Re: Noonan deserves better than this BS

Eh? -- that sounds like 'educated stuff' synowhatsthat? ;-) Dan Leeeeaaaach Kevin Gavitt <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:aHkd5.326$[email hidden]... > > "Dan Leach" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:nUjd5.166$[email hidden]... > > I thouroughly agree > > And I too, good sir. Let noone around here make unwaranted cracks aboutyour > last name. > > And if they do I'll give them an lecture about synonyms. That'll showthem. > > > >

Actually, I've raced against Larry in a couple of pickup races... Garret > Can this be said for LH or DN? I never see evidence that they > participate. Ever in VROC? Listed on GPLRank? >

Seconded. Jan./"dishonourable sponges".... that's a keeper! ;-) =--- Randy Riggs wrote... > I have to say, <Snip>

good post Randy MS

I have to say, I'm completely blown away with all the these people on RAS with the nerve to question DN's motives and be so rude as to demand an explanation. Damndest display of dishourable sponges I think I've ever had the displeasure of witnessing. About the same as getting peeved at one of your friends for asking for some help with the gas money after giving you a ride. You may just owe him alot more than he's asking for. Unless DN is under some covert contract from someone with very deep pockets, he will *never* be appropriately compensated for the work he has done for all of the GPL community, not even close. Have any of you who have questioned DN ever hired a programmer -- they don't come cheap. Don't you wonder why they do it? Why did Larry Holbert write VROC? I never see or hear about them being active racers, why would they bother? For those of you that don't know: It's a hell of a lot of work to produce these things. Instead of dicking around with a track or utility for us they could be on the clock making money for themseleves. I'm very curious and I'd absolutely love for an opportunity to buy either of them pints all night, f#*@#ng least I could do -- I'm sure there must be some interesting stories there. The motives of some of the people who have made great contributions to GPL are more obvious. It seems to me the GPLEA guys -- and all the others I can think of at the moment -- do it because they love GPL. Can this be said for LH or DN? I never see evidence that they participate. Ever in VROC? Listed on GPLRank? I don't understand how you people cannot help but hold a genuine appreciation for each and every one of the people who have contributed to the GPL community. That BS with the French site is pathetic, it has nothing to do with legalities -- it was just plain un-cool to do that. We all owe DN better. I've never met him, but DN is a very good friend of mine. Cut him some slack, he sure as hell has been good to you. Randy

Randy Riggs <[email hidden]> wrote: : I have to say, I'm completely blown away with all the these people on : RAS with the nerve to question DN's motives and be so rude as to : demand an explanation. I think it's rude to demand an explanation but it's fair enough to ask for one. : Damndest display of dishourable sponges I think : I've ever had the displeasure of witnessing. About the same as getting : peeved at one of your friends for asking for some help with the gas : money after giving you a ride. Hmm... I think it's like getting peeved at one of your friends for asking for some help with the gas money when you never do and neither do your other friends. Sorry, I just believe in the free software ideal. While Dave has a perfect right to charge for what he does I'd prefer the precedent not to be set for user-done add-ons to games. (And for the record I'm paid in a job where programming is one of my main duties but try to give my code away freely wherever this is not limited by my terms of employment). Still, we now return you to your scheduled display of "Sierra and Microsoft do it so it must be moral"... -- Richard G. Clegg Only the mind is waving Networks and Non-Linear Dynamics Group Dept. of Mathematics, Uni. of York UPDATED WWW: http://manor.york.ac.uk/

"Dan Leach" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:nUjd5.166$[email hidden]... > I thouroughly agree And I too, good sir. Let noone around here make unwaranted cracks about your last name. And if they do I'll give them an lecture about synonyms. That'll show them.

