Re: GP3 - Some positive comments ..

Pretty much my experience the weather effects are so deep. Its not just a case of its wet or its dry its totally realistic the rain can start on one side of the track, it gets a little damp the rain stops you come in for your pit stop what do you do ? what do you do ?? Grooves ? It's not raining that hard - But the track is getting wetter the weather forcast said a 40% chance of light rain half an hour into the race and 10% chance of medium rain Wets ? ? It's not raining that hard - But the track is getting wetter the weather forcast said a 40% chance of light rain half an hour into the race and 10% chance of medium rain This feature really advances racing sims. I've not felt like this racing any other game. The level of decision making just changed in sims. I believe now that GPL is the best car simulator but GP3 is the best racing simulator. Regards Mike On Sun, 23 Jul 2000 12:40:04 -0500, rrevved <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted text (107 lines)

> >I may d/l this thing and if it is as good as it sounds, I will place my order! > >http://forums.simracingnews.com/ubb/Forum5/HTML/000492.html > >jeda >Top Driver >Posts: 113 >Registered: Mar 2000 >posted July 23, 2000 13:37 >---------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Hi all, > >I just finished my first 100% race distance Grand Prix at Spa. I had >raced a few quickrace before, but never longer than about 10 laps. I >race without using driving aids, but have set the difficulty level to >Amateur. I also use the default carsetup, which isnt that bad for Spa. > >The weather was looking good, all friday and saturday session were >dry, I did quite well and qualified on pole (rember: amateur level). >During warmup I did some long runs to see how the tyrewear was, but >1/2 hour is very short to do some real testing. After the warmup >session I decided to go for a two stopstrategy because I was about two >sec faster than the rest of the field. > >Before the race I cheked the weather-report screen: Rain was expected! >There was an 80% change of rain after about 20 minutes. I thought, >well, will see about that later! This was my first big mistake! > >I had to much wheelspin at the start and lost 1 position to Mika, but >was able to overtake him the next lap at La Source hairpin. After >that, everything looked good for me, I was about 1,5 secs a lap faster >than Mika and was starting to create a gap. I was hoping that the gap >would be about 15-20 sec when I had to make my first planned stop at >lap 15. > >But than things started to look bad :-( The clouds were getting darker >and at lap 11 it started to rain. BUT it only rained at the back of >the track, s/f was completely dry! The gap I had to Mika was about 12 >sec at that point and it started to decrease with about 1 sec a lap! > >The weather was also getting worse at the back part of the track, at >s/f it was still sunny. At lap 14 my pitstop light flashed on at my >dash. I really started to panic, my gap was decreasing, the weather >looked unpredictable and my setup was terrible on the wet parts of the >track. I than hit the enter key because I wanted to wait another lap >to see what the wheater was doing (I had still fuel for about 3 laps). >As the weather was getting worse and worse at the back part of the >track, so was my gap, only 5 secs left. > >In lap 18 I had to pit because I hadnt enough fuel for another lap. >Because only the half of the track was wet I decided to cgange to >intermediates. Again, a bad choice. When I left the pit I was in 3rd >position, and after 3 laps I realised my mistake: It was starting to >rain all over the track. Immediatly a lot of AI cars went to the pit. >Because I had just made my stop, I wouldnt want to lose another 30sec >witn another stop to get wettyres (obviously another mistake). After >strugling for about another 8 laps (i didnt lose any positions, but I >wasnt quicker than Schumi who was 2nd) it stopped raining. My >intermediate tyres started to work :-). > >In lap 28 a dry line showed up and with only 2 laps to go for my >second stop I wasnt sure what to do. Once again I decide to stay out >as long as possible. Then I remembered something from real F1 races: >Cooling your tyres by driving through wet spots on the track. It tried >it on the straights and saw in my mirrors the waterspray of my tyres, >which wasnt there when I drove on the dry raceline. Almost immediately >my laptimes improved! I was so exited that I almost forgot about my >second pitstop. > >At my second stop I decided to go back to normal, dry weather tyres. >From that point everything started to look better. Schumi had a lead >of 23sec and Irvine was about 6sec behind me. > >In lap 37 I went wide at Les Combes and got of the dryline in the wet. >I lost all grip and immediately spun off the track! Irvine passed me >and when I was back on the track he had al lead of 7sec. > >But in the dry I was a lot faster and with only 3 laps to go I was >able to pass him. > >Because I was so exited I spun in the last lap and Irvine passed me >again :-( > >I finished 4th, Mika 1st and Schumi 2nd. > >After the race I was think about what went wrong: > >1. I had the wrong car setup. After the weather predictions I should >have opted for an intermediate setup. > >2. I had not flexibilty in my stategy at all, next race I will try to >take enough fuel for at least 50% race distance. > >3. I waited too long to change to intermediates, or I had to wait >longer and change to wets. > >I really enjoyed this race, it was my best race ever (including VROC >GPL races which are great too). I think GP3 is the first real complete >F1 simulator, and not just a race simulator as GPL is. Being able do >do some quicklaps is not enough to be succesfull in GP3. You really >have to think about your strategy! This is what I miss in GPL and >other sims. > >Cheers, >JeDa

