Re: GP3 & 3 Axis is no go if your using anything other than Joy A&B

In article <UoDe5.22343$[email hidden]>, Marc Collins <[email hidden]> wrote:

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>Thanks for confirming that is does not support split axis. It supports two >"joysticks," but that has little to do with split axis support. And, if the >game isn't programmed to permit gas and brake to be applied simultaneously, >and react properly to that kind of input, it isn't a sim. > >In 1996 we might have called it a sim. In 2000, no way. > >Marc.

Agreed. Hoping that the final version is somehow fixed. I hope someone at Microprose/Hasbro let Geoff out of his coding isolation cell sometime in the last 4 years and showed him some of the features we've come to expect as required in sims, such as support for split axis and axis not on Joystick 2. How the hell can you develop FF and not notice that most FF wheels have split axis support and that they need Axis Z and R... Anyhow, looking forward to next week when our Euro friends can confirm or deny whether the final version has the same problem. --John --

On Sun, 23 Jul 2000 14:35:32 GMT, "Marc Collins" <[email hidden]> wrote: >Thanks for confirming that is does not support split axis. It supports two >"joysticks," but that has little to do with split axis support. And, if the >game isn't programmed to permit gas and brake to be applied simultaneously, >and react properly to that kind of input, it isn't a sim. I don't see your point. It's perfectly possible with two sticks. You can use stick A X-axis for steering, stick B X-axis for acc and stick B Y-axis for brake. So you can apply acc and brake independently at the same time, and the game calculates and models both at the same time, just like GP2 did. The only problem for me is that it didn't recognize my pedals at all. I had to use keys for steering and the two stick A axes for acc/brake to confirm my above statement. Blaze

On Sun, 23 Jul 2000 06:55:30 GMT, [email hidden] wrote: >it happens when the cars take >a graphic change in the GP3 graphics engine. Yep, the sudden change in car detail and apparently car size(!) is most annoying. It's like the car makes a jump if you get closer, very distracting in tight situations, it totally ruins your estimation of the distance to the other car.

[email hidden] wrote:

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>I see lots of people here reporting that there is splt axis in GP3 >well it there sort of but it's also not there in another way, what GP3 >has is the same options as GP2 has but with a 2 more buttons for each >joystick, this is what you are able to pick from. > >Joy 1 A & B Axis Buttons 1-4 >Joy 2 A & B Axis Buttons 1-4 > >There is no optin for any other axis other than above so if you have a >wheel/pedal combo that uses RZ or RX or R as the 3rd axis so you have >seperate brake & thr then you are stuck in combined mode im affraid. >Also if you have any more buttons than the 4 on your wheel Gp3 wont >use them, I have a MS Wheel and to get the paddels to be used as >shifters I had to create a profile with SHIF & SPACE assigned to them, >the joystick menu in GP3 wouldnt let me use them.

Seems pretty strange, doesn't it? Especially considering that in the "Thanks & Acknowledgements" section of the readme.txt file, they thank Logitech, Guillemot, and Microsoft Hardware for "their help and support on this project." So, it would seem that Crammond and Co. are at least AWARE of the situation, even though they haven't (as yet) done anything about it.

