On Thu, 27 Jul 2000 22:25:42 +0100, Martin D. Pay
<[email hidden]> wrote:
Martin,
Yes. There are pockets of interest (and will be more once we get
our GP back this fall), but right now it makes CART or even the IRL
look popular. ;)
>So, is the lack of
>on-line racing in GC's F1 games simply his recognition of the
>fact that most of the world doesn't get free 'phone calls to
>their ISPs?
I did a little research on the league I'm part of, the GPL World
Series (http://www.kazart.com/gpl/gplws). There are 73 drivers in the
series, distributed as follows:
U.S. 34
Canada 8
Europe 28
others 3
Europeans were led by 6 in the UK; 4 in the Netherlands; 3 each in
Germany, Hungary, and Italy; 2 each in Finland and France; 1 each in
Spain, Slovenia, Norway, and Scotland.
So while this U.S.-based series is numerically dominated by North
American drivers, there is a good representation of European
competitors. (And consider that its difficult to come up with race
times to satisfy both sides of the Atlantic, which reduces Euro
participation.) Someone must enjoy online racing enough to pay the
phone bills... :)
OTOH, I can sympathize, as I didn't participate in online racing on
Papyrus's NASCAR/Hawaii back when it required paying long-distance
charges (and beta testers racking up monthly phone bills of $200-300).
:(
>I've often wondered about playing various games on-line, against
>non-AI opponents - but there's no way I can afford to indulge
>that interest.
It's really great. Once you get started, you find that racing
against the AI is a rather sterile experience. Which is one reason
many of us are disappointed with GP3.
"But in a way, fear is a big part of racing, because if there was
nothing to be frightened of, and no limit, any fool could get into
a motor car and racing would not exist as a sport." -- Jim Clark
First retail impressions of GP3 and modern F1 handling
Chris Wright, who had defended Crammond, found the retail GP3 to have an almost arcade feel despite good elements. Others argued that modern F1 cars genuinely need little steering correction compared with 1967 cars, and debated how drivers from different eras would fare in each other's cars. Interest in F1 and online racing in the USA was also discussed.
Automated summary.
> of years ago - and got out ecstatic - at how easy the cars were to
> drive now, and how much more you could concentrate on racing as
> against driving your own car...
You can tell this from the in-car camera in a modern F1 car. During a
race, when the driver is driving at a reasonable pace, the steering wheel
deflection is purely to steer the car along its chosen path. There is no
correction of the steering, no opposite lock unless a mistake is made.
Contrast this with a car with more power than grip e.g. 50's or 60's GP
car. Even when the car is driven smoothly, the driver will be rapidly
moving the wheel from positive to opposite lock as he balances the car,
drifting through the corner.
With the modern car there is far more emphasis on the driver being
pinpoint accurate with the timing of his control inputs, especially as
the corners come at him that much faster, and the braking distances are
so much shorter.
- Michael
On Thu, 27 Jul 2000 12:54:50 +0200, "Ed Solheim" <[email hidden]>
mangled uncounted electrons thus:
<snip>
>2. No online-racing.... (how "he" could miss that one, is beyond me...
>Wake you Crammond - we're living in the 21st century now!!)
Y'know, I'm puzzled by the whole on-line racing thing. I *know*
it's a big part of GPL's appeal to folks hereabouts, but I would
be interested to know...
The USA doesn't have the interest in Formula 1 that exists in
Europe and elsewhere in the world, true? So, is the lack of
on-line racing in GC's F1 games simply his recognition of the
fact that most of the world doesn't get free 'phone calls to
their ISPs?
I've often wondered about playing various games on-line, against
non-AI opponents - but there's no way I can afford to indulge
that interest.
Martin D. Pay
Just my 2 penn'orth...
On Thu, 27 Jul 2000 12:09:59 +0100, "Richard S Beckett"
<[email hidden]> mangled uncounted electrons thus:
<snip>
>Would a modern F1 racing car feel a bit arcadeish when compared to one from GPL's era?
>
>I have a feeling it might. Especially until you attained enough skill to drive it close enough to the limit.
