Re: GP3 / GPL Sales Figures

"Anthony Bulloch" wrote > Exactly. Mediocrity and lack of vision do not strengthen the breed. > A few more mainstream releases like this one and the future forracing > sims (as opposed to arcade racers) will be bleak. No, what strengthens the breed is a winner, which is exactly what the future of racing sims needs right now. We may want another revolutionary, ground breaking simulation, but what we need is a best seller to show developers that there is still a market for this genre. If GP3 fails, it isn't going to cause publishers to conclude that Crammond made a bad arcade game, so they should try to make more realistic games, it will force them to conclude that the market for realistic sims has dried up or moved on to NFS, RTS and FPS games like everyone else. We don't need another GPL, we have that, we need a best selling racing simulation - whether we like it or not is irrelevant.

I liken you statement to this classic one-liner... "1.5 billion flies can't be wrong... eat shit!" Like I said in the run-up to this non-event... the Crammond name has 'm queuing up like sheep to the slaughter. Sad. Jan. =--- Douglas Ellison wrote...

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> Going on what I've seen mentioned within this > char-grilled threads (that'll be all the excessive > flaming) - correct me if I'm wrong but... > > GP3 pre orders are something like 150,000 copies. > > GPL's total sales over a period of (what, 18 months > or so) is about 1/4 of that figure. > > I'm not passing judgemnt - just a statement on the > opinion of the masses compared to that of RAS. > Justification, if it were needed, for a little bit > of rationalisation. > > Flame away - I really don't care! > > Doug

You're comparing apples and oranges here. You cannot directly compare a niche market product with one that appeals to a much broader demographic. Comparing a simulation modeling 1967 Grand Prix cars, a breed of car most GP3 buyers were not alive to see, with Grand Prix 3, which includes the modern personas presently participating in the sport, is ineffective. That's a poorly written sentence, but I think you get my point. GPL was designed for the simulation enthusiast, Grand Prix 3 is designed for people who like Formula One. In article <8lq5gc$1q2$[email hidden]>, "Douglas Ellison" <[email hidden]> wrote: > Going on what I've seen mentioned within this char-grilled threads(that'll > be all the excessive flaming) - correct me if I'm wrong but... > > GP3 pre orders are something like 150,000 copies. > > GPL's total sales over a period of (what, 18 months or so) is about1/4 of > that figure. > > I'm not passing judgemnt - just a statement on the opinion of themasses > compared to that of RAS. Justification, if it were needed, for alittle bit

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> of rationalisation. > > Flame away - I really don't care! > > Doug > >

Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy.

Going on what I've seen mentioned within this char-grilled threads (that'll be all the excessive flaming) - correct me if I'm wrong but... GP3 pre orders are something like 150,000 copies. GPL's total sales over a period of (what, 18 months or so) is about 1/4 of that figure. I'm not passing judgemnt - just a statement on the opinion of the masses compared to that of RAS. Justification, if it were needed, for a little bit of rationalisation. Flame away - I really don't care! Doug

Why flame? You didn't really say anything. --

On Thu, 27 Jul 2000 13:06:22 +0100, "Douglas Ellison" <[email hidden]> wrote:

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>GP3 pre orders are something like 150,000 copies. > >GPL's total sales over a period of (what, 18 months or so) is about 1/4 of >that figure. > >I'm not passing judgemnt - just a statement on the opinion of the masses >compared to that of RAS. Justification, if it were needed, for a little bit >of rationalisation.

Nobody ever went broke underestimating the buying public's good taste or intelligence... Regards, Brett C. Cammack That's Racing! Motorsports Pompano Beach, FL

"Douglas Ellison" <[email hidden]> wrote > I'm not passing judgemnt - just a statement on the opinion of the masses > compared to that of RAS. Justification, if it were needed, for a littlebit > of rationalisation. Please don't ever judge entertainment (and art, somehow) with their sales figure. It would mean also that Titanic was a better movie than let's say... Citizen Kane or that Britney Spears's last album is better than Abraxas from Santana. -- -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> -- May the Downforce be with you... -- http://www.WeRace.net -- People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world.

On Thu, 27 Jul 2000 20:36:59 GMT, [email hidden] (Brett C. Cammack) wrote:

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>On Thu, 27 Jul 2000 13:06:22 +0100, "Douglas Ellison" ><[email hidden]> wrote: >>GP3 pre orders are something like 150,000 copies. >> >>GPL's total sales over a period of (what, 18 months or so) is about 1/4 of >>that figure. >> >>I'm not passing judgemnt - just a statement on the opinion of the masses >>compared to that of RAS. Justification, if it were needed, for a little bit >>of rationalisation. > >Nobody ever went broke underestimating the buying public's good taste >or intelligence...

