Re: GP3 "canned" spins

Simon Brown wrote: > Also you can definitely catch spins if you're quick enough. It doesn't help > of course, that the game is only running at 25 fps. Anyway, just wanted to > comment on those particular aspects. I suspect much of the "on rails" infamy has been created by people who have (inadverently) driven with the throttle traction control help driving aid on. It's on by default even on the Ace level so it'd be understandable if some careless guys have just forgotten to disable it. With it, the car is so stable that once you do enter an accelerated spin, it is usually just a "snap 180" that may well appear canned. And nothing much you can do about it either. Without it, the car is much more lively and dynamic. I shouldn't be talking about a game under rewiev before the issue is out, but this glaring misinformation/take/understanding started to piss me off, kinda. And it does have racing lines visible as in RealLife in the corners where rubber is rubbed off onto the tarmac. And I'm quite drunk. And tired after 48 hours of Hockenheim, prepping up to defend the honour of the nation in case Mikas screw up. Then again, it might be that the warez version has throttle help integrated :-P -lark-

Ok, I don't want to comment on the game as a whole because I haven't tried it enough yet, but I read someone here say that GP3 had "canned" spins. It's just not true. You can do doughnuts now in dry and wet conditions. The car will sit there in first gear spinning round in endless continuous circles. Sure when you spin, a large amount of the time you end up facing the other way, but that's what the cars should do, they are extremely back heavy afterall, and that's what happens in F1. Also you can definitely catch spins if you're quick enough. It doesn't help of course, that the game is only running at 25 fps. Anyway, just wanted to comment on those particular aspects.

"T.Galvin" <[email hidden]> wrote:

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> >"Jo Helsen" <[email hidden]> wrote in message >news:[email hidden]... >> "Jan Verschueren" <[email hidden]> wrote: >> >> >Seconded... though the breakaway point still feels somewhat arbitrary, >> >there's nothing much wrong with the spins themselves, IMO. >> > >> >> Jan, why is it that I suddenly am starting to see you as the currently >most >> reliable source for me to find out what GP3 *really* is like? :-) >> >> JoH > >Maybe he is saying what you want to hear

Well, you should know that Jan has a completely different idea of what a sim must be than I have. Nevertheless I found all his comments very hopeful for what *I* expected GP3 to be. So it is indeed what I wanted to hear, but from someone belonging to the "other side"! :-) JoH ------- The best way to accelerate a Mac is 9.81 m/s2 -------- --------------------------------------------------------------

"Jo Helsen" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> "Jan Verschueren" <[email hidden]> wrote: > > >Seconded... though the breakaway point still feels somewhat arbitrary, > >there's nothing much wrong with the spins themselves, IMO. > > > > Jan, why is it that I suddenly am starting to see you as the currently

most > reliable source for me to find out what GP3 *really* is like? :-) > > JoH Maybe he is saying what you want to hear

Seconded... though the breakaway point still feels somewhat arbitrary, there's nothing much wrong with the spins themselves, IMO. Jan. =--- Simon Brown wrote...

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> Ok, I don't want to comment on the game as a whole because I haven't tried > it enough yet, but I read someone here say that GP3 had "canned" spins. > It's just not true. You can do doughnuts now in dry and wet conditions. > The car will sit there in first gear spinning round in endless continuous > circles. Sure when you spin, a large amount of the time you end up facing > the other way, but that's what the cars should do, they are extremely back > heavy afterall, and that's what happens in F1. > Also you can definitely catch spins if you're quick enough. It doesn't

help > of course, that the game is only running at 25 fps. Anyway, just wantedto > comment on those particular aspects.

"Jan Verschueren" <[email hidden]> wrote: >Seconded... though the breakaway point still feels somewhat arbitrary, >there's nothing much wrong with the spins themselves, IMO. > Jan, why is it that I suddenly am starting to see you as the currently most reliable source for me to find out what GP3 *really* is like? :-) JoH ------- The best way to accelerate a Mac is 9.81 m/s2 -------- --------------------------------------------------------------

Cheers Jo, appreciate the comment. I just call it as I see it. Jan. =--- Jo Helsen wrote...

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> <snip> > Jan, why is it that I suddenly am starting to see you as > the currently most reliable source for me to find out > what GP3 *really* is like? :-) > > JoH > > ------- The best way to accelerate a Mac is 9.81 m/s2 -------- > --------------------------------------------------------------

On Sun, 23 Jul 2000 03:26:15 +0000, Joona Vainio <[email hidden]> wrote: >I shouldn't be talking about a game under rewiev before the issue is >out, but this glaring misinformation/take/understanding started to piss >me off, kinda. And it does have racing lines visible as in RealLife in >the corners where rubber is rubbed off onto the tarmac. And I'm quite >drunk. And tired after 48 hours of Hockenheim, prepping up to defend the >honour of the nation in case Mikas screw up. 48 hours of _Hockenheim_? Ewwwwwwgh. Makes GPL Monza sound like the most exciting and refreshing track ever. >Then again, it might be that the warez version has throttle help >integrated :-P So the review copy is final? Is it any good?

