the Papy website: www.papy.com Please read the included readmeD3D.txt > > > for details. Users with NVidia cards should find the performance to > > > be much improved over the OpenGL patch, though you will need to > > > upgrade to at least the 5.22 reference Detonator2 drivers. DirectX7 > > > is also required. > > > > > > Eric/Papyrus > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

Is this patch worth putting in if one runs a V3 card? Any info would be appreciated. DC "Eric Busch" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:8j0bkp$kiv$[email hidden]...

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> An unsupported BETA Direct3D Rasterizer is now available for GPL on > the Papy website: www.papy.com Please read the included readmeD3D.txt > for details. Users with NVidia cards should find the performance to > be much improved over the OpenGL patch, though you will need to > upgrade to at least the 5.22 reference Detonator2 drivers. DirectX7 > is also required. > > Eric/Papyrus > > >

On Fri, 23 Jun 2000 20:36:05 GMT, "Alastair Ingram" <[email hidden]> thus spoke: >Has anyone tried this patch with the 2.08 drivers? I am reluctant to install >this patch because the 5.22 drivers give me the quarter screen thing! >Thanks. That's not a problem with the D3D patch. And it's not problem with OpenGL either if you use nvOpenGL 3.37. But, the D3D patch is excellent so kiss OpenGL goodbye. -- Nos

NOMAIL wrote in <[email hidden]>: >On Fri, 23 Jun 2000 20:36:05 GMT, "Alastair Ingram" ><[email hidden]> thus spoke: > >>Has anyone tried this patch with the 2.08 drivers? I am reluctant >>to install this patch because the 5.22 drivers give me the quarter >>screen thing! Thanks. I tried it with the 2.08 drivers and there was a HUGE improvment everywhere, except the mirrors were totally distorted. I switched to the 5.22 drivers and now everything is WONDERFUL !!!! What a GREAT GIFT this is! Seeing those fully textured cars in my mirrors is fantastic, the frame rate boost is unbelievable. A great big Thank You to Grant Reeve and everyone at Papy. -- Don Scurlock Vancouver,B.C. GPLRank -1.90 Come see how you rate, at the GPLRank site http://newgplrank.schuerkamp.de/

Many many thanks Grant Reeve and Papyrus. Excellent!! The game flies on my GF2. "Rich Yasi" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:8j0d7e$lc9$[email hidden]... > On behalf of all of us at Papyrus, I'd like to thank engineer GrantReeve > for making this D3D rasterizer happen. He did this work in hisspare time, > and his efforts represent yet another example of the extraordinarylevel of

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> passion that exists within the GPL community. > > Rich Yasi > Senior Designer > Papyrus Design Group > > > >

ok! got it done. its on my page http://members.xoom.com/l_wee/ there's only one link, juz click on it./wl Colin <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:8j0dbk$h78$[email hidden]... > P.S. If someone mamages to download it, please put it on another websiteso

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> we can all get it... > www.papy.com is not very cooperative right now =( > > Eric Busch <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:8j0bkp$kiv$[email hidden]... > > An unsupported BETA Direct3D Rasterizer is now available for GPL on > > the Papy website: www.papy.com Please read the included readmeD3D.txt > > for details. Users with NVidia cards should find the performance to > > be much improved over the OpenGL patch, though you will need to > > upgrade to at least the 5.22 reference Detonator2 drivers. DirectX7 > > is also required. > > > > Eric/Papyrus > > > > > > > >

super awesome although the lod bias is kinda screwy in d3d on the v5 and you can see a definite line where they change. I suspect this will be fixable when 3dfx fixes their d3d drivers to include a lodbias setting. I just love the fact that people at papy (even on their spare time) are working on GPL still. Christian H> In article <[email hidden]>, Eric Cote <[email hidden]> wrote: > HATS OFF to Grant Reeve, not only he fixed problems for the Nvidiacards

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> users but he also fixed the bug afflicting 2X FSAA with the Glide > Rasterizer for the V5 5500. > > Just compiled a small report about it at > > http://www.simracingmag.com > > Eric > > :-) > > Eric Busch wrote: > > > An unsupported BETA Direct3D Rasterizer is now available for GPL on > > the Papy website: www.papy.com Please read the included

readmeD3D.txt

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> > for details. Users with NVidia cards should find the performance to > > be much improved over the OpenGL patch, though you will need to > > upgrade to at least the 5.22 reference Detonator2 drivers. DirectX7 > > is also required. > > > > Eric/Papyrus > >

Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy.

This was truly a very nice surprise! Thanks a lot to everyone involved in creating the renderer. Thank you. cheers, ---- Alexander Marx

Everything's great, except I noticed some "tearing", especially when driving around Monaco. Didn't happen in OpenGL. TNT2, Detonator 3.77, Athlon 700, 1024x768, full detail, trilinear, all mirror options on. Turning off vsync helped, but I'd rather not have to change this. Any other suggestions?

Sorry, I meant, turning ON vsync helped. A little. But there's probably a hit in framerates, right?

Krakus wrote: > > Sorry, I meant, turning ON vsync helped. A little. But there's probably a > hit in framerates, right? Yep. Got your card overclocked? -- Chuck Kandler GPL F1 Handicap of +210.00 as of 6/15 GPL F3 Handicap of +438.42 as of 6/21 K&S Racing http://www.fortunecity.com/silverstone/thepits/195 Registered Linux User #180746 http://counter.li.org

I would like to thank Grant Reeve also. Not only does this increase frame rate it also solves, apparently, the most exasperating lock up problem I've been experiencing lately. Just ran a 12 lap novice race with repeated re-starts :-) and didn't lock up once. Also didn't get any pauses like I did with openGL. Thank You Very Much. Looks like y'all will not have to put up with my "GPL: Lock Ups HELP!" messages anymore. :-) Steve-S On Fri, 23 Jun 2000 15:20:28 -0400, "Rich Yasi" <[email hidden]> wrote:

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>On behalf of all of us at Papyrus, I'd like to thank engineer Grant Reeve >for making this D3D rasterizer happen. He did this work in his spare time, >and his efforts represent yet another example of the extraordinary level of >passion that exists within the GPL community. > >Rich Yasi >Senior Designer >Papyrus Design Group > > >

Eric Busch <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:8j0bkp$kiv$[email hidden]...

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> An unsupported BETA Direct3D Rasterizer is now available for GPL on > the Papy website: www.papy.com Please read the included readmeD3D.txt > for details. Users with NVidia cards should find the performance to > be much improved over the OpenGL patch, though you will need to > upgrade to at least the 5.22 reference Detonator2 drivers. DirectX7 > is also required. > > Eric/Papyrus

Thanks for the work. Keep it up. You're continued support for GPL is much appreciated. Even on my V3 2000 I get a much steadier framerate and I Iove those mirrors. Now if one of your colleagues could just go out and buy an Act Labs Force RS and Shifter and implement the shifter function in GPL I would die a happy man :) Cheers Phil -- GPL Rank: +66.44 secs http://www.youpies.co.uk

Phil Lee <[email hidden]> wrote > You're continued support for GPL is much appreciated. Doh! Should have been your Phil

HATS OFF to Grant Reeve, not only he fixed problems for the Nvidia cards users but he also fixed the bug afflicting 2X FSAA with the Glide Rasterizer for the V5 5500. Just compiled a small report about it at http://www.simracingmag.com Eric :-) Eric Busch wrote:

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> An unsupported BETA Direct3D Rasterizer is now available for GPL on > the Papy website: www.papy.com Please read the included readmeD3D.txt > for details. Users with NVidia cards should find the performance to > be much improved over the OpenGL patch, though you will need to > upgrade to at least the 5.22 reference Detonator2 drivers. DirectX7 > is also required. > > Eric/Papyrus

Doh! Should have been your Phil

replies below I didn't say D3D didn't exist, but it was a definiate time of uncertanty for 3D API's a lot of games made the same gamble they did. It wasn't lack of support, which is what we're talking about here. Papy choose glide and rendition (which was to support all the people who bought thier prvious rendition games) They may not have even known that D3D would work better than OGL for this game. It's not like OGL is so much more terrible than D3D in say Homewoerld, I can't tell the differance. So your supposed to put full developer resources into making the D3D rast? I'm sure this has been worked on for awhile, and is now coming out. They didn't just throw it together over the weekend. that's sales figures, that's nice that Papy is still supporting the 1% of folks who bought thioer game 2 years later. Thanks for makinbg my point. I remember them saying the current technology wasn't good enough for GPL, that's fine. and MTM2 isn't exacly a sim, it's more like fun force feedback than totally real. They were alsop very concerned about delay. They were concerned about quality of product. It's a good thing they didn't listen to you and throw in every half ass technology, it wouldn't have been as good of a game. Those games have less participants and less CPU load. The main reason GPL dumps is because the CPU gets bogged down by the physics model. seen any NTN2 or CPR patches lately? Your throwing a new sim at each question trying to compete with GPL here, I'm noy a big fan of GPL, but I have to say... Yeah, why give people a free patch, when you can get forty more bucks out of ya? I like that customer relatrions, esspesially since I'm made out of money. Making people pay for patches is a big problem. As for F12k, it was a rehash of SCGT, with patches that should ahve been in SCGT. You wanna talk about stuff you shjould have gotten when you bought it? How about internet play that worlks as promised? Downloadable cars of the net? Headlights that work. A damage model. But why put out a patch, when you can sell a new game with 1 new car put FIA on it and make somre real cash! There's the critisizm. really, based on refeances to the past, and curent comments, you seem pretty bent out of shape to me. GPL really does do the best at simulation the physics of a real car on the market. Those of us who really want to drive a simulator just aren't going to drive games drom developers who think they need to dumb down the physics for us. They are here fir the rec,.autos.SIMULATORS... I don't think that on the basis of physics that there is much dispute there. Obviously your feeling are deep seeded, because recently, NFS:PU was given a lot of undisputed credit, without much of the GPL comparisons.