Thanks for confirming that is does not support split axis. It supports two "joysticks," but that has little to do with split axis support. And, if the game isn't programmed to permit gas and brake to be applied simultaneously, and react properly to that kind of input, it isn't a sim. In 1996 we might have called it a sim. In 2000, no way. Marc. <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> I see lots of people here reporting that there is splt axis in GP3 > well it there sort of but it's also not there in another way, what GP3 > has is the same options as GP2 has but with a 2 more buttons for each > joystick, this is what you are able to pick from. > > Joy 1 A & B Axis Buttons 1-4 > Joy 2 A & B Axis Buttons 1-4 > > There is no optin for any other axis other than above so if you have a > wheel/pedal combo that uses RZ or RX or R as the 3rd axis so you have > seperate brake & thr then you are stuck in combined mode im affraid. > Also if you have any more buttons than the 4 on your wheel Gp3 wont > use them, I have a MS Wheel and to get the paddels to be used as > shifters I had to create a profile with SHIF & SPACE assigned to them, > the joystick menu in GP3 wouldnt let me use them. > > Ok other stuff about GP3 as tested on my rig. > > As for the graphics they is not much diffrence in looks at 1024x768 & > 800x600 in both 3d & softwear mode as far as I can tell, the only > things that is using the D3D acceleration in 3D hardwaer mode are the > cockpit wheel, grass texture, track texture,sky texture, other than > that everything else looks like bitmaps and you can really see this in > the cars ahead and in the mirrors, they are very flat and dont look 3d > at all, F1 2000 has far better car models and cockpit than GP3. And as > I have said before there is a certain time when the cars are floating > on the track as you get closer or futher away from them, this is both > seen ahead of you and in the mirrors, it happens when the cars take > a graphic change in the GP3 graphics engine. > > As for gameplay though GP3 is going to kick F1 2000 into touch as the > AI is like 200% better than F1 2000 and this is what it all about. > also the rain is very cool. > > > Im running a Celeron P366 O/C to 458 > V3 3000 > 128 meg SDRAM > Computer is running 98% resourse free. > > GP3 in 800x600 mode > textures on all in front except for kerbs & walls, mirrors have > everything off except track, kerbs, walls with no texture on. > > Occupancy levels at IMOLA are still way up on the first 2 corners > 170-230 but then drop to well below 100 as soon as the first lap is > done. To get the occupancy below 100 at all time I had to run in > 640x480. > > Im going to keep the wearz verion on my drive untill the game is > released in NZ on Aug 2nd and I see the reports in RAS on the full > retail version, if a few things havent been fixed in the full version > then I will delete the wearz version and not bother with GP3 and go > back to F1 2000 and wait for F1 2001. > > Things that would make me but it there fixed in the full retail > version > > Better Joysick/wheel support > Being able to hear other cars while in my own car > > Other than that it seems pretty complete. > Hotdog > > He he Flame away I dont really care, just offering you a small take on > the GP3 as I see it. hope it helps > > >

I see lots of people here reporting that there is splt axis in GP3 well it there sort of but it's also not there in another way, what GP3 has is the same options as GP2 has but with a 2 more buttons for each joystick, this is what you are able to pick from. Joy 1 A & B Axis Buttons 1-4 Joy 2 A & B Axis Buttons 1-4 There is no optin for any other axis other than above so if you have a wheel/pedal combo that uses RZ or RX or R as the 3rd axis so you have seperate brake & thr then you are stuck in combined mode im affraid. Also if you have any more buttons than the 4 on your wheel Gp3 wont use them, I have a MS Wheel and to get the paddels to be used as shifters I had to create a profile with SHIF & SPACE assigned to them, the joystick menu in GP3 wouldnt let me use them. Ok other stuff about GP3 as tested on my rig. As for the graphics they is not much diffrence in looks at 1024x768 & 800x600 in both 3d & softwear mode as far as I can tell, the only things that is using the D3D acceleration in 3D hardwaer mode are the cockpit wheel, grass texture, track texture,sky texture, other than that everything else looks like bitmaps and you can really see this in the cars ahead and in the mirrors, they are very flat and dont look 3d at all, F1 2000 has far better car models and cockpit than GP3. And as I have said before there is a certain time when the cars are floating on the track as you get closer or futher away from them, this is both seen ahead of you and in the mirrors, it happens when the cars take a graphic change in the GP3 graphics engine. As for gameplay though GP3 is going to kick F1 2000 into touch as the AI is like 200% better than F1 2000 and this is what it all about. also the rain is very cool. Im running a Celeron P366 O/C to 458 V3 3000 128 meg SDRAM Computer is running 98% resourse free. GP3 in 800x600 mode textures on all in front except for kerbs & walls, mirrors have everything off except track, kerbs, walls with no texture on. Occupancy levels at IMOLA are still way up on the first 2 corners 170-230 but then drop to well below 100 as soon as the first lap is done. To get the occupancy below 100 at all time I had to run in 640x480. Im going to keep the wearz verion on my drive untill the game is released in NZ on Aug 2nd and I see the reports in RAS on the full retail version, if a few things havent been fixed in the full version then I will delete the wearz version and not bother with GP3 and go back to F1 2000 and wait for F1 2001. Things that would make me but it there fixed in the full retail version Better Joysick/wheel support Being able to hear other cars while in my own car Other than that it seems pretty complete. Hotdog He he Flame away I dont really care, just offering you a small take on the GP3 as I see it. hope it helps