>Seconded... though the breakaway point still feels somewhat arbitrary, >there's nothing much wrong with the spins themselves, IMO. Jan, why is it that I suddenly am starting to see you as the currently most reliable source for me to find out what GP3 *really* is like? :-) JoH ------- The best way to accelerate a Mac is 9.81 m/s2 -------- --------------------------------------------------------------

Toni Lassila wrote: > 48 hours of _Hockenheim_? Ewwwwwwgh. Makes GPL Monza sound like the most > exciting and refreshing track ever. Well, I sorta want to make a direct comparison to the next GP in the telly, and that's why I need to know GP3 Hockenheim in my sleep. > >Then again, it might be that the warez version has throttle help > >integrated :-P > > So the review copy is final? Is it any good? Final, yes. Silver. So I guess you can trust the release date if they don't have trouble with manuals, packaging, or shipments. And, um... I'm having fun. -lark-

On Sun, 23 Jul 2000 17:00:27 +0000, Joona Vainio <[email hidden]> wrote: >> 48 hours of _Hockenheim_? Ewwwwwwgh. Makes GPL Monza sound like the most >> exciting and refreshing track ever. >Well, I sorta want to make a direct comparison to the next GP in the >telly, and that's why I need to know GP3 Hockenheim in my sleep. That should take about 5 minutes of duller than summertime TV programming cruising with the pedal nailed to the floor.

On Sat, 22 Jul 2000 22:56:30 GMT, Simon Brown <[email hidden]> wrote: >The car will sit there in first gear spinning round in endless continuous >circles. Sure when you spin, a large amount of the time you end up facing did you also notice you cannot break or overrev the engine, just like in gp2, no matter what you set car damage to? That did it for me. Uwe -- Uwe Schuerkamp //////////////////////////// http://www.schuerkamp.de/ Herford, Germany \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ (52.0N/8.5E) Ever wondered what's wrong with the world? http://bnetwork.com/ PGP Fingerprint: 2E 13 20 22 9A 3F 63 7F 67 6F E9 B1 A8 36 A4 61

Real F1 cars are fitted with rev limiters and devices that won't allow a gear change if it would be outside the rev range of the engine. Jeez, these modern F1 drivers have it easy, they only use the clutch about 3 times a race as well ;) -- Ian Parker "Ambition is a poor excuse for not having sense enough to be lazy." <email invalid due to spam> Uwe Schuerkamp <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > On Sat, 22 Jul 2000 22:56:30 GMT, Simon Brown <[email hidden]> wrote: > > >The car will sit there in first gear spinning round in endless continuous > >circles. Sure when you spin, a large amount of the time you end up facing > > > did you also notice you cannot break or overrev the engine, > just like in gp2, no matter what you set car damage to? That > did it for me. > > Uwe > >

Actually, my comment about being able to catch spins, you can only do it by lifting as well as applying opposite lock. On reflection the game doesn't feel dynamic enough.

[email hidden] (Ian P) wrote: >Real F1 cars are fitted with rev limiters and devices that won't allow a >gear change if it would be outside the rev range of the engine. >Jeez, these modern F1 drivers have it easy, they only use the clutch >about 3 times a race as well ;) If that is true, how did H�kkinen manage to shift one gear too low last year in ..uuh...Monza was it, and spin out. At that time there was discussion about the gear shifts in F1 cars...there is a rule that says the gear changes must go directly from the driver to the gear box, without ANY kind of intelligence or control. At least in this department GP3 is appalling, you cant even shift into HIGHER gear until the revs are high enough! So far, I'm extremely disappointed with GP3...I just HOPE that the version I have is from last January or thereabouts :P. Jussi

And you think Cart and Nascar use the clutch for every gearchange? On road courses, many Nascar drivers left foot brake and change gears with the Jerico transmission without the clutch. Indy cars have transaxles with dogs instead of constant mesh so a clutch is optional. Ian P wrote in message <8lhso1$dm1$[email hidden]>... >Real F1 cars are fitted with rev limiters and devices that won't allow a >gear change if it would be outside the rev range of the engine. >Jeez, these modern F1 drivers have it easy, they only use the clutch about3

