Damn, I won't be buying GTR afterall

Because they are putting Starforce protection drivers in it. Even the freaking demo has Starforce in it. I didn't buy HL2 because of Steam and I certainly won't buy anymore games with Starforce after buying Toca2. I classify Starforce as a Trojan. Look it up.

Chris Pound wrote: > Because they are putting Starforce protection drivers in it. Even the > freaking demo has Starforce in it. I didn't buy HL2 because of Steam > and I certainly won't buy anymore games with Starforce after buying > Toca2. I classify Starforce as a Trojan. Look it up. Can't you remove it?

Agreed, Steam sucks!! Just got HL2 yesterday. It IS very cool!! The over rated multi-player part will never be used by me though. Multi is the LEAST important part of any game, IMO. Phil "Chris Pound" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > Because they are putting Starforce protection drivers in it. Even the > freaking demo has Starforce in it. I didn't buy HL2 because of Steam > and I certainly won't buy anymore games with Starforce after buying > Toca2. I classify Starforce as a Trojan. Look it up.

Chris Pound wrote: > Because they are putting Starforce protection drivers in it. Even the > freaking demo has Starforce in it. I didn't buy HL2 because of Steam > and I certainly won't buy anymore games with Starforce after buying > Toca2. I classify Starforce as a Trojan. Look it up. As much as I hate Steam it isnt nearly as bad after a few levels of HL2. Took me a few levels to get out my aggression over having to install steam in the first place. Id be more pissed at myself if I didnt get HL2 because of steam. Starforce isnt nearly as offensive as Steam either. Mitch -- Remove "nospam." to reply. SuSE 9.2 Pro KDE 3.3.2a

Chris Pound wrote: > Because they are putting Starforce protection drivers in it. Even the > freaking demo has Starforce in it. I didn't buy HL2 because of Steam > and I certainly won't buy anymore games with Starforce after buying > Toca2. I classify Starforce as a Trojan. Look it up. It's no big deal.

"Chris Pound" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > Because they are putting Starforce protection drivers in it. Even the > freaking demo has Starforce in it. I didn't buy HL2 because of Steam > and I certainly won't buy anymore games with Starforce after buying > Toca2. I classify Starforce as a Trojan. Look it up. Never even noticed it on my system - it doesn't change anything or harm me or my PC and if it means that good developers get some hard earned cash then good for them. Dags

On Sat, 12 Feb 2005 23:54:47 GMT, "For-Example" <[email hidden]> wrote: >Can't you remove it? >You can remove Starfoce with a removal tool, as I have, but the next time you go to play a Starforce protected game the hidden protection drivers get reinstalled.

On Sun, 13 Feb 2005 00:54:56 GMT, Mitch_A <[email hidden]> wrote: >Starforce isnt nearly as offensive as Steam either. > >Mitch Some people have reported that Starforce screws up Nero somehow. I use Nero.

On Sat, 12 Feb 2005 20:22:48 -0500, JTS <[email hidden]> wrote: >It's no big deal. It is to me. I'm sick of these copy protection schemes screwing with people's computers. Starforce is a hidden driver that can be found by looking in device manager and showing hidden devices. It has been reported to screw with Nero cdrom burning software, which I use. To put it bluntly - I'm just sick of these fucktards and their copy protection schemes and they can go fuck themselves.

Chris Pound wrote:

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> On Sun, 13 Feb 2005 00:54:56 GMT, Mitch_A <[email hidden]> > wrote: > > >>Starforce isnt nearly as offensive as Steam either. >> >>Mitch > > Some people have reported that Starforce screws up Nero somehow. I use > Nero.

I also use Nero on my lone Win box. Version 6.6 Ultra. No issues on either CD or DVD burner with Starforce. What exactly is your issue? Mitch -- Remove "nospam." to reply. SuSE 9.2 Pro KDE 3.3.2a

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>> Chris Pound wrote: >> Because they are putting Starforce protection drivers in it. Even the >> freaking demo has Starforce in it. I didn't buy HL2 because of Steam >> and I certainly won't buy anymore games with Starforce after buying >> Toca2. I classify Starforce as a Trojan. Look it up. > "Mitch_A" wrote: > As much as I hate Steam it isnt nearly as bad after a few levels of HL2. > Took me a few levels to get out my aggression over having to install steam > in the first place. Id be more pissed at myself if I didnt get HL2 > because > of steam. > > Starforce isnt nearly as offensive as Steam either.

Well put! I feel pretty much the same. HL2 was about a click and a half away from getting kicked to the curb! My first 3 attempts at installing failed. After calling their tech support (somewhere in India) and another failed install attempt they said that I had to exchange my game for a new copy! >;( I did finally get it to work, and the game is really great!!! Steam is a REAL Pain in the Arse! It does have some benefits but should be more of an elective process! So far I have had no problems with the new GTR demo... *knocking on wood* This new 'SPA at dusk' demo Rocks! That 'Starforce' thing would need to be really BAD to stop me from canceling my world release pre-order! >;) I can't wait!!! -- Pete "If everything seems under control, you're just not going fast enough." - Mario Andretti.

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] says...

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> On Sat, 12 Feb 2005 20:22:48 -0500, JTS <[email hidden]> wrote: > > > >It's no big deal. > > It is to me. I'm sick of these copy protection schemes screwing with > people's computers. Starforce is a hidden driver that can be found by > looking in device manager and showing hidden devices. It has been > reported to screw with Nero cdrom burning software, which I use. To > put it bluntly - I'm just sick of these fucktards and their copy > protection schemes and they can go fuck themselves.

Those "fucktards" are only trying to protect their investment and make a few bucks for their hard work. If it weren't for people stealing software, it wouldn't be necessary. THEY are the real fucktards (I like that word.) The crackers are getting more and more clever so the developers have to try to keep pace. Do you really think they like having to spend development time working on copy protection schemes when they could be putting those hours to work on the actual game? What is it about what they are doing that makes you so angry? Please be specific. -- _________________________ Todd Walker _________________________

I tend to agree with the hackers and cheats comments. If people would just pay for the stinking stuff we wouldn't have to worry about it. "Darren Duncan" <darren@(nospam)kta.att.ne.jp> wrote in message news:cumjfr$26i$[email hidden]...

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> > "Chris Pound" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... >> Because they are putting Starforce protection drivers in it. Even the >> freaking demo has Starforce in it. I didn't buy HL2 because of Steam >> and I certainly won't buy anymore games with Starforce after buying >> Toca2. I classify Starforce as a Trojan. Look it up. > > Never even noticed it on my system - it doesn't change anything or harm me > or my PC and if it means that good developers get some hard earned cash > then good for them. > > Dags >

Perhaps it's the assumption the publishers make that he's a thief. These copy protection schemes only annoy legitimate customers - users of pirate versions don't have to put with them. -- Andre ---------------------------------------- "Todd Walker" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > What is it about what they are doing that makes you so angry? Please be > specific. > > -- > _________________________ > Todd Walker > _________________________

Chris Pound wrote: > Because they are putting Starforce protection drivers in it. Even the > freaking demo has Starforce in it. I didn't buy HL2 because of Steam > and I certainly won't buy anymore games with Starforce after buying > Toca2. I classify Starforce as a Trojan. Look it up. Your loss. GTR installer tells you that it will install StarForce. Classify that as you may. And to all Nero users: I use Nero too, no problems with StarForce there. And if you do encounter troubles with it, contact StarForce tech support. They can't fix what they don't know about. They're quite helpful too.

The irony is that the protection is already broken and you can download the game so starforce has done nothing to solve piracy but it has pissed off a lot of people who bought the game. They are always the ones to suffer. _____ Steve "Military intelligence, two words combined that can't make sense." Todd Walker wrote:

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> Those "fucktards" are only trying to protect their investment and make a > few bucks for their hard work. If it weren't for people stealing > software, it wouldn't be necessary. THEY are the real fucktards (I like > that word.) > > The crackers are getting more and more clever so the developers have to > try to keep pace. Do you really think they like having to spend > development time working on copy protection schemes when they could be > putting those hours to work on the actual game?

And those "FT"s will know as well as the rest of us that their copy protection will make ZERO difference to those to whom such copy protection is the starting gun in a race to see who can beat it the earliest. Therefore the protection serves only as a punishment for the purchaser, and a very minor impediment for the would be pirate. As the DRM debate says, trying to keep an honest user honest is like trying to keep a tall user tall. I refused to buy HL2 for the reason of Steam, and I'll surely refuse to buy GTR if it insists on dumping hidden files on my computer. John

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> Those "fucktards" are only trying to protect their investment and make a > few bucks for their hard work. If it weren't for people stealing > software, it wouldn't be necessary. THEY are the real fucktards (I like > that word.) > > The crackers are getting more and more clever so the developers have to > try to keep pace. Do you really think they like having to spend > development time working on copy protection schemes when they could be > putting those hours to work on the actual game? > > What is it about what they are doing that makes you so angry? Please be > specific. >

We probably don't want the Mr Angry's of this world racing GTR anyway. I tend to side with the people here who have had no problems, it's only a game and I know hundreds of people who won't be buying because it's a driving game, so a few who don't buy it for other reasons is fine. -- Andi. Remove only one zero to reply "Jussi Koukku" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:cun612$fv3$[email hidden]... > Chris Pound wrote: > > Because they are putting Starforce protection drivers in it. Even the > > freaking demo has Starforce in it. I didn't buy HL2 because of Steam > > and I certainly won't buy anymore games with Starforce after buying > > Toca2. I classify Starforce as a Trojan. Look it up. > > Your loss. > > GTR installer tells you that it will install StarForce. Classify that as > you may. > > And to all Nero users: I use Nero too, no problems with StarForce there. > And if you do encounter troubles with it, contact StarForce tech > support. They can't fix what they don't know about. They're quite > helpful too.