Dave Henrie wrote: > > Thank God, now we can truly put the "I just bought a TNT thread to > rest..." > To Grant Reeve, I say thanks. Eric and Rich and all the > rest of you...keep up the Good(CART) Work! LOL, and I can change one of the answers on the upcoming FAQ Q. How do I get GPL to work on my (insert NVidia based card here) ? A: DL the D3D path from Papy.........:-) WTG guys, and to Grant in particular, THANKS !!! Beers and cheers (uncle) Goy "Team Mirage" http://www.teammirage.com/ "The Pits" http://www.theuspits.com/ * Spam is for losers who can't get business any other way * "Spamkiller" http://www.spamkiller.com

You guys are the gods of racing sims. Thanks for releasing this two days before I was scheduled to pick up my V5 :) ...a compromise decision because I refused to debilitate my GPL no matter what other qualities were available in other cards. Now I can reconsider and have a much wider choice of hardware. I hope people using F12000 beta retail (and all of the other unfinished sims out there) likely-never-to-be-patched remember this and the disco patch and the FFB patch and all the other passionate work that comes out of your shop. The best, most polished sims at release date...and they just keep getting better with age (and a lot of amazing work from you and from the dedicated and talented fans who do the add-ons). Bravo! Marc. "Eric Busch" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:8j0bkp$kiv$[email hidden]...

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> An unsupported BETA Direct3D Rasterizer is now available for GPL on > the Papy website: www.papy.com Please read the included readmeD3D.txt > for details. Users with NVidia cards should find the performance to > be much improved over the OpenGL patch, though you will need to > upgrade to at least the 5.22 reference Detonator2 drivers. DirectX7 > is also required. > > Eric/Papyrus > > >

"Marc Collins" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:SA355.142657$[email hidden]... > I hope people using F12000 beta retail (and all of the other unfinishedsims > out there) likely-never-to-be-patched remember this You know Marc, this is just the type of post which causes people like me to dismiss the GPL crowd. I'm supposed to learn something from the release of this D3D patch? The game should of been released with D3D TWO YEARS ago. It should of had ff two years ago. A patch to fix the disco's shouldn't have taken two years. Since most of the GPL fan club members insisted I was an a**hole for insisting there even was a disco problem, I'm amazed that a patch was needed. I thought I was absolutely, positively, wrong about GPL disconnects? Add up all those hours people like me had to deal with those missing ingredients, and give them back to us, and then I'll be grateful to Papyrus. There will be a new F12000 within a year (not two). MF released a number of patches soon after the release of RC2000 (and was criticized by the GPL crowd for doing so). Other developers support their products too. BTW, this post IS NOT a criticism of the actual people who made the patches and the game, it is a criticism of the people who decided these patches had to be made in someone's spare time, and caused the long delay. David G Fisher >and the disco patch and > the FFB patch and all the other passionate work that comes out of yourshop.

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> The best, most polished sims at release date...and they just keep getting > better with age (and a lot of amazing work from you and from the dedicated > and talented fans who do the add-ons). > > Bravo! > > Marc.

Let me reply to some of your points below... keeping in mind once again that I don't own GPL, so I'm rather unbiased. > > I hope people using F12000 beta retail (and all of the other >>unfinished sims out there) likely-never-to-be-patched remember >>this > You know Marc, this is just the type of post which causes people like meto dismiss the GPL crowd. > I'm supposed to learn something from the release of this D3D >patch? (and so on and so forth about the force feedback and disco's which can be read below) When GPL came out with Glide support glide was almost becoming and insudtry standard like the Sound Blaster cards, and everything else out there was rendition. Shortly after release, and out of papy's hands, rebdition fell off the face of the earth, and Microsoft made thier standard, well standard. During this papy saw that may users were being left out and made a choice about a year after relase of the game to put out a OpenGL patch, this really didn't work out that well, but ayt least they were supporting everyone now. Now it's 2 years later and they've put out a D3D patch, so that there is greater support for current graphics cards. As for force feedback, they waioted because they didn't think the current force feedback was quite ready, untill about a year later they got it tuned out, this si a wuakity of product issue. The Disco patch? 2 years ago... Do you realise that multiplayer programing and coding continues to get better, therefore the knowledge for this patch wasn't really out there 2 years ago, now that they'[ve had more experince, espesially with N4, they've put out a patch for free so that we can better enjoy thier game. People could still be right in saying that there isn't a disco problem in GPL, but the patch was nice... 1. It dosn't happen to them, but it's a problem for others with lesser connections. 2. It's not really a problem so to speak, but it does happen on occasion, so it's nice to see it get fixed up. You really think that EA sports is going to continue to support say SCGT with new graphics drivers and nrew technology support down the road as papy has done? Heck the patch ISI put out wasn't even put up on EA's site for quite awhile after its release. In your thinking, there is a flaw in the slaw. You've built up so much aingst against the GPL crowd that if at any point someone praised GPL over some other game fore whatever reason ture or flase, you just jump all over it. Lets face it there is a a lot of truth being said by the supporters of GPL, it's is the most accurate sim out there. > The game should of been released with D3D TWO YEARS ago. > > It should of had ff two years ago. > > A patch to fix the disco's shouldn't have taken two years. Since most ofthe > GPL fan club members insisted I was an a**hole for insisting there evenwas > a disco problem, I'm amazed that a patch was needed. I thought I was > absolutely, positively, wrong about GPL disconnects? > > Add up all those hours people like me had to deal with those missing > ingredients, and give them back to us, and then I'll be grateful toPapyrus. > > There will be a new F12000 within a year (not two). MF released a numberof > patches soon after the release of RC2000 (and was criticized by the GPL > crowd for doing so). Other developers support their products too. > > BTW, this post IS NOT a criticism of the actual people who made thepatches > and the game, it is a criticism of the people who decided these patcheshad

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> to be made in someone's spare time, and caused the long delay. > > David G Fisher > > >and the disco patch and > > the FFB patch and all the other passionate work that comes out of your > shop. > > The best, most polished sims at release date...and they just keep

getting > > better with age (and a lot of amazing work from you and from thededicated

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> > and talented fans who do the add-ons). > > > > Bravo! > > > > Marc. > >

F1 2000 is an embarrassment that needs to be patched officially for a variety of reasons. I am not interested in buying F1 2001 to get what I should have had in 2000. This is completely different than adding features and support that were not supposed to be in the original version (and not advertised), but that enhance the product. RC2000 is another embarrassment. I worked with MF on the original RAC RC (it had no analogue controller support and I insisted that it should have it and tested it for them) and have stated that although they release a lot of patches for their products, at least they patch!! RC 2000, however, is a joke--a non-existent damage model in a rally title??? It was clear from the beginning that the lack of damage was due to inadequate or non-existent programming for a realistic damage model...and they should have just admitted that. It is strange, though, that with so much attention to detail in some areas, that another (damage) could be completely botched/overlooked. You can dismiss the "GPL crowd" (not that I have ever fit into a crowd very well) if you want. GPL is the only sim available to have anything resembling real world physics and it produced by the only (racing sim) company that I know of that continues to support it's products long after the sales curve has dropped into the darkness. GPL has a few flaws that are annoying, but since it is in a class of one (hopefully soon to be joined by many more), it will continue to have a fanatical following amongst the type of people who frequent r.a.s. Marc. "David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:%G655.18436$A%[email hidden]...

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> > "Marc Collins" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:SA355.142657$[email hidden]... > > I hope people using F12000 beta retail (and all of the other unfinished > sims > > out there) likely-never-to-be-patched remember this > > You know Marc, this is just the type of post which causes people like me

to

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> dismiss the GPL crowd. > > I'm supposed to learn something from the release of this D3D patch? > > The game should of been released with D3D TWO YEARS ago. > > It should of had ff two years ago. > > A patch to fix the disco's shouldn't have taken two years. Since most of

the > GPL fan club members insisted I was an a**hole for insisting there evenwas > a disco problem, I'm amazed that a patch was needed. I thought I was > absolutely, positively, wrong about GPL disconnects? > > Add up all those hours people like me had to deal with those missing > ingredients, and give them back to us, and then I'll be grateful toPapyrus. > > There will be a new F12000 within a year (not two). MF released a numberof > patches soon after the release of RC2000 (and was criticized by the GPL > crowd for doing so). Other developers support their products too. > > BTW, this post IS NOT a criticism of the actual people who made thepatches > and the game, it is a criticism of the people who decided these patcheshad

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> to be made in someone's spare time, and caused the long delay. > > David G Fisher > > >and the disco patch and > > the FFB patch and all the other passionate work that comes out of your > shop. > > The best, most polished sims at release date...and they just keep

getting > > better with age (and a lot of amazing work from you and from thededicated

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> > and talented fans who do the add-ons). > > > > Bravo! > > > > Marc. > >

"Kai Fuller" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:1x955.221410$[email hidden]... > Let me reply to some of your points below... keeping in mind once againthat

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> I don't own GPL, so I'm rather unbiased. > > > > I hope people using F12000 beta retail (and all of the other > >>unfinished sims out there) likely-never-to-be-patched remember >>this > > > You know Marc, this is just the type of post which causes people like me > to dismiss the GPL crowd. > > I'm supposed to learn something from the release of this D3D >patch? > (and so on and so forth about the force feedback and disco's which can be > read below) > > When GPL came out with Glide support glide was almost becoming and