<EG> I've taken to wondering recently what would happen if you
were to put Michael Schumacher - generally acknowledged as the
best driver today - in one of those 1967 cars...
Martin D. Pay
Suspects Schuey wouldn't be a happy chappie... ^_-
Jon Beckett wrote:
Which is where GPx scores so highly with me. I have GPL, and love driving it,
but I can't sustain it for more than a couple of laps. GPx alllows me to find
a limit, and drive to it, if I need to push for a couple of laps, I can do
so, but with the attendant risk of overcooking it. Now with the advent of the
weather I can also back-off to save the race The RACE is now what is
important, not the minutiae of driving.
I had no expectations of GP3 being anything but an upgrade to GP2, and this
has been achieved with aplomb. OK, it took four years, but I just went and
did something else while I waited.
Cheers,
Gareth Evans
>
>
> Jonathan Beckett
> [email hidden]
> www.btinternet.com/~jonbeckett
Quoted text (7 lines)
> >Would a modern F1 racing car feel a bit arcadeish when compared to one = > >from GPL's era? > > One of the drivers from the 70s (Reutemann?) had a go in one a couple > of years ago - and got out ecstatic - at how easy the cars were to > drive now, and how much more you could concentrate on racing as > against driving your own car...>Would a modern F1 racing car feel a bit arcadeish when compared to one =
>from GPL's era?
One of the drivers from the 70s (Reutemann?) had a go in one a couple
of years ago - and got out ecstatic - at how easy the cars were to
drive now, and how much more you could concentrate on racing as
against driving your own car...
Jonathan Beckett
[email hidden]
www.btinternet.com/~jonbeckett
Yeahh, I think it was at the Argentine GP in 95 or 96 he set a time
only a couple of seconds of pole IIRC
Regards Mike
On Thu, 27 Jul 2000 13:44:24 GMT, [email hidden] (Jon Beckett)
wrote:
Quoted text (13 lines)
>>Would a modern F1 racing car feel a bit arcadeish when compared to one = >>from GPL's era? > >One of the drivers from the 70s (Reutemann?) had a go in one a couple >of years ago - and got out ecstatic - at how easy the cars were to >drive now, and how much more you could concentrate on racing as >against driving your own car... > > > >Jonathan Beckett >[email hidden] >www.btinternet.com/~jonbeckettIn article <8lp0f5$j07$[email hidden]>, Chris Wright wrote:
Snip
>
> - Unique implementation of force feedback, which successfully replicates the
> car "pulling" in tight corners
>
Do you mean the way the Steering Wheel snaps towards
full lock? Mostly on left hand corners?
Seb
Have managed to get a copy this morning (not at EB as my earlier post might
indicate, but the retailer will remain nameless however).
Having vigorously defended Team Crammond on these pages over the last few
days, my initial reaction is that although some elements of the game are
excellent, it has an almost arcade feel in comparison to, wait for it guys,
wonderful old GPL.
That said, there is much to commend GP3 for. Perhaps the best thing about it
is that it hasn't been written as an elitist game for high end PC users
only. Even modest machines are going to do it justice - a triumph of both
sense and marketing, don't you think, in comparison to the snail races we
endured when GPL arrived on the scene.
Nonetheless, some things are absolutely unforgiveable: -
- As warez users indicated, there is no sound from other cars at all, which
creates an extremely detached feeling at times (cannot find anything to
adjust in the options on this - have I got this right?).
- The "hover cars" in pit lane look totally ridiculous
- The frame rate is clearly limited by the old basic game engine, where the
feeling of speed on long straights is not what it should be. In these days
of 80fps+ in Quake 3, 25.6fps just doesn't cut the mustard (I believe that
someone has already written a tweak to overcome this).
I will not get into the numbers game of what my system is, other than to say
processor occupancy is well within limits when this lack of speed is
apparent.
- Replays are also limited by the age of the basic engine.
- No safety car, pit stop penalties etc.