Andi Cole wrote: > We probably don't want the Mr Angry's of this world racing GTRanyway. I > tend to side with the people here who have had no problems, it's onlya game > and I know hundreds of people who won't be buying because it's adriving

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> game, so a few who don't buy it for other reasons is fine. > > -- > Andi. > > Remove only one zero to reply > > > "Jussi Koukku" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:cun612$fv3$[email hidden]... > > Chris Pound wrote: > > > Because they are putting Starforce protection drivers in it. Even

the > > > freaking demo has Starforce in it. I didn't buy HL2 because ofSteam > > > and I certainly won't buy anymore games with Starforce afterbuying > > > Toca2. I classify Starforce as a Trojan. Look it up. > > > > Your loss. > > > > GTR installer tells you that it will install StarForce. Classifythat as > > you may. > > > > And to all Nero users: I use Nero too, no problems with StarForcethere. > > And if you do encounter troubles with it, contact StarForce tech > > support. They can't fix what they don't know about. They're quite > > helpful too. Always causes me major eye-rolling when people whine about things like Starforce or SafeDisc - you probably already have several far more insidious "drivers" lurking around on your machine that you dont even know about - it's like a smoker complaining about air pollution. Fact is, the makers of these products pitch them to retailers. And they have a done such a good job of convincing retailers that this stuff works, today no retailer will accept a game without some kind of copy protection. I've heard all the arguments, pro and con. If these products cause legitimate harm to your computer, then your complaint is warranted. Too often, it's just selective griping about an easy target like Starforce. Ya know, we wouldn't need cops if it wasnt for all those damn *crooks* . . . j c

If it doesn't stay within it's own domain (the game), and alters my system or adds background tasks, then I'll be skipping over it too. I purchased HL2 and I am VERY upset with how it works (Steam). I haven't played it more than 15 min since I bought it. I want to sell it, but because of the draconian system that's involved I don't even know if that's possible. -Larry "Chris Pound" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > Because they are putting Starforce protection drivers in it. Even the > freaking demo has Starforce in it. I didn't buy HL2 because of Steam > and I certainly won't buy anymore games with Starforce after buying > Toca2. I classify Starforce as a Trojan. Look it up.

Larry wrote:

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> If it doesn't stay within it's own domain (the game), and alters my system > or adds background tasks, then I'll be skipping over it too. > > I purchased HL2 and I am VERY upset with how it works (Steam). I haven't > played it more than 15 min since I bought it. > > I want to sell it, but because of the draconian system that's involved I > don't even know if that's possible. > > -Larry > > "Chris Pound" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... >> Because they are putting Starforce protection drivers in it. Even the >> freaking demo has Starforce in it. I didn't buy HL2 because of Steam >> and I certainly won't buy anymore games with Starforce after buying >> Toca2. I classify Starforce as a Trojan. Look it up.

Honestly Larry I think your blaming the wrong crowd. Youre aiming at the "easy" tgt instead of the crooks whose fault this really is. We live in an era of "lowest common denominator" sadly and its only going to get worse so Id suggest hanging up the PC now before you give yourself a heart attack ;) Up till recently the internet has been the wild wild west of our generation. Do you think its now ok to go around shooting people at a poker table now as it was in 1880? Well thats how future generations will look back and see this time period of the internet IMO. I could be wrong but history sets a pretty good example. Mitch -- Remove "nospam." to reply. SuSE 9.2 Pro KDE 3.3.2a

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> Honestly Larry I think your blaming the wrong crowd. Youre aiming at the > "easy" tgt instead of the crooks whose fault this really is. We live in > an > era of "lowest common denominator" sadly and its only going to get worse > so > Id suggest hanging up the PC now before you give yourself a heart attack > ;) > > Up till recently the internet has been the wild wild west of our > generation. > Do you think its now ok to go around shooting people at a poker table now > as it was in 1880? Well thats how future generations will look back and > see this time period of the internet IMO. I could be wrong but history > sets a pretty good example.

I would have to agree. Maybe I've been lucky but I haven't had any problems with Starforce or Steam. I was dead against Steam when it first came out but I've grown to like it. Obviously all of us would prefer not to have any of this sort of stuff but if I was game developer, I'd feel like I had no choice.

The wonderful thing about freedom of choice is just that; the freedom to choose. Like you, I abhor insidious programs which, whilst protecting copyright, "invade" my computer in order to do so. So I won't be buying GTR either....not that such a move will bring the developer crashing to its knees in a flurry of stock exchange selling transactions, but I will be disappointed, as I was looking forward to this sim as a possible "replacement" for GPL. However, what this just might do is to have me looking elsewhere other than the local retailer for a copy; now how ironic would *that* be?!! :) Bruce "Chris Pound" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > Because they are putting Starforce protection drivers in it. Even the > freaking demo has Starforce in it. I didn't buy HL2 because of Steam > and I certainly won't buy anymore games with Starforce after buying > Toca2. I classify Starforce as a Trojan. Look it up.

I was thinking that myself Bruce and it is ironic. They spent a ton of money to pay protection developers only to have it cracked within weeks. In the end, the honest consumer gets charged more for this protection to be added and is the one who gets it up the ass. The hackers and pirates end up laughing while the average Joe ends up not being able to even make a backup copy. Now isn't the joke on us, the legitimate consumer. Wag "Bruce Kennewell" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:4210184d$[email hidden]... The wonderful thing about freedom of choice is just that; the freedom to choose. Like you, I abhor insidious programs which, whilst protecting copyright, "invade" my computer in order to do so. So I won't be buying GTR either....not that such a move will bring the developer crashing to its knees in a flurry of stock exchange selling transactions, but I will be disappointed, as I was looking forward to this sim as a possible "replacement" for GPL. However, what this just might do is to have me looking elsewhere other than the local retailer for a copy; now how ironic would *that* be?!! :) Bruce "Chris Pound" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > Because they are putting Starforce protection drivers in it. Even the > freaking demo has Starforce in it. I didn't buy HL2 because of Steam > and I certainly won't buy anymore games with Starforce after buying > Toca2. I classify Starforce as a Trojan. Look it up.

Lots of good points here, but I have never bought the "backup copy" excuse. I have *never* had a CD rendered useless though misuse or loss. What are you doing with these CD's that has forced you to try and make a "backup" of it? I mean I take out CD's and toss them onto my desktop all the time and some of them (GPL for one) don't look factory fresh, but all of them read perfectly. I do agree that the Mfg's won't be crawling to our doors trying to sell software to us due to Steam, Starforce, etc., but neither will they for the relatively small number of "alternative" purchase locations. If the latest demo has the protection as reported and the full version runs as well as the demo, then I have no problem with the software company at least (in their minds) trying to protect their property.

> If the latest demo has the protection as reported and the full version > runs as well as the demo, then I have no problem with the software > company at least (in their minds) trying to protect their property. If a relatively insignificant thing like Starforce causes you to miss out on a piece of sim history then you need to get your priorities right. Some people pretend to have such high moral fibre and yet they're really just scared of the unknown and are too lazy to try to understand it.

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] says... > They spent a ton of money to pay protection developers only to have it cracked within weeks. In the end, the honest consumer gets charged more for this protection to be added and is the one who gets it up the ass. The hackers and pirates end up laughing while the average Joe ends up not being able to even make a backup copy. Now isn't the joke on us, the legitimate consumer. > So what should the developers do? Just forget copy protection and say "OK crackers, you've won. We aren't going to copy protect our software because it's not worth the hassle." In the early 90s I used a Commodore Amiga. I was FAR superior to anything in the PC world at the time, and the PC didn't catch up until the late 90s. The Amiga should be a force in the market today but it's not. Why? Two reasons: 1. the idiots who ran Commodore; 2. software piracy. Most Amiga games were'nt copy protected and piracy was rampant in the Amiga community. Of course this isn't going to happen to the PC but you get my point. Piracy is a real threat and must be addressed by software developers somehow. Do you really think they like having to spend their development time writing copy protection into their software? -- _________________________ Todd Walker http://www.toddwalker.net _________________________

I'm not using the "'backup copy' excuse". All I'm saying is that, if the legitimate purchase of GTR includes Starforce copyright protection then I won't be making a legitimate purchase. And if I haven't got a legitimate copy, how can I make a backup? As for Steve's comment about "prior" and "sim history" and "moral fibre" (odd that you didn't spell it the American way, Steve!) all that I have to say in response to the first is "game", to the second, "game" and to the third, "will that help prevent constipation?" Now, where wuz that warez URL........... Cheers! Bruce "Darus" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... . .... but I have never bought the "backup copy" excuse.

Todd, piracy had stuff-all to do with the demise of the Amiga. Bruce. "Todd Walker" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... Two reasons: 1. the idiots who ran Commodore; 2. software piracy. Most Amiga games were'nt copy protected and piracy was rampant in the Amiga community.

