Re: GPL - Was it a business failure?

OI! you take that back ... :o) Berno wrote: > ...very bad default setups...

All they needed to do was make the cars more grippy for an easy mode... On Tue, 18 Jul 2000 18:28:59 +0100, "GraDee" <[email hidden]> wrote:

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> >Steven Crook-Dawkins <[email hidden]> wrote in message >news:[email hidden]... >> Just that (other than on this forum) GPL gets no recognition. >> >> Plus Papyrus seem more interested in specialising in Nascar >> than developing a GPL franchise. >> >> You look at something like the "test drive" series - awful games, >> but I guess they were at least moneyspinners. >> >> Maybe the marketers let them down, somehow Papy needed >> to communicate that the simulation was technically up to date, >> even if what it simulated wasn't. >> >> -- >> Steven Crook-Dawkins >> > >My opinion is that GPL is just not user friendly enough to sell well. > >A good amount of my friends bought GPL too but as I'm the only one who is >genuinely into sim racing and has gone to the trouble of travelling 300 >miles to get an LWFF, I'm the only one not to have binned it by now. > >We don't have to sue it but an arcade or beginners mode wouldn't have hurt >GPL. Heck, even if the time was taken to allow you use the F3's without >rooting through game files it would have been a bigger hit. > >

OI! you take that back ... :o) > ...very bad default setups...

Just that (other than on this forum) GPL gets no recognition. Plus Papyrus seem more interested in specialising in Nascar than developing a GPL franchise. You look at something like the "test drive" series - awful games, but I guess they were at least moneyspinners. Maybe the marketers let them down, somehow Papy needed to communicate that the simulation was technically up to date, even if what it simulated wasn't. -- Steven Crook-Dawkins

"Steven Crook-Dawkins" <[email hidden]> wrote > Just that (other than on this forum) GPL gets no recognition. Of course, GPL was marketed for people like us, and only us. They took the decision to create the software without the usual driving aids/helping devices on purpose. It was a development decision. Still, GPL is well known in the industry as the reference for racing simulations. Gaming magazines and web site will often compare GPL to other titles when reviewing racing games (the traditionnal "It might not be as hardcore as GPL but.." line eh!). > Plus Papyrus seem more interested in specialising in Nascar > than developing a GPL franchise. Of course, The Nascar line of software is marketed for people like us but also a very wide range of gamers, from Mr. Quaker to the average racing fan. It's how they keep their work. It's how they can live in the industry. Sierra knows how to perfectly milk their franchise with an average of two Nascar titles per year. > Maybe the marketers let them down, somehow Papy needed > to communicate that the simulation was technically up to date, > even if what it simulated wasn't. Legends-type racing games simply aren't catchy. It's clearly the opposite than for historical flight sims. It was proven with Nascar Legends (one of the multiple reason for it's failure). Still, I still don't see how people can say GPL is a failure. It was never made for those people, so it didn't fail to catch that market. It was made for us, and it's a big success. Every serious simracing fanatic has GPL.. If you want, check out http://www.deja.com/usenet and you'll see this topic talked so much on r.a.s. that you'll get bored. Messages like yours come back each week or so :) -- -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> -- May the Downforce be with you... -- http://www.WeRace.net -- People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world.

And thank goodness that a few good people pushed for GPL. It's saved me so much money over the past 2 yrs. JM "ymenard" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:k6_c5.131327$[email hidden]... > "Steven Crook-Dawkins" <[email hidden]> wrote > > Just that (other than on this forum) GPL gets no recognition. > > Of course, GPL was marketed for people like us, and only us. They tookthe > decision to create the software without the usual driving aids/helping > devices on purpose. It was a development decision. Still, GPL is well > known in the industry as the reference for racing simulations. Gaming > magazines and web site will often compare GPL to other titles whenreviewing

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> racing games (the traditionnal "It might not be as hardcore as GPL but.." > line eh!). > > > > > Plus Papyrus seem more interested in specialising in Nascar > > than developing a GPL franchise. > > Of course, The Nascar line of software is marketed for people like us but > also a very wide range of gamers, from Mr. Quaker to the average racing

fan.

