What do you think of FILSCA?

Just wondered what people's thoughts were on the whole FILSCA thing? Good, bad, indifferent, never heard of it? Cheers. Bombshell.

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> Just wondered what people's thoughts were on the whole FILSCA thing? > > Good, bad, indifferent, never heard of it? > > Cheers. > > Bombshell. > >

I remember the start of Filsca, It seemed to me at the time that it was a bunch of guys who wanted to draw power in the sim racing world to themselves. I think filsca is good for the founders of filsca, they are people who want to be important.

"Dan_Leach" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> >> Just wondered what people's thoughts were on the whole FILSCA thing? >> >> Good, bad, indifferent, never heard of it? >> >> Cheers. >> >> Bombshell. >> >> > I remember the start of Filsca, It seemed to me at the time that it was a > bunch of guys who wanted to draw power in the sim racing world to > themselves. I think filsca is good for the founders of filsca, they are > people who want to be important. >

Who, exactly, wishes to be "unimportant"? Can someone explain to me why so many people are so suspicious and threatened by this FILSCA "mob"? What threat do they pose exactly? As long as sim companies make sims with direct IP and maybe also offer free lobbies for use by all, then what possible threat is there? My view - FILSCA ---> a good place to look for a league and a good way to see the performances of other drivers. From a leagues point of view it's a good way to advertise for free (atm at least - ooooooOOOOOOooooooo - scary stuff) and give it's drivers more exposure. Quite simply, it's all good from what I can see. All the paranoia it seems to be generating is quite amusing too! :)

I second you, Byron. FILSCA is an attempt to organize things in the sim world, in I simply cannot see why it is not a good idea. Both for league organizers and new people. Gathering loads and loads of people under the same umbrella organization is worth a lot, and can achieve things accordingly, because they have the numbers for argumentation. If the sim world was completely organized, I believe game developers and software houses would pay attention, and potentially adjust, to this organization. And would it at all be possible to implement sponsoring in our sim "sport" without a collective and huge collection of people? I don't think so. Organizing can be a great, great thing, and I have problems seing why anyone should be paranoid about it. What is the worst scenario imaginable concerning FILSCA, really? I cannot come up with any! ---Asgeir--- Byron Forbes wrote:

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> "Dan_Leach" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > >>>Just wondered what people's thoughts were on the whole FILSCA thing? >>> >>>Good, bad, indifferent, never heard of it? >>> >>>Cheers. >>> >>>Bombshell. >>> >>> >> >>I remember the start of Filsca, It seemed to me at the time that it was a >>bunch of guys who wanted to draw power in the sim racing world to >>themselves. I think filsca is good for the founders of filsca, they are >>people who want to be important. >> > > > Who, exactly, wishes to be "unimportant"? > > Can someone explain to me why so many people are so suspicious and > threatened by this FILSCA "mob"? What threat do they pose exactly? As long > as sim companies make sims with direct IP and maybe also offer free lobbies > for use by all, then what possible threat is there? > > My view - FILSCA ---> a good place to look for a league and a good way > to see the performances of other drivers. From a leagues point of view it's > a good way to advertise for free (atm at least - ooooooOOOOOOooooooo - scary > stuff) and give it's drivers more exposure. Quite simply, it's all good from > what I can see. All the paranoia it seems to be generating is quite amusing > too! :) > >

> Just wondered what people's thoughts were on the whole FILSCA thing? > > Good, bad, indifferent, never heard of it? > Organization, like fast women and rich food, is a good thing in moderation. I agree with many of Asgeir's thoughts about FILSCA's potential benefit however I fail to see how they'll reach critical mass required to achieve them in their current form. Their first white paper, http://www.filsca.com/1000253/812 discussed raising Sim racing to a professional level and the need for a sanctioning body to govern/promote the sport towards that end. Their current mission statement, http://www.filsca.com/1000253/386 has dropped the "pro" aspect but still calls themselves a sanctioning body. While I personally feel the percentage of sim racers who are likely to "turn pro" is infinitesimally small (about the same size as the potential audience who might pay to watch), I think a sanctioning body could do many useful things for the rest of us: lobbying graphics card, wheel and sim manufacturers so that they knew what our specific issues were; setting standards and rating 3rd party tracks/mod etc. However when I suggested that line of thinking to the then-current FILSCA officers they clearly indicated that not only were they personally not interested in it (which I can accept), but that essentially that wasn't what FILSCA was all about. The latter aspect was troubling to me in what I presumed would be an association that would, after a necessary initial dictatorial period, be democratically run by it's member leagues and therefore it's ultimate goals subject to change. Perhaps coincidently most of the initial people who did the setup work for FILSCA still seem to be the principal officers (those who are still sim-racing at all). To me that says they've either been continuously re-elected thru fair and democratic processes (the results of which have been kept entirely within the private FILSCA forums) or they haven't.. Searching their public forums on the words "elect" or "election" returns virtually no results, something I'd thought they'd want to advertise at least as much as a race result. Personally I'm suspicious of why the rules/guidelines for potential member leagues aren't posted on the public side of their pages, I can't think of a good reason for keeping that close to the chest. From purely hearsay posts I understand them to be fairly draconian. I personally don't know, as even though I've exchanged emails with FILSCAers they haven't outlined the rules to me, so I won't take the matter to my league. Not that it bothers me, but I think in some people's eye's they've set themselves on their back foot to begin with by picking a very Euro-centric name. Much the same way that most NASCAR, IRL or CART teams couldn't spell FIA. If their goal is simply to maintain driver stats and produce a news letter (not that that's not a lot of work in itself), then democratic leadership is less of an issue, however I personally don't see how they can call themselves a "club" with out it. Magnus the GPLrank folk have provided an invaluable service to the community but they make no pretence about being a club. Neither service is one that any of the drivers in leagues I'm involved with have been asking for. Worst case FILSCA scenario Asgeir: Irrelevancy.

>Magnus the GPLrank folk Sorry meant to say Magnus's track database and the GPLrank folk

"mcewena" wrote: > > Just wondered what people's thoughts were on the whole FILSCA thing? > > > > Good, bad, indifferent, never heard of it? > ><snip> > Worst case FILSCA scenario Asgeir: Irrelevancy. Excellent post. I agree with most of your points but most specifically that the stated aims and the delivery are very far apart. It seems harsh to criticise because I am sure it is well meaning and the tools for leagues and newsletters are a good service which no doubt takes countless voluntary hours. However, as a sanctioning body and being a voice of sim racing it has not delivered. Possibly because there is a lack of will within the sim community and maybe it is an impossible task. What will be interesting is what happens once the Federation of International Racing and Sanctioning Trust, the FIRST in FIRST-Racing.net gets going with its aims to incorporate new technology to heighten the realism as well as a sanctioning body to launch a truly global online sport. The sim racing community is pretty niche to start with so splitting it with multiple sanctioning bodies would seem more than a bit daft. I would expect FILSCA to recognise its aims are now different and drop the sanctioning and sponsorship goals, but it remains to be seen. Cheers Tony

"Tony Rickard" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:CxPMd.7446$[email hidden]... > > "mcewena" wrote: > What will be interesting is what happens once the Federation of > International Racing and Sanctioning Trust, the FIRST in FIRST-Racing.net > gets going with its aims to incorporate new technology to heighten the > realism as well as a sanctioning body to launch a truly global onlinesport. > > The sim racing community is pretty niche to start with so splitting itwith > multiple sanctioning bodies would seem more than a bit daft. I wouldexpect > FILSCA to recognise its aims are now different and drop the sanctioningand > sponsorship goals, but it remains to be seen. > > Cheers > Tony Any more details about this "Federation"? My initial reaction to a developer of a sim also acting as a "sanctioning body" is skepticism. Why do I get the feeling it's going to be the old papy crowd crowning themselves kings of sim racing or some other nonsense. :-) -- David G Fisher

Tony Rickard wrote: > The sim racing community is pretty niche to start with so splitting it with > multiple sanctioning bodies would seem more than a bit daft. Sounds like a realistic sim to me... CART/CCWS vs. IRL GARRA vs. ALMS Bernie vs. Automakers Etc. ;-) -jde