insudtry > standard like the Sound Blaster cards, and everything else out there was > rendition. Shortly after release, and out of papy's hands, rebdition fell > off the face of the earth, and Microsoft made thier standard, wellstandard. CPR (as one example) had D3D a full year before GPL was released. Racing games like MTM2 (released six months before GPL) also had D3D. > During this papy saw that may users were being left out and made a choice > about a year after relase of the game to put out a OpenGL patch, It took a full year to realize this? Gee. Thanks. Most developers had long since gone to D3D. > this really > didn't work out that well, but ayt least they were supporting everyonenow. After say, 99% of the people who bought it had long ago left it on the shelf. > Now it's 2 years later and they've put out a D3D patch, so that there is > greater support for current graphics cards. Like I said, D3D has been around for three years now. > As for force feedback, they waioted because they didn't think the current > force feedback was quite ready, untill about a year later they got ittuned > out, this si a wuakity of product issue. CPR and MTM2 had ff and it worked well. So did many others. Papyrus employees stated ff was a joke (actually much harsher in their criticism) until all of a sudden it appeared in a patch. Maybe if they had a more open minded attitude, it would of been included much sooner. > The Disco patch? 2 years ago... Do you realise that multiplayer programing > and coding continues to get better, therefore the knowledge for this patch > wasn't really out there 2 years ago, now that they'[ve had more experince, > espesially with N4, they've put out a patch for free so that we can better > enjoy thier game. People could still be right in saying that there isn't a > disco problem in GPL, but the patch was nice... I've been playing racing games/sims online for three years now going all the way back to Ubi Soft's POD. POD, CPR , MTM2, Powerslide, DTR, etc. Despite their age, all performed excellent online. God knows how many races I've had. Never had disconnect problems with any of them except GPL. > 1. It dosn't happen to them, but it's a problem for others with lesser > connections. > 2. It's not really a problem so to speak, but it does happen on occasion,so > it's nice to see it get fixed up. It is/was a problem. That's why a patch was made by the developer. > You really think that EA sports is going to continue to support say SCGT > with new graphics drivers and nrew technology support down the road aspapy > has done? Heck the patch ISI put out wasn't even put up on EA's site for > quite awhile after its release. No, I expect them to have all new games within two years. I'll take an all new sim over a patch for a two year old sim any day. F12000 was made in just nine months. Very impressive accomplishment. A patch soon afterward that massively improved the AI, and added features. Yet people here are criticizing ISI? > In your thinking, there is a flaw in the slaw. You've built up so much > aingst against the GPL crowd (yawn) I haven't had an angst ridden second in my life due to the GPL crowd. Sorry. >that if at any point someone praised GPL over > some other game fore whatever reason ture or flase, you just jump all over > it. Lets face it there is a a lot of truth being said by the supporters of > GPL, it's is the most accurate sim out there. LOL. I responded to his CRITICISM of other developers. Not his praise of Papyrus. Huuuuge difference. There are others who praised Papyrus in this thread. THE ONE AND ONLY reason I even responded to Marc's post was that during his praise of GPL, HE felt the need to put down the excellent F12000 and other developers with the following quote during his praise of Papyrus. "I hope people using F12000 beta retail (and all of the other unfinished sims out there)..." He then gave reasons for doing so by citing patches which should have come out long ago. It's obvious why fans of GPL have this overwhelming desire to constantly downgrade other sims and developers. I'd advise them to ask their psychiatrist. Again, I am not criticizing the men who made the patch. They did these in their spare time. David G Fisher

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> > The game should of been released with D3D TWO YEARS ago. > > > > It should of had ff two years ago. > > > > A patch to fix the disco's shouldn't have taken two years. Since most of > the > > GPL fan club members insisted I was an a**hole for insisting there even > was > > a disco problem, I'm amazed that a patch was needed. I thought I was > > absolutely, positively, wrong about GPL disconnects? > > > > Add up all those hours people like me had to deal with those missing > > ingredients, and give them back to us, and then I'll be grateful to > Papyrus. > > > > There will be a new F12000 within a year (not two). MF released a number > of > > patches soon after the release of RC2000 (and was criticized by the GPL > > crowd for doing so). Other developers support their products too. > > > > BTW, this post IS NOT a criticism of the actual people who made the > patches > > and the game, it is a criticism of the people who decided these patches > had > > to be made in someone's spare time, and caused the long delay. > > > > David G Fisher > > > > >and the disco patch and > > > the FFB patch and all the other passionate work that comes out of your > > shop. > > > The best, most polished sims at release date...and they just keep > getting > > > better with age (and a lot of amazing work from you and from the > dedicated > > > and talented fans who do the add-ons). > > > > > > Bravo! > > > > > > Marc. > > > > > >

On Sat, 24 Jun 2000 18:00:27 GMT, "David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote in message <%G655.18436$A%[email hidden]> : >I'm supposed to learn something from the release of this D3D patch? Despite the best efforts of governments, the desire to learn is still entirely optional.... Cheers, Richard

David G Fisher wrote:

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> "Marc Collins" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:SA355.142657$[email hidden]... > > I hope people using F12000 beta retail (and all of the other unfinished > sims > > out there) likely-never-to-be-patched remember this > > You know Marc, this is just the type of post which causes people like me to > dismiss the GPL crowd. > > I'm supposed to learn something from the release of this D3D patch? > > The game should of been released with D3D TWO YEARS ago. >

<snip> May I add that back when GPL came out DirectX was version 5.x if not mistaken, problem with this and D3D is simple : each manufacturer of video cards implement there own D3D, thus the software engineers had to actually build codes for each and every manufacturer (more or less), for example (not the best but..) Ubisoft had to create patches over patches to address that problem for D3D mode. Now since DirectX is now 7.0 / 7.0a, the problem is gone... there's a standard that now rules D3D , so software engineer don't need to tweak the coding for a specific issue. As for Force Feedback... when GPL came out (was in the first "batch" to buy it) Force Feedback wheel were unpopular to say the least, I believe there was only one manufacturer (or 2) that started to sell, then came Microsoft and Logitech, then the Force Feedback became quite popular, this basically happened 6 months after GPL was released. Long live Papyrus , Dave Kaemer, Randy Cassidy and all others :) Eric http://www.simracingmag.com

D3D in CART:PR was pathetic. FFB in CART:PR is so far in sophistication from that in GPL, they shouldn't be mentioned in the same sentence. Any part of MTM2 shouldn't be mentioned in the same sentence as GPL. Papy could do anything they wanted, but fortunately they seem to hold back on features or support unless they can do it well. Yes, an initial lack of D3D support in GPL was a mistake that cost sales and headaches for many. Now it has been addressed. When are the equally serious and well known flaws in CART:PR, F1 2000, RC 2000, etc., etc. going to be addressed? Marc. "David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:Dma55.18561$A%[email hidden]...

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> > "Kai Fuller" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:1x955.221410$[email hidden]... > > Let me reply to some of your points below... keeping in mind once again > that > > I don't own GPL, so I'm rather unbiased. > > > > > > I hope people using F12000 beta retail (and all of the other > > >>unfinished sims out there) likely-never-to-be-patched remember >>this > > > > > You know Marc, this is just the type of post which causes people like

me > > to dismiss the GPL crowd. > > > I'm supposed to learn something from the release of this D3D >patch? > > (and so on and so forth about the force feedback and disco's which canbe > > read below) > > > > When GPL came out with Glide support glide was almost becoming and > insudtry > > standard like the Sound Blaster cards, and everything else out there was > > rendition. Shortly after release, and out of papy's hands, rebditionfell

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> > off the face of the earth, and Microsoft made thier standard, well > standard. > > CPR (as one example) had D3D a full year before GPL was released. Racing > games like MTM2 (released six months before GPL) also had D3D. > > > During this papy saw that may users were being left out and made a

choice

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> > about a year after relase of the game to put out a OpenGL patch, > > It took a full year to realize this? Gee. Thanks. Most developers had long > since gone to D3D. > > > this really > > didn't work out that well, but ayt least they were supporting everyone > now. > > After say, 99% of the people who bought it had long ago left it on the > shelf. > > > Now it's 2 years later and they've put out a D3D patch, so that there is > > greater support for current graphics cards. > > Like I said, D3D has been around for three years now. > > > As for force feedback, they waioted because they didn't think the

current

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> > force feedback was quite ready, untill about a year later they got it > tuned > > out, this si a wuakity of product issue. > > CPR and MTM2 had ff and it worked well. So did many others. Papyrus > employees stated ff was a joke (actually much harsher in their criticism) > until all of a sudden it appeared in a patch. Maybe if they had a more

open > minded attitude, it would of been included much sooner. > > > The Disco patch? 2 years ago... Do you realise that multiplayerprograming > > and coding continues to get better, therefore the knowledge for thispatch > > wasn't really out there 2 years ago, now that they'[ve had moreexperince, > > espesially with N4, they've put out a patch for free so that we canbetter > > enjoy thier game. People could still be right in saying that there isn'ta > > disco problem in GPL, but the patch was nice... > > I've been playing racing games/sims online for three years now going allthe

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> way back to Ubi Soft's POD. POD, CPR , MTM2, Powerslide, DTR, etc. Despite > their age, all performed excellent online. God knows how many races I've > had. Never had disconnect problems with any of them except GPL. > > > 1. It dosn't happen to them, but it's a problem for others with lesser > > connections. > > 2. It's not really a problem so to speak, but it does happen on

occasion,

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> so > > it's nice to see it get fixed up. > > It is/was a problem. That's why a patch was made by the developer. > > > You really think that EA sports is going to continue to support say SCGT > > with new graphics drivers and nrew technology support down the road as > papy > > has done? Heck the patch ISI put out wasn't even put up on EA's site for > > quite awhile after its release. > > No, I expect them to have all new games within two years. I'll take an all > new sim over a patch for a two year old sim any day. F12000 was made in

just

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> nine months. Very impressive accomplishment. A patch soon afterward that > massively improved the AI, and added features. Yet people here are > criticizing ISI? > > > In your thinking, there is a flaw in the slaw. You've built up so much > > aingst against the GPL crowd > > (yawn) I haven't had an angst ridden second in my life due to the GPL

crowd. > Sorry. > > >that if at any point someone praised GPL over > > some other game fore whatever reason ture or flase, you just jump allover > > it. Lets face it there is a a lot of truth being said by the supportersof

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> > GPL, it's is the most accurate sim out there. > > LOL. I responded to his CRITICISM of other developers. Not his praise of > Papyrus. > > Huuuuge difference. > > There are others who praised Papyrus in this thread. THE ONE AND ONLY

reason

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> I even responded to Marc's post was that during his praise of GPL, HE felt > the need to put down the excellent F12000 and other developers with the > following quote during his praise of Papyrus. > > "I hope people using F12000 beta retail (and all of the other unfinished > sims > out there)..." He then gave reasons for doing so by citing patches which > should have come out long ago. > > It's obvious why fans of GPL have this overwhelming desire to constantly > downgrade other sims and developers. I'd advise them to ask their > psychiatrist. > > Again, I am not criticizing the men who made the patch. They did these in > their spare time. > > David G Fisher > > > > > The game should of been released with D3D TWO YEARS ago. > > > > > > It should of had ff two years ago. > > > > > > A patch to fix the disco's shouldn't have taken two years. Since most

of > > the > > > GPL fan club members insisted I was an a**hole for insisting thereeven

