Re: Rec auto sims doesnt represent sim players

"and people to back them"... exactly. Jan. =--- Bruce Kennewell <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > <Snip> > What rubbish, Jan! > > As long as there are people like Kaemmer, Crammond and the Wests, andpeople

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> to back them, we WILL see a "pure sim" (whatever THAT might be) again. > > -- > Regards, > Bruce Kennewell, > Canberra, Australia. > ---------------------------

Read the comment next to my name again. ;-) Seriously, if people feel intimidated into silence by me, then they weren't very passionate about what they were about to write anyway, IMO. Why should we shun discussion on this forum? -Nothing brings out more opinions than a harsh point of view. Jan. =--- rrevved wrote... <snip>

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> Nothing personal, but this kind of attitude isn't > exactly helping the cause of sim racing since it > alienates the new users and lurkers from participating here in > the _sim_ newsgroup. > > Again, nothing personal, just an observation. >

Olav K. Malmin wrote... > <snip> > I really don't get this "gives me more prestige, > ego and r.a.s. credibility". You don't? -I thought that was a brilliant jab at the "stereotypical RAS dwelling GPL player". I still have no comeback for it. > I can't talk for other, <good bit snipped>. > > I'm probably missing the argument here, but what the heck... Not at all Olav, you hit the nail right on the head in fact. All the games you mentioned (and which David mentions in another part of the thread) are very good, enjoyable racing racing games. They did not, however, advance the genre (much), which ultimately detracts from their long term appeal. Either GPL was way ahead of it's time (not so, IMO) or, like I said, having the technically most advanced game doesn't shift enough copies (it's not an argument in a sale), so no-one's very keen on risking a dollop of money on developing one. Jan. =---

Nice to see your still around rrevved : ) not much doing with flight sims is there ? Regards Mike On Wed, 19 Jul 2000 09:40:37 -0500, rrevved <[email hidden]> wrote:

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>On Wed, 19 Jul 2000 11:39:21 +0200, "Jan Verschueren" <[email hidden]> wrote: > >>Indeed, people who think High Gear polls are a reference in simracing PLAY >>sims. People who turn to RAS for info DRIVE sims. > >Jan, that is pretty harsh, if you ask me. > >BTW, Jan, if you think that -only- the people in RAS 'drive' sims, >you're mistaken. Your comments reflect exactly the attitude that >the original poster mentioned. Nothing personal, but this kind of >attitude isn't exactly helping the cause of sim racing since it >alienates the new users and lurkers from participating here in >the _sim_ newsgroup. > >Again, nothing personal, just an observation.

On Wed 19 Jul 2000 09:25:24am, Berno wrote: <snip> >Could it be that the 7.94% that think gpl is the be all end all are >the rude smart mouthed people that post the most to this group? Some >of the negative things written about gp3 are downright stupid. My tuppence coming up... I'll be off to EB on Friday to buy GP3, no question about it. I'm desperately hoping it will be as good now as GP2 was then, and I'll be delighted if it is. But at the moment my guess (and yes, that's all it is, but are you really suggesting we shouldn't discuss a game at all until release?) is that it will come into the "very good" category, rather than the "open-mouthed" category that I think GPL is in. And even if GP3 *is* fantastic, I won't stop playing GPL, because I don't only play that for the physics. I like the historic cars, I love the tracks (now my Ring time is reasonable :-) ), and it has wonderful user support (as GP3 will, granted). I don't really like this "either/or" scenario you imply. Come *on*, how many of us only have one game? I play GPL most, yes, but Rally Championship, Rally Masters, Sports Car GT, TOCA 2 and MGPRS2 all get fairly regular runouts. By all means tell us GP3 is the best (when you've played it for a bit), but please tell us *why* you arrived at your opinion. That can help the people who don't yet have it decide if it's for them in much better detail than a couple of magazine quotes. In any case, the one I *really* want is WSC. Now that one just *might* be enough to displace GPL from top spot on my list... -- David. (GPLRank handicap: +2.68) "After all, a mere thousand yards - such a harmless little knoll, really." (Raymond Mays on Shelsley Walsh)

Indeed, here we go again. But you're right Jo. I'm on a (one man?) crusade to stop GP3 being a success just because "it's by Crammond"(tm). I do not particularly like or dislike the guy or his products (although I grew tired of GP2), but I feel each of them should be judged on it's own merits. I mean, Daikatana is not good just because "it's by Romero", now is it? I am trying to safegard my future as a simracer. Because, at the end of the day, how successfull a game is now dictates what type of games we get to play in future. If technically cutting edge racing simulators fail to make money they'll stop being made. With Crammond bowing out of the race a great talent (who in the past was able to combine cutting edge with playability) a great talent is lost to "pure" simracing. If publishers get the message they don't have to "beat" GPL to make money (enough evidence already) they'll stop trying and cut funds for people who are. Here's hoping for N4 and WSC (and to some extend Nascar Heat), if they bomb we won't see a pure sim, ever again. The bar for racing simulations was moved nearly two years ago. The fact developers and publisher have been getting away with ignoring that fact saddens me. Jan./BTW, Re: ego and credibility: touche! =--- Jo Helsen wrote...

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> On Wed, 19 Jul 2000 11:46:04 +0200, "Jan Verschueren" > <Snip> > Here we are again. > > There's absolutely no problem with GPL people preferring GPL. > > There's only a problem with GPL people failing to recognise that > something THEY don't like might nevertheless be exactly that what is > *loved* by the other 99.5% of simracers. And failing to recognise that > these 99.5% might not all be dumb-12yearold-arcade-lovers after all. > > So it's not: "GP3 is crap", but "nice, but I prefer GPL because we al > agree that that gives me more prestige, ego and r.a.s. credibility" > :-) > > JoH

unfortunately, you are probably right, but at least there are sites like High Gear that are more reflective of the average sim fan, a subset of which are GPL fans.

Absolutely agree, I love GPL but I also believe in terms of accessabilty it is deeply flawed (beta tester Alison Hine admits as much) as a 'game' I expect to enjoy GP3 more as a 'sim' I'll tell you on the 28th. The fact is as a father of a 3 year old and someone renovating an 18th centuary cottage I just cannot make enougth time to really enjoy GPL but I still can enjoy GP2 and F1 2000. The have accessability. Regards Mike On Wed, 19 Jul 2000 18:25:24 +1000, "Berno" <[email hidden]> wrote:

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>So much negative energy towards gp3 in this group made me start to belive >that I was one of very few who were looking forward to this game, yet the >poll at high gear has shown me the truth: > >It'll be great. I'll buy it straight-away!: 61.16% > >I think it'll be good, but I'll await the reviews: 25.97% > >What's all the hype about? This can't be any good.: 3.00% > >I don't like F1 Sims.: 1.50% > >Got GPL, who needs anything else.: 7.94% > >Grand Prix 3?!? Can you eat that?: .43% > >Total Votes: 466 > >Could it be that the 7.94% that think gpl is the be all end all are the rude >smart mouthed people that post the most to this group? Some of the negative >things written about gp3 are downright stupid. >