I agree, mr. McEwan. Worst case is irrelevancy, definately. One thing *is* for sure, if there is any meaning in setting up an organization like FILSCA, it must be to achieve influence over the sim racing industry, and market value towards potential sponsors. It will be pretty much impossible to gather all under one umbrella with any other goals than these, IMO. So, in order to get that influence and market value in a niche activity, every little corner must be searched, every league, racer, organizer, affiliated people must join, simply because the numbers is the best argument in any cooperation or communication with sim developers and software houses. If we are to be met on any point, it must be because someone can make money of it. Now, in order to gather all sim racers around this globe, organizers and competitors alike you can use several models. One is to be dead serious about any aspect of sim racing, refuse working with the leasure drivers, be rigid about ruling etc etc. This model may indeed work, since people will aspire to getting under the wings of this exclusive ruling body. Needless to say, democracy will not be one of the primary goals... A different one is to be loose, large and including, gathering the flock, and then start building things from there when you have the numbers behind you. When you look at the diversity of the sim racing community it becomes apparent that the "flock" is widely spread, both geographically, in goals, and in methods. It will be impossible to gather all this under the same umbrella *unless* you have just a few goals behind which everyone will stand without hesitation. And I am sure an organization like this, including say 100 000 people, will achieve things eventually. And as soon as sim racers around the globe see that their affiliation body is working *for* them, I am sure that the racers will be liable to act *for* their affiliation body as well. Boycots of certain products spring to mind, for instance. This is essentially what we normally call "consumer power", really, where the key is the numbers. I would expect the latter model to be the vastly most efficient in this, and it may seem that this is a bit different way of doing things than FILSCA have done. I am in no position to judge or evaluate FILSCA, though, since I have little experience with them. ---Asgeir--- mcewena wrote:

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>>Just wondered what people's thoughts were on the whole FILSCA thing? >> >>Good, bad, indifferent, never heard of it? >> > > > Organization, like fast women and rich food, is a good thing in > moderation. I agree with many of Asgeir's thoughts about FILSCA's > potential benefit however I fail to see how they'll reach critical mass > required to achieve them in their current form. > > Their first white paper, http://www.filsca.com/1000253/812 discussed > raising Sim racing to a professional level and the need for a > sanctioning body to govern/promote the sport towards that end. Their > current mission statement, http://www.filsca.com/1000253/386 > has dropped the "pro" aspect but still calls themselves a sanctioning > body. > > While I personally feel the percentage of sim racers who are likely to > "turn pro" is infinitesimally small (about the same size as the > potential audience who might pay to watch), I think a sanctioning body > could do many useful things for the rest of us: lobbying graphics card, > wheel and sim manufacturers so that they knew what our specific issues > were; setting standards and rating 3rd party tracks/mod etc. > > However when I suggested that line of thinking to the then-current > FILSCA officers they clearly indicated that not only were they > personally not interested in it (which I can accept), but that > essentially that wasn't what FILSCA was all about. The latter aspect > was troubling to me in what I presumed would be an association that > would, after a necessary initial dictatorial period, be democratically > run by it's member leagues and therefore it's ultimate goals subject to > change. > > Perhaps coincidently most of the initial people who did the setup work > for FILSCA still seem to be the principal officers (those who are still > sim-racing at all). To me that says they've either been continuously > re-elected thru fair and democratic processes (the results of which > have been kept entirely within the private FILSCA forums) or they > haven't.. Searching their public forums on the words "elect" or > "election" returns virtually no results, something I'd thought they'd > want to advertise at least as much as a race result. > > Personally I'm suspicious of why the rules/guidelines for potential > member leagues aren't posted on the public side of their pages, I can't > think of a good reason for keeping that close to the chest. From > purely hearsay posts I understand them to be fairly draconian. I > personally don't know, as even though I've exchanged emails with > FILSCAers they haven't outlined the rules to me, so I won't take the > matter to my league. > > Not that it bothers me, but I think in some people's eye's they've set > themselves on their back foot to begin with by picking a very > Euro-centric name. Much the same way that most NASCAR, IRL or CART > teams couldn't spell FIA. > > If their goal is simply to maintain driver stats and produce a news > letter (not that that's not a lot of work in itself), then democratic > leadership is less of an issue, however I personally don't see how they > can call themselves a "club" with out it. Magnus the GPLrank folk have > provided an invaluable service to the community but they make no > pretence about being a club. > > Neither service is one that any of the drivers in leagues I'm involved > with have been asking for. > > Worst case FILSCA scenario Asgeir: Irrelevancy. >

"David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> > "Tony Rickard" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:CxPMd.7446$[email hidden]... > > > > "mcewena" wrote: > > What will be interesting is what happens once the Federation of > > International Racing and Sanctioning Trust, the FIRST in

FIRST-Racing.net

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> > gets going with its aims to incorporate new technology to heighten the > > realism as well as a sanctioning body to launch a truly global online > sport. > > > > The sim racing community is pretty niche to start with so splitting it > with > > multiple sanctioning bodies would seem more than a bit daft. I would > expect > > FILSCA to recognise its aims are now different and drop the sanctioning > and > > sponsorship goals, but it remains to be seen. > > > > Cheers > > Tony > > > Any more details about this "Federation"? > > My initial reaction to a developer of a sim also acting as a "sanctioning > body" is skepticism. Why do I get the feeling it's going to be the old

papy > crowd crowning themselves kings of sim racing or some other nonsense. :-) > -- > David G Fisher Hehe, bingo. >

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>"David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote > Any more details about this "Federation"? > > My initial reaction to a developer of a sim also acting as a "sanctioning > body" is skepticism. Why do I get the feeling it's going to be the old > papy > crowd crowning themselves kings of sim racing or some other nonsense. :-) > -- > David G Fisher

I prefer my own "Federation of all-things-simracing-united". I declare myself the king, the tycoon, the magnate, the baron, the czar, the emperor, the sovereign and of course the leader of this federation. All simulated leagues have to go within these rules : 1. You bow to me and my fascist rules (which are a simply copy/paste of the Filsca ones) 2. You bow to me again after the qualification (with a preset message) 3. 10% of all your income goes to me Thank you have a nice day. -- -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> -- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimago-Dominguez Corporation - helping America into the New World...

"ymenard" <[email hidden]> wrote in news:t4_Md.22995$[email hidden]:

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> I prefer my own "Federation of all-things-simracing-united". I > declare myself the king, the tycoon, the magnate, the baron, the czar, > the emperor, the sovereign and of course the leader of this > federation. All simulated leagues have to go within these rules : > > 1. You bow to me and my fascist rules (which are a simply copy/paste > of the Filsca ones) > 2. You bow to me again after the qualification (with a preset message) > 3. 10% of all your income goes to me > > > Thank you have a nice day. >

Splitter! JM

I favor rich women and fast food myself. "mcewena" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> > Just wondered what people's thoughts were on the whole FILSCA thing? > > > > Good, bad, indifferent, never heard of it? > > > > Organization, like fast women and rich food, is a good thing in > moderation. I agree with many of Asgeir's thoughts about FILSCA's > potential benefit however I fail to see how they'll reach critical mass > required to achieve them in their current form. > > Their first white paper, http://www.filsca.com/1000253/812 discussed > raising Sim racing to a professional level and the need for a > sanctioning body to govern/promote the sport towards that end. Their > current mission statement, http://www.filsca.com/1000253/386 > has dropped the "pro" aspect but still calls themselves a sanctioning > body. > > While I personally feel the percentage of sim racers who are likely to > "turn pro" is infinitesimally small (about the same size as the > potential audience who might pay to watch), I think a sanctioning body > could do many useful things for the rest of us: lobbying graphics card, > wheel and sim manufacturers so that they knew what our specific issues > were; setting standards and rating 3rd party tracks/mod etc. > > However when I suggested that line of thinking to the then-current > FILSCA officers they clearly indicated that not only were they > personally not interested in it (which I can accept), but that > essentially that wasn't what FILSCA was all about. The latter aspect > was troubling to me in what I presumed would be an association that > would, after a necessary initial dictatorial period, be democratically > run by it's member leagues and therefore it's ultimate goals subject to > change. > > Perhaps coincidently most of the initial people who did the setup work > for FILSCA still seem to be the principal officers (those who are still > sim-racing at all). To me that says they've either been continuously > re-elected thru fair and democratic processes (the results of which > have been kept entirely within the private FILSCA forums) or they > haven't.. Searching their public forums on the words "elect" or > "election" returns virtually no results, something I'd thought they'd > want to advertise at least as much as a race result. > > Personally I'm suspicious of why the rules/guidelines for potential > member leagues aren't posted on the public side of their pages, I can't > think of a good reason for keeping that close to the chest. From > purely hearsay posts I understand them to be fairly draconian. I > personally don't know, as even though I've exchanged emails with > FILSCAers they haven't outlined the rules to me, so I won't take the > matter to my league. > > Not that it bothers me, but I think in some people's eye's they've set > themselves on their back foot to begin with by picking a very > Euro-centric name. Much the same way that most NASCAR, IRL or CART > teams couldn't spell FIA. > > If their goal is simply to maintain driver stats and produce a news > letter (not that that's not a lot of work in itself), then democratic > leadership is less of an issue, however I personally don't see how they > can call themselves a "club" with out it. Magnus the GPLrank folk have > provided an invaluable service to the community but they make no > pretence about being a club. > > Neither service is one that any of the drivers in leagues I'm involved > with have been asking for. > > Worst case FILSCA scenario Asgeir: Irrelevancy. >

