Re: CART=exciting/F1=boring

In article <y8uc5.25725$[email hidden]>, [email hidden] says... Did you see Mazzacarte's(sp?) > head get clunked by his car that was being lifted up by a crane and he gave > the guy the finger after HE was standing in the way. Geez, he was just > trying to help and do is job! It was Zonta, and he was putting his steering wheel back on, as required by the regulations. Helmet or no, if a track worker clouts me on the bean with a large machine, he'd get both a finger AND a few choice words from me. -- s i m a g e r y @ h o t m a i l . c o m

Mr Sim wrote: > Only advice is: respect each other. And my only advice is - don't view the world with such silly generalities. Dave Ewing - American F1 fan -- ***************************************************** David A. Ewing Xilinx Boulder [email hidden] *****************************************************

>as far as your comparison of CART drivers to dogs, this is laughable, and goes >to show that you have a closed mind to what is out in the world. >So we will see how F1 does in it's return to the states, although, someone is >still trying to shove that crap game soccer down our throats here, and we still >know that it's a game for 12 year old boys, and women, Lol, what was that about closed minds? And exactly what is your reasoning for those comments about football? Real football, that is :-) -- Cheers! Graeme Nash // Yes, I know this is a sim ng.... but footy is my game y'know :-)

Bertel Bolt-J�rgensen <\\\[email hidden]///> wrote in message news:D5tc5.438$[email hidden]... > Well there might be somebody out there who thinks there's more to racing > than going around in circles ( I must say that road-courses in cart are > exciting but the oval---comeon. Dogs go around in circles before thesleep, > as well as Cart-drivers.) Todas F1-race wasn't the most exciting of them > all, but still it introduced Hakkinen as a champ-contender. When american > racer wake up and see that race-cars can go more ways than left maybe the > rest of the world will take the serious. > > Bertel Bolt-JI didn't see the F1 race yesterday due to Eurosport showing the Tour de France all afternoon . Wonderful . However , I did catch a short glimpse of the Cart race in Toronto and it actually seemed quite exciting . The drivers really looked as if they were on the limit . As for ovals though , I think I'd rather watch synchronised swimming . At least the girls don't look too bad in those costumes Andrew

So turning right adds to the racing? F1 is more like hotlapping than racing. IMO anyway. Goy Larsen <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> Ed Solheim wrote: > > > > Bertel Bolt-J�rgensen wrote: > > > > > Still I think the oval racing and the repetetive use of safetycars in > > cart > > > an nascar, could open a interesting debate on cultural differences,

since > > > that apparently is ok in american leagues but is seen as a disasterfor

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> > the > > > race with the viewers of F1. > > > > Ahhh... the old pace-car "debate"... :) > > Now I'm actually quite sure you havn't understood much of oval-racing. > > Uh, what's to understand, you accelerate, brake (not always), turn left, > accelerate, brake again (see above), turn left and then accelerate > again, repeat 500 times until you are done.....:-) > > And this from a guy who worked up quite a phone bill racing on TEN, > amazing isn't it ? :-))) > > > Beers and cheers > (uncle) Goy > > "Team Mirage" http://www.teammirage.com/ > "The Pits" http://www.theuspits.com/ > > * Spam is for losers who can't get business any other way * > "Spamkiller" http://www.spamkiller.com

On Mon 17 Jul 2000 12:24:12pm, Jo Helsen wrote: <snip> >To really appreciate a sport, you have to >be exposed to it for a considerable time to learn the ins and outs. Sounds reasonable. Certainly some of the more obscure sports I follow and play (Crolf, anyone?) look absurd to the casual spectator. Imagine trying to explain the triple jump... >- cricket looks utterly boring to me, but you won't hear me say that >it *IS* boring. I just don't know anything about it Yep. I happen to love cricket, so I'm biased, but in some ways it's the sporting equivalent of GPL. You need to put in a lot of effort before you really know what's going on, but once you realise that a five-day Test match draw can be enthralling, there isn't a more satisfying sport on the planet. (Except hillclimbing, of course.) One problem is the US/everyone else divide. Though it can be understood by equivalents: American football = Rugby League (which is to say, theoretically a tackling game, but one controlled by TV companies that stops every three seconds). Yes, I'm a Union man :-) Basketball = Football ("soccer" - ugh). In that it's "the street game" played by poor people (hardly any equipment needed, y'see), and the most likely for non-white people to play. Baseball = Cricket. The "traditional" game. Played in summer. Obsessed by statistics. Incomprehensible jargon. Loads of pointless rituals (7th-inning stand in baseball, booing MCC members in cricket...). >- snooker: you only understand this one if you have played it in >competition, no matter how low the level :-) How many snooker players are there in Belgium? >- cycling in the Tour de France is not understood by Americans.<snip> Go Millar! -- David. (GPLRank handicap: +12.42) "After all, a mere thousand yards - such a harmless little knoll, really." (Raymond Mays on Shelsley Walsh)

On Mon, 17 Jul 2000 00:59:20 GMT, "L_NiN0" <[email hidden]> wrote: >Did anyone catch both these races today? > >Makes you wonder why everyone is pumping out F1 titles by the droves and >nobody will touch CART. Look at the crowds at F1 races, and then look at the crowds at CART races. Developers don't care what is more exciting, they just want to sell games.

It's been said a thousand times before, but... If you don't think oval races are worth watching then you don't understand the problem. Don't feel bad though, Montoya doesn't get it either, yet. Jan. =--- Bertel Bolt-J�rgensen wrote... > Well there might be somebody out there who thinks there's more to racing > than going around in circles <snip>

Nascar racing is extremely popular, and it is pretty much all about oval racing. I personally think that oval racing is pretty boring compared to road circuits , but there is so little actual competitveness on the narrow road courses most of the time compared to the bumper to bumper racing on ovals. Watching F1 on TV is kinda boring compared to Nascar because someone usually gets out in front early in the race and just hotlaps until he wins or his car breaks or maybe he screws up in one corner. But , when it comes to videogames, the tide turns in favor of F1 roadcourses , because they are more challenging and fun. Cart is probably the best type of racing both for watching and videogaming , because it has both ovals and roadcourses.

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> >Oh god. They have a couple oval races, so what, they do it so it attracts >all types of fans and people. I think CART is PERFECTLY balanced. It's like >a mix of NASCAR and F1. It's not as close as NASCAR and theres less passing, >but it's a bit more special when they pass, but not stupid when a driver >can't get around a blocking slow driver in F1 for 10 laps and then they >finally pass them and majorly pull away. That's a little lame. I tuned into >the race halfway through and I didn't see any passes, except for Hakinen >lapping people. I only watched it to see the only drivers I like in F1, >Villenueve (gotta route on the North American!) and Button. The CART race >was great! Passing every once in a while, the cars were closer together, the >cars weren't ugly, and the drivers didn't seem so snobbish and had more >respect for each other, and the workers too. Did you see Mazzacarte's(sp?) >head get clunked by his car that was being lifted up by a crane and he gave >the guy the finger after HE was standing in the way. Geez, he was just >trying to help and do is job! I mean, the F1 drivers dont even talk to the >TV crews when they retire, just their cheezy press conference for the top 3. >The slower cars/drivers dont even get to appear on TV. Then you constantly >see drivers every race taking each other out trying to block the other guy, >instead of letting him by and getting a better run and passing back. Then >you constantly see drivers waving their middle fingers at others. Totally >unproffesional and unacceptable. Then Eddie Irvine's comments about >Americans obsession with passing and comparing it to sleeping with 100 girls >every night or one every week was unacceptable too. It doesn't seem like >they care about doing good or expanding the sport which makes them >millionaires. > >and, it's just plain BORING!!!!!!!! 30 seconds between each car? I don't >know how you can like snobbish race drivers that dont even agknowledge the >fans or talk to them, tell the workers or signaling them or are doing them >favors to go f*ck themselves, and the lack of competiveness because the team >that wins is the one with the most money, not necessarily the best drivers. >Oh, and they don't even agknowledge a finisher, or anyone outside the top 6! >I mean, theres teams going scoreless. In F1, consistancy doesn't count, >which is stupid I think. > >Now CART. Oh yes, well Paul tracy may sometimes take people out, but you >don't see them giving the finger to people and putting others that work so >hard down. And the race itself is very interesting, with fuel strategies, >lead changes, close calls. It's totally unpredictable and things change so >quickly. I LOVE CART! > >Thanks, >Alex >BTW, I used to be like, "Oh yes! F1 is coming to the USA!" But now I REALLY >don't care. >

god bless you my child you make more sense than anybody in this forum I worship thee CART rules!!!!

>When american >racer wake up and see that race-cars can go more ways than left We do, but you wouldn't be smart enough to know that. Racer X Veteran Sim Racer #4 Corvette C5-R in the GTIC #24 Monte Carlo in the DORL Victory Lane- http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Speedway/1423/

Did anyone catch both these races today? Makes you wonder why everyone is pumping out F1 titles by the droves and nobody will touch CART. Ironically I ran across a very good editorial at Gamesdomain just now that asks the same question. http://www.gamesdomain.com/gdr.cgi?depart/jul00/divide.html What's a guy got to do to get a little ICR3!