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> It's how they keep their work. It's how they can live in the industry. > Sierra knows how to perfectly milk their franchise with an average of two > Nascar titles per year. > > > > Maybe the marketers let them down, somehow Papy needed > > to communicate that the simulation was technically up to date, > > even if what it simulated wasn't. > > > Legends-type racing games simply aren't catchy. It's clearly the opposite > than for historical flight sims. It was proven with Nascar Legends (one

of > the multiple reason for it's failure). > > Still, I still don't see how people can say GPL is a failure. It wasnever > made for those people, so it didn't fail to catch that market. It wasmade > for us, and it's a big success. Every serious simracing fanatic has GPL.. > If you want, check out http://www.deja.com/usenet and you'll see thistopic

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> talked so much on r.a.s. that you'll get bored. Messages like yours come > back each week or so :) > > > > > > -- > -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> > -- May the Downforce be with you... > -- http://www.WeRace.net > -- People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't

realise > how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world. > > >

Steven Crook-Dawkins <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> Just that (other than on this forum) GPL gets no recognition. > > Plus Papyrus seem more interested in specialising in Nascar > than developing a GPL franchise. > > You look at something like the "test drive" series - awful games, > but I guess they were at least moneyspinners. > > Maybe the marketers let them down, somehow Papy needed > to communicate that the simulation was technically up to date, > even if what it simulated wasn't. > > -- > Steven Crook-Dawkins >

My opinion is that GPL is just not user friendly enough to sell well. A good amount of my friends bought GPL too but as I'm the only one who is genuinely into sim racing and has gone to the trouble of travelling 300 miles to get an LWFF, I'm the only one not to have binned it by now. We don't have to sue it but an arcade or beginners mode wouldn't have hurt GPL. Heck, even if the time was taken to allow you use the F3's without rooting through game files it would have been a bigger hit.

It was. Oliver BEOROCKET Racing: www.beorocket.co.yu "Steven Crook-Dawkins" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> Just that (other than on this forum) GPL gets no recognition. > > Plus Papyrus seem more interested in specialising in Nascar > than developing a GPL franchise. > > You look at something like the "test drive" series - awful games, > but I guess they were at least moneyspinners. > > Maybe the marketers let them down, somehow Papy needed > to communicate that the simulation was technically up to date, > even if what it simulated wasn't. > > -- > Steven Crook-Dawkins >

"GMpartsdude" <[email hidden]> wrote > -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> > -- May the Downforce be with you... > -- http://www.WeRace.net > -- People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don'trealise > how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world. > > > Frank, if you are going to continue to put this arrogant filler materialat > the bottom of your messages, the least you could do is run it through a > spell check.(us idiots have only been telling you this for the last 2years > or so) There's not a thing wrong in my signature file. Your Internet user # 24129042189042 to have said such thing to me. You "idiots" like you wrote have yet to tell me the error in my signature file. Every attempt is a failure. FYI it's not arrogant, it's just a FRIGGIN signature file for Christ's sake. -- -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> -- May the Downforce be with you... -- http://www.WeRace.net -- People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world.

Easy Frank, just an old fellow TEN guide bustin yer stump. Did'nt mean to set ya off. :) Thought maybe u still remembered the old crew. Must be that killer hash up there causing that short term memory loss :) Havent seen the ymenard tag around lately, thought id pull yer leg a little. Sorry man, no bad intended...GuideMitsu, SUPRMitsu.. "ymenard" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:qK2d5.132286$[email hidden]...