Thanks for your view. It was nice to hear someone have an idea what a game is supposed to have GAMEPLAY !!! this is where you enjoy yourself not spend your time looking around at graphics ( which according to all the pics ive seen are really good anyway ) . I shall certainley be picking my copy up on Friday and i wont be seen for weeks goodbye life !!!

Well, I'm still in love with GP3!! I wrote this report after my first 100% race distance which I drove at amateur level using the default setup. Today, I did some more testing and created a my first racestup for Spa (boy, I love that track). With a car with fuel for 25 laps I was able to do laps of low 1.52's. Still not that good, but I'm improving. I also promoted myself to semi-pro :-) BTW, after some testing with different setups I was able to drift the cars through some (slow, 2nd gear) corners, so the cars are not always on rails :-) Only in fast corners. Imho the physics are not bad at all. Actually, after some experimenting I'm still amazed at the physics, I think they really simulate how it must be driving a F1 car. You can lock your wheels, have wheelspin, drift the car, catch an oversteering car etc etc. With my new setup I then started a new 100% race, qualified first (again). Made a bad start (again) and was 3rd after the fisrt corner. Schumi was first, Irvine 2nd and Mika 4th. At my first 100% race I was a lot faster than the AI (amateur level), but now I had a hard time to pass Irvine. Actually, I couldnt get pass him at all! The AI is great, they really try to block you. Overtaking is definately as difficult as in real F1 races. Unfortunately at lap 8 I had an engine problem and had to quit the race (that's racing....). Cheers, JeDa

In article <[email hidden]>, rrevved <[email hidden]> writes: >Because I was so exited I spun in the last lap and Irvine passed me >again :-( > >I finished 4th, Mika 1st and Schumi 2nd. > Pretty good race report! I can never remember enough details to do those...but they're fun to read. Eldred -- Tiger Stadium R.I.P. 1912-1999 Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett GPL hcp. +69.95 Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

JeDa <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:laJe5.402$[email hidden]... > BTW, after some testing with different setups I was able to drift the cars > through some (slow, 2nd gear) corners, so the cars are not always on rails > :-) Only in fast corners. Imho the physics are not bad at all. sounds very reasonable. The aerodynamics of a modern F1-car generate more downforce at higher speeds. Therefore, the car will feel loose at the start and in slow corners and feel 'like on rails'at high speed. Actually, > after some experimenting I'm still amazed at the physics, I think they > really simulate how it must be driving a F1 car. You can lock your wheels, > have wheelspin, drift the car, catch an oversteering car etc etc. >

> Pretty good race report! Thanks, I really like this sim, I will try to make another race report from my next GP.

