Re: The state of the race sim world going into GP3 week

>Before I begin Do you think that before you begin next time you could fix the clock on your computer? :-) -- Cheers! Graeme Nash

If RS3 is coming out so soon, how come we haven't seen any screenshots of it. I sure hope they arent keeping it as much of a secret as 3D Realms is doing with Duke Nukem Forever. Brian L_NiN0 <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:iQJe5.74436$[email hidden]... > > Sometime in September 2000 - RS3 > >

In article <8lfk2h$fs0$[email hidden]>, "Chris Wright" <[email hidden]> wrote: <LIBERAL SNIP> I agree with you on most points, Chris, and I applaud you for such a well thought-out post, but I already see the potential for GP3 to blind people to what else is out there, in much the same way that GPL has made many of us blind around here for the past couple of years. > I confidently predict that by this time next week the race sim worldwill be > a more enriched place than it has ever been before, because we areall about > to own something that doesn't happen every year - A GAME THAT MOVESOUR > HOBBY FORWARD - Yes, GP3 stands to move the hobby forward, but that's happened SEVERAL times in the past couple of years. Witness some recent examples that have enriched our genre greatly: Viper Racing -- brought us the first good implementation of a career mode. Grand Prix Legends -- the most astoundingly-complete physics model to date. Driver -- introduced a successful storyline-based element to the driving/racing genre (Interstate '76 did this nicely, too, but cars, combat, and weapons just don't sit well with me). Dirt Track Racing -- brought us the first truly DEEP implementation of a career mode, spanning several different series and car types. Need For Speed: Porsche Unleashed -- featured a completely unique implementation of a career mode (Factory Driver mode), plus an astounding "history of the marque" time-based career mode that let you explore the evolution of Porsche cars from the beginning to the present (Evolution mode). These are just a few shining examples that often don't receive their due around these parts. I think that the level of detail with weather conditions alone in GP3 will serve as a benchmark for future sims, and I applaud that -- maybe the time spent in development was time well- spent, and perhaps the similarities between GP2 and GP3 are intentional, rather than the result of laziness. Familiar interfaces help make a game more accessible, and the one thing that put a lot of potential players off with GPL was its almost total lack of accessibility for the beginner. Maybe Mr. Crammond is on the right track with GP3. If so, GP3 could help usher in a true golden age for us sim fans. I hope that's the case, but while we're all busy fawning over things like GPL and GP3, let's not forget to look around occasionally to see what else is happening in the realm of our genre -- you might just be surprised at what you find! -- JB Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy.

You've been watching too much Babylon 5... :)

Fix your clock.

Well sed sir. From when I started long ago with Chequered Flag, Pitstop II and Revs to this fridays release of GP3...its been a long haul and more years than I like to think of. Had ups - GP1/2, GPL, F12000 had downs - Toca, JHerbert GP, Le Mans...but there's been one constant. Its been a blast....and all these years later I'm still playing 3D Deathchase via a Spectrum emulator. Ah..memories. Now where did I put my hanky...sniff. Ian. "Chris Wright" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:8lfk2h$fs0$[email hidden]... > Before I begin, let me say that my comments below totally ignore thethings > I have read by those who have downloaded the warez version of GP3 - quite > frankly if people are prepared to utlilise someone else's intellectual > property before paying a penny, why should we trust anything they tell us? > > This is a very important week for the whole race sim community. Therelease > of GP3 is the best hope we have ever had of a really good modern FormulaOne > simulation in the 3D card age. Geoff Crammond's genius essentially created > the race sim genre, so it is not unreasonable to expect that the legendwill

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> continue in just five days time (can you believe it's so near!). > > Everyone has their wish list for what they would like to see in GP3. I > certainly have mine which I already know will not be fully answered (i.e. > safety car/proper pit penalty stops). However my main hope for the title > will almost certainly be fulfilled, i.e. that the game will in some way, > shape or form move the race sim genre a few notches forward. This hasn't > happened in a significant fashion since the 1998 (!) launch of Grand Prix > Legends. > > Having already seen avi files and screenies of the wet weather > implementation, I think I can safely say, without yet having turned a