Thanks to you as well for confirming that is does not support split axis. It supports two "joysticks," but that has little to do with split axis support that is found on any popularly available FFB wheel today. No, I'm not going to buy two joysticks, add a second game port, blah, blah, blah. I have a USB FFB wheel that supports split axis. It is specially designed for racing games. Racing games that are properly designed support available hardware (especially a hardware design (split axis) that has been on the market for more than 2 years). Marc. "Jan Loebzien" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > On Sun, 23 Jul 2000 14:35:32 GMT, "Marc Collins" > <[email hidden]> wrote: > > >Thanks for confirming that is does not support split axis. It supportstwo > >"joysticks," but that has little to do with split axis support. And, ifthe > >game isn't programmed to permit gas and brake to be appliedsimultaneously,

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> >and react properly to that kind of input, it isn't a sim. > > I don't see your point. It's perfectly possible with two sticks. > You can use stick A X-axis for steering, stick B X-axis for acc and > stick B Y-axis for brake. So you can apply acc and brake independently > at the same time, and the game calculates and models both at the same > time, just like GP2 did. > > The only problem for me is that it didn't recognize my pedals at all. > I had to use keys for steering and the two stick A axes for acc/brake > to confirm my above statement. > > > Blaze

On Sun, 23 Jul 2000 19:52:42 +0200, Jan Loebzien <[email hidden]> wrote:

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>On Sun, 23 Jul 2000 14:35:32 GMT, "Marc Collins" ><[email hidden]> wrote: > >>Thanks for confirming that is does not support split axis. It supports two >>"joysticks," but that has little to do with split axis support. And, if the >>game isn't programmed to permit gas and brake to be applied simultaneously, >>and react properly to that kind of input, it isn't a sim. > >I don't see your point. It's perfectly possible with two sticks. >You can use stick A X-axis for steering, stick B X-axis for acc and >stick B Y-axis for brake. So you can apply acc and brake independently >at the same time, and the game calculates and models both at the same >time, just like GP2 did. > >The only problem for me is that it didn't recognize my pedals at all. >I had to use keys for steering and the two stick A axes for acc/brake >to confirm my above statement. > > >Blaze

To use Joystick B in GP3 you need to have a second joystick port, requiring a PDPI card or similar. If you plug your pedals in the second port, configure them in Windows as a 2 axis joystick then split axis works perfectly. We can only hope that whoever made this design decision has had their bum kicked because it is incompatible with the vast majority of controllers on the market. Oh, and that it's changed. Peter

Well, although GP3 should support it, I think logitech should make an option for turning the RZ axis into J2 X axis, because there were never any patches for GP2. On Tue, 25 Jul 2000 11:07:26 GMT, "Vintook" <[email hidden]> wrote:

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>I tried everything with my LWFF and nothing, You can only do combined >pedals. GP3 needs a serious patch for this. Making a game in todays market >that doesn't support 90% of the wheel market is moronic, I can't believe >they would let this game out the door like this but if the final is the same >then we know this warez copy is the final beta or even the final. > >Vintook

In article <[email hidden]>, Peter Holt <[email hidden]> writes:

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>To use Joystick B in GP3 you need to have a second joystick port, >requiring a PDPI card or similar. If you plug your pedals in the >second port, configure them in Windows as a 2 axis joystick then split >axis works perfectly. We can only hope that whoever made this design >decision has had their bum kicked because it is incompatible with the >vast majority of controllers on the market. Oh, and that it's >changed. > >Peter

Well, THAT sucks. You have to redo your PHYSICAL controller setup just for *one* game? It would be acceptable(maybe) if you just had to reconfigure in the control panel... Eldred -- Tiger Stadium R.I.P. 1912-1999 Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett GPL hcp. +69.95 Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

