Should Tiburon be embarrassed?

I just took the GTR demo2 for another fun run after a day with NSR and all I can wonder is whether Tiburon (sp?) is embarrassed for the sad state of NSR?" Think about it for a second. We have a bunch of talented modders (Simbin) that can take an "older" game engine and do the great things with it that theyve done compared to the high dollar supposed "cutting edge" technology of EA and its "not so great" attempts a simulating Nascar. Side by side it isnt even close. You can clearly see Simbin are Racers at heart while Tiburon are business men making games. Another hats off to ya Simbin (and a shake of my head to you Tiburon). Looking forward to the international release next month. Mitch -- Remove "nospam." to reply. SuSE 9.2 Pro KDE 3.3.2a

I gotta tell you, the more you work with NSR the better it gets. But it ain't no GPL :) -Larry "Mitch_A" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:aQsRd.1164$[email hidden]...

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>I just took the GTR demo2 for another fun run after a day with NSR and all >I > can wonder is whether Tiburon (sp?) is embarrassed for the sad state of > NSR?" Think about it for a second. We have a bunch of talented modders > (Simbin) that can take an "older" game engine and do the great things with > it that theyve done compared to the high dollar supposed "cutting edge" > technology of EA and its "not so great" attempts a simulating Nascar. > Side > by side it isnt even close. You can clearly see Simbin are Racers at > heart > while Tiburon are business men making games. > > Another hats off to ya Simbin (and a shake of my head to you Tiburon). > > Looking forward to the international release next month. > > Mitch > -- > Remove "nospam." to reply. > SuSE 9.2 Pro KDE 3.3.2a

Why on earth should they be embarassed??? Nascar SimRacing is the new definitive Nascar simulation. I really have to wonder if some of you making these comments have even tried it, it leaves NR2003 for dead in nearly every way. Rather, EA should be applauded for producing the finest Nascar sim to date.

On 18 Feb 2005 14:28:37 -0800, [email hidden] wrote: >I really have to wonder if some of you making these comments have even >tried it, it leaves NR2003 for dead in nearly every way. Really? How are the mirrors workin for ya in NSR? Spotter? Last time I checked these items worked out of the box for all Papy sims. NSR is a 3/4 finished product, and nothing more. And btw, if NSR leaves NR2003 in the dust, I would suppose all leagues are making the move to NSR starting next week right?

TW wrote: > NSR is a 3/4 finished product, and nothing more. And btw, if NSR > leaves NR2003 in the dust, I would suppose all leagues are making the > move to NSR starting next week right? Most will move so fast you won't even notice the transition. :)

<[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> Why on earth should they be embarassed??? > > Nascar SimRacing is the new definitive Nascar simulation. > > I really have to wonder if some of you making these comments have even > tried it, it leaves NR2003 for dead in nearly every way. > > Rather, EA should be applauded for producing the finest Nascar sim to > date. >

Bub, you are seriously entertaining, and don't let anyone think it's not appreciated. Keep up the good work! ;-)

Steve Blankenship wrote: > Bub, you are seriously entertaining, and don't let anyone think it'snot > appreciated. Keep up the good work! ;-) It is certainly not my intention to provide entertainment, I'm just stating the facts as I see them. It may surprise you but plenty of 'hardcore' race simmers are very impressed with this latest EA Nascar effort and some very well respected memebers of the community are writing glowing reviews. I know you may find it a little hard to swallow that your 'beloved' papy sims have finally been outdone but that is indeed the reality of the situation my friend.

On 18 Feb 2005 19:56:06 -0800, [email hidden] wrote: >I know you may find it a little hard to swallow that your 'beloved' >papy sims have finally been outdone but that is indeed the reality of >the situation my friend. Beloved? You bet, because NR2003 is still the benchmark. Am I blinded by loyalty to Papy? Not in the least, or I wouldn't have shelled out the money for the EA title. I'm ready for a change...I think everyone is. But this one still has work to be done to surpass what we currently have...my friend.