"ymenard" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:t4_Md.22995$[email hidden]... > >"David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote > > Any more details about this "Federation"? > > > > My initial reaction to a developer of a sim also acting as a"sanctioning > > body" is skepticism. Why do I get the feeling it's going to be the old > > papy > > crowd crowning themselves kings of sim racing or some other nonsense.:-) > > -- > > David G Fisher > > > I prefer my own "Federation of all-things-simracing-united". I declare > myself the king, the tycoon, the magnate, the baron, the czar, theemperor, > the sovereign and of course the leader of this federation. All simulated > leagues have to go within these rules : > > 1. You bow to me and my fascist rules (which are a simply copy/paste ofthe

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> Filsca ones) > 2. You bow to me again after the qualification (with a preset message) > 3. 10% of all your income goes to me > > > Thank you have a nice day. > > > > > > -- > -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard>

I think I was part of something like this for awhile not too long ago. :-o -- David G Fisher

"Steve Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:U92Nd.27991$[email hidden]... > I favor rich women and fast food myself. In a pinch (and in moderation of course) fast women and rich food are also a treat. ;o) Elrikk

ymenard wrote: > > I prefer my own "Federation of all-things-simracing-united". I declare > myself the king, the tycoon, the magnate, the baron, the czar, the emperor, > the sovereign and of course the leader of this federation. All simulated > leagues have to go within these rules : > <snip> You've got one thing going for you Frank: you're willing to post your rules in public. ;-) Ken

Bombshell wrote:

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> Just wondered what people's thoughts were on the whole FILSCA thing? > > Good, bad, indifferent, never heard of it? > > Cheers. > > Bombshell.

I think they are on the right track. First and foremost in ANY NR2003 league should be the elimination of all performance enhancing driving aids. Without a way to police specific aids the server should turn off all aids. Auto Clutch is on anyway if you use sequntial shifting and the ideal line is hardly ideal :) but all others should be turned off as they are nothing more than CHEATS to give people that use em an unfair advantage. FILSCA is so in line with my thinking that I think Im going to join :) Mitch -- Remove "nospam." to reply. SuSE 9.2 Pro KDE 3.3.2a

Bombshell wrote:

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> Just wondered what people's thoughts were on the whole FILSCA thing? > > Good, bad, indifferent, never heard of it? > > Cheers. > > Bombshell. > >

Never heard of it.

Theres one person in FILSCA i dont cant figure out(probably 'bombshell'). Someone who is more there for himself rather than sim racing. Someone for whom power and importance and a place at the very top of the community is more important than forwarding the cause of sim racing. Have i just talked myself into being kicked out of filsca?..... :)

But it's only a cheat if people are using the aids without disclosing the fact. If it was an all-rookie all-aids league it would be a level playing field. So FILSCA bans "training wheel" leagues?!? Seems counter productive to promoting the sport, sort of like banning T-ball to encourage little league.

mcewena wrote:

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> But it's only a cheat if people are using the aids without disclosing > the fact. If it was an all-rookie all-aids league it would be a level > playing field. > > So FILSCA bans "training wheel" leagues?!? Seems counter productive to > promoting the sport, sort of like banning T-ball to encourage little > league.

The problem lies within disclosure itself. No way to police whether guys use aids or not. While I dont disagree with your assessment who is a Simulation league supposed to cater to? Your bread and butter sim racer (no aids, cockpit view) or the arcade bunch? Or to use your baseball analogy, you go to see the Pro's play baseball yet when you arrive at the ballpark all you see are tee-ball players on the field and therye all using Composite triple wall bats and hitting em farther than the pros. :) Mitch -- Remove "nospam." to reply. SuSE 9.2 Pro KDE 3.3.2a

mcewena wrote: > No for the pro baseball analogy to work you'd have to use steroids in > your example ;) LOL -- Remove "nospam." to reply. SuSE 9.2 Pro KDE 3.3.2a

No for the pro baseball analogy to work you'd have to use steroids in your example ;)

Hello, I have been the one with idea for FILSCA. I am glad that nearly all posters are beyond the "FILSCA wants to take the world over" crap. :-) But let me start with that. We have always made it clear that "FILSCA is a club". Which means nothing more and nothing less than that people - league admins in this case - join to work together and to push what they do. FILSCA members take their matters into their own hands and share their ressources. Now that does not bother anyone not being a member but helps a lot those being a member. It also does not exclude anyone - everyone running a league is invited to join and may join when he/she accepts the rules. The rules are sent to any applicant (sorry Art, still no mail from you re. your league, so you do not have received the rules <g>). The whole club may get a decisive role in representing league racers if a majority of leagues have joined FILSCA. That hopefully happens as then league racers could really be represented towards sponsors, companies and towards the public. What will surely not happen is that all leagues join. The club is autonomous, and the leagues are independent. You don't see about the decision making processes and the discussions between the members because these are solely up to the members. We are not a forum bunch or a news group. You can see however some things in public, e.g. one dealing with driving aides in statistics: http://forums.filsca.com/index.php?showtopic=258 As it seems many are bothered about the statutes not being published. Well, first any league who is interested gets the rules. They are not published because they are not completely revised and because I want to ensure that its the members who decide about their rules, and that they can do it without being influenced from outside. But rather soon these papers will be published as well. BTW: some of the leagues have given the papers ot their drivers to decide about joining, you can assume that more than 1000 league racers know em, so there is no conspiracy behind. The most "draconic" issues probably are that you must not be a member in a similar club, that your league must comply with the human rights (oh well), and that you must upload all results to the FILSCA database - well, you get your standings, results from there, and your drivers get career stats, all for free, so anyone not doing and being a FILSCA member, would be insane anyway. But if it counts, I can tell you: if you are no member and not an admin interested to make your league a member, I don't see the sense in discussing them with you. FILSCA is a club of independent member leagues. It will not stand against e.g. FIRST-racing if there the big investments go into pay for play portals. FIRST-racing championships could become a FILSCA member though - that could help a lot of smaller leagues and many sim racers. But with the many great sims around I am sure there will be many league racers who deserve as much public as they can get, and that is somehting FILSCA can ensure already now. As of its midterm goals - sponsorships, prizes for bigger championship - that depends on the engagement of the leagues (this is not a commercial one-man show). But what the leagues already have now is that they can get a better visibility by being presented at the FILSCA site, and each league, each team and each driver may also put up sponsorship banners at the its pages. I think that is a good base for everyone involved. In another thread Art has asked if it weren't up to FILSCA to step in to take over RSC or compesate for the USPits. My answer is no. I believe in a community that stands on more than one feet - one for each sector. League racing is different from running a general forum (and a lot of work - all respect to Tim Wheatly , or from running a racing games newssite, and download space is again something else. All can work together and support each other. The FILSCA offers a platform for leagues, its teams, and its drivers, and in addition an advanced league management system which saves any league many hours in a season, or the work to write programs. If more work on the same everything is much simpler. ------ Some questions raised: "elections": up to the members. Currently there are no elections as there are not even enough volunteer member admins to fill, let alone to act in the necessary positions. You can also say that no one wanted my job. E.g. we lack marketing and sales - volunteers are welcome, and sales can even earn money by bringing money to the FILSCA members - please contact me. "training leagues"/"driving aides allowed": There FILSCA can be compared with the FIA. We accept all kinds of leagues - from the beginners to the pros, and there are atm 2 leagues who definitely allow for driving aides. It's their fun, and there is no problem with it. The data just do not show up in general rankings, track stats etc. because there some level must be kept, and be it for comparison reasons only, so that the rankings and stats have some value. "European name": now what is bad about European? Of course a club is more a European idea - other than companies as NASCAR or NBA. You cannot deny that the branding has worked. And you can spell it any language. You can find more info at the FILSCA site: http://www.filsca.com I may also recommend the interview in issue 1 of AutoSimSport: http://www.autosimsport.com/issues/autosimsport_1_1.zip Cheers Christoph

Christoph Schirmer wrote: >The rules are sent to any applicant (sorry Art, still no > mail from you re. your league, so you do not have received the rules > <g>). You have mail. I'll see that Art gets a copy. ;-) Ken

I have virtually no opinion of FLISCA at present, but i know that i wouldnt walk into a shop and ask for a magazine thats calling itself ASS. ;) pez "Bombshell" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:KDHMd.132$[email hidden]...