Quoted text (12 lines)

> >With my new setup I then started a new 100% race, qualified first (again). >Made a bad start (again) and was 3rd after the fisrt corner. Schumi was >first, Irvine 2nd and Mika 4th. At my first 100% race I was a lot faster >than the AI (amateur level), but now I had a hard time to pass Irvine. >Actually, I couldnt get pass him at all! The AI is great, they really try to >block you. Overtaking is definately as difficult as in real F1 races. >Unfortunately at lap 8 I had an engine problem and had to quit the race >(that's racing....). > >Cheers, >JeDa

Jeda, did you save the game before you started the race? If so, please reload the saved game, and this time be really really careful with the engine not to overrev it and such. Please tell us about your results. I predict you will have the exact same engine problem on lap eight, at the exact same spot you had it previously. That's not "racing", that's shoddy programming, and unacceptable in a product claiming to be a "simulation". Bye for now, Uwe -- Uwe Schuerkamp //////////////////////////// http://www.schuerkamp.de/ Herford, Germany \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ (52.0N/8.5E) Ever wondered what's wrong with the world? http://bnetwork.com/ PGP Fingerprint: 2E 13 20 22 9A 3F 63 7F 67 6F E9 B1 A8 36 A4 61

In article <[email hidden]>, Ronald Stoehr <[email hidden]> writes:

Quoted text (18 lines)

>Uwe Schuerkamp wrote: >> >snip >> did you save the game before you started the race? If so, >> please reload the saved game, and this time be really really >> careful with the engine not to overrev it and such. Please tell >> us about your results. I predict you will have the exact same >> engine problem on lap eight, at the exact same spot you had it >> previously. >> >> That's not "racing", that's shoddy programming, and >> unacceptable in a product claiming to be a "simulation". > >Why would that be shoddy?? You're able to SAVE the race, >that's okay for a sim, but not allowing you to get around a >blown up engine by reshuffling the "random generator for >engine failure" is unworthy of a sim? Geez! >

At the risk of stating the obvious, maybe it's done so you can't save-cheat your way to a race victory....? Eldred -- Tiger Stadium R.I.P. 1912-1999 Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett GPL hcp. +69.95 Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

Maybe, but, IMO, it's not up to the developer to mistrust his customer in this respect. One of the few things which used to grate me with Keammer sims, eventhough I'm not personally affected by it. The trouble with the GP2(/GP3 ?) implementation is the roll of the dice happens as you start a race weekend, you can practise and qualify your butt off and be real carefull in the race, your engine will blow X-amount of time into the race, end of story. Potentially a lot of wasted effort for something that only seemingly ehances the realism. Jan. =--- EldredP wrote... > <snip> > At the risk of stating the obvious, maybe it's done so you can'tsave-cheat > your way to a race victory....? > > Eldred > --

"Ronald Stoehr" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

Quoted text (19 lines)

> Uwe Schuerkamp wrote: > > > snip > > did you save the game before you started the race? If so, > > please reload the saved game, and this time be really really > > careful with the engine not to overrev it and such. Please tell > > us about your results. I predict you will have the exact same > > engine problem on lap eight, at the exact same spot you had it > > previously. > > > > That's not "racing", that's shoddy programming, and > > unacceptable in a product claiming to be a "simulation". > > Why would that be shoddy?? You're able to SAVE the race, > that's okay for a sim, but not allowing you to get around a > blown up engine by reshuffling the "random generator for > engine failure" is unworthy of a sim? Geez! > > --

I would agree that it would be bad to have the "random generator" reset for truly random acts, like a wing failure or a bad wheel bearing, but in a true simulation it would be nice if your treatment of the engine had something to do with the blowup or a dropped gear. Then again, it seems with the race engines nowadays, failures are more a case of a roll of the dice and are not necessarily related to the driver's skill, but more how well they were rebuilt. I can live with it either way. I have had engines go bang in GPL no matter how gently I drive. More important to me for the "racing experience" would be a good calculation of fuel usage as a function of driving style. Stephen

Uwe Schuerkamp wrote: > snip

Quoted text (9 lines)

> did you save the game before you started the race? If so, > please reload the saved game, and this time be really really > careful with the engine not to overrev it and such. Please tell > us about your results. I predict you will have the exact same > engine problem on lap eight, at the exact same spot you had it > previously. > > That's not "racing", that's shoddy programming, and > unacceptable in a product claiming to be a "simulation".