It stopped Word Perfect from continuing to support the amiga and piracy did kill the Atari (my opinion and just to continue the thread) ;) On Mon, 14 Feb 2005 19:57:49 +1100, "Bruce Kennewell" <[email hidden]> wrote: >Todd, piracy had stuff-all to do with the demise of the Amiga. > >Bruce. >

On 13 Feb 2005 20:13:26 -0800, "Darus" <[email hidden]> wrote: >Lots of good points here, but I have never bought the "backup copy" >excuse. I have *never* had a CD rendered useless though misuse or loss. >What are you doing with these CD's that has forced you to try and make >a "backup" of it? Well....I remember I had to buy Diablo 2 for a second time because of the play disk getting worn... Since then I first try an "evalution" copy, and only if that works I'll buy it. Cheers! Remco

On Mon, 14 Feb 2005 06:36:24 GMT, Todd Walker <[email hidden]> wrote: >So what should the developers do? Whatever they do, at least don't use something which will sabotage other present programs, like Nero. I also remember I tried to update my legal copy of Operation Flashpoint, which didn't work. The reason was that the update installer found a CD writer on my PC, and just stopped updating OF without any message.... Cheers! Remco

I didn't say that you were. The quote "The hackers and pirates end up laughing while the average Joe ends up not being able to even make a backup copy." was attributed to 'B Wegner'. Perhaps you overlooked that? Bruce Kennewell wrote: > I'm not using the "'backup copy' excuse". > All I'm saying is that, if the legitimate purchase of GTR includesStarforce

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> copyright protection then I won't be making a legitimate purchase. > And if I haven't got a legitimate copy, how can I make a backup? > ...... > > Now, where wuz that warez URL........... > > Cheers! > Bruce > > "Darus" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > . > .... but I have never bought the "backup copy" excuse.

On Mon, 14 Feb 2005 19:57:49 +1100, Bruce Kennewell wrote: > Todd, piracy had stuff-all to do with the demise of the Amiga. > > Bruce. > I had hoped somebody besides me would point that out. Thanks Bruce ;-) "They should cane the little brown fscker" is a famous quote by who, uttered when and where? ;-) Cheers, uwe -- GPG Fingerprint: 2E 13 20 22 9A 3F 63 7F 67 6F E9 B1 A8 36 A4 61

On Mon, 14 Feb 2005 10:32:56 GMT, [email hidden] wrote: > It stopped Word Perfect from continuing to support the amiga and > ;) and me ;-) wordperfect was a shabby dos program back then, wasn't it? Look where it got them ;-) Cheers, uwe

"Todd Walker" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> In article <[email hidden]>, > [email hidden] says... > > On Sat, 12 Feb 2005 20:22:48 -0500, JTS <[email hidden]> wrote: > > > > > > >It's no big deal. > > > > It is to me. I'm sick of these copy protection schemes screwing with > > people's computers. Starforce is a hidden driver that can be found by > > looking in device manager and showing hidden devices. It has been > > reported to screw with Nero cdrom burning software, which I use. To > > put it bluntly - I'm just sick of these fucktards and their copy > > protection schemes and they can go fuck themselves. > > Those "fucktards" are only trying to protect their investment and make a > few bucks for their hard work. If it weren't for people stealing > software, it wouldn't be necessary. THEY are the real fucktards (I like > that word.)

Yes, but they DO NOT STOP the theives. Software pirates get around the protection schemes. They only make life hard for paying customers.

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> The crackers are getting more and more clever so the developers have to > try to keep pace. Do you really think they like having to spend > development time working on copy protection schemes when they could be > putting those hours to work on the actual game? > > What is it about what they are doing that makes you so angry? Please be > specific.

See above. They punish the honest users in their utterly futile attempts to stop piracy. WS > _________________________ > Todd Walker > _________________________

Well after an install msmsgr quit workin,cant update or reinstall,bootstrap setup error,msiexec.exe errors,so I doubt I'll be buying it either lol bernard spilman wrote:

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> "Todd Walker" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > >>In article <[email hidden]>, >>[email hidden] says... >> >>>On Sat, 12 Feb 2005 20:22:48 -0500, JTS <[email hidden]> wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>>>It's no big deal. >>> >>>It is to me. I'm sick of these copy protection schemes screwing with >>>people's computers. Starforce is a hidden driver that can be found by >>>looking in device manager and showing hidden devices. It has been >>>reported to screw with Nero cdrom burning software, which I use. To >>>put it bluntly - I'm just sick of these fucktards and their copy >>>protection schemes and they can go fuck themselves. >> >>Those "fucktards" are only trying to protect their investment and make a >>few bucks for their hard work. If it weren't for people stealing >>software, it wouldn't be necessary. THEY are the real fucktards (I like >>that word.) > > > Yes, but they DO NOT STOP the theives. Software pirates get around > the protection schemes. They only make life hard for paying customers. > > >>The crackers are getting more and more clever so the developers have to >>try to keep pace. Do you really think they like having to spend >>development time working on copy protection schemes when they could be >>putting those hours to work on the actual game? >> >>What is it about what they are doing that makes you so angry? Please be >>specific. > > > See above. They punish the honest users in their utterly futile attempts > to stop piracy. > WS > > >>_________________________ >>Todd Walker >>_________________________ > > >

"Bruce Kennewell" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:4210184d$[email hidden]...

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> The wonderful thing about freedom of choice is just that; the freedom to > choose. > Like you, I abhor insidious programs which, whilst protecting copyright, > "invade" my computer in order to do so. > So I won't be buying GTR either....not that such a move will bring the > developer crashing to its knees in a flurry of stock exchange selling > transactions, but I will be disappointed, as I was looking forward to this > sim as a possible "replacement" for GPL. > > However, what this just might do is to have me looking elsewhere other > than > the local retailer for a copy; now how ironic would *that* be?!! :) >

From my experience this is just like all the paranoia surrounding FILSCA ie it's a load of crap - fear of the unknown. I've had GTR for over a month. Had a few teething probs geting the game to install but this was due to not having the lastest starforce drivers. No problems since. I'm betting some goose has stuffed up their system somehow, can't work out how, and has used starforce as a scapegoat!

"Remco Moedt" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> On Mon, 14 Feb 2005 06:36:24 GMT, Todd Walker <[email hidden]> > wrote: > >>So what should the developers do? > > Whatever they do, at least don't use something which will sabotage > other present programs, like Nero. I also remember I tried to update > my legal copy of Operation Flashpoint, which didn't work. The reason > was that the update installer found a CD writer on my PC, and just > stopped updating OF without any message.... >

So what are you saying Remco, that this starforce stuff can interfere with CD/DVD drives and their software?

"Byron Forbes" wrote: > From my experience this is just like all the paranoia surrounding FILSCA > ie it's a load of crap - fear of the unknown. I've had GTR for over a > month. Had a few teething probs geting the game to install but this was > due to not having the lastest starforce drivers. No problems since. The innocent victim though is the non technical or new to PC user who wouldn't have a clue about downloading drivers. Not everyone will get past the teething troubles. If it doesn't install out of the box it doesn't work. The techies and the pirates won't find it a problem. PC compatibility issues are great enough without adding to them. A danger is a segment of the market will be driven to the simple to use consoles and that is where the major development will go.

So you are saying that if GTR (which is hailed by many as the ULTIMATE SIM TO DATE) doesn't install out of the box, then then the poor noobie will go to consoles? Good. Why would such a person even BUY a true sim like GTR, it isn't NFS (i.e. an arcade racer) where you load the game, set the controls and then off to the races. If they can't comprehend how to dload patches and keep their rig up to date, then how is this poor soul going to handle complex setups for GTR and be able to use MOTEC?

Steve Simpson wrote: > If a relatively insignificant thing like Starforce causes you to miss out on > a piece of sim history then you need to get your priorities right. Some > people pretend to have such high moral fibre and yet they're really just > scared of the unknown and are too lazy to try to understand it. And some people actually HAVE high moral fibre, and are extremely concerned about the potential "mission creep" of such unnecessary software. As we all know, if you were going to buy this game/sim, this will make no difference. For those who were going pirate it, likewise, this will make no difference. It will however install yet more unnecessary arbitrary clutter onto a Windows machine, and let's face it, THAT is just asking for trouble :-)

"Darus" wrote...

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> So you are saying that if GTR (which is hailed by many as > the ULTIMATE SIM TO DATE) doesn't install out of the box, > then then the poor noobie will go to consoles? Good. > > Why would such a person even BUY a true sim like GTR, it > isn't NFS (i.e. an arcade racer) where you load the game, > set the controls and then off to the races. If they can't > comprehend how to dload patches and keep their rig up to > date, then how is this poor soul going to handle complex > setups for GTR and be able to use MOTEC?

Er... in which way do understanding vehicle setups and the ability to use MOTEC relate to being computer savvy? A lot of people's jobs/hobbies involve a complex subjectmatter and require them to be intelligent, but only a small portion of them is computer savvy. As our hobby is essentially computer related, those who persevere with it will pick up the nescessary skills as they go along(*), but I also think it's important to not scare away that first time user. I'd rather resort to my bark/bite if he/she turns out to be a PITA, than have them quit from the off. Jan. =--- (*)Rem.: I didn't know much about computers when I started out. Luckily, Crammond's GP1 worked out of the box. ;-)

Todd Walker wrote: > In the early 90s I used a Commodore Amiga. I was FAR superior to > anything in the PC world at the time, and the PC didn't catch up until > the late 90s. The Amiga should be a force in the market today but it's > not. Why? Two reasons: 1. the idiots who ran Commodore; 2. software > piracy. Most Amiga games were'nt copy protected and piracy was rampant > in the Amiga community. I was also heavily into Amiga, and remember it being heavily copy-protected. Trouble was, as today, the "scene" cracks everything and distributes it. I really can't see that changing, and anti-piracy actions will stop the same miniscule percentage of pirates now as they did then, and confusticate the same proportion of legitimate owners. John

Darus wrote:

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> So you are saying that if GTR (which is hailed by many as the ULTIMATE > SIM TO DATE) doesn't install out of the box, then then the poor noobie > will go to consoles? Good. > > Why would such a person even BUY a true sim like GTR, it isn't NFS > (i.e. an arcade racer) where you load the game, set the controls and > then off to the races. If they can't comprehend how to dload patches > and keep their rig up to date, then how is this poor soul going to > handle complex setups for GTR and be able to use MOTEC?