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> Just wondered what people's thoughts were on the whole FILSCA thing? > > Good, bad, indifferent, never heard of it? > > Cheers. > > Bombshell. > >

Good to hear from you directly Chris, I think regular posts from the man at the top will clear a lot of things up. >The most "draconic" issues probably are that you must not be a >member in a similar club I'm a bit curious about the thinking behind that one. Again to use a professional real life racing analogy last weekends Rolex 24 run under the "Grand Am" banner had drivers and teams from CART, IRL, nascar, alms and elms. I think it was all the better for it. Yes I suspect the elections will be a formality for quite some time, but I submit an important one. Cheers, Art.

mcewena wrote: > Good to hear from you directly Chris, I think regular posts from the > man at the top will clear a lot of things up. Actually writing here is cumbersome, but thanks ot your hints I got it working via google. Although it is irritating that new posts can take hours to be visible. It would also be much better if questions were put into the FILSCA forum because there is the central place to find information. But maybe you are willing to provide questions and as far as available answers for a FAQ, Art? :-) > > >The most "draconic" issues probably are that you must not be a > >member in a similar club > > I'm a bit curious about the thinking behind that one. Again to use a > professional real life racing analogy last weekends Rolex 24 rununder > the "Grand Am" banner had drivers and teams from CART, IRL, nascar, > alms and elms. I think it was all the better for it. We can keep the analogy Drivers often run in many leagues, as do teams, some FILSCA others not. It is just that there non-FILSCA league races are not covered in the career stats. Which is why I think it can only be good for drivers and teams to convince their leagues to join FILSCA. But lets go further: The anti-competition rule is also called the anti-cherry picking rule. Let's says cart, irl, nascar, alms, and elms are filsca members, and members in second-recing as well. in second-racing they form with their drivers to a super duper money making championship. In FILSCA they just upload their results. It should be pretty clear that a club cannot survive with such members. The members join to profit from each other, and to grow together. In the above example that is not the case, and the other FILSCA members would be betrayed, and also FILSCA itself - it had just the costs to care for their results, but not any revenues from what they gain by their membership. You can assume that they got better exposure via FILSCA as well. It does not make sense to market unreliable members. Now let's assume a third option: the above leagues join under the filsca banner with second-racing, or FILSCA and second-racing organize an event with some FILSCA member. This can be a very good opportunity for all working together. > > Yes I suspect the elections will be a formality for quite some time, > but I submit an important one. ??? > > Cheers, > > Art.

Pez wrote: > I have virtually no opinion of FLISCA at present, but i know that iwouldnt > walk into a shop and ask for a magazine thats calling itself ASS. Well, for the sake of correctness, the magazine is called AutoSimSport which makes reference to a famous auto magazine. And the official abbreviation is A.S.S. - all were very aware of how that could sound. But: it's really your freedom to make one word of it. Honi soit qui mal y pense. :-) Next, A.S.S. has just a special relationship to FILSCA, and otherwise acts on its behalf.

> Actually writing here is cumbersome, but thanks ot your hints I gotit > working via google. Although it is irritating that new posts can take > hours to be visible. Try http://groups-beta.google.com there's only about a 5 minute delay and the thread context is retained. > It would also be much better if questions were put into the FILSCA > forum because there is the central place to find information. Butmaybe > you are willing to provide questions and as far as available answers > for a FAQ, Art? :-) But wouldn't that be preaching to the choir? It's fair to say that Ken's query was prompted by the more public discussion. There's been a couple other who've replied to this thread with "never heard of them". Everybody's free to use your public forums of course but I presume there's a wider viewing audience here. > > It is just that there non-FILSCA league races are not covered in the > career stats. Which is why I think it can only be good for driversand > teams to convince their leagues to join FILSCA. >But shouldn't that be penalty enough? Sort of like when F1 used to have races that didn't count towards the championship. > second-racing they form with their drivers to a super duper money > making championship. In FILSCA they just upload their results. > > It should be pretty clear that a club cannot survive with suchmembers. Sorry I just don't see the harm, almost every hobby/sport has a group of participants who are "really serious" and another group who are "casual" where there's only a fairly small overlap between them. (such as Micheal Shumaker and joe club racer). > > > > Yes I suspect the elections will be a formality for quite sometime, > > but I submit an important one. > > ??? You may think your town mayor is a great guy, and he's so popular that he's been acclaimed 4 times in a row. But do you really want to cancel next year's election anyway? Cheers, Art.

mcewena wrote: > > Actually writing here is cumbersome, but thanks ot your hints I got > it > > working via google. Although it is irritating that new posts cantake

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> > hours to be visible. > > Try http://groups-beta.google.com there's only about a 5 minute delay > and the thread context is retained. > > > It would also be much better if questions were put into the FILSCA > > forum because there is the central place to find information. But > maybe > > you are willing to provide questions and as far as available

answers > > for a FAQ, Art? :-) > > But wouldn't that be preaching to the choir? It's fair to say that > Ken's query was prompted by the more public discussion. There's beena > couple other who've replied to this thread with "never heard ofthem". > Everybody's free to use your public forums of course but I presume > there's a wider viewing audience here. Don't get me wrong: I don't think that the FILSCA forum is preaching to the choir, but its the first place where people seek information. That is something different. And those people do maybe not google for further information. Simply a matter of power. > > > > > It is just that there non-FILSCA league races are not covered inthe > > career stats. Which is why I think it can only be good for drivers > and > > teams to convince their leagues to join FILSCA. > > > But shouldn't that be penalty enough? Sort of like when F1 used to > have races that didn't count towards the championship. Sorry, but now your are trying to change arguments. F1 would be a league, not a club or another form of sanctioning body. So if F1 is a league and if it is a member its races are stored. If the F1 drivers also race in cart in cart is no member league, then these races are not stored. Yes, that may be a penalty against the drivers but its a penalty put on the drivers by the leagues, not e.g. FILSCA.

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> > > second-racing they form with their drivers to a super duper money > > making championship. In FILSCA they just upload their results. > > > > It should be pretty clear that a club cannot survive with such > members. > > Sorry I just don't see the harm, almost every hobby/sport has a group > of participants who are "really serious" and another group who are > "casual" where there's only a fairly small overlap between them.

(such > as Micheal Shumaker and joe club racer). Again, you are talking of drivers I am talking of leagues. But to take your example: with the money the FIA gets from its special member F1 for sanctioning the FIA F1 the FIA supports - via its local member the club racer. And in the same sense I say, we don't want a member that runs for a F1 championship within another sanctioning bodies because that would betray the club racing leagues. We want that all together come to organize the F1 championship.

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> > > > > > > Yes I suspect the elections will be a formality for quite some > time, > > > but I submit an important one. > > > > ??? > > You may think your town mayor is a great guy, and he's so popular

that > he's been acclaimed 4 times in a row. But do you really want tocancel > next year's election anyway? >First of all: why are you so interested in this? - it is none of your business. Second: as soon as there are enough to candidate for all management posts there will be posts. Sad as it is, there are not even enough active members yet. > > Cheers, > Art.

That former post was sent a bit too fast, so here an edited version, sorry for the confusion. Christoph Schirmer wrote: > mcewena wrote: > > > Actually writing here is cumbersome, but thanks ot your hints Igot > > it > > > working via google. Although it is irritating that new posts can > take > > > hours to be visible. > > > > Try http://groups-beta.google.com there's only about a 5 minutedelay > > and the thread context is retained. > > > > > It would also be much better if questions were put into theFILSCA

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> > > forum because there is the central place to find information. But > > maybe > > > you are willing to provide questions and as far as available > answers > > > for a FAQ, Art? :-) > > > > But wouldn't that be preaching to the choir? It's fair to say that > > Ken's query was prompted by the more public discussion. There's

been

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> a > > couple other who've replied to this thread with "never heard of > them". > > Everybody's free to use your public forums of course but I presume > > there's a wider viewing audience here. > > Don't get me wrong: I don't think that the FILSCA forum is preaching

to > the choir, but its the first place where people seek information.That > is something different. And those people do maybe not google for > further information.Deleted "simply a matter of power", replace with: It is simply a matter of man power to collect all that and put it up on the FILSCA site. > > > > > > > > > It is just that there non-FILSCA league races are not covered in > the > > > career stats. Which is why I think it can only be good fordrivers

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> > and > > > teams to convince their leagues to join FILSCA. > > > > > But shouldn't that be penalty enough? Sort of like when F1 used to > > have races that didn't count towards the championship. > > Sorry, but now your are trying to change arguments. F1 would be a > league, not a club or another form of sanctioning body. So if F1 is a > league and if it is a member its races are stored. If the F1 drivers > also race in cart AND (instead of in) cart is no member league, then

these races are not > stored. Yes, that may be a penalty against the drivers but its a > penalty put on the drivers by the leagues, not e.g. FILSCA.But of course it is also the job of FILSCA to attract drivers and teams to convince the leagues. But so far we do not want to interfere with the leagues, and the mediation is done by the leagues themselves. Maybe that is a disadvantage of a club where the members have full power, but that is the freedom within a club in difference to a corporate approach.