Having two joysticks is critical in having split axis, your normal game port provides two joysticks by itself, each with 2 buttons and 2 axi. So you have J1 X for steering, J1 Y for acceleration and J2 X (or Y) for braking, thereby being able to brake and accelerate at the same time. The reason a LWFF doesnt work split axis is because it assigns the brake to a Z axis on J1 (presumably), all they need to do is make an option to allow the brake to go on the J2 X (or Y) axis. (I would like to know if anyone has got the LWFF going in split axis though, it may be possible), I have only tried it with GP2 and thats what the problem is(GP2 not supporting Z axis). On Mon, 24 Jul 2000 15:05:05 GMT, "Marc Collins" <[email hidden]> wrote:

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>Thanks to you as well for confirming that is does not support split axis. >It supports two "joysticks," but that has little to do with split axis >support that is found on any popularly available FFB wheel today. > >No, I'm not going to buy two joysticks, add a second game port, blah, blah, >blah. I have a USB FFB wheel that supports split axis. It is specially >designed for racing games. Racing games that are properly designed support >available hardware (especially a hardware design (split axis) that has been >on the market for more than 2 years). > >Marc.

I tried everything with my LWFF and nothing, You can only do combined pedals. GP3 needs a serious patch for this. Making a game in todays market that doesn't support 90% of the wheel market is moronic, I can't believe they would let this game out the door like this but if the final is the same then we know this warez copy is the final beta or even the final. Vintook "clone" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> Having two joysticks is critical in having split axis, your normal > game port provides two joysticks by itself, each with 2 buttons and 2 > axi. So you have J1 X for steering, J1 Y for acceleration and J2 X (or > Y) for braking, thereby being able to brake and accelerate at the same > time. > > The reason a LWFF doesnt work split axis is because it assigns the > brake to a Z axis on J1 (presumably), all they need to do is make an > option to allow the brake to go on the J2 X (or Y) axis. > > (I would like to know if anyone has got the LWFF going in split axis > though, it may be possible), I have only tried it with GP2 and thats > what the problem is(GP2 not supporting Z axis). > > > On Mon, 24 Jul 2000 15:05:05 GMT, "Marc Collins" > <[email hidden]> wrote: > > >Thanks to you as well for confirming that is does not support split axis. > >It supports two "joysticks," but that has little to do with split axis > >support that is found on any popularly available FFB wheel today. > > > >No, I'm not going to buy two joysticks, add a second game port, blah,

blah, > >blah. I have a USB FFB wheel that supports split axis. It is specially > >designed for racing games. Racing games that are properly designedsupport > >available hardware (especially a hardware design (split axis) that hasbeen > >on the market for more than 2 years). > > > >Marc. >

clone <[email hidden]> wrote: >The reason a LWFF doesnt work split axis is because it assigns the >brake to a Z axis on J1 (presumably), all they need to do is make an >option to allow the brake to go on the J2 X (or Y) axis. Dear sir, Welcome to the 21st century. You will find we have cell phones, the Internet, many fine waterparks, and steering wheel systems with more than two axis. Please enjoy your stay! Joe McGinn _____________________ Radical Entertainment

"clone" <[email hidden]> wrote > Well, although GP3 should support it, I think logitech should make an > option for turning the RZ axis into J2 X axis Even then, it wouldn't work in GP3. J2 X and Y axis are not supported if they are plugged into the same port. You need a second Joystick installed on a different port to make it work (ex : USB + Midi port). This problem makes GP3 seriously flawed. Geoff just lives in the middle-age, it seems. And his ego is way to big for him to step on the public place and admit such thing. We all know he never interviews anybody, nor respond to the problem his software faces. -- -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> -- May the Downforce be with you... -- http://www.WeRace.net -- People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world.