wheel > in anger, that with this innovation alone, a new standard for realism has > been set. No-one has ever got this right in a sim yet, so GP3 will have > moved the goalposts in this area at least. > > While it is natural in the pre-release phase for everyone to comment onthe > visual aspects of the game, what we will not know for another few days is > how the gameplay has benefited from four years of development. Apparently > this has been one of the main focus areas during development, inparticular > AI characteristics over a long race. Again I am certain that we can look > forward to a new benchmark here as well. > > One of the main enjoyments with GPL is the tactile nature of the physics > model. GP3 will always struggle to match this same feel as todays carshave > an "on-rails" handling characteristic, in comparison to thelo-tech/hi-grunt > 1967 version of F1. In this sense accuracy will always count against it - > old grand prix drivers often comment how wonderful their cars were to > drive - you don't tend to get the same level of enthusiasm from todaysbreed > over their hi-tech mounts! In other words, we are likely to react to the > physics model in the same way as, say, Chris Amon would if he could drivea

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> few laps at Spa in his '67 Ferrari and then jump straight into the 2000 > model. > > What I am trying to say here is that I think most of us are in this hobby > for the long stretch. We certainly get short changed too often by big name > developers who promise much and deliver an arcade driving experience, so > let's go into GP3 week in the sure fire knowledge that accuracy has been

the > aim of the development team, just as in GP1 and 2. > > I confidently predict that by this time next week the race sim world willbe > a more enriched place than it has ever been before, because we are allabout

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> to own something that doesn't happen every year - A GAME THAT MOVES OUR > HOBBY FORWARD - > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

LOL, this is so sad. Chris Wright wrote: "The release of GP3 is the best hope we have ever had of a really good modern Formula One simulation in the 3D card age."

"Chris Wright" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:8lfk2h$fs0$[email hidden]... > Before I begin, let me say that my comments below totally ignore the things > I have read by those who have downloaded the warez version of GP3 - quite > frankly if people are prepared to utlilise someone else's intellectual > property before paying a penny, why should we trust anything they tell us? > I have no problems with that because they know what the game might look or feel like. Besides, there is no demo. Folks in the US may be in a better position since the game won't be available until 8/00. So, we can find out what's up with this game before buying it. > This is a very important week for the whole race sim community. The release > of GP3 is the best hope we have ever had of a really good modern Formula One > simulation in the 3D card age. Geoff Crammond's genius essentially created > the race sim genre, so it is not unreasonable to expect that the legend will > continue in just five days time (can you believe it's so near!). So what he himself is so hyped too?

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> > Everyone has their wish list for what they would like to see in GP3. I > certainly have mine which I already know will not be fully answered (i.e. > safety car/proper pit penalty stops). However my main hope for the title > will almost certainly be fulfilled, i.e. that the game will in some way, > shape or form move the race sim genre a few notches forward. This hasn't > happened in a significant fashion since the 1998 (!) launch of Grand Prix > Legends. >

I have V5 and a PIII550E at 814 MHz and I want to see GOOD graphics, not some cheap 3D imitations. Physic? I don't know since I have never driven a F1 car before nor to have driven 200 mph. > Having already seen avi files and screenies of the wet weather > implementation, I think I can safely say, without yet having turned a wheel > in anger, that with this innovation alone, a new standard for realism has > been set. No-one has ever got this right in a sim yet, so GP3 will have > moved the goalposts in this area at least. Hey man, not everyone loves to race in the rain.

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> > While it is natural in the pre-release phase for everyone to comment on the > visual aspects of the game, what we will not know for another few days is > how the gameplay has benefited from four years of development. Apparently > this has been one of the main focus areas during development, in particular > AI characteristics over a long race. Again I am certain that we can look > forward to a new benchmark here as well. > > One of the main enjoyments with GPL is the tactile nature of the physics > model. GP3 will always struggle to match this same feel as todays cars have > an "on-rails" handling characteristic, in comparison to the lo-tech/hi-grunt > 1967 version of F1. In this sense accuracy will always count against it - > old grand prix drivers often comment how wonderful their cars were to > drive - you don't tend to get the same level of enthusiasm from todays breed > over their hi-tech mounts! In other words, we are likely to react to the > physics model in the same way as, say, Chris Amon would if he could drive a > few laps at Spa in his '67 Ferrari and then jump straight into the 2000 > model.

Not just the physic is realistic in GPL. The graphics are fine, at least on a V5. The game does not suffer from mipmapping problem as in F12000. Cars in front of you look very clear, not just when they are up-close. The graphics in the game has a 60s feel to it.

