GP3 & GPL

Just wondering....after the fuss about GP3 dies down will we all be driving GP3 for 2 years straining to get .1sec quicker? I suspect not....my best guess is that GPL is of a standard that we are unlikely to see again for a long time. Personally I'd love to drive current F1 cars with the same sort of physics accuracy as GPL....perhaps if someone could introduce Dave Kaemmer to Geoff Crammond we could really make some progress!....any thoughts?

Now there's a recipe for a fight if I ever saw one. Lol... perish the thought! Jan. =--- Wolfe wrote... > <snip>perhaps if someone could introduce Dave > Kaemmer to Geoff Crammond we could really make > some progress!....any thoughts?

> thing I am going to do to GP3 is jump in the car and rev the motor. If the > chasis doesn't move then I'm taking the game back because obviously they > didn't factor in all the physics. I would take it back if it moves! Borut

Lets give GP3 a try before we judje it. GP3 WILL NOT feel the same as GPL. The cars are from defferent eras. Steven

A Crammond - Kaemmer collaboration :) Wolfe <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:CNQ55.1510$[email hidden]... > Just wondering....after the fuss about GP3 dies down will we all bedriving

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> GP3 for 2 years straining to get .1sec quicker? I suspect not....my best > guess is that GPL is of a standard that we are unlikely to see again for a > long time. Personally I'd love to drive current F1 cars with the same sort > of physics accuracy as GPL....perhaps if someone could introduce Dave > Kaemmer to Geoff Crammond we could really make some progress!....any > thoughts? > >

On Mon 26 Jun 2000 11:27:46pm, Wolfe wrote: <snip> >perhaps if someone could introduce Dave Kaemmer to Geoff >Crammond we could really make some progress!....any thoughts? Maybe we could get wet weather into GPL... -- David. (GPLRank handicap: +39.92) "After all, a mere thousand yards - such a harmless little knoll, really." (Raymond Mays on Shelsley Walsh)

GP3 will be a different kind of challenge, not the ultimate physics as we see them in GPL but it will be giving of what it takes to drive a modern F1 race. And the wet weather is just great. And don't forget that Kaemmer has a CART/F1 sim up his sleeve. Now that sim is really going to take over my life. "Wolfe" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:CNQ55.1510$[email hidden]... > Just wondering....after the fuss about GP3 dies down will we all bedriving

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> GP3 for 2 years straining to get .1sec quicker? I suspect not....my best > guess is that GPL is of a standard that we are unlikely to see again for a > long time. Personally I'd love to drive current F1 cars with the same sort > of physics accuracy as GPL....perhaps if someone could introduce Dave > Kaemmer to Geoff Crammond we could really make some progress!....any > thoughts? > >

WSC will take it to the next level. We will be spending more time in the shop and more time on the track with the ability to always get a little bit better. Trust me on this one, it's going to be big. Wolfe <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:CNQ55.1510$[email hidden]... > Just wondering....after the fuss about GP3 dies down will we all bedriving

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> GP3 for 2 years straining to get .1sec quicker? I suspect not....my best > guess is that GPL is of a standard that we are unlikely to see again for a > long time. Personally I'd love to drive current F1 cars with the same sort > of physics accuracy as GPL....perhaps if someone could introduce Dave > Kaemmer to Geoff Crammond we could really make some progress!....any > thoughts? > >

a private effort is underway for that...we've had wet rain tracks with N2/99 for a couple of years with the Touring car patch(tptcc) shouldn't be too hard to at least hack the track settings....Now SPRAY and puddles etc...thats another story. -- dave henrie Team Backmarker #55b Dodge Stratus Super Touring Car TPTCC "David Buttery" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > On Mon 26 Jun 2000 11:27:46pm, Wolfe wrote: > > <snip> > >perhaps if someone could introduce Dave Kaemmer to Geoff > >Crammond we could really make some progress!....any thoughts? > > Maybe we could get wet weather into GPL... > > -- > David. (GPLRank handicap: +39.92) > "After all, a mere thousand yards - such a harmless little knoll, > really." > (Raymond Mays on Shelsley Walsh)

People are still going to judge them on an even level. Personally the first thing I am going to do to GP3 is jump in the car and rev the motor. If the chasis doesn't move then I'm taking the game back because obviously they didn't factor in all the physics. I might just give it a chance too! heheh. Vintook "RCFUN2" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > Lets give GP3 a try before we judje it. GP3 WILL NOT feel the same asGPL. > The cars are from defferent eras. > > Steven

A Crammond - Kaemmer collaboration :)

<snip> Maybe we could get wet weather into GPL... -- David. (GPLRank handicap: +39.92) "After all, a mere thousand yards - such a harmless little knoll, really." (Raymond Mays on Shelsley Walsh)

I would take it back if it moves! Borut

"Vintook" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:NY%55.108467$[email hidden]... > People are still going to judge them on an even level. Personally thefirst > thing I am going to do to GP3 is jump in the car and rev the motor. If the > chasis doesn't move then I'm taking the game back because obviously they > didn't factor in all the physics. I might just give it a chance too!heheh. > > Vintook Bear in mind that the '67 Grand Prix cars had spring rates on the order of 100 lbs/in while a modern car has spring rates on the order of 1000 lbs/in.