In message <[email hidden]> clone <[email hidden]> wrote: > Having two joysticks is critical in having split axis, your normal > game port provides two joysticks by itself, each with 2 buttons and 2 > axi. So you have J1 X for steering, J1 Y for acceleration and J2 X (or > Y) for braking, thereby being able to brake and accelerate at the same > time. Agreed. > The reason a LWFF doesnt work split axis is because it assigns the > brake to a Z axis on J1 (presumably), all they need to do is make an > option to allow the brake to go on the J2 X (or Y) axis. Wrong. The problem is with Microprose - *they* need to alter GP3 so that it can use any axis, just like any other racing game since 1996. Having said that, it should be possible for Logitech to come up with some kind of software bodge... and I have more faith in them than I do with Microprose. :-/ > (I would like to know if anyone has got the LWFF going in split axis > though, it may be possible), I have only tried it with GP2 and thats > what the problem is(GP2 not supporting Z axis). I'm trying, but getting nowhere. :-( -- Richard. "Oh, I get by with a little help from my friends."

"ymenard" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:Fbmf5.28140$[email hidden]... > This problem makes GP3 seriously flawed. Geoff just lives in the > middle-age, it seems. And his ego is way to big for him to step on the > public place and admit such thing. We all know he never interviewsanybody, > nor respond to the problem his software faces. > Please show me an example of a major game developer that steps into a public place and admits that they live in the middle-ages. Do a search on the web for Geoff Crammond interview and you may be surprised to find quite a lot of hits. How do you know that GC won't rectify some of the shortcomings of GP3? I quote from one of his interviews: "Q. Has the size of the development team been increased for GP3? And which features of the game are you solely responsible for? A. The team's size has increased substantially - and that trend will continue through GP4, 5, 6 and 7, I expect. I'll always remain 100% responsible for the core simulation and game elements, however the new Microprose Motor Sport Team at Chipping Sodbury contributes a great deal to the overall product. This will mean that you can be expecting to see the GP Series every Season from now on. " Lawrence

Well, why wouldnt it be supported, USB is totally digital. I see no reason why they cant change 1RZ to 2RX. It would be like emulating two joysticks. On Tue, 25 Jul 2000 19:49:57 GMT, "ymenard" <[email hidden]> wrote:

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>Even then, it wouldn't work in GP3. J2 X and Y axis are not supported if >they are plugged into the same port. You need a second Joystick installed >on a different port to make it work (ex : USB + Midi port). > >This problem makes GP3 seriously flawed. Geoff just lives in the >middle-age, it seems. And his ego is way to big for him to step on the >public place and admit such thing. We all know he never interviews anybody, >nor respond to the problem his software faces.

GP3 is already gone from my PC. I still can't believe what I saw. Terrible graphics, controller setup and sound (no other cars but mine). I've also read that while in the pits you hear fake sounds of cars that are not there. GP3 is NOT a sim IMHO. Too bad because I was REALLY excited about this one. --David Cook In article <Fbmf5.28140$[email hidden]>, [email hidden] wrote...

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> "clone" <[email hidden]> wrote > > Well, although GP3 should support it, I think logitech should make an > > option for turning the RZ axis into J2 X axis > > Even then, it wouldn't work in GP3. J2 X and Y axis are not supported if > they are plugged into the same port. You need a second Joystick installed > on a different port to make it work (ex : USB + Midi port). > > This problem makes GP3 seriously flawed. Geoff just lives in the > middle-age, it seems. And his ego is way to big for him to step on the > public place and admit such thing. We all know he never interviews anybody, > nor respond to the problem his software faces.

"David L. Cook" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > GP3 is already gone from my PC. I still can't believe what I saw.Terrible > graphics, controller setup and sound (no other cars but mine). I've alsoread > that while in the pits you hear fake sounds of cars that are not there.GP3 is Oh yeah... I think that was in GP2 also. You supposedly heard the card go by along the main straight. -- [email hidden] > NOT a sim IMHO. Too bad because I was REALLY excited about this one.