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> > was > > > a disco problem, I'm amazed that a patch was needed. I thought I was > > > absolutely, positively, wrong about GPL disconnects? > > > > > > Add up all those hours people like me had to deal with those missing > > > ingredients, and give them back to us, and then I'll be grateful to > > Papyrus. > > > > > > There will be a new F12000 within a year (not two). MF released a

number > > of > > > patches soon after the release of RC2000 (and was criticized by theGPL > > > crowd for doing so). Other developers support their products too. > > > > > > BTW, this post IS NOT a criticism of the actual people who made the > > patches > > > and the game, it is a criticism of the people who decided thesepatches

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> > had > > > to be made in someone's spare time, and caused the long delay. > > > > > > David G Fisher > > > > > > >and the disco patch and > > > > the FFB patch and all the other passionate work that comes out of

your

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> > > shop. > > > > The best, most polished sims at release date...and they just keep > > getting > > > > better with age (and a lot of amazing work from you and from the > > dedicated > > > > and talented fans who do the add-ons). > > > > > > > > Bravo! > > > > > > > > Marc. > > > > > > > > > > >

replies below > CPR (as one example) had D3D a full year before GPL was > released. Racing > games like MTM2 (released six months before GPL) also had D3D. I didn't say D3D didn't exist, but it was a definiate time of uncertanty for 3D API's a lot of games made the same gamble they did. It wasn't lack of support, which is what we're talking about here. Papy choose glide and rendition (which was to support all the people who bought thier prvious rendition games) > It took a full year to realize this? Gee. Thanks. Most developers had >long > since gone to D3D. They may not have even known that D3D would work better than OGL for this game. It's not like OGL is so much more terrible than D3D in say Homewoerld, I can't tell the differance. So your supposed to put full developer resources into making the D3D rast? I'm sure this has been worked on for awhile, and is now coming out. They didn't just throw it together over the weekend. > After say, 99% of the people who bought it had long ago left it on the > shelf. that's sales figures, that's nice that Papy is still supporting the 1% of folks who bought thioer game 2 years later. Thanks for makinbg my point. > CPR and MTM2 had ff and it worked well. So did many others. Papyrus > employees stated ff was a joke (actually much harsher in their criticism) > until all of a sudden it appeared in a patch. Maybe if they had a moreopen > minded attitude, it would of been included much sooner. I remember them saying the current technology wasn't good enough for GPL, that's fine. and MTM2 isn't exacly a sim, it's more like fun force feedback than totally real. They were alsop very concerned about delay. They were concerned about quality of product. It's a good thing they didn't listen to you and throw in every half ass technology, it wouldn't have been as good of a game. > I've been playing racing games/sims online for three years now going allthe > way back to Ubi Soft's POD. POD, CPR , MTM2, Powerslide, DTR, etc. Despite > their age, all performed excellent online. God knows how many races I've > had. Never had disconnect problems with any of them except GPL. Those games have less participants and less CPU load. The main reason GPL dumps is because the CPU gets bogged down by the physics model. > It is/was a problem. That's why a patch was made by the developer. seen any NTN2 or CPR patches lately? Your throwing a new sim at each question trying to compete with GPL here, I'm noy a big fan of GPL, but I have to say... > No, I expect them to have all new games within two years. I'll take an all > new sim over a patch for a two year old sim any day. F12000 was made injust > nine months. Very impressive accomplishment. A patch soon afterward that > massively improved the AI, and added features. Yet people here are > criticizing ISI? Yeah, why give people a free patch, when you can get forty more bucks out of ya? I like that customer relatrions, esspesially since I'm made out of money. Making people pay for patches is a big problem. As for F12k, it was a rehash of SCGT, with patches that should ahve been in SCGT. You wanna talk about stuff you shjould have gotten when you bought it? How about internet play that worlks as promised? Downloadable cars of the net? Headlights that work. A damage model. But why put out a patch, when you can sell a new game with 1 new car put FIA on it and make somre real cash! There's the critisizm. > (yawn) I haven't had an angst ridden second in my life due to the GPLcrowd. > Sorry. really, based on refeances to the past, and curent comments, you seem pretty bent out of shape to me. > It's obvious why fans of GPL have this overwhelming desire to constantly > downgrade other sims and developers. I'd advise them to ask their > psychiatrist. GPL really does do the best at simulation the physics of a real car on the market. Those of us who really want to drive a simulator just aren't going to drive games drom developers who think they need to dumb down the physics for us. They are here fir the rec,.autos.SIMULATORS... I don't think that on the basis of physics that there is much dispute there. Obviously your feeling are deep seeded, because recently, NFS:PU was given a lot of undisputed credit, without much of the GPL comparisons.

wow sorry I forgot to reread and spell check it, that's all in my short-type spelling... like "critisize" just my way of typing what I'm thinking quickly. Kai Fuller <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:CEf55.223284$[email hidden]... > replies below > > > CPR (as one example) had D3D a full year before GPL was > released.Racing > > games like MTM2 (released six months before GPL) also had D3D. > > I didn't say D3D didn't exist, but it was a definiate time of uncertantyfor

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> 3D API's a lot of games made the same gamble they did. It wasn't lack of > support, which is what we're talking about here. Papy choose glide and > rendition (which was to support all the people who bought thier prvious > rendition games) > > > It took a full year to realize this? Gee. Thanks. Most developers had > > long > > since gone to D3D. > > They may not have even known that D3D would work better than OGL for this > game. It's not like OGL is so much more terrible than D3D in say

Homewoerld,

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> I can't tell the differance. So your supposed to put full developer > resources into making the D3D rast? I'm sure this has been worked on for > awhile, and is now coming out. They didn't just throw it together over the > weekend. > > > After say, 99% of the people who bought it had long ago left it on the > > shelf. > > that's sales figures, that's nice that Papy is still supporting the 1% of > folks who bought thioer game 2 years later. Thanks for makinbg my point. > > > CPR and MTM2 had ff and it worked well. So did many others. Papyrus > > employees stated ff was a joke (actually much harsher in their

criticism) > > until all of a sudden it appeared in a patch. Maybe if they had a more > open > > minded attitude, it would of been included much sooner. > > I remember them saying the current technology wasn't good enough for GPL, > that's fine. and MTM2 isn't exacly a sim, it's more like fun forcefeedback > than totally real. They were alsop very concerned about delay. They were > concerned about quality of product. It's a good thing they didn't listento > you and throw in every half ass technology, it wouldn't have been as goodof > a game. > > > > I've been playing racing games/sims online for three years now going all > the > > way back to Ubi Soft's POD. POD, CPR , MTM2, Powerslide, DTR, etc.Despite

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> > their age, all performed excellent online. God knows how many races I've > > had. Never had disconnect problems with any of them except GPL. > > Those games have less participants and less CPU load. The main reason GPL > dumps is because the CPU gets bogged down by the physics model. > > > It is/was a problem. That's why a patch was made by the developer. > > seen any NTN2 or CPR patches lately? Your throwing a new sim at each > question trying to compete with GPL here, I'm noy a big fan of GPL, but I > have to say... > > > No, I expect them to have all new games within two years. I'll take an

all

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> > new sim over a patch for a two year old sim any day. F12000 was made in > just > > nine months. Very impressive accomplishment. A patch soon afterward that > > massively improved the AI, and added features. Yet people here are > > criticizing ISI? > > Yeah, why give people a free patch, when you can get forty more bucks out

of > ya? I like that customer relatrions, esspesially since I'm made out of > money. Making people pay for patches is a big problem. As for F12k, it wasa > rehash of SCGT, with patches that should ahve been in SCGT. You wanna talk > about stuff you shjould have gotten when you bought it? How about internet > play that worlks as promised? Downloadable cars of the net? Headlightsthat > work. A damage model. But why put out a patch, when you can sell a newgame

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> with 1 new car put FIA on it and make somre real cash! There's the > critisizm. > > > (yawn) I haven't had an angst ridden second in my life due to the GPL > crowd. > > Sorry. > > really, based on refeances to the past, and curent comments, you seem pret

ty

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> bent out of shape to me. > > > It's obvious why fans of GPL have this overwhelming desire to constantly > > downgrade other sims and developers. I'd advise them to ask their > > psychiatrist. > > GPL really does do the best at simulation the physics of a real car on the > market. Those of us who really want to drive a simulator just aren't going > to drive games drom developers who think they need to dumb down the

physics > for us. They are here fir the rec,.autos.SIMULATORS... I don't think thaton

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> the basis of physics that there is much dispute there. Obviously your > feeling are deep seeded, because recently, NFS:PU was given a lot of > undisputed credit, without much of the GPL comparisons. > > > > > >

According to your posts in this thread, every other sim is an "embarrassment", "pathetic", or unmentionable in comparison to GPL. Wow. All you developers out there.......quit your job and don't even bother getting out of bed anymore. David G Fisher "Marc Collins" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:Zbe55.151065$[email hidden]... > D3D in CART:PR was pathetic. FFB in CART:PR is so far in sophistication > from that in GPL, they shouldn't be mentioned in the same sentence. Any > part of MTM2 shouldn't be mentioned in the same sentence as GPL. Papycould > do anything they wanted, but fortunately they seem to hold back onfeatures > or support unless they can do it well. > > Yes, an initial lack of D3D support in GPL was a mistake that cost salesand > headaches for many. Now it has been addressed. When are the equally > serious and well known flaws in CART:PR, F1 2000, RC 2000, etc., etc.going

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> to be addressed? > > Marc. > > > "David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:Dma55.18561$A%[email hidden]... > > > > "Kai Fuller" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:1x955.221410$[email hidden]... > > > Let me reply to some of your points below... keeping in mind once

again

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> > that > > > I don't own GPL, so I'm rather unbiased. > > > > > > > > I hope people using F12000 beta retail (and all of the other > > > >>unfinished sims out there) likely-never-to-be-patched remember >>this > > > > > > > You know Marc, this is just the type of post which causes people

like > me > > > to dismiss the GPL crowd. > > > > I'm supposed to learn something from the release of this D3D >patch? > > > (and so on and so forth about the force feedback and disco's whichcan > be > > > read below) > > > > > > When GPL came out with Glide support glide was almost becoming and > > insudtry > > > standard like the Sound Blaster cards, and everything else out therewas