Now for what I really like about the game: -
- Excellent driving feel which builds on GP2's reputation in this area
- Fabulous weather implementation
- Crash sequences can be frighteningly violent
- Unique implementation of force feedback, which successfully replicates the
car "pulling" in tight corners
- Steering wheel console is an "industry standard"
- The Alps in the distance at Monza at last appear in a game...
Clearly there is much to discover and I will now take my time to get to know
GP3 over the next few evenings and will do another post on Sunday to give a
more considered view.
I shall very much look forward to reading everyone else's opinions on r.a.s
over the next few days.
On Thu, 27 Jul 2000 12:54:50 +0200, "Ed Solheim" <[email hidden]> thus
spoke:
I believe he was talking about the amount of information provided by
the cockpit steering wheel console.
--
Nos
Quoted text (7 lines)
>I really hope you're NOT referring to the controller-setup screen here... >(?) - 'cause if it's still the same that was in the "beta" (and GP2), I >completely disagree with you.. The controller setup in GP3 is damn right >stupid. It takes ages to setup a wheel and the fact that you have to guess >what button goes where - instead of just selecting the comman you want and >then depressing the button you want to control it - dont help much. Not to >mention that non-exsisting support for split-axis.spoke:
I believe he was talking about the amount of information provided by
the***pit steering wheel console.
--
Nos
"Chris Wright" wrote:
> Having vigorously defended Team Crammond on these pages over the last few
> days, my initial reaction is that although some elements of the game are
> excellent, it has an almost arcade feel in comparison to, wait for itguys,
> wonderful old GPL.<SNIP!>
I must say I really admire you for "eating your own words" Chris... must
feel very bitter I reckon.
> - Steering wheel console is an "industry standard"
I really hope you're NOT referring to the controller-setup screen here...
(?) - 'cause if it's still the same that was in the "beta" (and GP2), I
completely disagree with you.. The controller setup in GP3 is damn right
stupid. It takes ages to setup a wheel and the fact that you have to guess
what button goes where - instead of just selecting the comman you want and
then depressing the button you want to control it - dont help much. Not to
mention that non-exsisting support for split-axis.
I for one, wont buy GP3 no-matter how good it is tho... for 2 reasons;
1. I have no plans to put even more money into Bernie's pocket... - besides
F1 is so dull anyway.
2. No online-racing.... (how "he" could miss that one, is beyond me...
Wake you Crammond - we're living in the 21st century now!!)
Ed_
On Thu, 27 Jul 2000 10:47:21 +0100 Chris Wright <[email hidden]> wrote:
% That said, there is much to commend GP3 for. Perhaps the best thing about it
% is that it hasn't been written as an elitist game for high end PC users
% only. Even modest machines are going to do it justice - a triumph of both
% sense and marketing, don't you think, in comparison to the snail races we
% endured when GPL arrived on the scene.
Or simply using code that was written in 1994 and not pressing the
envelope and upping the ante....
% Nonetheless, some things are absolutely unforgiveable: -
% - As warez users indicated, there is no sound from other cars at all, which
% creates an extremely detached feeling at times (cannot find anything to
% adjust in the options on this - have I got this right?).
Artistic license (that's the way Geoff wants it)....
% - The "hover cars" in pit lane look totally ridiculous
Using CART style airjacks <G>
% - The frame rate is clearly limited by the old basic game engine, where the
% feeling of speed on long straights is not what it should be. In these days
% of 80fps+ in Quake 3, 25.6fps just doesn't cut the mustard (I believe that
% someone has already written a tweak to overcome this).
Again using the same code that was written in 1994. :(
--
**************************** Michael E. Carver *************************
Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town.
[email hidden] http://www.teleport.com/~mcarver
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./. [- < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
On Thu, 27 Jul 2000 14:47:14 GMT, "Michael E. Carver"
[email hidden] wrote:
Well, I said it in another thread already. GP3 has now 6 degrees of
freedom. I have absolutely no idea, but maybe this transition from GP2
wasn't that *obvious* at all? It might feel the same because GC wanted
it to feel similar, but it could still be different under the hood
(the physics)?