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> "GMpartsdude" <[email hidden]> wrote > > -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> > > -- May the Downforce be with you... > > -- http://www.WeRace.net > > -- People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't > realise > > how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world. > > > > > > Frank, if you are going to continue to put this arrogant filler material > at > > the bottom of your messages, the least you could do is run it through a > > spell check.(us idiots have only been telling you this for the last 2 > years > > or so) > > > There's not a thing wrong in my signature file. Your Internet user # > 24129042189042 to have said such thing to me. You "idiots" like you wrote > have yet to tell me the error in my signature file. Every attempt is a > failure. FYI it's not arrogant, it's just a FRIGGIN signature file for > Christ's sake. > > > > -- > -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> > -- May the Downforce be with you... > -- http://www.WeRace.net > -- People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't

realise > how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world. > > >

On Tue, 18 Jul 2000 21:24:31 +0100, "Rob.Swindells" <[email hidden]> wrote: >OI! you take that back ... :o) According to the GRE helpfile, they ARE bad and not realistic :)) 1.1 came with better setups. I assume you use those Rob, or do you use the 1.0 setups? Andre > >Berno wrote: > >> ...very bad default setups...

On Wed 19 Jul 2000 08:19:11am, Olav K. Malmin wrote: >Yeah, but how many did return it ? When I buy a game I have no >option to return it, only to sell it to a second hand store. Hey EB, you've got a potential customer here! Open another shop! >And there is no place on the box that says: Only 2 driver aids, bad >default setups (don't agree :) hard ai... Auto gears, braking help, throttle help - that's 3. In any case, why not read some reviews? They normally are out by the time the game's released. And there were two demos (no AI, I admit). >I think it was the pure fact than the game did not appeal to the >game-buying group of 15-30 year old. I know GPL is run by people a >lot "older" than that, but how many of them buy other games like >Unreal Tournament ? I'm 25, so by rights I ought to spend my time playing Quake III or something. As it happens, I don't really like blast-em-up type games, though Half-Life is an exception as it requires you to think a bit. And I absolutely love Thief. But GPL is better, of course :-) -- David. (GPLRank handicap: +2.68) "After all, a mere thousand yards - such a harmless little knoll, really." (Raymond Mays on Shelsley Walsh)

My 2cents: Accessability is what id say. Gp2 sold over a million copies and had 7 types of driver aids with about 6 ai difficulties. You could play it with the keyboard. Yet turn all the help off and play with an analoge controller and you had the deepest sim of the day. (papy contemporairy is indycar2) Gpl on the other hand had 2 driver aids, very bad default setups, hard ai for newbies and didnt suppord d3d. I would say d3d cost at least half the sales easy. How did it sell? below 100000 copies? It may very well be the best sim made but its very far away from the most well rounded. "Steven Crook-Dawkins" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> Just that (other than on this forum) GPL gets no recognition. > > Plus Papyrus seem more interested in specialising in Nascar > than developing a GPL franchise. > > You look at something like the "test drive" series - awful games, > but I guess they were at least moneyspinners. > > Maybe the marketers let them down, somehow Papy needed > to communicate that the simulation was technically up to date, > even if what it simulated wasn't. > > -- > Steven Crook-Dawkins >

"Berno" <[email hidden]> writes:

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> My 2cents: > Accessability is what id say. > > Gp2 sold over a million copies and had 7 types of driver aids with about 6 > ai difficulties. You could play it with the keyboard. Yet turn all the help > off and play with an analoge controller and you had the deepest sim of the > day. (papy contemporairy is indycar2) > > Gpl on the other hand had 2 driver aids, very bad default setups, hard ai > for newbies and didnt suppord d3d. I would say d3d cost at least half the > sales easy. How did it sell? below 100000 copies? It may very well be the > best sim made but its very far away from the most well rounded. >

Yeah, but how many did return it ? When I buy a game I have no option to return it, only to sell it to a second hand store. And there is no place on the box that says: Only 2 driver aids, bad default setups (don't agree :) hard ai... I think it was the pure fact than the game did not appeal to the game-buying group of 15-30 year old. I know GPL is run by people a lot "older" than that, but how many of them buy other games like Unreal Tournament ? -- Olav K. Malmin remove spam when replying

