Don't forget to rename core.ini.sample to core.ini
On Tue, 27 Jun 2000 05:48:11 -0700, Phil Lee
<[email hidden]> wrote:
Enabling force feedback in GPL and self-centring
A new Microsoft force-feedback wheel owner asked how to enable FF in GPL, and Phil Lee explained that it requires the 1.2.0.1 patch and copying settings from core.ini.sample into core.ini. A side debate followed over whether real cars self-centre, with posters explaining the role of caster and tyre forces in a moving car. Later posters shared links to FF guides and latency settings to reduce oscillation.
Automated summary.
Okay
I just been out to buy a microsoft force feedback wheel to play this GOD of
a game GPL now that the patch for D3D is out.
But how do I get force feedback to work ?
First you need to download version 1.2.0.1 of GPL. This can be
found here:
http://www.papy.com/gpl/download.html
Once you have installed version 1.2, you will have a file in
your GPL directory called core.ini.sample. This contains
exmples of the lines required to enable force feedback.In this
file you will find the following lines:
[ Joy ]
allow_force_feedback = 1
force_feedback_damping = 5.0
force_feedback_latency = 0.025
max_steering_torque = 225
You should copy these lines and paste them into the file
core.ini in the GPL directory. This will enable force
feedback. The numbers can be changed to alter the force
feedback effects in GPL. They are very subjective settings and
depend on what wheel you are using. The settings are explained
in the file readme12.txt which comes with the version 1.2 patch.
You will also have to alter the settings for the wheel in the
Game Controllers control panel applet. The first thing you will
want to do is switch off the centring spring force. Everything
else is a matter of personal preference.
If you need any more help just shout. There are plenty of
people here willing to help.
Cheers
Phil
GPL Rank: +66.44
http://www.youpies.co.uk
Got questions? Get answers over the phone at Keen.com.
Up to 100 minutes free!
http://www.keen.com
> You will also have to alter the settings for the wheel in the
> Game Controllers control panel applet. The first thing you will
> want to do is switch off the centring spring force. Everything
> else is a matter of personal preference.
Nope. EVERYTHING is a matter of personal preference. Myself, I can't drive
as well without the proper self centering force. Real cars have them. In '67
Grand Prix cars the self centering force was actually quite high.
Check out a picture of Stirling Moss. Stirling is not a large man, but boy
oh boy those arm muscles!
yeah, but does it auto center when not moving? Or does it just center
naturally... which is done in GPL FF without the centering spring?
Kevin Gavitt <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:fA765.13028$[email hidden]...
'67
> Grand Prix cars the self centering force was actually quite high.
>
> Check out a picture of Stirling Moss. Stirling is not a large man, but boy
> oh boy those arm muscles!
>
>
Quoted text (8 lines)
> > > You will also have to alter the settings for the wheel in the > > Game Controllers control panel applet. The first thing you will > > want to do is switch off the centring spring force. Everything > > else is a matter of personal preference. > > Nope. EVERYTHING is a matter of personal preference. Myself, I can't drive > as well without the proper self centering force. Real cars have them. In
"Kai Fuller" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:4W865.281215$[email hidden]...
> yeah, but does it auto center when not moving? Or does it just center
> naturally... which is done in GPL FF without the centering spring?
You know, I really don't know. I've never driven GPL without the car
moving.
Kevin Gavitt wrote in message ...
Hmm .. I think Kai was referring to your remark that real cars have self
centering force. They don't. Go sit in your non-moving car, turn the wheel
to full lock and watch it carefully. Does it return to center position?
Didn't think so ..
Hena
Quoted text (8 lines)
> >"Kai Fuller" <[email hidden]> wrote in message >news:4W865.281215$[email hidden]... >> yeah, but does it auto center when not moving? Or does it just center >> naturally... which is done in GPL FF without the centering spring? > >You know, I really don't know. I've never driven GPL without the car >moving.On Tue, 27 Jun 2000 19:50:35 GMT, "Kevin Gavitt"
<[email hidden]> wrote:
Never seen one. A real car with centering force. And boy, would I hate
it if I was parking! ;-)
No really, self-centering is implicit when driving. Just like driving
a bike and not falling over. I've never seen a car where I would turn
the wheel and it would come back by itself! (while standing still
ofcourse). And the fact that it does center while driving has nothing
to do with a spring, like the Switch in the control panel does. That's
just there to emulate the effect of centering while driving for games
that don't have FF support.