<[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> Steve Blankenship wrote: > > > Bub, you are seriously entertaining, and don't let anyone think it's > not > > appreciated. Keep up the good work! ;-) > > It is certainly not my intention to provide entertainment, I'm just > stating the facts as I see them. > > It may surprise you but plenty of 'hardcore' race simmers are very > impressed with this latest EA Nascar effort and some very well > respected memebers of the community are writing glowing reviews. > > I know you may find it a little hard to swallow that your 'beloved' > papy sims have finally been outdone but that is indeed the reality of > the situation my friend.

Thanks very much for playing - please try again!

Yes I can't stop laughing, please tell me all of these "top" drivers and leagues? "Steve Blankenship" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... >> Steve Blankenship wrote: >> >> > Bub, you are seriously entertaining, and don't let anyone think it's >> not >> > appreciated. Keep up the good work! ;-) >> >> It is certainly not my intention to provide entertainment, I'm just >> stating the facts as I see them. >> >> It may surprise you but plenty of 'hardcore' race simmers are very >> impressed with this latest EA Nascar effort and some very well >> respected memebers of the community are writing glowing reviews. >> >> I know you may find it a little hard to swallow that your 'beloved' >> papy sims have finally been outdone but that is indeed the reality of >> the situation my friend. > > Thanks very much for playing - please try again! > >

Which leagues are planning to move immediately? I haven't see any mention it yet and ours is certainly waiting as no members are interested at this point. Even OLR a big supporter of NSR is not switching until a patch comes out to address a number of multiplayer problems. As is from what I read it would be pretty hard to use this for a league due to the issues. <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> TW wrote: > >> NSR is a 3/4 finished product, and nothing more. And btw, if NSR >> leaves NR2003 in the dust, I would suppose all leagues are making the >> move to NSR starting next week right? > > Most will move so fast you won't even notice the transition. :) >

"The new definitive Nascar simulation"? Are we talking about the same product that doesn't support AA? The one in which I spent all afternoon yesterday scouring 6-10 sim racing websites trying to find a handful of tweaks? The one that has a spotter that is worse than the "outdone" NR2003? The one with car models that look like they came from 1988? If I could overlook the horrible look of the tracks without AA, it would be closer. How can a game that it 2 years old still offer clearer, crisper and more detailed images at higher FPS than one that SHOULD be taking advantage of the better GPU's out there? I'm not using a slouch of rig either. If I could place side by side full screen images of both games, (no enhancements, no cropping or resizing) at the same screen res, color depth and max details, the easy winner will be NR2003. I won't go so far as to say I hate NSR, because there is a lot left to explore. But side by side, I still give a good sized lead to NR2003. Out of curiousity, (and I recall that you only have the demo), what areas do give NSR the edge in?

On 18 Feb 2005 14:28:37 -0800, [email hidden] wrote: > Why on earth should they be embarassed??? > > Nascar SimRacing is the new definitive Nascar simulation. You keep repeating this statement here in this group like it's your life's mantra, yet fail to back it up with facts or comments where you think NSR excels all other previous NASCAR sims. Care to enlighten us in this regard, please? Cheers & looking forward to hear from you, uwe -- GPG Fingerprint: 2E 13 20 22 9A 3F 63 7F 67 6F E9 B1 A8 36 A4 61

Ya and its a complete new sim too right? Not just an update of Thunder? Look in the 2005_NEXTEL_Cup.pm file with notepad: // Nascar Thunder 2004 Suspension File - Developed By Doug Arnao 05-21-03 // Revised 5/21-03 A-Arm placement to reflect a more relaistic in-garage static camber setting // Revised 5/22/03 Shortened Torque Tube length to 60 inches (was 100") // Revised 6/06/03 Incresed length of steering arm <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> Why on earth should they be embarassed??? > > Nascar SimRacing is the new definitive Nascar simulation. > > I really have to wonder if some of you making these comments have even > tried it, it leaves NR2003 for dead in nearly every way. > > Rather, EA should be applauded for producing the finest Nascar sim to > date. >