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>times a race as well ;) > >-- >Ian Parker >"Ambition is a poor excuse for not having sense enough to be lazy." > ><email invalid due to spam> > > >Uwe Schuerkamp <[email hidden]> wrote in message >news:[email hidden]... >> On Sat, 22 Jul 2000 22:56:30 GMT, Simon Brown ><[email hidden]> wrote: >> >> >The car will sit there in first gear spinning round in endless

continuous

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>> >circles. Sure when you spin, a large amount of the time you end up >facing >> >> >> did you also notice you cannot break or overrev the engine, >> just like in gp2, no matter what you set car damage to? That >> did it for me. >> >> Uwe >> >> > >

Jussi Lassila wrote:

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> > [email hidden] (Ian P) wrote: > > >Real F1 cars are fitted with rev limiters and devices that won't allow a > >gear change if it would be outside the rev range of the engine. > >Jeez, these modern F1 drivers have it easy, they only use the clutch > >about 3 times a race as well ;) > > If that is true, how did H�kkinen manage to shift one gear too low last > year in ..uuh...Monza was it, and spin out.

Hmmm? Brrrrraaaaa(downshift)aaaa(downshift)aaak(downshift)eeeeaaaaaAAAACCELERAT... oh shit, SPIN, I guess there were too many downshifts. Could that be it, perhaps? At that time there was > discussion about the gear shifts in F1 cars...there is a rule that says > the gear changes must go directly from the driver to the gear box, > without ANY kind of intelligence or control. > > At least in this department GP3 is appalling, you cant even shift into > HIGHER gear until the revs are high enough! Dunno what you mean? It's perfectly possible to shift higher any way you like. Not that it was very smart, though. Looks like you don't know what the fuck you're talking about. -lark-

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] (Jussi Lassila) writes:

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> >Quote from the rules at http://www.fia.com/homepage/selection-a.html: > >9.4 Gear changing : > >9.4.1) For the purposes of, and only during gear changing, the clutch and >throttle need not be under the control of the driver. > >9.4.2) Each individual gear change must be initiated by the driver and, >within the mechanical constraints of the gearbox, the requested gear must >be engaged immediately unless over-rev protection is used. > >9.4.3 ) Multiple gear changes may be made following one driver request >provided they are not made before he needs the destination gear and that >the car is not driven by any of the intermediate gears during the >sequence. If for any reason the sequence cannot be completed the car must >be left in neutral or the original gear. > >9.4.4 ) If a gear change fails for mechanical reasons (as opposed to the >predicted engine revs in the target gear being too high), further >attempts to engage the gear may be made automatically without the driver >having to make a new request. > >9.4.5 ) If an over-rev protection strategy is used this may only prevent >engagement of the target gear, it must not induce any significant delay. >If a gear change is refused in this way, engagement may only follow a new >and separate request made by the driver. >

I can't believe they have detailed rules about this... Amazing what you learn. Eldred -- Tiger Stadium R.I.P. 1912-1999 Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett GPL hcp. +69.95 Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

[email hidden] (Richard Walker) wrote:

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>In message <[email hidden]> [email hidden] (Jussi Lassila) >wrote: > >> [email hidden] (Ian P) wrote: >> >> > Real F1 cars are fitted with rev limiters and devices that won't >> > allow a gear change if it would be outside the rev range of the >> > engine. Jeez, these modern F1 drivers have it easy, they only use >> > the clutch about 3 times a race as well ;) >> >> If that is true, how did H�kkinen manage to shift one gear too low >> last year in ..uuh...Monza was it, and spin out. > >Because, at the time, the revs were at an acceptable level for first or >second gear to be OK? > >> At that time there was discussion about the gear shifts in F1 >> cars...there is a rule that says the gear changes must go directly >> from the driver to the gear box, without ANY kind of intelligence or >> control. > >Sure? > >When the driver flicks the paddle, the throttle is released, clutch >pressed, gear changed, clutch released, and finally, the throttle >pressed. A computer does all that.

Yes, but the computer can't decide when or if to do it.

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>> At least in this department GP3 is appalling, you cant even shift into >> HIGHER gear until the revs are high enough! > >That is what happens in a real F1 car, I think. Well, I'm not 100% >certain, but it *does* happen the other way around - to stop burning out >engines. >

Well, just to prove my point, I digged up FIA rules for gear changing, and lo and behold, I'm wrong :P. My initial knowledge of the matter was from some Finnish newspapers, which I believe were a bit biased in the matter. Ah well. So, over-rev limiter is alloved when the gear is changed, but when changing upwards, the change must be immediate. Quote from the rules at http://www.fia.com/homepage/selection-a.html: 9.4 Gear changing : 9.4.1) For the purposes of, and only during gear changing, the clutch and throttle need not be under the control of the driver. 9.4.2) Each individual gear change must be initiated by the driver and, within the mechanical constraints of the gearbox, the requested gear must be engaged immediately unless over-rev protection is used. 9.4.3 ) Multiple gear changes may be made following one driver request provided they are not made before he needs the destination gear and that the car is not driven by any of the intermediate gears during the sequence. If for any reason the sequence cannot be completed the car must be left in neutral or the original gear. 9.4.4 ) If a gear change fails for mechanical reasons (as opposed to the predicted engine revs in the target gear being too high), further attempts to engage the gear may be made automatically without the driver having to make a new request. 9.4.5 ) If an over-rev protection strategy is used this may only prevent engagement of the target gear, it must not induce any significant delay. If a gear change is refused in this way, engagement may only follow a new and separate request made by the driver.