I bought Unreal Tournament and am over 30. I also am devoted to GPL Olav K. Malmin <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > "Berno" <[email hidden]> writes: > > > My 2cents: > > Accessability is what id say. > > > > Gp2 sold over a million copies and had 7 types of driver aids with about6 > > ai difficulties. You could play it with the keyboard. Yet turn all thehelp > > off and play with an analoge controller and you had the deepest sim ofthe > > day. (papy contemporairy is indycar2) > > > > Gpl on the other hand had 2 driver aids, very bad default setups, hardai > > for newbies and didnt suppord d3d. I would say d3d cost at least halfthe > > sales easy. How did it sell? below 100000 copies? It may very well bethe

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> > best sim made but its very far away from the most well rounded. > > > > Yeah, but how many did return it ? When I buy a game I have no option > to return it, only to sell it to a second hand store. And there is no > place on the box that says: Only 2 driver aids, bad default setups > (don't agree :) hard ai... > > I think it was the pure fact than the game did not appeal to the > game-buying group of 15-30 year old. I know GPL is run by people a lot > "older" than that, but how many of them buy other games like Unreal > Tournament ? > > -- > Olav K. Malmin > remove spam when replying

"Jcharm" <[email hidden]> writes: > I bought Unreal Tournament and am over 30. I also am devoted to GPL > opps :)

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> > Olav K. Malmin <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > "Berno" <[email hidden]> writes: > > > > > My 2cents: > > > Accessability is what id say. > > > > > > Gp2 sold over a million copies and had 7 types of driver aids with about > 6 > > > ai difficulties. You could play it with the keyboard. Yet turn all the > help > > > off and play with an analoge controller and you had the deepest sim of > the > > > day. (papy contemporairy is indycar2) > > > > > > Gpl on the other hand had 2 driver aids, very bad default setups, hard > ai > > > for newbies and didnt suppord d3d. I would say d3d cost at least half > the > > > sales easy. How did it sell? below 100000 copies? It may very well be > the > > > best sim made but its very far away from the most well rounded. > > > > > > > Yeah, but how many did return it ? When I buy a game I have no option > > to return it, only to sell it to a second hand store. And there is no > > place on the box that says: Only 2 driver aids, bad default setups > > (don't agree :) hard ai... > > > > I think it was the pure fact than the game did not appeal to the > > game-buying group of 15-30 year old. I know GPL is run by people a lot > > "older" than that, but how many of them buy other games like Unreal > > Tournament ? > > > > -- > > Olav K. Malmin > > remove spam when replying > >

-- Olav K. Malmin remove spam when replying

In response to "other than on this forum GPL gets no recognition": There's is a GPL only forum here http://www.gplea.org/ (and you can also get 3rd party add-ons here) and a forum that is often interested in GPL here http://timwheatley.co.uk/ And if you're interested in getting 3rd party dashes for the cars (and hopefully more soon), check out my site (GPLSF) here http://129.100.29.86/gpl/ Peter O'Connor - GPLSF Slick <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:8l290l$94s$[email hidden]... > It was. > > Oliver > BEOROCKET Racing: www.beorocket.co.yu > > "Steven Crook-Dawkins" <[email hidden]> wrote inmessage

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> news:[email hidden]... > > Just that (other than on this forum) GPL gets no recognition. > > > > Plus Papyrus seem more interested in specialising in Nascar > > than developing a GPL franchise. > > > > You look at something like the "test drive" series - awful games, > > but I guess they were at least moneyspinners. > > > > Maybe the marketers let them down, somehow Papy needed > > to communicate that the simulation was technically up to date, > > even if what it simulated wasn't. > > > > -- > > Steven Crook-Dawkins > > > >

"Olav K. Malmin" wrote: > > I think it was the pure fact than the game did not appeal to the > game-buying group of 15-30 year old. I know GPL is run by people a lot > "older" than that, but how many of them buy other games like Unreal > Tournament ? 41 years old. I enjoy Unreal Tournament, Quake 3 also for that matter. Good for eye-hand coordination. ;-) -- Chuck Kandler A man is no less a Slave just because he is allowed to choose a new Master every four years. Registered Linux User #180746 http://counter.li.org