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> > > rendition. Shortly after release, and out of papy's hands, rebdition > fell > > > off the face of the earth, and Microsoft made thier standard, well > > standard. > > > > CPR (as one example) had D3D a full year before GPL was released. Racing > > games like MTM2 (released six months before GPL) also had D3D. > > > > > During this papy saw that may users were being left out and made a > choice > > > about a year after relase of the game to put out a OpenGL patch, > > > > It took a full year to realize this? Gee. Thanks. Most developers had

long

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> > since gone to D3D. > > > > > this really > > > didn't work out that well, but ayt least they were supporting everyone > > now. > > > > After say, 99% of the people who bought it had long ago left it on the > > shelf. > > > > > Now it's 2 years later and they've put out a D3D patch, so that there

is

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> > > greater support for current graphics cards. > > > > Like I said, D3D has been around for three years now. > > > > > As for force feedback, they waioted because they didn't think the > current > > > force feedback was quite ready, untill about a year later they got it > > tuned > > > out, this si a wuakity of product issue. > > > > CPR and MTM2 had ff and it worked well. So did many others. Papyrus > > employees stated ff was a joke (actually much harsher in their

criticism)

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> > until all of a sudden it appeared in a patch. Maybe if they had a more > open > > minded attitude, it would of been included much sooner. > > > > > The Disco patch? 2 years ago... Do you realise that multiplayer > programing > > > and coding continues to get better, therefore the knowledge for this > patch > > > wasn't really out there 2 years ago, now that they'[ve had more > experince, > > > espesially with N4, they've put out a patch for free so that we can > better > > > enjoy thier game. People could still be right in saying that there

isn't > a > > > disco problem in GPL, but the patch was nice... > > > > I've been playing racing games/sims online for three years now going all > the > > way back to Ubi Soft's POD. POD, CPR , MTM2, Powerslide, DTR, etc.Despite

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> > their age, all performed excellent online. God knows how many races I've > > had. Never had disconnect problems with any of them except GPL. > > > > > 1. It dosn't happen to them, but it's a problem for others with lesser > > > connections. > > > 2. It's not really a problem so to speak, but it does happen on > occasion, > > so > > > it's nice to see it get fixed up. > > > > It is/was a problem. That's why a patch was made by the developer. > > > > > You really think that EA sports is going to continue to support say

SCGT > > > with new graphics drivers and nrew technology support down the road as > > papy > > > has done? Heck the patch ISI put out wasn't even put up on EA's sitefor > > > quite awhile after its release. > > > > No, I expect them to have all new games within two years. I'll take anall

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> > new sim over a patch for a two year old sim any day. F12000 was made in > just > > nine months. Very impressive accomplishment. A patch soon afterward that > > massively improved the AI, and added features. Yet people here are > > criticizing ISI? > > > > > In your thinking, there is a flaw in the slaw. You've built up so much > > > aingst against the GPL crowd > > > > (yawn) I haven't had an angst ridden second in my life due to the GPL > crowd. > > Sorry. > > > > >that if at any point someone praised GPL over > > > some other game fore whatever reason ture or flase, you just jump all > over > > > it. Lets face it there is a a lot of truth being said by the

supporters

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> of > > > GPL, it's is the most accurate sim out there. > > > > LOL. I responded to his CRITICISM of other developers. Not his praise of > > Papyrus. > > > > Huuuuge difference. > > > > There are others who praised Papyrus in this thread. THE ONE AND ONLY > reason > > I even responded to Marc's post was that during his praise of GPL, HE

felt

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> > the need to put down the excellent F12000 and other developers with the > > following quote during his praise of Papyrus. > > > > "I hope people using F12000 beta retail (and all of the other unfinished > > sims > > out there)..." He then gave reasons for doing so by citing patches which > > should have come out long ago. > > > > It's obvious why fans of GPL have this overwhelming desire to constantly > > downgrade other sims and developers. I'd advise them to ask their > > psychiatrist. > > > > Again, I am not criticizing the men who made the patch. They did these

in

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> > their spare time. > > > > David G Fisher > > > > > > > > The game should of been released with D3D TWO YEARS ago. > > > > > > > > It should of had ff two years ago. > > > > > > > > A patch to fix the disco's shouldn't have taken two years. Since

most

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> of > > > the > > > > GPL fan club members insisted I was an a**hole for insisting there > even > > > was > > > > a disco problem, I'm amazed that a patch was needed. I thought I was > > > > absolutely, positively, wrong about GPL disconnects? > > > > > > > > Add up all those hours people like me had to deal with those missing > > > > ingredients, and give them back to us, and then I'll be grateful to > > > Papyrus. > > > > > > > > There will be a new F12000 within a year (not two). MF released a > number > > > of > > > > patches soon after the release of RC2000 (and was criticized by the > GPL > > > > crowd for doing so). Other developers support their products too. > > > > > > > > BTW, this post IS NOT a criticism of the actual people who made the > > > patches > > > > and the game, it is a criticism of the people who decided these > patches > > > had > > > > to be made in someone's spare time, and caused the long delay. > > > > > > > > David G Fisher > > > > > > > > >and the disco patch and > > > > > the FFB patch and all the other passionate work that comes out of > your > > > > shop. > > > > > The best, most polished sims at release date...and they just keep > > > getting > > > > > better with age (and a lot of amazing work from you and from the > > > dedicated > > > > > and talented fans who do the add-ons). > > > > > > > > > > Bravo! > > > > > > > > > > Marc. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

wonderful!! jb

wonderful!! jb

David G Fisher wrote: > CPR (as one example) had D3D a full year before GPL was released. Racing > games like MTM2 (released six months before GPL) also had D3D. Let's see here... CPR & MTM2 were both M$-backed products. M$ is the developer of D3D & the maker of its own FF wheel as well. But then again, even with all these apparent advantages, the implementation of it was rather poor. Papy did the right thing, waiting till it was *right* before releasing it for public consumption. Like the saying goes: If you play the game, you gotta play to win it. And as far as MicroScared goes, patches are the norm & a necessity for any of their products. Papy's come up with a real winner here. Many thanks to all involved! -- Chuck Kandler GPL F1 Handicap of +210.00 as of 6/15 GPL F3 Handicap of +438.42 as of 6/21 K&S Racing http://www.fortunecity.com/silverstone/thepits/195 Registered Linux User #180746 http://counter.li.org

No, developers should try harder as their competition is besting them regularly. All the titles mentioned have their own merits, but as polished finished products they are not in the same universe as anything from Papy (either at release date or later). Regarding physics and driveability modelling, GPL is in a class of its own at this point--including compared to all other Papy titles. Could anyone who has ever driven even a street car disagree with that last point (not if your driving experience stretches beyond the local mall parking lot)? There are lots of fun titles out there, but only one attempts to model the world and the car realistically and even other developers--the honest ones--acknowledge this. Once again, since you don't seem to get this...WHO CARES?!?!? Most people couldn't give a hoot about accurate modelling and it sure doesn't make a title more fun because it has accuracy. But here, at r.a.s., a good chunk of us value this above almost all other considerations (graphics, ease of learning, etc.) Marc. "David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:S3h55.19055$A%[email hidden]... > According to your posts in this thread, every other sim is an > "embarrassment", "pathetic", or unmentionable in comparison to GPL. > > Wow. All you developers out there.......quit your job and don't evenbother

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> getting out of bed anymore. > > David G Fisher > > > "Marc Collins" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:Zbe55.151065$[email hidden]... > > D3D in CART:PR was pathetic. FFB in CART:PR is so far in sophistication > > from that in GPL, they shouldn't be mentioned in the same sentence. Any > > part of MTM2 shouldn't be mentioned in the same sentence as GPL. Papy > could > > do anything they wanted, but fortunately they seem to hold back on > features > > or support unless they can do it well. > > > > Yes, an initial lack of D3D support in GPL was a mistake that cost sales > and > > headaches for many. Now it has been addressed. When are the equally > > serious and well known flaws in CART:PR, F1 2000, RC 2000, etc., etc. > going > > to be addressed? > > > > Marc. > > > > > > "David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:Dma55.18561$A%[email hidden]... > > > > > > "Kai Fuller" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > news:1x955.221410$[email hidden]... > > > > Let me reply to some of your points below... keeping in mind once > again > > > that > > > > I don't own GPL, so I'm rather unbiased. > > > > > > > > > > I hope people using F12000 beta retail (and all of the other > > > > >>unfinished sims out there) likely-never-to-be-patched remember > >>this > > > > > > > > > You know Marc, this is just the type of post which causes people > like > > me > > > > to dismiss the GPL crowd. > > > > > I'm supposed to learn something from the release of this D3D >patch? > > > > (and so on and so forth about the force feedback and disco's which > can > > be > > > > read below) > > > > > > > > When GPL came out with Glide support glide was almost becoming and > > > insudtry > > > > standard like the Sound Blaster cards, and everything else out there > was > > > > rendition. Shortly after release, and out of papy's hands, rebdition > > fell > > > > off the face of the earth, and Microsoft made thier standard, well > > > standard. > > > > > > CPR (as one example) had D3D a full year before GPL was released.