GPL won't hold a candle to WSC when it is released Robert "Mike Blackmore" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> Absolutely agree, > > I love GPL but I also believe in terms of accessabilty it is deeply > flawed (beta tester Alison Hine admits as much) as a 'game' I expect > to enjoy GP3 more as a 'sim' I'll tell you on the 28th. > > The fact is as a father of a 3 year old and someone renovating an 18th > centuary cottage I just cannot make enougth time to really enjoy GPL > but I still can enjoy GP2 and F1 2000. The have accessability. > > Regards Mike > > > On Wed, 19 Jul 2000 18:25:24 +1000, "Berno" <[email hidden]> wrote: > > >So much negative energy towards gp3 in this group made me start to belive > >that I was one of very few who were looking forward to this game, yet the > >poll at high gear has shown me the truth: > > > >It'll be great. I'll buy it straight-away!: 61.16% > > > >I think it'll be good, but I'll await the reviews: 25.97% > > > >What's all the hype about? This can't be any good.: 3.00% > > > >I don't like F1 Sims.: 1.50% > > > >Got GPL, who needs anything else.: 7.94% > > > >Grand Prix 3?!? Can you eat that?: .43% > > > >Total Votes: 466 > > > >Could it be that the 7.94% that think gpl is the be all end all are the

rude > >smart mouthed people that post the most to this group? Some of thenegative > >things written about gp3 are downright stupid. > > >

Indeed, people who think High Gear polls are a reference in simracing PLAY sims. People who turn to RAS for info DRIVE sims. Please refrain from using "High Gear poll" and "truth" in the same sentence, BTW. Berno... Berno... <searches GPLRank> -Nope, not there. You're very lucky you didn't call yourself a simracer. ;-) For the record, there is also good reason for some of the negative comments levelled at GP3. I, personally, expected a lot more from the next Geoff Crammond sim than GP3 looks set to deliver, even if force feedback and TCP/IP support were included (now you don't think the game getting bashed here had anything to do with that, now do you?). Jan./just perpetuating the stereotype. =--- Berno wrote... > So much negative energy towards gp3 in this group > made me start to belive that I was one of very few > who were looking forward to this game, yet the > poll at high gear has shown me the truth: > > <snip>

Whoa... spelling and punctuation alert!! -But that's beside the point. IMO, most of the vocal people are looking at Gp3 objectively (or at least at the little we know about it) and it's the "it's by Crammond, so it's going to be great"-brigade which has lost perspective and gets on it's high horse. Jan./ just edging him on. ;-) =--- Berno wrote... > > Im a huge gpl fan too, what I cant understand is why I can look at other > products objectovely compared to very vocal people here?? Whats up guys? > > <snip>

Let's bloody hope so... nearly two years now since GPL was released and nothing has advanced the genre since. Jan. =--- Robert Platts wrote... > GPL won't hold a candle to WSC when it is released > > Robert

I hope so Rob as well but being objective, it's pure speculation at this time. MS "Robert Platts" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> GPL won't hold a candle to WSC when it is released > > > > Robert > > > "Mike Blackmore" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > Absolutely agree, > > > > I love GPL but I also believe in terms of accessabilty it is deeply > > flawed (beta tester Alison Hine admits as much) as a 'game' I expect > > to enjoy GP3 more as a 'sim' I'll tell you on the 28th. > > > > The fact is as a father of a 3 year old and someone renovating an 18th > > centuary cottage I just cannot make enougth time to really enjoy GPL > > but I still can enjoy GP2 and F1 2000. The have accessability. > > > > Regards Mike > > > > > > On Wed, 19 Jul 2000 18:25:24 +1000, "Berno" <[email hidden]> wrote: > > > > >So much negative energy towards gp3 in this group made me start to

belive > > >that I was one of very few who were looking forward to this game, yetthe

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> > >poll at high gear has shown me the truth: > > > > > >It'll be great. I'll buy it straight-away!: 61.16% > > > > > >I think it'll be good, but I'll await the reviews: 25.97% > > > > > >What's all the hype about? This can't be any good.: 3.00% > > > > > >I don't like F1 Sims.: 1.50% > > > > > >Got GPL, who needs anything else.: 7.94% > > > > > >Grand Prix 3?!? Can you eat that?: .43% > > > > > >Total Votes: 466 > > > > > >Could it be that the 7.94% that think gpl is the be all end all are the > rude > > >smart mouthed people that post the most to this group? Some of the > negative > > >things written about gp3 are downright stupid. > > > > > > >

[email hidden] (Jo Helsen) writes:

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> On Wed, 19 Jul 2000 11:46:04 +0200, "Jan Verschueren" > <[email hidden]> wrote: > > >Whoa... spelling and punctuation alert!! -But that's beside the point. > > > >IMO, most of the vocal people are looking at Gp3 objectively (or at least at > >the little we know about it) and it's the "it's by Crammond, so it's going > >to be great"-brigade which has lost perspective and gets on it's high horse. > > > > Here we are again. > > There's absolutely no problem with GPL people preferring GPL. > > There's only a problem with GPL people failing to recognise that > something THEY don't like might nevertheless be exactly that what is > *loved* by the other 99.5% of simracers. And failing to recognise that > these 99.5% might not all be dumb-12yearold-arcade-lovers after all. > > So it's not: "GP3 is crap", but "nice, but I prefer GPL because we al > agree that that gives me more prestige, ego and r.a.s. credibility" > :-)

First off, Noone has yet tried the finished version of GP3 yet. Second, I can't really wait for next friday when I shall go home from work early and directly to the store. I really don't get this "gives me more prestige, ego and r.a.s. credibility". I can't talk for other, but I guess many GPL addicts here including me is holding this game so high because: For every sim I bought after GPL i've tried them for a while, and enjoyed some of them a lot (SCGT, TOCA2 (until I got fed up with the MSFF non-centering trouble), F1-2000 (specially after some mods)), but history repeats itself and in the end I drive the Ring in the trusty old Ferrari again. This "fact" is what I think drives many people here to say the good old words "It has a lot of good sides, but no GPL". I can't wait to try a sim that proves history wrong. I'm probably missing the argument here, but what the heck... -- Olav K. Malmin remove spam when replying

I Agree Berno.....I have been waiting for years and the gripes that people have been coming up with are very strange indeed and I think there are always the people that will complain for the sake of it........who cares it is their loss if they cant enjoy a game because of some slight inadequacies :) me and berno at least are going to appreciate, what will be undoubtedly be a great game and the thousands of hours of effort that has gone into it. Ash Berno <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:Qsdd5.14776$[email hidden]...

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| So much negative energy towards gp3 in this group made me start to belive | that I was one of very few who were looking forward to this game, yet the | poll at high gear has shown me the truth: | | It'll be great. I'll buy it straight-away!: 61.16% | | I think it'll be good, but I'll await the reviews: 25.97% | | What's all the hype about? This can't be any good.: 3.00% | | I don't like F1 Sims.: 1.50% | | Got GPL, who needs anything else.: 7.94% | | Grand Prix 3?!? Can you eat that?: .43% | | Total Votes: 466 | | Could it be that the 7.94% that think gpl is the be all end all are the

rude | smart mouthed people that post the most to this group? Some of thenegative | things written about gp3 are downright stupid. | |

Olav K. Malmin <[email hidden]> wrote: : First off, Noone has yet tried the finished version of GP3 : yet. Second, I can't really wait for next friday when I shall go home : from work early and directly to the store. You'd hope that _someone_ has or it's going to be really disappointing :-) Actually, it raises a question - who are the play testers for these things? Why aren't they on r.a.s.? Or are they sworn to secrecy. : I really don't get this "gives me more prestige, ego and : r.a.s. credibility". I can't talk for other, but I guess many GPL : addicts here including me is holding this game so high because: For : every sim I bought after GPL i've tried them for a while, and enjoyed : some of them a lot (SCGT, TOCA2 (until I got fed up with the MSFF : non-centering trouble), F1-2000 (specially after some mods)), but : history repeats itself and in the end I drive the Ring in the trusty old : Ferrari again. This "fact" is what I think drives many people here to : say the good old words "It has a lot of good sides, but no GPL". I : can't wait to try a sim that proves history wrong. Indeed - GPL is the game I keep coming back to because there's so much depth and feel to the model. On the other hand GPL is basically too tough for most people - hell it's too tough for me. I'd just like to have a game with GPL's feel that after a year or so of practice I could drive round for half an hour without falling off the track. (Yes, I'm still smarting after a disasterous on-line performance in a league race recently) -- Richard G. Clegg Only the mind is waving Networks and Non-Linear Dynamics Group Dept. of Mathematics, Uni. of York UPDATED WWW: http://manor.york.ac.uk/