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> > > > > > second-racing they form with their drivers to a super duper money > > > making championship. In FILSCA they just upload their results. > > > > > > It should be pretty clear that a club cannot survive with such > > members. > > > > Sorry I just don't see the harm, almost every hobby/sport has a

group > > of participants who are "really serious" and another group who are > > "casual" where there's only a fairly small overlap between them. > (such > > as Micheal Shumaker and joe club racer). > > Again, you are talking of drivers I am talking of leagues. But totake > your example: with the money the FIA gets from its special member F1 > for sanctioning the FIA F1 the FIA supports - via its local memberthe

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> club racer. And in the same sense I say, we don't want a member that > runs for a F1 championship within another sanctioning bodies because > that would betray the club racing leagues. We want that all together > come to organize the F1 championship. > > > > > > > > > > > Yes I suspect the elections will be a formality for quite some > > time, > > > > but I submit an important one. > > > > > > ??? > > > > You may think your town mayor is a great guy, and he's so popular > that > > he's been acclaimed 4 times in a row. But do you really want to > cancel > > next year's election anyway? > > > First of all: why are you so interested in this? - it is none of your > business. :-) > Second: as soon as there are enough to candidate for all management > posts there will be ELECTIONS (instead of: posts). Sad as it is,

there are not even enough > active members yet. > > > > > > Cheers, > > Art.

>Sorry, but now your are trying to change arguments. Yes I probably aim, it's hard to think of a real life example (part of the reason I have a hard time with the restriction). Back when CART was on the rise and looking for venues outside the US it was at least partially sanctioned by USAC (but mostly it was both league and sanctioning body), I think FIA (the sanctioning body) threatened to ban any driver and team who competed in F1 (the league) from competing in any other series. It sounded petty and vindictive then and there was real money involved.

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> > You may think your town mayor is a great guy, and he's so popular > that > > he's been acclaimed 4 times in a row. But do you really want to > cancel > > next year's election anyway? > > > First of all: why are you so interested in this? - it is none of your > business.

You're asking that leagues follow human rights but you're reserving the right to be autocratic, you don't see a contradiction there? BTW I'm not even sure how a race league could violate human rights? I suppose there are certain logistical considerations if drivers can't converse in a common language that might cause a restriction. > Second: as soon as there are enough to candidate for all management > posts there will be posts. Sad as it is, there are not even enough > active members yet. Ever read Catch-22? ;)

mcewena wrote: > >Sorry, but now your are trying to change arguments. > > Yes I probably aim, it's hard to think of a real life example (partof > the reason I have a hard time with the restriction). Back when CART > was on the rise and looking for venues outside the US it was at least > partially sanctioned by USAC (but mostly it was both league and > sanctioning body), I think FIA (the sanctioning body) threatened toban > any driver and team who competed in F1 (the league) from competing in > any other series. It sounded petty and vindictive then and there was > real money involved. I can imagine that that happened - but you have now the statutes and charter, leagues are independent, so only a league could do that (F1 in our example), and drivers could team up and complain about the league at FILSCA :-)

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> > > > You may think your town mayor is a great guy, and he's so popular > > that > > > he's been acclaimed 4 times in a row. But do you really want to > > cancel > > > next year's election anyway? > > > > > First of all: why are you so interested in this? - it is none of

your > > business. > > You're asking that leagues follow human rights but you're reservingthe > right to be autocratic, you don't see a contradiction there? I don't take the autocratic, and are you sure that human rights include elections? I don't think so, quite a few countries would not have signed them otherwise :-) No I would be happy if the club could be fully set up. But as this still is something that concerns only the members, I do not discuss this here. > > BTW I'm not even sure how a race league could violate human rights?I > suppose there are certain logistical considerations if drivers can't > converse in a common language that might cause a restriction. For example, if you exclude drivers from your league by race, or gender etc. > > > Second: as soon as there are enough to candidate for all management > > posts there will be posts. Sad as it is, there are not even enough > > active members yet. > > Ever read Catch-22? ;) Of course. Ever read the basics of a club?

"Christoph Schirmer" wrote: > It would also be much better if questions were put into the FILSCA > forum because there is the central place to find information. But maybe > you are willing to provide questions and as far as available answers > for a FAQ, Art? :-) Quite frankly if the majority of the usenet forum for sim racing haven't ever heard of FILSCA since its formation in 2001, as this thread may suggest, quite how the same organisation is going to "market sim-racing to the world" I am not sure. I don't want to appear negative as the assistance to leagues, tools provided and the recent publications have all been useful, but the aspirations of a sanctioning body acting as the "face" of our hobby just haven't been remotely realised.

"Christoph Schirmer" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> Pez wrote: >> I have virtually no opinion of FLISCA at present, but i know that i > wouldnt >> walk into a shop and ask for a magazine thats calling itself ASS. > > Well, for the sake of correctness, the magazine is called AutoSimSport > which makes reference to a famous auto magazine. And the official > abbreviation is A.S.S. - all were very aware of how that could sound. > But: it's really your freedom to make one word of it. Honi soit qui mal > y pense. :-) > > Next, A.S.S. has just a special relationship to FILSCA, and otherwise > acts on its behalf. >

It stinks!

> Christoph Schirmer wrote: > >The rules are sent to any applicant (sorry Art, still no >> mail from you re. your league, so you do not have received the rules Like leagues that wish to attract drivers, you need to make everything simple to understand and easy to join. All this under the table stuff is ridiculous - no wonder there's all this paranoia about - it looks like you're hiding something. And you are! I'd get rid of all that nonsense ASAP. As it is most league admins are probably umming and ahhing about joining anyway. Making things difficult as you do just makes them forget you and just get on with their own leagues. KISS. (ask what this means at your own risk).

Tony Rickard wrote: > "Christoph Schirmer" wrote: > > > It would also be much better if questions were put into the FILSCA > > forum because there is the central place to find information. Butmaybe > > you are willing to provide questions and as far as availableanswers > > for a FAQ, Art? :-) > > Quite frankly if the majority of the usenet forum for sim racinghaven't > ever heard of FILSCA since its formation in 2001, as this thread may > suggest, quite how the same organisation is going to "marketsim-racing to > the world" I am not sure. > > I don't want to appear negative as the assistance to leagues, toolsprovided > and the recent publications have all been useful, but the aspirationsof a > sanctioning body acting as the "face" of our hobby just haven't been > remotely realised. Yes, it's a long way. But "sanctioning body" does not mean "God", and even of them as we know are many around :-). It just means that all races of all FILSCA member leagues are "sanctioned" - and you can take this as a loose group label (e.g. it means that all leagues apply the FILSCA driving behavior code, it means that their races are featured at the FILSCA web site, that their drivers have the career stats, and that the teams get their stats, that e.g. there is volunteer who checks their results and points them to errors etc. - I do not see anything bad about it, but you better ask the member league if they see anything bad about being "sanctioned"). I think it is a great service for the drivers the teams and the leagues what is done, and I think a group of people from the community working together can achieve more - and easier and cheaper - for themselves than if they were doing everything alone, or than if they were an outside corporation - and I also think it would be good if revenues - if there are - could stay directly within the people who have the fun. You may disagree or not, but you are also not forced to join. Of course you need some "outer identification" for this as well. And if you want to stay outside, then you are not bothered. So even if you think "sanctioning body" means we are thinking we are the "gods" of simracing - which is not the case -, you can always have other "gods". :-) I think that's giving away a chance, but that is really my opinion.