Racing

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> > > games like MTM2 (released six months before GPL) also had D3D. > > > > > > > During this papy saw that may users were being left out and made a > > choice > > > > about a year after relase of the game to put out a OpenGL patch, > > > > > > It took a full year to realize this? Gee. Thanks. Most developers had > long > > > since gone to D3D. > > > > > > > this really > > > > didn't work out that well, but ayt least they were supporting

everyone > > > now. > > > > > > After say, 99% of the people who bought it had long ago left it on the > > > shelf. > > > > > > > Now it's 2 years later and they've put out a D3D patch, so thatthere

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> is > > > > greater support for current graphics cards. > > > > > > Like I said, D3D has been around for three years now. > > > > > > > As for force feedback, they waioted because they didn't think the > > current > > > > force feedback was quite ready, untill about a year later they got

it

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> > > tuned > > > > out, this si a wuakity of product issue. > > > > > > CPR and MTM2 had ff and it worked well. So did many others. Papyrus > > > employees stated ff was a joke (actually much harsher in their > criticism) > > > until all of a sudden it appeared in a patch. Maybe if they had a more > > open > > > minded attitude, it would of been included much sooner. > > > > > > > The Disco patch? 2 years ago... Do you realise that multiplayer > > programing > > > > and coding continues to get better, therefore the knowledge for this > > patch > > > > wasn't really out there 2 years ago, now that they'[ve had more > > experince, > > > > espesially with N4, they've put out a patch for free so that we can > > better > > > > enjoy thier game. People could still be right in saying that there > isn't > > a > > > > disco problem in GPL, but the patch was nice... > > > > > > I've been playing racing games/sims online for three years now going

all > > the > > > way back to Ubi Soft's POD. POD, CPR , MTM2, Powerslide, DTR, etc. > Despite > > > their age, all performed excellent online. God knows how many racesI've > > > had. Never had disconnect problems with any of them except GPL. > > > > > > > 1. It dosn't happen to them, but it's a problem for others withlesser

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> > > > connections. > > > > 2. It's not really a problem so to speak, but it does happen on > > occasion, > > > so > > > > it's nice to see it get fixed up. > > > > > > It is/was a problem. That's why a patch was made by the developer. > > > > > > > You really think that EA sports is going to continue to support say > SCGT > > > > with new graphics drivers and nrew technology support down the road

as

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> > > papy > > > > has done? Heck the patch ISI put out wasn't even put up on EA's site > for > > > > quite awhile after its release. > > > > > > No, I expect them to have all new games within two years. I'll take an > all > > > new sim over a patch for a two year old sim any day. F12000 was made

in > > just > > > nine months. Very impressive accomplishment. A patch soon afterwardthat > > > massively improved the AI, and added features. Yet people here are > > > criticizing ISI? > > > > > > > In your thinking, there is a flaw in the slaw. You've built up somuch

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> > > > aingst against the GPL crowd > > > > > > (yawn) I haven't had an angst ridden second in my life due to the GPL > > crowd. > > > Sorry. > > > > > > >that if at any point someone praised GPL over > > > > some other game fore whatever reason ture or flase, you just jump

all

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> > over > > > > it. Lets face it there is a a lot of truth being said by the > supporters > > of > > > > GPL, it's is the most accurate sim out there. > > > > > > LOL. I responded to his CRITICISM of other developers. Not his praise

of

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> > > Papyrus. > > > > > > Huuuuge difference. > > > > > > There are others who praised Papyrus in this thread. THE ONE AND ONLY > > reason > > > I even responded to Marc's post was that during his praise of GPL, HE > felt > > > the need to put down the excellent F12000 and other developers with

the > > > following quote during his praise of Papyrus. > > > > > > "I hope people using F12000 beta retail (and all of the otherunfinished > > > sims > > > out there)..." He then gave reasons for doing so by citing patcheswhich > > > should have come out long ago. > > > > > > It's obvious why fans of GPL have this overwhelming desire toconstantly

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> > > downgrade other sims and developers. I'd advise them to ask their > > > psychiatrist. > > > > > > Again, I am not criticizing the men who made the patch. They did these > in > > > their spare time. > > > > > > David G Fisher > > > > > > > > > > > The game should of been released with D3D TWO YEARS ago. > > > > > > > > > > It should of had ff two years ago. > > > > > > > > > > A patch to fix the disco's shouldn't have taken two years. Since > most > > of > > > > the > > > > > GPL fan club members insisted I was an a**hole for insisting there > > even > > > > was > > > > > a disco problem, I'm amazed that a patch was needed. I thought I

was > > > > > absolutely, positively, wrong about GPL disconnects? > > > > > > > > > > Add up all those hours people like me had to deal with thosemissing > > > > > ingredients, and give them back to us, and then I'll be gratefulto > > > > Papyrus. > > > > > > > > > > There will be a new F12000 within a year (not two). MF released a > > number > > > > of > > > > > patches soon after the release of RC2000 (and was criticized bythe > > GPL > > > > > crowd for doing so). Other developers support their products too. > > > > > > > > > > BTW, this post IS NOT a criticism of the actual people who madethe

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> > > > patches > > > > > and the game, it is a criticism of the people who decided these > > patches > > > > had > > > > > to be made in someone's spare time, and caused the long delay. > > > > > > > > > > David G Fisher > > > > > > > > > > >and the disco patch and > > > > > > the FFB patch and all the other passionate work that comes out

of > > your > > > > > shop. > > > > > > The best, most polished sims at release date...and they justkeep

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> > > > getting > > > > > > better with age (and a lot of amazing work from you and from the > > > > dedicated > > > > > > and talented fans who do the add-ons). > > > > > > > > > > > > Bravo! > > > > > > > > > > > > Marc. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

"Marc Collins" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:oCo55.152125$[email hidden]... > No, developers should try harder as their competition is besting them > regularly. All the titles mentioned have their own merits, but aspolished > finished products they are not in the same universe as anything from Papy > (either at release date or later). Regarding physics and driveability > modelling, GPL is in a class of its own at this point--including comparedto > all other Papy titles. Could anyone who has ever driven even a street car > disagree with that last point (not if your driving experience stretches > beyond the local mall parking lot)? There are lots of fun titles outthere, > but only one attempts to model the world and the car realistically andeven > other developers--the honest ones--acknowledge this. F12000 has a physics engine that is just as complex as GPL's. Did you know that? No. Open it up and see. Check Viper Racing's physics model too. I bet if you open up RC2000, you'll find a very complex physics model as well. The sims I just mentioned along with GPL have the best ff. You can't have great ff without a top physics model. You can however have a top physics model and poor ff. The fact is that there are people here at r.a.s. like yourself who want desperately to believe that "Regarding physics and driveability modelling, GPL is in a class of its own at this point." The truth is that GPL is not alone at all in the physics department, and falls short in other areas. The truth is in the code, and unfortunately the only arguments I get from GPL'ers are based on what they "feel" is right. Did you know that if I wanted, I could have in my computer tomorrow a physics model made by 50 physicists, mathematicians and computer programmers who studied at Universities like Cambridge and Oxford? Physics models aren't made with majic. Papyrus doesn't have a secret physics potion. The "physics model" topic is full of opinion, but very few facts. I look forward to the posts of people like Gregor Veble because he's one of the few people who really seem to know what he's talking about with regards to physics. > Once again, since you don't seem to get this...WHO CARES?!?!? Most people > couldn't give a hoot about accurate modelling and it sure doesn't make a > title more fun because it has accuracy. But here, at r.a.s., a good chunk > of us value this above almost all other considerations (graphics, ease of > learning, etc.) Problem is, most people here who claim to value the physics accuracy, don't know what the hell they are talking about, and then trash other sims. YOU don't seem to get this, do you? David G Fisher

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> "David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:S3h55.19055$A%[email hidden]... > > According to your posts in this thread, every other sim is an > > "embarrassment", "pathetic", or unmentionable in comparison to GPL. > > > > Wow. All you developers out there.......quit your job and don't even > bother > > getting out of bed anymore. > > > > David G Fisher > > > > > > "Marc Collins" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:Zbe55.151065$[email hidden]... > > > D3D in CART:PR was pathetic. FFB in CART:PR is so far in

sophistication > > > from that in GPL, they shouldn't be mentioned in the same sentence.Any

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> > > part of MTM2 shouldn't be mentioned in the same sentence as GPL. Papy > > could > > > do anything they wanted, but fortunately they seem to hold back on > > features > > > or support unless they can do it well. > > > > > > Yes, an initial lack of D3D support in GPL was a mistake that cost

sales

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> > and > > > headaches for many. Now it has been addressed. When are the equally > > > serious and well known flaws in CART:PR, F1 2000, RC 2000, etc., etc. > > going > > > to be addressed? > > > > > > Marc. > > > > > > > > > "David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > news:Dma55.18561$A%[email hidden]... > > > > > > > > "Kai Fuller" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > > news:1x955.221410$[email hidden]... > > > > > Let me reply to some of your points below... keeping in mind once > > again > > > > that > > > > > I don't own GPL, so I'm rather unbiased. > > > > > > > > > > > > I hope people using F12000 beta retail (and all of the other > > > > > >>unfinished sims out there) likely-never-to-be-patched remember > > >>this > > > > > > > > > > > You know Marc, this is just the type of post which causes people > > like > > > me > > > > > to dismiss the GPL crowd. > > > > > > I'm supposed to learn something from the release of this D3D > >patch? > > > > > (and so on and so forth about the force feedback and disco's

which

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> > can > > > be > > > > > read below) > > > > > > > > > > When GPL came out with Glide support glide was almost becoming and > > > > insudtry > > > > > standard like the Sound Blaster cards, and everything else out

there > > was > > > > > rendition. Shortly after release, and out of papy's hands,rebdition

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> > > fell > > > > > off the face of the earth, and Microsoft made thier standard, well > > > > standard. > > > > > > > > CPR (as one example) had D3D a full year before GPL was released. > Racing > > > > games like MTM2 (released six months before GPL) also had D3D. > > > > > > > > > During this papy saw that may users were being left out and made a > > > choice > > > > > about a year after relase of the game to put out a OpenGL patch, > > > > > > > > It took a full year to realize this? Gee. Thanks. Most developers

had

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> > long > > > > since gone to D3D. > > > > > > > > > this really > > > > > didn't work out that well, but ayt least they were supporting > everyone > > > > now. > > > > > > > > After say, 99% of the people who bought it had long ago left it on

the

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> > > > shelf. > > > > > > > > > Now it's 2 years later and they've put out a D3D patch, so that > there > > is > > > > > greater support for current graphics cards. > > > > > > > > Like I said, D3D has been around for three years now. > > > > > > > > > As for force feedback, they waioted because they didn't think the > > > current > > > > > force feedback was quite ready, untill about a year later they got > it > > > > tuned > > > > > out, this si a wuakity of product issue. > > > > > > > > CPR and MTM2 had ff and it worked well. So did many others. Papyrus > > > > employees stated ff was a joke (actually much harsher in their > > criticism) > > > > until all of a sudden it appeared in a patch. Maybe if they had a

more > > > open > > > > minded attitude, it would of been included much sooner. > > > > > > > > > The Disco patch? 2 years ago... Do you realise that multiplayer > > > programing > > > > > and coding continues to get better, therefore the knowledge forthis > > > patch > > > > > wasn't really out there 2 years ago, now that they'[ve had more > > > experince, > > > > > espesially with N4, they've put out a patch for free so that wecan