JoH
Quoted text (10 lines)
>On Thu, 27 Jul 2000 10:47:21 +0100 Chris Wright <[email hidden]> wrote: > >% That said, there is much to commend GP3 for. Perhaps the best thing about it >% is that it hasn't been written as an elitist game for high end PC users >% only. Even modest machines are going to do it justice - a triumph of both >% sense and marketing, don't you think, in comparison to the snail races we >% endured when GPL arrived on the scene. > >Or simply using code that was written in 1994 and not pressing the >envelope and upping the ante....In article <[email hidden]>, Rrevved wrote:
> On Thu, 27 Jul 2000 12:13:40 +0100, Wooky <[email hidden]> wrote:
> <snip>
>
> My Force RS doesn't do that.
>
Seems to happen most on the MSFF. I have my Ferrari Wheel now
and with a bit of adjustment it is fine.
BTW they used Ferrari wheels during testing.
[email hidden]
On Thu, 27 Jul 2000 12:54:50 +0200, "Ed Solheim" <[email hidden]> wrote:
>I for one, wont buy GP3 no-matter how good it is tho... for 2 reasons;
>1. I have no plans to put even more money into Bernie's pocket... - besides
>F1 is so dull anyway.
Geez you got that right. I used to not DARE miss F1-races several
years ago. Now, it's just so DULL! For me, too many rules, regs, and
safety concerns have wrecked it. I appreciate the safety concerns too.
To me, F1 should be flat-out/full-blown RADICAL racing, and it's not
anymore.
On Thu, 27 Jul 2000 10:47:21 +0100, "Chris Wright"
<[email hidden]> wrote:
>- The frame rate is clearly limited by the old basic game engine, where the
>feeling of speed on long straights is not what it should be. <<<<<<<<<<
I'd guess (99.9999% sure) GP3 is the old GP2 game-engine.
Anyway, thanks for some retail-info on GP3.
Martin, isn't there any way you could get a free-call ISP? I'm sort of
assuming that you're here in the UK (I may be wide of the mark) and they're
here, you just have to nose 'em out. I've been on the Telewest one now for
about three months and after a few teething problems, couldn't be happier.
If you've not sampled an online race, you haven't lived! <exaggeration>
If you need any pointers, give me a shout.
--
Colin Harris
ColinHarris in N3/NL and VROC
Bomber Racing: http://fullspeed.to/Bomber
ICQ 25485061
Martin D. Pay <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
> On Thu, 27 Jul 2000 12:54:50 +0200, "Ed Solheim" <[email hidden]>
> mangled uncounted electrons thus:
>
> <snip>
>
> >2. No online-racing.... (how "he" could miss that one, is beyond me...
> >Wake you Crammond - we're living in the 21st century now!!)
>
> Y'know, I'm puzzled by the whole on-line racing thing. I *know*
> it's a big part of GPL's appeal to folks hereabouts, but I would
> be interested to know...
>
> The USA doesn't have the interest in Formula 1 that exists in
> Europe and elsewhere in the world, true? So, is the lack of
> on-line racing in GC's F1 games simply his recognition of the
> fact that most of the world doesn't get free 'phone calls to
> their ISPs?
>
> I've often wondered about playing various games on-line, against
> non-AI opponents - but there's no way I can afford to indulge
> that interest.
>
> Martin D. Pay
> Just my 2 penn'orth...
On Thu, 27 Jul 2000 22:16:08 GMT, "Colin Harris"
<[email hidden]> mangled uncounted
electrons thus:
>Martin, isn't there any way you could get a free-call ISP? I'm sort of
>assuming that you're here in the UK (I may be wide of the mark) and they're
>here, you just have to nose 'em out. I've been on the Telewest one now for
>about three months and after a few teething problems, couldn't be happier.
>If you've not sampled an online race, you haven't lived! <exaggeration>
Oh, indeed - I do realise that they're becoming more common now
in the UK. My ISP is introducing a free-call service next month;
I'm just waiting for them to publish the details.
Telewest exist in my road, but I've had 2 abortive attempts at
getting a 'phone installation from them (lack of capacity the
first time, 3 missed appointments the next - I decided that if
that was their level of reliability I could live without them).