A wet race feature in GPL? No thanks! I struggle to keep it on the black stuff as it is. Got questions? Get answers over the phone at Keen.com. Up to 100 minutes free! http://www.keen.com

I bet GP3 will be good. I drove it at E3 and if you like modern day F1 you should probably get it. It isn't even close to GPL for me but half the fun of GPL (for me) is those old cars. The new ones just aren't as exciting for me. C. Hansen On Mon, 26 Jun 2000 22:55:01 GMT, "Harjan Brand" <[email hidden]> wrote:

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>GP3 will be a different kind of challenge, not the ultimate physics as we >see them in GPL but it will be giving of what it takes to drive a modern F1 >race. And the wet weather is just great. > >And don't forget that Kaemmer has a CART/F1 sim up his sleeve. Now that sim >is really going to take over my life. >"Wolfe" <[email hidden]> wrote in message >news:CNQ55.1510$[email hidden]... >> Just wondering....after the fuss about GP3 dies down will we all be >driving >> GP3 for 2 years straining to get .1sec quicker? I suspect not....my best >> guess is that GPL is of a standard that we are unlikely to see again for a >> long time. Personally I'd love to drive current F1 cars with the same sort >> of physics accuracy as GPL....perhaps if someone could introduce Dave >> Kaemmer to Geoff Crammond we could really make some progress!....any >> thoughts? >> >> > >

You can't even see the suspension move when they're cornering at 3 G ;) -- Ian P <email address invalid due to spam Kevin Gavitt <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:Kc165.12051$[email hidden]... > > "Vintook" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:NY%55.108467$[email hidden]... > > People are still going to judge them on an even level. Personally the > first > > thing I am going to do to GP3 is jump in the car and rev the motor. If the > > chasis doesn't move then I'm taking the game back because obviously they > > didn't factor in all the physics. I might just give it a chance too! > heheh. > > > > Vintook > > > Bear in mind that the '67 Grand Prix cars had spring rates on the order of > 100 lbs/in while a modern car has spring rates on the order of 1000 lbs/in. > >

Wolfe <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:CNQ55.1510$[email hidden]... > Just wondering....after the fuss about GP3 dies down will we all bedriving > GP3 for 2 years straining to get .1sec quicker? I suspect not....my best > guess is that GPL is of a standard that we are unlikely to see again for a > long time. Personally I'd love to drive current F1 cars with the same sort > of physics accuracy as GPL....perhaps if someone could introduce Dave > Kaemmer to Geoff Crammond we could really make some progress!....any > thoughts? Actually no..... your right, thats because Geoff cares enough to give us more. We'll be moved on to GP5 or 6 maybe in 2 years while this NG still dwells back in 1998.

Vintook <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:NY%55.108467$[email hidden]... > People are still going to judge them on an even level. Personally thefirst > thing I am going to do to GP3 is jump in the car and rev the motor. If the > chasis doesn't move then I'm taking the game back because obviously they > didn't factor in all the physics. I might just give it a chance too!heheh. Firstly, waht are you talking about? Of course the chassis will move if you rev it. It will not if it's in neutral. I think if this isn't modeled in a car sim then it inda defeats the whole perpose ofmaking one dopn't you think? Secondly what is the deal with taking sims back? If you buy it with the intention of looking only to see every little fault in the game then why buy itin the first place? And to add to tha there are such things as consumer laws. If a game is bought its bought, the shop owes you nothing if you don't like it.

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> Vintook > > "RCFUN2" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > Lets give GP3 a try before we judje it. GP3 WILL NOT feel the same as > GPL. > > The cars are from defferent eras. > > > > Steven > >

The modern F1 car gets as much of it's total springing from the air in the tyres as it does from the suspension. If the chassis rocks when you rev the engine, the car's broken. -- -Ace- Ian P <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:8jam96$lkm$[email hidden]... > You can't even see the suspension move when they're cornering at 3 G ;) > > "Vintook" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:NY%55.108467$[email hidden]... > > > People are still going to judge them on an even level. Personally the > > first > > > thing I am going to do to GP3 is jump in the car and rev the motor. If > the > > > chasis doesn't move then I'm taking the game back because obviously they > > > didn't factor in all the physics. I might just give it a chance too! > > heheh. > > > > > > Vintook