Darus, believe it or not, you were a poor noobie once upon a time, as was everyone here. (Actually my wife may reckon it would be better if I had switched over to a console, as she's watched me at Grand Prix, ICR, GPL etc etc over the years!)

Uwe Sch�rkamp wrote: >>Todd, piracy had stuff-all to do with the demise of the Amiga. > I had hoped somebody besides me would point that out. Thanks Bruce ;-) > > "They should cane the little brown fscker" is a famous quote by who, > uttered when and where? ;-) Commodore employee (don't remember her name though) in Dave H's Deathbed Vigil video. Referring to Mehdi Ali, a name that will (and should) forever live on in infamy. Do I win a prize..? ;) Regards, Rudy (former staff editor of the Dutch Amiga Magazine) (GPLRank -24)

Agreed, I was a poor noobie once and I have learned a lot since then. So why can't the "dissenters" here do the same and learn about the various copy protection schemes and how they (FOR THE MOST PART) do not negatively affect most computer OS's and other hard/software. Sure, there are exceptions just as those who have stutter problems with GTR, some have relief with the VBSTRATEGY=0 fix, where others see no difference. Aside from the handful of ppl. here in RAS, I haven't read anything about significant problems installing GTR, whereas GTP which AFAIK does not contain copy protection of an kind, caused havoc with tons of ppl. Perhaps we should flame on about Redline Dev. and their lousy install routine? As far as setups and telemetry having anything to do with one another, I was simply (apparently unsuccessfully) trying to show that a simple and very common task such as dloading a patch or updating drivers is far more easy to handle than trying to fix an understeer problem. I have been using racing sims for a long time (Indy 500 & Bill Elliott Racing for Amiga) and still haven't mastered the art of setting up a car properly. So we need to protect the innocent from copy protection but throw them to the wolves when it comes to making a GT car drivable for someone who saw the title on shelf and said "Wow, cool, a racecar game!"? :shrug:

"Darus" wrote:

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> As far as setups and telemetry having anything to do with one another, > I was simply (apparently unsuccessfully) trying to show that a simple > and very common task such as dloading a patch or updating drivers is > far more easy to handle than trying to fix an understeer problem. I > have been using racing sims for a long time (Indy 500 & Bill Elliott > Racing for Amiga) and still haven't mastered the art of setting up a > car properly. So we need to protect the innocent from copy protection > but throw them to the wolves when it comes to making a GT car drivable > for someone who saw the title on shelf and said "Wow, cool, a racecar > game!"? :shrug:

Although I understand your point, being suitably adept at racing and computers doesn't necessarily go hand in hand. I am sure many very good real life professional drivers are clueless with a PC. Equally many highly intelligent people who would enjoy a first class sim may not have sufficient PC expertise to even know where to look to find a fix for a game they have just installed and may simply not have the time nor inclination to learn.

To be honest, I don't care what the reasons are, just the effect on ME. Yes, that may be selfish, but I am the one paying out the hard earned money so I believe I have a right to be selfish :) -Larry "Mitch_A" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:P7QPd.4652$[email hidden]...

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> Larry wrote: > >> If it doesn't stay within it's own domain (the game), and alters my >> system >> or adds background tasks, then I'll be skipping over it too. >> >> I purchased HL2 and I am VERY upset with how it works (Steam). I haven't >> played it more than 15 min since I bought it. >> >> I want to sell it, but because of the draconian system that's involved I >> don't even know if that's possible. >> >> -Larry >> >> "Chris Pound" <[email hidden]> wrote in message >> news:[email hidden]... >>> Because they are putting Starforce protection drivers in it. Even the >>> freaking demo has Starforce in it. I didn't buy HL2 because of Steam >>> and I certainly won't buy anymore games with Starforce after buying >>> Toca2. I classify Starforce as a Trojan. Look it up. > > Honestly Larry I think your blaming the wrong crowd. Youre aiming at the > "easy" tgt instead of the crooks whose fault this really is. We live in > an > era of "lowest common denominator" sadly and its only going to get worse > so > Id suggest hanging up the PC now before you give yourself a heart attack > ;) > > Up till recently the internet has been the wild wild west of our > generation. > Do you think its now ok to go around shooting people at a poker table now > as it was in 1880? Well thats how future generations will look back and > see this time period of the internet IMO. I could be wrong but history > sets a pretty good example. > > Mitch > -- > Remove "nospam." to reply. > SuSE 9.2 Pro KDE 3.3.2a

You don't own two very large, very inquisitive Gold Retrievers. I used to own the movie "Antz". I don't any more. Well, not all of it at least. -Larry "Darus" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> Lots of good points here, but I have never bought the "backup copy" > excuse. I have *never* had a CD rendered useless though misuse or loss. > What are you doing with these CD's that has forced you to try and make > a "backup" of it? I mean I take out CD's and toss them onto my desktop > all the time and some of them (GPL for one) don't look factory fresh, > but all of them read perfectly. > > I do agree that the Mfg's won't be crawling to our doors trying to sell > software to us due to Steam, Starforce, etc., but neither will they for > the relatively small number of "alternative" purchase locations. > > If the latest demo has the protection as reported and the full version > runs as well as the demo, then I have no problem with the software > company at least (in their minds) trying to protect their property. >

I can't help but bring up a bit of Irony here... Anyone with TRS-80 Roots can't help but remember a program called "SuperUtility Plus". This was THE disk-copying, protection breaking king of Utilities for this machine. This program had basically one purpose in life, and that was to back up or copy so-called Copy-Protected Software. It's Ironic that SuperUtility Plus itself was VERY heavily copy protected, down to purposefully manufactured physical defects in the media itself. No. It would not copy itself. Until it was hacked, of course. You just can't toss a challange out like that and expect to win :) -Larry "John Wallace" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> Todd Walker wrote: > >> In the early 90s I used a Commodore Amiga. I was FAR superior to anything >> in the PC world at the time, and the PC didn't catch up until the late >> 90s. The Amiga should be a force in the market today but it's not. Why? >> Two reasons: 1. the idiots who ran Commodore; 2. software piracy. Most >> Amiga games were'nt copy protected and piracy was rampant in the Amiga >> community. > > I was also heavily into Amiga, and remember it being heavily > copy-protected. Trouble was, as today, the "scene" cracks everything and > distributes it. I really can't see that changing, and anti-piracy actions > will stop the same miniscule percentage of pirates now as they did then, > and confusticate the same proportion of legitimate owners. > > John

Ruud Dingemans <[email hidden]> wrote in news:curahb$bq1$1 @news4.zwoll1.ov.home.nl: > Commodore employee (don't remember her name though) in Dave H's Deathbed > Vigil video. > Huh? DId I die and not get told about it? Figures...I'm always the last to know.... speaking of which,...back to the topic....sortof.... THe Group C mod for F1c has a new update. Service Pak3 with a whole bunch of mid 80's Porches. THe 956 and 962. I once saw a gentlemen racer drive one of those off the track and into a stand of trees. The car was totalled but he walked out unhurt. He praised the construction of the car and stated something like he'd never race again except in that model. So now they have the early 90 Group C, the AMerican Imsa cars and now the studs of Endurance racing from the 80's Quite a huge list of cars and cockpits that are quite good. The first download links are here: http://forum.rscnet.org/showthread.php?t=194156 dh

> As our hobby is essentially computer related, those who persevere with it > will pick up the nescessary skills as they go along(*), but I also think > it's important to not scare away that first time user. I'd rather resort > to my bark/bite if he/she turns out to be a PITA, than have them quit from > the off. It's only people that have screwed systems to begin with that even -know- that Starforce is being installed. If you've got a half decent system that works properly, you won't even know about Starforce. If you're a newbie that doesn't have a decent system and runs into problems, well, that's what technical support is for. The system resources it uses are absolutely negligible and everything on my system (and everyone else I know who owns Starforce games) still works perfectly including Nero. It does have an issue with virtual drives such as the one Nero uses but it gives the user plenty of warning and there are workarounds posted all over the place. Installing MS Office or Adobe Acrobat has more of an impact on your system's speed. I can't believe the intelligent people of this group have fallen for all of the anti-Starforce propaganda spread around the net by all of the pirate-kiddies who still haven't found a decent way to beat Starforce. I will agree with one thing though, there's some very technically savvy people around here who are complete idiots when it comes to PCs. :-\

> Whatever they do, at least don't use something which will sabotage > other present programs, like Nero. I also remember I tried to update > my legal copy of Operation Flashpoint, which didn't work. The reason > was that the update installer found a CD writer on my PC, and just > stopped updating OF without any message.... Well, I just recorded a DVD in Nero 6.6.0.3 after playing GTR - I guess my copy of Nero must be 'special'

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] says...