You may always tell that the AutoSimSport staff: http://forums.filsca.com/index.php?showforum=54 Byron Forbes wrote: > "Christoph Schirmer" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > Pez wrote: > >> I have virtually no opinion of FLISCA at present, but i know thati > > wouldnt > >> walk into a shop and ask for a magazine thats calling itself ASS. > > > > Well, for the sake of correctness, the magazine is calledAutoSimSport > > which makes reference to a famous auto magazine. And the official > > abbreviation is A.S.S. - all were very aware of how that couldsound. > > But: it's really your freedom to make one word of it. Honi soit quimal > > y pense. :-) > > > > Next, A.S.S. has just a special relationship to FILSCA, andotherwise > > acts on its behalf. > > > > It stinks!

> > It stinks! > > That may be so, but I can agree with Christoph here, AutoSimSport is not a "FILSCA Newsletter" it is an independant magazine for the simracing community, written for the whole community and not just FILSCA member leagues. It features FILSCA race reports and results, but this is a small part of the whole. The magazine as it stands is trying to cover as broad a spread of the simracing community as we can. Jon. P.S: Anyway, this is not really anything to do with this discussion! :o)

"Bombshell" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:KDHMd.132$[email hidden]...

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> Just wondered what people's thoughts were on the whole FILSCA thing? > > Good, bad, indifferent, never heard of it? > > Cheers. > > Bombshell. >

When guys i used to race with back in 2000-2001 first mentioned the idea of a central governing body for sim racing, (which incidentally was the pre-formation of FILSCA), i looked at it as a bunch of wanna-bees trying to gain control of my leisure time hobby. I didn't like the idea then, and i don't like the idea now. I will not have a cental governing group, wether it's democratically or other-wise selected telling me how i should or shouldn't conduct myself, or my club when i/we race on-line. Ranks and other suck crap are all ego boosters for the few that like to see their names in lights. Whatever, go for it. I personally, will never allow a few so-called sim experts to in any way influence me on how i use my sims or on-line racing time. I might feel a touch more generous to the idea if a central group were democratically elected on a yearly bassis, with fully open-to-all voting, but so far, all i have seen or heard of this elite group of self-proclaimed "Kings of Sims", is their undying belief in their own holier than thou attitude. Take it or leave it, but for me, i don't need someone to tell me my rank, how good i am, how bad i am, if i am safe to drive against, if i am as slow as a snail, or as fast as lightening. Reminds me of a story... The Pied Piper comes to mind... Cheers, Ron

It also features the member leagues and the drivers, and it is part of the initial FILSCA package. You can simply see it as one activity inthat goes far beyond the FILSCA limitation to league online racing - it is one result of group work. Apart from that AutoSimSport is its own entity, and the relationship FILSCA - AutoSimSport is up to FILSCA and AutoSimSport, but surely FILSCA does not involve in the name. So you can also see it for the many forms of cooperation which are possible. Shrapnel wrote: > > > > It stinks! > > > > > > That may be so, but I can agree with Christoph here, AutoSimSport isnot a > "FILSCA Newsletter" it is an independant magazine for the simracing > community, written for the whole community and not just FILSCA member > leagues. > > It features FILSCA race reports and results, but this is a small partof the > whole. The magazine as it stands is trying to cover as broad aspread of > the simracing community as we can. > > Jon. > P.S: Anyway, this is not really anything to do with this discussion!:o)

You find the KISS versions at the FILSCA site: http://www.filsca.com/1000253/386 http://www.filsca.com/1000253/773 Next, I don't find it unsimple, but only fair not to tell you any bullshit or give you promises without providing complete information. You may call that a bad sales strategy, or not simple. This is not a company that wants to sell something, this is an adventure and an enterprise that wants to see if a large group of diverse people embedding within the sim racing community can seriously work on something. I do not want to hide that, even if that may require you to read a bit more and be more concentrated in doing so. And it is only legitimate to keep the more formal things within the members - apart from that anyone sees them before he/she joins. Should there be really a reason to worry about someone who can't even click a link to require more information? If you think there is something hidden - be happy with your conspiracy theory. But fact is: any league is invited to join, and anyone is getting all information before he/she joins. There is nothing hidden to those who are affected. And it is just good behavior and education not to wash internal clothes outside the members area. As I said: some issues in the statutes need to be revised, and there is surely no sense in publishing something where the leagues do not have had the chance to discuss this exensively. Once that is done, ít will be publicly available anyway. Byron Forbes wrote: > > Christoph Schirmer wrote: > > >The rules are sent to any applicant (sorry Art, still no > >> mail from you re. your league, so you do not have received therules > > Like leagues that wish to attract drivers, you need to makeeverything > simple to understand and easy to join. All this under the table stuffis > ridiculous - no wonder there's all this paranoia about - it lookslike > you're hiding something. And you are! I'd get rid of all thatnonsense ASAP. > > As it is most league admins are probably umming and ahhing aboutjoining > anyway. Making things difficult as you do just makes them forget youand > just get on with their own leagues. KISS. (ask what this means atyour own > risk).

Now please do me a favor, and show me where anyone involved in FILSCA has claimed to be or be part of "the kings of sims". Unlike some other ranking site we don't even claim to represent everyone. You always find a "FILSCA" prefix there. And please take a second, a minute, or even a day to think about this: you have a group of mates with whom you go out for a beer once a week. Do you think it appropriate if some one denies your right to do that, or do you think it is appropriate to call them wannabee beer wankers, or to insinuate that they drink away all the beer that the others want? A club is nothing more like that - be it that they go out for beer drinking or be it that the use some common applications, present them at a web site, have fun in racing sims, and maybe help each other with their daily work. Thank you for your consideration. Christoph Schirmer Ron Ayton wrote: > "Bombshell" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:KDHMd.132$[email hidden]... > > Just wondered what people's thoughts were on the whole FILSCAthing?

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> > > > Good, bad, indifferent, never heard of it? > > > > Cheers. > > > > Bombshell. > > > > When guys i used to race with back in 2000-2001 first mentioned the

idea of > a central governing body for sim racing, (which incidentally was the > pre-formation of FILSCA), i looked at it as a bunch of wanna-beestrying to > gain control of my leisure time hobby. I didn't like the idea then,and i > don't like the idea now. > I will not have a cental governing group, wether it's democraticallyor > other-wise selected telling me how i should or shouldn't conductmyself, or > my club when i/we race on-line. > Ranks and other suck crap are all ego boosters for the few that liketo see > their names in lights. > Whatever, go for it. > I personally, will never allow a few so-called sim experts to in anyway > influence me on how i use my sims or on-line racing time. > I might feel a touch more generous to the idea if a central groupwere > democratically elected on a yearly bassis, with fully open-to-allvoting, > but so far, all i have seen or heard of this elite group ofself-proclaimed > "Kings of Sims", is their undying belief in their own holier thanthou > attitude. > Take it or leave it, but for me, i don't need someone to tell me myrank, > how good i am, how bad i am, if i am safe to drive against, if i amas slow > as a snail, or as fast as lightening. > Reminds me of a story... The Pied Piper comes to mind... > > Cheers, > Ron

>I didn't like the idea then, and i don't like the idea now. I firmly believe the websites that are run by individuals or small groups such as GPLrank, the track database, RSC, etc.. will inevitably go the way of eaglewoman and theuspits as their maintainers move on, retire, get hit by busses etc.. (I couldn't find your old F3 setups recently for example). An elected club-style organization seems like the perfect place to maintain and grow that content (hell I'd propose it's worth paying a small fee to maintain). Lots of people play hockey, golf, tennis without belonging to an orginized club, and the same should be true of sim racing but I imagine there are lots of little ways these clubs indirectly benifit the non-member player. Is FILSCA the forum? Probably not in it's current guise, at the moment they aren't interested and aren't big enough to tackle it even if they were. However neither can change from the outside.

"mcewena" wrote:

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> I firmly believe the websites that are run by individuals or small > groups such as GPLrank, the track database, RSC, etc.. will inevitably > go the way of eaglewoman and theuspits as their maintainers move on, > retire, get hit by busses etc.. (I couldn't find your old F3 setups > recently for example). An elected club-style organization seems like > the perfect place to maintain and grow that content (hell I'd propose > it's worth paying a small fee to maintain).