I thouroughly agree Randy Riggs <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> I have to say, I'm completely blown away with all the these people on > RAS with the nerve to question DN's motives and be so rude as to > demand an explanation. Damndest display of dishourable sponges I think > I've ever had the displeasure of witnessing. About the same as getting > peeved at one of your friends for asking for some help with the gas > money after giving you a ride. You may just owe him alot more than > he's asking for. > > Unless DN is under some covert contract from someone with very deep > pockets, he will *never* be appropriately compensated for the work he > has done for all of the GPL community, not even close. Have any of you > who have questioned DN ever hired a programmer -- they don't come > cheap. > > Don't you wonder why they do it? Why did Larry Holbert write VROC? I > never see or hear about them being active racers, why would they > bother? For those of you that don't know: It's a hell of a lot of work > to produce these things. Instead of dicking around with a track or > utility for us they could be on the clock making money for > themseleves. I'm very curious and I'd absolutely love for an > opportunity to buy either of them pints all night, f#*@#ng least I > could do -- I'm sure there must be some interesting stories there. > > The motives of some of the people who have made great contributions to > GPL are more obvious. It seems to me the GPLEA guys -- and all the > others I can think of at the moment -- do it because they love GPL. > Can this be said for LH or DN? I never see evidence that they > participate. Ever in VROC? Listed on GPLRank? > > I don't understand how you people cannot help but hold a genuine > appreciation for each and every one of the people who have contributed > to the GPL community. > > That BS with the French site is pathetic, it has nothing to do with > legalities -- it was just plain un-cool to do that. We all owe DN > better. I've never met him, but DN is a very good friend of mine. > > Cut him some slack, he sure as hell has been good to you. > > Randy

"Richard G Clegg" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:8l4i5u$gu8$[email hidden]...

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> Randy Riggs <[email hidden]> wrote: > : I have to say, I'm completely blown away with all the these people on > : RAS with the nerve to question DN's motives and be so rude as to > : demand an explanation. > > I think it's rude to demand an explanation but it's fair enough to > ask for one.

No. You have the RIGHT to ask for one. Everyone has the right to make an ass of themselves. Dave, on the other hand, has the RIGHT to charge for his products. Since Dave has the right to charge for his products he has the right to tell anyone who asks why to "piss off," or, even more appropriately, to ignore them completely.

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> > : Damndest display of dishourable sponges I think > : I've ever had the displeasure of witnessing. About the same as getting > : peeved at one of your friends for asking for some help with the gas > : money after giving you a ride. > > Hmm... I think it's like getting peeved at one of your friends for > asking for some help with the gas money when you never do and neither > do your other friends. > > Sorry, I just believe in the free software ideal. While Dave has a > perfect right to charge for what he does I'd prefer the precedent not to > be set for user-done add-ons to games.

Man, are YOU trying to lock the barn door after the horse has bolted. That precedent was set decades ago. Many of these products you can find on the shelves of software stores. Look, I believe in the freesoftware Ideal too. I use Linux. I support the FSF and RMS. I ALSO use GPL, which is definately NOT GPL'd. This does not make me a hypocrite. It means I support Free software where I can and aknowledge the rights of those who charge me for their output. I have the RIGHT not to buy it, if I so chose. Noone OWES you free software. You want to know the people who frost my cake? Not the Noonans who deign to charge for the 10% tip of the iceberg of their work. No. The people who "give" their work away with restrictions and conditions up the wazoo. Especially where their own work relies on the fair use principle in the first place, and their "license" denies fair use of their fair use. These people are the hypocrites if they are free software advocates, and at least borderline hypocrites if they don't. "Oh sure, I popped a new dash into GPL, but don't you pop a new gauge into my dash without my permission Sparky." This is propriatary software, with a more restrictive license than many commercial games, not withstanding the fact that it is distributed for "free." It is not free software, and in that light has not been "contributed" at all to the community. I would like nothing better than to see the free software ethic invade the user add on community. It will have to invade the driving sim community, because , so far, it hardly exists here. You'll have to explain what "free software" even MEANS to most of the people making add ons. THEY think it means you can download it for free, when in fact, *according to RMS it's perfectly ok to charge for free software!* Did you get that last? Go to the GNU site and read up on what RMS has to say about charging for software. > > (And for the record I'm paid in a job where programming is one of my > main duties but try to give my code away freely wherever this is not > limited by my terms of employment). So you don't mind getting paid for your programing? Who is paying Noonan, and hasn't he already given away the bulk of his work for GPL? Do YOU get payed for writing the software you give away freely, or do you donate your time to these projects? > > Still, we now return you to your scheduled display of "Sierra and > Microsoft do it so it must be moral"... > Sierra is scum. Microsoft is lower than that. But that's a whole 'nother kettle of stinky fish. > -- > Richard G. Clegg Only the mind is waving > Networks and Non-Linear Dynamics Group > Dept. of Mathematics, Uni. of York > UPDATED WWW: http://manor.york.ac.uk/ Ok, I've rattled more than just YOUR cage with this post. Let the attacks begin.