Why would that be shoddy?? You're able to SAVE the race, that's okay for a sim, but not allowing you to get around a blown up engine by reshuffling the "random generator for engine failure" is unworthy of a sim? Geez! -- l8er ronny Your mouse has moved. Windows must be restarted for the change to take effect. Reboot now? |\ _,,,---,,_ I want to die like my Grandfather, ZZZzz /,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,_ in his sleep. |,4- ) )-,_. ,\ ( `'-' Not like the people in his car, '---''(_/--' `-'\_) screaming their heads off!

Jan Verschueren wrote: > > I resent the failures "only" being random.... see Uwe's post. I don't select > breakdowns in any sim where they're implemented like that. Nobody defended the missing feature of penalizing the misshandling of the car (overrevving, locking wheels). But some engines run hundreds of miles, some blow up leaving the pits. That's real, that's happening. And you shouldn't be able to get around a blown engine by just reloading the saved game, but by switching of "random failures". -- l8er ronny Your mouse has moved. Windows must be restarted for the change to take effect. Reboot now? |\ _,,,---,,_ I want to die like my Grandfather, ZZZzz /,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,_ in his sleep. |,4- ) )-,_. ,\ ( `'-' Not like the people in his car, '---''(_/--' `-'\_) screaming their heads off!

Uwe Schuerkamp wrote: > snip > > Yep, it is. Not because reloading a saved game is "unworthy" > of a sim in the first place, but because I strongly doubt that > even tyre wear is modelled correctly. As another poster pointed > out, the way you treat the car should affect the outcome of the I agree with the tyre wear. Lots of people were intentionally locking up the brakes before every corner without penalty. Of course, that's something completely different than what I responded to, isn't it? -- l8er ronny Your mouse has moved. Windows must be restarted for the change to take effect. Reboot now? |\ _,,,---,,_ I want to die like my Grandfather, ZZZzz /,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,_ in his sleep. |,4- ) )-,_. ,\ ( `'-' Not like the people in his car, '---''(_/--' `-'\_) screaming their heads off!

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] (Uwe Schuerkamp) writes:

Quoted text (14 lines)

>Yep, it is. Not because reloading a saved game is "unworthy" >of a sim in the first place, but because I strongly doubt that >even tyre wear is modelled correctly. As another poster pointed >out, the way you treat the car should affect the outcome of the >race, not just a freaking number pulled from /dev/random once >the race starts (and even before that for that matter, try >reloading a pre race practise, you'll get the same effect). > >How often have you heard post race interviews where drivers >stated "I was trying to conserve fuel / be easy on the engine / >save the tyres"? Well, I'm afraid it won't make a fscking >difference in GP3, JLGP2. Yes, for me that's shoddy >programming. >

If everything that ever broke on a car was due to abuse/driver error, I'd agree with you. However, there's no way that a breakdown on grid, or on the pace lap could even be *prevented*. Some $0.75 part breaks thru no one's fault, and your day is over. Eldred -- Tiger Stadium R.I.P. 1912-1999 Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett GPL hcp. +69.95 Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

I resent the failures "only" being random.... see Uwe's post. I don't select breakdowns in any sim where they're implemented like that. Jan. =--- EldredP wrote...