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> > > better > > > > > enjoy thier game. People could still be right in saying that there > > isn't > > > a > > > > > disco problem in GPL, but the patch was nice... > > > > > > > > I've been playing racing games/sims online for three years now going > all > > > the > > > > way back to Ubi Soft's POD. POD, CPR , MTM2, Powerslide, DTR, etc. > > Despite > > > > their age, all performed excellent online. God knows how many races > I've > > > > had. Never had disconnect problems with any of them except GPL. > > > > > > > > > 1. It dosn't happen to them, but it's a problem for others with > lesser > > > > > connections. > > > > > 2. It's not really a problem so to speak, but it does happen on > > > occasion, > > > > so > > > > > it's nice to see it get fixed up. > > > > > > > > It is/was a problem. That's why a patch was made by the developer. > > > > > > > > > You really think that EA sports is going to continue to support

say > > SCGT > > > > > with new graphics drivers and nrew technology support down theroad > as > > > > papy > > > > > has done? Heck the patch ISI put out wasn't even put up on EA'ssite > > for > > > > > quite awhile after its release. > > > > > > > > No, I expect them to have all new games within two years. I'll takean

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> > all > > > > new sim over a patch for a two year old sim any day. F12000 was made > in > > > just > > > > nine months. Very impressive accomplishment. A patch soon afterward > that > > > > massively improved the AI, and added features. Yet people here are > > > > criticizing ISI? > > > > > > > > > In your thinking, there is a flaw in the slaw. You've built up so > much > > > > > aingst against the GPL crowd > > > > > > > > (yawn) I haven't had an angst ridden second in my life due to the

GPL

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> > > crowd. > > > > Sorry. > > > > > > > > >that if at any point someone praised GPL over > > > > > some other game fore whatever reason ture or flase, you just jump > all > > > over > > > > > it. Lets face it there is a a lot of truth being said by the > > supporters > > > of > > > > > GPL, it's is the most accurate sim out there. > > > > > > > > LOL. I responded to his CRITICISM of other developers. Not his

praise > of > > > > Papyrus. > > > > > > > > Huuuuge difference. > > > > > > > > There are others who praised Papyrus in this thread. THE ONE ANDONLY > > > reason > > > > I even responded to Marc's post was that during his praise of GPL,HE

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> > felt > > > > the need to put down the excellent F12000 and other developers with > the > > > > following quote during his praise of Papyrus. > > > > > > > > "I hope people using F12000 beta retail (and all of the other > unfinished > > > > sims > > > > out there)..." He then gave reasons for doing so by citing patches > which > > > > should have come out long ago. > > > > > > > > It's obvious why fans of GPL have this overwhelming desire to > constantly > > > > downgrade other sims and developers. I'd advise them to ask their > > > > psychiatrist. > > > > > > > > Again, I am not criticizing the men who made the patch. They did

these

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> > in > > > > their spare time. > > > > > > > > David G Fisher > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The game should of been released with D3D TWO YEARS ago. > > > > > > > > > > > > It should of had ff two years ago. > > > > > > > > > > > > A patch to fix the disco's shouldn't have taken two years. Since > > most > > > of > > > > > the > > > > > > GPL fan club members insisted I was an a**hole for insisting

there

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> > > even > > > > > was > > > > > > a disco problem, I'm amazed that a patch was needed. I thought I > was > > > > > > absolutely, positively, wrong about GPL disconnects? > > > > > > > > > > > > Add up all those hours people like me had to deal with those > missing > > > > > > ingredients, and give them back to us, and then I'll be grateful > to > > > > > Papyrus. > > > > > > > > > > > > There will be a new F12000 within a year (not two). MF released

a > > > number > > > > > of > > > > > > patches soon after the release of RC2000 (and was criticized by > the > > > GPL > > > > > > crowd for doing so). Other developers support their productstoo.

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> > > > > > > > > > > > BTW, this post IS NOT a criticism of the actual people who made > the > > > > > patches > > > > > > and the game, it is a criticism of the people who decided these > > > patches > > > > > had > > > > > > to be made in someone's spare time, and caused the long delay. > > > > > > > > > > > > David G Fisher > > > > > > > > > > > > >and the disco patch and > > > > > > > the FFB patch and all the other passionate work that comes out > of > > > your > > > > > > shop. > > > > > > > The best, most polished sims at release date...and they just > keep > > > > > getting > > > > > > > better with age (and a lot of amazing work from you and from

the

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> > > > > dedicated > > > > > > > and talented fans who do the add-ons). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Bravo! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Marc. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

"David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:5_z55.20275$A%[email hidden]... > > Did you know that if I wanted, I could have in my computer tomorrow a > physics model made by 50 physicists, mathematicians and computerprogrammers > who studied at Universities like Cambridge and Oxford? Physics modelsaren't > made with majic. Papyrus doesn't have a secret physics potion. Hmmmn that sounds dangerously like the failed Trans Am project. Plenty of guys who new their way around CRAYs couldn't put together a workable project. > > The "physics model" topic is full of opinion, but very few facts. I look > forward to the posts of people like Gregor Veble because he's one of thefew > people who really seem to know what he's talking about with regards to > physics. Mildly put, most sims do INDEED have very advanced physics. But many of the last generation also had kludges(techy term sorry) little tables or canned routines that bailed out the programmers when they ran into brick walls. Now GPL may have those as well, but I think what most people mean when they extoll the virtues of the GPL physics engine, is that the Kludges are very difficult to expose. GP2 had canned spins. F1rs had modulated acceleration no matter how you metered the gas pedal. SCGT had AI waypoints that ignored most of the track. etc etc > > > Once again, since you don't seem to get this...WHO CARES?!?!? Mostpeople > > couldn't give a hoot about accurate modelling and it sure doesn't make a > > title more fun because it has accuracy. But here, at r.a.s., a goodchunk > > of us value this above almost all other considerations (graphics, easeof > > learning, etc.) > > Problem is, most people here who claim to value the physics accuracy,don't > know what the hell they are talking about, and then trash other sims. YOU > don't seem to get this, do you? They look for what sets GPL apart from other sims. They find the driving representation has more visual/aureal/tactile feedback than most other products. So they say the physics are better. If it is not the physics, but some other aspect they don't comprehend, the end result is still the same. We are all looking for new products to rise to the same level of GPL and hopefully beyond it. As of yet, none of the pretenders have been able to do so. dave henrie

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> > David G Fisher > > > > > > "David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:S3h55.19055$A%[email hidden]... > > > According to your posts in this thread, every other sim is an > > > "embarrassment", "pathetic", or unmentionable in comparison to GPL. > > > > > > Wow. All you developers out there.......quit your job and don't even > > bother > > > getting out of bed anymore. > > > > > > David G Fisher > > > > > > > > > "Marc Collins" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > news:Zbe55.151065$[email hidden]... > > > > D3D in CART:PR was pathetic. FFB in CART:PR is so far in > sophistication > > > > from that in GPL, they shouldn't be mentioned in the same sentence. > Any > > > > part of MTM2 shouldn't be mentioned in the same sentence as GPL.

Papy

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> > > could > > > > do anything they wanted, but fortunately they seem to hold back on > > > features > > > > or support unless they can do it well. > > > > > > > > Yes, an initial lack of D3D support in GPL was a mistake that cost > sales > > > and > > > > headaches for many. Now it has been addressed. When are the

equally > > > > serious and well known flaws in CART:PR, F1 2000, RC 2000, etc.,etc.

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> > > going > > > > to be addressed? > > > > > > > > Marc. > > > > > > > > > > > > "David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > > news:Dma55.18561$A%[email hidden]... > > > > > > > > > > "Kai Fuller" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > > > news:1x955.221410$[email hidden]... > > > > > > Let me reply to some of your points below... keeping in mind

once

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> > > again > > > > > that > > > > > > I don't own GPL, so I'm rather unbiased. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I hope people using F12000 beta retail (and all of the other > > > > > > >>unfinished sims out there) likely-never-to-be-patched remember > > > >>this > > > > > > > > > > > > > You know Marc, this is just the type of post which causes

people

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> > > like > > > > me > > > > > > to dismiss the GPL crowd. > > > > > > > I'm supposed to learn something from the release of this D3D > > >patch? > > > > > > (and so on and so forth about the force feedback and disco's > which > > > can > > > > be > > > > > > read below) > > > > > > > > > > > > When GPL came out with Glide support glide was almost becoming

and

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> > > > > insudtry > > > > > > standard like the Sound Blaster cards, and everything else out > there > > > was > > > > > > rendition. Shortly after release, and out of papy's hands, > rebdition > > > > fell > > > > > > off the face of the earth, and Microsoft made thier standard,

well

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> > > > > standard. > > > > > > > > > > CPR (as one example) had D3D a full year before GPL was released. > > Racing > > > > > games like MTM2 (released six months before GPL) also had D3D. > > > > > > > > > > > During this papy saw that may users were being left out and made

a

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> > > > choice > > > > > > about a year after relase of the game to put out a OpenGL patch, > > > > > > > > > > It took a full year to realize this? Gee. Thanks. Most developers > had > > > long > > > > > since gone to D3D. > > > > > > > > > > > this really > > > > > > didn't work out that well, but ayt least they were supporting > > everyone > > > > > now. > > > > > > > > > > After say, 99% of the people who bought it had long ago left it on > the > > > > > shelf. > > > > > > > > > > > Now it's 2 years later and they've put out a D3D patch, so that > > there > > > is > > > > > > greater support for current graphics cards. > > > > > > > > > > Like I said, D3D has been around for three years now. > > > > > > > > > > > As for force feedback, they waioted because they didn't think

the > > > > current > > > > > > force feedback was quite ready, untill about a year later theygot > > it > > > > > tuned > > > > > > out, this si a wuakity of product issue. > > > > > > > > > > CPR and MTM2 had ff and it worked well. So did many others.Papyrus