good post Randy MS "Randy Riggs" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > I have to say, I'm completely blown away with all the these people on > RAS

[email hidden] (Richard G Clegg) wrote in <8l4i5u$gu8$[email hidden]>: >Randy Riggs <[email hidden]> wrote: >: I have to say, I'm completely blown away with all the these people on >: RAS with the nerve to question DN's motives and be so rude as to >: demand an explanation. I agree 100% Randy, well said. >>I think it's rude to demand an explanation but it's fair enough to >>ask for one. Not in this case Richard. One of the most basic rules of newsgroup participation says to lurk for a long enough period of time that you know what's going on, so that you know what your talking about before you open your mouth. The person "challenging" Dave for an explanation was completely ignorant of the scope of Daves contributions. Further, I don't consider it appropriate to even ask. An offer to purchase a product was made, the terms crystal clear. You either buy it or you don't, anything beyond that is whining. I personally didn't even want the converter as gpl was already taking up enough of my life, but I purchased it anyway to say THANK YOU to Dave Noonan for his many GIFTS to this community. -- Don Scurlock Vancouver,B.C. GPLRank -4.30 Come see how you rank, at the GPLRank site http://gplrank.schuerkamp.de/

Richard G Clegg wrote: > I think it's rude to demand an explanation but it's fair enough to > ask for one. > Except in politics, "fair" is no excuse for "rude" .... Didn't yo mama tell you that? > . > > I just believe in the free software ideal. While Dave has a > perfect right to charge for what he does I'd prefer the precedent not to > be set for user-done add-ons to games. Seems to me the "precedent" you protest is larger than most commercial add-on packs AND is cheaper than most of same. > > > (And for the record I'm paid in a job where programming is one of my > main duties but try to give my code away freely I look forward to your first posted track.... Really. Yr friend in the aether, smogbike > >

Well Dave Noonan *is* on GPLRank, but I thoroughly agree, people should get off his back, the man's a marvel, and without his excellent work, not to mention other dedicated souls, i wonder just how long GPL would have lasted. -- -Ace- (GPLRank +1.83) Randy Riggs <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... <snip> > The motives of some of the people who have made great contributions to > GPL are more obvious. It seems to me the GPLEA guys -- and all the > others I can think of at the moment -- do it because they love GPL. > Can this be said for LH or DN? I never see evidence that they > participate. Ever in VROC? Listed on GPLRank? <mo' snippage>

If your referring to my previous comments Randy, let me explain for the nth'teen time that I wasn't demanding an explanation, but only really curious. I really think MORE peoples work in the sim community deserves some sort of compensation, so I'm definitely not saying that DN should or shouldn't be charging ME for his service. Randy Riggs <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> I have to say, I'm completely blown away with all the these people on > RAS with the nerve to question DN's motives and be so rude as to > demand an explanation. Damndest display of dishourable sponges I think > I've ever had the displeasure of witnessing. About the same as getting > peeved at one of your friends for asking for some help with the gas > money after giving you a ride. You may just owe him alot more than > he's asking for. > > Unless DN is under some covert contract from someone with very deep > pockets, he will *never* be appropriately compensated for the work he > has done for all of the GPL community, not even close. Have any of you > who have questioned DN ever hired a programmer -- they don't come > cheap. > > Don't you wonder why they do it? Why did Larry Holbert write VROC? I > never see or hear about them being active racers, why would they > bother? For those of you that don't know: It's a hell of a lot of work > to produce these things. Instead of dicking around with a track or > utility for us they could be on the clock making money for > themseleves. I'm very curious and I'd absolutely love for an > opportunity to buy either of them pints all night, f#*@#ng least I > could do -- I'm sure there must be some interesting stories there. > > The motives of some of the people who have made great contributions to > GPL are more obvious. It seems to me the GPLEA guys -- and all the > others I can think of at the moment -- do it because they love GPL. > Can this be said for LH or DN? I never see evidence that they > participate. Ever in VROC? Listed on GPLRank? > > I don't understand how you people cannot help but hold a genuine > appreciation for each and every one of the people who have contributed > to the GPL community. > > That BS with the French site is pathetic, it has nothing to do with > legalities -- it was just plain un-cool to do that. We all owe DN > better. I've never met him, but DN is a very good friend of mine. > > Cut him some slack, he sure as hell has been good to you. > > Randy