Quoted text (11 lines)

> <snip> > That would be the case ANY time you select the 'player > breakdowns' option. There's a random chance SOMETHING > would go wrong. The only way to avoid this would be > not to select it... The same thing happens in real life. > Someone can lead the lap charts in every practice session, > get pole position by setting a track record, and break > on the pace lap. What's the difference? Shit happens, > unfortunately... > > Eldred

In article <[email hidden]>, "Jan Verschueren" <[email hidden]> writes:

Quoted text (19 lines)

>Maybe, but, IMO, it's not up to the developer to mistrust his customer in >this respect. One of the few things which used to grate me with Keammer >sims, eventhough I'm not personally affected by it. > >The trouble with the GP2(/GP3 ?) implementation is the roll of the dice >happens as you start a race weekend, you can practise and qualify your butt >off and be real carefull in the race, your engine will blow X-amount of time >into the race, end of story. Potentially a lot of wasted effort for >something that only seemingly ehances the realism. > >Jan. >=--- >EldredP wrote... >> <snip> >> At the risk of stating the obvious, maybe it's done so you can't >save-cheat >> your way to a race victory....? >> >> Eldred

That would be the case ANY time you select the 'player breakdowns' option. There's a random chance SOMETHING would go wrong. The only way to avoid this would be not to select it... The same thing happens in real life. Someone can lead the lap charts in every practice session, get pole position by setting a track record, and break on the pace lap. What's the difference? Shit happens, unfortunately... Eldred -- Tiger Stadium R.I.P. 1912-1999 Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett GPL hcp. +69.95 Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

On Tue, 25 Jul 2000 02:12:50 +0200, Ronald Stoehr <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted text (10 lines)

>Uwe Schuerkamp wrote: >> >snip >Why would that be shoddy?? You're able to SAVE the race, >that's okay for a sim, but not allowing you to get around a >blown up engine by reshuffling the "random generator for >engine failure" is unworthy of a sim? Geez! >

Yep, it is. Not because reloading a saved game is "unworthy" of a sim in the first place, but because I strongly doubt that even tyre wear is modelled correctly. As another poster pointed out, the way you treat the car should affect the outcome of the race, not just a freaking number pulled from /dev/random once the race starts (and even before that for that matter, try reloading a pre race practise, you'll get the same effect). How often have you heard post race interviews where drivers stated "I was trying to conserve fuel / be easy on the engine / save the tyres"? Well, I'm afraid it won't make a fscking difference in GP3, JLGP2. Yes, for me that's shoddy programming. Regards, Uwe -- Uwe Schuerkamp //////////////////////////// http://www.schuerkamp.de/ Herford, Germany \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ (52.0N/8.5E) Ever wondered what's wrong with the world? http://bnetwork.com/ PGP Fingerprint: 2E 13 20 22 9A 3F 63 7F 67 6F E9 B1 A8 36 A4 61

On Tue, 25 Jul 2000 19:51:45 +0200, [email hidden] (Uwe Schuerkamp) wrote:

Quoted text (7 lines)

>Yep, it is. Not because reloading a saved game is "unworthy" >of a sim in the first place, but because I strongly doubt that >even tyre wear is modelled correctly. As another poster pointed >out, the way you treat the car should affect the outcome of the >race, not just a freaking number pulled from /dev/random once >the race starts (and even before that for that matter, try >reloading a pre race practise, you'll get the same effect).

You mean that BEFORE a race starts, GP3 allready determines where and when you will have an engine failure, no matter how carefull you drive? Was this also the case in GP2? I simply can't believe this is true... Andre

Quoted text (17 lines)

>How often have you heard post race interviews where drivers >stated "I was trying to conserve fuel / be easy on the engine / >save the tyres"? Well, I'm afraid it won't make a fscking >difference in GP3, JLGP2. Yes, for me that's shoddy >programming. > >Regards, > >Uwe > > > >-- >Uwe Schuerkamp //////////////////////////// http://www.schuerkamp.de/ >Herford, Germany \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ (52.0N/8.5E) >Ever wondered what's wrong with the world? http://bnetwork.com/ >PGP Fingerprint: 2E 13 20 22 9A 3F 63 7F 67 6F E9 B1 A8 36 A4 61