In message <[email hidden]> [email hidden] (Jussi Lassila) wrote:

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> [email hidden] (Ian P) wrote: > > > Real F1 cars are fitted with rev limiters and devices that won't allow a > > gear change if it would be outside the rev range of the engine. Jeez, > > these modern F1 drivers have it easy, they only use the clutch about 3 > > times a race as well ;) > > If that is true, how did H�kkinen manage to shift one gear too low last > year in ..uuh...Monza was it, and spin out.

Because, at the time, the revs were at an acceptable level for first or second gear to be OK? > At that time there was discussion about the gear shifts in F1 cars...there > is a rule that says the gear changes must go directly from the driver to > the gear box, without ANY kind of intelligence or control. Sure? When the driver flicks the paddle, the throttle is released, clutch pressed, gear changed, clutch released, and finally, the throttle pressed. A computer does all that. > At least in this department GP3 is appalling, you cant even shift into > HIGHER gear until the revs are high enough! That is what happens in a real F1 car, I think. Well, I'm not 100% certain, but it *does* happen the other way around - to stop burning out engines. -- Richard. "Bang bang Maxwell's silver hammer made sure that she was dead."

Hello, > > At that time there was discussion about the gear shifts in F1cars...there > > is a rule that says the gear changes must go directly from the driver to > > the gear box, without ANY kind of intelligence or control. > > Sure? > > When the driver flicks the paddle, the throttle is released, clutchpressed, > gear changed, clutch released, and finally, the throttle pressed. A > computer does all that. And, in fact the engine is totally swiched off during gear shifting. After the shifting, the engine is started again. (Well, at least the Mercedes engine in McLaren does that. Don't actually know about the others.) -- Jyrki Laine ; GPLRank +10.91 (feels like I have reached my limit :( ) <-- (No electrons were harmed in production of this message) -->

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] writes: >>I can't believe they have detailed rules about this... Amazing what you >learn. > >Amazingly anal IMO. :-) >-- >Nos I was *thinking* that, but I didn't want to SAY it...<g> Eldred -- Tiger Stadium R.I.P. 1912-1999 Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett GPL hcp. +69.95 Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

On 26 Jul 2000 18:21:25 GMT, [email hidden] (EldredP) thus spoke: >I can't believe they have detailed rules about this... Amazing what you learn. Amazingly anal IMO. :-) -- Nos

On Thu, 27 Jul 2000 02:26:34 GMT, [email hidden] wrote:

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>On 26 Jul 2000 18:21:25 GMT, [email hidden] (EldredP) thus >spoke: > > >>I can't believe they have detailed rules about this... Amazing what you learn. > >Amazingly anal IMO. :-)

Yeah, well.. I suppose this is the situation you get when engineers stretch the rules as far as they possibly can regardless of the intentions of the regulations. The sport starts off with more "general" regulations. But when the interests get bigger, the competitors start to exploit every little hole they can find so you are pushed to close those holes with "anal" detailed regulations. JoH

spoke: Amazingly ***IMO. :-) -- Nos

>>I can't believe they have detailed rules about this... Amazing what you >learn. >Amazingly ***IMO. :-) >-- >Nos I was *thinking* that, but I didn't want to SAY it...<g> Eldred -- Tiger Stadium R.I.P. 1912-1999 Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett GPL hcp. +69.95 Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

In article <8lhso1$dm1$[email hidden]>, Ian P <[email hidden]> wrote:

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>Real F1 cars are fitted with rev limiters and devices that won't allow a >gear change if it would be outside the rev range of the engine. >Jeez, these modern F1 drivers have it easy, they only use the clutch about 3 >times a race as well ;) > >-- >Ian Parker

<irony> Aaaah, this explains why you see the real f1 drivers floor the throttle and throw the car into first gear as soon as the mechanics start the engine! They cannot damage the engine even if they wanted to!!! </irony> Thanks for finally explaining this mistery ;-) uwe -- Uwe Schuerkamp, QuBiz ////////////// Phone: +49 5241 80 10 66 Carl-Bertelsmann-Str. 161 I \\\\\\\\\\ uwe.schuerkamp at qubiz.com 33311 Guetersloh \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ http://www.schuerkamp.de/ PGP Fingerprint: 2E 13 20 22 9A 3F 63 7F 67 6F E9 B1 A8 36 A4 61