On Wed, 19 Jul 2000 15:05:24 GMT, [email hidden] (Randy Riggs) wrote: >I have to say, I'm completely blown away with all the these people on >RAS with the nerve to question DN's motives and be so rude as to<snip> Yep. I even skipped that thread, and I NEVER skip threads :) Andre

> ... One of the most basic rules of newsgroup > participation says to lurk for a long enough period of time that you know > what's going on, so that you know what your talking about before you openyour > mouth. If people bothered to lurk in this newsgroup the traffic would be cut 50%. "What is the best Wheel?"... "GP3 has been delayed to August!" ... "Is NFS:PU any good?".... My feeling on free software? Not everything has to be free, so get over it. Linux has managed to raise a community of people who expect to pay for nothing. Not games, not apps, not anything.

Kevin Gavitt <[email hidden]> wrote: : "Richard G Clegg" <[email hidden]> wrote in message : news:8l4i5u$gu8$[email hidden]... :> Randy Riggs <[email hidden]> wrote: :> : I have to say, I'm completely blown away with all the these people on :> : RAS with the nerve to question DN's motives and be so rude as to :> : demand an explanation. :> :> I think it's rude to demand an explanation but it's fair enough to :> ask for one. : No. You have the RIGHT to ask for one. Everyone has the right to make an ass : of themselves. Thank you - very generous. : Dave, on the other hand, has the RIGHT to charge for his products. As indeed I said myself later. :> Sorry, I just believe in the free software ideal. While Dave has a :> perfect right to charge for what he does I'd prefer the precedent not to :> be set for user-done add-ons to games. : Man, are YOU trying to lock the barn door after the horse has bolted. That : precedent was set decades ago. Many of these products you can find on the : shelves of software stores. Fair enough - I'm well aware of that. : Look, I believe in the freesoftware Ideal too. I use Linux. I support the : FSF and RMS. I ALSO use GPL, which is definately NOT GPL'd. This does not : make me a hypocrite. It means I support Free software where I can and : aknowledge the rights of those who charge me for their output. I have the : RIGHT not to buy it, if I so chose. So why are you posting as if I just shat in your shoes? : Noone OWES you free software. Never said that. : I would like nothing better than to see the free software ethic invade the : user add on community. It will have to invade the driving sim community, : because , so far, it hardly exists here. You'll have to explain what "free : software" even MEANS to most of the people making add ons. THEY think it : means you can download it for free, when in fact, *according to RMS it's : perfectly ok to charge for free software!* : Did you get that last? Go to the GNU site and read up on what RMS has to say : about charging for software. Read it - believe most of it - but most people around these parts seem to be acting as though some guy who made a rude (but I thought pretty fair) point about free software being a good ideal has suggested something otherworldy and evil. -- Richard G. Clegg Only the mind is waving Networks and Non-Linear Dynamics Group Dept. of Mathematics, Uni. of York UPDATED WWW: http://manor.york.ac.uk/

"Marc Davey" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> I'm ion Business and ppl expect me to justify my pricing all the time. > Seems to be pretty standard these days to try and get the best deal u > can by grinding the Retailer/Wholesaler/Importer and by expecting him > to somehow justify their Price for whatever the Product or Service > should be. Why is or should D Noonan be exempt from this? You can't > seriously tell me that when you by a New Car you dont expect the > dealer to either reduce or justify his asking price

Is there more than one person offering a track converter? I don't think so. Pretty hard to squeeze someone for the best price when they are the only show in town. Stephen