I wonder who needs to wake up here???? Wayne Hutchison I AM Canadian! "Bertel Bolt-J�rgensen" <\\\[email hidden]///> wrote in message news:D5tc5.438$[email hidden]... > Well there might be somebody out there who thinks there's more to racing > than going around in circles ( I must say that road-courses in cart are > exciting but the oval---comeon. Dogs go around in circles before thesleep,

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> as well as Cart-drivers.) Todas F1-race wasn't the most exciting of them > all, but still it introduced Hakkinen as a champ-contender. When american > racer wake up and see that race-cars can go more ways than left maybe the > rest of the world will take the serious. > > Bertel Bolt-J > > "L_NiN0" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:ITsc5.62192$[email hidden]... > > Did anyone catch both these races today? > > > > Makes you wonder why everyone is pumping out F1 titles by the droves and > > nobody will touch CART. > > > > Ironically I ran across a very good editorial at Gamesdomain just now

that

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> > asks the same question. > > http://www.gamesdomain.com/gdr.cgi?depart/jul00/divide.html > > > > What's a guy got to do to get a little ICR3! > > > > > > > >

Oh god. They have a couple oval races, so what, they do it so it attracts all types of fans and people. I think CART is PERFECTLY balanced. It's like a mix of NASCAR and F1. It's not as close as NASCAR and theres less passing, but it's a bit more special when they pass, but not stupid when a driver can't get around a blocking slow driver in F1 for 10 laps and then they finally pass them and majorly pull away. That's a little lame. I tuned into the race halfway through and I didn't see any passes, except for Hakinen lapping people. I only watched it to see the only drivers I like in F1, Villenueve (gotta route on the North American!) and Button. The CART race was great! Passing every once in a while, the cars were closer together, the cars weren't ugly, and the drivers didn't seem so snobbish and had more respect for each other, and the workers too. Did you see Mazzacarte's(sp?) head get clunked by his car that was being lifted up by a crane and he gave the guy the finger after HE was standing in the way. Geez, he was just trying to help and do is job! I mean, the F1 drivers dont even talk to the TV crews when they retire, just their cheezy press conference for the top 3. The slower cars/drivers dont even get to appear on TV. Then you constantly see drivers every race taking each other out trying to block the other guy, instead of letting him by and getting a better run and passing back. Then you constantly see drivers waving their middle fingers at others. Totally unproffesional and unacceptable. Then Eddie Irvine's comments about Americans obsession with passing and comparing it to sleeping with 100 girls every night or one every week was unacceptable too. It doesn't seem like they care about doing good or expanding the sport which makes them millionaires. and, it's just plain BORING!!!!!!!! 30 seconds between each car? I don't know how you can like snobbish race drivers that dont even agknowledge the fans or talk to them, tell the workers or signaling them or are doing them favors to go f*ck themselves, and the lack of competiveness because the team that wins is the one with the most money, not necessarily the best drivers. Oh, and they don't even agknowledge a finisher, or anyone outside the top 6! I mean, theres teams going scoreless. In F1, consistancy doesn't count, which is stupid I think. Now CART. Oh yes, well Paul tracy may sometimes take people out, but you don't see them giving the finger to people and putting others that work so hard down. And the race itself is very interesting, with fuel strategies, lead changes, close calls. It's totally unpredictable and things change so quickly. I LOVE CART! Thanks, Alex BTW, I used to be like, "Oh yes! F1 is coming to the USA!" But now I REALLY don't care. Bertel Bolt-J�rgensen <\\\[email hidden]///> wrote in message news:D5tc5.438$[email hidden]... > Well there might be somebody out there who thinks there's more to racing > than going around in circles ( I must say that road-courses in cart are > exciting but the oval---comeon. Dogs go around in circles before thesleep,

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> as well as Cart-drivers.) Todas F1-race wasn't the most exciting of them > all, but still it introduced Hakkinen as a champ-contender. When american > racer wake up and see that race-cars can go more ways than left maybe the > rest of the world will take the serious. > > Bertel Bolt-J > > "L_NiN0" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:ITsc5.62192$[email hidden]... > > Did anyone catch both these races today? > > > > Makes you wonder why everyone is pumping out F1 titles by the droves and > > nobody will touch CART. > > > > Ironically I ran across a very good editorial at Gamesdomain just now

that

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> > asks the same question. > > http://www.gamesdomain.com/gdr.cgi?depart/jul00/divide.html > > > > What's a guy got to do to get a little ICR3! > > > > > > > >

Well there might be somebody out there who thinks there's more to racing than going around in circles ( I must say that road-courses in cart are exciting but the oval---comeon. Dogs go around in circles before the sleep, as well as Cart-drivers.) Todas F1-race wasn't the most exciting of them all, but still it introduced Hakkinen as a champ-contender. When american racer wake up and see that race-cars can go more ways than left maybe the rest of the world will take the serious. Bertel Bolt-J "L_NiN0" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:ITsc5.62192$[email hidden]...

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> Did anyone catch both these races today? > > Makes you wonder why everyone is pumping out F1 titles by the droves and > nobody will touch CART. > > Ironically I ran across a very good editorial at Gamesdomain just now that > asks the same question. > http://www.gamesdomain.com/gdr.cgi?depart/jul00/divide.html > > What's a guy got to do to get a little ICR3! > > >

What's a guy got to do to get a little ICR3! > > my new pet project is to emulate the sucess of glDoom and get Sierra to release the ICR2 code into the public domain. Then we could make our own 3d version. > >

Finally one guy with an insightful comment. By the way doesn't everyone know this is a Sim NG? Loosay2 said>>>>> Nascar racing is extremely popular, and it is pretty much all about oval racing. I personally think that oval racing is pretty boring compared to road circuits , but there is so little actual competitveness on the narrow road courses most of the time compared to the bumper to bumper racing on ovals. Watching F1 on TV is kinda boring compared to Nascar because someone usually gets out in front early in the race and just hotlaps until he wins or his car breaks or maybe he screws up in one corner. But , when it comes to videogames, the tide turns in favor of F1 roadcourses , because they are more challenging and fun. Cart is probably the best type of racing both for watching and videogaming , because it has both ovals and roadcourses.>>>>>

Very smart :) I very much agree with you. Thanks, Alex Loosay2 <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > Nascar racing is extremely popular, and it is pretty much all about oval > racing. I personally think that oval racing is pretty boring compared toroad > circuits , but there is so little actual competitveness on the narrow road > courses most of the time compared to the bumper to bumper racing on ovals. > Watching F1 on TV is kinda boring compared to Nascar because someoneusually > gets out in front early in the race and just hotlaps until he wins or hiscar > breaks or maybe he screws up in one corner. But , when it comes tovideogames, > the tide turns in favor of F1 roadcourses , because they are morechallenging > and fun. Cart is probably the best type of racing both for watching and > videogaming , because it has both ovals and roadcourses.

as a race fan who enjoys most racing and after seeeing both races today I can only say that even though F1 can be boring at times I enjoy the "soap opera" air about it and was actually excited at the start as usual.I appreciate what all drivers of this calibre must deal with and F1 is in a class all its own. Of course they are snobs.Besides money , can you imagine what it takes to get to F1.A few years of that kinda stress would make anyone a little touched. HOWEVER, CART RULES , I love cart. It is the most exciting, definitely. A CART sim would be great and here In Canada I am sure it would be in demand but then theres the rest of the world. As far as the behavior of some of the drivers go, I race Karts as a hobbie and Ive been really pissed at times, and hey....theres no money. I cant imagine the emotional rollercoaster these guys experience after putting every ounce of energy and concentration into their work and to be near the front in points mid season only to be punted. Think about it,how many critics cant even keep their cool and composure within this newsgroup :) hehe L_NiN0 wrote:

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> > Did anyone catch both these races today? > > Makes you wonder why everyone is pumping out F1 titles by the droves and > nobody will touch CART. > > Ironically I ran across a very good editorial at Gamesdomain just now that > asks the same question. > http://www.gamesdomain.com/gdr.cgi?depart/jul00/divide.html > > What's a guy got to do to get a little ICR3!