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> In article <[email hidden]>, > [email hidden] says... > > They spent a ton of money to pay protection developers only to have it cracked within weeks. In the end, the honest consumer gets charged more for this protection to be added and is the one who gets it up the ass. The hackers and pirates end up laughing while the average Joe ends up not being able to even make a backup copy. Now isn't the joke on us, the legitimate consumer. > > > > So what should the developers do? Just forget copy protection and say > "OK crackers, you've won. We aren't going to copy protect our software > because it's not worth the hassle." > > In the early 90s I used a Commodore Amiga. I was FAR superior to > anything in the PC world at the time, and the PC didn't catch up until > the late 90s. The Amiga should be a force in the market today but it's > not. Why? Two reasons: 1. the idiots who ran Commodore; 2. software > piracy. Most Amiga games were'nt copy protected and piracy was rampant > in the Amiga community. > > Of course this isn't going to happen to the PC but you get my point. > Piracy is a real threat and must be addressed by software developers > somehow. Do you really think they like having to spend their development > time writing copy protection into their software? > >

With all this talk of piracy, it got me to thinking if I could come up with a better solution to what is already on offer, and I thought I had something useful in mind and was ready to share with others here, but then it occurred to me. No matter what measures are thought up, all that is required is for someone to come up with a crack that bypasses the code that performs the required validity checking. End of story. Until some form of anti-piracy measure can be thought up that works outside of the code that is left on a user's machine it's always going to be crackable very, very quickly. So with anti-piracy measures not really providing a working solution what does that leave? Unless the games makers can provide something more than just the game that is worth having they are not going to stop piracy from happening. Perhaps it is time for games companies to look at other ways of encouraging users to purchase their games rather than just trying to discourage them from copying them. Putting that to one side, though. As others have already stated, those that are honest will most likely buy the games anyway, regardless of copy protection. As for the habitual pirateers? They're going to keep doing what they do. This leaves those who are somewhere in between. Those who, if the opportunity of free software were put before them, may well say yes. How many are in that number is too difficult to quantify, though I would imagine it is quite large. I know of many, many users who wouldn't think twice about the ramifications of someone giving them a free piece of software on cd. Who wouldn't even consider that they were doing anything illegal or dishonest. Ordinary citizens who wouldn't dare steal from the shopkeeper who's back was turned, but who wouldn't bat an eyelid at getting free software and taking it home and installing it. With those people in mind I would have to side with the copy protection schemes, no matter how irritating and frustrating for that smallish proportion of users who are against such things. If it means that copy protection may well prevent pirated software from become ubiquitous amongst the casual copier then it's not a bad thing. However, that doesn't mean we can't find something better in the future. -- Pete Ives Remove All_stRESS before sending me an email

"Steve Simpson" <[email hidden]> wrote in news:[email hidden]: > Well, I just recorded a DVD in Nero 6.6.0.3 after playing GTR - I > guess my copy of Nero must be 'special' > If you could 'BACKUP' your GTR disc...THEN I'd think it's special. :) dave henrie

2005-02-15, Steve Simpson wrote: > > The system resources it uses are absolutely negligible and everything on my > system (and everyone else I know who owns Starforce games) still works > perfectly including Nero. It does have an issue with virtual drives such as > the one Nero uses but it gives the user plenty of warning and there are So not everything works perfectly... > I can't believe the intelligent people of this group have fallen for all of > the anti-Starforce propaganda spread around the net by all of the > pirate-kiddies who still haven't found a decent way to beat Starforce. The point is that some people just think that this kind of copy-protection is going too far. I'm one of them and I won't be buying GTR because of it. Think about it: it doesn't work, makes the game more expensive, leaves me without the possibility of a backup copy, installs software which interferes with virtual drives. How can anyone in his right mind think this is a good idea? -peter

On Tue, 15 Feb 2005 00:03:11 +0100, Ruud Dingemans wrote:

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> > Referring to Mehdi Ali, a name that will (and should) forever live on in > infamy. > > > > > Do I win a prize..? ;) >

Pick up your beer when you're in the area ;-) Talking of the Deathbed Vigil video, does anyone have a digital copy? My old VCR is acting up and I have no means of converting analog video to digital formats. Cheers & WD, uwe -- GPG Fingerprint: 2E 13 20 22 9A 3F 63 7F 67 6F E9 B1 A8 36 A4 61

And it gets worse still when you consider the fact that the software houses think that they'll defend their huge profits by using a petty protection system! We have to remember: The sim developers probably hate the idea of using starforce to protect their game, because: 1) The software house buys the game from a developer, and the developer gets a sum of money for this, and in a few cases, get a sum per copy sold, but I would think that this is substantial in most cases 2) The developer would like to see as many as possible enjoying his/her game/sim, since she/he knows that the spin-off effect of a massively used sim is huge, and will pay dividends in due time. This discussion is 100% analog to the music industry copy protecting their "cds". Why are they using such a thing? It is because they want to defend their huge profit and ability to shape the market through PR campaigns instead of founding a purchase in quality, craftsmanship and artistry. The artists are bought completely these days, and see little or nothing of the astronomical profit of the record companies. We will see more and more independant game/sim developers since the software houses are exploiting the market and not giving it back to the developers. Just like the music industry. Think of all the talent and ideas out there not being used or developed just because a software house or a record company think they won't pay dividends for *them*! ---Asgeir--- Peter wrote: <snip>

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> > The point is that some people just think that this kind of copy-protection > is going too far. I'm one of them and I won't be buying GTR because of it. > > Think about it: it doesn't work, makes the game more expensive, leaves me > without the possibility of a backup copy, installs software which interferes > with virtual drives. How can anyone in his right mind think this is a good > idea? > > -peter >

On Tue, 15 Feb 2005 03:35:47 +1100, "Byron Forbes" <[email hidden]> wrote:

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> >"Remco Moedt" <[email hidden]> wrote in message >news:[email hidden]... >> On Mon, 14 Feb 2005 06:36:24 GMT, Todd Walker <[email hidden]> >> wrote: >> >>>So what should the developers do? >> >> Whatever they do, at least don't use something which will sabotage >> other present programs, like Nero. I also remember I tried to update >> my legal copy of Operation Flashpoint, which didn't work. The reason >> was that the update installer found a CD writer on my PC, and just >> stopped updating OF without any message.... >> > > So what are you saying Remco, that this starforce stuff can interfere >with CD/DVD drives and their software?

Yes. I had to remove the demo since I couldn't use Nero anymore. Seems like Starforce is doing something when software is installed which can create virtual drives. Cheers! Remco

So you're saying that games/music need to pirated in order to become widespread and succeed. Isn't that the idea of demos/radio play? Are you saying that the entire copyright system should be scrapped?

On Tue, 15 Feb 2005 20:28:11 +1000, "Steve Simpson" <[email hidden]> wrote: >So you're saying that games/music need to pirated in order to become >widespread and succeed. Isn't that the idea of demos/radio play? Are you >saying that the entire copyright system should be scrapped? Well...I bought a few CD's which are protected, and they refused to play in my car cd player.....quite ironic that I had to download the MP3's so I could burn a CD which would play in the car...and basically I only listen to CD's in my car. Cheers! Remco

I am on the verge of claiming that you don't need to scrap something that has no effect. Copy protection has no effect on the distribution of illegal game copies and illegally ripped music. No effect. Except that it makes life oh-so-difficult for the not-so-computer-savvy people. The group of people who are likely not to pay for a game/sim are the ones who would never bother to buy a program if that was the only option, so where is the threat to the software house revenue? None, whatsoever. And yes, for a small, up-and-coming sim developer, with plenty of integrity and ideals, the major way of getting anywhere is by spreading their game widely. In many cases, developers have been able to create a living out of piracy, so to speak, yes. Internet is a gold mine for all those people who have ideas, creativity, integrity and persistence, and THOSE are the threat to the software house revenue, not the piracy. People who run corporates have never understood the nature of internet and regard it as a threat to revenue instead of regarding it as the lands of opportunity. ---Asgeir--- Steve Simpson wrote: > So you're saying that games/music need to pirated in order to become > widespread and succeed. Isn't that the idea of demos/radio play? Are you > saying that the entire copyright system should be scrapped? > >

Remco Moedt wrote:

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> On Tue, 15 Feb 2005 20:28:11 +1000, "Steve Simpson" <[email hidden]> > wrote: > > >>So you're saying that games/music need to pirated in order to become >>widespread and succeed. Isn't that the idea of demos/radio play? Are you >>saying that the entire copyright system should be scrapped? > > > Well...I bought a few CD's which are protected, and they refused to > play in my car cd player.....quite ironic that I had to download the > MP3's so I could burn a CD which would play in the car...and basically > I only listen to CD's in my car. >

You scoundrel !! ;>)

"Tony Rickard" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:7h6Qd.14628$[email hidden]...

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> "Byron Forbes" wrote: > >> From my experience this is just like all the paranoia surrounding FILSCA >> ie it's a load of crap - fear of the unknown. I've had GTR for over a >> month. Had a few teething probs geting the game to install but this was >> due to not having the lastest starforce drivers. No problems since. > > The innocent victim though is the non technical or new to PC user who > wouldn't have a clue about downloading drivers. Not everyone will get past > the teething troubles. If it doesn't install out of the box it doesn't > work. > The techies and the pirates won't find it a problem. PC compatibility > issues > are great enough without adding to them. A danger is a segment of the > market > will be driven to the simple to use consoles and that is where the major > development will go. > > >

I should add that this problem doesn't exist out of the box. Obviously the old starforce drivers were on the original disc. I ran into problems as the patches were installed - one of the newer patches was obviously done in conjunction with the latest starforce drivers.