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> > > > > employees stated ff was a joke (actually much harsher in their > > > criticism) > > > > > until all of a sudden it appeared in a patch. Maybe if they had a > more > > > > open > > > > > minded attitude, it would of been included much sooner. > > > > > > > > > > > The Disco patch? 2 years ago... Do you realise that multiplayer > > > > programing > > > > > > and coding continues to get better, therefore the knowledge for > this > > > > patch > > > > > > wasn't really out there 2 years ago, now that they'[ve had more > > > > experince, > > > > > > espesially with N4, they've put out a patch for free so that we > can > > > > better > > > > > > enjoy thier game. People could still be right in saying that

there > > > isn't > > > > a > > > > > > disco problem in GPL, but the patch was nice... > > > > > > > > > > I've been playing racing games/sims online for three years nowgoing > > all > > > > the > > > > > way back to Ubi Soft's POD. POD, CPR , MTM2, Powerslide, DTR, etc. > > > Despite > > > > > their age, all performed excellent online. God knows how manyraces

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> > I've > > > > > had. Never had disconnect problems with any of them except GPL. > > > > > > > > > > > 1. It dosn't happen to them, but it's a problem for others with > > lesser > > > > > > connections. > > > > > > 2. It's not really a problem so to speak, but it does happen on > > > > occasion, > > > > > so > > > > > > it's nice to see it get fixed up. > > > > > > > > > > It is/was a problem. That's why a patch was made by the developer. > > > > > > > > > > > You really think that EA sports is going to continue to support > say > > > SCGT > > > > > > with new graphics drivers and nrew technology support down the > road > > as > > > > > papy > > > > > > has done? Heck the patch ISI put out wasn't even put up on EA's > site > > > for > > > > > > quite awhile after its release. > > > > > > > > > > No, I expect them to have all new games within two years. I'll

take > an > > > all > > > > > new sim over a patch for a two year old sim any day. F12000 wasmade > > in > > > > just > > > > > nine months. Very impressive accomplishment. A patch soonafterward > > that > > > > > massively improved the AI, and added features. Yet people here are > > > > > criticizing ISI? > > > > > > > > > > > In your thinking, there is a flaw in the slaw. You've built upso

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> > much > > > > > > aingst against the GPL crowd > > > > > > > > > > (yawn) I haven't had an angst ridden second in my life due to the > GPL > > > > crowd. > > > > > Sorry. > > > > > > > > > > >that if at any point someone praised GPL over > > > > > > some other game fore whatever reason ture or flase, you just

jump

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> > all > > > > over > > > > > > it. Lets face it there is a a lot of truth being said by the > > > supporters > > > > of > > > > > > GPL, it's is the most accurate sim out there. > > > > > > > > > > LOL. I responded to his CRITICISM of other developers. Not his > praise > > of > > > > > Papyrus. > > > > > > > > > > Huuuuge difference. > > > > > > > > > > There are others who praised Papyrus in this thread. THE ONE AND > ONLY > > > > reason > > > > > I even responded to Marc's post was that during his praise of GPL, > HE > > > felt > > > > > the need to put down the excellent F12000 and other developers

with

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> > the > > > > > following quote during his praise of Papyrus. > > > > > > > > > > "I hope people using F12000 beta retail (and all of the other > > unfinished > > > > > sims > > > > > out there)..." He then gave reasons for doing so by citing patches > > which > > > > > should have come out long ago. > > > > > > > > > > It's obvious why fans of GPL have this overwhelming desire to > > constantly > > > > > downgrade other sims and developers. I'd advise them to ask their > > > > > psychiatrist. > > > > > > > > > > Again, I am not criticizing the men who made the patch. They did > these > > > in > > > > > their spare time. > > > > > > > > > > David G Fisher > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The game should of been released with D3D TWO YEARS ago. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It should of had ff two years ago. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > A patch to fix the disco's shouldn't have taken two years.

Since

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> > > most > > > > of > > > > > > the > > > > > > > GPL fan club members insisted I was an a**hole for insisting > there > > > > even > > > > > > was > > > > > > > a disco problem, I'm amazed that a patch was needed. I thought

I > > was > > > > > > > absolutely, positively, wrong about GPL disconnects? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Add up all those hours people like me had to deal with those > > missing > > > > > > > ingredients, and give them back to us, and then I'll begrateful > > to > > > > > > Papyrus. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There will be a new F12000 within a year (not two). MFreleased > a > > > > number > > > > > > of > > > > > > > patches soon after the release of RC2000 (and was criticizedby > > the > > > > GPL > > > > > > > crowd for doing so). Other developers support their products > too. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > BTW, this post IS NOT a criticism of the actual people whomade > > the > > > > > > patches > > > > > > > and the game, it is a criticism of the people who decidedthese

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> > > > patches > > > > > > had > > > > > > > to be made in someone's spare time, and caused the long delay. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > David G Fisher > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >and the disco patch and > > > > > > > > the FFB patch and all the other passionate work that comes

out

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> > of > > > > your > > > > > > > shop. > > > > > > > > The best, most polished sims at release date...and they just > > keep > > > > > > getting > > > > > > > > better with age (and a lot of amazing work from you and from > the > > > > > > dedicated > > > > > > > > and talented fans who do the add-ons). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Bravo! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Marc. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

David G Fisher wrote: > > The "physics model" topic is full of opinion, but very few facts. I look > forward to the posts of people like Gregor Veble because he's one of the few > people who really seem to know what he's talking about with regards to > physics. > Wow, I didn't think that anyone actually reads my posts :-). -Gregor

Comments in appropriate places below. -- Ian P <email address invalid due to spam David G Fisher <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:%G655.18436$A%[email hidden]... > > "Marc Collins" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:SA355.142657$[email hidden]... > > I hope people using F12000 beta retail (and all of the other unfinished > sims > > out there) likely-never-to-be-patched remember this > > You know Marc, this is just the type of post which causes people like me to > dismiss the GPL crowd. How do you define the GPL crowd ? I have GPL and a number of other sims, do I qualify ? > > I'm supposed to learn something from the release of this D3D patch? Who said that ? > > The game should of been released with D3D TWO YEARS ago. Why, D3D was pathetic when GPL was released. > > It should of had ff two years ago. GPL was developed without FF support, so why should it have been released with it ? Papy decided after release that FF could be done to a standard which satisfied them and decided to add it as a free patch. I'm just glad they didn't find it acceptable to give GPL the same FF as CPR. > > A patch to fix the disco's shouldn't have taken two years. Since most of the > GPL fan club members insisted I was an a**hole for insisting there even was > a disco problem, I'm amazed that a patch was needed. I thought I was > absolutely, positively, wrong about GPL disconnects? You made the problem sound far worse than it actually was, some people did have problems but the majority could go about 20 races before a disco. A disco is now a rare occurrence for me since I changed to ISDN (No I don't use the disco patch) > > Add up all those hours people like me had to deal with those missing > ingredients, and give them back to us, and then I'll be grateful to Papyrus. I spent far more time trying to get CPR running to a reasonable standard than all the Papy games I own combined, I still haven't succeeded with the lousy AI, the steering which just doesn't seem connected to what the car is actually doing and those brakes that can lock the wheels by breathing on the pedals. > > There will be a new F12000 within a year (not two). MF released a number of > patches soon after the release of RC2000 (and was criticized by the GPL > crowd for doing so). Other developers support their products too. The new F1 2000 will be F1 2001, a new game we'll have to pay for, doesn't sound like a fair patch to me. Can't comment on RC 2000 as the copy protected CD wouldn't run on my PC even after the patches. (Not knocking F1 2000 I like it, but it could have been better) > > BTW, this post IS NOT a criticism of the actual people who made the patches > and the game, it is a criticism of the people who decided these patches had > to be made in someone's spare time, and caused the long delay. They were patches that brought new features to the game (except the disco patch, they apparently stumbled across a method of improving multiplayer while working on the latest sim). Patches are normally to fix bugs, something which (IMO) GPL didn't have many of. When is the next patch for RC2000 due ? Will there be another as it still won't run for me. work that comes out of your > shop. > > The best, most polished sims at release date...and they just keep getting > > better with age (and a lot of amazing work from you and from the dedicated > > and talented fans who do the add-on's). > > > > Bravo! > > > > Marc. > >

I sure read them. I even almost understand some of them. :-) I'm sure many here read your posts. Everyone has an opinion, but when it comes to discussing facts, that's much more difficult. David G Fisher "Gregor Veble" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > David G Fisher wrote: > > > > The "physics model" topic is full of opinion, but very few facts. I look > > forward to the posts of people like Gregor Veble because he's one of thefew

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> > people who really seem to know what he's talking about with regards to > > physics. > > > > Wow, I didn't think that anyone actually reads my posts :-). > > -Gregor

On Fri, 23 Jun 2000 15:20:28 -0400, Rich Yasi <[email hidden]> wrote:

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>On behalf of all of us at Papyrus, I'd like to thank engineer Grant Reeve >for making this D3D rasterizer happen. He did this work in his spare time, >and his efforts represent yet another example of the extraordinary level of >passion that exists within the GPL community. > >Rich Yasi >Senior Designer >Papyrus Design Group > > > >

Hi Rich, it's very good to hear that employees at Papy are still involved in such a great way with a product that's two years old (and probably a product that most of you had no part in creating). Do you think we can expect this passionate group to bless us with a native Linux port of your masterpiece? Interest is high (check the petition at http://www.schuerkamp.de/cgi-bin/sign.cgi?function=list) and the porting project itself could be handed over to Loki or some other company with expertise in the Linux gaming area. Please check the petitions and some of the rather insightful comments that go along with it. I'd be very happy to hear back from you on this matter! Thanks much in advance for your thoughts, Uwe -- Uwe Schuerkamp http://www.schuerkamp.de/ uwe.schuerkamp at telemedia.de for direct mail (from: is spambox) PGP Fingerprint: 2E 13 20 22 9A 3F 63 7F 67 6F E9 B1 A8 36 A4 61

[email hidden] (Uwe Schuerkamp) writes:

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> > Do you think we can expect this passionate group to bless us with a > native Linux port of your masterpiece? Interest is high (check the > petition at http://www.schuerkamp.de/cgi-bin/sign.cgi?function=list) > and the porting project itself could be handed over to Loki or some > other company with expertise in the Linux gaming area. > > Please check the petitions and some of the rather insightful > comments that go along with it. I'd be very happy to hear back from > you on this matter!

Impressive list, do you have count on how many have signed ? -- Olav K. Malmin remove spam when replying