Re: GP3 on-track banking wierdness.

In article <8ljtk8$3bo$[email hidden]>, [email hidden] says...

Quoted text (9 lines)

> Mike Armstrong <[email hidden]> wrote: > : The only time I have seen true 'Roll' from the cockpit is when contact > : is made with another car and you become airborne, and then, you can > : almost feel the framerate slow as an (IMO) 'canned tilt' routine is > : called. > > Remember that a modern F1 car doesn't roll like a GPL car. You > shouldn't really see much roll in a well set up modern F1 machine - > they're much more stiffly sprung than the GPL beasties.

I think Mike meant roll in the sense of angular rotation about the z-axis of the car when the wheels on one side of the car ride up a high curb. I'm assuming he also meant that the cockpit rolls rather than the view. This is almost like the much-derided F10 "third person" view in GPL:-( Personally I would prefer the view to roll. - Michael

"rrevved" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

Quoted text (31 lines)

> On Tue, 25 Jul 2000 11:23:08 +0100, Mike Armstrong <[email hidden]> wrote: > > > When I round the last corner at Mexico > >in GPL I can almost feel the centrifugal force pushing me into my seat > >(well, slight artistic licence here, but you know what I mean). This > >effect is achieved by the your view from the cockpit remaining level > >and the horizon/environment tilting. > > > >Sounds simple I know, but see how GP3 implements this. The cockpit > >tilts and the horizon stays level. It's as if your virtual eyes are > >staying level with the horizon. Just go around the last corner at > >Brazil keeping to the right and you'll see what I mean. IMO this is > >totally unacceptable and kills the effect. Your view should always be > >liked to the cockpit, not the horizon. > > It's a virual cockpit. It is emulating a driver's head moving > about in the cockpit. If you make, for example, a high-G long > left sweeping turn, the body will roll to the right. The virtual > driver's head/eyes will lean INTO the turn, maintaining a more > even keel with the horizon, and not allowing his head to follow the > body's roll. > > Some sims have taken this too far, in my opinion, like CPR, > where the driver actually -turns- his head, and looks into the > turn. Very disorienting, for me. If you didn't like the way > the virtual cockpit was implemented in CPR, you could turn it > off. The same option is available in GP3. > > Personally, I think the GP3 cockpit and driver head motion, etc. > is EXTREMELY well done. It's the best I've ever seen. >

I agree in concept (haven't seen the game yet) as all the motorcycle sims seem easier to ride when the driver's head is allowed to move around and maintain a fairly level view. I know that my eyes and head would always automatically compensate for body roll when I was driving agressively, even in a verrrry softly sprung 2CV. When you turn off the virtual cockpit, does the horizon tilt? Does it do this smoothly? Stephen

On Tue, 25 Jul 2000 05:54:07 -0500, rrevved <[email hidden]> wrote: >If you didn't like the way >the virtual cockpit was implemented in CPR, you could turn it >off. The same option is available in GP3. Only if you're using Software3D at 640x480, as far as I can see. >Personally, I think the GP3 cockpit and driver head motion, etc. >is EXTREMELY well done. It's the best I've ever seen. Yeah it feels pretty good, but unlike you said, the virtual head is actually moving to the _outside_ of the corner, not to the inside. Use the wide angle cockpit to make it more apparent. Seems their drivers all need a little neck muscle workout. :-) As for the horizon vs car banking, I too think that GP3's way is more 'realistic',in real life your eyes/brain compensate for the tilt. Blaze