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> > What I am trying to say here is that I think most of us are in this hobby > for the long stretch. We certainly get short changed too often by big name > developers who promise much and deliver an arcade driving experience, so > let's go into GP3 week in the sure fire knowledge that accuracy has been the > aim of the development team, just as in GP1 and 2. > > I confidently predict that by this time next week the race sim world will be > a more enriched place than it has ever been before, because we are all about > to own something that doesn't happen every year - A GAME THAT MOVES OUR > HOBBY FORWARD - > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

This is the biggest pile of shit I have had the pleasure to read in quite some time... "Chris Wright" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:8lfk2h$fs0$[email hidden]... > Before I begin, let me say that my comments below totally ignore thethings > I have read by those who have downloaded the warez version of GP3 - quite > frankly if people are prepared to utlilise someone else's intellectual > property before paying a penny, why should we trust anything they tell us? That is almost as bad as repackaging some old software porting it as is to W98 adding weather and calling it GP3... Who is ripping whom off??? > This is a very important week for the whole race sim community. Therelease Oh please... This week is no more important than the last... I'll bet you were crying as you were writing this. > of GP3 is the best hope we have ever had of a really good modern FormulaOne > simulation in the 3D card age. Geoff Crammond's genius essentially created > the race sim genre, so it is not unreasonable to expect that the legendwill > continue in just five days time (can you believe it's so near!). Are you for real with this??? If anyone was responsible for this genre is was David Kraeme with the Indy 500 Simulation in the last 80's. You must be totaly freaking or something... > Everyone has their wish list for what they would like to see in GP3. I > certainly have mine which I already know will not be fully answered (i.e. > safety car/proper pit penalty stops). However my main hope for the title > will almost certainly be fulfilled, i.e. that the game will in some way, > shape or form move the race sim genre a few notches forward. This hasn't It will. It will give a demonstration if a shitty attempt to repackage old stuff (GP2) and claim it is GP3. In fact it is pointless to reply to any more of your gushy dripping post. -- [email hidden]

I believe Ubisoft had the weather thing down long before GP3 did. Ubisoft's implementation looked good, was dynamic and most of all was done 2 years ago. Ubisoft also implemented incredible AI, some of the best pure 3D graphics seen in an F1 sim, a great damage model and an extensive career mode over a year ago in MGPRS2. Ubisoft also developed hands down the best MOD setup to date allowing free and open access to almost every graphic in the game. (sure, maybe because their hands where tied by a lack of a license but still they gave their game a longevity out of the box that other games only gain after months of work from their respective communities). In my opinion Ubisoft was the one out there sweating and innovating and working toward building a better sim while everyone else was resting on their laurels. So, hold on to the past legends; and I, with you, will hope they can still find a glimpse of the brilliance [gp3, n4, icr3] that lead them to greatness - but let us not forget about the talented young future prospects [rs3, wsc, nh] that will someday themselves produce a legend --- more than not it will be one of these budding stars who moves our genre forward a leap. Sometime in September 2000 - RS3 Chris Wright <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:8lfk2h$fs0$[email hidden]... > Before I begin, let me say that my comments below totally ignore thethings > I have read by those who have downloaded the warez version of GP3 - quite > frankly if people are prepared to utlilise someone else's intellectual > property before paying a penny, why should we trust anything they tell us? > > This is a very important week for the whole race sim community. Therelease > of GP3 is the best hope we have ever had of a really good modern FormulaOne > simulation in the 3D card age. Geoff Crammond's genius essentially created > the race sim genre, so it is not unreasonable to expect that the legendwill

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> continue in just five days time (can you believe it's so near!). > > Everyone has their wish list for what they would like to see in GP3. I > certainly have mine which I already know will not be fully answered (i.e. > safety car/proper pit penalty stops). However my main hope for the title > will almost certainly be fulfilled, i.e. that the game will in some way, > shape or form move the race sim genre a few notches forward. This hasn't > happened in a significant fashion since the 1998 (!) launch of Grand Prix > Legends. > > Having already seen avi files and screenies of the wet weather > implementation, I think I can safely say, without yet having turned a