Time to wake up and smell the coffee Bertel.. Seen any oval races lately? Seen any Cart races at all lately?? Lets see what most excicting here....: CART2000: 10 races - 8 different winners from 8 different teams (3 different engines, 3 different chassis) F1 2000: 10 races - 3 different winners - 2 different teams As someone said before... if you think oval-racing is boring, then you have yet to understand what it's all about. Heck, there even more passing and excsictment in the line to the counter at the supermarket, than there is in F1. Ed_ "Bertel Bolt-J�rgensen" wrote: > Well there might be somebody out there who thinks there's more to racing > than going around in circles <SNIP!>

Rod Prince <[email hidden]> writes:

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> In article <2syc5.14864$[email hidden]>, > [email hidden] says... > > > As someone said before... if you think oval-racing is boring, > > then you have yet to understand what it's all about. > > I think you're spot on there. I used to be one of those who thought oval > racing was something that you couldn't possibly enjoy. I'd say mostly due > to the fact that we had (at the time) very little exposure to oval racing > in Australia. Being a sim fan opened my eyes to what actually unfolds > during a race. > > Now I have cable and was able to get the Atlanta CART race, and > watched

^^^^^^^^^^^^ Don't try that on r.a.s.indy or r.a.s.cart :) > Indy a couple of months ago. We also get the odd NASCAR race, and it's > alot more than just racing round in circles. For me, oval racing is the > racing version of chess. > > Cheers, > Rod. -- Olav K. Malmin remove spam when replying

Rod Prince <[email hidden]> writes:

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> In article <[email hidden]>, > [email hidden] says... > > > > Now I have cable and was able to get the Atlanta CART race, and > > > watched > > ^^^^^^^^^^^^ > > Don't try that on r.a.s.indy or r.a.s.cart :) > > We don't get updates on the apparent rift between the two racing series, > just the racing. I wasn't aware there was a rift until the Indy race. > I'll plead ignorance. ;)

hehe, I was joking. That is really CART's big problem, noone seems to be aware of the split, and for common people they are still Indycars anyway. -- Olav K. Malmin remove spam when replying

>When american >racer wake up and see that race-cars can go more ways than left We do, but you wouldn't be smart enough to know that. Racer X Veteran Sim Racer >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Well said!!

Start paying the wages I guess <G> MS

"Alex Kihurani" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:y8uc5.25725$[email hidden]... > Oh god. They have a couple oval races, so what, they do it so it attracts > all types of fans and people. I think CART is PERFECTLY balanced. It'slike > a mix of NASCAR and F1. It's not as close as NASCAR and theres lesspassing, > but it's a bit more special when they pass, Agreed. It's a pretty good series all told. >but not stupid when a driver > can't get around a blocking slow driver in F1 for 10 laps A slower driver is fully entitled to keep a faster driver behind all day if it's for position. Ask who is the better driver. The guy in a slower car must be ahead for a reason. He's either done something outstanding to be in that position or the faster guy has done something stupid. A lapped driver must move over within 3 blue flags so what's the problem? >and then they finally pass them and majorly pull away. That's a littlelame. It's down to the car specs as laid down in the rules. The reliance of aero over mechanical grip is the big issue here. The fans know it, the drivers know it and the engineers know it. The only people seemingly in the dark are the powers that be in the FIA corridors of power! >. The CART race > was great! Passing every once in a while, the cars were closer together,the > cars weren't ugly, and the drivers didn't seem so snobbish and had more > respect for each other, and the workers too. >Did you see Mazzacarte's(sp?) > head get clunked by his car that was being lifted up by a crane and hegave > the guy the finger after HE was standing in the way. Standing in the way LOL. The guy has just endured a major failure at breakneck speed, he is battered and bruised after his exertions, his heartbeat is somewhere around 180 and then he gets clonked on the head. I suggest that the crane driver learns a little patience and let's the driver get himself together before steaming in. Geez, he was just > trying to help and do is job! I mean, the F1 drivers dont even talk to the > TV crews when they retire, just their cheezy press conference for the top3. Really? Louise Goodman on ITV managed to interview Schumacher, Button, De la Rosa, Alesi, Zonta and Ron Dennis either during or immediately after the race. > The slower cars/drivers dont even get to appear on TV. They do on British TV. Can't vouch for other channels though. >Then you constantly > see drivers every race taking each other out trying to block the otherguy, > instead of letting him by and getting a better run and passing back It's in the rules. You are allowed one move off line to defend your position when there is a pass being attempted. Can you really see a Minardi being passed by a Maclaren and then lining up for another passing move? >. Then > you constantly see drivers waving their middle fingers at others. Totally > unproffesional and unacceptable. I've seen it once. I've also seen CART drivers shaking fists at each other. > Then Eddie Irvine's comments about > Americans obsession with passing and comparing it to sleeping with 100girls > every night or one every week was unacceptable too. That's our Eddie <G> He's a man who speaks for himself. He's a bit like a certain Columbian in that respect. >It doesn't seem like > they care about doing good or expanding the sport which makes them > millionaires. They are paid to epand the business of their sponsors. That's why many of them do 150+ days a year promotional work. It's the sponsors and not F1 who make them millionaires in the main. As for F1 expanding. With 400 million tv viewers and more countries trying to get a race then the number of availble slots, This is one of the few things that Ecclestone has got right. > > and, it's just plain BORING!!!!!!!! 30 seconds between each car? Hmmm. Did you see the French GP The difference between the series is that F1 is more of a pure technical excercise whereas CART is more geared to entertaining the type of clientelle who wants to see that. This is not to say that CART is not an excellent place to find cutting edge technology. There is much to be improved in F1 but it aint half as bad ad he word picture you are painting here. I don't > know how you can like snobbish race drivers that dont even agknowledge the > fans or talk to them. Come to Goodwood some day. You will see many of the drivers signing autographs and being completely at ease with crowds. It's not the drivers being snobbish in F1 paddocks that is the problem, it's the way that F1 paddocks make them inaccessible to the masses that is. > and the lack of competiveness because the team > that wins is the one with the most money, Tell that to Ferrari. They have thrown more money at this game than anybody else over the last 20 years and have won zip in the way of drivers championships. > not necessarily the best drivers. Does the best driver always win in CART? LOL. I remember Mark Blundell winning races <G> > Oh, and they don't even agknowledge a finisher, or anyone outside the top6! As Ron Dennis said. It's up for the others to catch up, not for us to slow down. > I mean, theres teams going scoreless. In F1, consistancy doesn't count, > which is stupid I think. 7th or 22nd. What's the difference? You are still one of the losers. It also means that on the rare occasion that a Schumacher fails to finish, we get to see championships come alive again <G> > > Now CART. Oh yes, well Paul tracy may sometimes take people out, Tell me a driver who has never taken somebody out and I'll show you a guy who is not a racing driver. > but you > don't see them giving the finger to people and putting others that work so > hard down. Hehe. Paul Tracey has made a living out of taking people out and being nice to marshalls <G> I LOVE CART! CART is cool. So is F1. Both have their bad points but that is no reason to bad mouth a series simply because you prefer to watch one with rose tinted lenses my friend. Cheers MS > > Thanks, > Alex > BTW, I used to be like, "Oh yes! F1 is coming to the USA!" But now IREALLY

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> don't care. > Bertel Bolt-J�rgensen <\\\[email hidden]///> wrote in message > news:D5tc5.438$[email hidden]... > > Well there might be somebody out there who thinks there's more to racing > > than going around in circles ( I must say that road-courses in cart are > > exciting but the oval---comeon. Dogs go around in circles before the > sleep, > > as well as Cart-drivers.) Todas F1-race wasn't the most exciting of them > > all, but still it introduced Hakkinen as a champ-contender. When

american > > racer wake up and see that race-cars can go more ways than left maybethe

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> > rest of the world will take the serious. > > > > Bertel Bolt-J > > > > "L_NiN0" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:ITsc5.62192$[email hidden]... > > > Did anyone catch both these races today? > > > > > > Makes you wonder why everyone is pumping out F1 titles by the droves

and

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> > > nobody will touch CART. > > > > > > Ironically I ran across a very good editorial at Gamesdomain just now > that > > > asks the same question. > > > http://www.gamesdomain.com/gdr.cgi?depart/jul00/divide.html > > > > > > What's a guy got to do to get a little ICR3! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

"Dave Henrie" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:72vc5.19109$[email hidden]... > What's a guy got to do to get a little ICR3! Start paying the wages I guess <G> MS > > > > > my new pet project is to emulate the sucess of glDoom and get Sierra to > release the ICR2 code into the public domain. Then we could make our own3d > version. > > > > > >

On Mon, 17 Jul 2000 09:38:55 GMT, Rod Prince <[email hidden]> wrote: >In article <2syc5.14864$[email hidden]>, >[email hidden] says... > >> As someone said before... if you think oval-racing is boring, >> then you have yet to understand what it's all about. This is often the problem.. To really appreciate a sport, you have to be exposed to it for a considerable time to learn the ins and outs. - cricket looks utterly boring to me, but you won't hear me say that it *IS* boring. I just don't know anything about it - curling: idem - pelote: idem - American football: idem (yes, indeed...) - soccer: why does all the world love it, except the US? - snooker: you only understand this one if you have played it in competition, no matter how low the level :-) - cycling in the Tour de France is not understood by Americans. Like when Lance Armstrong finishes say 32th in the 12th stage, they interview him as if he performed badly that day. Cycling needs at least 10 years of education in the sport :-) I reckon it is the same for oval racing. JoH