I disagree. I believe the fan sites will remain whilst there is sufficient interest. Sure some may come and go, but I don't believe people will be prepared to pay for the co-ordination of fan sites. There is a tremendous amount of man hours and commitment going into the mods and so on. > Lots of people play hockey, golf, tennis without belonging to an > orginized club, and the same should be true of sim racing but I imagine > there are lots of little ways these clubs indirectly benifit the > non-member player. Going back a long while I belong to a motor club in the UK, which in itself was affiliated to a regional association of motor clubs with its own set of regional rules. This assocation was amember of the RAC motor sports association (RACSMA). To perform any form of motor sports I had to have an RACSMA competition licence. This licence would have many levels such that to rally in a national championship you needed regional experience etc. A "misbehaving" driver could have his licence suspended. The RACSMA provided the basic rules and requirements for the clubs and provided a policing function both for clubs (to ensure their events were properly run) and the drivers (to ensure they acted appropriately) This allowed the motor club for which I belonged to run national events and for their drivers to compete in other clubs events with a common umbrella organisation. This is where I see FILSCA or a similar organisation. Not a club - that is the grass roots level - but an association of clubs providing common standards, organising championships and events and a means of maintaining driving standards. Without some form of regional, national and international championships I see no real reason for such an association. My motor club would have run fine on its own if it just catered for its members and had no legal obligation to subscribe. The GPL league I race in runs superbly with excellent league admin, rules, agreement processes and quality drivers, so I and the league have no need for anything more. Which may be a reason the appetite for an association seems weak. However, unlike your local tennis club where you can be the local hero of a membership group spanning just a few miles, sim racing tends to be world wide. Maybe the opportunity to localise sim racing into local championships, extending to regional, national and international could be the route forward for developing interest. There aren't many other sports where you compete with the world's best at a club level. Food for thought maybe. Cheers Tony

I am sure that FILSCA is the form - but we need more active members. Without active members, the form will surely not work. A top-down commercial approach with investments - used to hand out small goodies or to set up a big event or both - could surely gather more people faster, but would it also stay for representing the diversity in online racing - the different leagues, the different sims etc. that FILSCA preserves? I doubt so. mcewena wrote: > >I didn't like the idea then, and i don't like the idea now. > > I firmly believe the websites that are run by individuals or small > groups such as GPLrank, the track database, RSC, etc.. willinevitably > go the way of eaglewoman and theuspits as their maintainers move on, > retire, get hit by busses etc.. (I couldn't find your old F3 setups > recently for example). An elected club-style organization seemslike > the perfect place to maintain and grow that content (hell I'd propose > it's worth paying a small fee to maintain). > > Lots of people play hockey, golf, tennis without belonging to an > orginized club, and the same should be true of sim racing but Iimagine > there are lots of little ways these clubs indirectly benifit the > non-member player. > > Is FILSCA the forum? Probably not in it's current guise, at themoment > they aren't interested and aren't big enough to tackle it even ifthey > were. However neither can change from the outside.

"mcewena" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> I firmly believe the websites that are run by individuals or small > groups such as GPLrank, the track database, RSC, etc.. will inevitably > go the way of eaglewoman and theuspits as their maintainers move on, > retire, get hit by busses etc.. (I couldn't find your old F3 setups > recently for example). An elected club-style organization seems like > the perfect place to maintain and grow that content (hell I'd propose > it's worth paying a small fee to maintain). > > Lots of people play hockey, golf, tennis without belonging to an > orginized club, and the same should be true of sim racing but I imagine > there are lots of little ways these clubs indirectly benifit the > non-member player. > > Is FILSCA the forum? Probably not in it's current guise, at the moment > they aren't interested and aren't big enough to tackle it even if they > were. However neither can change from the outside.

Hi Mac, long time no see... :) Hope you have been keeping well. I tend to agree with the basics of your thoughts, though FILSCA is far from the democratic approach that i would be looking for in a centralised governing body for sim racers world wide. Something like FILSCA would have some benefits to the sim racer as a whole, but it should not be run by a self appointed few, the board should be selected from the sim base world wide, maybe using RAS as a voting pool. I am just speculating anyway.... The trouble with these virtual systems of management is that they start out with good intentions, then the power usually gets to those in charge, from there it is a downhill slide untill the regular sim racer gets tired of a central body telling him/her what they can do and what they can't do. You yourself know what the feeling was amongst early GPL players when a select few (no names mentioned) thought they were the bees knees of GPL. That split the GPL community into two basic groups, those that thought they were better than everyone else and the rest, which compromised the average sim racer, be they fast, slow or indifferent. FILSCA will not work or be viable without a fully democratic (open to all sim racers) voting system and i can't see that ever happening as some people will not give up the reigns of power once they sample it. Cheers, Ron.

FILSCA is not a governing body for sim racers world wide. Sim racers would include non-league racers and offline racers as well. FILSCA is an association of leagues - of leagues who voluntarily join. FILSCA is also far from excercising power over leagues - it is a platform where leagues can help each other and where the leagues their drivers and their teams are presented together. One of the simplest advantages is e.g. this: the results as provided in GTR are far from any standard. Each league will have a hard work to provide results or to process these data into their databases. Within FILSCA one member admin coded the parser, and within the next few days, maybe even from tomorrow any member league can upload GTR results and gets automatically the results and standings. Even if you have something as the RA, you still get extensive statistics and everything. Another league which rents out servers, provides a free server for all member leagues or for team tests. There are further aspirations than that of course, and we'll see how it develops. Surely not by discussing about world governments or by dissing GPLers. But you can always join and help - there is a lot to do. And I go back to work now. Christoph Schirmer Ron Ayton wrote: > "mcewena" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > I firmly believe the websites that are run by individuals or small > > groups such as GPLrank, the track database, RSC, etc.. willinevitably > > go the way of eaglewoman and theuspits as their maintainers moveon, > > retire, get hit by busses etc.. (I couldn't find your old F3setups > > recently for example). An elected club-style organization seemslike > > the perfect place to maintain and grow that content (hell I'dpropose > > it's worth paying a small fee to maintain). > > > > Lots of people play hockey, golf, tennis without belonging to an > > orginized club, and the same should be true of sim racing but Iimagine > > there are lots of little ways these clubs indirectly benifit the > > non-member player. > > > > Is FILSCA the forum? Probably not in it's current guise, at themoment > > they aren't interested and aren't big enough to tackle it even ifthey > > were. However neither can change from the outside. > > Hi Mac, long time no see... :) Hope you have been keeping well. > I tend to agree with the basics of your thoughts, though FILSCA isfar from > the democratic approach that i would be looking for in a centralised > governing body for sim racers world wide. > Something like FILSCA would have some benefits to the sim racer as awhole, > but it should not be run by a self appointed few, the board should be > selected from the sim base world wide, maybe using RAS as a votingpool. > I am just speculating anyway.... > The trouble with these virtual systems of management is that theystart out > with good intentions, then the power usually gets to those in charge,from > there it is a downhill slide untill the regular sim racer gets tiredof a > central body telling him/her what they can do and what they can't do. > You yourself know what the feeling was amongst early GPL players whena > select few (no names mentioned) thought they were the bees knees ofGPL. > That split the GPL community into two basic groups, those thatthought they > were better than everyone else and the rest, which compromised theaverage > sim racer, be they fast, slow or indifferent. > FILSCA will not work or be viable without a fully democratic (opento all > sim racers) voting system and i can't see that ever happening as somepeople > will not give up the reigns of power once they sample it. > > Cheers, > Ron.

"Shrapnel" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:w_%Od.759$[email hidden]...

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> > >> It stinks! >> >> > > That may be so, but I can agree with Christoph here, AutoSimSport is not a > "FILSCA Newsletter" it is an independant magazine for the simracing > community, written for the whole community and not just FILSCA member > leagues. > > It features FILSCA race reports and results, but this is a small part of > the > whole. The magazine as it stands is trying to cover as broad a spread of > the simracing community as we can. > > Jon. > P.S: Anyway, this is not really anything to do with this discussion! :o) > >

It seems some of you missed the joke - the name "ASS" stinks. Maybe those who think their shit doesn't stink wouldn't catch on I suppose! :)