On Tue, 27 Jun 2000 18:54:18 +0100, "Gradee \"The BoDee\" Ventura" <[email hidden]> wrote: >> thing I am going to do to GP3 is jump in the car and rev the motor. If the >> chasis doesn't move then I'm taking the game back because obviously they >> didn't factor in all the physics. I might just give it a chance too! >Firstly, waht are you talking about? Of course the chassis will move if you >rev it. It will not if it's in neutral. I think if this isn't modeled in a I think he might have been meaning on neutral :)

> Firstly, waht are you talking about? Of course the chassis will move ifyou > rev it. It will not if it's in neutral. I think if this isn't modeled in a > car sim then it inda defeats the whole perpose ofmaking one dopn't you > think? > > Secondly what is the deal with taking sims back? If you buy it with the > intention of looking only to see every little fault in the game then whybuy > itin the first place? > And to add to tha there are such things as consumer laws. If a game is > bought its bought, the shop owes you nothing if you don't like it. Firstly, he MEANS in neutral! Jump into a muscle car with stock springs. Put it in neutral, now rev the baby up. The car rocks in response to the motor torque. A modern F1 is so stiffly sprung that this effect is barely noticeable, if at all. As for the deal with taking sims back, have you ever heard the expression "pig in a poke"? That's what we are doing when we buy software. You seem to have a backwards idea of just what consumer laws are about. They are to PREVENT someone from buying a pig in a poke, and are to MAKE the seller take things back. They are to protect the CONSUMER from shoddy merchandise. Would you buy a car in a shrink wrapped box? Even if you test drive the car don't you have the right to return it or demand it be put right if it's faulty? Of course you do. Just as you can return any other merchandise that's faulty, and in most cases just because you changed your mind. That's BECAUSE there are consumer laws.

Kevin Gavitt <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:ta765.12909$[email hidden]... > > > Firstly, waht are you talking about? Of course the chassis will move if > you > > rev it. It will not if it's in neutral. I think if this isn't modeled ina

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> > car sim then it inda defeats the whole perpose ofmaking one dopn't you > > think? > > > > Secondly what is the deal with taking sims back? If you buy it with the > > intention of looking only to see every little fault in the game then why > buy > > itin the first place? > > And to add to tha there are such things as consumer laws. If a game is > > bought its bought, the shop owes you nothing if you don't like it. > > Firstly, he MEANS in neutral! Jump into a muscle car with stock springs.

Put

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> it in neutral, now rev the baby up. The car rocks in response to the motor > torque. > > A modern F1 is so stiffly sprung that this effect is barely noticeable, if > at all. > > As for the deal with taking sims back, have you ever heard the expression > "pig in a poke"? That's what we are doing when we buy software. > > You seem to have a backwards idea of just what consumer laws are about.

They > are to PREVENT someone from buying a pig in a poke, and are to MAKE the > seller take things back. They are to protect the CONSUMER from shoddy > merchandise. > > Would you buy a car in a shrink wrapped box? Even if you test drive thecar

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> don't you have the right to return it or demand it be put right if it's > faulty? > > Of course you do. Just as you can return any other merchandise that's > faulty, and in most cases just because you changed your mind. > > That's BECAUSE there are consumer laws.

Erm, not exactly..... your right what you say about it protecting the consumer but EB or whoever the game is bought from have rights too you know. I mean if they screw you or something and give you a faulty product then the law kicks in and your entitled to a refund or whatever..... Some people around here seem to have this confused. Like when F12K came out, loads of people claimed that they took it back. To my knowledge there was nothing at all wrong with F12K only that it didn't live up to some peoples great expectations..... the law doesn't kick in there...... the only thing that kicks in is a sales assistant who just takes it back because he couldn't be bothered listening to your moaning:-)

I'm so pleased my original post generated so much discussion:) Personally I am not expecting too much from GP3.....but I can hope:) Jan Verschueren <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> Now there's a recipe for a fight if I ever saw one. Lol... perish the > thought! > > Jan. > =--- > Wolfe wrote... > > <snip>perhaps if someone could introduce Dave > > Kaemmer to Geoff Crammond we could really make > > some progress!....any thoughts? > > >