First off, I am no oval fan, I prefer road courses, but CART oval races are prety exciting, and why cant a race take place on an oval, CART runs road courses as well, along with street circuts, they have a formula that makes for very good racing, with a good dose of high tech, without being so expensive that only 2, maybe 3 teams can field competitive cars. as far as your comparison of CART drivers to dogs, this is laughable, and goes to show that you have a closed mind to what is out in the world. I recently read a comparison of a CART race, and a F1 race in atlasf1, and the author was most impressed by the speed, and closeness of the fans to the cars at the CART event in Nazereth, while at Silverstone he was most impressed with the tents set up by Daimler-Chysler, and Jaguar, this is not why I go to races, but europe is different than the USA, maybe the competition isn't what drives the interest in F1, maybe it's something different, it has to be something else. So we will see how F1 does in it's return to the states, although, someone is still trying to shove that crap game soccer down our throats here, and we still know that it's a game for 12 year old boys, and women,, we're not buying that, and unless F1 produces some substance, not just hype, it will be as sucessfull as pro soccer in the USA. "Bertel Bolt-J�rgensen" wrote:

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> Well there might be somebody out there who thinks there's more to racing > than going around in circles ( I must say that road-courses in cart are > exciting but the oval---comeon. Dogs go around in circles before the sleep, > as well as Cart-drivers.) Todas F1-race wasn't the most exciting of them > all, but still it introduced Hakkinen as a champ-contender. When american > racer wake up and see that race-cars can go more ways than left maybe the > rest of the world will take the serious. > > Bertel Bolt-J > > "L_NiN0" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:ITsc5.62192$[email hidden]... > > Did anyone catch both these races today? > > > > Makes you wonder why everyone is pumping out F1 titles by the droves and > > nobody will touch CART. > > > > Ironically I ran across a very good editorial at Gamesdomain just now that > > asks the same question. > > http://www.gamesdomain.com/gdr.cgi?depart/jul00/divide.html > > > > What's a guy got to do to get a little ICR3! > > > > > >

it was Zonta, and it was totally unacceptable for him to give that volunteer the finger(in the US corner workers do their jobs for free, i assume it's the same in europe) BriGuy wrote:

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> In article <y8uc5.25725$[email hidden]>, > [email hidden] says... > > Did you see Mazzacarte's(sp?) > > head get clunked by his car that was being lifted up by a crane and he gave > > the guy the finger after HE was standing in the way. Geez, he was just > > trying to help and do is job! > > It was Zonta, and he was putting his steering wheel back on, as required > by the regulations. Helmet or no, if a track worker clouts me on the > bean with a large machine, he'd get both a finger AND a few choice words > from me. > > -- > > s i m a g e r y @ h o t m a i l . c o m

> . > > > The slower cars/drivers dont even get to appear on TV. > > They do on British TV. Can't vouch for other channels though. > f1 free tv feed is comntrolled by the home countires broadcaster, so in spain we see a minardi in 19th place because their is a spanish driver in it, ect, love that great ppv system in f1, which limits the in car shots we got on the free feed, and I hear that ppv isn't offered in the UK, it's not offered in the United States, I cant even get the races live without direct TV F1 is the highest form of racing, but they screw you at every turn, and the current formula doesn't make for good racing on the track

As i wrote in an other post: I am Sorry. I was a little drunk after watching the race on video til 3 in the morning after an extremely tough week-end at work. (being a steward on a catamaran-ferry and this week-end being the biggest travelling time here in Denmark because of the hollidays) so I was kicking back with a bottle of vine and saw this post. Having been friendly to people on the job all week I probably felt like being a little intolerant. As I said I am sorry. Still I think the oval racing and the repetetive use of safetycars in cart an nascar, could open a interesting debate on cultural differences, since that apparently is ok in american leagues but is seen as a disaster for the race with the viewers of F1. The bottom line is that I as a european F1-fan simply doen't get the ovals, but watch when cart hit the "real" racetracks, because the competition admittedly are closer in cart. And so it should be since the cars are more or less the same, (aren't there 3 different manufactures ?), where as F1 cars are made by individual companies with different abbilities. ( I am stopping now since i am getting myself in to this cart vs. F1 discussion wich is propably the most futile in this newsgroup. Sorry "L_NiN0" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:ITsc5.62192$[email hidden]...

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> Did anyone catch both these races today? > > Makes you wonder why everyone is pumping out F1 titles by the droves and > nobody will touch CART. > > Ironically I ran across a very good editorial at Gamesdomain just now that > asks the same question. > http://www.gamesdomain.com/gdr.cgi?depart/jul00/divide.html > > What's a guy got to do to get a little ICR3! > > >

On 17 Jul 2000 11:48:58 GMT, [email hidden] (David Buttery) wrote:

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>On Mon 17 Jul 2000 12:24:12pm, Jo Helsen wrote: > ><snip> >>To really appreciate a sport, you have to >>be exposed to it for a considerable time to learn the ins and outs. > >Sounds reasonable. Certainly some of the more obscure sports I follow >and play (Crolf, anyone?) look absurd to the casual spectator. >Imagine trying to explain the triple jump...

<snip> >Basketball = Football ("soccer" - ugh). In that it's "the street >game" played by poor people Yeah. Jordan & O'Neal are really poor beggars <G> >>- snooker: you only understand this one if you have played it in >>competition, no matter how low the level :-) > >How many snooker players are there in Belgium? Jee.. I don't know :-) But it's pretty popular over here. We had some amateur world champions lately, and 2-3 players turning pro. At least one got to the 10th preliminary for the WC (actually he has a snooker establishment just 2 miles from where I live) >>- cycling in the Tour de France is not understood by Americans. ><snip> > >Go Millar! Hehe... Obviously Englishmen aren't that much more knowledgable than Americans when it comes to cycling :-) Boardman was always very fast too, until the mountains appeared :-) JoH

"Bertel Bolt-J�rgensen" <\\\[email hidden]///> wrote in message news:D5tc5.438$[email hidden]... > Well there might be somebody out there who thinks there's more to racing > than going around in circles ( I must say that road-courses in cart are > exciting but the oval---comeon. Dogs go around in circles before thesleep, > as well as Cart-drivers.) Todas F1-race wasn't the most exciting of them > all, but still it introduced Hakkinen as a champ-contender. When american > racer wake up and see that race-cars can go more ways than left maybe the > rest of the world will take the serious. What do oval races have to do with anything? the poster asked if anyone caught both races this weekend. The CART race was on a street circuit, not an oval. A decent race too, with Andretti making a picture-perfect outside pass on Adrian Fernandez to take the lead and hold on for the rest of the race to win it. -- <remove 7of9 for e-mail replies> -- Bill Jones e-mail addresses: Computer Sciences Corp. (work) [email hidden] New London, Connecticut (play) [email hidden] (860) 701-1201 WWW: http://pages.cthome.net/billj > "L_NiN0" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:ITsc5.62192$[email hidden]... > > Did anyone catch both these races today? > > > > Makes you wonder why everyone is pumping out F1 titles by the droves and > > nobody will touch CART.

Ed Solheim wrote:

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> > Bertel Bolt-J�rgensen wrote: > > > Still I think the oval racing and the repetetive use of safetycars in > cart > > an nascar, could open a interesting debate on cultural differences, since > > that apparently is ok in american leagues but is seen as a disaster for > the > > race with the viewers of F1. > > Ahhh... the old pace-car "debate"... :) > Now I'm actually quite sure you havn't understood much of oval-racing.

Uh, what's to understand, you accelerate, brake (not always), turn left, accelerate, brake again (see above), turn left and then accelerate again, repeat 500 times until you are done.....:-) And this from a guy who worked up quite a phone bill racing on TEN, amazing isn't it ? :-))) Beers and cheers (uncle) Goy "Team Mirage" http://www.teammirage.com/ "The Pits" http://www.theuspits.com/ * Spam is for losers who can't get business any other way * "Spamkiller" http://www.spamkiller.com

> So we will see how F1 does in it's return to the states, although, someoneis > still trying to shove that crap game soccer down our throats here, and westill > know that it's a game for 12 year old boys, and women, ROTFLOL. Soccer as you call it is the most popular professional sport on earth. Every most countries on every single continent love this game with a passion. Maybe the US can't take to it owing to the fact that they can't get a world class team together, and can't change the rules so as to accomodate the TV stations over there. <G> > and unless F1 produces some substance, not just hype, it will be assucessfull > as pro soccer in the USA. I'm sure you are right here. F1 in the US will bomb owing to a totally inappropriate venue. It might be more successful on a global basis as the baseball world series however, always won by an American team owing to the fact that only American teams enter it <G> MS,

"Jo Helsen" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> On Mon, 17 Jul 2000 09:38:55 GMT, Rod Prince > <[email hidden]> wrote: > > >In article <2syc5.14864$[email hidden]>, > >[email hidden] says... > > > >> As someone said before... if you think oval-racing is boring, > >> then you have yet to understand what it's all about. > This is often the problem.. To really appreciate a sport, you have to > be exposed to it for a considerable time to learn the ins and outs.

33 years old, and all of them spent in the U.S.