Here's a retaliatory top post that also stinks! :) "* The documents are sent to representatives of interested leagues upon request." This is the part I refer to. My point is simply that if I'm a league admin who's not overly fussed about joining then the added hassle/wait of this will probably just make me move on. Not to mention make people ask themselves "Why don't they just make this stuff public". This is an insult to the public in general and stinks of underhandedness. If there is stuff you'd rather not post publically then why stick that in the public's face in the first place? Just send it by email only after a league admin shows interest! If it's a big secret then keep it a big secret! :) "Christoph Schirmer" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... You find the KISS versions at the FILSCA site: http://www.filsca.com/1000253/386 http://www.filsca.com/1000253/773 Next, I don't find it unsimple, but only fair not to tell you any bullshit or give you promises without providing complete information. You may call that a bad sales strategy, or not simple. This is not a company that wants to sell something, this is an adventure and an enterprise that wants to see if a large group of diverse people embedding within the sim racing community can seriously work on something. I do not want to hide that, even if that may require you to read a bit more and be more concentrated in doing so. And it is only legitimate to keep the more formal things within the members - apart from that anyone sees them before he/she joins. Should there be really a reason to worry about someone who can't even click a link to require more information? If you think there is something hidden - be happy with your conspiracy theory. But fact is: any league is invited to join, and anyone is getting all information before he/she joins. There is nothing hidden to those who are affected. And it is just good behavior and education not to wash internal clothes outside the members area. As I said: some issues in the statutes need to be revised, and there is surely no sense in publishing something where the leagues do not have had the chance to discuss this exensively. Once that is done, �t will be publicly available anyway. Byron Forbes wrote: > > Christoph Schirmer wrote: > > >The rules are sent to any applicant (sorry Art, still no > >> mail from you re. your league, so you do not have received therules > > Like leagues that wish to attract drivers, you need to makeeverything > simple to understand and easy to join. All this under the table stuffis > ridiculous - no wonder there's all this paranoia about - it lookslike > you're hiding something. And you are! I'd get rid of all thatnonsense ASAP. > > As it is most league admins are probably umming and ahhing aboutjoining > anyway. Making things difficult as you do just makes them forget youand > just get on with their own leagues. KISS. (ask what this means atyour own > risk).

I must say I don't know how anyone could be threatened by FILSCA, even if they did have a sinister agenda. They can only have the power to attract leagues by offering clear benifits and little to no inconvenience - otherwise why would anyone join? But they do seem to have some secrets which is, of course, a clear indication of evil. "Christoph Schirmer" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> FILSCA is not a governing body for sim racers world wide. Sim racers > would include non-league racers and offline racers as well. FILSCA is > an association of leagues - of leagues who voluntarily join. > > FILSCA is also far from excercising power over leagues - it is a > platform where leagues can help each other and where the leagues their > drivers and their teams are presented together. > > One of the simplest advantages is e.g. this: the results as provided in > GTR are far from any standard. Each league will have a hard work to > provide results or to process these data into their databases. Within > FILSCA one member admin coded the parser, and within the next few days, > maybe even from tomorrow any member league can upload GTR results and > gets automatically the results and standings. Even if you have > something as the RA, you still get extensive statistics and everything. > > Another league which rents out servers, provides a free server for all > member leagues or for team tests. > > There are further aspirations than that of course, and we'll see how it > develops. Surely not by discussing about world governments or by > dissing GPLers. But you can always join and help - there is a lot to > do. And I go back to work now. > > Christoph Schirmer > > > > > Ron Ayton wrote: >> "mcewena" <[email hidden]> wrote in message >> news:[email hidden]... >> > I firmly believe the websites that are run by individuals or small >> > groups such as GPLrank, the track database, RSC, etc.. will > inevitably >> > go the way of eaglewoman and theuspits as their maintainers move > on, >> > retire, get hit by busses etc.. (I couldn't find your old F3 > setups >> > recently for example). An elected club-style organization seems > like >> > the perfect place to maintain and grow that content (hell I'd > propose >> > it's worth paying a small fee to maintain). >> > >> > Lots of people play hockey, golf, tennis without belonging to an >> > orginized club, and the same should be true of sim racing but I > imagine >> > there are lots of little ways these clubs indirectly benifit the >> > non-member player. >> > >> > Is FILSCA the forum? Probably not in it's current guise, at the > moment >> > they aren't interested and aren't big enough to tackle it even if > they >> > were. However neither can change from the outside. >> >> Hi Mac, long time no see... :) Hope you have been keeping well. >> I tend to agree with the basics of your thoughts, though FILSCA is > far from >> the democratic approach that i would be looking for in a centralised >> governing body for sim racers world wide. >> Something like FILSCA would have some benefits to the sim racer as a > whole, >> but it should not be run by a self appointed few, the board should be > >> selected from the sim base world wide, maybe using RAS as a voting > pool. >> I am just speculating anyway.... >> The trouble with these virtual systems of management is that they > start out >> with good intentions, then the power usually gets to those in charge, > from >> there it is a downhill slide untill the regular sim racer gets tired > of a >> central body telling him/her what they can do and what they can't do. >> You yourself know what the feeling was amongst early GPL players when > a >> select few (no names mentioned) thought they were the bees knees of > GPL. >> That split the GPL community into two basic groups, those that > thought they >> were better than everyone else and the rest, which compromised the > average >> sim racer, be they fast, slow or indifferent. >> FILSCA will not work or be viable without a fully democratic (open > to all >> sim racers) voting system and i can't see that ever happening as some > people >> will not give up the reigns of power once they sample it. >> >> Cheers, >> Ron. >

Honestly I don't know of any secrets - but it were really if a member admin could say something about that as no one believes me here :LOL: The only definite downside that the members have not yet been engaged enough and that there is a lack of man power to be more attractive for more leagues. Byron Forbes wrote: > I must say I don't know how anyone could be threatened by FILSCA,even > if they did have a sinister agenda. They can only have the power toattract > leagues by offering clear benifits and little to no inconvenience - > otherwise why would anyone join? But they do seem to have somesecrets which > is, of course, a clear indication of evil. > > > "Christoph Schirmer" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > FILSCA is not a governing body for sim racers world wide. Simracers > > would include non-league racers and offline racers as well. FILSCAis > > an association of leagues - of leagues who voluntarily join. > > > > FILSCA is also far from excercising power over leagues - it is a > > platform where leagues can help each other and where the leaguestheir > > drivers and their teams are presented together. > > > > One of the simplest advantages is e.g. this: the results asprovided in > > GTR are far from any standard. Each league will have a hard workto > > provide results or to process these data into their databases.Within > > FILSCA one member admin coded the parser, and within the next fewdays, > > maybe even from tomorrow any member league can upload GTR resultsand > > gets automatically the results and standings. Even if you have > > something as the RA, you still get extensive statistics andeverything. > > > > Another league which rents out servers, provides a free server forall > > member leagues or for team tests. > > > > There are further aspirations than that of course, and we'll seehow it > > develops. Surely not by discussing about world governments or by > > dissing GPLers. But you can always join and help - there is a lotto

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> > do. And I go back to work now. > > > > Christoph Schirmer > > > > > > > > > > Ron Ayton wrote: > >> "mcewena" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > >> news:[email hidden]... > >> > I firmly believe the websites that are run by individuals or

small

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> >> > groups such as GPLrank, the track database, RSC, etc.. will > > inevitably > >> > go the way of eaglewoman and theuspits as their maintainers move > > on, > >> > retire, get hit by busses etc.. (I couldn't find your old F3 > > setups > >> > recently for example). An elected club-style organization

seems

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> > like > >> > the perfect place to maintain and grow that content (hell I'd > > propose > >> > it's worth paying a small fee to maintain). > >> > > >> > Lots of people play hockey, golf, tennis without belonging to an > >> > orginized club, and the same should be true of sim racing but I > > imagine > >> > there are lots of little ways these clubs indirectly benifit the > >> > non-member player. > >> > > >> > Is FILSCA the forum? Probably not in it's current guise, at the > > moment > >> > they aren't interested and aren't big enough to tackle it even

if > > they > >> > were. However neither can change from the outside. > >> > >> Hi Mac, long time no see... :) Hope you have been keepingwell. > >> I tend to agree with the basics of your thoughts, though FILSCA is > > far from > >> the democratic approach that i would be looking for in acentralised > >> governing body for sim racers world wide. > >> Something like FILSCA would have some benefits to the sim racer asa > > whole, > >> but it should not be run by a self appointed few, the board shouldbe

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> > > >> selected from the sim base world wide, maybe using RAS as a voting > > pool. > >> I am just speculating anyway.... > >> The trouble with these virtual systems of management is that they > > start out > >> with good intentions, then the power usually gets to those in

charge, > > from > >> there it is a downhill slide untill the regular sim racer getstired > > of a > >> central body telling him/her what they can do and what they can'tdo. > >> You yourself know what the feeling was amongst early GPL playerswhen > > a > >> select few (no names mentioned) thought they were the bees kneesof

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> > GPL. > >> That split the GPL community into two basic groups, those that > > thought they > >> were better than everyone else and the rest, which compromised the > > average > >> sim racer, be they fast, slow or indifferent. > >> FILSCA will not work or be viable without a fully democratic

(open > > to all > >> sim racers) voting system and i can't see that ever happening assome > > people > >> will not give up the reigns of power once they sample it. > >> > >> Cheers, > >> Ron. > >