And what about the guys trying to earn a living from the game, don't they deserve some consideration? -- Andi. Remove only one zero to reply "Larry" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:nEcQd.63455$jn.57082@lakeread06... > To be honest, I don't care what the reasons are, just the effect on ME. > > Yes, that may be selfish, but I am the one paying out the hard earned money > so I believe I have a right to be selfish :) > > -Larry > > "Mitch_A" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:P7QPd.4652$[email hidden]... > > Larry wrote: > > > >> If it doesn't stay within it's own domain (the game), and alters my > >> system > >> or adds background tasks, then I'll be skipping over it too. > >> > >> I purchased HL2 and I am VERY upset with how it works (Steam). I haven't > >> played it more than 15 min since I bought it. > >> > >> I want to sell it, but because of the draconian system that's involved I > >> don't even know if that's possible. > >> > >> -Larry > >> > >> "Chris Pound" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > >> news:[email hidden]... > >>> Because they are putting Starforce protection drivers in it. Even the > >>> freaking demo has Starforce in it. I didn't buy HL2 because of Steam > >>> and I certainly won't buy anymore games with Starforce after buying > >>> Toca2. I classify Starforce as a Trojan. Look it up. > > > > Honestly Larry I think your blaming the wrong crowd. Youre aiming at the > > "easy" tgt instead of the crooks whose fault this really is. We live in > > an > > era of "lowest common denominator" sadly and its only going to get worse > > so > > Id suggest hanging up the PC now before you give yourself a heart attack > > ;) > > > > Up till recently the internet has been the wild wild west of our > > generation. > > Do you think its now ok to go around shooting people at a poker table now > > as it was in 1880? Well thats how future generations will look back and > > see this time period of the internet IMO. I could be wrong but history > > sets a pretty good example. > > > > Mitch > > -- > > Remove "nospam." to reply. > > SuSE 9.2 Pro KDE 3.3.2a > >

I might see if the ol 3000 will boot... hasn't been plugged in since 98 thou :P Uwe Sch�rkamp enlightened us with:

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> On Tue, 15 Feb 2005 00:03:11 +0100, Ruud Dingemans wrote: >> >> Referring to Mehdi Ali, a name that will (and should) forever live >> on in infamy. >> >> >> >> >> Do I win a prize..? ;) >> > > Pick up your beer when you're in the area ;-) > > Talking of the Deathbed Vigil video, does anyone have a digital copy? > My old VCR is acting up and I have no means of converting analog video > to digital formats. > > Cheers & WD, > > uwe

Very well put peter... Peter enlightened us with:

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> In article <[email hidden]>, > [email hidden] says... >> In article <[email hidden]>, >> [email hidden] says... > > This leaves those who are somewhere in between. Those who, if the > opportunity of free software were put before them, may well say yes. > How many are in that number is too difficult to quantify, though I > would imagine it is quite large. I know of many, many users who > wouldn't think twice about the ramifications of someone giving them a > free piece of software on cd. Who wouldn't even consider that they > were doing anything illegal or dishonest. Ordinary citizens who > wouldn't dare steal from the shopkeeper who's back was turned, but > who wouldn't bat an eyelid at getting free software and taking it > home and installing it. > > With those people in mind I would have to side with the copy > protection schemes, no matter how irritating and frustrating for that > smallish proportion of users who are against such things. If it > means that copy protection may well prevent pirated software from > become ubiquitous amongst the casual copier then it's not a bad > thing. However, that doesn't mean we can't find something better in > the future.

Steve Simpson wrote: > Are you saying that the entire copyright system should be scrapped? Copyright and copy protection are two different things. Copyright protects the legal rights of an intellectual property holder. Copy protection punishes honest people by forcing them to swap CDs constantly, install funky drivers, validate through the Internet, use hardware dongles, etc. -- while people who *steal* the software remain blissfully unaware of all this, enjoying a far greater ease of use. Whoever said crime doesn't pay never heard of Steam.

Them greedy SOB's (LOL) I agree with you A.N. too many think quick killing is better than slow moderate "milking" of the customers is usually better. hell look at Winzip... what you figure the pay to use, vs the free user ratio is? all I got (when not at my computer) is a nag screen to keep using it. I paid once waaay back when like 4.x dayz... Asgeir Nesoen enlightened us with:

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> I am on the verge of claiming that you don't need to scrap something > that has no effect. Copy protection has no effect on the distribution > of illegal game copies and illegally ripped music. No effect. Except > that it makes life oh-so-difficult for the not-so-computer-savvy > people. > The group of people who are likely not to pay for a game/sim are the > ones who would never bother to buy a program if that was the only > option, so where is the threat to the software house revenue? None, > whatsoever. > > And yes, for a small, up-and-coming sim developer, with plenty of > integrity and ideals, the major way of getting anywhere is by > spreading their game widely. In many cases, developers have been able > to create a living out of piracy, so to speak, yes. > > Internet is a gold mine for all those people who have ideas, > creativity, integrity and persistence, and THOSE are the threat to > the software house revenue, not the piracy. > > People who run corporates have never understood the nature of internet > and regard it as a threat to revenue instead of regarding it as the > lands of opportunity. > > ---Asgeir--- > > Steve Simpson wrote: >> So you're saying that games/music need to pirated in order to become >> widespread and succeed. Isn't that the idea of demos/radio play? Are you >> saying that the entire copyright system should be scrapped?

"Remco Moedt" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> On Tue, 15 Feb 2005 03:35:47 +1100, "Byron Forbes" > <[email hidden]> wrote: > >> >>"Remco Moedt" <[email hidden]> wrote in message >>news:[email hidden]... >>> On Mon, 14 Feb 2005 06:36:24 GMT, Todd Walker <[email hidden]> >>> wrote: >>> >>>>So what should the developers do? >>> >>> Whatever they do, at least don't use something which will sabotage >>> other present programs, like Nero. I also remember I tried to update >>> my legal copy of Operation Flashpoint, which didn't work. The reason >>> was that the update installer found a CD writer on my PC, and just >>> stopped updating OF without any message.... >>> >> >> So what are you saying Remco, that this starforce stuff can interfere >>with CD/DVD drives and their software? > > Yes. I had to remove the demo since I couldn't use Nero anymore. Seems > like Starforce is doing something when software is installed which can > create virtual drives. > > Cheers! > > > Remco >

I've got GTR installed (German import) with starforce doing what ever it does, I also have Nero 6 & Alcohol 120% v1.9.2 both installed & a DVD-RW drive. I've have had zero problems or conflicts. One thing that may have a bearing is that I don't have Nero or Alcohol running when playing GTR, that includes the Nero check thingy that is put in the run section of the registry on install (WTF is that for BTW).

A couple of laymans points 1. this protection is probably some infringment on your basic rights to have a clean PC...............but get used to it, it WILL become more prevalent. If you dont like it theres 2 solutions, jump up and down and go on a crusade....................or go to console. 2. the protection will not stop all copying, but it will stop a hell of a lot of the "just burn me a quick copy, mate" type of thing that the average joe used to do. its easier for a lot of people to just buy it than find cracks etc and/or search the net (which its not always that obvious where it is) and d/l a gig of code. if it stops 50% of piraters then its paid for itself. i believe it probably stops more like 75%. 3. many types of games software have problems. NFSU2 that i tryed to install for my nephew had a major bug when recognising momo wheels. how do you think uncle PC guru looked after that...........like a PC goose.................. and the little bugger solved it himself !! 4. the number of complaints on the forums of starforce is by no means a majority, and is no more than normal PC game problems like the stutter (of which there appear to be many more) 5. very few PC game problems are life threatening (in this era anyway........maybe in the future). i find it easier to just play the game and sort the problems out as they arise. carlos "Byron Forbes" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:4212109b$0$27859$[email hidden]...

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> > "Tony Rickard" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:7h6Qd.14628$[email hidden]... >> "Byron Forbes" wrote: >> >>> From my experience this is just like all the paranoia surrounding FILSCA >>> ie it's a load of crap - fear of the unknown. I've had GTR for over a >>> month. Had a few teething probs geting the game to install but this was >>> due to not having the lastest starforce drivers. No problems since. >> >> The innocent victim though is the non technical or new to PC user who >> wouldn't have a clue about downloading drivers. Not everyone will get >> past >> the teething troubles. If it doesn't install out of the box it doesn't >> work. >> The techies and the pirates won't find it a problem. PC compatibility >> issues >> are great enough without adding to them. A danger is a segment of the >> market >> will be driven to the simple to use consoles and that is where the major >> development will go. >> >> >> > > I should add that this problem doesn't exist out of the box. Obviously > the old starforce drivers were on the original disc. I ran into problems > as the patches were installed - one of the newer patches was obviously > done in conjunction with the latest starforce drivers. >

Uwe Sch�rkamp wrote: > Pick up your beer when you're in the area ;-) Ah shysse, cannae do that, when I'm in that area I'd probably wanna do a Ring lap or two... oh wait, probably wouldn't notice much difference with my usual driving style anyway! ;) > Talking of the Deathbed Vigil video, does anyone have a digital copy? > My old VCR is acting up and I have no means of converting analog video > to digital formats. Hmmm, I've seen parts of it on the Net (possibly from Dave H's own site), but a whole copy would prob'ly be kinda uh, illegal - but maybe if you ask Dave nicely he'd point you to a hidden file on his server. Regards, Rudy (GPLRank -24)