> If you need any pointers, give me a shout.
Thanks...
Martin D. Pay
Doesn't really have time for on-line racing ATM
In article <8lp0f5$j07$[email hidden]>, "Chris Wright"
<[email hidden]> writes:
Why not? Any info that might help you or others can't hurt... Why so
*secretive*?
Eldred
--
Tiger Stadium R.I.P. 1912-1999
Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett
GPL hcp. +69.01
Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you
with experience...
Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.
Quoted text (7 lines)
>- The frame rate is clearly limited by the old basic game engine, where the >feeling of speed on long straights is not what it should be. In these days >of 80fps+ in Quake 3, 25.6fps just doesn't cut the mustard (I believe that >someone has already written a tweak to overcome this). >I will not get into the numbers game of what my system is, other than to say >processor occupancy is well within limits when this lack of speed is >apparent.In article <[email hidden]>, jan.no-
[email hidden] says...
> Micheal Schumacher vs Stirling Moss in equal machinery in the rain might be
> worth watching too.
If it was racing on a road circuit like the Mille Miglia, there is no
question that Moss (in his prime) would be much, much faster. No modern-
day driver would either accept the level of risk that Moss took as just
part of the job.
- Michael
Hmmm probably, it would "feel" and look a heck of a lot better than GP3
though, IMO. And be real time too.
Jan.
=---
clone wrote...
> Although you have some good points, arcadey is not one of
> them. I have a feeling that if you used the GPL engine to
> simulate F1 and not tell anyone (ie change the graphics
> and the such, so to be unrecognizable) people would say
> that it felt a bit arcadey (ie stick to the track a
> bit much).
Although you have some good points, arcadey is not one of them. I have
a feeling that if you used the GPL engine to simulate F1 and not tell
anyone (ie change the graphics and the such, so to be unrecognizable)
people would say that it felt a bit arcadey (ie stick to the track a
bit much).
On Thu, 27 Jul 2000 10:47:21 +0100, "Chris Wright"
<[email hidden]> wrote:
Quoted text (58 lines)
>Have managed to get a copy this morning (not at EB as my earlier post might >indicate, but the retailer will remain nameless however). > >Having vigorously defended Team Crammond on these pages over the last few >days, my initial reaction is that although some elements of the game are >excellent, it has an almost arcade feel in comparison to, wait for it guys, >wonderful old GPL. > >That said, there is much to commend GP3 for. Perhaps the best thing about it >is that it hasn't been written as an elitist game for high end PC users >only. Even modest machines are going to do it justice - a triumph of both >sense and marketing, don't you think, in comparison to the snail races we >endured when GPL arrived on the scene. > >Nonetheless, some things are absolutely unforgiveable: - > >- As warez users indicated, there is no sound from other cars at all, which >creates an extremely detached feeling at times (cannot find anything to >adjust in the options on this - have I got this right?). > >- The "hover cars" in pit lane look totally ridiculous > >- The frame rate is clearly limited by the old basic game engine, where the >feeling of speed on long straights is not what it should be. In these days >of 80fps+ in Quake 3, 25.6fps just doesn't cut the mustard (I believe that >someone has already written a tweak to overcome this). >I will not get into the numbers game of what my system is, other than to say >processor occupancy is well within limits when this lack of speed is >apparent. > >- Replays are also limited by the age of the basic engine. > >- No safety car, pit stop penalties etc. > > >Now for what I really like about the game: - > >- Excellent driving feel which builds on GP2's reputation in this area > >- Fabulous weather implementation > >- Crash sequences can be frighteningly violent > >- Unique implementation of force feedback, which successfully replicates the >car "pulling" in tight corners > >- Steering wheel console is an "industry standard" > >- The Alps in the distance at Monza at last appear in a game... > > >Clearly there is much to discover and I will now take my time to get to know >GP3 over the next few evenings and will do another post on Sunday to give a >more considered view. > >I shall very much look forward to reading everyone else's opinions on r.a.s >over the next few days. >Depends... if MS was the only one in the race without aero, maybe,
otherwhise I would say we'd be in for a spectacle not seen since the
original drivers of the cars were at the peak of their careers.