wheel > in anger, that with this innovation alone, a new standard for realism has > been set. No-one has ever got this right in a sim yet, so GP3 will have > moved the goalposts in this area at least. > > While it is natural in the pre-release phase for everyone to comment onthe > visual aspects of the game, what we will not know for another few days is > how the gameplay has benefited from four years of development. Apparently > this has been one of the main focus areas during development, inparticular > AI characteristics over a long race. Again I am certain that we can look > forward to a new benchmark here as well. > > One of the main enjoyments with GPL is the tactile nature of the physics > model. GP3 will always struggle to match this same feel as todays carshave > an "on-rails" handling characteristic, in comparison to thelo-tech/hi-grunt > 1967 version of F1. In this sense accuracy will always count against it - > old grand prix drivers often comment how wonderful their cars were to > drive - you don't tend to get the same level of enthusiasm from todaysbreed > over their hi-tech mounts! In other words, we are likely to react to the > physics model in the same way as, say, Chris Amon would if he could drivea

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> few laps at Spa in his '67 Ferrari and then jump straight into the 2000 > model. > > What I am trying to say here is that I think most of us are in this hobby > for the long stretch. We certainly get short changed too often by big name > developers who promise much and deliver an arcade driving experience, so > let's go into GP3 week in the sure fire knowledge that accuracy has been

the > aim of the development team, just as in GP1 and 2. > > I confidently predict that by this time next week the race sim world willbe > a more enriched place than it has ever been before, because we are allabout

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> to own something that doesn't happen every year - A GAME THAT MOVES OUR > HOBBY FORWARD - > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

mracer wrote:

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> > LOL, this is so sad. > > Chris Wright wrote: > > "The release of GP3 is the best hope we have ever had of a really good modern > Formula One simulation in the 3D card age."

It was our last, best hope for peace at the dawn of the third age of mankind. As for adding "it failed" to that, I'll leave it to someone else. -lark-

yeah.. your dates are getting quite annoying.... Graeme Nash <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> > >Before I begin > > Do you think that before you begin next time you could fix the clock on > your computer? :-) > > -- > Cheers! > Graeme Nash

Just a small point, I agree with the rest of your comments, but Revs pre-dates Indy 500 comfortably. In that aspect at least, I think it's fair enough to say Geoff Crammond probably did bring the first motor-sports sim to home computers.

I was at the Ubisoft site yesterday and it doesn't say anything about an F1 sim for the PC in the near future... That's really keeping a low profile. ;-) Any site with more info? -Don't say The Unofficial, because they don't have zip, nada, zilch, "a number signifying the absense of a unit" either. Jan. =--- L_NiN0 wrote... > Because they want it to dominate based on merit, not on hype : ) > > <snip>

Hey.. when it comes to GPL "I SEE", says the blind man. <VBG> ;) [email hidden] wrote in <8lfpak$fa9$[email hidden]>:

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>In article <8lfk2h$fs0$[email hidden]>, > "Chris Wright" <[email hidden]> wrote: > ><LIBERAL SNIP> > >I agree with you on most points, Chris, and I applaud you for such a >well thought-out post, but I already see the potential for GP3 to blind >people to what else is out there, in much the same way that GPL has >made many of us blind around here for the past couple of years.

-- Scott B. Husted PA-Scott ICQ# 4395450

Fix your clock.

You've been watching too much Babylon 5... :)

> One of the main enjoyments with GPL is the tactile nature of the physics > model. GP3 will always struggle to match this same feel as todays carshave > an "on-rails" handling characteristic, in comparison to thelo-tech/hi-grunt > 1967 version of F1. In this sense accuracy will always count against it - > old grand prix drivers often comment how wonderful their cars were to > drive - you don't tend to get the same level of enthusiasm from todaysbreed > over their hi-tech mounts! In other words, we are likely to react to the > physics model in the same way as, say, Chris Amon would if he could drivea > few laps at Spa in his '67 Ferrari and then jump straight into the 2000 > model. But physics are physics, they haven't changed since the dawn of time (assuming that gravity has reamained relatively constant). The forces applied to a book sliding across a table, and a F1 car (be it 1967 or 2000) are the same. The behaviour of the car may be different, but the physics are exactly the same. I find it hard to believe that we as a sim community can comment on the behaviour of a modern F1 car, but we can address the physics. I'm not sure that most of us make that distinction, but I do believe that there are a few here that have tried. All of them have felt that the physics of GP3 (not the car behaviour, although that has been called into question too) is not entirely lifelike. The designer of TOCA2 once stated something in an interview that I've always taken to heart while reading RAS. This is paraphrasing but here goes... The gaming comunity doesn't want a perfect driving simulation, rather they want what they feel a perfect driving simulation is. In other words, We don't know how an F1 car drives but from watching races and real life experiences we have expectations of how a F1 car should drive. When a sim doesn't meet our expectations, then it is flawed, whether or not it is accurate or not. Whether you buy that or not, it's something to think about. And in conclusion to an incoherent post, the F1 2000 and GP3 warez reaction is something that is bound to be repeated time and time again. Game is about to be released, an illegal bootleg copy is obtained and distributed, game is thoroughly criticised for each and every flaw, positive posts roll in when reality sets in, game is released and more praise rolls in.