I'm surprised that this has not been noticed yet. Yes, GP3 has on-track banking, but the way in which it is implemented is plain wierd. For me, well implemented on-track banking increases the imersion in a sim greatly. When I round the last corner at Mexico in GPL I can almost feel the centrifugal force pushing me into my seat (well, slight artistic licence here, but you know what I mean). This effect is achieved by the your view from the cockpit remaining level and the horizon/environment tilting. Sounds simple I know, but see how GP3 implements this. The cockpit tilts and the horizon stays level. It's as if your virtual eyes are staying level with the horizon. Just go around the last corner at Brazil keeping to the right and you'll see what I mean. IMO this is totally unacceptable and kills the effect. Your view should always be liked to the cockpit, not the horizon. Imagine if an oval racer were released with this style of banking implementation. It would be slaughtered! The same effect can be observed when mounting the kerbs. Most kerbs are higher than the track surface, yes? The horizon should tilt but it doesn't. The only time I have seen true 'Roll' from the cockpit is when contact is made with another car and you become airborne, and then, you can almost feel the framerate slow as an (IMO) 'canned tilt' routine is called. Not only can GP3's antiquated Physics/3D engine not handle 'Roll' correctly but 'Pitch' appears wrong to me also. Sometimes a car heading up an incline seems to have it's nose buried into the track and it's arse end up in the air! Can't the GFX engine pitch these cars? Camber/banking HAS been added to the GP3 model, however it's implementation is bad. The tracks in general remain flat with banking added at a few (too few) special places where it is really noticable. The above points in combination with the lifeless driving model and average GFX kill this sim for me. I really wanted to like GP3 and am greatly dissapointed. Mike

Mike Armstrong <[email hidden]> writes:

Quoted text (12 lines)

> Sounds simple I know, but see how GP3 implements this. The cockpit > tilts and the horizon stays level. It's as if your virtual eyes are > staying level with the horizon. Just go around the last corner at > Brazil keeping to the right and you'll see what I mean. IMO this is > totally unacceptable and kills the effect. Your view should always be > liked to the cockpit, not the horizon. Imagine if an oval racer were > released with this style of banking implementation. It would be > slaughtered! > > The same effect can be observed when mounting the kerbs. Most kerbs > are higher than the track surface, yes? The horizon should tilt but > it doesn't.

I haven't tried GP3 yet, so I can't comment on that specifically, but it is an interesting point you have for simulators in general. I don't know where I read it, but the eye is supposed to compensate for small differences in the angle between the horizon and the head. So for small bankings it wouldn't neccesarily look like the horizon is not horizontal. Try to look at one of the corners of your monitor and tilt your head from left too right (tell your co-workers you have a stiff neck today if asked any funny questions:). For me it looks like the monitor is not moving at all. Of course, gravity may be a big part of it, and in fairly big banked corners, the vertical gravitational forces in not neccesarily pointed to the centre of the earth. Everything in my IMHO, but it's interesting. -- Olav K. Malmin remove spam when replying

I'm surprised that this has not been noticed yet. Yes, GP3 has on-track banking, but the way in which it is implemented is plain wierd. For me, well implemented on-track banking increases the imersion in a sim greatly. When I round the last corner at Mexico in GPL I can almost feel the centrifugal force pushing me into my seat (well, slight artistic licence here, but you know what I mean). This effect is achieved by the your view from the cockpit remaining level and the horizon/environment tilting. Sounds simple I know, but see how GP3 implements this. The cockpit tilts and the horizon stays level. It's as if your virtual eyes are staying level with the horizon. Just go around the last corner at Brazil keeping to the right and you'll see what I mean. IMO this is totally unacceptable and kills the effect. Your view should always be liked to the cockpit, not the horizon. Imagine if an oval racer were released with this style of banking implementation. It would be slaughtered! The same effect can be observed when mounting the kerbs. Most kerbs are higher than the track surface, yes? The horizon should tilt but it doesn't. The only time I have seen true 'Roll' from the cockpit is when contact is made with another car and you become airborne, and then, you can almost feel the framerate slow as an (IMO) 'canned tilt' routine is called. Not only can GP3's antiquated Physics/3D engine not handle 'Roll' correctly but 'Pitch' appears wrong to me also. Sometimes a car heading up an incline seems to have it's nose buried into the track and it's arse end up in the air! Can't the GFX engine pitch these cars? Camber/banking HAS been added to the GP3 model, however it's implementation is bad. The tracks in general remain flat with banking added at a few (too few) special places where it is really noticable. The above points in combination with the lifeless driving model and average GFX kill this sim for me. I really wanted to like GP3 and am greatly dissapointed. Mike