Micheal Schumacher vs Stirling Moss in equal machinery in the rain might be
worth watching too.
Jan.
=---
Martin D. Pay wrote...
Quoted text (8 lines)
> <snip> > > <EG> I've taken to wondering recently what would happen if > you were to put Michael Schumacher - generally acknowledged > as the best driver today - in one of those 1967 cars... > > Martin D. Pay > Suspects Schuey wouldn't be a happy chappie... ^_-"Martin D. Pay" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
> The USA doesn't have the interest in Formula 1 that exists in
> Europe and elsewhere in the world, true? So, is the lack of
Somewhat yes. However the USGP will be at Indy this year.
I have 4 tickets in the Paddock Penthouse right on the S/F
line across the pits. The last I heard all of the assigned seating
is sold out... I am figuring that means 250,000-300,000 people
will attend that race. Probably very close to the numbers for
the NASCAR race there.
> on-line racing in GC's F1 games simply his recognition of the
> fact that most of the world doesn't get free 'phone calls to
> their ISPs?
Nope. He attempted online modem/modem play in world curcuit
and GP2. Both suck and sucked badly and it was obvious he
has no idea how to program it. If he is programming in assembly
that could be the problem right there.
> I've often wondered about playing various games on-line, against
> non-AI opponents - but there's no way I can afford to indulge
> that interest.
There are plenty other people who can. That certainly isn't
the problem.
--
[email hidden]
> Martin D. Pay
> Just my 2 penn'orth...
There is alot of people in this Ng who are eating their words about their
comments toward the people that have the warez copy. The warez version is 8
week code. Beta, Crammond would never release a product in this state!!!
LOL!!!!
Ed Solheim wrote:
Quoted text (30 lines)
> "Chris Wright" wrote: > > > Having vigorously defended Team Crammond on these pages over the last few > > days, my initial reaction is that although some elements of the game are > > excellent, it has an almost arcade feel in comparison to, wait for it > guys, > > wonderful old GPL. > <SNIP!> > > I must say I really admire you for "eating your own words" Chris... must > feel very bitter I reckon. > > > - Steering wheel console is an "industry standard" > > I really hope you're NOT referring to the controller-setup screen here... > (?) - 'cause if it's still the same that was in the "beta" (and GP2), I > completely disagree with you.. The controller setup in GP3 is damn right > stupid. It takes ages to setup a wheel and the fact that you have to guess > what button goes where - instead of just selecting the comman you want and > then depressing the button you want to control it - dont help much. Not to > mention that non-exsisting support for split-axis. > > I for one, wont buy GP3 no-matter how good it is tho... for 2 reasons; > 1. I have no plans to put even more money into Bernie's pocket... - besides > F1 is so dull anyway. > > 2. No online-racing.... (how "he" could miss that one, is beyond me... > Wake you Crammond - we're living in the 21st century now!!) > > Ed_I have a Force Rs also it it doesn't that either. I love this wheel!!!
rrevved wrote:
Quoted text (14 lines)
> On Thu, 27 Jul 2000 12:13:40 +0100, Wooky <[email hidden]> wrote: > > >In article <8lp0f5$j07$[email hidden]>, Chris Wright wrote: > > > >Snip > >> > >> - Unique implementation of force feedback, which successfully replicates the > >> car "pulling" in tight corners > >> > > > >Do you mean the way the Steering Wheel snaps towards > >full lock? Mostly on left hand corners? > > My Force RS doesn't do that.In article <8lp5a8$[email hidden]>, Richard S Beckett
<[email hidden]> writes
Too true, Its a bit like " Boo hoo my new Toyota MR2 Roadster does not
slide as much as my old Lotus Elan" I think the Toyota designers got it
wrong." Would people be surprised if a 1960's road car drove the same as
a 2000 one? no.
That said I suspect having driven both that GP3 is not as accurate a
simulation of Physics as GPL, that's why it will sell massively more
copies because its a more accessible "game"
Why is this a bad thing?
--
John Burton