Because they want it to dominate based on merit, not on hype : ) Brian Short <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> If RS3 is coming out so soon, how come we haven't seen any screenshots of > it. I sure hope they arent keeping it as much of a secret as 3D Realms is > doing with Duke Nukem Forever. > > Brian > > > L_NiN0 <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:iQJe5.74436$[email hidden]... > > > > Sometime in September 2000 - RS3 > > > > > > >

Joona Vainio <[email hidden]> writes:

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> mracer wrote: > > > > LOL, this is so sad. > > > > Chris Wright wrote: > > > > "The release of GP3 is the best hope we have ever had of a really good modern > > Formula One simulation in the 3D card age." > > It was our last, best hope for peace at the dawn of the third age of > mankind. > > As for adding "it failed" to that, I'll leave it to someone else.

Hehe, I was thinking the same thing as I was opening this message after the previous one. "Where was that last, best hope for peace quote from?" -- Olav K. Malmin remove spam when replying

Get Some, Greg! LOL We all had a lot of hope for this title, but turning it into a religious experience might well lead to, well, maybe cyber-atheism? Well, gotta go pray at the WSC mountain now...... On Sun, 23 Jul 2000 16:54:56 -0500, "Greg Cisko" <[email hidden]> wrote:

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>This is the biggest pile of shit I have had the pleasure to read >in quite some time... > >"Chris Wright" <[email hidden]> wrote in message >news:8lfk2h$fs0$[email hidden]... >> Before I begin, let me say that my comments below totally ignore the >things >> I have read by those who have downloaded the warez version of GP3 - quite >> frankly if people are prepared to utlilise someone else's intellectual >> property before paying a penny, why should we trust anything they tell us? > >That is almost as bad as repackaging some old software porting >it as is to W98 adding weather and calling it GP3... Who is ripping >whom off??? > >> This is a very important week for the whole race sim community. The >release > >Oh please... This week is no more important than the last... I'll bet >you were crying as you were writing this. > >> of GP3 is the best hope we have ever had of a really good modern Formula >One >> simulation in the 3D card age. Geoff Crammond's genius essentially created >> the race sim genre, so it is not unreasonable to expect that the legend >will >> continue in just five days time (can you believe it's so near!). > >Are you for real with this??? If anyone was responsible for this genre >is was David Kraeme with the Indy 500 Simulation in the last 80's. >You must be totaly freaking or something... > >> Everyone has their wish list for what they would like to see in GP3. I >> certainly have mine which I already know will not be fully answered (i.e. >> safety car/proper pit penalty stops). However my main hope for the title >> will almost certainly be fulfilled, i.e. that the game will in some way, >> shape or form move the race sim genre a few notches forward. This hasn't > >It will. It will give a demonstration if a shitty attempt to repackage >old stuff (GP2) and claim it is GP3. > > >In fact it is pointless to reply to any more of your gushy dripping >post.

yeah.. your dates are getting quite annoying....

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> > LOL, this is so sad. > > "The release of GP3 is the best hope we have ever had of a really good modern > > Formula One simulation in the 3D card age." > It was our last, best hope for peace at the dawn of the third age of > mankind. > As for adding "it failed" to that, I'll leave it to someone else.

Hehe, I was thinking the same thing as I was opening this message after the previous one. "Where was that last, best hope for peace quote from?" -- Olav K. Malmin remove spam when replying

Wasn't it shelved?