On Thu, 17 Feb 2005 01:33:57 +0100, Ruud Dingemans wrote: > Hmmm, I've seen parts of it on the Net (possibly from Dave H's own > site), but a whole copy would prob'ly be kinda uh, illegal - but maybe > if you ask Dave nicely he'd point you to a hidden file on his server. Thanks, I'll try that. cheers, uwe -- GPG Fingerprint: 2E 13 20 22 9A 3F 63 7F 67 6F E9 B1 A8 36 A4 61

Darus wrote: > Agreed, I was a poor noobie once and I have learned a lot since then. > So why can't the "dissenters" here do the same and learn about the > various copy protection schemes and how they (FOR THE MOST PART) do not > negatively affect most computer OS's and other hard/software. You assume the dissenters haven't learned. The negative effect is not necessarily the point (although given the near infinite possible combinations of Wintel system, it's a very dangerous assumption to make that it will be "safe" - would you buy a CD for your cat where it had to install something in your engine management system before it would play?). The point, for me at least, is the presumption of guilt, particularly when the programmers themselves know it will make no difference. You criminalise the honest, and have ZERO effect to the dishonest. A real life example may be ID cards - why should I suddenly need to prove who I am? I've lived in a country for years, why suddenly should I need to prove it? Note that I have no problem with that need per se, but it's oh so clear that politicians will start thinking "maybe we can check this", or "maybe gather stats on that", and the slippery slope starts. Same with the software. I wouldn't let anyone install things in my house to bestow upon me the right to give them my sustom, and I sure as heck won't with my PC. Think of me as a thief and you will not get my custom.

"John Wallace" wrote: > ...would you buy a CD for your cat where it had to... You spoil that animal...

Anyone else noticed that it's mainly the Nascar boys bagging GTR/Starforce? Any opportunity to sink the boot into some 'Eurotrash' ....just an observation as an impartial aussie.... ;-)

Steve Simpson wrote: > It's only people that have screwed systems to begin with that even -know- > that Starforce is being installed. If you've got a half decent system that > works properly, you won't even know about Starforce. If you're a newbie > that doesn't have a decent system and runs into problems, well, that's what > technical support is for. Clearly each to his own - in my mind that only makes it worse. It's bad enough I'm assumed to be a pirate, compounded by unnecessary software being installed on my PC, then not being told this is being done to MY property (PC and game). The laws of copyright (i.e. MY right to make reasonable duplicates of MY property) exist for a good reason. The fact that it's "unnoticable" misses the point, or does for me at least.

Asgeir Nesoen wrote:

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> And it gets worse still when you consider the fact that the software > houses think that they'll defend their huge profits by using a petty > protection system! > > We have to remember: The sim developers probably hate the idea of using > starforce to protect their game, because: > 1) The software house buys the game from a developer, and the developer > gets a sum of money for this, and in a few cases, get a sum per copy > sold, but I would think that this is substantial in most cases > 2) The developer would like to see as many as possible enjoying his/her > game/sim, since she/he knows that the spin-off effect of a massively > used sim is huge, and will pay dividends in due time. > > This discussion is 100% analog to the music industry copy protecting > their "cds". Why are they using such a thing? It is because they want to > defend their huge profit and ability to shape the market through PR > campaigns instead of founding a purchase in quality, craftsmanship and > artistry. The artists are bought completely these days, and see little > or nothing of the astronomical profit of the record companies. > > We will see more and more independant game/sim developers since the > software houses are exploiting the market and not giving it back to the > developers. Just like the music industry. Think of all the talent and > ideas out there not being used or developed just because a software > house or a record company think they won't pay dividends for *them*! > > ---Asgeir---

Sorry for the huge quote, but wanted to say "amen!" to that. The record companies sit between the producer and the consumer, and are desperateto milk that position for as long as possible. The first price reduction of music CDs comes TWENTY YEARS after they were released onto the market, and in response to fears over MP3s and P2P. It's funny to read about the fears over China's respect, or lack thereof, for the IP of companies, but watch the reaction of those same companies when you try to put increased rights for their workers. "Nothing should be put as an artificial barrier to a free market" etc. I (almost) can't blame them for their protectionist approach, but I do blame our politicians for being bought by them, and us for voting for the morons. Sorry, getting WAAAAY OT :-)

They will be in Eastern Europe or India somewhere, being paid a fixed pittance by HugeSoftCorp Inc. Andi Cole wrote: > And what about the guys trying to earn a living from the game, don't they > deserve some consideration? >

Carlos_b wrote: > A couple of laymans points > > 1. this protection is probably some infringment on your basic rights to have > a clean PC...............but get used to it, it WILL become more prevalent. > If you dont like it theres 2 solutions, jump up and down and go on a > crusade....................or go to console. Or buy the software and download No_CD crack Or buy someone else's software and TELL the developer why you did it Or, the big worry, people will just steal it. Cheers John

Tony Rickard wrote:

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> "John Wallace" wrote: > > >>...would you buy a CD for your cat where it had to... > > > You spoil that animal...

Lennon's "Shaved Fish" and "Spilt Milk" (Jellyfish) are among it's favourites... Er...doh! "Car" - how could I mistype that on THIS newsgroup!?

> It's bad enough I'm assumed to be a pirate, It's a very fair assumption. In surveys, more than 50% of gamers are prepared to pirate games rather than buy them. http://news.gamewinners.com/index.php/news/1134/ I'm getting tired of hearing 'Why should the honest people suffer?' Well, I don't see how having Starforce on your system will make you suffer. Your PC will take 0.1 seconds longer to boot up - shock and horror. This is nothing compared to most applications. > compounded by unnecessary software being installed on my PC, then not > being told this is being done to MY property (PC and game). Most software installs files that you're not aware of. GTR makes it very clear that Starforce is installed in the license agreement and tells you how to remove it 100%.

> They will be in Eastern Europe or India somewhere, being paid a fixed > pittance by HugeSoftCorp Inc. ^^disgraceful ignorance not even worth commenting on...

Steve Simpson wrote: >>It's bad enough I'm assumed to be a pirate, > It's a very fair assumption. In surveys, more than 50% of gamers are > prepared to pirate games rather than buy them. It's not a fair assumption. Our society is founded upon innocent until proven guilty. If a software company (or any other company) presumes to turn that on it's head, hell mend them. > I'm getting tired of hearing 'Why should the honest people suffer?' Well, I > don't see how having Starforce on your system will make you suffer. Your PC > will take 0.1 seconds longer to boot up - shock and horror. This is nothing > compared to most applications. You miss my point so often - your name MUST be Henman? :-) I truly don't care about how little Starforce does, or that it loads quickly, takes a zilionth of a CPU cycle to run or changes my tire when I get a pinch flat. It shouldn't be there at all. It's not the practicality of it, it's the reasoning. For decades fair use has been enshrined in consumer law - now we are saying "it's only a wee program, it makes no difference really". Except that it stomps all over fair use and tucks the tattered remains into the companies bank account. Everyone knows this won't make any different to piracy. If it did I might support it. If it stopped "professional" pirates churning thousands of bootleg copies I may think twice, but I think the presumption of innocence and the loss of consumer fair-use rights are a FAR too much to concede just so two kiddies in Milwaukee will be stopped from making a copy for each other. I used to buy these and just download a no_cd crack for them or such like, but that still doesn't make the point to those involved. So in the case of HL2, even although the uber-anti-pirate "Steam" was cracked before the game was in the shops, I just didn't buy it. I'd have liked to, I enjoyed the original, but I truly despise such systems

Steve Simpson wrote: > ^^disgraceful ignorance not even worth commenting on... And yet you felt compelled to - lie on my couch and tell me why that is. Did you have a good relationship with your parents...? :-) Actually it's not, it's borne from personal experience of sim-developers. So the disgraceful ignorance, in this case, would belong to yourself?

As someone who owns well in excess of 1000 paid for titles and was a former programmer I won't be buying any games with Starforce. I choose what is installed on my systems and their products won't be. My loss? Maybe, but it will theirs as well. They are entitled to install whatever they see fit but I as a consumer will decide what is appropriate and what isn't. As far as being too "tired of hearing". It reminds me of the old saying. "Have you ever been at a party when you were too tired to listen and to courteous to leave?" Perhaps, you missed your calling as an marketing exec for the Amiga! Sorry, for the sarcasm but some people just don't get it. Pete "Steve Simpson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> > It's a very fair assumption. In surveys, more than 50% of gamers are > prepared to pirate games rather than buy them. > > http://news.gamewinners.com/index.php/news/1134/ > > I'm getting tired of hearing 'Why should the honest people suffer?' Well,

I > don't see how having Starforce on your system will make you suffer. YourPC > will take 0.1 seconds longer to boot up - shock and horror. This isnothing > compared to most applications. > > Most software installs files that you're not aware of. GTR makes it very > clear that Starforce is installed in the license agreement and tells youhow > to remove it 100%. > >

> For decades fair use has been enshrined in consumer law - now we are > saying "it's only a wee program, it makes no difference really". Except > that it stomps all over fair use and tucks the tattered remains into the > companies bank account. You actually make a pretty good point here. I'm from Australia where we have never had any 'fair use' laws. All duplication of copyright material has always been illegal here. I guess if I had previously been allowed to make working backups and this right was taken away from me I might be slightly miffed. That said, if I were a game developer, I'd demand that my products carried Starforce as it causes maximum possible annoyance to pirates with minimum possible annoyance to legit customers.