Very true, but I suspect more than a few folks have gone broke trying to uplift the public's taste, appeal to their intelligence or talk them into accepting the value of a long learning curve. > >Regards, >Brett C. Cammack >That's Racing! Motorsports >Pompano Beach, FL Remove "hi" from address or it will bounce....

In article <8lq5gc$1q2$[email hidden]>, Douglas Ellison <douglas.ellison@spa mbigfoot.com> writes

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>Going on what I've seen mentioned within this char-grilled threads (that'll >be all the excessive flaming) - correct me if I'm wrong but... > >GP3 pre orders are something like 150,000 copies. > >GPL's total sales over a period of (what, 18 months or so) is about 1/4 of >that figure. > >I'm not passing judgemnt - just a statement on the opinion of the masses >compared to that of RAS. Justification, if it were needed, for a little bit >of rationalisation. > >Flame away - I really don't care! > >Doug > >

Shouldn't you be playing Deer Hunter? -- Peter Ives - (AKA Ivington) Remove ALL_STRESS before replying No person's opinions can be said to be more correct than another's, because each is the sole judge of his or her own experience.

Your stistics are correct sir. I doubt however that Ferrari sell 1/1000 the number of cars that Ford do every year. What point are you trying to make? MS "Douglas Ellison" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:8lq5gc$1q2$[email hidden]... > Going on what I've seen mentioned within this char-grilled threads(that'll

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> be all the excessive flaming) - correct me if I'm wrong but... > > GP3 pre orders are something like 150,000 copies. > > GPL's total sales over a period of (what, 18 months or so) is about 1/4 of > that figure. > > I'm not passing judgemnt - just a statement on the opinion of the masses > compared to that of RAS. Justification, if it were needed, for a little

bit

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> of rationalisation. > > Flame away - I really don't care! > > Doug > >

In article <8lq5gc$1q2$[email hidden]>, [email hidden] says... > GP3 pre orders are something like 150,000 copies. > > GPL's total sales over a period of (what, 18 months or so) is about 1/4 of > that figure. Unfortunately, you're right. Doesn't make GP3 a better game, though. I think a lot of those pre-orders are expecting a quantum leap between GP2 and GP3. They are going to be sadly disappointed. ( as I was. ) - Michael

"Douglas Ellison" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:8lq5gc$1q2$[email hidden]... > I'm not passing judgemnt - just a statement on the opinion of the masses > compared to that of RAS. Justification, if it were needed, for a littlebit > of rationalisation. > > Flame away - I really don't care! Why flame? You didn't really say anything. -- [email hidden]

Abraxas from Santana? Now there's a classic. NOT!! "ymenard" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:ew1g5.51640$[email hidden]...

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> "Douglas Ellison" <[email hidden]> wrote > > I'm not passing judgemnt - just a statement on the opinion of the masses > > compared to that of RAS. Justification, if it were needed, for a little > bit > > of rationalisation. > > > > Please don't ever judge entertainment (and art, somehow) with their sales > figure. It would mean also that Titanic was a better movie than let's > say... Citizen Kane or that Britney Spears's last album is better than > Abraxas from Santana. > > > > -- > -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> > -- May the Downforce be with you... > -- http://www.WeRace.net > -- People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't

realise > how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world. > > >

On Thu, 27 Jul 2000 21:08:00 GMT, [email hidden] wrote: >Very true, but I suspect more than a few folks have gone broke trying >to uplift the public's taste, appeal to their intelligence or talk >them into accepting the value of a long learning curve. Oh, absolutely! "Never attempt to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig!" <g> Regards, Brett C. Cammack That's Racing! Motorsports Pompano Beach, FL

It is in my book, I can't even begin to imagine what you must listen to if you can't appreciate Abraxas... No accounting for taste, I reckon... On Fri, 28 Jul 2000 00:29:50 GMT, "Todd Sorensen" <[email hidden]> wrote: >Abraxas from Santana? Now there's a classic. NOT!!

"Todd Sorensen" <[email hidden]> wrote > Abraxas from Santana? Now there's a classic. NOT!! <Hands on ears shouting "LALALALALALALALA!"> -- ;) -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> -- May the Downforce be with you... -- http://www.WeRace.net -- People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world.

On the other hand, Ferrari would probably thousands more cars than Ford, if Ferrari's were the same price as Fords. Given that GP3 and GPL are likely to be within a few pounds of each other I think there is a point to be made. That's not to say I'm suggesting that GP3 is the best (I haven't played it yet), but I do think your reply ignores a rather important factor Regards Chris m.seery <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:bv1g5.931$[email hidden]...