Richard G Clegg <[email hidden]> writes:

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> Olav K. Malmin <[email hidden]> wrote: > > : First off, Noone has yet tried the finished version of GP3 > : yet. Second, I can't really wait for next friday when I shall go home > : from work early and directly to the store. > > You'd hope that _someone_ has or it's going to be really disappointing > :-)

That thought has crossed my mind, yes. In fact, I will be pleasantly surprised if it is in the store next friday, not because I don't thrust the commercials telling it is the 28th, but more a lack of faith in the Norwegian PC games distribution system :) -- Olav K. Malmin remove spam when replying

"and people to back them"... exactly. Jan. =---

On Wed, 19 Jul 2000 11:46:04 +0200, "Jan Verschueren" <[email hidden]> wrote: >Whoa... spelling and punctuation alert!! -But that's beside the point. > >IMO, most of the vocal people are looking at Gp3 objectively (or at least at >the little we know about it) and it's the "it's by Crammond, so it's going >to be great"-brigade which has lost perspective and gets on it's high horse. > Here we are again. There's absolutely no problem with GPL people preferring GPL. There's only a problem with GPL people failing to recognise that something THEY don't like might nevertheless be exactly that what is *loved* by the other 99.5% of simracers. And failing to recognise that these 99.5% might not all be dumb-12yearold-arcade-lovers after all. So it's not: "GP3 is crap", but "nice, but I prefer GPL because we al agree that that gives me more prestige, ego and r.a.s. credibility" :-) JoH

"Olav K. Malmin" wrote:

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> > Richard G Clegg <[email hidden]> writes: > > > Olav K. Malmin <[email hidden]> wrote: > > > > : First off, Noone has yet tried the finished version of GP3 > > : yet. Second, I can't really wait for next friday when I shall go home > > : from work early and directly to the store. > > > > You'd hope that _someone_ has or it's going to be really disappointing > > :-) > > That thought has crossed my mind, yes. In fact, I will be pleasantly > surprised if it is in the store next friday, not because I don't > thrust the commercials telling it is the 28th, but more a lack of > faith in the Norwegian PC games distribution system :)

Ah, you've had experience with BJ Electronics as well then ? :-) Beers and cheers (uncle) Goy "Team Mirage" http://www.teammirage.com/ "The Pits" http://www.theuspits.com/ * Spam is for losers who can't get business any other way * "Spamkiller" http://www.spamkiller.com

"Bruce Kennewell" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > (snip) > Here's hoping for N4 and WSC (and to some extend Nascar Heat), if theybomb > we won't see a pure sim, ever again. > (unsnip) > > What rubbish, Jan! > > As long as there are people like Kaemmer, Crammond and the Wests, andpeople

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> to back them, we WILL see a "pure sim" (whatever THAT might be) again. > > -- > Regards, > Bruce Kennewell, > Canberra, Australia. > ---------------------------

Even if we have to write the damn thing ourselves.

"rrevved" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > On Wed, 19 Jul 2000 11:39:21 +0200, "Jan Verschueren"<[email hidden]> wrote: > > >Indeed, people who think High Gear polls are a reference in simracingPLAY

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> >sims. People who turn to RAS for info DRIVE sims. > > Jan, that is pretty harsh, if you ask me. > > BTW, Jan, if you think that -only- the people in RAS 'drive' sims, > you're mistaken. Your comments reflect exactly the attitude that > the original poster mentioned. Nothing personal, but this kind of > attitude isn't exactly helping the cause of sim racing since it > alienates the new users and lurkers from participating here in > the _sim_ newsgroup. > > Again, nothing personal, just an observation. >

Again, nothing personal, and just an observation, Jan neither said nor implied anything of the sort. Go back and read his post again with your logic gear engaged.

Of course ras dosn't represent sim players. Many sim players don't even know it exists. ras represents. . . are you ready for it?. . . That percentage of sim players who are also members of ras. Sheer profundity, none the less a fundamental truth and I've never seen anybody claim otherwise. Please note that each individual member of ras , in turn, only represents themselves.

"Berno" <[email hidden]> > Got GPL, who needs anything else.: 7.94% I voted for that even if I care about GP3 and will be first in line to buy it. It's just another boring HG poll. Lies, damn lies and statistics... -- -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> -- May the Downforce be with you... -- http://www.WeRace.net -- People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world.

"Richard G Clegg" <[email hidden]> wrote > Actually, it raises a question - who are the play testers for these > things? Why aren't they on r.a.s.? Or are they sworn to secrecy. Most of the testing of Crammond software is done in-house or with some very secretive people living in Germany IIRC. It has always been like that it seems. > Indeed - GPL is the game I keep coming back to because there's so much > depth and feel to the model. On the other hand GPL is basically too > tough for most people - hell it's too tough for me. Exactly :). I still love how people will try in anyway to knife r.a.s. citizens in the back for loving GPL. It's just the best racing simulation for the past two years <vbg> -- -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> -- May the Downforce be with you... -- http://www.WeRace.net -- People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world.

"rrevved" <[email hidden]> wrote > >Indeed, people who think High Gear polls are a reference in simracingPLAY > >sims. People who turn to RAS for info DRIVE sims. > > Jan, that is pretty harsh, if you ask me. It's harsh, but true. We are talking about a site who puts (very rare) GPL news in between Dukes of Hazards preview and Rally Masters (stretching the truth but you see my point). Oh remember it's the site who had the idiocy of having a poll on the relevance of a Usenet NG. But hey, many people have egos here and I don't hide the fact. We are elitists. We want the most realistic simulators possible, and any attempt to not make it so is rubbish to our eyes. Elitists we are. GPL is elitist. Will GP3 be elitist? -- -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> -- May the Downforce be with you... -- http://www.WeRace.net -- People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world.

Berno <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:Qsdd5.14776$[email hidden]...

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> So much negative energy towards gp3 in this group made me start to belive > that I was one of very few who were looking forward to this game, yet the > poll at high gear has shown me the truth: > > It'll be great. I'll buy it straight-away!: 61.16% > > I think it'll be good, but I'll await the reviews: 25.97% > > What's all the hype about? This can't be any good.: 3.00% > > I don't like F1 Sims.: 1.50% > > Got GPL, who needs anything else.: 7.94% > > Grand Prix 3?!? Can you eat that?: .43% > > Total Votes: 466 > > Could it be that the 7.94% that think gpl is the be all end all are the

rude > smart mouthed people that post the most to this group? Some of thenegative > things written about gp3 are downright stupid. > I very much agree that RAS is very much GPL orientated but if you ignore (despite how hard it actually is) posts that say things like "No other sim ahs even come close to GPL in 2 years" then you can get on well. Unfortunately hat cuts down the amount of posts quite a lot.