Then I'd also like to throw in http://forums.simracingnews.com/cgi-bin/forumdisplay.cgi?action=topics&forum =Grand+Prix+Legends&number=12 with almost 2700 posts concerning GPL... -- Kenneth Verburg Editor-in-Chief, High Gear http://www.simracingnews.com

Hmmmm i was 31 when i got GPL, and n avid quake player Martyn_D "Olav K. Malmin" wrote:

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> "Berno" <[email hidden]> writes: > > > My 2cents: > > Accessability is what id say. > > > > Gp2 sold over a million copies and had 7 types of driver aids with about 6 > > ai difficulties. You could play it with the keyboard. Yet turn all the help > > off and play with an analoge controller and you had the deepest sim of the > > day. (papy contemporairy is indycar2) > > > > Gpl on the other hand had 2 driver aids, very bad default setups, hard ai > > for newbies and didnt suppord d3d. I would say d3d cost at least half the > > sales easy. How did it sell? below 100000 copies? It may very well be the > > best sim made but its very far away from the most well rounded. > > > > Yeah, but how many did return it ? When I buy a game I have no option > to return it, only to sell it to a second hand store. And there is no > place on the box that says: Only 2 driver aids, bad default setups > (don't agree :) hard ai... > > I think it was the pure fact than the game did not appeal to the > game-buying group of 15-30 year old. I know GPL is run by people a lot > "older" than that, but how many of them buy other games like Unreal > Tournament ? > > -- > Olav K. Malmin > remove spam when replying

[email hidden] (Jonathan Beckett) wrote: >All they needed to do was make the cars more grippy for an easy >mode... Exactly. That and an AI slider. It would have been sooooo easy to add an arcade mode. Who knows how many more copies it would have sold. Doubled sales at the very least. Joe McGinn _____________________ Radical Entertainment

In article <[email hidden]>, Uncle Fester <[email hidden]> writes:

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>"Olav K. Malmin" wrote: >> >> I think it was the pure fact than the game did not appeal to the >> game-buying group of 15-30 year old. I know GPL is run by people a lot >> "older" than that, but how many of them buy other games like Unreal >> Tournament ? > > >41 years old. I enjoy Unreal Tournament, Quake 3 also for that matter. >Good for eye-hand coordination. ;-) > >-- >Chuck Kandler

Geez, Chuck - you're OLD! :) Maybe I'll challenge to a game of Quake sometime... On second thought, maybe I'll stick to GPL. My 'frags' there are MUCH more spectacular! <g> Eldred -- Tiger Stadium R.I.P. 1912-1999 Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett GPL hcp. +70.45 Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

EldredP wrote:

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> >41 years old. I enjoy Unreal Tournament, Quake 3 also for that matter. > >Good for eye-hand coordination. ;-) > > > >-- > >Chuck Kandler > > Geez, Chuck - you're OLD! :) > Maybe I'll challenge to a game of Quake sometime... On second thought, maybe > I'll stick to GPL. My 'frags' there are MUCH more spectacular! <g>

Ummm... Geeez.... thanks. I think. ;-) Didn't notice at the Grand Prix what little hair I have left is mostly grey, eh? LOL Not to worry, I haven't got the art of keyboard/mouse down any more than I've got the left foot braking down in driving sims. <g> I do die with more 'style points' in GPL as well, I'll admit! -- Chuck Kandler A man is no less a Slave just because he is allowed to choose a new Master every four years. Registered Linux User #180746 http://counter.li.org

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> > Plus Papyrus seem more interested in specialising in Nascar > > than developing a GPL franchise. > > > > You look at something like the "test drive" series - awful games, > > but I guess they were at least moneyspinners. > > > > Maybe the marketers let them down, somehow Papy needed > > to communicate that the simulation was technically up to date, > > even if what it simulated wasn't. > > > > -- > > Steven Crook-Dawkins