The consumer protection act basically states that "a product must be suitable for the purpose it was purchased, if not you may demand a repair, refund or exchange" This also applies to items which may develop a fault within a reasonable time of purchase. If you buy say F1 2000 and it won't run satisfactorily on your PC even though your PC meets the specification stated on the box then it is unsuitable for the purpose it was purchased and you have a right to demand an exchange or refund. I'm not sure exactly what the definition of reasonable is, that's where the lawyers / solicitors come in :) I suppose technically if you buy an F1 sim and then decide you don't think it represents a reasonable simulation of F1 then it is unsuitable. ( I'm not saying I think F1 2000 does not represent a reasonable simulation of F1 <G>) Anyway many stores now accept returns for a refund for any reason :) -- Ian P <email address invalid due to spam Gradee "The BoDee" Ventura <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:8jb8eg$6l9$[email hidden]... > Erm, not exactly..... your right what you say about it protecting the > consumer but EB or whoever the game is bought from have rights too you know. > I mean if they screw you or something and give you a faulty product then the > law kicks in and your entitled to a refund or whatever..... > > Some people around here seem to have this confused. > Like when F12K came out, loads of people claimed that they took it back. To > my knowledge there was nothing at all wrong with F12K only that it didn't > live up to some peoples great expectations..... the law doesn't kick in > there...... the only thing that kicks in is a sales assistant who just takes > it back because he couldn't be bothered listening to your moaning:-) > >

IMHO you should be able to return something if you don't like it. No questions asked. I tend to purchase from merchants who share this opinion. As far as "legal rights". We are talking about 50 bucks here. How much is your time worth? Chris H. On Tue, 27 Jun 2000 23:41:19 +0100, "Ian P" <[email hidden]> wrote:

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>The consumer protection act basically states that "a product must be >suitable for the purpose it was purchased, if not you may demand a repair, >refund or exchange" This also applies to items which may develop a fault >within a reasonable time of purchase. >If you buy say F1 2000 and it won't run satisfactorily on your PC even >though your PC meets the specification stated on the box then it is >unsuitable for the purpose it was purchased and you have a right to demand >an exchange or refund. >I'm not sure exactly what the definition of reasonable is, that's where the >lawyers / solicitors come in :) >I suppose technically if you buy an F1 sim and then decide you don't think >it represents a reasonable simulation of F1 then it is unsuitable. ( I'm not >saying I think F1 2000 does not represent a reasonable simulation of F1 <G>) > >Anyway many stores now accept returns for a refund for any reason :) > >-- >Ian P ><email address invalid due to spam > > >Gradee "The BoDee" Ventura <[email hidden]> wrote in message >news:8jb8eg$6l9$[email hidden]... >> Erm, not exactly..... your right what you say about it protecting the >> consumer but EB or whoever the game is bought from have rights too you >know. >> I mean if they screw you or something and give you a faulty product then >the >> law kicks in and your entitled to a refund or whatever..... >> >> Some people around here seem to have this confused. >> Like when F12K came out, loads of people claimed that they took it back. >To >> my knowledge there was nothing at all wrong with F12K only that it didn't >> live up to some peoples great expectations..... the law doesn't kick in >> there...... the only thing that kicks in is a sales assistant who just >takes >> it back because he couldn't be bothered listening to your moaning:-) >> >> > >

In article <kMe65.14406$[email hidden]>, "Kevin Gavitt" <[email hidden]> writes: >Pig in a poke. "Poke" is an archaic word for bag. A shyster would often >attempt to sell someone a pig, but not let them actually see or examine the >pig. Often the pig turned out, upon examination, to be nothing but a stray >cat. Hence the phrase "Let the cat out of the bag", meaning to expose a >secret, comes from the exact transaction. > No kidding? Wow, you learn something new every day.. :) Eldred -- Tiger Stadium R.I.P. 1912-1999 Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett GPL hcp. +70.45 Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

In article <CNQ55.1510$[email hidden]>, "Wolfe" <[email hidden]> writes: >Just wondering....after the fuss about GP3 dies down will we all be driving >GP3 for 2 years straining to get .1sec quicker?I don't see why not? It's still a competition...

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> I suspect not....my best >guess is that GPL is of a standard that we are unlikely to see again for a >long time. Personally I'd love to drive current F1 cars with the same sort >of physics accuracy as GPL....perhaps if someone could introduce Dave >Kaemmer to Geoff Crammond we could really make some progress!....any >thoughts? >

A Kaemmer/Crammond project? We have wood... :) Seriously, I'd think that egos would get in the way... Eldred -- Tiger Stadium R.I.P. 1912-1999 Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett GPL hcp. +70.45 Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

> "Forget virtual reality, this is the real deal... > This game includes every aspect of the real grand prix > experience..." The GP2 box text always amused me because it started out by telling us that it "is not a game", then proceeded to say what "the game" includes! :-) -- Cheers! Graeme Nash

The chassis doesn't move when you rev the engine in an F1 car. At least it didn't in the Tyrell I drove a year ago. Damian. Vintook <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:NY%55.108467$[email hidden]... > People are still going to judge them on an even level. Personally thefirst > thing I am going to do to GP3 is jump in the car and rev the motor. If the > chasis doesn't move then I'm taking the game back because obviously they > didn't factor in all the physics. I might just give it a chance too!heheh.