"Bruce Kennewell" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > (snip) > Here's hoping for N4 and WSC (and to some extend Nascar Heat), if theybomb > we won't see a pure sim, ever again. > (unsnip) > > What rubbish, Jan! > > As long as there are people like Kaemmer, Crammond and the Wests, andpeople > to back them, we WILL see a "pure sim" (whatever THAT might be) again. ^^^^^ Right there Bruce...you answered Jan without knowing it. You think Dave K is gonna put out another open-wheel sim on his own, without Sierra's consent? You think now that Hasbro has Crammond locked up for 3 or 4 years, they are gonna let him put out whatever he wants? The West brothers will soon get a taste of corporate pressure if they don't get moving on WSC. dave henrie if these titles tank, no way any big publishing house is gonna gamble on a "sim" sim... for example....Did Janes' finish A-10 Warthog in the Flightsim genre? The F/A 18 will probably be the last of the single quality sims in that area as well. More of the USAF(Need for Speed) type sims will be made. And sure both the Flight and racing sims will get better, but will they limited by failing to over-acheive.(gpl) deh >B

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> -- > Regards, > Bruce Kennewell, > Canberra, Australia. > --------------------------- > > Jan Verschueren <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > >

So much negative energy towards gp3 in this group made me start to belive that I was one of very few who were looking forward to this game, yet the poll at high gear has shown me the truth: It'll be great. I'll buy it straight-away!: 61.16% I think it'll be good, but I'll await the reviews: 25.97% What's all the hype about? This can't be any good.: 3.00% I don't like F1 Sims.: 1.50% Got GPL, who needs anything else.: 7.94% Grand Prix 3?!? Can you eat that?: .43% Total Votes: 466 Could it be that the 7.94% that think gpl is the be all end all are the rude smart mouthed people that post the most to this group? Some of the negative things written about gp3 are downright stupid.

Im a huge gpl fan too, what I cant understand is why I can look at other products objectovely compared to very vocal people here?? Whats up guys? "Loosay2" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > unfortunately, you are probably right, but at least there are sites likeHigh > Gear that are more reflective of the average sim fan, a subset of whichare GPL > fans.

New host name Andy: asmodeus.uio.no Jan. =--- Andy Jones wrote... > Say, bro, has Vege gone belly up since Asgeir turned his back, or have I > just lost contact somehow ? > > Andy > > <snip>

On Thu, 20 Jul 2000 13:42:56 +0200, Goy Larsen <[email hidden]> mangled uncounted electrons thus:

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> >"Olav K. Malmin" wrote: >> >> Err, no. But I talked to a friend of my flatmate yeterday who works at >> Ram&Rom and I asked him if he will have GP3 next friday. The answer : >> Haven't heard anything... > >Same here, just got off the phone with BJ... > >"GP3 ?, I think this has been delayed to some time this fall..." > >"Uhm, no, I just saw the promo boxes when I was on vacation in th UK" > >"Oh, ok then, then it must be in any day now...." > >Yeah, well, thx a bunch

<EG> You have that sort of place in your part of Europe too, huh? Martin D. Pay Thinks, PC World... ^_^

Too bad irony doesn't make a sound when it passes over one's head. I am not about to read every post on the forum to get a well rounded idea of a posters character, I just don't have the time. Sorry. If you want to know what GPLRank is I suggest you follow your own advice and read back through the group or any message by Uwe, it's in his sig. GPLRank is a nice way to rekindle interest in GPL BTW... I suggest you find out what yours is. I hereby permit you to shamelessly brag here if it's better than mine. Just remember, if it's close, I'll be gunning for your ass. ;-) Jan. =--- Berno wrote... > > If you looked through the previous posts you would have noticed I askedwhat

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> the hell gpl rank was as I havent played gpl since the last round of the > australian gpl championship last year. A championship which by the way I > scored 3 2nd places and qualified near the front fairly often, not bad for > somebody who had no time to practice and was very tierd after a hard days > work. > > If racing gpl in an online league till 11pm on a worknight doesnt make me

a > simracer then what the hell does? Your attempt to put me down bysuggesting > I dont have the ability to lap in gpl is exactly the smart arse remark Iwas > refering too and doesnt do a hell of a lot for the general worth of this > newsgroup. > <snip>

You are worthy opponent Jo, but there's some things you seem to overlooking too... Firstly, I never said immersion and accessability are not important, just that, since having experienced GPL, my priorities with reference to racing sims have shifted. I am very concerned commercial pressure will serve to diminish the effort put into what I now consider the make or break point of a racing sim. I fear Geoff is lost to the cause already. Secondly, I have grave doubts about both Geoff's motive and ability to produce GP3, which I'm positive are not entirely unfounded. If he'd released something in between (like the Win95 and 3D patches for ICR2) I might have been more confident, but as it is his last game was produced on an obselete platform, doesn't that worry you at all?? You speak of improvements in AI, atmosphere, etc... I'll grant you that, over GP2. But apart from real changing weather I haven't read anything I haven't seen in other games yet. You've been drinking too many "Duvels" to Geoff's health my friend. ;-) I never said "don't buy GP3", I said "don't buy GP3 just because it's by Crammond". I have pointed out my concerns towards the title and urged people to wait until some of us had a chance to play and comment on it. Like we're fond of saying over here: if you want to dissuade me from this point of view, you're going to have to get up earlier. Jan. =--- Jo Helsen wrote...

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> <snip> > Jan, what you keep failing to see is that there > is more involved than the physics alone. You always > concentrate on the *driving*sim. But a *racing* sim > needs AI, influence of weather, atmosphere etc.. too. > Even with the limited info that we have now, it looks > like GP3 will make guaranteed progress in those > departments. But no, the slightest doubt about the > smallest issue of the drivingmodel seems enough for > you to discard those aspects as unimportant details. > That goes just a *little* bit too far for my taste... > > JoH

On Wed, 19 Jul 2000 14:49:32 -0500, rrevved <[email hidden]> thus spoke: >Hey Mike! Well, it was an omen or something. When the sims began >to fade away, my FLCS did the same.. :) > >Actually, I am doing a little racing on my PC and playing a >lot of fighting games on my Dreamcast (love it)! That explains why you don't post in the flight-sim newsgroup anymore. Dreamcast? You become an arcade weenie Ed? Say it ain't so. :-) -- Nos

On Wed, 19 Jul 2000 18:25:24 +1000, "Berno" <[email hidden]> wrote:

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>So much negative energy towards gp3 in this group made me start to belive >that I was one of very few who were looking forward to this game, yet the >poll at high gear has shown me the truth: > >It'll be great. I'll buy it straight-away!: 61.16% > >I think it'll be good, but I'll await the reviews: 25.97% > >What's all the hype about? This can't be any good.: 3.00% > >I don't like F1 Sims.: 1.50% > >Got GPL, who needs anything else.: 7.94% > >Grand Prix 3?!? Can you eat that?: .43% > >Total Votes: 466 > >Could it be that the 7.94% that think gpl is the be all end all are the rude >smart mouthed people that post the most to this group? Some of the negative >things written about gp3 are downright stupid. >

I really don't get it. The figures you quote from High Gear indicate that most sim racers are going to get into GP3, those figures are equally relevant here. The difference between clicking on a "Yeah I want it now button" once and discussing vapourware ad-nausum is huge. We have very little to discuss other than a couple of movies, some screen shots (most of which have been around for ages) and a planned release date. You may find these topic engrossing but I suspect most other people have better things to do (no offence intended!). If you do a search with Deja I am sure you will find plenty of discussion on carshaps, weather, networking, computer requirements, AI, release dates, warez versions, Geoff Crammond etc. Once these topics have been dealt with 5 times people tend to lose interest a little. Given the previous history of this group you may wish you have never asked this question once GP3 is released. One day you will D/L your newsgroups and think "why the hell am I getting 1500 posts from a group that averages 300?" Simple, people will have something to discuss. Sure, there are some real GPL fanatics in here but that's fine, they have every right to be passionate about the sim as do you for GP3, these things cycle. I recall similar post deriding the amount of N2 traffic not so long ago..... Sit tight, your day in the sun will come! Regards, Anthony Bulloch