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] says... > You mean that BEFORE a race starts, GP3 allready determines where and > when you will have an engine failure, no matter how carefull you > drive? Was this also the case in GP2? > I simply can't believe this is true... I guess it depends on how you look at it, in some respect this can be somewhat realistic. Components don't fail due to abuse alone. There are some components that will just fail for the sake of failing. Think of a worn rubber seal that may have been overlooked (for example) failing, given the same wear and tear on the motor, you'd reasonably expect it to fail at a given point. Consider that same failure inherit in the motor during a restore game. Now, if it modelled this failure and increased its likelyhood of earlier failure due to abuse, I'd be impressed. Is this so? I guess it all depends on how you look at it. I'd suggest that not all retirements in F1 have been due to abuse of the car. Cheers, Rod.

In article <[email hidden]>, Uncle Fester <[email hidden]> writes:

Quoted text (14 lines)

>EldredP wrote: >> >> If everything that ever broke on a car was due to abuse/driver error, I'd >agree >> with you. However, there's no way that a breakdown on grid, or on the pace >lap >> could even be *prevented*. Some $0.75 part breaks thru no one's fault, and >> your day is over. >> > > >Or from over-enthusiastic driving during qualifying and/or practice >taking it's toll on the parts. >

Hadn't thought of THAT. As much as I play sims, I'm in the mindset of, it's a new car every session...<g> Eldred -- Tiger Stadium R.I.P. 1912-1999 Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett GPL hcp. +69.95 Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

"Jan Verschueren" <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted text (9 lines)

>Maybe, but, IMO, it's not up to the developer to mistrust his customer in >this respect. One of the few things which used to grate me with Keammer >sims, eventhough I'm not personally affected by it. > >The trouble with the GP2(/GP3 ?) implementation is the roll of the dice >happens as you start a race weekend, you can practise and qualify your butt >off and be real carefull in the race, your engine will blow X-amount of time >into the race, end of story. Potentially a lot of wasted effort for >something that only seemingly ehances the realism.

And what happens in real life? Right: EXACTLY the same. There you have your realism. JoH ------- The best way to accelerate a Mac is 9.81 m/s2 -------- --------------------------------------------------------------

EldredP wrote: > > If everything that ever broke on a car was due to abuse/driver error, I'd agree > with you. However, there's no way that a breakdown on grid, or on the pace lap > could even be *prevented*. Some $0.75 part breaks thru no one's fault, and > your day is over. > Or from over-enthusiastic driving during qualifying and/or practice taking it's toll on the parts. Chuck

On Tue, 25 Jul 2000 21:11:39 +0200, "Jan Verschueren" <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted text (10 lines)

>Maybe, but, IMO, it's not up to the developer to mistrust his customer in >this respect. One of the few things which used to grate me with Keammer >sims, eventhough I'm not personally affected by it. > >The trouble with the GP2(/GP3 ?) implementation is the roll of the dice >happens as you start a race weekend, you can practise and qualify your butt >off and be real carefull in the race, your engine will blow X-amount of time >into the race, end of story. Potentially a lot of wasted effort for >something that only seemingly ehances the realism. >

Then switch the damage off if it annoys you THAT much .... Cheers.....Ken

> > You mean that BEFORE a race starts, GP3 allready determines where and > > when you will have an engine failure, no matter how carefull you > > drive? Was this also the case in GP2? > > I simply can't believe this is true... Yes, GP2 did this too. I once had a very exciting race at Spa finish early because of a loose wheel. Loaded a savegame from the beginning of the race, and suffered the same loose wheel in the exact same lap. These failures are not determined BEFORE the race, but AT THE START. If you save in the weekend-screen before the race, new failures will happen. Somewhere in the code for GP2 there was a reliability-multiplyer for all teams, so that Minardi's broke down often, and Willams almost never, and I assume this will also be the case for GP3. (not tested)