"AndrewS" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:Ezqd5.5611$[email hidden]... > > ... One of the most basic rules of newsgroup > > participation says to lurk for a long enough period of time that youknow > > what's going on, so that you know what your talking about before youopen

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> your > > mouth. > > If people bothered to lurk in this newsgroup the traffic would be cut 50%. > "What is the best Wheel?"... "GP3 has been delayed to August!" ... "Is > NFS:PU any good?".... > > My feeling on free software? Not everything has to be free, so get over

it. > Linux has managed to raise a community of people who expect to pay for > nothing. Not games, not apps, not anything. > > When they start refusing to pay for cars and houses and groceries we're all in trouble. Or. . . they have a rude awakening coming. Seriously though, I've been at the computer game long enough that I remember when ALL software was free, and freely traded. Ok, those days are over, but the whole idea of "free" software has nothing to do with price. I kinda tired of seeing people demand free software be written for them, as if it were some sort of right they had to sponge off of other people's labor without putting anything back in themselves. The whole "free as in speach, not free as in beer" thing goes right over their head.

I seem to have arrived late! Exactly what was said by the French site? buzard "Randy Riggs" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> I have to say, I'm completely blown away with all the these people on > RAS with the nerve to question DN's motives and be so rude as to > demand an explanation. Damndest display of dishourable sponges I think > I've ever had the displeasure of witnessing. About the same as getting > peeved at one of your friends for asking for some help with the gas > money after giving you a ride. You may just owe him alot more than > he's asking for. > > Unless DN is under some covert contract from someone with very deep > pockets, he will *never* be appropriately compensated for the work he > has done for all of the GPL community, not even close. Have any of you > who have questioned DN ever hired a programmer -- they don't come > cheap. > > Don't you wonder why they do it? Why did Larry Holbert write VROC? I > never see or hear about them being active racers, why would they > bother? For those of you that don't know: It's a hell of a lot of work > to produce these things. Instead of dicking around with a track or > utility for us they could be on the clock making money for > themseleves. I'm very curious and I'd absolutely love for an > opportunity to buy either of them pints all night, f#*@#ng least I > could do -- I'm sure there must be some interesting stories there. > > The motives of some of the people who have made great contributions to > GPL are more obvious. It seems to me the GPLEA guys -- and all the > others I can think of at the moment -- do it because they love GPL. > Can this be said for LH or DN? I never see evidence that they > participate. Ever in VROC? Listed on GPLRank? > > I don't understand how you people cannot help but hold a genuine > appreciation for each and every one of the people who have contributed > to the GPL community. > > That BS with the French site is pathetic, it has nothing to do with > legalities -- it was just plain un-cool to do that. We all owe DN > better. I've never met him, but DN is a very good friend of mine. > > Cut him some slack, he sure as hell has been good to you. > > Randy

I'm ion Business and ppl expect me to justify my pricing all the time. Seems to be pretty standard these days to try and get the best deal u can by grinding the Retailer/Wholesaler/Importer and by expecting him to somehow justify their Price for whatever the Product or Service should be. Why is or should D Noonan be exempt from this? You can't seriously tell me that when you by a New Car you dont expect the dealer to either reduce or justify his asking price

OOps, Dave is posted on GPLRank, used to race a little with Larry, dunno what they up to lately though, been away fer awhile Martyn_D "m.seery" wrote:

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> good post Randy > > MS > "Randy Riggs" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > I have to say, I'm completely blown away with all the these people on > > RAS

On Wed, 19 Jul 2000 21:29:33 +0100, "Ace" <[email hidden]> wrote: >Well Dave Noonan *is* on GPLRank, but I thoroughly agree, people should get >off his back, the man's a marvel, and without his excellent work, not to >mention other dedicated souls, i wonder just how long GPL would have lasted. This is a thread I didn't really want to be involved in (though I did buy his converter earlier this summer), but guess who's exactly one place ahead of Dave in GPLRank? Better stop work on Suzuka, Dave. You've got one quarter of a second to make up! :-) Martin Long Live Nigel Mansell!