Mike Armstrong <[email hidden]> wrote: : The only time I have seen true 'Roll' from the cockpit is when contact : is made with another car and you become airborne, and then, you can : almost feel the framerate slow as an (IMO) 'canned tilt' routine is : called. Remember that a modern F1 car doesn't roll like a GPL car. You shouldn't really see much roll in a well set up modern F1 machine - they're much more stiffly sprung than the GPL beasties. -- Richard G. Clegg Only the mind is waving Networks and Non-Linear Dynamics Group Dept. of Mathematics, Uni. of York UPDATED WWW: http://manor.york.ac.uk/

Hi, Well, whatever the reason...i to have some problem with this i can't really put my finger on, maybe it's what you guys are talking about. I'm having a very hard time judging what the hell the car is doing in GP3. Understeer...oversteer...etc..etc..i'm not getting enough feedback visually to really tell what's goin on. Never have any problems with that at all in GPL...and i don't think the only reason for that is physics differences Cheers, willem On Tue, 25 Jul 2000 05:54:07 -0500, rrevved <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted text (30 lines)

>On Tue, 25 Jul 2000 11:23:08 +0100, Mike Armstrong <[email hidden]> wrote: > >> When I round the last corner at Mexico >>in GPL I can almost feel the centrifugal force pushing me into my seat >>(well, slight artistic licence here, but you know what I mean). This >>effect is achieved by the your view from the cockpit remaining level >>and the horizon/environment tilting. >> >>Sounds simple I know, but see how GP3 implements this. The cockpit >>tilts and the horizon stays level. It's as if your virtual eyes are >>staying level with the horizon. Just go around the last corner at >>Brazil keeping to the right and you'll see what I mean. IMO this is >>totally unacceptable and kills the effect. Your view should always be >>liked to the cockpit, not the horizon. >It's a virual cockpit. It is emulating a driver's head moving >about in the cockpit. If you make, for example, a high-G long >left sweeping turn, the body will roll to the right. The virtual >driver's head/eyes will lean INTO the turn, maintaining a more >even keel with the horizon, and not allowing his head to follow the >body's roll. > >Some sims have taken this too far, in my opinion, like CPR, >where the driver actually -turns- his head, and looks into the >turn. Very disorienting, for me. If you didn't like the way >the virtual cockpit was implemented in CPR, you could turn it >off. The same option is available in GP3. > >Personally, I think the GP3 cockpit and driver head motion, etc. >is EXTREMELY well done. It's the best I've ever seen.

Isn't the virtual cockpit only available in software mode tho.... Martyn_D rrevved wrote:

Quoted text (49 lines)