On Wed, 19 Jul 2000 05:23:18 -0400, "Robert Platts" <[email hidden]> wrote: >GPL won't hold a candle to WSC when it is released >Do you have this weeks winning lotto numbers as well?!?! AB

(snip) Here's hoping for N4 and WSC (and to some extend Nascar Heat), if they bomb we won't see a pure sim, ever again. (unsnip) What rubbish, Jan! As long as there are people like Kaemmer, Crammond and the Wests, and people to back them, we WILL see a "pure sim" (whatever THAT might be) again. -- Regards, Bruce Kennewell, Canberra, Australia. --------------------------- Jan Verschueren <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

Goy Larsen <[email hidden]> writes:

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> "Olav K. Malmin" wrote: > > > > Richard G Clegg <[email hidden]> writes: > > > > > Olav K. Malmin <[email hidden]> wrote: > > > > > > : First off, Noone has yet tried the finished version of GP3 > > > : yet. Second, I can't really wait for next friday when I shall go home > > > : from work early and directly to the store. > > > > > > You'd hope that _someone_ has or it's going to be really disappointing > > > :-) > > > > That thought has crossed my mind, yes. In fact, I will be pleasantly > > surprised if it is in the store next friday, not because I don't > > thrust the commercials telling it is the 28th, but more a lack of > > faith in the Norwegian PC games distribution system :) > > Ah, you've had experience with BJ Electronics as well then ? :-)

Err, no. But I talked to a friend of my flatmate yeterday who works at Ram&Rom and I asked him if he will have GP3 next friday. The answer : Haven't heard anything... -- Olav K. Malmin remove spam when replying

On Wed, 19 Jul 2000 22:47:12 -0500, rrevved <[email hidden]> thus spoke: >hehe. I'm hooked on my Dreamcast. I've always liked >fightin' games, and now I am in arcade fighter heaven! > I've got MK4 for the PC. I expect it's crap compared to what your playing on that Dreamcast. -- Nos

On Wed, 19 Jul 2000 19:23:07 +0200, "Jan Verschueren" <[email hidden]> wrote:

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>Olav K. Malmin wrote... >> I'm probably missing the argument here, but what the heck... > >Not at all Olav, you hit the nail right on the head in fact. All the games >you mentioned (and which David mentions in another part of the thread) are >very good, enjoyable racing racing games. They did not, however, advance the >genre (much), which ultimately detracts from their long term appeal. Either >GPL was way ahead of it's time (not so, IMO) or, like I said, having the >technically most advanced game doesn't shift enough copies (it's not an >argument in a sale), so no-one's very keen on risking a dollop of money on >developing one. > >Jan.

Jan, what you keep failing to see is that there is more involved than the physics alone. You always concentrate on the *driving*sim. But a *racing*sim needs AI, influence of weather, atmosphere etc.. too. Even with the limited info that we have now, it looks like GP3 will make guaranteed progress in those departments. But no, the slightest doubt about the smallest issue of the drivingmodel seems enough for you to discard those aspects as unimportant details. That goes just a *little* bit too far for my taste... JoH

"Olav K. Malmin" wrote: > > Err, no. But I talked to a friend of my flatmate yeterday who works at > Ram&Rom and I asked him if he will have GP3 next friday. The answer : > Haven't heard anything... Same here, just got off the phone with BJ... "GP3 ?, I think this has been delayed to some time this fall..." "Uhm, no, I just saw the promo boxes when I was on vacation in th UK" "Oh, ok then, then it must be in any day now...." Yeah, well, thx a bunch Beers and cheers (uncle) Goy "Team Mirage" http://www.teammirage.com/ "The Pits" http://www.theuspits.com/ * Spam is for losers who can't get business any other way * "Spamkiller" http://www.spamkiller.com

Goy Larsen <[email hidden]> writes:

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> "Olav K. Malmin" wrote: > > > > Err, no. But I talked to a friend of my flatmate yeterday who works at > > Ram&Rom and I asked him if he will have GP3 next friday. The answer : > > Haven't heard anything... > > Same here, just got off the phone with BJ... > > "GP3 ?, I think this has been delayed to some time this fall..." > > "Uhm, no, I just saw the promo boxes when I was on vacation in th UK" > > "Oh, ok then, then it must be in any day now...." > > Yeah, well, thx a bunch >

Well, in 8 days (say I will be in the store at 16.00 next friday, we have cleared the 200 hour mark :) we will find out. What sure is that there will be one sim-head there in the store asking, not taking No as a answer. -- Olav K. Malmin remove spam when replying

On Wed, 19 Jul 2000 22:47:12 -0500, rrevved I've got MK4 for the PC. I expect it's ***compared to what your playing on that Dreamcast. -- Nos

New host name Andy: asmodeus.uio.no Jan. =---

"Olav K. Malmin" wrote: > > Well, in 8 days (say I will be in the store at 16.00 next friday, we > have cleared the 200 hour mark :) we will find out. What sure is that > there will be one sim-head there in the store asking, not taking No as a > answer. No need to, I just had a call back from BJ, they're expecting the GP3 some time next week, which means that I should be selling them by Friday, maybe I'll get them a day or two early if this is a world wide release date and they want every shop to be ready for it....:-) I'm allowed to hope aren't I, after all, BJ is just 30 mins from here..... ? Beers and cheers (uncle) Goy "Team Mirage" http://www.teammirage.com/ "The Pits" http://www.theuspits.com/ * Spam is for losers who can't get business any other way * "Spamkiller" http://www.spamkiller.com

Goy Larsen <[email hidden]> writes:

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> "Olav K. Malmin" wrote: > > > > Well, in 8 days (say I will be in the store at 16.00 next friday, we > > have cleared the 200 hour mark :) we will find out. What sure is that > > there will be one sim-head there in the store asking, not taking No as a > > answer. > > No need to, I just had a call back from BJ, they're expecting the GP3 > some time next week, which means that I should be selling them by > Friday, maybe I'll get them a day or two early if this is a world wide > release date and they want every shop to be ready for it....:-) > > I'm allowed to hope aren't I, after all, BJ is just 30 mins from > here..... ?

Great. Now, what GP3 releases in Norway has to do with the name of the topic is another matter :) -- Olav K. Malmin remove spam when replying

If you looked through the previous posts you would have noticed I asked what the hell gpl rank was as I havent played gpl since the last round of the australian gpl championship last year. A championship which by the way I scored 3 2nd places and qualified near the front fairly often, not bad for somebody who had no time to practice and was very tierd after a hard days work. If racing gpl in an online league till 11pm on a worknight doesnt make me a simracer then what the hell does? Your attempt to put me down by suggesting I dont have the ability to lap in gpl is exactly the smart arse remark I was refering too and doesnt do a hell of a lot for the general worth of this newsgroup. "Jan Verschueren" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > Indeed, people who think High Gear polls are a reference in simracing PLAY > sims. People who turn to RAS for info DRIVE sims. Please refrain fromusing > "High Gear poll" and "truth" in the same sentence, BTW. > > Berno... Berno... <searches GPLRank> -Nope, not there. You're very luckyyou > didn't call yourself a simracer. ;-) > > For the record, there is also good reason for some of the negativecomments

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> levelled at GP3. I, personally, expected a lot more from the next Geoff > Crammond sim than GP3 looks set to deliver, even if force feedback and > TCP/IP support were included (now you don't think the game getting bashed > here had anything to do with that, now do you?). > > Jan./just perpetuating the stereotype. > =--- > Berno wrote... > > So much negative energy towards gp3 in this group > > made me start to belive that I was one of very few > > who were looking forward to this game, yet the > > poll at high gear has shown me the truth: > > > > <snip> > >

Say, bro, has Vege gone belly up since Asgeir turned his back, or have I just lost contact somehow ? Andy m.seery <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:GBed5.180$[email hidden]...