Kevin Gavitt <[email hidden]> wrote: : Seriously though, I've been at the computer game long enough that I remember : when ALL software was free, and freely traded. Well, wasn't it better? I thought it was. : Ok, those days are over, but the whole idea of "free" software has nothing : to do with price. I kinda tired of seeing people demand free software be : written for them, as if it were some sort of right they had to sponge off of : other people's labor without putting anything back in themselves. I don't think anyone here has demanded free software be written for them. Just questionned the action of someone charging for software when others have, in fact, given theirs away free. Also, where's this "sponging" thing come from? In the elder days it was never a trade compact was it "I write this for you and then you write this for me". : The whole "free as in speach, not free as in beer" thing goes right over : their head. That's because it's a vacuous statement meaning nothing very much about anything. Do you honestly expect anyone to read that and go "Ah, I see now, your revealing statement has cleared up the whole matter for me" and head off home. Sorry, I still believe that where possible software should be free as in free beer not free as in free speech. -- Richard G. Clegg Only the mind is waving Networks and Non-Linear Dynamics Group Dept. of Mathematics, Uni. of York UPDATED WWW: http://manor.york.ac.uk/

Marc Davey wrote:

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> > I'm ion Business and ppl expect me to justify my pricing all the time. > Seems to be pretty standard these days to try and get the best deal u > can by grinding the Retailer/Wholesaler/Importer and by expecting him > to somehow justify their Price for whatever the Product or Service > should be. Why is or should D Noonan be exempt from this? You can't > seriously tell me that when you by a New Car you dont expect the > dealer to either reduce or justify his asking price

Hmmm... I have yet to get on Microsoft's or Hasbro's, or Sierra's, or even EB's site (or even call them doing this, for that matter) and start haggling over price on a software product I'm interested in... So Mr. Gates, I'll offer you $70 for W98 Upgrade edition and tell me, why are you charging $90 for it? Can you please justify why your product is worth $90? Excuse me... where did you tell me to shove my computer? Man, I've been missing out on software price haggling this whole time... I must be living in a cave! :-) Oh... buying software IS really different from buying a car? Go figure! Dave

"David R. Ericson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> > Marc Davey wrote: > > > > I'm ion Business and ppl expect me to justify my pricing all the time. > > Seems to be pretty standard these days to try and get the best deal u > > can by grinding the Retailer/Wholesaler/Importer and by expecting him > > to somehow justify their Price for whatever the Product or Service > > should be. Why is or should D Noonan be exempt from this? You can't > > seriously tell me that when you by a New Car you dont expect the > > dealer to either reduce or justify his asking price > > Hmmm... I have yet to get on Microsoft's or Hasbro's, or Sierra's, or > even EB's site (or even call them doing this, for that matter) and start > haggling over price on a software product I'm interested in... So Mr.

Gates, > I'll offer you $70 for W98 Upgrade edition and tell me, why are youcharging > $90 for it? Can you please justify why your product is worth $90? Excuse > me... where did you tell me to shove my computer? > > Man, I've been missing out on software price haggling this whole time... > I must be living in a cave! :-) Yep, guess you have. This is exactly the way site license prices are set. For the boxed retail OS you are right, you don't haggle with Bill, you haggle with the owner/operater of the retail store. There is no such thing as a fixed price in a free economy. By the way, I'm the owner of a retail store, I've got lots of customers who know this and haggle with me all the time. Oftentimes I let them "win" by taking their money. > > Oh... buying software IS really different from buying a car? Go figure! > > Dave Only in your perception. The only real difference is in the cost benifit ratio. For a twenty dollar item it isn't worth the sellers time to spend too much time haggling. It isn't worth YOUR time either.

Kevin Gavitt wrote: > > There is no such thing as a fixed price in a free economy. > > By the way, I'm the owner of a retail store, I've got lots of customers who > know this and haggle with me all the time. Oftentimes I let them "win" by > taking their money. True, it is a free economy. However, I have never seen a customer haggling a price in a retail store, be it Wal-Mart or Electronics Boutique. I just don't think you would get very far with the person behind the counter by haggling a price at these stores. I assume, because you say your customers haggle prices with you all the time that you have a small store, which requires your presence there a lot. That's the only way it would make sense to me that you have customers haggling prices. So what do you sell at your store, and where are you located? Do you have an online presence where I can haggle prices with you? Dave