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> > Vintook > > "RCFUN2" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > Lets give GP3 a try before we judje it. GP3 WILL NOT feel the same as > GPL. > > The cars are from defferent eras. > > > > Steven > >

Does this mean we can demand a repair of SOS??? Jens On Tue, 27 Jun 2000 23:41:19 +0100, "Ian P" <[email hidden]> wrote: >The consumer protection act basically states that "a product must be >suitable for the purpose it was purchased, if not you may demand a repair, >refund or exchange" This also applies to items which may develop a fault<snip> --------------------------------------------- [email hidden] Remove "NOSPAM" before using my email-address JensSchumi homepage at http://members.xoom.com/JensSchu/ Racing simulation, esp. GPL Logitech Wingman FF optimization Classic cars, esp. Morris Minor Radio controlled airplanes

On Tue 27 Jun 2000 05:27:41am, Dave Henrie wrote: > a private effort is underway for that...<snip> I'm delighted to hear that. How soon before a public website is up? -- David. (GPLRank handicap: +39.92) "After all, a mere thousand yards - such a harmless little knoll, really." (Raymond Mays on Shelsley Walsh)

> Erm, not exactly..... your right what you say about it protecting the > consumer but EB or whoever the game is bought from have rights too youknow. > I mean if they screw you or something and give you a faulty product thenthe > law kicks in and your entitled to a refund or whatever..... EB is protected only by contract law and the commercial code. In this case you are being asked, as a consumer, to buy a pig in a poke. You have to make the purchase BEFORE you are allowed to determine whether it meets your satisfaction. The ONLY way to test it at all is FIRST make the purchase. Consumer law is specifically designed to protect the purchaser from just such a situation. It is the very situation the very first consumer laws were to prevent. Pig in a poke. "Poke" is an archaic word for bag. A shyster would often attempt to sell someone a pig, but not let them actually see or examine the pig. Often the pig turned out, upon examination, to be nothing but a stray cat. Hence the phrase "Let the cat out of the bag", meaning to expose a secret, comes from the exact transaction. Software is a pig. Sometimes literally. But it is in a bag. The shrinkwrap. You arn't allowed to even LOOK at what you are buying until you have already bought it. How do you suppose these people are supposed to KNOW whether they like the game or not when they buy it?

In article <8jbarl$l86$[email hidden]>, [email hidden] says...

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> >The consumer protection act basically states that "a product must be >suitable for the purpose it was purchased, if not you may demand a repair, >refund or exchange" This also applies to items which may develop a fault >within a reasonable time of purchase. >I suppose technically if you buy an F1 sim and then decide you don't think >it represents a reasonable simulation of F1 then it is unsuitable.

Of course it depends on how the game is advertised. If the box says it is a 100% realistic simulation, then that is a rather different situation than a box that describes the software as a 'really good game' Taking a look at the GP2 box, it says: "Forget virtual reality, this is the real deal... This game includes every aspect of the real grand prix experience..." Therefore, we should be able to take it back if it doesnt include grid girls. ;) Of course this doesnt apply to reality. Any good lawyer could easily point out that since anyone reading this newsgroup has read enough to know what GP2 is like, then they reasonably ought to know what the GP3 product will be like before buying it.

On Tue, 27 Jun 2000 04:27:41 GMT, "Dave Henrie" <[email hidden]> wrote: > a private effort is underway for that...we've had wet rain tracks with >N2/99 for a couple of years with the Touring car patch(tptcc) shouldn't be >too hard to at least hack the track settings....Now SPRAY and puddles >etc...thats another story. Does anybody have the url for me from the site which features the wet mosport track pictures? Lost my bookmarks after I installed Windows ME :( Andre

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> >-- >dave henrie >Team Backmarker >#55b Dodge Stratus Super Touring Car >TPTCC >"David Buttery" <[email hidden]> wrote in >message news:[email hidden]... >> On Mon 26 Jun 2000 11:27:46pm, Wolfe wrote: >> >> <snip> >> >perhaps if someone could introduce Dave Kaemmer to Geoff >> >Crammond we could really make some progress!....any thoughts? >> >> Maybe we could get wet weather into GPL... >> >> -- >> David. (GPLRank handicap: +39.92) >> "After all, a mere thousand yards - such a harmless little knoll, >> really." >> (Raymond Mays on Shelsley Walsh) > >

Gradee \"The BoDee\" Ventura <[email hidden]> wrote: : Vintook <[email hidden]> wrote in message : news:NY%55.108467$[email hidden]... :> People are still going to judge them on an even level. Personally the : first :> thing I am going to do to GP3 is jump in the car and rev the motor. If the :> chasis doesn't move then I'm taking the game back because obviously they :> didn't factor in all the physics. I might just give it a chance too! : heheh. : Firstly, waht are you talking about? Of course the chassis will move if you : rev it. It will not if it's in neutral. I think the poster was under the impression that a modern F1 car would rock about on its suspension like a 67 car due to torque from revving a car in neutral. I think actually that's pretty unlikely to happen in reality or in a sim. The modern car has stiffer suspension. -- Richard G. Clegg Only the mind is waving Networks and Non-Linear Dynamics Group Dept. of Mathematics, Uni. of York UPDATED WWW: http://manor.york.ac.uk/