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> - cricket looks utterly boring to me, but you won't hear me say that > it *IS* boring. I just don't know anything about it > > - curling: idem > > - pelote: idem > > - American football: idem (yes, indeed...) > > - soccer: why does all the world love it, except the US? > > - snooker: you only understand this one if you have played it in > competition, no matter how low the level :-) > > - cycling in the Tour de France is not understood by Americans. Like > when Lance Armstrong finishes say 32th in the 12th stage, they > interview him as if he performed badly that day. Cycling needs at > least 10 years of education in the sport :-)

I love the Tour and every year I try not to miss a stage, but NASCAR oval racing is still extremely boring to me. > I reckon it is the same for oval racing. > > JoH

Bertel Bolt-J�rgensen wrote: > Still I think the oval racing and the repetetive use of safetycars incart > an nascar, could open a interesting debate on cultural differences, since > that apparently is ok in american leagues but is seen as a disaster forthe > race with the viewers of F1. Ahhh... the old pace-car "debate"... :) Now I'm actually quite sure you havn't understood much of oval-racing. Ed_

Just curious... Isn't it ok for different people to like different forms of racing? And isn't it true that all forms of racing are of equal quality, only different? I've found that when people say that some certain form of racing is lame or boring compared to their form of racing, it's because they haven't given it enough time to grow on them, and to learn what makes that form of racing interesting. Bertel, you sound like the many Americans who say "Oh racing is stupid, they just go around in circles." Well obviously since so many people enjoy it, that it just isn't true. Any sport must be given time to enjoy. I'm sorry that your so closed minded about things, but circle racing IS exciting, and the drivers still need to be better than the next guy to win. Bertel Bolt-J�rgensen <\\\[email hidden]///> wrote in message news:D5tc5.438$[email hidden]... > Well there might be somebody out there who thinks there's more to racing > than going around in circles ( I must say that road-courses in cart are > exciting but the oval---comeon. Dogs go around in circles before thesleep,

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> as well as Cart-drivers.) Todas F1-race wasn't the most exciting of them > all, but still it introduced Hakkinen as a champ-contender. When american > racer wake up and see that race-cars can go more ways than left maybe the > rest of the world will take the serious. > > Bertel Bolt-J > > "L_NiN0" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:ITsc5.62192$[email hidden]... > > Did anyone catch both these races today? > > > > Makes you wonder why everyone is pumping out F1 titles by the droves and > > nobody will touch CART. > > > > Ironically I ran across a very good editorial at Gamesdomain just now

that

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> > asks the same question. > > http://www.gamesdomain.com/gdr.cgi?depart/jul00/divide.html > > > > What's a guy got to do to get a little ICR3! > > > > > > > >

This discussion will never end. You know what the explanation is: American people are just so proud of their selves. They become blind and only like their sports. Especially when there are much crashes (cart) or many points to score (nba, nfl etc etc). European people are ofcourse also proud of their selves. But in an other way. They are more objective when they watch sports. They admire the sport in his beauty (so when a driver is 30 secs ahead, then he must be doing something really good, like racing real consistent, good lines, good pitstops, etc etc). Only advice is: respect each other. Only question is: where do i come from? Hehehe Alex Kihurani <[email hidden]> schreef in berichtnieuws y8uc5.25725$[email hidden]... > Oh god. They have a couple oval races, so what, they do it so it attracts > all types of fans and people. I think CART is PERFECTLY balanced. It'slike > a mix of NASCAR and F1. It's not as close as NASCAR and theres lesspassing, > but it's a bit more special when they pass, but not stupid when a driver > can't get around a blocking slow driver in F1 for 10 laps and then they > finally pass them and majorly pull away. That's a little lame. I tunedinto > the race halfway through and I didn't see any passes, except for Hakinen > lapping people. I only watched it to see the only drivers I like in F1, > Villenueve (gotta route on the North American!) and Button. The CART race > was great! Passing every once in a while, the cars were closer together,the > cars weren't ugly, and the drivers didn't seem so snobbish and had more > respect for each other, and the workers too. Did you see Mazzacarte's(sp?) > head get clunked by his car that was being lifted up by a crane and hegave > the guy the finger after HE was standing in the way. Geez, he was just > trying to help and do is job! I mean, the F1 drivers dont even talk to the > TV crews when they retire, just their cheezy press conference for the top3. > The slower cars/drivers dont even get to appear on TV. Then you constantly > see drivers every race taking each other out trying to block the otherguy, > instead of letting him by and getting a better run and passing back. Then > you constantly see drivers waving their middle fingers at others. Totally > unproffesional and unacceptable. Then Eddie Irvine's comments about > Americans obsession with passing and comparing it to sleeping with 100girls

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> every night or one every week was unacceptable too. It doesn't seem like > they care about doing good or expanding the sport which makes them > millionaires. > > and, it's just plain BORING!!!!!!!! 30 seconds between each car? I don't > know how you can like snobbish race drivers that dont even agknowledge the > fans or talk to them, tell the workers or signaling them or are doing them > favors to go f*ck themselves, and the lack of competiveness because the

team > that wins is the one with the most money, not necessarily the bestdrivers. > Oh, and they don't even agknowledge a finisher, or anyone outside the top6!

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> I mean, theres teams going scoreless. In F1, consistancy doesn't count, > which is stupid I think. > > Now CART. Oh yes, well Paul tracy may sometimes take people out, but you > don't see them giving the finger to people and putting others that work so > hard down. And the race itself is very interesting, with fuel strategies, > lead changes, close calls. It's totally unpredictable and things change so > quickly. I LOVE CART! > > Thanks, > Alex > BTW, I used to be like, "Oh yes! F1 is coming to the USA!" But now I

REALLY

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> don't care. > Bertel Bolt-J�rgensen <\\\[email hidden]///> wrote in message > news:D5tc5.438$[email hidden]... > > Well there might be somebody out there who thinks there's more to racing > > than going around in circles ( I must say that road-courses in cart are > > exciting but the oval---comeon. Dogs go around in circles before the > sleep, > > as well as Cart-drivers.) Todas F1-race wasn't the most exciting of them > > all, but still it introduced Hakkinen as a champ-contender. When

american > > racer wake up and see that race-cars can go more ways than left maybethe

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> > rest of the world will take the serious. > > > > Bertel Bolt-J > > > > "L_NiN0" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:ITsc5.62192$[email hidden]... > > > Did anyone catch both these races today? > > > > > > Makes you wonder why everyone is pumping out F1 titles by the droves

and

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> > > nobody will touch CART. > > > > > > Ironically I ran across a very good editorial at Gamesdomain just now > that > > > asks the same question. > > > http://www.gamesdomain.com/gdr.cgi?depart/jul00/divide.html > > > > > > What's a guy got to do to get a little ICR3! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

I fully agree. It has all to do with cultures and proudness. Nothing more, nothing less. Jo Helsen <[email hidden]> schreef in berichtnieuws [email hidden]...

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> On Mon, 17 Jul 2000 09:38:55 GMT, Rod Prince > <[email hidden]> wrote: > > >In article <2syc5.14864$[email hidden]>, > >[email hidden] says... > > > >> As someone said before... if you think oval-racing is boring, > >> then you have yet to understand what it's all about. > > This is often the problem.. To really appreciate a sport, you have to > be exposed to it for a considerable time to learn the ins and outs. > > - cricket looks utterly boring to me, but you won't hear me say that > it *IS* boring. I just don't know anything about it > > - curling: idem > > - pelote: idem > > - American football: idem (yes, indeed...) > > - soccer: why does all the world love it, except the US? > > - snooker: you only understand this one if you have played it in > competition, no matter how low the level :-) > > - cycling in the Tour de France is not understood by Americans. Like > when Lance Armstrong finishes say 32th in the 12th stage, they > interview him as if he performed badly that day. Cycling needs at > least 10 years of education in the sport :-) > > I reckon it is the same for oval racing. > > JoH

"Alex Kihurani" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:y8uc5.25725$[email hidden]... <SNIP> > I mean, the F1 drivers dont even talk to the > TV crews when they retire, just their cheezy press conference for the top3. <SNIP> Huh? Johnny Herbert always has a chat with Louise Goodman... ;) MRSisson

Consider: the CART-license is probably much cheaper, they only have to make two 3d-models (Reynard and Lola), it appeals to both the US and Europe (certainly next year with two European races), it has a nice mix of ovals, street circuits and circuits, it has exciting racing, it has no Bernie 'nail to F1's coffin' Ecclestone or Max 'overtaking is dangerous' Mosley. Having considered aboven, I see only two explanations why there has't been a decent CART-sim since ICR2 (1996, I guess) 1) Some semi-criminal software-company owned by someone who has the same first name as the US president still owns an exclusive licence which doesn't allow competent game-develloppers to make a CART sim and forces the world to buy their own Crap Presicion Racing. 2) It is to easy to make a CART sim a huge succes. Therefore companies are afraid to they will make profit and have to pay taxes and so on. (-: greetings, Han Monsees L_NiN0 <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:ITsc5.62192$[email hidden]...