Steve Blankenship wrote: ... > Thanks very much for playing - please try again! At the moment, both the pro and the con side seem to refrain from providing any tangible considerations and facts. I'm currently a big fan of rFactor and GTP, I'm simply not an oval racer, but how about a little a treasure hunt in NSR. There's something in it which I have not seen mentioned here at all. It's in the physics, and I find it quite remarkable. Anyone? ;-) Achim

Schooner wrote: > Ya and its a complete new sim too right? Not just an update ofThunder? > > Look in the 2005_NEXTEL_Cup.pm file with notepad: > > // Nascar Thunder 2004 Suspension File - Developed By Doug Arnao05-21-03 > // Revised 5/21-03 A-Arm placement to reflect a more relaisticin-garage > static camber setting > // Revised 5/22/03 Shortened Torque Tube length to 60 inches (was100") > // Revised 6/06/03 Incresed length of steering arm Well there is no doubt it is an evolution of previous titles in the series but things do often evolve into something great which is what I believe we have with NSR. The new physics as mentioned in an earlier post are great, you now have controllable oversteer and can put the car into a drift/slide that you can collect up.

[email hidden] wrote:

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> Schooner wrote: > >> Ya and its a complete new sim too right? Not just an update of > Thunder? >> >> Look in the 2005_NEXTEL_Cup.pm file with notepad: >> >> // Nascar Thunder 2004 Suspension File - Developed By Doug Arnao > 05-21-03 >> // Revised 5/21-03 A-Arm placement to reflect a more relaistic > in-garage >> static camber setting >> // Revised 5/22/03 Shortened Torque Tube length to 60 inches (was > 100") >> // Revised 6/06/03 Incresed length of steering arm > > Well there is no doubt it is an evolution of previous titles in the > series but things do often evolve into something great which is what I > believe we have with NSR. > > The new physics as mentioned in an earlier post are great, you now have > controllable oversteer and can put the car into a drift/slide that you > can collect up.

I was originally comparing NSR to the current king of driving simulations GTR not NR2003 (which it competes admirably though hardly perfect). Mitch -- Remove "nospam." to reply. SuSE 9.2 Pro KDE 3.3.2a

Mitch_A wrote: > I was originally comparing NSR to the current king of drivingsimulations > GTR not NR2003 (which it competes admirably though hardly perfect). > > Mitch You are really comparing apples with oranges in that case.