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> I hope so Rob as well but being objective, it's pure speculation at this > time. > > MS > "Robert Platts" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > GPL won't hold a candle to WSC when it is released > > > > > > > > Robert > > > > > > "Mike Blackmore" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:[email hidden]... > > > Absolutely agree, > > > > > > I love GPL but I also believe in terms of accessabilty it is deeply > > > flawed (beta tester Alison Hine admits as much) as a 'game' I expect > > > to enjoy GP3 more as a 'sim' I'll tell you on the 28th. > > > > > > The fact is as a father of a 3 year old and someone renovating an 18th > > > centuary cottage I just cannot make enougth time to really enjoy GPL > > > but I still can enjoy GP2 and F1 2000. The have accessability. > > > > > > Regards Mike > > > > > > > > > On Wed, 19 Jul 2000 18:25:24 +1000, "Berno" <[email hidden]> wrote: > > > > > > >So much negative energy towards gp3 in this group made me start to > belive > > > >that I was one of very few who were looking forward to this game, yet > the > > > >poll at high gear has shown me the truth: > > > > > > > >It'll be great. I'll buy it straight-away!: 61.16% > > > > > > > >I think it'll be good, but I'll await the reviews: 25.97% > > > > > > > >What's all the hype about? This can't be any good.: 3.00% > > > > > > > >I don't like F1 Sims.: 1.50% > > > > > > > >Got GPL, who needs anything else.: 7.94% > > > > > > > >Grand Prix 3?!? Can you eat that?: .43% > > > > > > > >Total Votes: 466 > > > > > > > >Could it be that the 7.94% that think gpl is the be all end all are

the

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> > rude > > > >smart mouthed people that post the most to this group? Some of the > > negative > > > >things written about gp3 are downright stupid. > > > > > > > > > > > > >

Too blatant Dave... not gonna work. Jan. =--- David G Fisher wrote... > I think HG is a great site. > > David G Fisher > <snip>

I think HG is a great site. David G Fisher "ymenard" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:rPld5.24$[email hidden]...

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> > "rrevved" <[email hidden]> wrote > > >Indeed, people who think High Gear polls are a reference in simracing > PLAY > > >sims. People who turn to RAS for info DRIVE sims. > > > > Jan, that is pretty harsh, if you ask me. > > > It's harsh, but true. We are talking about a site who puts (very rare)

GPL > news in between Dukes of Hazards preview and Rally Masters (stretching the > truth but you see my point). Oh remember it's the site who had the idiocy > of having a poll on the relevance of a Usenet NG. But hey, many peoplehave > egos here and I don't hide the fact. We are elitists. We want the most > realistic simulators possible, and any attempt to not make it so isrubbish

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> to our eyes. > > Elitists we are. GPL is elitist. Will GP3 be elitist? > > > -- > -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> > -- May the Downforce be with you... > -- http://www.WeRace.net > -- People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't

realise > how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world. > > >

On Fri, 21 Jul 2000 06:16:49 GMT, "David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote: >I think HG is a great site. David, what the hell?!? We agree on something! What's next? We're becoming friends? Andre > >David G Fisher

"David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote > I think HG is a great site. Of course, it's a great site. I won't hide the fact ;) -- -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> -- May the Downforce be with you... -- http://www.WeRace.net -- People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world.

Too blatant Dave... not gonna work. Jan. =---

Just a flippant reply rrevved, maybe too farfetched. Don't worry about it ;-) I got the impression from Jo's message he found my "physics are the key to a racing sim" viewpoint intimidating... you both bascally agreed with his post (on another level, but that's never stopped me from excercising my warped sense of hunour before), so I suggested you seek solace with eachother for the mental scars I inflicted on you. Missed the target by a mile though... bad joke, I apologise. Jan./I have always BEEN an annoying individual BTW. <g> =--- rrevved wrote...

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> <snip> > Jan, I'm not sure what you are talking about. > Loosay and I -certainly- weren't talking about > you. We were talking about physics vs. other > factors in racing sims. > > You have turned into quite an annoying individual, > recently, IMO.

Would have been funnier if you'd wised up to the intention earlier... I love having mock fights on newsgroups. ;-) Jan. =--- rrevved wrote... > <snip>

rrevved <[email hidden]> wrote:

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>On Sun, 23 Jul 2000 15:25:44 +0200, "Jan Verschueren" <[email hidden]> wrote: > >>Why don't you all hug eachoter for comfort too... sheeesh!! >> > >Huh? > >>The great evil Jan makes you feel bad, does he? >> >>Jan. ;-) > >Jan, I'm not sure what you are talking about. Loosay and I >-certainly- weren't talking about you. We were talking about >physics vs. other factors in racing sims. > >You have turned into quite an annoying individual, recently, IMO.

No he hasn't. I've started to love him more and more :-) JoH ------- The best way to accelerate a Mac is 9.81 m/s2 -------- --------------------------------------------------------------

Why don't you all hug eachoter for comfort too... sheeesh!! The great evil Jan makes you feel bad, does he? Jan. ;-) =--- rrevved wrote...

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> Loosay2 wrote: > >><snip> > >great observation, I totally agree. > > Me too. Perfection in physics is a very important part of the equation, > but the factors that he mentioned are important as well in a racing sim. > > The name of this newsgroup is rec.autos.simulators. I wish it was > named rec.autos.racing-simulators. >

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>Jan, what you keep failing to see is that there is more involved than >the physics alone. You always concentrate on the *driving*sim. But a >*racing*sim needs AI, influence of weather, atmosphere etc.. too. Even >with the limited info that we have now, it looks like GP3 will make >guaranteed progress in those departments. But no, the slightest doubt >about the smallest issue of the drivingmodel seems enough for you to >discard those aspects as unimportant details. That goes just a >*little* bit too far for my taste... > >JoH > > > > > >

great observation, I totally agree.

I view sims in terms of what I find important. As long as you're aware of that you can still get usefull info from my posts. Deal with it, as I'm not about to change my modus operandi. Besides, if you want to critisize me, be a little more creative than adding a me too comment to someone else's post. Jan. =--- Loosay2 wrote... > > <snip> > great observation, I totally agree.

great observation, I totally agree.

In article <[email hidden]>, Jo Helsen <[email hidden]> writes

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>On Wed, 19 Jul 2000 19:23:07 +0200, "Jan Verschueren" ><[email hidden]> wrote: > >>Olav K. Malmin wrote... > >>> I'm probably missing the argument here, but what the heck... >> >>Not at all Olav, you hit the nail right on the head in fact. All the games >>you mentioned (and which David mentions in another part of the thread) are >>very good, enjoyable racing racing games. They did not, however, advance >the >>genre (much), which ultimately detracts from their long term appeal. Either >>GPL was way ahead of it's time (not so, IMO) or, like I said, having the >>technically most advanced game doesn't shift enough copies (it's not an >>argument in a sale), so no-one's very keen on risking a dollop of money on >>developing one. >> >>Jan. > >Jan, what you keep failing to see is that there is more involved than >the physics alone. You always concentrate on the *driving*sim. But a >*racing*sim needs AI, influence of weather, atmosphere etc.. too. Even >with the limited info that we have now, it looks like GP3 will make >guaranteed progress in those departments. But no, the slightest doubt >about the smallest issue of the drivingmodel seems enough for you to >discard those aspects as unimportant details. That goes just a >*little* bit too far for my taste... >

Yes, but that is the most important part. I don't know about others, but I spend 99% of my time on any driving sim actually either driving the thing (racing or testing) or in the garage trying to get a decent setup. All the other extras are an improvement without a doubt, but in the end how it feels when driving is still the most essential component. -- Peter Ives - (AKA Ivington) No person's opinions can be said to be more correct than another's, because each is the sole judge of his or her own experience.