Sierra/Papyrus lost their shirt on GPL. From what we have been able to find out, they only sold around 45,000 copies. For whatever reasons GPL didn't sell, numbers like these will put a software house right out of business. Right now the Nascar titles that Papyrus creates are keeping the company in the black. So you can continue to expect to see this trend continuing. Although there are rumors around that Papyrus is about ready to do something with the GPL physics engine and a open wheel series. Joel Willstein

I can't imagine Papyrus won't use the physics engine again - but you'd have to say an open wheel game would work best and then of course you run into licensing problems. Modern f1 is concerned with money alone and won't be interested in a game glorifying something so insignificant as driving ability. ----------------------------------------------------------- Got questions? Get answers over the phone at Keen.com. Up to 100 minutes free! http://www.keen.com

On Sat, 22 Jul 2000 08:03:18 -0700, bog <[email hidden]> wrote: > Modern f1 is concerned with money alone and won't be interested in a game glorifying >something so insignificant as driving ability. Replace "Modern f1" with "Bernie Ecclestone" and you'll just about have it. Regards, Brett C. Cammack That's Racing! Motorsports Pompano Beach, FL

On Sat, 22 Jul 2000 09:57:08 -0300, "Joel Willstein" <[email hidden]> wrote: > Sierra/Papyrus lost their shirt on GPL. And yet, somehow, I feel like it will sell longer than the average racing title even if the numbers never get generated. I suspect that the lackluster sales of Nascar Legends pretty much put the last nail in the coffin for Payrus/Sierra *ever* putting out another title with the word "legends" in it. Regards, Brett C. Cammack That's Racing! Motorsports Pompano Beach, FL

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> >Well, you can increase that sales figure by an additional 3. I bought 3 more >copies yesterday as the store was clearing them out at $9.99 each. Gonna >give a >copy to a couple friends, but I wanted another copy myself just to have an >additional set of the manuals - my first copy of "4 Wheel Drift" is pretty >well >worn out. <g>

Where did you buy it at $9.99 each?

Joel Willstein wrote: > > Sierra/Papyrus lost their shirt on GPL. From what we have been able to > find out, they only sold around 45,000 copies. For whatever reasons GPL > didn't sell, numbers like these will put a software house right out of > business. > Well, you can increase that sales figure by an additional 3. I bought 3 more copies yesterday as the store was clearing them out at $9.99 each. Gonna give a copy to a couple friends, but I wanted another copy myself just to have an additional set of the manuals - my first copy of "4 Wheel Drift" is pretty well worn out. <g>

Where did you buy it at $9.99 each?

Hardcore GPL/Flight sim/Unreal Tourney/Rogue Spear Fan here....44 years old. But I agree that it could have been alot more accessable....arcade grip and such would have made it alot more appealing. Damn so many people would have had a ball running thru the Ring even if they didnt know what it was...running thru mountains in a fast car is appealing. PAPA DOC

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>I think it was the pure fact than the game did not appeal to the >game-buying group of 15-30 year old. I know GPL is run by people a lot >"older" than that, but how many of them buy other games like Unreal >Tournament ? > >-- >Olav K. Malmin >remove spam when replying

Pierre PAPA DOC Legrand Flanker Target GPL Crash Dummy Video Card Wizard www.papadoc.net FALCON 4 Benchmarks Rants, Bullshit and Reviews

Media Play had it on sale last week for $9.99. Sale just ended Saturday ... GUCCIPHILE wrote:

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> > > >Well, you can increase that sales figure by an additional 3. I bought 3 more > >copies yesterday as the store was clearing them out at $9.99 each. Gonna > >give a > >copy to a couple friends, but I wanted another copy myself just to have an > >additional set of the manuals - my first copy of "4 Wheel Drift" is pretty > >well > >worn out. <g> > > Where did you buy it at $9.99 each?