I wouldn't be surprised if there IS haggleling going on when you buy W98, except instead it's the retailer\wholesaler that haggles the best price for volume with MS. So it is going on. David R. Ericson <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> > Marc Davey wrote: > > > > I'm ion Business and ppl expect me to justify my pricing all the time. > > Seems to be pretty standard these days to try and get the best deal u > > can by grinding the Retailer/Wholesaler/Importer and by expecting him > > to somehow justify their Price for whatever the Product or Service > > should be. Why is or should D Noonan be exempt from this? You can't > > seriously tell me that when you by a New Car you dont expect the > > dealer to either reduce or justify his asking price > > Hmmm... I have yet to get on Microsoft's or Hasbro's, or Sierra's, or > even EB's site (or even call them doing this, for that matter) and start > haggling over price on a software product I'm interested in... So Mr.

Gates, > I'll offer you $70 for W98 Upgrade edition and tell me, why are youcharging

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> $90 for it? Can you please justify why your product is worth $90? Excuse > me... where did you tell me to shove my computer? > > Man, I've been missing out on software price haggling this whole time... > I must be living in a cave! :-) > > Oh... buying software IS really different from buying a car? Go figure! > > Dave

AndrewS wrote: > > Linux has managed to raise a community of people who expect to pay for > nothing. Not games, not apps, not anything. That's nothing. Capitalism has managed to raise a whole society that expects to get paid for *everything*. Looking at co-workers & some government employees, I'd say many even demand getting money for doing absolutely *nothing*! :-) Greedy bastards. :-) -- Chuck Kandler A man is no less a Slave just because he is allowed to choose a new Master every four years. Registered Linux User #180746 http://counter.li.org

Marc Davey wrote: > > You can't > seriously tell me that when you by a New Car you dont expect the > dealer to either reduce or justify his asking price And the auto industry is a friggin' joke as well. I have family members who work at each of the Big 3. If they go & buy a car, there's anywhere from 3 to 5 Grand lopped off the price right then & there. Don't tell me the auto company isn't *still* making a profit on this purchase! Just goes to show how badly we're always getting ripped off by these businesses. Then you have people who will try & make you feel guilty for not just laying down & being stepped on by these businesses, but telling it how it really is. Big-business apologists are so brain-washed, it's pathetic. It's as though, "Oh, you're really ripping society off big time. But since you'll also allow us to work for you, it's OK." Baloney. Legalized theft, plain & simple. -- Chuck Kandler A man is no less a Slave just because he is allowed to choose a new Master every four years. Registered Linux User #180746 http://counter.li.org

On Fri, 21 Jul 2000 01:22:45 GMT, Uncle Fester <[email hidden]> wrote:

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>Marc Davey wrote: >> >> You can't >> seriously tell me that when you by a New Car you dont expect the >> dealer to either reduce or justify his asking price > > > >And the auto industry is a friggin' joke as well. I have family members >who work at each of the Big 3. If they go & buy a car, there's anywhere >from 3 to 5 Grand lopped off the price right then & there. Don't tell >me the auto company isn't *still* making a profit on this purchase! >Just goes to show how badly we're always getting ripped off by these >businesses. Then you have people who will try & make you feel guilty >for not just laying down & being stepped on by these businesses, but >telling it how it really is. Big-business apologists are so >brain-washed, it's pathetic. It's as though, "Oh, you're really ripping >society off big time. But since you'll also allow us to work for you, >it's OK." Baloney. Legalized theft, plain & simple. > >-- >Chuck Kandler > >A man is no less a Slave just because he is >allowed to choose a new Master every four years. > >Registered Linux User #180746 >http://counter.li.org

And once again you all only read something once and entirely miss the point. The fact is in all other instances ppl demand anr or assume the right question pricing. What makes this different?