"Olav K. Malmin" wrote:

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> > Joona Vainio <[email hidden]> writes: > > > mracer wrote: > > > > > > LOL, this is so sad. > > > > > > Chris Wright wrote: > > > > > > "The release of GP3 is the best hope we have ever had of a really good modern > > > Formula One simulation in the 3D card age." > > > > It was our last, best hope for peace at the dawn of the third age of > > mankind. > > > > As for adding "it failed" to that, I'll leave it to someone else. > > Hehe, I was thinking the same thing as I was opening this message > after the previous one. "Where was that last, best hope for peace > quote from?"

Babylon 5....... Beers and cheers (uncle) Goy "Team Mirage" http://www.teammirage.com/ "The Pits" http://www.theuspits.com/ * Spam is for losers who can't get business any other way * "Spamkiller" http://www.spamkiller.com

Wasn't it shelved?

Goy Larsen <[email hidden]> writes:

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> "Olav K. Malmin" wrote: > > > > Joona Vainio <[email hidden]> writes: > > > > > mracer wrote: > > > > > > > > LOL, this is so sad. > > > > > > > > Chris Wright wrote: > > > > > > > > "The release of GP3 is the best hope we have ever had of a really good modern > > > > Formula One simulation in the 3D card age." > > > > > > It was our last, best hope for peace at the dawn of the third age of > > > mankind. > > > > > > As for adding "it failed" to that, I'll leave it to someone else. > > > > Hehe, I was thinking the same thing as I was opening this message > > after the previous one. "Where was that last, best hope for peace > > quote from?" > > Babylon 5.......

I knew that, was only trying to keep it internal for little while. :) -- Olav K. Malmin remove spam when replying

"Olav K. Malmin" wrote: > > I knew that, was only trying to keep it internal for little while. :) Ah, sorry then :-) I just got onto this NG after an extended weekend away and going through tons of (to me) useless posts about a game which isn't even on the shelves yet made me miss the subtlety of your post That's my story and I'm sticking to it :-) Beers and cheers (uncle) Goy "Team Mirage" http://www.teammirage.com/ "The Pits" http://www.theuspits.com/ * Spam is for losers who can't get business any other way * "Spamkiller" http://www.spamkiller.com

"L_NiN0" <[email hidden]> wrote > Because they want it to dominate based on merit, not on hype : ) Ah... thus they are already preparing for a failure? ;-) -- -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> -- May the Downforce be with you... -- http://www.WeRace.net -- People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world.

On Mon, 24 Jul 2000 13:57:32 +0000, Joona Vainio <[email hidden]> wrote: >It was our last, best hope for peace at the dawn of the third age of >mankind. > >As for adding "it failed" to that, I'll leave it to someone else. > >-lark-ivanova? ;-) cheers, Uwe -- Uwe Schuerkamp //////////////////////////// http://www.schuerkamp.de/ Herford, Germany \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ (52.0N/8.5E) Ever wondered what's wrong with the world? http://bnetwork.com/ PGP Fingerprint: 2E 13 20 22 9A 3F 63 7F 67 6F E9 B1 A8 36 A4 61

On Sun, 23 Jul 2000 19:08:49 -0800, Brian Short <[email hidden]> wrote: >If RS3 is coming out so soon, how come we haven't seen any screenshots of >it. I sure hope they arent keeping it as much of a secret as 3D Realms is >doing with Duke Nukem Forever. > >Brian Learn your history: Screenshots of GP3 looked *great* ;-) Uwe -- Uwe Schuerkamp //////////////////////////// http://www.schuerkamp.de/ Herford, Germany \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ (52.0N/8.5E) Ever wondered what's wrong with the world? http://bnetwork.com/ PGP Fingerprint: 2E 13 20 22 9A 3F 63 7F 67 6F E9 B1 A8 36 A4 61

C'mon, Cisco. Refer to my earlier post to you,and turn down the nozzle on that freakin' nasty tempered flame-thrower of yours. Isn't this just a GAME and for FUN?? Don't we all have REAL lives where there are REAL issues to get exercised over?? I like to read posts to this NG and follow the discussions carefully, but when the majority of messages from a given source are profane, irritable and insulting to another reader, then I simply stop reading those messages. That is too bad, because I need all the help I can find. I know for certain I can think of several smart butt responses to these few lines, and I suspect you are equally capable, but how 'bout backing off on invective and insult for a few posts just to see if maybe life could still be fun and engaging? Glen Priest * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet's Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet - Free!