Ruud van Gaal
MarketGraph / MachTech: http://www.marketgraph.nl
Art: http://www.marketgraph.nl/gallery
Quoted text (9 lines)
> >> You will also have to alter the settings for the wheel in the >> Game Controllers control panel applet. The first thing you will >> want to do is switch off the centring spring force. Everything >> else is a matter of personal preference. > >Nope. EVERYTHING is a matter of personal preference. Myself, I can't drive >as well without the proper self centering force. Real cars have them. In '67 >Grand Prix cars the self centering force was actually quite high.
> Hmm .. I think Kai was referring to your remark that real cars have self
> centering force. They don't. Go sit in your non-moving car, turn the wheel
> to full lock and watch it carefully. Does it return to center position?
> Didn't think so ..
>
I am aware of this, and my response to him was to indicate that I am talking
about the forces in a moving car.
I don't care how the forces feel in GPL when the car isn't moving, no matter
how unrealistic they are.
I am aware of all this. However, I still cannot get GPL to give me anything
like realistic self centering forces while MOVING without invoking some
return spring forces.
By the way, you're actually wrong about there being NO self centering forces
in a stationary car. They're just below threshold :)
There are no self centering forces in a real car. What you feel is the
rubber from the tires stretching. Try it while the car is up on jacks
without the wheels touching the ground. You may get some return to center
but that's would be from the power steering pump if you get any at all.
However you wouldn't get any at all in a manual steering car. If you do it
would only be from the weight of the wheels due to turning axes inclination.
Jim D.
Kevin Gavitt wrote in message ...
>I am aware of all this. However, I still cannot get GPL to give me anything
>like realistic self centering forces while MOVING without invoking some
>return spring forces.
>
>By the way, you're actually wrong about there being NO self centeringforces
>in a stationary car. They're just below threshold :)
>
>
Actually positive caster will give self centering forces when moving. Like
the way a motorcycle has more when it has stretched forks.
Jim Dombrowski wrote in message ...
>There are no self centering forces in a real car. What you feel is the
>rubber from the tires stretching. Try it while the car is up on jacks
>without the wheels touching the ground. You may get some return to center
>but that's would be from the power steering pump if you get any at all.
>However you wouldn't get any at all in a manual steering car. If you do it
>would only be from the weight of the wheels due to turning axesinclination.
>
> Jim D.
>
>Kevin Gavitt wrote in message ...
>>I am aware of all this. However, I still cannot get GPL to give meanything
Quoted text (10 lines)
>>like realistic self centering forces while MOVING without invoking some >>return spring forces. >> >>By the way, you're actually wrong about there being NO self centering >forces >>in a stationary car. They're just below threshold :) >> >> > >well if the force feedback is done right, auto centering shouldn't be on,
the wheel should center sue to the games tires centering when moving. I
thought that GPL does this?
Kevin Gavitt <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:gRo65.15403$[email hidden]...
>
> > Hmm .. I think Kai was referring to your remark that real cars have self
> > centering force. They don't. Go sit in your non-moving car, turn thewheel
> > to full lock and watch it carefully. Does it return to center position?
> > Didn't think so ..
> >
>
> I am aware of this, and my response to him was to indicate that I amtalking
> about the forces in a moving car.
>
> I don't care how the forces feel in GPL when the car isn't moving, nomatter
> how unrealistic they are.
>
>
Jim Dombrowski wrote in message ...
>There are no self centering forces in a real car.
Wrong. The Positive Caster angle in the front
suspension centers the steering as the car rolls
if it is set correctly.
>What you feel is the
>rubber from the tires stretching. Try it while the car is up on jacks
>without the wheels touching the ground. You may get some return to center
>but that's would be from the power steering pump if you get any at all.
The pump itself does not center the steering system.
It merely supplies pressurized PS Fluid which is then
directed by the control valve to one side or the other
of the RAM (Rack & Pinion system)
>However you wouldn't get any at all in a manual steering car. If you do it
>would only be from the weight of the wheels due to turning axesinclination.
CASTER. Like I said.
Steve@RXspeed7
Jim Dombrowski wrote in message ...
>Actually positive caster will give self centering forces when moving. Like
>the way a motorcycle has more when it has stretched forks.
EXACTLY !! ALL racecars employ high rates of
positive caster. Even some road cars like
Mercedes Benz are up around 10 degrees +.
Steve@RXspeed7
"Kai Fuller" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:Tgv65.242937$[email hidden]...
> well if the force feedback is done right, auto centering shouldn't be on,
> the wheel should center sue to the games tires centering when moving. I
> thought that GPL does this?