You know, it's shit like this, is why I haven't read the posts in R.A.S. for almost a year Jim Dunphy The Pits www.theuspits.com "Marc Davey" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> On Fri, 21 Jul 2000 01:22:45 GMT, Uncle Fester <[email hidden]> > wrote: > > >Marc Davey wrote: > >> > >> You can't > >> seriously tell me that when you by a New Car you dont expect the > >> dealer to either reduce or justify his asking price > > > > > > > >And the auto industry is a friggin' joke as well. I have family members > >who work at each of the Big 3. If they go & buy a car, there's anywhere > >from 3 to 5 Grand lopped off the price right then & there. Don't tell > >me the auto company isn't *still* making a profit on this purchase! > >Just goes to show how badly we're always getting ripped off by these > >businesses. Then you have people who will try & make you feel guilty > >for not just laying down & being stepped on by these businesses, but > >telling it how it really is. Big-business apologists are so > >brain-washed, it's pathetic. It's as though, "Oh, you're really ripping > >society off big time. But since you'll also allow us to work for you, > >it's OK." Baloney. Legalized theft, plain & simple. > > > >-- > >Chuck Kandler > > > >A man is no less a Slave just because he is > >allowed to choose a new Master every four years. > > > >Registered Linux User #180746 > >http://counter.li.org > > And once again you all only read something once and entirely miss the > point. The fact is in all other instances ppl demand anr or assume the > right question pricing. What makes this different?

Jim Dunphy wrote: > > You know, it's shit like this, is why I haven't read the posts in R.A.S. for > almost a year > Don't get me wrong here. I've posted before, & I'll reiterate, that I feel DN is contributing much to the sim community. His asking price is reasonable, and I paid it myself. Great value. That rant was just my anti-capitalist feelings, not any anti-DN feelings. -- Chuck Kandler A man is no less a Slave just because he is allowed to choose a new Master every four years. Registered Linux User #180746 http://counter.li.org

Randy Riggs <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... snip

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> The motives of some of the people who have made great contributions to > GPL are more obvious. It seems to me the GPLEA guys -- and all the > others I can think of at the moment -- do it because they love GPL. > Can this be said for LH or DN? I never see evidence that they > participate. Ever in VROC? Listed on GPLRank? > > I don't understand how you people cannot help but hold a genuine > appreciation for each and every one of the people who have contributed > to the GPL community. > > That BS with the French site is pathetic, it has nothing to do with > legalities -- it was just plain un-cool to do that. We all owe DN > better. I've never met him, but DN is a very good friend of mine. > > Cut him some slack, he sure as hell has been good to you. > > Randy

Randy, As far as Larry Holbert is concerned, he does race periodically online, but only in F2/3 leagues. The same holds true for Alison Hine. But David Noonan has always been a mystery to me. I've tried to contact him on several occasions, but I had to go through Jan Kohl to do so. If you remember at one point there was even discussion that David Noonan wasn't even a real person, but rather a pen name for a led programmer at Papyrus. At this point I would venture to say that David's passion is on the creative/programmer side rather then running wheel to wheel with the rest of us crazies !! But then again, if David is using a online name, how would we know. Joel Willstein

On Sat, 22 Jul 2000 05:19:30 GMT, "Jim Dunphy" <[email hidden]> wrote: >You know, it's shit like this, is why I haven't read the posts in R.A.S. for >almost a year Hi Jim! I was wondering where you'd gone off to! Martin Long Live Nigel Mansell!

Joel Willstein wrote:

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> > Randy, > > As far as Larry Holbert is concerned, he does race periodically online, > but only in F2/3 leagues. The same holds true for Alison Hine. But David > Noonan has always been a mystery to me. I've tried to contact him on > several occasions, but I had to go through Jan Kohl to do so. If you > remember at one point there was even discussion that David Noonan wasn't > even a real person, but rather a pen name for a led programmer at Papyrus.

Wrong, he's Geoff Crammond, and you can see by all the disappointed people in here how much time he has spent on GPL and the converters rather than coding GP3...:-) > At this point I would venture to say that David's passion is on the > creative/programmer side rather then running wheel to wheel with the rest of > us crazies !! But then again, if David is using a online name, how would we > know. I don't know if David races much on-line, but he actually told us over a beer a couple of weeks ago that the reason he don't put out even more stuff is this; he loves driving GPL so much that he don't have the time... Beers and cheers (uncle) Goy "Team Mirage" http://www.teammirage.com/ "The Pits" http://www.theuspits.com/ * Spam is for losers who can't get business any other way * "Spamkiller" http://www.spamkiller.com