On 25 Jul 2000 12:06:26 GMT, [email hidden] (EldredP) wrote: Couldn't agree more. The only good thing is that the controller set up in GPL is flexible enough that it can use the same configuration that GP3 requires. How much beta testing did they do if this problem wasn't picked up? Peter

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>In article <[email hidden]>, Peter Holt ><[email hidden]> writes: > >>To use Joystick B in GP3 you need to have a second joystick port, >>requiring a PDPI card or similar. If you plug your pedals in the >>second port, configure them in Windows as a 2 axis joystick then split >>axis works perfectly. We can only hope that whoever made this design >>decision has had their bum kicked because it is incompatible with the >>vast majority of controllers on the market. Oh, and that it's >>changed. >> >>Peter > >Well, THAT sucks. You have to redo your PHYSICAL controller setup just for >*one* game? It would be acceptable(maybe) if you just had to reconfigure in >the control panel... > >Eldred

You mean like Cart Precision Racing from 1997 which only had combined axis support? ;) -- Ian Parker "Ambition is a poor excuse for not having sense enough to be lazy." <email invalid due to spam> Richard Walker <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:3d3d8de349% > > The problem is with Microprose - *they* need to alter GP3 so that it can use > any axis, just like any other racing game since 1996. > > > > -- > Richard.

They're at Chipping Sodbury? That's 5 miles away from me! -- Colin Harris ColinHarris in N3/NL and VROC Bomber Racing: http://fullspeed.to/Bomber ICQ 25485061 , however the new > Microprose Motor Sport Team at Chipping Sodbury contributes a great deal > to the overall product. This will mean that you can be expecting to see > the GP Series every Season from now on. " > > Lawrence > >

In message <8ln5gh$4ou$[email hidden]> "Ian P" <[email hidden]> wrote:

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> Richard Walker <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:3d3d8de349% > > > The problem is with Microprose - *they* need to alter GP3 so that it can > > use any axis, just like any other racing game since 1996. > > You mean like Cart Precision Racing from 1997 which only had combined axis > support? ;)

Ah, but CPR isn't a 'racing game' - it's just a pile of pants! ;-) -- Richard. "Bang bang Maxwell's silver hammer made sure that she was dead."

Ok, you got me on that one !! :) -- Ian Parker "Ambition is a poor excuse for not having sense enough to be lazy." <email invalid due to spam> Richard Walker <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:bce962e449%[email hidden]... > In message <8ln5gh$4ou$[email hidden]> "Ian P" <[email hidden]> > wrote: > > > Richard Walker <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:3d3d8de349% > > > > > The problem is with Microprose - *they* need to alter GP3 so that it can > > > use any axis, just like any other racing game since 1996. > > > > You mean like Cart Precision Racing from 1997 which only had combined axis > > support? ;) > > Ah, but CPR isn't a 'racing game' - it's just a pile of pants! ;-) > > > -- > Richard. > > "Bang bang Maxwell's silver hammer made sure that she was dead."

On Thu, 27 Jul 2000 12:07:10 +0100, "Ian P" <[email hidden]> wrote: >Ok, you got me on that one !! :) > > Richard Walker <[email hidden]> wrote in messagenews:3d3d8de349% > > > > > The problem is with Microprose - *they* need to alter GP3 so that itcan > > > use any axis, just like any other racing game since 1996. > > > > You mean like Cart Precision Racing from 1997 which only had combinedaxis > > support? ;) I reinstalled GP2 a couple of months ago, and got it working with 3 axes. That worked somehow?! Now with GP3 I can't do it anymore. The game has not advanced much. Though it is fun to drive. BUT: my force feedback is ALWAYS pushing my wheel to the left!! So if I make a right turn, it is ok, but if I make a left turn, it pushes me even further! That's silly, I mean, it's crap, it's grrrrr, damn that Crammond trying to do all that stuff just by himself. That's undoable these days, and he's proven it. :( (I'm using an MSFF wheel btw) Ruud van Gaal, GPL Rank +53.53 MarketGraph / MachTech: http://www.marketgraph.nl Art: http://www.marketgraph.nl/gallery

Go down and smack 'em all in the face then for the dodgy FF wheel support. "Colin Harris" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:29Jf5.1053$[email hidden]...

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> They're at Chipping Sodbury? That's 5 miles away from me! > > -- > > Colin Harris > ColinHarris in N3/NL and VROC > > Bomber Racing: http://fullspeed.to/Bomber > ICQ 25485061 > > , however the new > > Microprose Motor Sport Team at Chipping Sodbury contributes a great deal > > to the overall product. This will mean that you can be expecting to see > > the GP Series every Season from now on. " > > > > Lawrence > > > > > >