On Tue, 25 Jul 2000 12:11:14 +0200, "Jan Verschueren" <[email hidden]> mangled uncounted electrons thus:

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>From the two page GP3 advert in the August issue of PC Zone. > ><quote> >Coming 28th July, > >Weather Effects, Force Feedback, >Unprecedented Realism. > >Pre-order your copy now! ></quote> > >If what you say is true, and MPS-Hasbro doesn't want to sucker the >*hardcore* crowd into buying this game, what's the "unprecedented realism" >comment doing in there?

<grin> It's called hype. And I doubt it was written by GC. But the evils of marketing men are a whole 'nother topic... ^_- Martin D. Pay Fully believes that GP3 will provide what *he* wants in a game/sim - but also accepts that it may not for others

<exaggeration> No, just the ball, the bat is part of the user interface. </exaggeration> Jan. ;-) =--- rrevved wrote... > <snip> > So a baseball game simulator is only about the bat and ball? >

Jo Helsen wrote... > > <snip> > Now Jan, I didn't expect you to be THAT naive.:-) > Please, this is marketing talk. Plus the weather > effects contribute to that claim also. And > remember: always targeted at the TYPICAL customer. Just highlighting the lack in terminology in this respect. If the typical customer is led to believe GP3 is "simulation", then the typical CEO of a publisher will think it is and I can kiss any future releases tailored to my taste goodbye. I have to act, shout, kick, whatever to prevent true simulation from dying an early death because the first game(s) didn't sell well. > > <snip> > Sigh... The typical r.a.s. fanatic is far far far more critical when > it comes to car behaviour than even a "serious" reviewer. These same reviewers seem to have no problem differentiating between hardcore and general flightsims, yet when it comes to driving simulations based on real cars/racing series sweep both types of games and potential buyers under the same carpet. They will praise things like Flight Unlimited to death while saying "it's more physics than fun" about CPR. > > <snip> > Yep: "as far as I'm concerned". You admit it yourself!!! > DIfferent people, different ideas. Horses for courses, I agree, but across the board. We need some terminology to clearly determine what's what and I'm laying claim on the term simulation for my end of the market. > > <snip> > It was always like that as far as I'm concerned. Why > did he always provide those helpfunctions and keyboard > support?? A nod to the "casual gamesplayer", I thought, to make sure his games sold well, so he could continue to improve them. Doh! ;-( > And I suspect GP2 only improved carhandling a lot > basically because even a casual gamer would recognise > that F1GP was *too* far off reality. The number of > people who can point out the flaws in GP2 is > considerably smaller. In light of recent events I have to agree with you there. I used to believe he had *higher* motives. Had you said this before GPL, I would have even vigorously defended Geoff, strange as that may seem to you. > Certainly the number of people who really CARE about it > that much. If you don't *care* you deserve to get ripped off by an endless stream of eyecandy/season/fluff updates. Anyone who is any way serious about driving simulated race cars as a hobby *cares* after he/she reaches a certain level. There is nothing more frustating than taking a corner like you've done hundreds of times before and flying off for no apparent reason whatsoever every now and again. It's even more frustrating than flying off for the umpteenth time because you weren't smooth enough on turn-in. > Therefore: not much need to improve even further. Full tumble added, > yes; Because that was also apparent to absolutely everyone, regardless > of knowledge of racecars. Even the most casual of F1 watchers must notice some of the inaccuracies? (-putting it mildly <g>) > I'm not arguing pro or contra any approach. Just that GC > might have this slightly different idea and thus was not > even *planning* or pretending that the hardcore crowd > would get what it wants. Like I said, I was betrayed, maybe by my own beliefs and expectations, but betrayed nonetheless. Jan. =---

<[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> On Tue, 25 Jul 2000 09:10:06 GMT, [email hidden] (Jo Helsen) > thus spoke: > > > >GP3 is a great example of the issue at hand. The hardcore r.a.s. crowd > >simply makes the totally wrong assumption that Geoff Crammond sees > >THEM as the target crowd. I'm pretty sure that this is not the case. > >99% of the sim-buying public is perfectly happy with the carbehaviour > >in GP2. So GC doesn't think it needs massive improvement over GP2 > >(like GP2 was over F1GP) and concentrates on other issues. > > > >Therefore, GP3 will deliver just about what the 99% needs to reach > >their suspension of disbelief. > > > >JoH > > I bet the majority of the buyers will never have even seen GP2. > Therefore, they are not even qualified to say what is wrong with GP3 > and will be ignorant to it's shortcomings. They will buy it just > because it has pretty F1 cars on the box. > --

And I will bet you are wrong. 170,000 pre-orders in the UK don't come from a pretty box. GP2 was a million-seller, and there are a lot of people out there who know what they got with GP2, they know what to expect from GP3, and it sounds like they are going to get it, and be happy. I will be. Stephen

From the two page GP3 advert in the August issue of PC Zone. <quote> Coming 28th July, Weather Effects, Force Feedback, Unprecedented Realism. Pre-order your copy now! </quote> If what you say is true, and MPS-Hasbro doesn't want to sucker the *hardcore* crowd into buying this game, what's the "unprecedented realism" comment doing in there? Add to that the (mis)use of the word "simulation" by both MPS-Hasbro marketing and the gaming press and it becomes *our business*. -If only to point out the standards for what is to be designated a "simulation" were significantly raised in the 4 years since GP2. And don't start the "atmosphere is part of the simulation"-argument again. Simulation is a technical/mechanical term as far as I'm concerned and therefore only applicable to the mechanics/physics of a game. -What good is being able to agonise over tyre choice when the physics are so damn forgiving you can easily piss all over the AI regardless of what you mount on the rims? (-gross generalisation, I know, but never let the facts get in the way of a good rant, right? ;-))) Granted, I made the mistake of believing Geoff was in the business of making racing simulations. To find he's actually in the business of making racing games hurt, a lot!! Jan. =--- Jo Helsen wrote...