> And yet you felt compelled to - lie on my couch and tell me why that is. > Did you have a good relationship with your parents...? :-) > > Actually it's not, it's borne from personal experience of sim-developers. > > So the disgraceful ignorance, in this case, would belong to yourself? Simbin are basically members of this community who showed real talent in sim modding and decided to make something of it. They chose a small and relatively new publisher to publish their work. To have a swipe at Simbin is to have a swipe at any of the members of this community who want to earn a living somehow.

I read the other day that one of our ministers is actually pushing for some fair right rules here in Australia. Seems funny that as the USA sinks into the grips of the RIAA, MPAA, etc. we may be going the other way. Yeah, ok - it's wishful thinking, but ... :) -- Andre ---------------------------------------- "Steve Simpson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > ... > You actually make a pretty good point here. I'm from Australia where we > have never had any 'fair use' laws. All duplication of copyright material > has always been illegal here. I guess if I had previously been allowed to > make working backups and this right was taken away from me I might be > slightly miffed. > ...

>I read the other day that one of our ministers is actually pushing for some >fair right rules here in Australia. Seems funny that as the USA sinks into >the grips of the RIAA, MPAA, etc. we may be going the other way. > > Yeah, ok - it's wishful thinking, but ... :) I've read that the reason they're pushing for it is because we're going to be getting a DMCA - basically the same as the USA. I really can't understand why RIAA, ARIA etc have such influence on governments - it's not like the DMCA is going to be a vote catcher.

John Wallace wrote: <snipped my own stuff>

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> > > Sorry for the huge quote, but wanted to say "amen!" to that. The record > companies sit between the producer and the consumer, and are desperateto > milk that position for as long as possible. The first price reduction of > music CDs comes TWENTY YEARS after they were released onto the market, > and in response to fears over MP3s and P2P.

The gaming industry is adapting the same approach, they want to base their purchase numbers on their own PR campaigns and artificially created hypes instead of giving people the quality and content they actually want. And we all know it won't work, partially because people still have their free will (not to buy any particular game), partially because quite a few people consider it worthwhile to lay down a considerable amount of work on free, open-source projects which threaten the quality of the games of the professional business.

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> > It's funny to read about the fears over China's respect, or lack > thereof, for the IP of companies, but watch the reaction of those same > companies when you try to put increased rights for their workers. > "Nothing should be put as an artificial barrier to a free market" etc. I > (almost) can't blame them for their protectionist approach, but I do > blame our politicians for being bought by them, and us for voting for > the morons.

The western societies have never really understood the capitalistic paradigma; The companies do *want* monopoly, or any advantage (fair or unfair) they can get over their competitors. The consumers want the opposite, no monopoly, free trade, free competition under even and fair conditions so that they can get the quality they want to the price they want. A person working in a factory wants monopoly when he is at work (since his job is dependant on the market), and the opposite when he finishes work every day and takes on the cap called "consumer". This dualism is really what threaten our societies of freedom and democracy, not how others feel about the way we think. These two forces are opposite, and what happens when you have two opposite forces? You go nowhere! > Sorry, getting WAAAAY OT :-) Yeah, I know, I have the same problem. Hehe. ---Asgeir---

Steve Simpson wrote: I really can't > understand why RIAA, ARIA etc have such influence on governments - it's > not like the DMCA is going to be a vote catcher. Thats an easy one Steve. Money. Plain and simple. Mitch -- Remove "nospam." to reply. SuSE 9.2 Pro KDE 3.3.2a

Steve Simpson wrote:

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> You actually make a pretty good point here. I'm from Australia where we > have never had any 'fair use' laws. All duplication of copyright material > has always been illegal here. I guess if I had previously been allowed to > make working backups and this right was taken away from me I might be > slightly miffed. > > That said, if I were a game developer, I'd demand that my products carried > Starforce as it causes maximum possible annoyance to pirates with minimum > possible annoyance to legit customers.

Each to his own - in my experience it makes no difference at all to pirates (it could be seen unprotected in the dubious sections of the internet months before release), and causes some annoyance to legit customers. However my main issue is more the presumption that I have wooden leg, parrot and eyepatch, therefore walloping unwanted software onto my PC with gay abandon. Not happy about that! Still, at least they'll sell a copy to you, making up for the one they won't sell to me :-)

Steve Simpson wrote: > Simbin are basically members of this community who showed real talent in sim > modding and decided to make something of it. They chose a small and > relatively new publisher to publish their work. To have a swipe at Simbin > is to have a swipe at any of the members of this community who want to earn > a living somehow. Simbin benefitted greatly from members of the community, and their success was spawned from, and supported by, that community. In any case, I was swiping at their distributor - I doubt Simbin would insist on Starforce.

Steve Simpson wrote: > I've read that the reason they're pushing for it is because we're going to > be getting a DMCA - basically the same as the USA. I really can't > understand why RIAA, ARIA etc have such influence on governments - it's not > like the DMCA is going to be a vote catcher. There's essentially no choice - content wants to be free. Consumers want hardware that communicates, and does so easily. Consumers wil buy hardware for this functionality, and for the content. When you have high capacity devices, communicating easily, it's not a case of if the business model of media distribution companies will fall apart, it's only about when it will be complete. China makes the hardware, China gives no crap about protection (look at DVD region coding disappear once the Chinese companies realised people would pay for machines that ignored it).

John Wallace <[email hidden]> wrote in news:[email hidden]: > Simbin benefitted greatly from members of the community, and their > success was spawned from, and supported by, that community. > > In any case, I was swiping at their distributor - I doubt Simbin would > insist on Starforce. > I marvel and applaud Simbin's efforts...but knowing just a little about their leader, makes me wonder. :) I am a well known crybaby about copy protection, but I'm willing to bend some here when it concerns folks who were just like us... dh

"John Wallace" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> Steve Simpson wrote: > >> You actually make a pretty good point here. I'm from Australia where we >> have never had any 'fair use' laws. All duplication of copyright >> material has always been illegal here. I guess if I had previously been >> allowed to make working backups and this right was taken away from me I >> might be slightly miffed. >> >> That said, if I were a game developer, I'd demand that my products >> carried Starforce as it causes maximum possible annoyance to pirates with >> minimum possible annoyance to legit customers. > > Each to his own - in my experience it makes no difference at all to > pirates (it could be seen unprotected in the dubious sections of the > internet months before release), and causes some annoyance to legit > customers. > > However my main issue is more the presumption that I have wooden leg, > parrot and eyepatch, therefore walloping unwanted software onto my PC with > gay abandon. Not happy about that! >

How can you have copy protection without presumtion of guilt? That's like saying you resent the next door neighbours locking their house because it implies YOU might steal from them otherwise - they are simply trying to lock EVERYONE out!

Byron Forbes wrote:

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> "John Wallace" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... >>However my main issue is more the presumption that I have wooden leg, >>parrot and eyepatch, therefore walloping unwanted software onto my PC with >>gay abandon. Not happy about that! > > How can you have copy protection without presumtion of guilt? That's > like saying you resent the next door neighbours locking their house because > it implies YOU might steal from them otherwise - they are simply trying to > lock EVERYONE out!

The presumption of guilt is exactly my point, allied to the fact the impact is felt predominantly by those innocent of piracy "thoughtcrime". In the case of the neighbour's house, your analogy would need to include that the vast majority of burglars already had a key, and the act of locking the door would be no impediment to them at all (i.e. the act of locking the door would almost exclusively impact those who had no intention to steal. So if not a straw man, then it's just an inappropriate analogy. John

Ruud Dingemans <[email hidden]> wrote: >Referring to Mehdi Ali, a name that will (and should) forever live on in >infamy. Can you plese share the story please? I loved the Amiga, but never heard about this. Joe62

On Sat, 05 Mar 2005 04:19:22 GMT, Joe62 wrote:

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> Ruud Dingemans <[email hidden]> wrote: > >>Referring to Mehdi Ali, a name that will (and should) forever live on in >>infamy. > > Can you plese share the story please? I loved the Amiga, but never > heard about this. > > Joe62

Grab a copy of Dave Haynie's excellent "the deathbed vigil" documentary of the last days of Commodore in West Chester, PA. It's available here: http://www.frogpondmedia.com/ Cheers, Uwe -- GPG Fingerprint: 2E 13 20 22 9A 3F 63 7F 67 6F E9 B1 A8 36 A4 61

I've had the UK version of GTR on pre order from game.co.uk for just over a month. What bothers me more and more is the starforce baggage that comes with it. Does anyone have a link or good information about how it affects a system and what it means to install it ? Basically I'm close to rescinding my order in the light of what Starforce actually does when present and active.

Apart from necessitating the DVD in the DVD-R when I want to play Starforce hasn't had much of an effect. Might add 5-10 seconds to start up as the copy protection checks but thats about it as far as I can tell. I might not be so calm if I ever scratch the disc to the point of giving errors but for now everythings cool. Dave "MrMox" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> I've had the UK version of GTR on pre order from game.co.uk for just > over a month. What bothers me more and more is the starforce baggage > that comes with it. > > Does anyone have a link or good information about how it affects a > system and what it means to install it ? > > Basically I'm close to rescinding my order in the light of what > Starforce actually does when present and active. >

Uwe Sch�rkamp <[email hidden]> wrote: >Grab a copy of Dave Haynie's excellent "the deathbed vigil" >documentary of the last days of Commodore in West Chester, PA. It's >available here: > >http://www.frogpondmedia.com/ Thx! Joe62