> On Tue, 25 Jul 2000 13:40:08 +0200, "Stephen Ferguson" <[email hidden]> wrote: > > > > >"rrevved" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > >news:[email hidden]... > >> On Tue, 25 Jul 2000 11:23:08 +0100, Mike Armstrong <[email hidden]> wrote: > >> > >> > When I round the last corner at Mexico > >> >in GPL I can almost feel the centrifugal force pushing me into my seat > >> >(well, slight artistic licence here, but you know what I mean). This > >> >effect is achieved by the your view from the cockpit remaining level > >> >and the horizon/environment tilting. > >> > > >> >Sounds simple I know, but see how GP3 implements this. The cockpit > >> >tilts and the horizon stays level. It's as if your virtual eyes are > >> >staying level with the horizon. Just go around the last corner at > >> >Brazil keeping to the right and you'll see what I mean. IMO this is > >> >totally unacceptable and kills the effect. Your view should always be > >> >liked to the cockpit, not the horizon. > >> > >> It's a virual cockpit. It is emulating a driver's head moving > >> about in the cockpit. If you make, for example, a high-G long > >> left sweeping turn, the body will roll to the right. The virtual > >> driver's head/eyes will lean INTO the turn, maintaining a more > >> even keel with the horizon, and not allowing his head to follow the > >> body's roll. > >> > >> Some sims have taken this too far, in my opinion, like CPR, > >> where the driver actually -turns- his head, and looks into the > >> turn. Very disorienting, for me. If you didn't like the way > >> the virtual cockpit was implemented in CPR, you could turn it > >> off. The same option is available in GP3. > >> > >> Personally, I think the GP3 cockpit and driver head motion, etc. > >> is EXTREMELY well done. It's the best I've ever seen. > >> > > > >I agree in concept (haven't seen the game yet) as all the motorcycle sims > >seem easier to ride when the driver's head is allowed to move around and > >maintain a fairly level view. I know that my eyes and head would always > >automatically compensate for body roll when I was driving agressively, even > >in a verrrry softly sprung 2CV. > > > >When you turn off the virtual cockpit, does the horizon tilt? Does it do > >this smoothly? > > Stephen, I haven't tried turning it off. I may try it later this evening. > I think you're going to like the 'virtual' cockpit. It is done just right, > at least for me, and I normally switch them off immediately.

Richard G Clegg <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted text (9 lines)

>Mike Armstrong <[email hidden]> wrote: >: The only time I have seen true 'Roll' from the cockpit is when contact >: is made with another car and you become airborne, and then, you can >: almost feel the framerate slow as an (IMO) 'canned tilt' routine is >: called. > > Remember that a modern F1 car doesn't roll like a GPL car. You >shouldn't really see much roll in a well set up modern F1 machine - >they're much more stiffly sprung than the GPL beasties.

I realise that Richard. I wasn't refering to the chassis 'roll' in relation to the suspension and wheels. What I was refering to was the entire car rolling when one side becomes higher than another, whilst riding kerbs for example. To clarify, the horizon stays static, and the cockpit rolls in relation to the eyes. Also, when following another car (try this at the big 180 at nurburgring) you can see that the GFX cannot model smooth transitions between a 'flat' car and a 'rolled' car. The car rolls in obvious steps. Maybe I'm nitpicking here!

rrevved <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted text (21 lines)

>On Tue, 25 Jul 2000 11:23:08 +0100, Mike Armstrong <[email hidden]> wrote: > >> When I round the last corner at Mexico >>in GPL I can almost feel the centrifugal force pushing me into my seat >>(well, slight artistic licence here, but you know what I mean). This >>effect is achieved by the your view from the cockpit remaining level >>and the horizon/environment tilting. >> >>Sounds simple I know, but see how GP3 implements this. The cockpit >>tilts and the horizon stays level. It's as if your virtual eyes are >>staying level with the horizon. Just go around the last corner at >>Brazil keeping to the right and you'll see what I mean. IMO this is >>totally unacceptable and kills the effect. Your view should always be >>liked to the cockpit, not the horizon. > >It's a virual cockpit. It is emulating a driver's head moving >about in the cockpit. If you make, for example, a high-G long >left sweeping turn, the body will roll to the right. The virtual >driver's head/eyes will lean INTO the turn, maintaining a more >even keel with the horizon, and not allowing his head to follow the >body's roll.