On Wed, 28 Jun 2000 09:05:16 GMT, [email hidden] (JS) wrote: >Does this mean we can demand a repair of SOS??? I just checked the code from SoS, and guess what, the physics from Sos37 are 100% realistic! Andre

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> >Jens > >On Tue, 27 Jun 2000 23:41:19 +0100, "Ian P" <[email hidden]> wrote: > >>The consumer protection act basically states that "a product must be >>suitable for the purpose it was purchased, if not you may demand a repair, >>refund or exchange" This also applies to items which may develop a fault ><snip> >--------------------------------------------- >[email hidden] >Remove "NOSPAM" before using my email-address > >JensSchumi homepage at http://members.xoom.com/JensSchu/ >Racing simulation, esp. GPL >Logitech Wingman FF optimization >Classic cars, esp. Morris Minor >Radio controlled airplanes

I agree, that's why I buy my games from shops with a return policy, my time is priceless, I need all I can get to be competitive in GPL ;) It's about �30 in this country by the way <G> -- Ian P <email address invalid due to spam <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > IMHO you should be able to return something if you don't like it. No > questions asked. I tend to purchase from merchants who share this > opinion. As far as "legal rights". We are talking about 50 bucks > here. How much is your time worth?

Comments below : -------��� -- Ian P <email address invalid due to spam Andre Warringa <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > On Wed, 28 Jun 2000 09:05:16 GMT, [email hidden] (JS) wrote: > > >Does this mean we can demand a repair of SOS??? You'd think so !! :) > > I just checked the code from SoS, and guess what, the physics from > Sos37 are 100% realistic! You're just winding up DGF <G>

Kevin Gavitt <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:kMe65.14406$[email hidden]...

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> > > Erm, not exactly..... your right what you say about it protecting the > > consumer but EB or whoever the game is bought from have rights too you > know. > > I mean if they screw you or something and give you a faulty product then > the > > law kicks in and your entitled to a refund or whatever..... > > EB is protected only by contract law and the commercial code. > > In this case you are being asked, as a consumer, to buy a pig in a poke.

You > have to make the purchase BEFORE you are allowed to determine whether it > meets your satisfaction. The ONLY way to test it at all is FIRST make the > purchase. > > Consumer law is specifically designed to protect the purchaser from just > such a situation. It is the very situation the very first consumer lawswere > to prevent. > > Pig in a poke. "Poke" is an archaic word for bag. A shyster would often > attempt to sell someone a pig, but not let them actually see or examinethe > pig. Often the pig turned out, upon examination, to be nothing but a stray > cat. Hence the phrase "Let the cat out of the bag", meaning to expose a > secret, comes from the exact transaction. > > Software is a pig. Sometimes literally. But it is in a bag. Theshrinkwrap. > You arn't allowed to even LOOK at what you are buying until you havealready > bought it. > > How do you suppose these people are supposed to KNOW whether they like the > game or not when they buy it? That is not the point. There is that trouble with games alright that you don't know what your getting. But...... I find it utterly crazy to hear a lot of these posts saying something like: "I loaded up F12K, did 2 laps and took it straight back". That is ridiculous. As mentioned before some shops are quite happy to accept something back now if your not happy with it, probably because of some many confused consumers bringing back perfectly good CD's. The point is..... the Computer Game shop is under no obligation what so ever to refund you because you dislike the game. You bought it, thats it! But as mentioned before I think that the good hearted policy of some stores to take back "good" CD's is simply because they can't be bothered to have some fool waste their time talk about the frame rate and what a super PC they have and so on..... All I'm saying is that some people have this whole Consumer policy backwards. A broken CD, your entitled to a refund, you don't like what's on the C, you're *NOT*!

"Andre Warringa" <[email hidden]> wrote > I just checked the code from SoS, and guess what, the physics from > Sos37 are 100% realistic! Hello, David ;) -- -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> -- May the Downforce be with you... -- http://www.WeRace.net -- People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world.