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> <snip> > GP3 is a great example of the issue at hand. The hardcore > r.a.s. crowd simply makes the totally wrong assumption > that Geoff Crammond sees THEM as the target crowd. > I'm pretty sure that this is not the case. 99% of the > sim-buying public is perfectly happy with the carbehaviour > in GP2. So GC doesn't think it needs massive improvement > over GP2 (like GP2 was over F1GP) and concentrates on > other issues. > > Therefore, GP3 will deliver just about what the 99% > needs to reach their suspension of disbelief. > > JoH

On Tue, 25 Jul 2000 09:10:06 GMT, [email hidden] (Jo Helsen) thus spoke:

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>GP3 is a great example of the issue at hand. The hardcore r.a.s. crowd >simply makes the totally wrong assumption that Geoff Crammond sees >THEM as the target crowd. I'm pretty sure that this is not the case. >99% of the sim-buying public is perfectly happy with the carbehaviour >in GP2. So GC doesn't think it needs massive improvement over GP2 >(like GP2 was over F1GP) and concentrates on other issues. > >Therefore, GP3 will deliver just about what the 99% needs to reach >their suspension of disbelief. > >JoH

I bet the majority of the buyers will never have even seen GP2. Therefore, they are not even qualified to say what is wrong with GP3 and will be ignorant to it's shortcomings. They will buy it just because it has pretty F1 cars on the box. -- Nos

On Mon, 24 Jul 2000 15:53:25 +0100, Peter Ives <[email hidden]> wrote:

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>In article <[email hidden]>, Jo Helsen ><[email hidden]> writes >>Jan, what you keep failing to see is that there is more involved than >>the physics alone. You always concentrate on the *driving*sim. But a >>*racing*sim needs AI, influence of weather, atmosphere etc.. too. Even >>with the limited info that we have now, it looks like GP3 will make >>guaranteed progress in those departments. But no, the slightest doubt >>about the smallest issue of the drivingmodel seems enough for you to >>discard those aspects as unimportant details. That goes just a >>*little* bit too far for my taste... >> > >Yes, but that is the most important part. I don't know about others, >but I spend 99% of my time on any driving sim actually either driving >the thing (racing or testing) or in the garage trying to get a decent >setup. All the other extras are an improvement without a doubt, but in >the end how it feels when driving is still the most essential component. >-- >Peter Ives - (AKA Ivington)

GP3 is a great example of the issue at hand. The hardcore r.a.s. crowd simply makes the totally wrong assumption that Geoff Crammond sees THEM as the target crowd. I'm pretty sure that this is not the case. 99% of the sim-buying public is perfectly happy with the carbehaviour in GP2. So GC doesn't think it needs massive improvement over GP2 (like GP2 was over F1GP) and concentrates on other issues. Therefore, GP3 will deliver just about what the 99% needs to reach their suspension of disbelief. JoH

thus spoke: I bet the majority of the buyers will never have even seen GP2. Therefore, they are not even qualified to say what is wrong with GP3 and will be ignorant to it's shortcomings. They will buy it just because it has pretty F1 cars on the box. -- Nos

On Tue, 25 Jul 2000 12:11:14 +0200, "Jan Verschueren" <[email hidden]> wrote:

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>From the two page GP3 advert in the August issue of PC Zone. > ><quote> >Coming 28th July, > >Weather Effects, Force Feedback, >Unprecedented Realism. > >Pre-order your copy now! ></quote> > >If what you say is true, and MPS-Hasbro doesn't want to sucker the >*hardcore* crowd into buying this game, what's the "unprecedented realism" >comment doing in there?

Now Jan, I didn't expect you to be THAT naive. :-) Please, this is marketing talk. Plus the weather effects contribute to that claim also. And remember: always targeted at the TYPICAL customer. >Add to that the (mis)use of the word "simulation" by both MPS-Hasbro >marketing and the gaming press and it becomes *our business*. Sigh... The typical r.a.s. fanatic is far far far more critical when it comes to car behaviour than even a "serious" reviewer. >-If only to >point out the standards for what is to be designated a "simulation" were >significantly raised in the 4 years since GP2. > >And don't start the "atmosphere is part of the simulation"-argument again. >Simulation is a technical/mechanical term as far as I'm concerned Yep: "as far as I'm concerned". You admit it yourself!!! DIfferent people, different ideas.

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> and >therefore only applicable to the mechanics/physics of a game. -What good is >being able to agonise over tyre choice when the physics are so damn >forgiving you can easily piss all over the AI regardless of what you mount >on the rims? (-gross generalisation, I know, but never let the facts get in >the way of a good rant, right? ;-))) > >Granted, I made the mistake of believing Geoff was in the business of making >racing simulations. To find he's actually in the business of making racing >games hurt, a lot!!

It was always like that as far as I'm concerned. Why did he always provide those helpfunctions and keyboard support?? And I suspect GP2 only improved carhandling a lot basically because even a casual gamer would recognise that F1GP was *too* far off reality. The number of people who can point out the flaws in GP2 is considerably smaller. Certainly the number of people who really CARE about it that much. Therefore: not much need to improve even further. Full tumble added, yes; Because that was also apparent to absolutely everyone, regardless of knowledge of racecars. I'm not arguing pro or contra any approach. Just that GC might have this slightly different idea and thus was not even *planning* or pretending that the hardcore crowd would get what it wants. JoH

On Tue, 25 Jul 2000 07:00:35 -0500, rrevved <[email hidden]> wrote:

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>On Tue, 25 Jul 2000 13:44:48 +0200, "Stephen Ferguson" <[email hidden]> wrote: > >>> I bet the majority of the buyers will never have even seen GP2. >>> Therefore, they are not even qualified to say what is wrong with GP3 >>> and will be ignorant to it's shortcomings. They will buy it just >>> because it has pretty F1 cars on the box. >>> -- >> >>And I will bet you are wrong. 170,000 pre-orders in the UK don't come from >>a pretty box. GP2 was a million-seller, and there are a lot of people out >>there who know what they got with GP2, they know what to expect from GP3, >>and it sounds like they are going to get it, and be happy. I will be. > >Me2 ! >

Me3! JoH

In article <[email hidden]>, Jo Helsen <[email hidden]> writes

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>On Mon, 24 Jul 2000 15:53:25 +0100, Peter Ives ><[email hidden]> wrote: > >>In article <[email hidden]>, Jo Helsen >><[email hidden]> writes > >>>Jan, what you keep failing to see is that there is more involved than >>>the physics alone. You always concentrate on the *driving*sim. But a >>>*racing*sim needs AI, influence of weather, atmosphere etc.. too. Even >>>with the limited info that we have now, it looks like GP3 will make >>>guaranteed progress in those departments. But no, the slightest doubt >>>about the smallest issue of the drivingmodel seems enough for you to >>>discard those aspects as unimportant details. That goes just a >>>*little* bit too far for my taste... >>> >> >>Yes, but that is the most important part. I don't know about others, >>but I spend 99% of my time on any driving sim actually either driving >>the thing (racing or testing) or in the garage trying to get a decent >>setup. All the other extras are an improvement without a doubt, but in >>the end how it feels when driving is still the most essential component. >>-- >>Peter Ives - (AKA Ivington) > >GP3 is a great example of the issue at hand. The hardcore r.a.s. crowd >simply makes the totally wrong assumption that Geoff Crammond sees >THEM as the target crowd. I'm pretty sure that this is not the case. >99% of the sim-buying public is perfectly happy with the carbehaviour >in GP2. So GC doesn't think it needs massive improvement over GP2 >(like GP2 was over F1GP) and concentrates on other issues. > >Therefore, GP3 will deliver just about what the 99% needs to reach >their suspension of disbelief. > >JoH

Well I can only speak for myself, unfortunately and I am not aware of what GC or the other 99% of the public are thinking. You are obviously more prescient than I am. :) You are probably right, of course, and good for them if they are all joyously happy with the sim. However, the driving model for me is still the most important part. This does not mean that I will not be buying GP3 though. It does appear that the weather affects may just about tip the balance in favour of me buying it. I have not tried the warez version and will not be rushing out to purchase GP3 on the 28th. I will bide my time to see what others have to say once they have had the opportunity to play the official full version. :) -- Peter Ives - (AKA Ivington) No person's opinions can be said to be more correct than another's, because each is the sole judge of his or her own experience.

Pretty good stuff, Jan! I could stand to read about anything in this NG on our "hobby" (mania, addiction, avocation, etc.) as long as the writer can make me laugh! :-))) Glen Priest PS. Now there HAVE been times you have made me angry, but maybe that was one of those make-believe, rattle someone's chain rants, huh? * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet's Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet - Free!