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> Your stistics are correct sir. > > I doubt however that Ferrari sell 1/1000 the number of cars that Ford do > every year. What point are you trying to make? > > MS > "Douglas Ellison" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:8lq5gc$1q2$[email hidden]... > > Going on what I've seen mentioned within this char-grilled threads > (that'll > > be all the excessive flaming) - correct me if I'm wrong but... > > > > GP3 pre orders are something like 150,000 copies. > > > > GPL's total sales over a period of (what, 18 months or so) is about 1/4

of

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> > that figure. > > > > I'm not passing judgemnt - just a statement on the opinion of the masses > > compared to that of RAS. Justification, if it were needed, for a little > bit > > of rationalisation. > > > > Flame away - I really don't care! > > > > Doug > > > > > >

Abraxas was ok. Moonflower was the classic though <G> MS "ymenard" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:1l7g5.53373$[email hidden]...

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> "Todd Sorensen" <[email hidden]> wrote > > Abraxas from Santana? Now there's a classic. NOT!! > > <Hands on ears shouting "LALALALALALALALA!"> > > > > -- ;) > -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> > -- May the Downforce be with you... > -- http://www.WeRace.net > -- People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't

realise

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> how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world. > > > > > > >

On Thu, 27 Jul 2000 21:24:42 +0100, "m.seery" <[email hidden]> wrote: >Your stistics are correct sir. > >I doubt however that Ferrari sell 1/1000 the number of cars that Ford do >every year. What point are you trying to make? Exactly. Mediocrity and lack of vision do not strengthen the breed. A few more mainstream releases like this one and the future for racing sims (as opposed to arcade racers) will be bleak. Most of the casual gamers who will buy GP3 based on hype an marketing will be severely disappointed, these are the same people who are running (have run) Need for Speed, MS Flight Simulator, Q2/3, Unreal/UT etc. Go and whack your copy of Q2 or Unreal (old games now) on your PC and see whether you think these gamers are going to be impressed by the graphics, game play, immersion and longevity of GP3 compared to these 2 year old titles. These people will not be lining up for GP4 based on this experience. It is the enthusiast groups like RAS that should be driving for innovation in games, the flow on effect is tangible. True, GPL was a sales failure but how do you think N4 which is heavily based on the lessons learnt from GPL will go? The fact that, as a community, RAS lucked in with GPL is a bonus the fruits for Papyrus will come in future titles. Simple question, would you rather buy a touring car sim/game based on the GP3 engine or the GPL engine? Regards, Anthony Bulloch

Aren't you comparing apples and oranges. Fords are mass produced for the general car buying public. Ferraris on the other hand are high end sport cars designed/priced/ and aimed at a very small elite market. GPL was created for the sim auto racing community. It was designed to be the most realistic sim to date. However, Papyrus/Sierra were counting on a selling enough units to at least pay for all the associated costs to produce and market it. Unfortunately, the sales figures (approx. 45,000 units) were no where near the required min number of sales. In other words they lost their corp shirts. I'm quite sure that everyone who has anything to do with producing a sim took notice of this. GP3 is already a commercial success. They had advance orders of more than 140,000 units, and sales that must be near 200,000+ already without the even the North American market. This does say quite a lot what the majority of the auto racing sim market wants, and even more important, what they are willing to pay for. If we could get a honest answer from Papyrus/Sierra, I'm sure that corporately they would prefer to market a product like GP3 then suffer the financial problems associated from GPL. Just look at the ripple down effect. We didn't get Nascar 3 with the GPL physics engine. They were hedging their bets. Making sure that the sim would be playable both on most computers, and easy enough that it would be a sales success. Now they are finally releasing Nascar 4 with the GPL engine. On the other hand, any chance of getting a current Cart sim with the GPL physcis engine was shelved. Joel Willstein [email hidden]

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> Your stistics are correct sir. > > I doubt however that Ferrari sell 1/1000 the number of cars that Ford do > every year. What point are you trying to make? > > MS > "Douglas Ellison" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:8lq5gc$1q2$[email hidden]... > > Going on what I've seen mentioned within this char-grilled threads > (that'll > > be all the excessive flaming) - correct me if I'm wrong but... > > > > GP3 pre orders are something like 150,000 copies. > > > > GPL's total sales over a period of (what, 18 months or so) is about 1/4

of

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> > that figure. > > > > I'm not passing judgemnt - just a statement on the opinion of the masses > > compared to that of RAS. Justification, if it were needed, for a little > bit > > of rationalisation. > > > > Flame away - I really don't care! > > > > Doug > > > > > >