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> Did anyone catch both these races today? > > Makes you wonder why everyone is pumping out F1 titles by the droves and > nobody will touch CART. > > Ironically I ran across a very good editorial at Gamesdomain just now that > asks the same question. > http://www.gamesdomain.com/gdr.cgi?depart/jul00/divide.html > > What's a guy got to do to get a little ICR3! > > >

Ooo Ooo I know why Crash Gordon left CART the first time.... HE SUCKS!!! He was at Walker racing, that's a pretty good ride or was if you ask me. -- Sean Higgins Proud Member of Beaver Creek Racing Redline Racing League www.rrlnrs.com CNSRL www.cnsrl.com Dave Henrie <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:NP9d5.23691$[email hidden]... > > "NanaKofi" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > The driver with the BEST equipment wins in Formula One. (I.E. Put > Schumacher > > in a McLaren and he would win every race baring mechanical difficulties) > > In CART, you do not need the best equipment to win.... > > OHH??? Look at the difference in Team Penske. Yes they are tweeking the > Reynard Chassis, but most of the tweeks come from last year's Penske > Chassis. If Jr. Had Firestone tires 4 years ago at Laguna, Vasser "might" > not have won his title. If Jr had Honda Power last few years he "might" not > be over in that other league now.. > Equipment makes a whale of a difference...Ask Robbie Gordon why he left > for Nascar(the first time...) > dave henrie > >

On Tue, 18 Jul 2000 01:26:58 +0200, "Han Monsees" <[email hidden]> mangled uncounted electrons thus:

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>Consider: the CART-license is probably much cheaper, they only have to make >two 3d-models (Reynard and Lola), it appeals to both the US and Europe >(certainly next year with two European races), it has a nice mix of ovals, >street circuits and circuits, it has exciting racing, it has no Bernie 'nail >to F1's coffin' Ecclestone or Max 'overtaking is dangerous' Mosley. > >Having considered aboven, I see only two explanations why there has't been a >decent CART-sim since ICR2 (1996, I guess) > >1) Some semi-criminal software-company owned by someone who has the same >first name as the US president still owns an exclusive licence which doesn't >allow competent game-develloppers to make a CART sim and forces the world to >buy their own Crap Presicion Racing. > >2) It is to easy to make a CART sim a huge succes. Therefore companies are >afraid to they will make profit and have to pay taxes and so on. (-:

ROFLOL!!! Martin D. Pay Conspiracy theories? In r.a.s.? Surely not... ^_-

The driver with the BEST equipment wins in Formula One. (I.E. Put Schumacher in a McLaren and he would win every race baring mechanical difficulties) In CART, you do not need the best equipment to win....

>the USofA WON the world cup. Lol :-) That wasn't quite "the" World Cup I'm afraid :-) -- Cheers! Graeme Nash

On Mon, 17 Jul 2000 13:00:22 +0100, "m.seery" <[email hidden]> mangled uncounted electrons thus: <snip> >Does the best driver always win in CART? LOL. I remember Mark Blundell >winning races <G> Oh, that's soooo nasty! <snip> >CART is cool. So is F1. Both have their bad points but that is no reason to >bad mouth a series simply because you prefer to watch one with rose tinted >lenses my friend. Each to their own. I'm not really familiar with CART - wrong side of the Pond, I guess - but I must confess to finding those oval circuits less than interesting... <grin> Hockenheim in 2 weeks. Look for lots of mechanical attrition. That's a *vicious* circuit, very hard on gearboxes and engines... >> Alex >> BTW, I used to be like, "Oh yes! F1 is coming to the USA!" But now I >>REALLY don't care. I'm really looking forward to that one. A brand-new circuit that none of the drivers will know at all. Always fun, that... ^_- Martin D. Pay Who has a wife who doesn't understand his interest in motorsports... and motorsports simulations... :(

Im jumping in this whole deal. Its gone too far!! Oval Racing is BY FAR the most exciting sport. IMHO But road racing is sometimes. when someone is gaining on his 30sec lead with 34 laps to go hes gaining a sec each lap. Who will win. Thats what makes F1 so exciting. But some people are bashing NASCAR. go find a video clip of ATLANTA 2000. That will prove tha NASCAR isnt boring AT ALL. Oval Racing is exciting cause there wide and plenty of of space to make passes so theres 2-3 passes probably every lap. Well it really matters where you are. Ovals do require stratgey just like F1. You need to find the setup the car maybe pushing or maybe too much oversteer. You need to know when your going to pass. and of course there another 200 laps to go so you need to worry about tire wear. the track may be rough. So mechanical failures. You may ruin or skip a shift and you may ruin the transmission. So theres what makes OVAL and Road racing so exciting to wtach.

On Mon 17 Jul 2000 03:21:08pm, Jo Helsen wrote: <snip> >>Go Millar! > >Hehe... Obviously Englishmen aren't that much more knowledgable than >Americans when it comes to cycling :-)<snip> Channel 4 over here used to show a 6:30pm highlights show every day. But now it's been shoved back to nearly midnight, it's harder to keep up. But yes, I know Millar was never in with a chance in the mountains (if he stopped running into things it would be nice...), but it was nice to see a Brit in yellow again, even if temporarily. -- David. (GPLRank handicap: +8.85) "After all, a mere thousand yards - such a harmless little knoll, really." (Raymond Mays on Shelsley Walsh)

On Mon, 17 Jul 2000 07:59:37 -0700, Scott Holmes <[email hidden]> wrote: >it was Zonta, and it was totally unacceptable for him to give that volunteer the >finger(in the US corner workers do their jobs for free, i assume it's the same in >europe) In what way does that confer upon him the right to smash Zonta on the head with some earth-moving equipment? Zonta reacted in a natural manner, and I'm surprised people get so upset about it. You can see it every day, but woe betide any professional sportsman who stoops to unusual behaviour. John

On Tue, 18 Jul 2000 01:11:52 +0100, "m.seery" <[email hidden]> wrote: >Absolutely Kai. That last second is never easy to find whatever your >discipline might be. The point people miss is that the series is just a >medium for competition. It's the same for all drivers they all have to >compete on an even keel That's not the point at all. The point is that these series do not exist for driver fulfilment or as a medium for competition., they exist to appeal to spectators and to generate sales for sponsors. As such they need to offer entertainment, which is the issue under discussion. Personally I do not feel entertained by watchin oval racing of any form, therefore either the formula is wrong, I am a statisitical anomaly, or I am not the target market. Either way it's not my problem, it's down to the Bernie's of the world if they want "me" (my type of person) to watch. >I think it's far simpler than that. It's simply a case of people limiting >their own horizons, showing total ignorance and intolerance and looking at >the world through blinkers. Of course, it couldn't possibly be that the people have made a reasoned decision based upon personal preference and past experience and come to an opinion diametrically opposed to your own, yet equally as valid. That couldn't possibly be the case. Sounds like the blinkers are being worn on the other side of the discussion. John

On Tue, 18 Jul 2000 01:17:20 +0100, "m.seery" <[email hidden]> wrote:

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>You forgot to mention the following. > >1. You thread the eye of a needle at 200mph within inches of other people >trying to outdo you for several hours at a time. > >2. You try not to kill yourself in the the process > >3. You constantly appraise the speed verses tyre wear/fuel consumption >equation from lap to lap. > >4. You appraise how the mechanical grip on the circuit changes from lap to >lap and balance possible speed gains on the track through adjustments >against loss of time in the pitstops.

All extremely tough challenges for the driver, but none of which necessarily make the show entertaining to watch. Stick me in a car I'd probably love it, but you can hardly "watch" the driver appraising changing mechanical grip, so essentially what is left really is "cars going round in circles for a long time". John

In article <2syc5.14864$[email hidden]>, [email hidden] says... > As someone said before... if you think oval-racing is boring, > then you have yet to understand what it's all about. I think you're spot on there. I used to be one of those who thought oval racing was something that you couldn't possibly enjoy. I'd say mostly due to the fact that we had (at the time) very little exposure to oval racing in Australia. Being a sim fan opened my eyes to what actually unfolds during a race. Now I have cable and was able to get the Atlanta CART race, and watched Indy a couple of months ago. We also get the odd NASCAR race, and it's alot more than just racing round in circles. For me, oval racing is the racing version of chess. Cheers, Rod.