And here I always thought that a pig in the poke...meant....uhh,,,welll..... uhmmmm nevermind... dave henrie "EldredP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > In article <kMe65.14406$[email hidden]>, "Kevin Gavitt" > <[email hidden]> writes: > > >Pig in a poke. "Poke" is an archaic word for bag. A shyster would often > >attempt to sell someone a pig, but not let them actually see or examinethe > >pig. Often the pig turned out, upon examination, to be nothing but astray

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> >cat. Hence the phrase "Let the cat out of the bag", meaning to expose a > >secret, comes from the exact transaction. > > > > No kidding? Wow, you learn something new every day.. :) > > Eldred > -- > Tiger Stadium R.I.P. 1912-1999 > Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett > GPL hcp. +70.45 > > Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats

you > with experience... > Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

On Wed, 28 Jun 2000 15:34:08 +0100, "Ian P" <[email hidden]> wrote: >> I just checked the code from SoS, and guess what, the physics from >> Sos37 are 100% realistic! > >You're just winding up DGF <G> No really, the code is all there, it's just that they didn't enter the correct values for playabilities sake! Oh, and I also checked the code from GPL last night, and I found out that DGF was right all the time, GPL is an arcade game! The physics are not realistic at all! Andre

On Wed, 28 Jun 2000 18:28:10 +0100 Gradee \"The BoDee\" Ventura <[email hidden]> wrote: % That is not the point. There is that trouble with games alright that you % don't know what your getting. % But...... I find it utterly crazy to hear a lot of these posts saying % something like: % "I loaded up F12K, did 2 laps and took it straight back". % That is ridiculous. As mentioned before some shops are quite happy to accept % something back now if your not happy with it, probably because of some many % confused consumers bringing back perfectly good CD's. % The point is..... the Computer Game shop is under no obligation what so ever % to refund you because you dislike the game. You bought it, thats it! Some computer game shops like to be customer driven (i.e. Electronics Boutique) and want their customers to be satisfied with their purchases. It also induces people to "gamble" and maybe buy a product that they were skeptical about (only to take it home and enjoy it -- thus another sale that wouldn't have happened). And for EB, it's also good because I hardly buy any game software from anyone else that can't provide me the same satisfaction guaranteed. % But as mentioned before I think that the good hearted policy of some stores % to take back "good" CD's is simply because they can't be bothered to have % some fool waste their time talk about the frame rate and what a super PC % they have and so on..... % All I'm saying is that some people have this whole Consumer policy % backwards. A broken CD, your entitled to a refund, you don't like what's on % the C, you're *NOT*! A broken CD you are entitled to a non-broken CD, not a refund..... else many folks would just break the CD and say I need a refund.... -- **************************** Michael E. Carver ************************* Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town. [email hidden] http://www.teleport.com/~mcarver =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./. [- < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

> All I'm saying is that some people have this whole Consumer policy > backwards. A broken CD, your entitled to a refund, you don't like what'son > the C, you're *NOT*! > > You would only be correct IF.........you got to try those two laps before you bought the game. Open the bag, examine the pig. I don't see what you find so hard to understand here. If you bought a big box that had "CAR" written on the outside of it and when you got it home it turned out to contain a used Escort, and you wanted a new Corvette, you would say you don't have a right to bring it back and ask for a Corvette? What if the box was labeled "Corvette"? Once again, with software you have NO WAY to tell if it suits you, even just your mood and taste, before you buy it and take it home. This is EXACTLY the situation that engendered the first consumer protection laws. You have the RIGHT to know what it is you are buying BEFORE you buy it. If you purchase something sight unseen based on a sales claim that turns out to be untrue the transaction is LEGALLY VOID. So, set up demo machines in the stores and let me play it for an hour or two, just as I was allowed to drive my Miata for a couple of hours before I decided to buy it. Then your point would have more validity. Notice that most software licenses make that illegal. Gee, just hand over your money and pray I guess. Pretty sweet for the software company. What if I made up a pretty box and put some old piece of crappy freeware in it that didn't have anything to do with the box? I could make a killing.

In article <3959d283$[email hidden]>, "Damian Wilson" <[email hidden]> writes: >The chassis doesn't move when you rev the engine in an F1 car. At least >it didn't in the Tyrell I drove a year ago. > >Damian. You're just tryin' to piss people off from jealousy, aren't you? Well...it worked...<g> Eldred -- Tiger Stadium R.I.P. 1912-1999 Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett GPL hcp. +70.45 Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] (EldredP) wrote: > In article <3959d283$[email hidden]>, "Damian Wilson" > <[email hidden]> writes: > > >The chassis doesn't move when you rev the engine in an F1 car. Atleast > >it didn't in the Tyrell I drove a year ago. > > > >Damian. > > You're just tryin' to piss people off from jealousy, aren't you?Well...it > worked...<g> > Sorry.... couldn't resist!! ;) Must say, drive the real thing and you realise how much you're missing in a computer game. Still love GP2 and GPL though....... Damian. Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy.