This example is correct if the corner is un-banked. Remember, the reason for leaning into the corner is because the driver is trying (probably instinctively) to keep the centrifugal force running straight from his head through his neck and body. When the corner is banked the body will (in addition to rolling to the right) be pushed down into the seat. As the angle of banking increases there will be less roll to the right and more push down into the seat. With this there is less need for the head to adjust. Riding the wheel of death is perhaps the most extreme example of this. So, as long as there is _some_ banking present then the horizon should tilt so _some_ degree. Maybe not to the opposite degree of the banking, but there should be some tilt. It seems wrong (to me at least) to say that the drivers eyes/brain will compensate for banking. Imagine those indycar drivers with their heads cranked over to the right for 200 laps of an oval! > >Some sims have taken this too far, in my opinion, like CPR, >where the driver actually -turns- his head, and looks into the >turn. Very disorienting, for me. If you didn't like the way >the virtual cockpit was implemented in CPR, you could turn it >off. The same option is available in GP3. Time for me to eat some of my words here. I tried disabling the virtual cockpit(VC) (only available in software 3d/manual detail btw) and the horizon now tilts. So, I stand corrected there. The engine _can_ handle tilting of the horizon/environment, so to omit any tilt from the VC mode must have been a design choice. However, I still maintain that there should be more horizon tilt in the VC. > >Personally, I think the GP3 cockpit and driver head motion, etc. >is EXTREMELY well done. It's the best I've ever seen. Yes, I really like GP3's VC in every respect other than the way in which it handles banking. I guess that I'm stuck with the VC as it stands because I can't bear to run in Software mode for more than, oh, 1/2 a lap. I should point out that since my first post I have been playing this some more (with the keyboard, takes me back to GP1) and it is growing on me. Cheers!

MichaelJP <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted text (13 lines)

>In article <8ljtk8$3bo$[email hidden]>, [email hidden] says... >> Mike Armstrong <[email hidden]> wrote: >> : The only time I have seen true 'Roll' from the cockpit is when contact >> : is made with another car and you become airborne, and then, you can >> : almost feel the framerate slow as an (IMO) 'canned tilt' routine is >> : called. >> >> Remember that a modern F1 car doesn't roll like a GPL car. You >> shouldn't really see much roll in a well set up modern F1 machine - >> they're much more stiffly sprung than the GPL beasties. > >I think Mike meant roll in the sense of angular rotation about the z-axis >of the car when the wheels on one side of the car ride up a high curb.

Yup, that's exactly what I meant. > >I'm assuming he also meant that the cockpit rolls rather than the view. >This is almost like the much-derided F10 "third person" view in GPL:-( Yes! I knew the impression I was getting was familiar. > >Personally I would prefer the view to roll. I'm pleased to see I'm not the only one! Try turning the virtual cockpit off. That's how banking should have been handled IMO. Shame about the Software3D and the loss of all the other VC effects though. > >- Michael

On Tue, 25 Jul 2000 15:30:31 +0100, Mike Armstrong <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted text (30 lines)

>MichaelJP <[email hidden]> wrote: > >>In article <8ljtk8$3bo$[email hidden]>, [email hidden] says... >>> Mike Armstrong <[email hidden]> wrote: >>> : The only time I have seen true 'Roll' from the cockpit is when contact >>> : is made with another car and you become airborne, and then, you can >>> : almost feel the framerate slow as an (IMO) 'canned tilt' routine is >>> : called. >>> >>> Remember that a modern F1 car doesn't roll like a GPL car. You >>> shouldn't really see much roll in a well set up modern F1 machine - >>> they're much more stiffly sprung than the GPL beasties. >> >>I think Mike meant roll in the sense of angular rotation about the z-axis >>of the car when the wheels on one side of the car ride up a high curb. > >Yup, that's exactly what I meant. > >> >>I'm assuming he also meant that the cockpit rolls rather than the view. >>This is almost like the much-derided F10 "third person" view in GPL:-( > >Yes! I knew the impression I was getting was familiar. > >> >>Personally I would prefer the view to roll. > >I'm pleased to see I'm not the only one! Try turning the virtual >cockpit off. That's how banking should have been handled IMO. Shame >about the Software3D and the loss of all the other VC effects though.

Hmmm... strange that the option would be disabled in HW 3D??? Maybe one of those things that could be different in the final (like being able to disable the wheel movement?) JoH