"Kai Fuller" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:TqIc5.327934$[email hidden]... > Just curious... Isn't it ok for different people to like different formsof > racing? And isn't it true that all forms of racing are of equal quality, > only different? Absolutely Kai. That last second is never easy to find whatever your discipline might be. The point people miss is that the series is just a medium for competition. It's the same for all drivers they all have to compete on an even keel > > I've found that when people say that some certain form of racing is lameor > boring compared to their form of racing, it's because they haven't givenit > enough time to grow on them, and to learn what makes that form of racing > interesting. I think it's far simpler than that. It's simply a case of people limiting their own horizons, showing total ignorance and intolerance and looking at the world through blinkers. > > Bertel, you sound like the many Americans who say "Oh racing is stupid,they > just go around in circles." Well obviously since so many people enjoy it, > that it just isn't true. Any sport must be given time to enjoy. I'm sorry > that your so closed minded about things, but circle racing IS exciting,and > the drivers still need to be better than the next guy to win. hear hear. MS

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> > > Bertel Bolt-J�rgensen <\\\[email hidden]///> wrote in message > news:D5tc5.438$[email hidden]... > > Well there might be somebody out there who thinks there's more to racing > > than going around in circles ( I must say that road-courses in cart are > > exciting but the oval---comeon. Dogs go around in circles before the > sleep, > > as well as Cart-drivers.) Todas F1-race wasn't the most exciting of them > > all, but still it introduced Hakkinen as a champ-contender. When

american > > racer wake up and see that race-cars can go more ways than left maybethe

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> > rest of the world will take the serious. > > > > Bertel Bolt-J > > > > "L_NiN0" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:ITsc5.62192$[email hidden]... > > > Did anyone catch both these races today? > > > > > > Makes you wonder why everyone is pumping out F1 titles by the droves

and

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> > > nobody will touch CART. > > > > > > Ironically I ran across a very good editorial at Gamesdomain just now > that > > > asks the same question. > > > http://www.gamesdomain.com/gdr.cgi?depart/jul00/divide.html > > > > > > What's a guy got to do to get a little ICR3! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

"Rod Prince" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:MPG.13ded798cb5f6a819896fc@news-server... > In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] says... > > > Uh, what's to understand, you accelerate, brake (not always), turn left, > > accelerate, brake again (see above), turn left and then accelerate > > again, repeat 500 times until you are done.....:-) You forgot to mention the following. 1. You thread the eye of a needle at 200mph within inches of other people trying to outdo you for several hours at a time. 2. You try not to kill yourself in the the process 3. You constantly appraise the speed verses tyre wear/fuel consumption equation from lap to lap. 4. You appraise how the mechanical grip on the circuit changes from lap to lap and balance possible speed gains on the track through adjustments against loss of time in the pitstops. Just to mention a few MS

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> > Then AUSCAR sounds just perfect for you! > > They turn right. ;) > > Cheers, > Rod.

"m.seery" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:cDCc5.2904$[email hidden]... > > > That's our Eddie <G> He's a man who speaks for himself. He's a bit like a > certain Columbian in that respect. > And you might be getting him back next year. ;P

AFAIK, Midway holds the (supposedly exclusive) license to CART thru the 2002? season. Papy had (still has?) a license thru the 2000? season, but has failed to capitalize on it. Bill "Han Monsees" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:8l04ld$fqk$[email hidden]... > > Consider: the CART-license is probably much cheaper, they only have tomake > two 3d-models (Reynard and Lola), it appeals to both the US and Europe > (certainly next year with two European races), it has a nice mix of ovals, > street circuits and circuits, it has exciting racing, it has no Bernie'nail > to F1's coffin' Ecclestone or Max 'overtaking is dangerous' Mosley. > > Having considered aboven, I see only two explanations why there has't beena > decent CART-sim since ICR2 (1996, I guess) > > 1) Some semi-criminal software-company owned by someone who has the same > first name as the US president still owns an exclusive licence whichdoesn't > allow competent game-develloppers to make a CART sim and forces the worldto

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> buy their own Crap Presicion Racing. > > 2) It is to easy to make a CART sim a huge succes. Therefore companies are > afraid to they will make profit and have to pay taxes and so on. (-: > > greetings, > Han Monsees > > L_NiN0 <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:ITsc5.62192$[email hidden]... > > Did anyone catch both these races today? > > > > Makes you wonder why everyone is pumping out F1 titles by the droves and > > nobody will touch CART. > > > > Ironically I ran across a very good editorial at Gamesdomain just now

that

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> > asks the same question. > > http://www.gamesdomain.com/gdr.cgi?depart/jul00/divide.html > > > > What's a guy got to do to get a little ICR3! > > > > > > > >

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] says... > > Now I have cable and was able to get the Atlanta CART race, and > > watched > ^^^^^^^^^^^^ > Don't try that on r.a.s.indy or r.a.s.cart :) We don't get updates on the apparent rift between the two racing series, just the racing. I wasn't aware there was a rift until the Indy race. I'll plead ignorance. ;) Cheers, Rod.

> > I'll plead ignorance. ;) > > hehe, I was joking. That is really CART's big problem, noone seems to > be aware of the split, and for common people they are still Indycarsanyway. > I "think" most people are aware of the split. They just don't know any of the paticulars. They know the big names like de Matta and Servia don't race Indy any more and they know that Mario Andretti is still 28 years old. But they have heard rumours of some split..and they assume like all Americans that the reason must be money. Of course(somebody cover john bodin's eyes) they don't know the Devil's own Spawn...he whose name we durst not speak, has hijaked the worlds biggest race(sure sure so he owns the track...big deal!) and brainwashed Roger Penske to use substandard equipment just so he could get Al Unser Jr. back. They know of a split...they just don't know the real details like we all do.... dave (doesn't whatshisname fly to the track in a black helicopter?) henrie

"m.seery" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:cvGc5.2978$[email hidden]... > > > So we will see how F1 does in it's return to the states, although,someone > is > > still trying to shove that crap game soccer down our throats here, andwe > still > > know that it's a game for 12 year old boys, and women, > > > ROTFLOL. Soccer as you call it is the most popular professional sport on > earth. Every most countries on every single continent love this game witha > passion. Maybe the US can't take to it owing to the fact that they can'tget > a world class team together, and can't change the rules so as toaccomodate the TV stations over there. <G> > gosh...who was flopping her jersey all over EVERY TV and Magazine and Newpaper in the freakin' world after the USofA WON the world cup. Yer just jealous cuz our Soccer Playing Women don't look like your Soccer playing Women, which is to say they look like the men.. dave henrie (he who is not so chauvenistic that he would think only men play soccer, just that the rest of the world can't tell the difference because the women seem to look just like the Men's teams.)

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> > > and unless F1 produces some substance, not just hype, it will be as > sucessfull > > as pro soccer in the USA. > > I'm sure you are right here. F1 in the US will bomb owing to a totally > inappropriate venue. It might be more successful on a global basis as the > baseball world series however, always won by an American team owing to the > fact that only American teams enter it <G> > > MS, > > > >

Hey, I hate F1, love CART, but my all time favourite is rallying!!!!!!!!!!!I'm going to the Maine Forest Pro Rally in 9 days! Whoohoo! Stig Blomqvist came last year, and there's a hundred people entered!!!!!!!!!!!I'm servicing, should be great. Thanks, Alex Mr Sim <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:xUHc5.402332$k22.1784390@flipper...

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> This discussion will never end. You know what the explanation is: > > American people are just so proud of their selves. They become blind and > only like their sports. Especially when there are much crashes (cart) or > many points to score (nba, nfl etc etc). > > European people are ofcourse also proud of their selves. But in an other > way. They are more objective when they watch sports. They admire the sport > in his beauty (so when a driver is 30 secs ahead, then he must be doing > something really good, like racing real consistent, good lines, good > pitstops, etc etc). > > Only advice is: respect each other. > > Only question is: where do i come from? Hehehe > > > > Alex Kihurani <[email hidden]> schreef in berichtnieuws > y8uc5.25725$[email hidden]... > > Oh god. They have a couple oval races, so what, they do it so it

attracts

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> > all types of fans and people. I think CART is PERFECTLY balanced. It's > like > > a mix of NASCAR and F1. It's not as close as NASCAR and theres less > passing, > > but it's a bit more special when they pass, but not stupid when a driver > > can't get around a blocking slow driver in F1 for 10 laps and then they > > finally pass them and majorly pull away. That's a little lame. I tuned > into > > the race halfway through and I didn't see any passes, except for Hakinen > > lapping people. I only watched it to see the only drivers I like in F1, > > Villenueve (gotta route on the North American!) and Button. The CART

race > > was great! Passing every once in a while, the cars were closer together, > the > > cars weren't ugly, and the drivers didn't seem so snobbish and had more > > respect for each other, and the workers too. Did you seeMazzacarte's(sp?) > > head get clunked by his car that was being lifted up by a crane and he > gave > > the guy the finger after HE was standing in the way. Geez, he was just > > trying to help and do is job! I mean, the F1 drivers dont even talk tothe > > TV crews when they retire, just their cheezy press conference for thetop > 3. > > The slower cars/drivers dont even get to appear on TV. Then youconstantly > > see drivers every race taking each other out trying to block the other > guy, > > instead of letting him by and getting a better run and passing back.Then > > you constantly see drivers waving their middle fingers at others.Totally

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> > unproffesional and unacceptable. Then Eddie Irvine's comments about > > Americans obsession with passing and comparing it to sleeping with 100 > girls > > every night or one every week was unacceptable too. It doesn't seem like > > they care about doing good or expanding the sport which makes them > > millionaires. > > > > and, it's just plain BORING!!!!!!!! 30 seconds between each car? I don't > > know how you can like snobbish race drivers that dont even agknowledge

the > > fans or talk to them, tell the workers or signaling them or are doingthem > > favors to go f*ck themselves, and the lack of competiveness because the > team > > that wins is the one with the most money, not necessarily the best > drivers. > > Oh, and they don't even agknowledge a finisher, or anyone outside thetop > 6! > > I mean, theres teams going scoreless. In F1, consistancy doesn't count, > > which is stupid I think. > > > > Now CART. Oh yes, well Paul tracy may sometimes take people out, but you > > don't see them giving the finger to people and putting others that workso > > hard down. And the race itself is very interesting, with fuelstrategies, > > lead changes, close calls. It's totally unpredictable and things changeso