In article <CNQ55.1510$[email hidden]>, "Wolfe" <[email hidden]> wrote: > Just wondering....after the fuss about GP3 dies down will we all bedriving > GP3 for 2 years straining to get .1sec quicker? I suspect not....mybest > guess is that GPL is of a standard that we are unlikely to see againfor a > long time. I tend to agree. There is something timeless about GPL that makes me beleive it will be still going strong in another two years. 1) The choice of 60's F1 cars means that we can all relate to how they behave - their dynamics are familiar to us from road cars. 2) The extraordinary attention to accuracy in the model gives you confidence that your improvements are somehow valid outside the game, no matter how ridiculous that sounds to your wife ;-) 3) The online play is remarkably robust and extremely satisfying, even if you're crap (like me) 4) The vibrant online community of private developers has greatly enhanced the original offering, without fragmenting it the way online Quake was. VROC, new tracks, d3d patch etc. They're all very high quality but crucially, they're all optional. 5) This newsgroup and online sites like "Eagle Woman's" were a great resource for me in choosing GPL in the first place, and in kitting it out. 4) It seems to me that the online racing community has reached critical mass, and it will take something quite extraordinary to supplant GPL as the sim of choice. I will buy GP3 and I'm sure I'll enjoy it. I'm looking forward to being Damon Hill at Spa 98 ;-) But I can't see it kicking GPL off any hard disks. I beleive it's time for Sierra to re-release GPL patched to 1.2 with D3D and bundled VROC client. What they will be offering is easy access to the best online gaming experience. They've put GPL in pole position, but they need to make it easier for new customers to buy and enjoy it to the full. Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy.

M Connolly <[email hidden]> wrote: : I tend to agree. There is something timeless about GPL that makes me : beleive it will be still going strong in another two years. : 1) The choice of 60's F1 cars means that we can all relate to how they : behave - their dynamics are familiar to us from road cars. Where in ghods name did you buy your road car so that I can avoid it. The idea of a road car being sold to the public that it was physically impossible for the best driver around to keep on the road for the duration of a six hour drive frankly scares me :-) -- Richard G. Clegg Only the mind is waving Networks and Non-Linear Dynamics Group Dept. of Mathematics, Uni. of York UPDATED WWW: http://manor.york.ac.uk/

M Connolly <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:8jprkj$ac2 > > I will buy GP3 and I'm sure I'll enjoy it. I'm looking forward to > being Damon Hill at Spa 98 ;-) But I can't see it kicking GPL off > any hard disks. I can't wait for GP3, I even re-installed GP2 to get into the groove of racing again. I didn't ever get into GPL. It took too long for me to get into. GP2 and I hope GP3 as well were simple for me to get into and race, and have fun. With GPL you'd think it was a real car, and not a sim.... Tom -- -- Tom Cosgrave [email hidden] http://www.tomcosgrave.com --> Did you have a good world when you died, enough to base a movie on? --Jim Morrison

Richard G Clegg wrote:

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> > M Connolly <[email hidden]> wrote: > > : I tend to agree. There is something timeless about GPL that makes me > : beleive it will be still going strong in another two years. > > : 1) The choice of 60's F1 cars means that we can all relate to how they > : behave - their dynamics are familiar to us from road cars. > > Where in ghods name did you buy your road car so that I can avoid it. > The idea of a road car being sold to the public that it was physically > impossible for the best driver around to keep on the road for the > duration of a six hour drive frankly scares me :-)

I don't think (and hope), anybody is driving his road car on the edge as they do in GPL. When I drive slowly in GPL, it feels quite like driving my bouncy US-built Nissan Sentra... ;^) l8er ronny -- |\ _,,,---,,_ I want to die like my Grandfather, ZZZzz /,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,_ in his sleep. |,4- ) )-,_. ,\ ( `'-' Not like the people in his car, '---''(_/--' `-'\_) screaming their heads off!

On Tue, 4 Jul 2000 00:59:43 +0100, "Tom Cosgrave" <[email hidden]> wrote:

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> >M Connolly <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:8jprkj$ac2 >> >> I will buy GP3 and I'm sure I'll enjoy it. I'm looking forward to >> being Damon Hill at Spa 98 ;-) But I can't see it kicking GPL off >> any hard disks. > >I can't wait for GP3, I even re-installed GP2 to get into the groove of >racing again. >I didn't ever get into GPL. It took too long for me to get into. GP2 and I >hope GP3 as well were simple for me to get into and race, and have fun. > >With GPL you'd think it was a real car, and not a sim....

Retry it and don't leave 2nd gear and drive that way around the circuit a few times. Than try to go faster. At a certain point it is really possible to just cruise around at a quite fast speed, without spinning everywhere. The car can be thrown around quite much, but you shouldn't start out by wanting to get a world record in 2 days. That will be TOO frustrating, oh yes. :) Ruud van Gaal MarketGraph / MachTech: http://www.marketgraph.nl Art: http://www.marketgraph.nl/gallery