It's perfectly possible, and in light of this thread perhaps even probable,
that I just need to play around with it somemore.
"Jim Dombrowski" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:itr65.15437$[email hidden]...
> There are no self centering forces in a real car. What you feel is the
> rubber from the tires stretching. Try it while the car is up on jacks
> without the wheels touching the ground. You may get some return to center
> but that's would be from the power steering pump if you get any at all.
> However you wouldn't get any at all in a manual steering car. If you do it
> would only be from the weight of the wheels due to turning axesinclination.
So now we've gone from driving a car motionless to driving a car up on
jacks?
Look, I KNOW there are no SPRING return forces in a car. I know that if you
put it up on jacks and turn the wheel it won't center. Although it probably
WILL "relax" somewhat, even though it has no power steering.
I could show you a car that sitting motionless, * on the ground under its
own weight* has quite prominant self centering forces. In fact, most modern
Grand Prix cars fall into this catagory.
Also, the twisting of the rubber IS a selfcentering spring effect :)
Your original statement sounded like you thought self centering was
something that was deliberately designed into the car like some sort of
springs or something.
JIm D.
Kevin Gavitt wrote in message ...
it
Quoted text (8 lines)
> >"Jim Dombrowski" <[email hidden]> wrote in message >news:itr65.15437$[email hidden]... >> There are no self centering forces in a real car. What you feel is the >> rubber from the tires stretching. Try it while the car is up on jacks >> without the wheels touching the ground. You may get some return to center >> but that's would be from the power steering pump if you get any at all. >> However you wouldn't get any at all in a manual steering car. If you doQuoted text (17 lines)
>> would only be from the weight of the wheels due to turning axes >inclination. > >So now we've gone from driving a car motionless to driving a car up on >jacks? > >Look, I KNOW there are no SPRING return forces in a car. I know that if you >put it up on jacks and turn the wheel it won't center. Although it probably >WILL "relax" somewhat, even though it has no power steering. > >I could show you a car that sitting motionless, * on the ground under its >own weight* has quite prominant self centering forces. In fact, most modern >Grand Prix cars fall into this catagory. > >Also, the twisting of the rubber IS a selfcentering spring effect :) > >Excuse my ignorance, but what is a positive caster angle?
Couldn't find in my small dictionary. :(
Thanks
Cyrille Vanlerberghe
PIRATE(131,33,17) <[email hidden]> a �crit dans le message :
iCx65.21278$[email hidden]...
>
> Jim Dombrowski wrote in message ...
> >Actually positive caster will give self centering forces when moving.Like
Quoted text (10 lines)
> >the way a motorcycle has more when it has stretched forks. > > > EXACTLY !! ALL racecars employ high rates of > positive caster. Even some road cars like > Mercedes Benz are up around 10 degrees +. > > Steve@RXspeed7 > >Old citroens used to self center..very spooky to......
Sudesh
Ruud van Gaal wrote:
Quoted text (27 lines)
> > On Tue, 27 Jun 2000 19:50:35 GMT, "Kevin Gavitt" > <[email hidden]> wrote: > > > > >> You will also have to alter the settings for the wheel in the > >> Game Controllers control panel applet. The first thing you will > >> want to do is switch off the centring spring force. Everything > >> else is a matter of personal preference. > > > >Nope. EVERYTHING is a matter of personal preference. Myself, I can't drive > >as well without the proper self centering force. Real cars have them. In '67 > >Grand Prix cars the self centering force was actually quite high. > > Never seen one. A real car with centering force. And boy, would I hate > it if I was parking! ;-) > No really, self-centering is implicit when driving. Just like driving > a bike and not falling over. I've never seen a car where I would turn > the wheel and it would come back by itself! (while standing still > ofcourse). And the fact that it does center while driving has nothing > to do with a spring, like the Switch in the control panel does. That's > just there to emulate the effect of centering while driving for games > that don't have FF support. > > Ruud van Gaal > MarketGraph / MachTech: http://www.marketgraph.nl > Art: http://www.marketgraph.nl/galleryHaywood wrote in message <39713025.55373932@news>...
>Next Q.
>I want a little more feedback if the front is pushing and damping aint
>getting me there.
>Anyone out there with a wingman FF have some good numbers they can
>post? (core.ini as well as control panal)
I found these links to very useful:
http://simracing.com/alison/gpl/force.htm
http://simracingmag.com/eric6.html
http://simracingmag.com/eric7.html
Bendito;
Thanks for all the great info.