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> > quickly. I LOVE CART! > > > > Thanks, > > Alex > > BTW, I used to be like, "Oh yes! F1 is coming to the USA!" But now I > REALLY > > don't care. > > Bertel Bolt-J�rgensen <\\\[email hidden]///> wrote in message > > news:D5tc5.438$[email hidden]... > > > Well there might be somebody out there who thinks there's more to

racing > > > than going around in circles ( I must say that road-courses in cartare > > > exciting but the oval---comeon. Dogs go around in circles before the > > sleep, > > > as well as Cart-drivers.) Todas F1-race wasn't the most exciting ofthem

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> > > all, but still it introduced Hakkinen as a champ-contender. When > american > > > racer wake up and see that race-cars can go more ways than left maybe > the > > > rest of the world will take the serious. > > > > > > Bertel Bolt-J > > > > > > "L_NiN0" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > news:ITsc5.62192$[email hidden]... > > > > Did anyone catch both these races today? > > > > > > > > Makes you wonder why everyone is pumping out F1 titles by the droves > and > > > > nobody will touch CART. > > > > > > > > Ironically I ran across a very good editorial at Gamesdomain just

now

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> > that > > > > asks the same question. > > > > http://www.gamesdomain.com/gdr.cgi?depart/jul00/divide.html > > > > > > > > What's a guy got to do to get a little ICR3! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

Rod Prince wrote:

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> > In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] says... > > > Uh, what's to understand, you accelerate, brake (not always), turn left, > > accelerate, brake again (see above), turn left and then accelerate > > again, repeat 500 times until you are done.....:-) > > Then AUSCAR sounds just perfect for you! > > They turn right. ;)

LOL, naaa, but Aussie V8's.................:-) Beers and cheers (uncle) Goy "Team Mirage" http://www.teammirage.com/ "The Pits" http://www.theuspits.com/ * Spam is for losers who can't get business any other way * "Spamkiller" http://www.spamkiller.com

"m.seery" wrote:

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> > "Rod Prince" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:MPG.13ded798cb5f6a819896fc@news-server... > > In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] says... > > > > > Uh, what's to understand, you accelerate, brake (not always), turn left, > > > accelerate, brake again (see above), turn left and then accelerate > > > again, repeat 500 times until you are done.....:-) > > You forgot to mention the following.

Of course I did, the whole road course vs oval racing debate is stupid, so I never had the intention of going into a meaningful discussion over this theme at all, it was just meant as a friendly jab at the oval fans.... Beers and cheers (uncle) Goy "Team Mirage" http://www.teammirage.com/ "The Pits" http://www.theuspits.com/ * Spam is for losers who can't get business any other way * "Spamkiller" http://www.spamkiller.com

> > That's our Eddie <G> He's a man who speaks for himself. He's a bit likea > > certain Columbian in that respect. > > > > And you might be getting him back next year. ;P Actually Bill, I'd love to see him racing again. He was definately De man to watch a few years ago in the British F3 Championship. Certainly the most exiting anyway. MS > >

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] says... > Uh, what's to understand, you accelerate, brake (not always), turn left, > accelerate, brake again (see above), turn left and then accelerate > again, repeat 500 times until you are done.....:-) Then AUSCAR sounds just perfect for you! They turn right. ;) Cheers, Rod.

Maybe you have made opinion based on reason John but that hardly compares with the typical Blah Blah blah posts along the lines of " ovals are crap cos they don't brake or turn right" or "F1 is crap cos they don't overtake", posts that proliferate in this group. <G>This is, as you would say, the market that I was targeting. Check peripheral vision buddy <G> MS "> Sounds like the blinkers are being worn on the other side of the > discussion. > > John

> All extremely tough challenges for the driver, but none of which > necessarily make the show entertaining to watch. Stick me in a car I'd > probably love it, but you can hardly "watch" the driver appraising > changing mechanical grip You are quite correct but I was replying to someone who was asking what was to understand about oval racing. Snipped from his post. > Uh, what's to understand, you accelerate, brake (not always), turn left, > accelerate, brake again (see above), turn left and then accelerate > again, repeat 500 times until you are done.....:-) As you see, the issue I was replying to was one of comprehension and not the level of entertainment involved. Seen as such, your reply is out of context. MS , so essentially what is left really is "cars > going round in circles for a long time". > > John

"NanaKofi" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > The driver with the BEST equipment wins in Formula One. (I.E. PutSchumacher > in a McLaren and he would win every race baring mechanical difficulties) > In CART, you do not need the best equipment to win.... OHH??? Look at the difference in Team Penske. Yes they are tweeking the Reynard Chassis, but most of the tweeks come from last year's Penske Chassis. If Jr. Had Firestone tires 4 years ago at Laguna, Vasser "might" not have won his title. If Jr had Honda Power last few years he "might" not be over in that other league now.. Equipment makes a whale of a difference...Ask Robbie Gordon why he left for Nascar(the first time...) dave henrie

In every series there will be disparities between the haves and have nots, but in Cart the disparity is much less than it is in F1. So far in 10 races Cart has had 8 different winners, 6 different teams have won, and 4 different Engine/Chasis combinations have won. This compared to F1 where only 3 drivers and 2 teams have won so far this year.

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> > OHH??? Look at the difference in Team Penske. Yes they are tweeking the > Reynard Chassis, but most of the tweeks come from last year's Penske > Chassis. If Jr. Had Firestone tires 4 years ago at Laguna, Vasser "might" > not have won his title. If Jr had Honda Power last few years he "might" not > be over in that other league now.. > Equipment makes a whale of a difference...Ask Robbie Gordon why he left > for Nascar(the first time...) > dave henrie

In article <[email hidden]>, Bengal <[email hidden]> writes:

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>as a race fan who enjoys most racing and after seeeing both races today >I can only say that even though F1 can be boring at times I enjoy the >"soap opera" air about it and was actually excited at the start as >usual.I appreciate what all drivers of this calibre must deal with and >F1 is in a class all its own. Of course they are snobs.Besides money , >can you imagine what it takes to get to F1.A few years of that kinda >stress would make anyone a little touched. HOWEVER, >CART RULES , I love cart. It is the most exciting, definitely. A CART >sim would be great and here In Canada I am sure it would be in demand >but then theres the rest of the world.

I actually saw THREE races. F1, BGN and CART. I enjoyed them all. The F1 was all but over early, but you never know what might happen... Eldred -- Tiger Stadium R.I.P. 1912-1999 Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett GPL hcp. +70.45 Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

On 18 Jul 2000 23:11:10 GMT, [email hidden] (NanaKofi) wrote: >The driver with the BEST equipment wins in Formula One. (I.E. Put Schumacher >in a McLaren and he would win every race baring mechanical difficulties) > In CART, you do not need the best equipment to win.... That brings in other issues, like the politics of drivers trying to BE in the best car at the appropriate time, and the technology advance as other teams try to catch up. John

that is kinda my point. Penske was a "have not" for the last 3 years.. They change equipment and BOOM! Back to being one of the top teams. dave henrie "Patrick Shumar" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > In every series there will be disparities between the haves and have nots,but > in Cart the disparity is much less than it is in F1. So far in 10 racesCart > has had 8 different winners, 6 different teams have won, and 4 different > Engine/Chasis combinations have won. This compared to F1 where only 3drivers > and 2 teams have won so far this year. >

And F1 is not about the driver either...It's all about who has the most CASH to buy the best EQUIPMENT.......

On Mon, 17 Jul 2000 03:54:55 +0200, "Jan Verschueren" <[email hidden]> wrote: >It's been said a thousand times before, but... > >If you don't think oval races are worth watching then you don't understand >the problem. Oval racing is all about setup. There is very little driver skill required from a professional driver. Here's a little quiz for you: How do you make up 1/2 second up at Indianapolis?? Find a better engineer!

In article <cDCc5.2904$[email hidden]>, "m.seery" <[email hidden]> wrote: > > CART is cool. So is F1. Both have their bad points but that is no reason > to bad mouth a series simply because you prefer to watch one with rose > tinted lenses my friend. I like both. I prefer the close racing of CART (I mean hakkinen lapped up to the 7th place car on the last race (or did he get further? I got bored by then)) but the F1 cars/engines are amazing and the races can be very good - especially when it rains. Also I know the drivers in F1 better than CART since I only just got satellite TV so I could watch such things. One thing F1 does really well is worldwide marketing. We see it live in New Zealand on Free-to-air TV (not the qualification though which is a shame). CART on the other hand is only available on Sky (Digital Satellite). I think the US grand prix should be very interesting. The oval portion will be a real departure for some of the drivers.

In article <8kvtoi$epu$[email hidden]>, "A Thomas" <[email hidden]> wrote: > . At least the girls > don't look too bad in those costumes The Olympic Beach Volley Ball should be good to watch too :-) Bill