"Joachim Trensz" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > Steve Blankenship wrote: > ... > > Thanks very much for playing - please try again! > > At the moment, both the pro and the con side seem to refrain fromproviding any > tangible considerations and facts. > > I'm currently a big fan of rFactor and GTP, I'm simply not an oval racer,but > how about a little a treasure hunt in NSR. There's something in it which Ihave > not seen mentioned here at all. It's in the physics, and I find it quite > remarkable. Anyone? ;-) > > Achim Fair enough Achim; just couldn't resist baiting our omnipresent new friend. Was thinking it might be ymenard in disguise... ;-) But physics and driving feel is the number one thing for me. I haven't dug around in the files a lot yet, but I see the suspension files remain from Nascar Thunder 2004, which Doug Arnao did for them a couple of years ago (at least according to the file headers.) But for a bit of NSR physics treasure, how's this bit from the HDV file. DiffPumpTorque=250.0 // at 100% pump diff setting, the torque redirected per wheelspeed difference in radians/sec (roughly 1.2kph) DiffPumpRange=(0.0,0.05,1) // differential acting on all driven wheels DiffPumpSetting=0 DiffPowerRange=(0.35,0.05,18) // fraction of power-side input torque transferred through diff DiffPowerSetting=0 // (not implemented for four-wheel drive) DiffCoastRange=(0.0,0.05,1) // fraction of coast-side input torque transferred through diff DiffCoastSetting=0 // (not implemented for four-wheel drive) DiffPreloadRange=(10.0, 5.0, 1) // preload torque that must be overcome to have wheelspeed difference DiffPreloadSetting=0 // (not implemented for four-wheel drive) All the related diff setting values are at zero in all the SVM setup files, which means you have a limited slip diff. That's one reason you can easily do big lurid slides in NSR cars (at 170 on pavement). Cup cars of course have Detroit Locker rear ends. Back when I was messing with the demo, I changed the HDV settings to mimic a locked power-side diff and the rear actually behaved a lot more like the cars in NR2003. Admittedly, slideways is not the fastest way around, it is very easy to do, lap after lap. Drive it in, turn it down hard and toss it sideways, then just floor it and steer your way out. One-handed if you like. Bit like Ratbag's Sprint Car game, but maybe even more forgiving here. (At least in that one you had to really work the pedal to find some bite off the corners.) And as people noted about the demo, you can do one-tire burnouts against the wall - which is tough when the rears are locked together. The tire temps show it's not a graphical glitch. Oops! The ISI engine can produce a solid and challenging driving experience, but I think the above offers a little evidence that EA/Tiburon have gone the route of making it "seem" real to the masses rather than making it real in the data and letting users learn how to deal with the result. And as the masses are generally sure they could win the Daytona 500 given the chance, they love the ability to recover from losing the rear end with ease. If it was as easy to play outside of the friction circle as it is in this game, we'd all be stars. All of which means there's much less of a learning curve for people to get up to say, 98% speed, and users will find themselves crashing a lot less. The flip side is that driving NSR is much less involving than in NR2003. The limit is much more narrowly defined in NR2003 but the game gives much better feedback on where it is exactly, so that you know when you're approaching it and have the drama of trying to tiptoe JUST on the safe side of losing it. Flirting with disaster, if you get my drift. In it's favor, NSR should be more accessible to a wider audience than NR2003, as many are not prepared to or interested in getting on top of a sim the way post-GPL Papy sims require. And who knows; EA/Tiburon may have hit the difficulty level in the sweet spot for the wide acceptance they want. I mean, we in RAS tend to think of Papy's Nascar efforts as big sellers, but they're market pipsqueaks in EA terms. Am I incorrect in thinking Papy Nascar games didn't sell as well after adopting the GPL physics engine? My guess is NSR's exactly what they wanted it to be; real enough to call a sim (which is certainly is), but not so much so that it turns people off. EA wants to sell a boatload of these games to recoup the licensing fees and they know that folks like us are in the distinct minority. So they've tilted it a little in the easy fun direction, which means there's hard fun to be had in it. Guess I'm more of a hard fun guy. SB

Steve Blankenship wrote: ... > Fair enough Achim Indeed, NSR errs a tad on the side of 'user friendliness' for my personal liking as well. However, as you've outlined, the settings are there, it only takes someone to use them. What I was getting at was a lot more simple, though. I think you'll have noticed that as well, but I am under the impression that NSR combines Papy's excellent tire deformation model with ISI's highly sophisticated suspension (and transmission, as you outlined) model, plus the configurability ISI sims have always had. I.e., NSR is a hybrid of a new class, combining the previously strictly separated highlights from two worlds. In its default state, NSR may not meet the expectations of hardcore simmers, but if the above is true, it is a respectable simulation with interesting potential. I don't like excessive copy protection either (although I don't have a prob with it on my machine), but NSR may be a little gem in the physics and modding department and should be given a very close look before discarding it lightheartedly. Achim

Steve Blankenship wrote: ... > Fair enough Achim NSR errs a tad on the side of 'user friendliness' for my personal liking as well, but as you've outlined, the settings are there, it just takes someone to use them. That said, what I was getting at at was that I am under the impression that NSR, on top of having the highly detailed suspension and chassis model plus the configurability of ISI sims, has a tire deformation model that seems to be as sophisticated as that of N2k3. If I'm right, NSR combines two assets which previously had been strictly separated, which makes it a pretty interesting simulation in the physics department. Everybody is entitled to their opinions, but I think in the best interest of the simming community, NSR should not be discarded lightheartedly. It might have hidden potential which deserves to be discovered, and used. Achim

"Steve Blankenship" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > >So they've tilted it a little in the easy fun direction, which means >there's hard fun to be had in it. Guess I'm more of a hard fun guy. > > SB Jeez, I really should proofread before I send this junk! Meant to say "there's LESS hard fun to be had in it ". Better now...

"Joachim Trensz" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > Steve Blankenship wrote: > ... > > Fair enough Achim > > Indeed, NSR errs a tad on the side of 'user friendliness' for my personalliking > as well. However, as you've outlined, the settings are there, it onlytakes > someone to use them. > > What I was getting at was a lot more simple, though. I think you'll havenoticed > that as well, but I am under the impression that NSR combines Papy'sexcellent > tire deformation model with ISI's highly sophisticated suspension (and > transmission, as you outlined) model, plus the configurability ISI simshave > always had. > > I.e., NSR is a hybrid of a new class, combining the previously strictly > separated highlights from two worlds. > > In its default state, NSR may not meet the expectations of hardcoresimmers, but > if the above is true, it is a respectable simulation with interestingpotential. > > I don't like excessive copy protection either (although I don't have aprob with > it on my machine), but NSR may be a little gem in the physics and modding > department and should be given a very close look before discarding it > lightheartedly. > > Achim Dunno. I've never had a look at the guts of Papy's tire model, and the TBC files in NSR look just about like they did in prior iterations with the ISI engine. Don't have any old NT files handy for comparing values, but they have the same inputs as rFactor save for multiple slipcurves, which the old model could do anyway. So all I can say about the tire model v. Papy's is that it's too forgiving and the car feels really dead as a result of it. That was actually the first thing I noticed about it after driving it right after NR2003; the Papy car just feels so much more lively while the NSR car just feels very damped and dull. Unlike some, I have no issue with copy protection or with EA or Tiburon for making the game the way they see fit, and generally ignore all the marketing hype anyway. But it escapes me how any end user can say this thing advances the genre over NR2003 in any way whatsoever. Did some online racing with it last night, and it was an all around poorer experience in my view. A matchmaking service that can't even compete with the old version of VROC for functionality, and even more warping than I see in NR2003 - this with 100% broadband users. The shallower learning curve and the fact that you can bang into each other without much effect will no doubt please some, but not moi. And that turbo draft... I bought NSR yesterday just to muck around with it and see what could be made of it, but unlike some others, the more time I've spent with it to date the less I think of it. That may change, but I have to say I'm thoroughly unimpressed so far. Hope I run across something to change that. SB

Steve Blankenship wrote: ... > ...I've never had a look at the guts of Papy's tire model Well, of course it isn't Papy's tire deformation model, but it feels like it. The forgiving stuff you're dissatisfied with is a very forgiving slip curve, and that's something that's easily cured in the config files by altering a few numbers in the slip curves (well, a few - it's 10 minutes of typing). But the basic thing is, it feels like a pretty good tire _deformation_ model, and that is something really complex to program for all I know. So, having that in is quite something. Achim

"Joachim Trensz" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > Steve Blankenship wrote: > ... > > ...I've never had a look at the guts of Papy's tire model > > Well, of course it isn't Papy's tire deformation model, but it feels likeit. > > The forgiving stuff you're dissatisfied with is a very forgiving slipcurve, and > that's something that's easily cured in the config files by altering a few > numbers in the slip curves (well, a few - it's 10 minutes of typing). > > But the basic thing is, it feels like a pretty good tire _deformation_model, > and that is something really complex to program for all I know. So, havingthat > in is quite something. > > Achim Gotcha; just meant it didn't feel like Papy's tire model to me. I actually graphed and tweaked the slipcurves in the demo and messed with the dropoff function to create a less forgiving tire, which in concert with power-side locking of the rear diff did make the cars more edgy and rewarding to drive. But with all the talk about the demo physics being an old build and not representative of the final build I just thought I'd wait and see what the final looked like. Not all that much different. Wish I'd saved some of the demo physics files to compare values! As delivered, the thing that came to mind was that it felt about like Nascar Heat in terms of feedback. I'll have to reinstall that one for comparison though, as Heat hasn't been installed in a while... ;-) But yeah, it is the same basic tire model as other recent ISI products (and the previous Nascar Thunder games), which is to say it's a complex and well-thought-out one. The game does have a solid physics engine under it, so there's no reason it couldn't deliver a GTR-level driving experience with the right variables in there. But since everyone's files have to match for online playing, the fix would pretty much have to occur at the company level and I have trouble seeing that happen. I think they're aiming elsewhere. SB

Steve Blankenship wrote:

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> "Joachim Trensz" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... >> Steve Blankenship wrote: >> ... >> > ...I've never had a look at the guts of Papy's tire model >> >> Well, of course it isn't Papy's tire deformation model, but it feels like > it. >> >> The forgiving stuff you're dissatisfied with is a very forgiving slip > curve, and >> that's something that's easily cured in the config files by altering a >> few numbers in the slip curves (well, a few - it's 10 minutes of typing). >> >> But the basic thing is, it feels like a pretty good tire _deformation_ > model, >> and that is something really complex to program for all I know. So, >> having > that >> in is quite something. >> >> Achim > > Gotcha; just meant it didn't feel like Papy's tire model to me. I > actually graphed and tweaked the slipcurves in the demo and messed with > the dropoff function to create a less forgiving tire, which in concert > with power-side locking of the rear diff did make the cars more edgy and > rewarding to drive. But with all the talk about the demo physics being an > old build and not representative of the final build I just thought I'd > wait and see what the > final looked like. Not all that much different. Wish I'd saved some of > the > demo physics files to compare values! As delivered, the thing that came > to > mind was that it felt about like Nascar Heat in terms of feedback. I'll > have to reinstall that one for comparison though, as Heat hasn't been > installed in a while... ;-) > > But yeah, it is the same basic tire model as other recent ISI products > (and the previous Nascar Thunder games), which is to say it's a complex > and > well-thought-out one. The game does have a solid physics engine under it, > so there's no reason it couldn't deliver a GTR-level driving experience > with > the right variables in there. But since everyone's files have to match > for online playing, the fix would pretty much have to occur at the company > level > and I have trouble seeing that happen. I think they're aiming elsewhere. > > SB

Im still in absolute disbelief in the poor reception to GTR. The demo2 really sets the standard high yet still almost nothing from this group, a SIMULATION newsgroup. Half the people that come here need to go back to their arcade roots and leave the sims to the men ;) Mitch -- Remove "nospam." to reply. SuSE 9.2 Pro KDE 3.3.2a

"Mitch_A" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:yA3Sd.1818$[email hidden]...

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> > Im still in absolute disbelief in the poor reception to GTR. The demo2 > really sets the standard high yet still almost nothing from this group, a > SIMULATION newsgroup. Half the people that come here need to go back to > their arcade roots and leave the sims to the men ;) > > Mitch

That'll probably change when it hits worldwide release; as it is the buzz is sort of trickling out rather than hitting all at once. The original leaked press release did make quite a splash here. But to be honest, some of it has to do with the buggy and problematic nature of that generation of ISI engine. Took me tons of tweaking to get the bloody thing to run halfway decent on my box, which runs all non-ISI sims (and even rFactor) just fine. And now NSR is looking like another tweak-fest. The first thing I noticed before even running it was that I had to tweak the 3D config util to get all my video resolutions, just as with the demo. I have sympathy for the developers though, it's a ton of work to put one of these games together, even one that uses middleware to get there, ala GTR and NSR. I think the difference between those two says all you need to know about the developer's focus and intent. SB

"Joachim Trensz" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > Steve Blankenship wrote: > ... > > ...I've never had a look at the guts of Papy's tire model > > Well, of course it isn't Papy's tire deformation model, but it feels likeit. > > The forgiving stuff you're dissatisfied with is a very forgiving slipcurve, and > that's something that's easily cured in the config files by altering a few > numbers in the slip curves (well, a few - it's 10 minutes of typing). > > But the basic thing is, it feels like a pretty good tire _deformation_model, > and that is something really complex to program for all I know. So, havingthat > in is quite something. > > Achim Just had to have another look. ;-) FWIW, I had some old data in Excel to compare to the current stuff, and the as-shipped NSR lateral slipcurve is considerably less forgiving than the curves in rFactor, or any previous ISI sim or mod I had numbers for, including the original GTR2002. Can't read the current GTR data, but as for the overly forgiving slidey nature of NSR, it's coming from elsewhere in the tire model. I mucked with the latpeak and longpeak numbers in the demo to tweak it as that appears to affect the sliprange where peak force occurs. And the range in NSR is considerably wider than rFactor for those variables. Need to poke around in there some more. Interesting stuff... SB

Steve Blankenship wrote: ...

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> Just had to have another look. ;-) > > FWIW, I had some old data in Excel to compare to the current stuff, and the > as-shipped NSR lateral slipcurve is considerably less forgiving than the > curves in rFactor, or any previous ISI sim or mod I had numbers for, > including the original GTR2002. Can't read the current GTR data, but as for > the overly forgiving slidey nature of NSR, it's coming from elsewhere in the > tire model. I mucked with the latpeak and longpeak numbers in the demo to > tweak it as that appears to affect the sliprange where peak force occurs. > And the range in NSR is considerably wider than rFactor for those variables. > Need to poke around in there some more. Interesting stuff...

Yep, but a slipcurve cannot be seen isolated from the other tire parameters. If I wanted to mod the _tires_ for less forgiving slides in NSR, I'd mod the slip curve. Achim

Joachim Trensz wrote: ... > Yep, but a slipcurve cannot be seen isolated from the other tire > parameters. If I wanted to mod the _tires_ for less forgiving slides in > NSR, I'd mod the slip curve. I forgot to add that the slipcurves probably interact, and Lat curve probably cannot be looked at alone. Achim

"Joachim Trensz" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> Joachim Trensz wrote: > ... > > Yep, but a slipcurve cannot be seen isolated from the other tire > > parameters. If I wanted to mod the _tires_ for less forgiving slides in > > NSR, I'd mod the slip curve. > > I forgot to add that the slipcurves probably interact, and Lat curve

probably > cannot be looked at alone. > > Achim Definitely there are multiple factors involved, and I haven't spent enough much time messing around with ISI tire models to get a feel for how they respond. Just wanted to point out that save for GTR (which I can't see into) the NSR lateral slipcurve looks considerably less forgiving than any other ISI curve I've yet seen. The longitudinal and braking curves are much softer and look more like the other ISI slipcurves I've seen - rounded peaks with gradual, initially convex shapes after peak, where the NSR curve has a sharp peak and then falls off much quicker in a concave shape. They're ALL identical pre-peak. The thing I'm looking for in the NSR tire model that I don't feel now is how the tires will load up as they near peak cornering force and then let go. The edge of grip seems very soft and fuzzy now, though the sharply peaked slipcurve would suggest something altogether different. So that's why I think one of the other grip modifiers is where to look for the answer. All academic of course, since you have to race online with compatible files. SB

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> > But yeah, it is the same basic tire model as other recent ISI products (and > the previous Nascar Thunder games), which is to say it's a complex and > well-thought-out one. The game does have a solid physics engine under it, > so there's no reason it couldn't deliver a GTR-level driving experience with > the right variables in there. But since everyone's files have to match for > online playing, the fix would pretty much have to occur at the company level > and I have trouble seeing that happen. I think they're aiming elsewhere. > > SB > >

Do you think someone like OLR could manipulate the physics so it is not so dumbed down and they could release a "patch" or config file to all its members so they could have a more realistic experience? Or would this be prevented by the license agreement or whatnot? Thanks, Kerry

"Uwe Sch�rkamp" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> On 18 Feb 2005 14:28:37 -0800, [email hidden] wrote: >> Why on earth should they be embarassed??? >> >> Nascar SimRacing is the new definitive Nascar simulation. > > You keep repeating this statement here in this group like it's your life's > mantra, yet fail to back it up with facts or comments where you think > NSR excels all other previous NASCAR sims. Care to enlighten us in > this regard, please? > > Cheers & looking forward to hear from you, > > uwe

Well, it's better tha Nascar Revolution:o) Tim