One problem, I don't have a core.ini in my GPL directory.
Found the sample.ini ?
I'm set up to show all files in explorer. (Details)
Attempting to setup wingman FF
Thanks again!
Haywood
On Tue, 27 Jun 2000 05:48:11 -0700, Phil Lee
<[email hidden]> wrote:
Quoted text (45 lines)
>First you need to download version 1.2.0.1 of GPL. This can be >found here: > >http://www.papy.com/gpl/download.html > >Once you have installed version 1.2, you will have a file in >your GPL directory called core.ini.sample. This contains >exmples of the lines required to enable force feedback.In this >file you will find the following lines: > >[ Joy ] >allow_force_feedback = 1 >force_feedback_damping = 5.0 >force_feedback_latency = 0.025 >max_steering_torque = 225 > >You should copy these lines and paste them into the file >core.ini in the GPL directory. This will enable force >feedback. The numbers can be changed to alter the force >feedback effects in GPL. They are very subjective settings and >depend on what wheel you are using. The settings are explained >in the file readme12.txt which comes with the version 1.2 patch. > >You will also have to alter the settings for the wheel in the >Game Controllers control panel applet. The first thing you will >want to do is switch off the centring spring force. Everything >else is a matter of personal preference. > >If you need any more help just shout. There are plenty of >people here willing to help. > >Cheers > >Phil > >GPL Rank: +66.44 >http://www.youpies.co.uk > > > > >Got questions? Get answers over the phone at Keen.com. >Up to 100 minutes free! >http://www.keen.com >HeHe
So I make a core.ini and put those lines in there and it works and
all.
Woohoo!
Next Q.
I want a little more feedback if the front is pushing and damping aint
getting me there.
Anyone out there with a wingman FF have some good numbers they can
post? (core.ini as well as control panal)
thanks,
haywood
On Sun, 16 Jul 2000 03:12:21 GMT, [email hidden] (Haywood) wrote:
Quoted text (62 lines)
>Thanks for all the great info. >One problem, I don't have a core.ini in my GPL directory. >Found the sample.ini ? >I'm set up to show all files in explorer. (Details) >Attempting to setup wingman FF > >Thanks again! > >Haywood > > > > >On Tue, 27 Jun 2000 05:48:11 -0700, Phil Lee ><[email hidden]> wrote: > >>First you need to download version 1.2.0.1 of GPL. This can be >>found here: >> >>http://www.papy.com/gpl/download.html >> >>Once you have installed version 1.2, you will have a file in >>your GPL directory called core.ini.sample. This contains >>exmples of the lines required to enable force feedback.In this >>file you will find the following lines: >> >>[ Joy ] >>allow_force_feedback = 1 >>force_feedback_damping = 5.0 >>force_feedback_latency = 0.025 >>max_steering_torque = 225 >> >>You should copy these lines and paste them into the file >>core.ini in the GPL directory. This will enable force >>feedback. The numbers can be changed to alter the force >>feedback effects in GPL. They are very subjective settings and >>depend on what wheel you are using. The settings are explained >>in the file readme12.txt which comes with the version 1.2 patch. >> >>You will also have to alter the settings for the wheel in the >>Game Controllers control panel applet. The first thing you will >>want to do is switch off the centring spring force. Everything >>else is a matter of personal preference. >> >>If you need any more help just shout. There are plenty of >>people here willing to help. >> >>Cheers >> >>Phil >> >>GPL Rank: +66.44 >>http://www.youpies.co.uk >> >> >> >> >>Got questions? Get answers over the phone at Keen.com. >>Up to 100 minutes free! >>http://www.keen.com >> >Haywood wrote in message <3973c395.8548361@news>...
>Thanks a whole lot.
>I tweaked and tweaked and tweaked!
>Finally went back to no FF.
>I couldn't get rid of the oscillation on center.
Yeah, I had this but fixed it. Try decreasing the latency prediction
thingy. Here it is:
force_feedback_latency = 0.103000
That's what I use instead of the .225 suggested on one of those sites.
Bendito;
Thanks a whole lot.
I tweaked and tweaked and tweaked!
Finally went back to no FF.
I couldn't get rid of the oscillation on center.
When at center, going straight, the FF kept oscillating (hunting back
and forth)
Felt good in corners though.
Again,
Thanks for the kind input all.
Haywood
On Sun, 16 Jul 2000 13:57:16 +1000, "Bendito"
<[email hidden]> wrote:
